Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by mech798 »

So we know the early generation of mecha have sMLH power systems. But what kind of infrastructure is needed for SMLH fuel production? What are you looking at in temrs of getting your go juice to your veritechs?
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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Since SLMH is more difficult to produce than Liquid Hydrogen, I would say the infrastructure is going to be heavier than that.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by guardiandashi »

mech798 wrote:So we know the early generation of mecha have sMLH power systems. But what kind of infrastructure is needed for SMLH fuel production? What are you looking at in temrs of getting your go juice to your veritechs?


without knowing the exact details....
you need a hydrogen gathering/generation infrastructure.
you need processing infrastructure to convert it from regular hydrogen to SMLH
you need storage and transport infrastructure (distribution would be included in this section)
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

mech798 wrote:So we know the early generation of mecha have sMLH power systems. But what kind of infrastructure is needed for SMLH fuel production? What are you looking at in temrs of getting your go juice to your veritechs?

Well, we don't know how they're achieving stability (or metastability) in their metallic hydrogen, so it's very difficult to say what exactly would be necessary to produce it.

The obvious part is you're going to need some kind of pressure chamber able to generate the equivalent of around 4-5 million Earth atmospheres (4-500 gigapascals) to exert the necessary pressure on an elemental hydrogen sample to get the electrical energy band gap down to almost zero. Or you'd need to have gravity control able to replicate the gravity and electromagnetic conditions of Jupiter's lower atmosphere.

Making it stay metallic is a real trick... one that modern science has basically no idea how to carry off, since we can't even reliably make the stuff, let alone get it to retain metallicity long enough for us to see if there's even a possibility of stabilizing it in its metallic state so it won't sublimate back into hydrogen gas if removed from the pressure vessel. Once it's been stabilized, you can store it in an unpressurized vessel at room temperature... though only someone with a stupendous death wish would do so, since it is somewhat explosive at the best of times.

The beauty of a theoretical substance like stable metallic hydrogen is mainly in its space efficiency. It lets you cram ten to twelve times as much hydrogen into the same volume versus slush or liquid hydrogen fuel (respectively). It's also predicted to release about twenty times the energy when burned in the presence of oxygen.

Where it runs aground is on the input of energy needed to create the fuel mass, which is almost certainly far greater than the net energy produced from it during the fusion process... unless they're mining Jupiter and a host of other gas giants for naturally occurring liquid metallic hydrogen (which they don't appear to be). The only real advantage it offers in most types of fusion reactor is that you get more elemental hydrogen per unit of fluid volume... it would be most advantageous in an inertial confinement fusion reactor, but that nominally requires solid fuel pellets.

(These logistical problems are likely why Robotech proper has declined to identify the fuel source being used for its fusion engines, though they will likely follow Macross's lead and go with either slush or liquid hydrogen if prompted... which is, amusingly enough, why the exhaust of most VFs is pink. Helium plasma in the exhaust.)
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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Seto wrote:The obvious part is you're going to need some kind of pressure chamber able to generate the equivalent of around 4-5 million Earth atmospheres (4-500 gigapascals) to exert the necessary pressure on an elemental hydrogen sample to get the electrical energy band gap down to almost zero. Or you'd need to have gravity control able to replicate the gravity and electromagnetic conditions of Jupiter's lower atmosphere.

Not necessarily, or at least if one is only dealing with pure stuff. Theoretical real world studies w/re to metallic hydrogen do show that Liquid Metallic Hydrogen alloys are possible with lower required pressures. For practical purposes though SLMH may be short hand reference w/o noting all the components that make it possible since they are only there to "stabilize" the hydrogen and aren't involved in the fusion reactor itself.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2764941/
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:Not necessarily, or at least if one is only dealing with pure stuff. Theoretical real world studies w/re to metallic hydrogen do show that Liquid Metallic Hydrogen alloys are possible with lower required pressures.

Lithium-doping is a cheat used to produce metallicity in hydrogen for experimental purposes, and LiH6 is not viable as a fusion reactant. If you want to use this stuff for sustaining a fusion reaction, you're going to want elemental hydrogen in a metallic state. (Though even going as far as metallic hydrogen is unnecessary and a colossal waste of energy.)
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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Seto wrote:Lithium-doping is a cheat used to produce metallicity in hydrogen for experimental purposes, and LiH6 is not viable as a fusion reactant. If you want to use this stuff for sustaining a fusion reaction, you're going to want elemental hydrogen in a metallic state. (Though even going as far as metallic hydrogen is unnecessary and a colossal waste of energy.)

It may be a cheat, but if it works for experimental purposes it might still be viable for normal use given that it reduces the requirements to make the stuff.

As far as fusion reactants, it really depends on a few factors. One the type of fuel your fusion reactor is using, a pure hydrogren based reactor isn't the end all be all of fusion systems. Plans call for using Helium-3 with hydrogren in a fusion reaction that will yield more energy than either pure hydrogen method, it requires a larger investment in energy though, but you get more out of it. So yes, LiH6 could be used as a fusion reactant directly IF the reactor is designed properly. Lithium fusion does occur in natural fusion reactors (stars, and they fuse elements even higher than this).

Second slightly more complicated, you could separate the Lithium out before it enters the reactor so that you are only feeding in hydrogen. Where the lithium would go afterward could be in stored for later recycling, or exhausted directly in some manner (either loose, or injected into the waste reactor stream for added thrust).

Third, lithium may not be choice material in RT for production of SLMH though, what it shows though is that doping of the LMH can reduce the required pressure to manufacture, which makes the infrastructure required some what less complicated since you don't have to generate the same intense pressures.

That Metallic Hydrogen is unnecessary I don't dispute.

Seto wrote:... which is, amusingly enough, why the exhaust of most VFs is pink. Helium plasma in the exhaust

In RT all the VFs have blue-white exhaust on a consistent basis. The only pink-ish exhaust that comes to mind is on Zentreadi and Invid mecha.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Tiree »

I have cheated in my games: Each veritech has a small SLMH generation system on board. It takes a week to produce enough fuel for 48 hours that the Veritech main capacity. Those SLMH Trucks that fill the Veritech takes 1 day to fill it's load capacity.

I also have SLMH and PC interchangeable letting PC Triple the operational life of SLMH machines and SLMH halving the operational life of PC Machines. And SLMH Fuel Stacks are basically PC Canisters filled with SLMH (it is why you have fuel lying around in grocery markets).
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:It may be a cheat, but if it works for experimental purposes it might still be viable for normal use given that it reduces the requirements to make the stuff.

Unlikely in the extreme, because of the physics involved... Lithium doping only helps artificially reduce the amount of energy needed to reduce the band gap to a near-zero value. The end result is not truly metallic hydrogen, and it's going to be considerably less viable as a fusion reactant because of the Lithium impurity, which requires a substantially greater input of energy to induce fusion in, or the usage of Lithium-6 and an additional deuterium impurity.

In short, it makes the process needlessly complex and reduces the viability of the fuel... lithium-doping has little viability as a fuel, except in combustion, and is more valuable for producing artificially metallic hydrogen for use in superconductors.


ShadowLogan wrote:As far as fusion reactants, it really depends on a few factors. One the type of fuel your fusion reactor is using, a pure hydrogren based reactor isn't the end all be all of fusion systems. [...]

Yes, but it IS what they're using in the RPG... I'd also say "and in Macross", but that stretches things a bit since Macross is using a fusion-like reaction that can only occur in 10+-dimensional space.


ShadowLogan wrote:Plans call for using Helium-3 with hydrogren in a fusion reaction that will yield more energy than either pure hydrogen method, it requires a larger investment in energy though, but you get more out of it.

Deuterium, not hydrogen... Deuterium and Helium-3, which mecha anime buffs will recognize as being what Minovsky-Ionesco ultracompact fusion reactors in Mobile Suit Gundam's Universal Century use. What can be done outside of hydrogen-hydrogen fusion is beside the point, though.

EDIT: It should also be noted that one thing Gundam plays absolutely straight is that while you can get decent amounts of Deuterium on Earth (0.0156% of Hydrogen on Earth is the Deuterium isotope), it takes considerably more effort to get your hands on decent quantities of Helium-3 (0.000137% of Helium on Earth is the Helium-3 isotope). The greatest naturally-occurring deposits of Helium-3 are believed to be in a gas giant's atmosphere, which renders the point rather moot... because you can also get large amounts of naturally-occurring metallic hydrogen from a gas giant's atmosphere.


ShadowLogan wrote:So yes, LiH6 could be used as a fusion reactant directly IF the reactor is designed properly. Lithium fusion does occur in natural fusion reactors (stars, and they fuse elements even higher than this).

Lithium's most optimal fusion arrangement would require the presence of a third fuel source, Deuterium, to fuse at an energy input suitable for energy generation. Attempting to just toss it into a fusion reactor and hope for the best is going to be rather wasteful... and would also make the reactor design a "dirty" one that produces neutron radiation as a waste product, whereas the fusion of elemental hydrogen or deuterium and helium-3 are "clean" reactions that produce no neutron radiation.
Last edited by Seto Kaiba on Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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honestly, purity is one of those things that i figure is the difference between the SLMH-V and SLMH-B.. with the "b" or battloid version not having to be as pure, given the extra space and weight for a a more robust reactor design a destroid/non-transforming battloid could carry. while VF's use SLMH-V because it is more pure, and lets them get away with less robust engines and less shielding. (i say less robust because impurities in the fuel are going to cause reactions that could damage/degrade the reactor walls and magnets, since they won't be as easily controlled by magnetic fields. this would mean higher maintenance and more common replacement.. something like a destroid/battloid could sacrifice powerplant performance for greater durability in that regard)

this would also mean that SLMH-V could easily be used by destroids/battloids, but using SLMH-B in a VF will reduce the maintenance lifespan of the mecha.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

glitterboy2098 wrote:honestly, purity is one of those things that i figure is the difference between the SLMH-V and SLMH-B.. with the "b" or battloid version not having to be as pure, given the extra space and weight for a a more robust reactor design a destroid/non-transforming battloid could carry.

Personally, I doubt there's any kind of logical rationale for the supposed difference between the two allegedly "different" types of stabilized liquid metallic hydrogen. Doping the elemental hydrogen with another element to artificially bring down the band gap is going to inhibit the fusion reaction and produce unnecessary waste for literally no gain.

There's no advantage to even having two different "grades" of fuel, logistically or operationally... unless the goal is to waste large amounts of whatever you're using to dilute the metallic hydrogen. If you can supply the pure stuff in quantities sufficient to supply your forces, why bother diluting it after production or doping it during the production process when all you're doing is adding unnecessary complexity to both ends of the process?
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Chronicler »

So is it more likely that they would produce liquid/slush hydrogen for their combat vehicles? And how would that change performance/operation time then instead of using SLMH?
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Chronicler wrote:So is it more likely that they would produce liquid/slush hydrogen for their combat vehicles?

Substantially so... since the only real benefit metallic hydrogen offers over slush or liquid hydrogen is that the amount of elemental hydrogen being stored in a unit of fluid volume is greater by an order of magnitude. The properties of metallic hydrogen are only beneficial for fusion in an inertial confinement fusion reactor, which is best suited to pellets of solid metallic hydrogen. By the time the first mecha were introduced in RT's timeline, making liquid hydrogen would've been something humanity'd had under its collective belt for over a century, and slush hydrogen for at least a few decades.

Liquid and/or slush hydrogen also carry the benefits of being significantly easier to produce... though both do need to be kept in cryogenic storage conditions (insulated pressure vessels).


Chronicler wrote:And how would that change performance/operation time then instead of using SLMH?

Well, that depends on the efficiency of the reactor... if they're actually achieving fusion in 100% of the SLMH reactant, then the operation time would be 1/10th to 1/12th. If they're not (safe bet) it would be a far less severe disparity. The disparity is simply because of the density. The same volume of metallic hydrogen is approximately ten times as dense as slush hydrogen, and twelve times as dense as liquid hydrogen. So a VF-1 with its tanks loaded with SLMH would weigh about 1.1 metric tons more than a VF-1 carrying that same volume of slush hydrogen.

(Unless, of course, you assume that these things ALWAYS ran on more conventional hydrogen fuels, then their operation times should be unchanged.)

The usage of conventional nuclear fusion is one of the reasons I'm inclined to argue that Robotech is, technologically-speaking, basing its tech level on MOSPEADA. Instead of generating the hundreds of megawatts per engine that the Macross VF-1 does by using super dimension spatial physics in power generation, the Robotech VF-1 would just be fusing ordinary hydrogen and achieving a clean energy output of 2-3 megawatts, peak output... which falls neatly in line with its substantially less powerful take on weaponry and other things.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Chronicler »

So from my understanding there is little change then? It all depends on how advanced their fusion reactors are by the time of the Macross saga and hence forth.

Another question I have is that is it possible that in future instilments (New Generation/Shadow Chronicles) they would advance study to actually create and perfect SLMH and reactors?

(sorry for the stupid questions, working on my alt project and this is really good points to consider.)
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Chronicler wrote:So from my understanding there is little change then? It all depends on how advanced their fusion reactors are by the time of the Macross saga and hence forth.

Pretty much... the efficiency of the generator at capturing the energy of the fusion reaction is going to matter more than the density of the fuel itself.


Chronicler wrote:Another question I have is that is it possible that in future instilments (New Generation/Shadow Chronicles) they would advance study to actually create and perfect SLMH and reactors?

Oh, anything is possible... though within canon it appears that little or no progress was made with respect to fusion power generation. Even in the RPG, the issue seems to be not so much how much power the reactor's producing, but the decrease in energy burden on the reactor caused by reductions in vehicle performance...

I doubt the UEEF would've done anything with fusion power though, since from their mission inception they run on protoculture... meaning the infrastructure to produce fusion power systems was probably lost along with the Southern Cross Army in 2030.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Chronicler »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Chronicler wrote:So from my understanding there is little change then? It all depends on how advanced their fusion reactors are by the time of the Macross saga and hence forth.

Pretty much... the efficiency of the generator at capturing the energy of the fusion reaction is going to matter more than the density of the fuel itself.


Chronicler wrote:Another question I have is that is it possible that in future instilments (New Generation/Shadow Chronicles) they would advance study to actually create and perfect SLMH and reactors?

Oh, anything is possible... though within canon it appears that little or no progress was made with respect to fusion power generation. Even in the RPG, the issue seems to be not so much how much power the reactor's producing, but the decrease in energy burden on the reactor caused by reductions in vehicle performance...

I doubt the UEEF would've done anything with fusion power though, since from their mission inception they run on protoculture... meaning the infrastructure to produce fusion power systems was probably lost along with the Southern Cross Army in 2030.


That is a good point, though why they would limit themselves to one (and very finite) power system? To me from reading the rpg protoculture does sound like a very efficient and "clean" power source, but I see it more fashionable for fuel for FTL engines or Reflex Furnaces (more power to break dimensions to create the reflex effect). Using slush/liquid hydrogen or even SMLH to power sub light engines and to generate electrical power would seem better, but at a lesser output than what protoculture can do.

Of course we are dealing with a fictional universe and applying real world thinking to create a suspension of disbelieve :mrgreen:
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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Seto wrote:The end result is not truly metallic hydrogen, and it's going to be considerably less viable as a fusion reactant because of the Lithium impurity, which requires a substantially greater input of energy to induce fusion in, or the usage of Lithium-6 and an additional deuterium impurity.

Of course doping the hydrogen with Lithium wouldn't he truly metallic hydrogen, it would be an alloy. Said alloy is supposed to retain many of the same properties, so it may still be thought of as SLMH for many purposes. Lithium does set a precedent though, so other materials (fictional or real) could also exist to do the same thing reducing the required pressures to manufacture SLMH.

While Lithium based fusion requires more input energy (I don't dispute that) the output energy will also be greater.

Seto wrote:Deuterium, not hydrogen... Deuterium and Helium-3, which mecha anime buffs will recognize as being what Minovsky-Ionesco ultracompact fusion reactors in Mobile Suit Gundam's Universal Century use. What can be done outside of hydrogen-hydrogen fusion is beside the point, though.

Deuterium is an isotope of hydrogen. My bad for being imprecise.

Seto wrote:The greatest naturally-occurring deposits of Helium-3 are believed to be in a gas giant's atmosphere, which renders the point rather moot... because you can also get large amounts of naturally-occurring metallic hydrogen from a gas giant's atmosphere.

Helium-3 is also believed to be accessible from the surface of asteroids and the Moon, both of which are well within mankind's reach in TMS saga unlike the gas giants. The metallic hydrogen in a gas giant will also be much deeper into the planet's atmosphere than the Helium-3 so there would be a quantifiable difference in what is required to access the two fuels.

Seto wrote:Lithium's most optimal fusion arrangement would require the presence of a third fuel source, Deuterium, to fuse at an energy input suitable for energy generation. Attempting to just toss it into a fusion reactor and hope for the best is going to be rather wasteful... and would also make the reactor design a "dirty" one that produces neutron radiation as a waste product, whereas the fusion of elemental hydrogen or deuterium and helium-3 are "clean" reactions that produce no neutron radiation.

I did say a properly designed reactor to handle Lithium fusion didn't I? I'm aware that simply tossing the higher requirement fuel into the low energy system like D-D or D-T isn't going to result in Li fusion, so if it would be done I would think they would design it to be properly to use the Li or seperate it out before entering the chamber.

Seto wrote:I doubt the UEEF would've done anything with fusion power though, since from their mission inception they run on protoculture... meaning the infrastructure to produce fusion power systems was probably lost along with the Southern Cross Army in 2030.

The UEEF still used fusion power systems in the Alpha, Beta, Condor, Combat, and Bioroid Interceptor (the last 3 use same equipment as on one of the first two), it is a backup system, but they still have to have some infrastructure in place to produce and support those fusion systems. At least by the 2E RPG. Probably even outside of it given that the AHR-15 from Southern Cross is used by the UEEF at SSL (Prelude comic), and the VHT-2 seen in L&W comic on the ramp from a UEEF Garfish (looks like its offloading, but it is possible it could be backing up).
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:honestly, purity is one of those things that i figure is the difference between the SLMH-V and SLMH-B.. with the "b" or battloid version not having to be as pure, given the extra space and weight for a a more robust reactor design a destroid/non-transforming battloid could carry.

Personally, I doubt there's any kind of logical rationale for the supposed difference between the two allegedly "different" types of stabilized liquid metallic hydrogen. Doping the elemental hydrogen with another element to artificially bring down the band gap is going to inhibit the fusion reaction and produce unnecessary waste for literally no gain.

There's no advantage to even having two different "grades" of fuel, logistically or operationally... unless the goal is to waste large amounts of whatever you're using to dilute the metallic hydrogen. If you can supply the pure stuff in quantities sufficient to supply your forces, why bother diluting it after production or doping it during the production process when all you're doing is adding unnecessary complexity to both ends of the process?


wow.. assumptions much? i never said they were diluting stuff or doping.

i just said purity would be a difference.

basically, when they make the stuff, the resulting batches would be of varying purity.. due to the complexities of the material. and that they'd test the output to determine the purity.
within one range of purity, you'd have SLMH-V, high enough purity to use in VF's safely. in a range below that, you'd have SLMH-B, good enough for battloids but not quite enough for VF's.
presumably there would also be other ranges as well, including possibly a 'commercial' grade good for non-fusion work (like chemical rockets, plasma remass, burning as aircraft or vehicle fuel, etc)


and there is a big difference in using SLMH vs hydrogen slush. hydrogen slush is a cryogenic fuel.. which means a lot of active power draining storage systems and fuel transfer piping and pumps made from exotic materials able to handle extreme cold, both on the mecha and on the ships. a real hassle.

while SLMH is room temp stable, and while highly flammible, the systems to store it and transfer it would not be that much different than the gear currently used for jetfuel.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Jefffar »

It reminds me of how the Su-25 is built to run on jet fuel it can get adequate performance on the same diesel the Russian army uses in its tanks, though you need to overhaul the engines after almost every flight to keep them working if you are running on diesel.

So a more expensive and better quality SLMH for Veritechs that need it and a cheaper and more available SLMH for the batloids that don't. You can run both off either, but you get the best results off the fuel the type was built for.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Chronicler wrote:That is a good point, though why they would limit themselves to one (and very finite) power system?

That'll always be a recurring plot hole... just the nature of the beast.




ShadowLogan wrote:Lithium does set a precedent though, so other materials (fictional or real) could also exist to do the same thing reducing the required pressures to manufacture SLMH.

That's a question for the chemists... but from everything I can find, the short list of substances that could do that is very short indeed, and mostly confined to alkali metals.


ShadowLogan wrote:Deuterium is an isotope of hydrogen. My bad for being imprecise.

Considering the sheer number of proposed alternatives for nuclear fusion reactants in real-world physics, it pays to be precise... though the options for purely aneutronic fusion are more limited, which does narrow it down a bit, since the planet has already taken a few too many for the team by that point.


ShadowLogan wrote:Helium-3 is also believed to be accessible from the surface of asteroids and the Moon, both of which are well within mankind's reach in TMS saga unlike the gas giants.

Not in concentrations anywhere near as great as those in the atmosphere of gas giants... but definitely more common than it is in Earth's crust and atmosphere.


ShadowLogan wrote:The UEEF still used fusion power systems in the Alpha, Beta, Condor, Combat, and Bioroid Interceptor (the last 3 use same equipment as on one of the first two), it is a backup system, but they still have to have some infrastructure in place to produce and support those fusion systems.

's why my previous post made an effort to differentiate between the canon and RPG takes on this.




glitterboy2098 wrote:i just said purity would be a difference.

There's no logical reason for impurities to exist... since these are said to be reactors using stabilized liquid metallic hydrogen, rather than metallic alloys of hydrogen and alkali metals. By definition, SLMH would be more or less pure elemental hydrogen unless some other additive were introduced AFTER stabilization was achieved. Trace impurities will exist, but not enough to be noticeable in the fusion process.

Introducing a sufficient level of impurities into the fuel to make a difference (like Lithium doping) would take extra, intentional steps above and beyond what it would take to simply do the job right.


glitterboy2098 wrote:and there is a big difference in using SLMH vs hydrogen slush. hydrogen slush is a cryogenic fuel.. which means a lot of active power draining storage systems and fuel transfer piping and pumps made from exotic materials able to handle extreme cold, both on the mecha and on the ships. a real hassle.

The difference is only in where the complexity lies... you need an enormous input of energy and substantial ultra-high-pressure chambers to induce metallicity in hydrogen, plus unknown technologies necessary for a batch of metallic hydrogen to retain its metallicity after the pressure is released. You need special handling and safety measures as well, to account for the fact that any handling of the stuff amounts to working with something considerably nastier and more reactive than many hydrocarbon-based fuels.

By comparison, the technology involved in producing liquid or slush hydrogen fuel is actually fairly simple... and requires relatively little input of energy. The pressures involved are only in the dozens of atmospheres, rather than the MILLIONS, and the insulation and cooling technologies needed to store vast quantities of a cryogenic fuel have been well within our grasp for decades and require relatively little energy... and would likely benefit immensely from the advanced composites made available with alien technology. Ships could also leverage regenerative cooling to further reduce the energy footprint necessary to store the stuff.

Also, speaking from firsthand, professional experience... refueling systems for handling cryofuels will not be noticeably more complex for the end user than your modern gas station's pumps for hydrocarbons or a DC Fast Charge EVSE for battery-electric vehicles.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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Seto wrote:That's a question for the chemists... but from everything I can find, the short list of substances that could do that is very short indeed, and mostly confined to alkali metals.

True, but given PCs macguffin ability for a variety of roles, I see no reason that SLMH could not be used in the fictional sense. It would allow a finite supply of PC to be stretched further.

Seto wrote:There's no logical reason for impurities to exist... since these are said to be reactors using stabilized liquid metallic hydrogen, rather than metallic alloys of hydrogen and alkali metals. By definition, SLMH would be more or less pure elemental hydrogen unless some other additive were introduced AFTER stabilization was achieved. Trace impurities will exist, but not enough to be noticeable in the fusion process.

A. You are assuming that non-required substances can't be filtered out before being fed into the reactor
B. You are assuming that these impurities are negative in effects. They might have some benefit at certain point(s) in the life cycle of the fuel (creation to use). Example in Rocket engines that use Liquid Oxygen as the oxidizer, if that LO contains Florine (IIRC) it will improve performance when combusted with the fuel.
C. The variations might exist so that various platforms can make better use of the fuel or for storage considerations. SLMH-V and SLMH-B types both ended up on platforms with endurance figures much better than regular SLMH (and these are typically bigger). While it can be an indication of better fuel economy, it could also indicate better energy density, or some combination of the two.
D. We are assuming that the SLMH is used directly in the energy systems, when it may simply be the storage medium for the fuel and it phase changes just before being fed into the "generator".
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:A. You are assuming that non-required substances can't be filtered out before being fed into the reactor

See "unnecessary complexity".


ShadowLogan wrote:B. You are assuming that these impurities are negative in effects. They might have some benefit at certain point(s) in the life cycle of the fuel (creation to use).

No evidence of such impurities exists in what little material mentions SLMH... they don't qualify it as an alloy with Lithium or other alkali metals.


ShadowLogan wrote:Example in Rocket engines that use Liquid Oxygen as the oxidizer, if that LO contains Florine (IIRC) it will improve performance when combusted with the fuel.

That's combustion, different ball game entirely.


ShadowLogan wrote:C. The variations might exist so that various platforms can make better use of the fuel or for storage considerations.

Doping or dilution is only going to reduce the operational lifespan and add complexity.


ShadowLogan wrote:D. We are assuming that the SLMH is used directly in the energy systems, when it may simply be the storage medium for the fuel and it phase changes just before being fed into the "generator".

That would seem to be what the text of the RPG indicates... they do say that the reactors are directly consuming SLMH.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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The biggest issue is the simplest one-- if say you can make SMLH out of a large semi-truck or shipping container, then teh resistance can make use of it if they're lucky. If however, an SMLH "refinery" is the same size as say a modern industrial refinery then it's likely that there are a lot of shiny mechs that are useless for want of power.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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i have it require a fairly large facility.. but after the invid arrive the moon bases have the gear to make it, and they would drop supplies to the resistance to try and keep them supplied early in the occupation. it wouldn't be too hard to manufacture aeroshells and rockets using lunar resources, which would allow for 'care packages' to dropped off to places on earth to keep the resistance supplied with amounts of SLMH, munitions, and parts.. though never enough to make scrounging and careful husbanding of the supplies unneeded.

communications with the moon bases would be fairly simple.. pretty much every VF (in the RPG at least) has a laser comm with the range to reach the moon during most of the year (and thanks to spread over the distance, aiming it would not have to be quite as precise as you'd think), while the moon could just use more powerful radio's to send coded messages back.

it could be even easier if they were dropping comm sats into earth orbit every so often.. letting resistance groups with some of the longer range radio's to make contact via a relay.. radio to orbit, then laser to the moon.... though obviously with all the debris and invid patrols, sats might not be able to stay unnoticed for more than a few months at a time.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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Seto wrote:See "unnecessary complexity".

Depends if the added complexity is worth the cost though. Having a different grade of fuel might be worth the overall cost if the benefits to using the setup outweigh the costs.

Seto wrote:No evidence of such impurities exists in what little material mentions SLMH... they don't qualify it as an alloy with Lithium or other alkali metals.

And yet we have three grades of SLMH: SLMH (plain), SLMH-V, SLMH-B. So there must be some reason for the different types of SLMH fuels, maybe impurities should be in quotes since we don't know what makes each grade.

Seto wrote:That's combustion, different ball game entirely.

I think you are missing the point. It doesn't matter if its combustion or something else. The basic premise is that adding another substance can have a positive effect on performance.

Seto wrote:Doping or dilution is only going to reduce the operational lifespan and add complexity.

That it will add complexity in the overall life cycle I do not dispute. However, the examples of SLMH-V/B grades would seem to run counter to the idea that it will reduce the lifespan since they can operate longer than plain type.

Seto wrote:That would seem to be what the text of the RPG indicates... they do say that the reactors are directly consuming SLMH.

I don't get that impression since they really don't address the method of fusion being used so the SLMH could still have to undergo a phase change before being used in the fusion process.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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mech798 wrote:The biggest issue is the simplest one-- if say you can make SMLH out of a large semi-truck or shipping container, then teh resistance can make use of it if they're lucky. If however, an SMLH "refinery" is the same size as say a modern industrial refinery then it's likely that there are a lot of shiny mechs that are useless for want of power.

Depends on how widely spread the infrastructure was... SLMH should have quite a shelf-life, properly stored, and if it's trickled down as far as being burned in combustion-driven vehicles for personal use, there could be SLMH "gas stations" for civilian use sitting abandoned all over the damn planet, with their tanks still sloshing full of viable fuel stock the Invid don't even know exist.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
mech798 wrote:The biggest issue is the simplest one-- if say you can make SMLH out of a large semi-truck or shipping container, then teh resistance can make use of it if they're lucky. If however, an SMLH "refinery" is the same size as say a modern industrial refinery then it's likely that there are a lot of shiny mechs that are useless for want of power.

Depends on how widely spread the infrastructure was... SLMH should have quite a shelf-life, properly stored, and if it's trickled down as far as being burned in combustion-driven vehicles for personal use, there could be SLMH "gas stations" for civilian use sitting abandoned all over the damn planet, with their tanks still sloshing full of viable fuel stock the Invid don't even know exist.


True-- and depending on how it was created, there could also be refineries-- given what happens if something destabilizes metallic hydrogen, my bet is most production centers were far away from the major cities.

Of course the other question then arises-- if it's easy to make at all, and the RPG seems to state that it must be fairly easy to make, why did the REF use protoculture? It doesn't seem to have much in the way of advantages, especially compared to it's main disadvantage of only having (one) poorly understood source. It's not just used for mecha, but if you look at the RPG it's used for everything from mecha to jeeps (which wouldn't/ even need SMLH-- they could get along on hydrogen, be it liquid or gas).

It woudl be amusing if it's eventually learned that mankind's obsession with protoculture stemmed more from a "keeping up with the Jonses" attitude rather than it being outright better. There seems to be little other reason for abandoning SMLH systems, that worked perfectly well for Macross and Southern Cross designs for the UEEF forces.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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the UEEF was intended to be a deep space force, so their ships are already using protoculture. and they have a logistical network forthat thanks to their captured factory sat (and the others they are indicated to have captured in supplemental materials)

so logistically they are already using PC. so why spend a lot of volume on a ship carrying a seperate fuel supply just for the mecha, one that will be burned through way faster? (an alpha lasts a month on a few gallons of PC.. a VF-1 burns through hundreds of gallons of SLMH in a week. faster, in space since it is also its remass for thrust.) where a PC powered mecha can power plasma drives that can use less finicky materials for remass.
so it was a logistical issue for the UEEF.
the ASC however rarely ranged too far from earth, and most of their forces were stationed on it. resupply with SLMH frequently was easily posssible for them. (plus it meant that humanities finite PC supply they'd salvaged from the zents could be reserved for the UEEF's use.)

when earth fell to the invid, the UEEF and its mecha were about al lhat was left o humanities military forces.. so they stuck to the logistics that they already had.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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The problem with that is that the UEF never had more than one source or protoculture and they didn't have much-- not if the "one year to everyone falls over" timeline in shadow chronicles is taken as canon-- if anything that's generous since the estimate wsa given before the next war started.

I can't imagine any rationali military tying itself to an absolutely irreplaceable fuel source unless it provides a capability which quite simply doesn't exist anywhere else. Protoculture is a bit better than SMLH, but you can make SMLH without your (irreplaceble) Magic Box of Protoculture making.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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most of humanities PC was stored on earth.. which the invid ended up with.
what the UEEF had after that was what little remained on the factory sats (which were likely facing a similar issue as the master's motherships were.. it is suggested in the southern cross portion the master's entire empire was running short), and what the relocated/rebuilt matrix could produce..

and when the regis left earth, she took all of the PC in invid hands with her, leaving not much.. the haydonite attack took the matrix out of the picture as well.

so all the UEEF has to work with is what little they had stockpiled off earth. (and a good chunk of that was likely found on space station liberty)

the invid leaving the way they did and the loss of the SDF-3 were both events the UEEF could never have anticipated.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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glitterboy2098 wrote: they did and the loss of the SDF-3 were both events the UEEF could never have anticipated.



Actually they could have. They should have, because they had a perfect example of what happens when you lose your protoculture with the Robotech Masters. Any half-way competant military plans for the worst case, which is why multiple logistics chains is such a big deal since the enemy will always try and kill you by starving your forces rather than fighting them. (See: Ploesti/Allied Sub campaign against Japan.).

And the first questions you ask are:

1. How hard is it to destroy this resource.

2. Can we replace it?

The answer to those questions for the REF is:
1. Anyone who gets a lucky shot on the SDF3 (remembering that the setting has weapons that can one-shot even a ship like the SDF-3), or wherever our singular matrix is.
2. No.

Compare that to asking the same questions for SMLH:

1. Very hard because we can base refineries literally anywhere, since they use the most common element in the universe. Since that element is not rare, we can also stockpile obscene amounts of it.
2. Sure. Let a contract out for a new refinery or two dozen.

Again, as described, there is liteally no reason to use protoculture. The only way you could would be to argue that mankind had a way to make multiple matrices, thus making protoculture a no longer limited resource.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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mech798 wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote: they did and the loss of the SDF-3 were both events the UEEF could never have anticipated.



Actually they could have. They should have, because they had a perfect example of what happens when you lose your protoculture with the Robotech Masters. Any half-way competant military plans for the worst case, which is why multiple logistics chains is such a big deal since the enemy will always try and kill you by starving your forces rather than fighting them. (See: Ploesti/Allied Sub campaign against Japan.).

And the first questions you ask are:

1. How hard is it to destroy this resource.

2. Can we replace it?

The answer to those questions for the REF is:
1. Anyone who gets a lucky shot on the SDF3 (remembering that the setting has weapons that can one-shot even a ship like the SDF-3), or wherever our singular matrix is.
2. No.

Compare that to asking the same questions for SMLH:

1. Very hard because we can base refineries literally anywhere, since they use the most common element in the universe. Since that element is not rare, we can also stockpile obscene amounts of it.
2. Sure. Let a contract out for a new refinery or two dozen.

Again, as described, there is liteally no reason to use protoculture. The only way you could would be to argue that mankind had a way to make multiple matrices, thus making protoculture a no longer limited resource.


the only "good" reason I ever found for using the pc fuel canisters was "compact power"

bear in mind I am making a couple "assumptions" with that argument.

The first gen vf-1's and similar units, used to be fluffed as having a 10 year power supply of "fuel" additionally they carried a fair amount of reaction mass (obviously) and were ~50ft tall in battloid mode and their armor/weaponry was ... not all that impressive in a lot of ways. "head weapons 1-4, 3 missile hard points on each wing, 2 nose guns, and the big rifle/cannon/ gun pod,

the Alpha on the other hand was ~16-20 ft tall (about 1/2-1/3 the size) and carried a similar (or more powerful) gun pod, AND had 60+ internal missiles granted they were all srm's but that's still almost 5-10 times the missile payload. achieved by going to "battery packs" with ~1-3 month fuel/power supply, vs 10 year supplies. when you consider the loss rates and the fact that they thought they could resupply if necessary on a regular basis, in some ways it makes a lot of sense just like a lot of manufacturers now run on "JIT" (Just in Time) material stocks, aka instead of having 1-6 months of supply inventory on hand they only keep a few days to a few weeks worth of inventory.

this concept does reduce the "inventory" and warehouse requirements, but relies heavily on stable supply chains. which is where the whole argument for a military force IMO falls apart.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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mech798 wrote:Of course the other question then arises-- if it's easy to make at all, and the RPG seems to state that it must be fairly easy to make, why did the REF use protoculture?

Because plot holes.

(Seriously, there's no sane rationale for it when they could've gotten hydrogen literally anywhere and protoculture can only be made from a plant that grows on one planet in the entire universe.)
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by eliakon »

The only reasons that come to mind off the top of my head on why the REF used protoculture (and yes these are just wild speculation on how to make logic fit the needs of the show....)
1) they needed it for the fold drives so they decided to go with one fuel (figuring that if you cant fold your screwed anyway)
2) perhaps they didn't have the infrastructure (what ever it was) inplace in Triol to make SLMH (maybe it needed some cool gravity system, and no one actually sent them the blueprints...so all the SMLH plants are in the Sol system)
3) perhaps they actually have used it for some things, its just the spaceships and the mecha that are expected to operate for longer durations that use protoculture. (I.e. the forces for planetary invasions use protoculture, forces for planetary defense or internal security will use SLMH)
4) Perhaps they thought they were close to replicating the matrix (or even that they had replicated a matrix if even faultily) which combined with the captured supplies let them think they had time since 'we will have unlimited fuel anyday now'
5) they are humans? (note the finite supply of oil on this planet. Then note the speed, or lack there of at which human society as a whole is setting up to be ready for the point when that supply is gone. Then tell me why people in a fictional world, under a great deal more stress, who have lost most of their intellectuals are going to do better.)
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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The biggest issue is how much infrastructure we're talking about and that's an imponderable. SMLH, like any other artificial fuel is very energy ineffecient== the reason protoculture and RW fossile fuels are so cheap is that the hard work of making the power is already done-- you just have to extract it.

Now that doesn't get to the problme of why are you tying yourself ot an innately limited fuel reserve. There are two arguements to this: 1. they didn't think it would be limited, and 2. The entire bit about taking the protoculture away should be discounted. The last is my general preference for all that it directly contradicts shadow chronicles, but I felt that shadow chronicles wasn't very good in any case.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

mech798 wrote:The biggest issue is how much infrastructure we're talking about and that's an imponderable. SMLH, like any other artificial fuel is very energy ineffecient== [...]

True, though it would help considerably if personal vehicles were also using hydrogen fuel early on as they do in the OSM... plenty of incentive to build redundancy into the system if military technology bleeds over into civilian life the way it so often does in the real world.


mech798 wrote:[...] the reason protoculture and RW fossile fuels are so cheap is that the hard work of making the power is already done-- you just have to extract it.

That... may not actually be the case. I'm not just talking about the significant amount of work that goes into refining some types of fossil fuel (read: "oil") into something usable. We don't know exactly what goes into refining the flowers of life into usable protoculture fuel mass, but the few details we do know about its origins suggest it's NOT easy to make. The Invid Flowers of Life are incredibly finicky to cultivate, to the extent that Earth is supposedly the only planet in the universe that supports them at the time of the series. Processing the flowers into usable fuel is also supposedly quite difficult, since it requires some extraordinarily advanced technology that humanity may not be able to replicate*.

I'd compare it to refining gasoline or making tequila. Yeah, nature has technically provided the raw materials, but it takes a LOT of effort and mechanical processing to turn those raw materials into something usable. Gasoline has to go through an annoyingly complex refinement process with dozens of steps to turn it into something your car can actually run on. Making Tequila involves dealing with a ridiculously finicky plant (blue agave) that takes years and a very specific climate to grow to tequila-making age, they have to be harvested very carefully and particularly to avoid injury to the harvesters, and then the viable portions of plant matter have to go through several processes including soaking, drying, baking, pulping and pressing just to get the raw material for fermentation.


* Harmony Gold's leaked outline for the later installments of the "Shadow Saga" indicated that they needed to get Zor cloned back to life properly to get a new matrix built.



mech798 wrote:Now that doesn't get to the problme of why are you tying yourself ot an innately limited fuel reserve. There are two arguements to this: 1. they didn't think it would be limited, and 2. The entire bit about taking the protoculture away should be discounted.

I'm not inclined to discount #2 since it's a major plot point, but #1 doesn't make sense either because they KNOW they've thrown their one means of making more onto the front lines. They're just holding a massive idiot ball.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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Yeah-- I mean the problme is that if protoculture is hard to cultivate, it has no real advantage (far from it) other other power sources, UNLESS it does something other power systems just cannot do. Not do "less well" but cannot do period. Personally, I liked the idea that protoculture was needed for truly long range FTL, but there is, obviously, no support for that in the story.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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mech798 wrote:Yeah-- I mean the problme is that if protoculture is hard to cultivate, it has no real advantage (far from it) other other power sources, UNLESS it does something other power systems just cannot do.

Now there's the elephant in the room... from the Shadow Chronicles story arc, we now have reasonable evidence which suggests that protoculture power is not necessary to operate a fold system, which was the one last real bastion of "Hey, we need magic flowers to do that". Most of the alleged advantages protoculture offers over alternative power sources are from the RPG or other non-canon sources, rather than Robotech itself. The only advantage stated in official sources, and it is MADDENINGLY vague, is that protoculture offers greater energy density than "conventional nuclear sources". What's a conventional nuclear source? Hell if we know... they don't define it, but that's all we get. So all we have is a statement to the effect that a volume of protoculture produces more energy than the same volume of a conventional nuclear fuel source (whatever that may be). How much? We can only guess.

Now, that might sound like a statement that protoculture-powered mecha are producing more power than a fusion-powered ones, but that's probably not the case. The protoculture-powered mecha run on a set of cells about the size of 1qt oil can, which means there's probably about 15.15L of protoculture aboard a fully fueled Alpha fighter. A fully-fueled VF-1 that isn't equipped with any of its optional internal or external tanks, per the Japanese design notes, carries 1,410L of fuel... that's a whopping 93 times as much. It'd certainly explain the VF-1's far greater performance... it's generating a lot more juice than the Alpha, because it doesn't need to lug around a separate propellant supply and it has way more fuel storage to play with.


mech798 wrote:Not do "less well" but cannot do period. Personally, I liked the idea that protoculture was needed for truly long range FTL, but there is, obviously, no support for that in the story.

The Haydonites seem to have torpedoed that idea so hard the debris achieved orbit. They're mortally opposed to using the stuff, but we know they have long-range fold drives and other tech way ahead of humanity's.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

the key word being "tech way beyond humanity's".
humans don't have whatever the haydonites do. they have what they've learned to make copying robotech master's tech. and as we see with their little trip to earth.. if you want faster than light travel at an effective pace, you need protoculture. the master's crossed massive distances (depending on how you interpret "another galaxy" as their starting point, anywhere from hundreds (for the most near one, to thousands for the ones farther off) in a short time.. yet once they ran too low on PC and couldn't fold, it took them years to make a trip of a few light years on 'impulse power' (some sort of non-PC power plant or FTL drive, the dialog is ambiguous as to what it means exactly)

so for humanity, the zents, the masters? if you want FTL that allows the kind of rapid interstellar travel that makes interstellar travel worth doing, you need protoculture and PC powered fold drives to do it.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by eliakon »

glitterboy2098 wrote:the key word being "tech way beyond humanity's".
humans don't have whatever the haydonites do. they have what they've learned to make copying robotech master's tech. and as we see with their little trip to earth.. if you want faster than light travel at an effective pace, you need protoculture. the master's crossed massive distances (depending on how you interpret "another galaxy" as their starting point, anywhere from hundreds (for the most near one, to thousands for the ones farther off) in a short time.. yet once they ran too low on PC and couldn't fold, it took them years to make a trip of a few light years on 'impulse power' (some sort of non-PC power plant or FTL drive, the dialog is ambiguous as to what it means exactly)

so for humanity, the zents, the masters? if you want FTL that allows the kind of rapid interstellar travel that makes interstellar travel worth doing, you need protoculture and PC powered fold drives to do it.

So.....the Fold systems (at least the designs that the humans/masters have) HAVE to be Protoculture powered, even if the mecha don't have to be......The Haydonites may have another way, but we don't know what tech they use so we don't know if we can replicate it.....
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

glitterboy2098 wrote:humans don't have whatever the haydonites do.

Because they've never bothered to try developing their own stuff... they're full-blown Imperium of Man, subsisting off scraps of technical know-how from the greater civilization that preceded them. They're imitative, not innovative.


glitterboy2098 wrote:if you want faster than light travel at an effective pace, you need protoculture.

As the Haydonites don't use the stuff, it's more a case of "if you want faster-than-light travel at an effective pace, you need to produce energy of X quantity and protoculture is one way to do it". There's nothing suggesting that you couldn't power a fold drive by other means (indeed, that's exactly what the Haydonites seem to have done), the only problem is that you have two legendarily thick societies (Tirolians and Humans) building their entire technological infrastructure around a fuel source that's both horrifically rare and hotly contested, then acting surprised when having no alternative energy sources blows up in their collective faces (literally, in the Tirolian case).

It could be possible to power a fold drive with fusion... it's just that nobody seems to have tried.

(One of many reasons the Haydonites are probably the good guys this time...)
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by eliakon »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:humans don't have whatever the haydonites do.

Because they've never bothered to try developing their own stuff... they're full-blown Imperium of Man, subsisting off scraps of technical know-how from the greater civilization that preceded them. They're imitative, not innovative.

With out knowing how much farther advanced the Masters and Haydonites are its pretty unlikely that Humanity could just 'invent its way to catch up' in a generation. As for the 'lack of invention' Ummm....Transforming Mecha, the novel gravity weapon in Southern Cross, The Pupil Pistol, Janice......Hrmmm guess they CAN be inventive.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:if you want faster than light travel at an effective pace, you need protoculture.

As the Haydonites don't use the stuff, it's more a case of "if you want faster-than-light travel at an effective pace, you need to produce energy of X quantity and protoculture is one way to do it". There's nothing suggesting that you couldn't power a fold drive by other means (indeed, that's exactly what the Haydonites seem to have done)

You mean other than when the masters say pretty much 'dang we are out of protoculture, time to walk?' that suggestion?
Seto Kaiba wrote:the only problem is that you have two legendarily thick societies (Tirolians and Humans) building their entire technological infrastructure around a fuel source that's both horrifically rare and hotly contested, then acting surprised when having no alternative energy sources blows up in their collective faces (literally, in the Tirolian case).

It could be possible to power a fold drive with fusion... it's just that nobody seems to have tried.

Or it could not be possible, and the masters, in fact did have to walk because they couldn't power their fold drive with anything else. We don't know anything about the Haydonite technology, so there is really no way to speculate on if its just 'the same stuff only with fusion' or if its some other exotic technology.
Seto Kaiba wrote:(One of many reasons the Haydonites are probably the good guys this time...)

I am going to say that anyone who thinks that total genocide of races over bad fuel choices is a good idea....is probably not a good guy....just me.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Jefffar »

Do we actually know what the Haydonite power source is? Antimatter? Fusion? Souls of unborn children?
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Jefffar wrote:Do we actually know what the Haydonite power source is? Antimatter? Fusion? Souls of unborn children?


HG has been totally silent on it. the RPG lists it as "unknown".

i suspect if HG has even decided, they're keeping it a secret for when/if they make a shadow chronicles sequel. assuming they have decided.. for all we know, even HG hasn't decided what it is yet.

the assumption that it isn't PC is based entirely on their comments about getting rid of 'protoculture addicts'.. a statement which is itself fairly ambiguous.. why would they care? why would they want to stop PC use? if humans using PC is such a big problem, why didn't they provide a better alternative?

there are too many unknowns.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

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Jefffar wrote:Do we actually know what the Haydonite power source is? Antimatter? Fusion? Souls of unborn children?

No. Without more backstory w/re to the Haydonites and their hate on for PC-addicts its hard to say. For all we know they could think they are the only ones responsible enough to handle PC's awesome power, but they themselves use it.

Seto wrote:It could be possible to power a fold drive with fusion... it's just that nobody seems to have tried

Without more data on the Fold Drive itself though its hard to say. IIRC though PC is an active component in some past continuities with regard to Fold Drives themselves. If that is still the case Fold Travel may not be possible without it. That isn't to say that alternate means of FTL can't exist in RT.

However PC is supposed to have higher energy density that nuclear technology, which could require impractical levels of fusion to achieve (at least in terms of Hydrogen-isotope themed fusion). You'd need something more energy dense than conventional fusion (ie hdyrogen-isotope based), and its unlikely that PC is on par with MAMA or even Zero-PT (assuming 0-pt can even be utilized), so there are energy sources that could replace PC in Fold Drive IF Fold Technology itself isn't dependent on PC itself to operate (basically it would mean that PC in the Fold Drive is the equivalent of Star Trek's Dilithium Crystals in the Warp Drive, no Dilithium no Warp Drive).
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by guardiandashi »

ShadowLogan wrote:
Jefffar wrote:Do we actually know what the Haydonite power source is? Antimatter? Fusion? Souls of unborn children?

No. Without more backstory w/re to the Haydonites and their hate on for PC-addicts its hard to say. For all we know they could think they are the only ones responsible enough to handle PC's awesome power, but they themselves use it.

Seto wrote:It could be possible to power a fold drive with fusion... it's just that nobody seems to have tried

Without more data on the Fold Drive itself though its hard to say. IIRC though PC is an active component in some past continuities with regard to Fold Drives themselves. If that is still the case Fold Travel may not be possible without it. That isn't to say that alternate means of FTL can't exist in RT.

However PC is supposed to have higher energy density that nuclear technology, which could require impractical levels of fusion to achieve (at least in terms of Hydrogen-isotope themed fusion). You'd need something more energy dense than conventional fusion (ie hdyrogen-isotope based), and its unlikely that PC is on par with MAMA or even Zero-PT (assuming 0-pt can even be utilized), so there are energy sources that could replace PC in Fold Drive IF Fold Technology itself isn't dependent on PC itself to operate (basically it would mean that PC in the Fold Drive is the equivalent of Star Trek's Dilithium Crystals in the Warp Drive, no Dilithium no Warp Drive).

actually you can do a warp drive without Dylithium crystals ... the Dylithium crystals channel, enhance and otherwise make the M/AM reactor core work better. However technically the M/AM reactor isn't necessary either.

with the Federation they use a lot of M/AM reactors to power their starships because its a pretty energy dense power source. There was a ship that actually powered a warp drive using a Fission reactor, the problem was it took something like 2/3 of the ship to generate the power that a federation M/AM system would have done for ~10% of the ships capacity.

With that said M/AM reactors are actually a massive net negative power system (It takes more energy to generate, and contain the AM used) than they can ever hope to get back out of it. What they do is have Solar powered AM generation satellites in close solar orbits (cheap power) that generate the AM, then they load said AM onto ships that "burn it" for fuel

but I know I remember the Federation has a bunch of hi grade Dylithium crystal "mines" the Klingons have very few high grade Dylithium mines, but a lot of lower grade ones, the Romulans have very little Dylithium at all, which is why they went to Quantum Singularities to power their drive systems, because while it has its own (massive drawbacks) its a resource that they can use (effectively its a renewable resource)

the Federation has also built systems that use Trylithium, (highly refined artificial Dylithium) but that stuff rapidly decays, and is also apparently insanely Toxic
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

glitterboy2098 wrote:the assumption that it isn't PC is based entirely on their comments about getting rid of 'protoculture addicts'.. a statement which is itself fairly ambiguous.. why would they care?

The same reason they decided to exterminate humans in the first place, as given in Prelude... the marked tendency of those who use protoculture to go crazy rampage nuts and try to take over the universe.

'course, if one looks to Harmony Gold's outline for subsequent installments of Shadow Chronicles, it's pretty obvious the Haydonites don't use protoculture. Why? Because their little crusade doesn't stop at wiping out "protoculture addicts", what they're after is the extermination of protoculture itself (they fear it, but WHY is not explained).


glitterboy2098 wrote:if humans using PC is such a big problem, why didn't they provide a better alternative?

Would you hand a "better alternative" over to someone who'd marked a conquering army across your territory and given no small amount of evidence that they were dangerously xenophobic, territorial, and trigger-happy? I mean, seriously... in the Prelude comic, the Haydonites are straight-up HORRIFIED at humanity's reaction to being told that the warhead tech they pinched from Edwards was the most potent destructive force in the galaxy. Would YOU willingly hand over advanced power technology to someone whose reaction to being told they're in possession of weapons of apocalyptic atrocity was to immediately announce they were going to USE them? No. Not unless you were suicidally insane.

I mean, hell, look how uneasy people are about Iran getting nuclear power capability... there's no guarantee they'll use it to make a bomb, but everyone's still got their knickers in a twist. Imagine how much more unsettled the Haydontes would've been, considering humanity had already announced their intention to use apocalyptic WMDs on their own people.


ShadowLogan wrote:Without more data on the Fold Drive itself though its hard to say. IIRC though PC is an active component in some past continuities with regard to Fold Drives themselves.

In the rebooted continuity, protoculture's only stated connection to fold drives is as their fuel.


ShadowLogan wrote:However PC is supposed to have higher energy density that nuclear technology, [...]

... than conventional nuclear technology. SLMH is hardly conventional. Fusion may not qualify for that either. Exact words could make or break this, but thanks to the vagueness of the unqualified remark...
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by mech798 »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:humans don't have whatever the haydonites do.

Because they've never bothered to try developing their own stuff... they're full-blown Imperium of Man, subsisting off scraps of technical know-how from the greater civilization that preceded them. They're imitative, not innovative.




Well one reason may be that humanity first had the SDF-1-- which was far addvanced over our tech, but after the rain of death-- no matter what the final survivor count, I find it unlikely that you're going to count too many University physic's and engineering departments among them, or R&D staffs who would have been colocated with high priority targets.

So it may very well be that after the ROD, humanity simply had no choice in the matter-- that they were unable to put together the mass infrastructure needed to develop other technologies.

That doesn't explain the robotech masters, but...

The same reason they decided to exterminate humans in the first place, as given in Prelude... the marked tendency of those who use protoculture to go crazy rampage nuts and try to take over the universe.


Nopw THAT would be an interesting revelation-- that protoculture is somehow incompatible with humanoid's. The robotech masters, were called evil--but seriously, they *destroyed* the only source of their flower, leaving them hostage to Zor's fate. That's not evil, that's *insane*. Humanity goes from trying to integrate the zentreadi to building super weapons to destroy their homeworld... What if protoculture has some long-term and insideous effect on those who use it, an effect that the Haydonites, being inorganic are immune to, but nonetheless terrified of.

It explains why they want to get rid of protoculture completely-- a universe full of protoculture will unavoidably turn into a universe full of insane warlords. And it explains the regess' decision and the Invid's hostility to others using the flower of life. It's not just because ti's theirs, but because anyone who uses it is sooner or later going to become a crazy lunatic...
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

or you know, it could just be perfectly normal "power corrupts".. you know, like how having super advanced technology has given a bunch of glorified toasters the idea they can dictate what every other race in the universe can and cannot do.
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Re: Infrastructure needed for SMLH

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

glitterboy2098 wrote:or you know, it could just be perfectly normal "power corrupts".. you know, like how having super advanced technology has given a bunch of glorified toasters the idea they can dictate what every other race in the universe can and cannot do.

Eh... depends on whether the Haydonites had the same unpleasant history as they did in the old version of the lore, wherein their home planet had already suffered two previous invasions and occupations at the hands of crazy despots with a lust for protoculture. It would certainly make sense for them to fear humanity for the reasons they espouse in Prelude (that humans were setting themselves up to follow in the footsteps of the Robotech Masters) if they'd already suffered at the hands of the Robotech Masters and the Invid Regent.

What's hinted at in RTSC and AotSC is that the Haydonites have seen protoculture as something obscenely dangerous for a VERY long time, apparently having launched a preemptive strike against the Invid's original homeworld because of it.

Just from what we know of their motivations, it seems like a safe bet this isn't just a case of the Haydonites getting carried away with their own power... since, from their remarks in Prelude, they seem to be worried about ending up being invaded and either conquered or wiped out by a second Robotech Empire.
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