Is there any up to date info about troop complements for...

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Is there any up to date info about troop complements for...

Unread post by mech798 »

Garfish and Horizonts? It was all very nice that Palladium gave us the (singular) SDF-4 and the uncommon battlecruiser, but since its rather more likely that any PC's came from landed (or crashed) ships, I'd like to find more info for exactly what they carry.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Check the Robotech.com infopedia (its free and "official"), Art of the Shadow Chronicles book might also have the information you are looking for and would be more recent (granted here in many cases it just reprints the Infopedia)

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha ... ey=VES&id=
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

mech798 wrote:Garfish and Horizonts? It was all very nice that Palladium gave us the (singular) SDF-4 and the uncommon battlecruiser, but since its rather more likely that any PC's came from landed (or crashed) ships, I'd like to find more info for exactly what they carry.

Well, sure... the easiest and most accurate way would be to consult the OSM.

For a Horizont descent shuttle, that'd give you a normal flight crew of nine... six on the bridge, including two pilots, two navigators (port side), a radar operator, and the mission commander (starboard side), with a pair of flight engineers in the engine/dock section, and one pilot for the attached fighter.

The two assault pods are typically divided into two sections... the smaller, forward compartment contains 12 seats for armored infantry to sit in during reentry with overhead bins for weapons storage, while the storage area that makes up the rear 2/3 of each pod contains the Armored Bikes (Cyclones) for those troops and the various supplies (food, fuel, ammunition, spare parts) they need for the invasion. The rear section can also be used to stow a single TLEAD (Beta) in place of the supply crates.

So... in Robotech terms, that'd mean a single shuttle has a maximum capacity of 33... 8 flight crew, 1 escort pilot, and 24 infantry. Barring new equipment assembled wholesale from replacement parts, it ought to have 24 Cyclones of the VR-052 type with weapons and ammunition for same, and at least 24 sets of the Gallant/H90 personal laser weapon (one for each soldier) with rifle adapter kit, and probably a box or two of spare guns and enough ammunition to completely resupply each of the 24 soldiers three or four times.



Garfish-class transporters didn't carry infantry in the original... just supplies, and they had a bridge crew of four, probably two engineers, and nine fighter pilots.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

except that is not minimum crew, given watch requirements and the need for on the spot control of places like engineering. and in robotech they are interstellar starships with long range capability. which adds extra needs.

the garfish bridge has similarities to that of a submarine.. 4 stations on the bridge suggest 2x steering*, navigation, and gunnery. the bridge area has room for more stations farther back.. which would probably include sensors, comm, and flight ops, plus probably a captain and Chief of Boat. given the use of multi-function displays, these can probably be set up to swap locations in event of damage or malfunction.. so any of the stations can do any of the functions with just some setting changes.

engineering would have at least 4 people stationed to it at all times..
the weapons would have station watch of two people each. (even with autoloaders, you keep people on hand for immidiate repairs and observation in event of malfunctions)

each of those would need crew for 3 shifts a day.. so your looking at at least 50 people base crew before adding things like galley staff (which would be another 9 minimum, 3 shifts of 3 people), and medical staff (at least 4 people.. doctor and assistants)

add in the flight deck parts.. 12 pilots (9 planes, plus backup pilots), at least 12 ground crew (assuming automated assistance), and half a dozen logistical personnel for the whole ship.

so all together? 93. which is still less than the biggest submarine (the typhoon, which has a crew of 160 while being 1/3rd the mass and a third the size. (length is similar, but the garfish is twice as wide, and about 3x taller) the typhoon also does not need to use hot bunking.. while crew quarters are not very private (the regular crew have communal bunk areas, while the officers share rooms except for the captain), you at least don't have to share your bed with other's the way you do on NATO subs.

a crew of about 100 (tossing in a few extra people to bulk out various watches.. engineering mainly) isn't actually too bad. big enough to keep everything running, and in combat, the 'offshift' crew is in damage control stations, doing things like fight fires, seal leaks, carry wounded to the medical stations, assist with first aid, etc.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

glitterboy2098 wrote:except that is not minimum crew, given watch requirements and the need for on the spot control of places like engineering. and in robotech they are interstellar starships with long range capability. which adds extra needs.

This objection, of course, completely misses the qualifying statement attached to my post... and ignores the evidence of the animation and production materials in favor of unfounded assumptions.

If we're talking in terms of what's actually in the show and the art... then it's a bridge crew of four, possibly a pair of engineers like on the Horizont, and the nine pilots. Assuming three shifts a day and without adding an assortment of jobs that don't seem to exist on Robotech's ships, that's 27 people total. Not bad, if you account for the fact that most of the ship is just one big cargo bay. To make it accurate to one of the bits of off-model animation Robotech canonized, just add an extra six pilots.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually your the ones making unfounded assumptions.. just because we don't see them does not mean they aren't there, and there is no way that ships the size of the ones in robotech could function with just one shift of bridge crew and some pilots.

hell, in star wars we never see more than a dozen or so bridge crew and some pilots too.. but no one thinks a star destroyer has nothing but.
hell, this even has a lampshade hung on it by one of the novels..
“Really,” Wedge said. “I thought all you Imperial Navy boys were TIE fighter pilots. Every one.”
-lengthy description of the scene-
The man opposite Wedge, a long-time Imperial Navy NCO, if Wedge was any judge, built like Kell but even bigger and deeper in the chest, smiled at Wedge’s stupidity. “Now, think about that, Dod—” “I’m Fod. This is Dod. That’s Lod.” “Fod. Even an Imperial-class Star Destroyer only carries six squadrons of TIE fighters. That’s seventy-two. Even with relief pilots, you’re talking about ninety or a hundred pilots on one of the big ships. Do you think a Star Destroyer can manage with just a bridge crew and a hundred pilots?” “Well, I didn’t think about it, really.” The Hawkbat crewmen immediately around them laughed.
- another lengthy description of the scene-
Wedge continued, “So when it’s time to go home you don’t all just hop in your TIE fighters and blast off for space.” Rondle smirked. “No. I’m an unarmed combat instructor. Partus over there, she’s the one with the red face, is a navigator. That’s someone who tells the ship how to get where it’s going. Dewback Kord over there, he’s a ship’s mechanic. No, when it’s time to leave, we all hop in a shuttle and go up.”

Allston, Aaron (2011-06-28). Wraith Squadron: Star Wars (X-Wing): Book 5 (Star Wars: X-Wing - Legends). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.


trimmed for space.. wraith squadron pretending to be tourists, in a bar, pumping an imperial crew for info..
Last edited by glitterboy2098 on Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually your the ones making unfounded assumptions..

Er... you may have us confused. I'm the one pointing out what's in the animation and the line art, and you're asserting the existence of a whole bunch of people whose jobs are never shown to even exist, and a bunch of other people for whom design precedent from other ships of the same saga indicate aren't present.


glitterboy2098 wrote:just because we don't see them does not mean they aren't there, [...]

But the complete absence of evidence that they exist, coupled with design-related evidence that they do not (such as a captain and chief-of-boat) is a pretty solid argument that they aren't there.


glitterboy2098 wrote:and there is no way that ships the size of the ones in robotech could function with just one shift of bridge crew and some pilots.

Prove it... using actual evidence, not just your say-so. RTSC's own account argues fairly strongly against your claims here.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by eliakon »

Just because we only usually saw the Bridge Bunnies and Captain Gloval, doesn't mean that the SDF-1 had a crew of 6. It just means that they were the main cast.....
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

eliakon wrote:Just because we only usually saw the Bridge Bunnies and Captain Gloval, doesn't mean that the SDF-1 had a crew of 6. It just means that they were the main cast.....

Yes, but we see plenty of other crew including relief operators on the main bridge, workstations on the lower bridge tiers, and plenty of background crew on monitors and elsewhere. This is what we don't see in the art and animation of the New Generation for these ships.

It also helps that the SDF-1 is 1.2 kilometers long, and the Garfish is (correctly) less than 1/15th that size from the animation source material or less than 1/6th that size in the exaggerated (improperly researched RT stats). Because the Garfish is a tiny ship with a very limited operating role, it doesn't NEED a large crew.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

seto, burden of proof is actually on you, my figures, while obtained via different routes, roughly agree with HG canon and common sense.. big ships need big crews.

your the one making claims that run against the accepted, and extraordinary claims like your need extraordinary proof.. so your going to need something more than "well we didn't see them"
after all, absence of proof is not proof of absence..

and it seem hypocritical to claim that the SDF-1 has to have a big crew even though we don't see most of it, yet claim the ASC and UEEF stuff doesn't because we don't see many..
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

glitterboy2098 wrote:seto, burden of proof is actually on you, my figures, while obtained via different routes, roughly agree with HG canon and common sense.. big ships need big crews.

The problem with your contention here is that I have already repeatedly demonstrated in many threads that Harmony Gold's numbers are largely nonsense thanks to being fanmade by fans with a shaky grasp of math and spatial relationships.

Your argument has no foundation in logic or evidence... you assert, repeatedly that these ships cannot be operated with such small crews. Shadow Chronicles shows that for the falsehood it is... with a crew barely numbering a dozen souls operating one of the largest ships in human history with just a couple of people on the bridge and a couple more in engineering... and they still had a couple people just standing around doing nothing. That alone is sufficient to discard your claims as unsubstantiated, never mind your complete absence of supporting evidence.

The line art and animation for the Garfish's design show us clearly that the bridge only seats four. A design practice seen in the series is that the captain is not separate from the bridge operators on smaller ships... but instead occupies the station to the immediate right of the pilots. The two engineers is entirely conjecture, but fits with the very light crew profile we see for every ship of the New Generation and later.


glitterboy2098 wrote:your the one making claims that run against the accepted, and extraordinary claims like your need extraordinary proof.

I'm the one making claims based on actual evidence... you're arguing AGAINST the visuals of the show and Shadow Chronicles. Since your contention is that THE SHOW ITSELF (and the animation source material used to produce it) is wrong, a rather extraordinary (impossible) burden of proof rests rests on you.


glitterboy2098 wrote:and it seem hypocritical to claim that the SDF-1 has to have a big crew even though we don't see most of it, yet claim the ASC and UEEF stuff doesn't because we don't see many..

Perhaps you missed my point... we know the SDF-1 has a large crew because we can point to DOZENS just on the bridge, and dozens more just in the hangars. We know there are hundreds more from the volume of destroids and fighters it carries, and the number of other background crewmen seen doing everything from sitting idly around the barracks to doing something unclear in spacesuits during transformation to putting out fires in engineering and getting arbitrarily killed every time the ship is hit.

The Garfish-class is the exact opposite. We know small ships are very lightly crewed, because that's consistently presented in the animation. From the line art and animation, a Garfish is barely larger than a Horizont shuttle, and that has a flight crew of JUST NINE PEOPLE. Six bridge crew, two engineers, and one very unlucky escort pilot. We also know for an incontrovertible fact from the show that the Garfish has a smaller bridge than even the Horizont... just four stations. We know its internal space is mostly a massive cargo hold, because we freaking well see it in the series. We know it carries a specific number of fighters in the art and the RT version. We know in the RTSC version that most of the ship is empty space around the gun that replaced the cargo hold.

If we take these known facts from the series itself and put them together with the assumption that, as a ship of comparable size, it would have a similarly sized engineering complement, that gives us a normal operating crew per shift of six people. Eighteen if we assume a three-shift rotation, plus nine, twelve, or fifteen pilots depending on whether you believe the production art and OSM stats, off-model animation, or complete arse pull on Robotech.com that doesn't match the art it's printed next to.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:seto, burden of proof is actually on you, my figures, while obtained via different routes, roughly agree with HG canon and common sense.. big ships need big crews.

The problem with your contention here is that I have already repeatedly demonstrated in many threads that Harmony Gold's numbers are largely nonsense thanks to being fanmade by fans with a shaky grasp of math and spatial relationships.

Then what number do you suggest be used? Note that it needs to be an actual ROBOTECH source, and not from one of the shows that was turned into ROBOTECH (since as you like to point out they are different)...Nevermind the fact that by definition HG sets RT canon and other sources would be Fanon...

Seto Kaiba wrote:Your argument has no foundation in logic or evidence... you assert, repeatedly that these ships cannot be operated with such small crews. Shadow Chronicles shows that for the falsehood it is... with a crew barely numbering a dozen souls operating one of the largest ships in human history with just a couple of people on the bridge and a couple more in engineering... and they still had a couple people just standing around doing nothing. That alone is sufficient to discard your claims as unsubstantiated, never mind your complete absence of supporting evidence.

A single emergency operation is not the same as regular crew requirements.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by mech798 »

Big Maesrk ships can operate with small crews-- because they never have to worry about damage contorl, repair or crew casualties. Military ships do. I'm with the other ones here, the ships we see are operating with a flight crew-- but we never see who is in the engineering spaces, on the DC teams, or doing the thousand other things that are needed to keep a military ship operational, as opposed to a civilian ship that can fly from point a to point b, where it is certain to have a port facility. the Garfish's are specifically defened as a light cruiser which indicates long-term independent operations-- in that, the robotech crew levels of 57 are barely acceptable.

This is a major problem with the LCS class, which has been (rightly) criticized for not having sufficient crew for maintenance, and that's for a ship that is never more than a few thousand miles from port.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

mech798 wrote:
This is a major problem with the LCS class, which has been (rightly) criticized for not having sufficient crew for maintenance, and that's for a ship that is never more than a few thousand miles from port.

the navy has tried to fix that issue with the LCS by using much of it's modular mission space for additional crew bunk space to just add extra bodies to the crew. given they've not finished developing most of the mission modules it is supposed ot be using, this hasn't really cut into its abilities yet.. but it will, when they get around to actually funding the alternate modules. frankly, i wouldn't be surprised to find out they'll adopt the hot bunking scheme of the submarine service once they have more useful modules to carry, and need the extra space.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

eliakon wrote:Then what number do you suggest be used? Note that it needs to be an actual ROBOTECH source, and not from one of the shows that was turned into ROBOTECH (since as you like to point out they are different)...

The numbers I suggest should be used are, in fact, the ones I have elaborated upon in previous posts... for the very reason that they are based upon, and supported by, the visuals of the series itself and the show's production art.

Of course, Harmony Gold has repeatedly demonstrated they consider the OSM to be one of the most, if not THE most, reliable source of information... which would tend to support my position rather than one based upon unfounded assumptions about the logistics of a UEEF ship.


eliakon wrote:A single emergency operation is not the same as regular crew requirements.

Considering the epilogue indicates the aggressively tiny crew from the Icarus is the new crew for the Ark Angel... I'd tend to throw out any assumptions that a large ship MUST have a large crew. This is sci-fi, after all.



mech798 wrote:I'm with the other ones here, the ships we see are operating with a flight crew-- but we never see who is in the engineering spaces, on the DC teams, or doing the thousand other things that are needed to keep a military ship operational, as opposed to a civilian ship that can fly from point a to point b, where it is certain to have a port facility.

You're forgetting something... the Shadow Chronicles movie shows us repeatedly that a deck crew is actually not necessary to launch or recover fighters on UEEF ships, throughout the series pilots are shown doing their own maintenance, and we do actually see the engineering spaces of some ships in the New Generation. They're not big, and they're not heavily crewed. In fact, the number of people seen could be counted on one hand. We're on kind of a Star Trek level here, where things are so automated and computer-controlled that huge numbers of people aren't necessary.

Also, mind you, these ships ARE ships that can fly from Point A to Point B where there is certain to be a port facility... that's the entire point of fold drives. They can travel faster-than-light to the battle zone from their port and then return once the battle's over, either independently or by being taken in tow... which is exactly the practice we're shown and what we're told Liberty Station is partly for.


mech798 wrote:the Garfish's are specifically defened as a light cruiser which indicates long-term independent operations-- in that, the robotech crew levels of 57 are barely acceptable.

That's not actually true. The definition of cruiser only applies to the SIZE of the ship... literally all it means is that the ship is larger than a destroyer, but smaller than a battleship. In olden days, it would mean a ship to be used for independent scouting, raiding, and commerce protection. Nothing about the current definition of the word implies long-term independent operations. The Infopedia page says they CAN be used for a long-endurance operation if their cargo holds are stocked with supplies for the crew instead of supplies for troops in the field, but clearly indicates that's NOT the usual operating condition. :wink:
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:Then what number do you suggest be used? Note that it needs to be an actual ROBOTECH source, and not from one of the shows that was turned into ROBOTECH (since as you like to point out they are different)...

The numbers I suggest should be used are, in fact, the ones I have elaborated upon in previous posts... for the very reason that they are based upon, and supported by, the visuals of the series itself and the show's production art.

Of course, Harmony Gold has repeatedly demonstrated they consider the OSM to be one of the most, if not THE most, reliable source of information... which would tend to support my position rather than one based upon unfounded assumptions about the logistics of a UEEF ship.

This OSM word you keep on using. I am sort of wondering if your using the same definition that I am using. When I hear the word OSM I think Original Source Material. Which is the actual show, and the official materials that surround the show (such as official art books ect.) Which means that for ROBOTECH the OSM would be.....The show and anything that Harmony Gold puts out. If its not put out by Harmony Gold its not ROBOTECH OSM. It might be OSM for Macross/Mospedia/Whatever But its not actually ROBOTECH material. The fact that Harmony Gold chooses to use another shows material as their starting point does not make that material canon, nor does it make that material trump Harmony Gold's material. It simply tells us what sources Harmony Gold is using to generate their own material.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:A single emergency operation is not the same as regular crew requirements.

Considering the epilogue indicates the aggressively tiny crew from the Icarus is the new crew for the Ark Angel... I'd tend to throw out any assumptions that a large ship MUST have a large crew. This is sci-fi, after all.

Unless I am mistaken the epilogue does not say that the crew is made up exclusively of the shown main cast.



Seto Kaiba wrote:
mech798 wrote:I'm with the other ones here, the ships we see are operating with a flight crew-- but we never see who is in the engineering spaces, on the DC teams, or doing the thousand other things that are needed to keep a military ship operational, as opposed to a civilian ship that can fly from point a to point b, where it is certain to have a port facility.

You're forgetting something... the Shadow Chronicles movie shows us repeatedly that a deck crew is actually not necessary to launch or recover fighters on UEEF ships, throughout the series pilots are shown doing their own maintenance

The pilots are shown doing low level maintenance. There are several levels of maintenance for military vehicles (in the army its first shop through forth shop. The operator is first shop up to depot rebuilding which is forth shop). The fact that they can do first shop level does not mean they can do forth, unless you have some evidence that in normal operation, regular pilots perform all mechanical maintenance on their mecha?

Seto Kaiba wrote: and we do actually see the engineering spaces of some ships in the New Generation. They're not big, and they're not heavily crewed. In fact, the number of people seen could be counted on one hand. We're on kind of a Star Trek level here, where things are so automated and computer-controlled that huge numbers of people aren't necessary.

Huge numbers is not the same as zero.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Also, mind you, these ships ARE ships that can fly from Point A to Point B where there is certain to be a port facility... that's the entire point of fold drives. They can travel faster-than-light to the battle zone from their port and then return once the battle's over, either independently or by being taken in tow... which is exactly the practice we're shown and what we're told Liberty Station is partly for.

So your premise is that they are basically just mecha write large?
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by taalismn »

Actually, all the ships have large crews, but only a few of them actually DO anything. The rest are just slacking off, or were hired to boost the respective departments'/divisions' headcount for headcount boasting rights and budget-grabbing. Oh, and a fair amount of favor-granting and nepotism was probably involved as well.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

eliakon wrote:This OSM word you keep on using. I am sort of wondering if your using the same definition that I am using.

Yes, it would seem you're using a definition different from the common one... since Robotech is not an original series, but rather an adaptation of three existing shows, the term "Original Source Material" is used principally to refer to the production materials and official references for the original Japanese shows.


eliakon wrote:The fact that Harmony Gold chooses to use another shows material as their starting point does not make that material canon, nor does it make that material trump Harmony Gold's material.

Even Harmony Gold holds that the material in the show itself trumps anything else... at least in theory (they aren't so good at following their own rules), which is one reason they have historically treated the animation production materials as one of the most reliable sources of information. The animation production materials show us what's depicted in the animation...


eliakon wrote:Unless I am mistaken the epilogue does not say that the crew is made up exclusively of the shown main cast.

No, they do not... but the Icarus is not a large ship, crewed as it was by the Tokugawa's survivors, who were all able to fit into a single Horizon-T transport with room to spare before they "appropriated" a new ship (the Icarus) from Edwards' base and then had to appropriate another shortly thereafter (the Ark Angel). Though it's worth noting they didn't take the Icarus in tow... they left crew aboard it as well, to fly it out.


eliakon wrote:The fact that they can do first shop level does not mean they can do forth, unless you have some evidence that in normal operation, regular pilots perform all mechanical maintenance on their mecha?

Dedicated maintenance staff would not appear to be necessary, considering Skull squadron in RTSC was able to prepare, arm, and equip incomplete prototypes for combat all on their own in a fairly short span of time... and Lunk in the New Generation was able to maintain numerous cyclones and fighters in the field with zero access to a proper shop environment.

Hell, from AotSC, they're supposedly depending on Louie (yes, just Louie) for upgrades and modifications to their fighters.


eliakon wrote:Huge numbers is not the same as zero.

Never said it was... but if they can run an engine room for one of their largest ships with a half-dozen people or even less... that means even a large ship could have a crew of only a couple dozen or a few hundred, not thousands or tens of thousands.


eliakon wrote:So your premise is that they are basically just mecha write large?

I suppose that's one way of looking at it... the way I prefer to look at it is that these ships are not what you'd call traditional carriers and escorts. They're not really made for extended operations away from a port or out in deep space. They're assault ships. Boxes meant to move the maximum number of troops from your base to the front door of whoever you want to make dead along with the supplies to make it happen. That IS how we're introduced to them in the series... and being able to cover vast, interstellar distances in hours with fold technology makes it more efficient to maximize offensive capability instead of operational longevity, since an operating ship can just return to HQ for resupply and be back on the front lines in short order (as we see the Zentradi do earlier on).




taalismn wrote:Actually, all the ships have large crews, but only a few of them actually DO anything. The rest are just slacking off, or were hired to boost the respective departments'/divisions' headcount for headcount boasting rights and budget-grabbing. Oh, and a fair amount of favor-granting and nepotism was probably involved as well.

For me, this was even funner than it should have been since one of Edwards' chief gripes about the UEEF's administration was what he interpreted as rampant nepotism under the Hunters. :lol:
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by taalismn »

Seto Kaiba wrote:[
taalismn wrote:Actually, all the ships have large crews, but only a few of them actually DO anything. The rest are just slacking off, or were hired to boost the respective departments'/divisions' headcount for headcount boasting rights and budget-grabbing. Oh, and a fair amount of favor-granting and nepotism was probably involved as well.

For me, this was even funner than it should have been since one of Edwards' chief gripes about the UEEF's administration was what he interpreted as rampant nepotism under the Hunters. :lol:



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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:This OSM word you keep on using. I am sort of wondering if your using the same definition that I am using.

Yes, it would seem you're using a definition different from the common one... since Robotech is not an original series, but rather an adaptation of three existing shows, the term "Original Source Material" is used principally to refer to the production materials and official references for the original Japanese shows.

Okay, so you ARE in fact saying that you are not talking about ROBOTECH, but in fact another show. Check. Now I understand part of the problem, Most of us here are talking about ROBOTECH, so naturally we use that as our source, and not other non-Robotech materials.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:The fact that Harmony Gold chooses to use another shows material as their starting point does not make that material canon, nor does it make that material trump Harmony Gold's material.

Even Harmony Gold holds that the material in the show itself trumps anything else

-Do you have a source for that contention?
Seto Kaiba wrote:... at least in theory (they aren't so good at following their own rules), which is one reason they have historically treated the animation production materials as one of the most reliable sources of information. The animation production materials show us what's depicted in the animation...

*nods*


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:Unless I am mistaken the epilogue does not say that the crew is made up exclusively of the shown main cast.

No, they do not... but the Icarus is not a large ship, crewed as it was by the Tokugawa's survivors, who were all able to fit into a single Horizon-T transport with room to spare before they "appropriated" a new ship (the Icarus) from Edwards' base and then had to appropriate another shortly thereafter (the Ark Angel). Though it's worth noting they didn't take the Icarus in tow... they left crew aboard it as well, to fly it out.

Again lack of evidence doesn't prove a lack. We don't know that they didn't get more people (or that they intend to) nor do we know if those low numbers would be considered a critical plot point later ("we don't have enough people sir, we have to do something") So it doesn't prove anything.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:The fact that they can do first shop level does not mean they can do forth, unless you have some evidence that in normal operation, regular pilots perform all mechanical maintenance on their mecha?

Dedicated maintenance staff would not appear to be necessary, considering Skull squadron in RTSC was able to prepare, arm, and equip incomplete prototypes for combat all on their own in a fairly short span of time... and Lunk in the New Generation was able to maintain numerous cyclones and fighters in the field with zero access to a proper shop environment.

Lunk...you mean the 'certified bio-maintenance engineer? Who appears to have been a dedicated mechanic before he became a resistance soldier? That Lunk?

Seto Kaiba wrote:Hell, from AotSC, they're supposedly depending on Louie (yes, just Louie) for upgrades and modifications to their fighters.

Louie may design them, that doesn't mean he does all upgrades by hand. (look at Southern Cross for an example, the 15th certainly doesn't maintain their tanks, they don't even install the upgrade Louie designs.)
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Chronicler »

You know I like how they sized them in the ps2 game. Big but not too big. It could hold a decent sized crew, enough troops and supplies for a troop carrier, and can probably fill other roles like what RT set it out to be, a modular ship.

I'll have to smudge the numbers to get a better medium out of both OSM and RT for my altvers.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

eliakon wrote:Okay, so you ARE in fact saying that you are not talking about ROBOTECH, but in fact another show. Check. Now I understand part of the problem, Most of us here are talking about ROBOTECH, so naturally we use that as our source, and not other non-Robotech materials.

:lol: Weak, man... real weak.

What I'm dealing with for sources is the animation used in the "New Generation" saga of Robotech... it hardly matters that it's nothing more than slightly altered dialog slapped over the original MOSPEADA. These internal spaces are something we see in the animation... so too, are the people who occupy them. It gives us a good, reliable, irrefutable starting point.


eliakon wrote:-Do you have a source for that contention?

It's in the FAQ on Robotech.com. Haven't you read these things? That statement of theirs is one of their more bickered-about pronouncements... perhaps second only to McKeever's famous declaration that they disowned licensee-produced material from before the reboot due to poor quality and a lack of oversight in production in a Space Station Liberty interview.


eliakon wrote:Again lack of evidence doesn't prove a lack.

The complete lack of substantiating evidence from any reliable source for the claim that these ships must be carrying large crews in order to function is, in its own way, proof. Every depiction of these ships, even in the new material produced by Harmony Gold, shows that practically all the numbers given for these ships are BS, from their physical dimensions to their crew and mecha complements. Intentionally or otherwise, they keep ending up closer to what the OSM tells us for these ships... sometimes even lower than that. If you look at the formation shots from RTSC, a fleet that ought to have thousands of fighters if the numbers were correct only actually has about 400. (Estimation made easy due to the entire fleet being one core group and then the same formation lazily copy-pasted thirty times... something which is very visible in the HD edition.)


eliakon wrote:Lunk...you mean the 'certified bio-maintenance engineer? Who appears to have been a dedicated mechanic before he became a resistance soldier? That Lunk?

Considering that we don't know what the normal remit for a "bio-maintenance engineer" is... that does not really prove anything. Even assuming he IS a qualified mechanic for mecha, that he was able to maintain numerous fighters in the field for a substantial period of time without the aid of hoists, cranes, or any other specialized tools one would normally find for heavy labor (to say nothing of aircraft maintenance) is a fair indication that the maintenance requirements for these craft are low enough that it is conceivable a grunt could manage on their own.


eliakon wrote:Louie may design them, that doesn't mean he does all upgrades by hand. (look at Southern Cross for an example, the 15th certainly doesn't maintain their tanks, they don't even install the upgrade Louie designs.)

The text certainly seems to imply that he IS the one designing and implementing upgrades and so on... and when he was with the 15th is an exception, since he was not a "military scientist" at that point, but rather a grunt who liked to tinker on the side.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:Okay, so you ARE in fact saying that you are not talking about ROBOTECH, but in fact another show. Check. Now I understand part of the problem, Most of us here are talking about ROBOTECH, so naturally we use that as our source, and not other non-Robotech materials.

:lol: Weak, man... real weak.

How is being factually accurate weak?

Seto Kaiba wrote:What I'm dealing with for sources is the animation used in the "New Generation" saga of Robotech... it hardly matters that it's nothing more than slightly altered dialog slapped over the original MOSPEADA. These internal spaces are something we see in the animation... so too, are the people who occupy them. It gives us a good, reliable, irrefutable starting point.

No, it actually doesn't. When you complain that the numbers that Harmony Gold uses are flawed, because they conflict with another source, and that source is something that was CHANGED TO MAKE ROBOTECH then yes, it matters. These things matter because assumptions from the original show are changed for ROBOTECH. Those changes will have cascade effects. Thus they are different shows.

eliakon wrote:-Do you have a source for that contention?

It's in the FAQ on Robotech.com. Haven't you read these things?[/quote]
No actually I haven't I read all the ROBOTECH material out there. I have the game books, and the anime. Which would be why I ask for the source. Can you direct me to the exact statements location?
Seto Kaiba wrote: That statement of theirs is one of their more bickered-about pronouncements... perhaps second only to McKeever's famous declaration that they disowned licensee-produced material from before the reboot due to poor quality and a lack of oversight in production in a Space Station Liberty interview.


eliakon wrote:Again lack of evidence doesn't prove a lack.

The complete lack of substantiating evidence from any reliable source for the claim that these ships must be carrying large crews in order to function is, in its own way, proof. Every depiction of these ships, even in the new material produced by Harmony Gold, shows that practically all the numbers given for these ships are BS, from their physical dimensions to their crew and mecha complements. Intentionally or otherwise, they keep ending up closer to what the OSM tells us for these ships... sometimes even lower than that. If you look at the formation shots from RTSC, a fleet that ought to have thousands of fighters if the numbers were correct only actually has about 400. (Estimation made easy due to the entire fleet being one core group and then the same formation lazily copy-pasted thirty times... something which is very visible in the HD edition.)

We are talking about crew size here not the size of the fighter squadrons.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:Lunk...you mean the 'certified bio-maintenance engineer? Who appears to have been a dedicated mechanic before he became a resistance soldier? That Lunk?

Considering that we don't know what the normal remit for a "bio-maintenance engineer" is... that does not really prove anything. Even assuming he IS a qualified mechanic for mecha, that he was able to maintain numerous fighters in the field for a substantial period of time without the aid of hoists, cranes, or any other specialized tools one would normally find for heavy labor (to say nothing of aircraft maintenance) is a fair indication that the maintenance requirements for these craft are low enough that it is conceivable a grunt could manage on their own.

Or that they got lucky and didn't need to perform any major repairs. Or that they did such work off camera. Or....
When I was in the Military our contact teams would support tanks, APCs, and all manor of vehicles from just a Humvee with tools....as long as nothing major broke. But it was a trained mechanic doing the supporting, not a tanker. I see nothing to suggest anything different here.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:Louie may design them, that doesn't mean he does all upgrades by hand. (look at Southern Cross for an example, the 15th certainly doesn't maintain their tanks, they don't even install the upgrade Louie designs.)

The text certainly seems to imply that he IS the one designing and implementing upgrades and so on... and when he was with the 15th is an exception, since he was not a "military scientist" at that point, but rather a grunt who liked to tinker on the side.

Since I do not have access to the book in question I can't say if your interpretation is correct or not.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

eliakon wrote:How is being factually accurate weak?

Being factually accurate isn't weak... but you weren't being anything remotely resembling factually accurate, as I am in fact talking about Robotech.


eliakon wrote:No, it actually doesn't. When you complain that the numbers that Harmony Gold uses are flawed, because they conflict with another source, and that source is something that was CHANGED TO MAKE ROBOTECH then yes, it matters.

The visuals themselves were not changed in the editing of Robotech... with the occasional exception of minor cuts made to remove excessive gore or partial nudity (footage restored in the "Remastered edition" of the series), the brief insertion of Southern Cross clips into Macross, and the cutting together the episode "Dana's Story" from pieces of Macross episode 36 and Southern Cross episode 10. The "New Generation" was actually the most minimally-edited of the three... though now the only appreciable difference is dialog changes and tying Macross and Southern Cross together.


eliakon wrote:We are talking about crew size here not the size of the fighter squadrons.

The size and disposition of a ship's troop complement will affect the scope of the logistical support group that is responsible for maintaining it. However, in this case, it simply serves as one of many examples of how the numbers in the Infopedia do not stand up under even the most cursory inspection.

I mean, c'mon, this isn't even the worst of the nonsensical screw-ups in the Infopedia... not by a long shot.


eliakon wrote:Or that they got lucky and didn't need to perform any major repairs. Or that they did such work off camera. Or....

We know these fighters did sustain damage in combat... this was more than basic maintenance.


eliakon wrote:Since I do not have access to the book in question I can't say if your interpretation is correct or not.

Have you read Prelude then? Louie is shown to be one of a VERY small cabal of "robotechnologists" working in the research and development arm of Space Station Liberty.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:How is being factually accurate weak?

Being factually accurate isn't weak... but you weren't being anything remotely resembling factually accurate, as I am in fact talking about Robotech.

No ROBOTECH is the IP owned by Harmony Gold. They have a pretty cool website up called Robotech.com I understand where they talk about their property. When you want to talk about ROBOTECH, talk about ROBOTECH, when you want to talk about some other show, such as Macross, talk about Macross.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:No, it actually doesn't. When you complain that the numbers that Harmony Gold uses are flawed, because they conflict with another source, and that source is something that was CHANGED TO MAKE ROBOTECH then yes, it matters.

The visuals themselves were not changed in the editing of Robotech... with the occasional exception of minor cuts made to remove excessive gore or partial nudity (footage restored in the "Remastered edition" of the series), the brief insertion of Southern Cross clips into Macross, and the cutting together the episode "Dana's Story" from pieces of Macross episode 36 and Southern Cross episode 10. The "New Generation" was actually the most minimally-edited of the three... though now the only appreciable difference is dialog changes and tying Macross and Southern Cross together.

It doesn't matter if they didn't change the visuals. They changed the dialogue, and more importantly source materials for the other shows do not apply to this show.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:We are talking about crew size here not the size of the fighter squadrons.

The size and disposition of a ship's troop complement will affect the scope of the logistical support group that is responsible for maintaining it. However, in this case, it simply serves as one of many examples of how the numbers in the Infopedia do not stand up under even the most cursory inspection.

Two problems with that
1) The size of the ships compliment doesn't have to reflect the numbers of fighters (how many fighters does a modern aircraft carrier deploy versus how many crew does it have for instance)
2) The infopedia is written by the people that make the canon. Ergo by definition it is correct.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:Or that they got lucky and didn't need to perform any major repairs. Or that they did such work off camera. Or....

We know these fighters did sustain damage in combat... this was more than basic maintenance.

I don't recall them taking damage, but then again I haven't watched the show fully in a while, can you remind me of where they take the damage, and when they fix it on screen?


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:Since I do not have access to the book in question I can't say if your interpretation is correct or not.

Have you read Prelude then? Louie is shown to be one of a VERY small cabal of "robotechnologists" working in the research and development arm of Space Station Liberty.

Again false premise. Just because Louie may invent the technology does not mean that he will personally implement the technology.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

eliakon wrote:No ROBOTECH is the IP owned by Harmony Gold. They have a pretty cool website up called Robotech.com I understand where they talk about their property.

It's funny, because if you're aware of the legal situation you'll know Harmony Gold actually owns very little of the IP in Robotech. Almost none, in fact. They're using the material of the original three shows via the distribution and merchandising licensing agreement with Tatsunoko Production Co. Ltd., who is part-owner of two of those three shows, and owner of the third. Under US copyright law (17 U.S.C. § 103(b) if you care), a copyright on "Robotech" only covers the material not present in the original works (meaning some very minor dialog changes and overplot details are all of "Robotech" that they actually own).

So... that's another inaccurate claim on your part. How very distressing. :-?


eliakon wrote:When you want to talk about ROBOTECH, talk about ROBOTECH, when you want to talk about some other show, such as Macross, talk about Macross.

... and that's why we ARE talking about Robotech, a series which was made by making minor edits to, and slightly changing the dialog of, three unrelated shows. Both Harmony Gold and Palladium Books make extensive use of the animation model sheets and other production material from the original shows. That's pretty much what the new Marines book IS... not even art from the production either, concept art from the original show's development. :wink:


eliakon wrote:It doesn't matter if they didn't change the visuals. They changed the dialogue, and more importantly source materials for the other shows do not apply to this show.

It does matter, because my argument is based in large measure upon those visuals... the dialog changes are minor and do not materially affect any aspect of the ships besides their power source and the existence of a faster-than-light propulsion system.

To try to pretend Robotech is somehow a completely different entity from the originals is the deny the very fundamental reality even Carl Macek was not at all shy about acknowledging. It is distinct from what it was made from, but it is not separate by any stretch of the imagination.


eliakon wrote:2) The infopedia is written by the people that make the canon. Ergo by definition it is correct.

Also inaccurate. Harmony Gold's own stance, as voiced by their website, is that other sources that do not agree with the series are trumped by the series. It's right there on their FAQ.

Also, to be accurate, the Infopedia was not written by the people who make the canon. It was written by an assortment of fans whose research practices were sadly lacking. Of course, in light of Harmony Gold's stated policy on how conflicts with the series are to be handled, it doesn't matter a damn anyway. :wink:

In fact, almost every article contains at least two demonstrable inaccuracies... often more. Sometimes of a truly glaring and bizarre variety.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by mech798 »

The problem is that if we accept this, then the REF was incredibly incompetant-- I mean, how do you *reload* the alphas? Have the pilot get out and do it by hand? If they have such small troop complements tehn yes, aircraft can land and take off (presuming they have no errors, because all those deck crews you see on a Nimitz aren't there for decoration), but they sure aren't going to be able to rearm and take off again. Not only that, but what if the pilot gets sick? If you have only enough pilots for the fighters, then any problem with a pilot means one or more fighters ain't flying.

Considering that we don't know what the normal remit for a "bio-maintenance engineer" is... that does not really prove anything. Even assuming he IS a qualified mechanic for mecha, that he was able to maintain numerous fighters in the field for a substantial period of time without the aid of hoists, cranes, or any other specialized tools one would normally find for heavy labor (to say nothing of aircraft maintenance) is a fair indication that the maintenance requirements for these craft are low enough that it is conceivable a grunt could manage on their own.


We don't know how often they're in combat (in terms of how much down time) but granted, this does show that they are more durable than say a modern F-35. But, it doesn't solve teh problme of what to do on a warship when you have a full fightger group with dry guns coming in that needs to be turned around ASAP.

Now of coures, there's the fact that in New Generation, (the original)( they were intended to come back-- we weren't seeing an intersteller fleet, we were seeing the mecha version of landing craft and barges designed to land a force and then go home. This doesn't however make any sense for robotech where many of those ships were supposed to be engaged in a far flung combat.

Trying to reconcile the animation with the very real problems is difficult however we can note that A. the invasion *Failed* and failed hard, to the point that they were going to Plan B. Blow up the earth. (Makes you wish that Edwards had won). Given how personality driven the UEEF seems to be, my bet is that for some reason this was a move that Rick, et. al. backed and they managed to steamroller any opposition.

In fact, if you look at Robotech, there's one thing that is more consistant than any tech-- the absolutely HORRIBLE military leadership that is displayed by human forces. I mean, Leonard for all that he was horrible at managing his subordinates was far more correct than anyone else-- the Robotech Masters could not be negotiated with, and sending off the lion's share of the UEF forces wsa an insane decision that doomed earth. (Because if the Master's had shown up to face the earth with all the forces that had left, there may have been a decent chance of convincing them to talk, or beating them off before Zor decided to stop a plan that spread via seeds on the wind by "dropping real big rocks on it." )
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:No ROBOTECH is the IP owned by Harmony Gold. They have a pretty cool website up called Robotech.com I understand where they talk about their property.

It's funny, because if you're aware of the legal situation you'll know Harmony Gold actually owns very little of the IP in Robotech. Almost none, in fact. They're using the material of the original three shows via the distribution and merchandising licensing agreement with Tatsunoko Production Co. Ltd., who is part-owner of two of those three shows, and owner of the third. Under US copyright law (17 U.S.C. § 103(b) if you care), a copyright on "Robotech" only covers the material not present in the original works (meaning some very minor dialog changes and overplot details are all of "Robotech" that they actually own).

So... that's another inaccurate claim on your part. How very distressing. :-?

Actually ROBOTECH is an IP that they own. Now what that IP consists of is shared with Tatsunoko etc, but the actual 'robotech' what not is theirs (as I understand it). The stuff its based on they don't own, but the changed stuff that makes it 'Robotech' is theirs (stuff like protoculture etc) So its your claim that's inaccurate. (and if its 'another' which is the first? Please don't make slanderous accusations like that I am making false statements unless you are capable of backing it up.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:When you want to talk about ROBOTECH, talk about ROBOTECH, when you want to talk about some other show, such as Macross, talk about Macross.

... and that's why we ARE talking about Robotech, a series which was made by making minor edits to, and slightly changing the dialog of, three unrelated shows. Both Harmony Gold and Palladium Books make extensive use of the animation model sheets and other production material from the original shows. That's pretty much what the new Marines book IS... not even art from the production either, concept art from the original show's development. :wink:

That's what we are talking about at least. You keep talking about stuff from the source materials of those 'other shows' (the ones that HG doesn't have rights to wink wink nudge nudge) That stuff doesn't matter. It really doesn't because its not ROBOTECH. When, and only when HG says that they are making something part of the franchise is it Robotech. Until then its not, its part of 'that other show' I honestly don't know how to make this any clearer.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:It doesn't matter if they didn't change the visuals. They changed the dialogue, and more importantly source materials for the other shows do not apply to this show.

It does matter, because my argument is based in large measure upon those visuals... the dialog changes are minor and do not materially affect any aspect of the ships besides their power source and the existence of a faster-than-light propulsion system.

To try to pretend Robotech is somehow a completely different entity from the originals is the deny the very fundamental reality even Carl Macek was not at all shy about acknowledging. It is distinct from what it was made from, but it is not separate by any stretch of the imagination.

Actually it DOES change things. So yeah its relevant. The inferred purpose behind the ships changes, from inter system shuttles to inter galactic war ship....so yes it might just have a spill over....which is shown here by how in Mospedia the ships are small and have tiny crews, and in Invid Invasion they are larger and have bigger crews....

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:2) The infopedia is written by the people that make the canon. Ergo by definition it is correct.

Also inaccurate. Harmony Gold's own stance, as voiced by their website, is that other sources that do not agree with the series are trumped by the series. It's right there on their FAQ.

Your referring to this?
Q: What is the definitive source of events in the Robotech universe when discrepancies arise in continuity?
- Anonymous
A: The original television series is the primary source of story continuity for the Robotech universe. Subsequently published material (including The Sentinels) represents secondary continuity. All future works are based upon the core continuity presented in the original series, which can also be supplemented by material from secondary sources where it supports the storyline of the television episodes. Where conflicts arise, consistency with events of the television episodes takes priority.
Errors occasionally can (and do) occur under rapid production schedules, and some of these discrepancies can be found in even in the original television episodes - though these are usually minor. Such errors are corrected wherever possible in future published works with overall continuity with the television episodes remaining the final word.

These subjects are covered in more depth in the bibliography FAQs.

- Tommy Yune
Which simply says....the show is right, but that does not mean that anything that is not contradicted by the show is wrong. Ergo, if the ship numbers are not explicitly contradicted by the show, they are not trumped by the show.

Seto Kaiba wrote: to be accurate, the Infopedia was not written by the people who make the canon. It was written by an assortment of fans whose research practices were sadly lacking. Of course, in light of Harmony Gold's stated policy on how conflicts with the series are to be handled, it doesn't matter [edited] anyway. :wink:

Since the site is considered canon, and is endorsed by HG, then yes yes it is made by people who make canon. Also since you have yet to present any evidence from the show itself that the numbers are wrong, then guess what? Its not a conflict. If its not a conflict then it doesn't matter what you like or don't like.

Now if you can pull up something from the show itself (NOT from any supplemental materials, but the show itself) that invalidates the crew sizes then we can discuss if the HG conflict policy applies.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

mech798 wrote:The problem is that if we accept this, then the REF was incredibly incompetant-- [...]

To be entirely fair, there was already an enormous amount of evidence indicating exactly that before I ever raised this point.

Oh, the perils of adapting unrelated shows into a single entity...


mech798 wrote:I mean, how do you *reload* the alphas?

That's an excellent question... and we have absolutely no answer for it in any source, OSM or Robotech.

Neither the MOSPEADA nor Shadow Chronicles variants of the "UEEF" ship designs offers us even a hint as to a means of recovering fighters once launched. In the original, the Mars Colony forces weren't really planning on having to fall back to orbit, so the trip was expected to be one-way. That leaves the adaptation in a very sticky place, since there are no visible concessions to carrier recovery of an aircraft on any of these ships. No carrier deck with artificial gravity, no hangar to fly into in GERWALK, nothing. Hell, considering how tight a fit the launch tubes in the RTSC version are for the Alphas, we don't even know how the hell they launched those Beta fighters the commanders have in the movie.

The Ark Angel is the first, and only, one to have (if only in its rough concept art) any indication of being able to recover fighters... via two large landing strips on the dorsal hull (which appear to be using the Macross Prometheus approach... antigravity in vacuum over a normal landing strip).


mech798 wrote:If they have such small troop complements tehn yes, aircraft can land and take off (presuming they have no errors, because all those deck crews you see on a Nimitz aren't there for decoration), but they sure aren't going to be able to rearm and take off again.

I wouldn't be so sure... if Lunk can rearm multiple Alphas in the field without specialized tools, then it's perfectly possible for a pilot to do it in the field with the proper tools. Or it could simply be that, like we see in the Macross Saga a few times, the loading process is done by some kind of automatic trolley system (most visible when connecting gunpods to fighters before launch).


mech798 wrote:Not only that, but what if the pilot gets sick? If you have only enough pilots for the fighters, then any problem with a pilot means one or more fighters ain't flying.

Well, if the state of medicine we're introduced to in the Shadow Chronicles is any indication, they're medically on a level approaching that of Star Trek... healing broken bones seems to be no big deal, so it's doubtful a cold would be anything that would put a man off his feet for a prolonged period of time.


mech798 wrote:But, it doesn't solve teh problme of what to do on a warship when you have a full fightger group with dry guns coming in that needs to be turned around ASAP.

The more pressing concern at that point would be "how the hell do we even recover these planes", since no ship design in the original series after the Macross Saga had a visible method for doing so. As these craft are principally designed for an orbit-to-surface assault and close air support duties, they'd be better served to return to a ground-based staging point to be rearmed and refueled... though it's entirely possible (considering the almost impossibly cramped hangar spaces we see on the New Generation ships) that rearming is done by an automated system like the ones that install gun pods on VF-1s back in the Macross Saga. (It may be as simple as removing the external missile packages and replacing them with new ones, given that the line art indicates the missile packages can and do rotate along a fixed center axis.)


mech798 wrote:Now of coures, there's the fact that in New Generation, (the original)( they were intended to come back-- we weren't seeing an intersteller fleet, we were seeing the mecha version of landing craft and barges designed to land a force and then go home. This doesn't however make any sense for robotech where many of those ships were supposed to be engaged in a far flung combat.

That's more an assumption than a fact... these ships are repeatedly shown to be pretty much useless in a stand-up fight in space, both in the series and the RTSC film. Every time we see them with the upper hand, they're not acting like a carrier force in space... but as assault craft, delivering troops to the surface from orbit in overwhelming numbers. It's not exactly what you'd call a stretch to conclude, based on that, that these ships are designed to fight the same way they were in the original show... not as a battleship or carrier in deep space, but as a targeted, go-kick-the-enemy's-front-door-down orbit-to-surface assault platform for planetary invasion... which was, in the series, the initial stated aim of the Pioneer Mission (go kick the Robotech Masters' teeth in before they do it to us, per Gloval). It's also something we see manifest on the SDF-3 after its rebuild... instead of trying to be a space carrier, they stapled a pair of big damn dropships to it and prompted used those dropships to kick Edwards' teeth in.

A telling detail that supports this is how few ships in the UEEF are actually equipped to execute a long-range battle... the fleet of nearly four hundred ships seen in RTSC, supposedly the bulk of the UEEF's forces in space (if not the entirety, as the series implied), exactly FIVE of those ships were set up for long-range bombardment of an adversary in space. All of those five ships were recent additions to the UEEF arsenal... the SDF-4 was allegedly built specifically to incorporate the shadow tech advances for the 3rd Reclamation Force (meaning it's not more than a year old) and its four escorts, all of the new Shimakaze-class, are only slightly older and their bombardment cannons are new shadow tech systems fitted in that one year timeskip between Edwards' rebellion and the introduction of shadow tech ships. Prior to that, the only ship they had that had any long-range space combat capacity was the SDF-3.

That's the beauty of fold drives... they can travel to a distant star, get into a scrap, and be back in time for lunch. (Which, ironically enough, is exactly what they do in RTSC.)


mech798 wrote:Trying to reconcile the animation with the very real problems is difficult however we can note that A. the invasion *Failed* and failed hard, to the point that they were going to Plan B. Blow up the earth.

To be fair, they didn't fully appreciate that the neutron-s warheads were "blow up the Earth" rather than just "blow up North America"... they didn't even know what the blasted things DID.
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Re: Is there any up to date info about troop complements for

Unread post by Jefffar »

This is getting excessively heated for a debate about a 30 year old cartoon folks. Might be time for a few of you to agree to disagree and walk away.
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