Fold drives explained!

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Tim Wing
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Fold drives explained!

Unread post by Tim Wing »

Okay, this total pseudo science, but it is based on actual astro-physical theories.... sort of.

http://www.robotechillustrated.com/all- ... vsd-drive/

Here is the actual text as well:

EXPLANATION OF THE SUPER-LIGHT-VELOCITY SPATIAL DISPLACEMENT DRIVE (SLVSD DRIVE)

by Tim Wing

The Super-light-velocity Spatial Displacement Drive (SlvSD Drive), or the Fold Drive as it is commonly called, is a Tirolian Faster than Light (FTL) propulsion system first developed around the year 1000 AD. The Tirolians were the first race in their local group to develop FTL travel.

History:

In the year 872 AD, Rilac physicists on Tirol had just come to terms with super dimension spatial theory. This same theory was postulated over a thousand years later on Earth as the ADD model, also called the “model with large extra dimensions.” Super Dimension Space was a model framework that attempted to explain the weakness of gravity relative to the other forces. This theory stated that all fields are confined to four-dimensional space, with the exception of gravity, which propagates in several additional spatial dimensions.

In the year 901 AD, this theory was proven when physicist managed to cause sub-atomic particles in four-dimensional space to “swap places” with their equivalents super dimension space while excited in a monopole magnetic field environment. This led to the hypothetical proposition of swapping large amounts of matter into super dimension space in order to travel faster than light. This was merely a theory, since it was not known at the time if mater and energy behaved any differently in super dimension space.

In 994 AD, the first working SlvSD Drive was “successfully” tested. Successful in this case being a highly subjective term, since the test probe was never heard from again. However, it did show that large amounts of mater could successful be swapped for super dimension space mater. By 1002, a successful “Space Fold” was finally conducted when a test probe was swapped for super dimension space, and then an hour later swapped back into four dimensional space. This probe brought back with it a wealth of information concerning the nature of super dimension space, allowing physicists on Tirol to create a cosmological model for super dimension space.

Theory:

Super dimension space is, in layman’s terms, just one of several extra, large dimensions. The overall topography of super dimension space mirrors four dimension space, but there are no corresponding bodies of mass equivalent to those seen in the same “location” in four dimension space. All mater in super dimension space is subatomic. However, large masses in four dimension space, “cast a shadow” in super dimension space in the form of gravitational fields. Because of this, navigation in super dimension space must take into account the location of bodies of significant mass in four dimension space.

In super dimension space, mater and energy move at a uniform speed. When an object folds in to super dimension space, it immediately is traveling at this speed (known as the Super Dimensional Constant). Direction of travel is determined the object’s direction of travel in four dimension space at the time of fold in. Speed at time of fold in has no effect on speed in super dimension space since everything moves at the Super Dimensional Constant. Distance traveled is determined by the amount of subjective time spent in super dimension space before fold out.

The Super Dimensional Constant is 64,714,024,413,139.5 meters per second, as observed from four dimension space. In relativistic terms, this is 215,862.75 times the speed of light (these numbers have been rounded to manageable decimal places). To put this into perspective, a direct fold from Earth to Tirol (a distance of 1812 parsecs) would only take about 10 Earth days. A direct fold from one side of the Milky Way Galaxy to the opposite side (a distance of up to 37 kiloparsecs) would take only 200 or so days. However, single folds over such great distances are not possible.

Limitations and hazards of SlvSD Drive travel:

Firstly, given a perfect navigation solution, a direct fold on a modern Tirolian vessel, such as the Zentraedi Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class Fleet Command Ship, is only guaranteed to be accurate out to a distance of 10 kiloparsecs. And this is given a “perfect” navigational solution. Even the slightest variation in direction of travel at time of fold in can create massive deviations in path of travel in super dimension space. So, for example, if a ship is conducting a fold and a small piece of space debris nudges the ship slightly by +/- .000001 degree right before the moment of fold in, the ship could find it’s self massively off course 32,600 light years down the line when it de-folds. Worse still, its new deviated course could take it right through the gravity well shadow of a planet or sun, destroying the ship before it even gets to its point of fold out.

Additional variables are introduced by the proximity of other masses of mater. A planet, or even an object as small as another ship, bend space time. In some circumstances, it is not possible to estimate the exact amount of distortion created by a body of mass. When folding inside the curve of this mass, if the amount of deflection is not correctly calculated the folding vessel may once again depart on an incorrect trajectory.

Because of this danger, most prudent ship’s captains rarely make a single fold of anything more than 500 parsecs. An aggressive captain may conduct a single fold of two kiloparsecs. Only a mad-man would risk a fold of over three kiloparsecs. Additionally, most folds from inside a system only take a ship to the immediate vicinity outside the system, where a second fold is usually conducted outside the influences of gravity wells and intersystem space debris.

When traveling in super dimension space, mater experiences gravitational time dilation due to the increased gravitational forces in this dimension. The net result is an average time dilation of 0.004 percent. That is to say, for every subjective second spent traveling in super dimension space, 249.9612 objective seconds pass in four dimension space. The term “average time dilation” is used because if a mass passes within the shadow of the gravity well of a large mass in four dimension space, the increased gravitational force will dilate time further. Since the point of fold out is determined by measured subjective time while traveling, this can cause a ship to reappear in four dimension space well off course.

Additional obstacles exist in super dimension space known as fold faults. A fold fault is an area of increased sub-atomic mater density within super dimension space. When attempting to de-fold in a fold fault, the higher sub-atomic density can cause a geometric-progression of energy consumption: that is to say it will suddenly take a much higher amount of energy to fold out of super dimension space. If the energy requirement is greater than the energy potential of the ship’s main power source, the ship will have to continue to travel in super dimension space until it is out of the fold fault. This is known as a fold dislocation. In some extreme cases, it is speculated that the rise in required energy consumption can become so severe when passing through a fold fault, that a ship may no longer be able to maintain its monopole magnetic field. When a ship experiences a collapse of its monopole magnetic field while in super dimension space, the ship’s mass in instantly converted into its constituent sub-atomic particles.

For this reason, it is considered best practice to proof all point to point routes through super dimension space with a probe drone before committing to a fold. Of course, this is not always possible. Especially in the later years of the Tirolian Mercantile Empire, it was considered a waste of precious protoculture to proof new routes, so ships either stuck to well established fold points or took their chances when the tactical situation demanded it. The United Earth Expeditionary Force never took this precaution, being unaware of the prevalence of fold faults. It is speculated that the UES Pioneer fell victim to one such fold fault, and is presumed destroyed.

Way at the bottom of the list of hazards is fold sickness. Approximately one out of fifty individuals are susceptible to this condition, which has symptoms described as similar to that of motion sickness.

The SDF-1 Macross incident:

When the crew of the SDF-1 attempted the first Space Fold by humans, the ship’s Captain intended the ship to fold out on the other side of the Earth’s moon. Though a tactically sound decision, it was made out of a lack of understanding of the inherent limitations of travel through super dimension space. The first mistake was attempting to fold while the ship was traveling (falling) towards the earth. Though this was the correct direction, it would have sent the SDF-1 straight through the center of the Earth’s gravity well in super dimension space, crushing the ship like a grape.

Lucky for the crew, the curvature of space time caused by the Earth itself meant the SDF-1 was falling at a curving trajectory relative to super dimension space. This gravity well deflection effected the actual direction of travel once the ship folded in, allowing the ship to miss the center of the Earth’s gravity well in super dimension space.

The second mistake was the lack of knowledge concerning the huge amount of gravitational time dilation while traveling in super dimension space. The original intent was for the SDF-1 to de-fold well outside of the Earth’s Moon’s orbit at a distance of 18 million km (or approximately 18.5 million km from their position on the opposite side of Earth). With the Super Dimensional Constant being known, this gave them a time to de-fold solution that was 250 times to long. This, in turn, meant they traveled 250 times further than they intended to, placing them just outside the orbit of Pluto at its Perihelion.

It is still unknown to this day why the SDF-1’s fold generators did not de-fold along with the rest of the ship.
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Re: Fold drives explained!

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Tim Wing wrote:Okay, this total pseudo science, but it is based on actual astro-physical theories.... sort of.

*headscratches*

But fold drives have already been officially explained by Robotech's creative staff... they put the official answer out there years ago, and it actually makes reasonable sense. The fold drives in Robotech are a technology largely similar to Star Trek's warp drives. Ships travel faster-than-light by distorting three-dimensional space-time's curvature to push a bubble of artificially normalized space through space at faster-than-light speeds. They don't leave the three-dimensional universe.

As an issue quite apart from the problems with trying to shoehorn more Macross into Robotech, it would be a fairly significant and glaring plot hole for fold drives in Robotech to operate the as described there in your post. Dimensional shifting technology was presented as something new and novel to humanity shortly before the Battle of Reflex Point in the television series, which doesn't make sense if one of the most ubiquitous technologies in the setting operates that way. Shadow Chronicles further elaborated on the introduction of dimension-shifting, establishing it as a uniquely Haydonite technology that every other major faction believed to be categorically impossible (and didn't understand how it worked even after they had the Haydonites gift them with a seemingly endless supply of the systems).

(The absence of dimension-shifting technology in Robotech's setting probably also explains why some other technology from Macross doesn't exist on its Robotech equivalent mecha... for instance, in the RPG they explained the Queadluun-Rau's IVCS as a vernier system instead of an inertia control system.)
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Re: Fold drives explained!

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Seto wrote:But fold drives have already been officially explained by Robotech's creative staff... they put the official answer out there years ago, and it actually makes reasonable sense. The fold drives in Robotech are a technology largely similar to Star Trek's warp drives. Ships travel faster-than-light by distorting three-dimensional space-time's curvature to push a bubble of artificially normalized space through space at faster-than-light speeds. They don't leave the three-dimensional universe.

Which completely tosses out dialogue cues from the show that they leave normal space.
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Re: Fold drives explained!

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ShadowLogan wrote:Which completely tosses out dialogue cues from the show that they leave normal space.

Alleged dialogue cues that, in most cases, don't say anything like that... the most frequently brought up error being the "Orbital warp blast" in "The Hunters", where the actual description provided for the phenomenon is not at all unclear about the effect being the warping of realspace (to the extent of creating a small black hole).
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Re: Fold drives explained!

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But fold drives have already been officially explained by Robotech's creative staff... they put the official answer out there years ago, and it actually makes reasonable sense. The fold drives in Robotech are a technology largely similar to Star Trek's warp drives. Ships travel faster-than-light by distorting three-dimensional space-time's curvature to push a bubble of artificially normalized space through space at faster-than-light speeds. They don't leave the three-dimensional universe.


Can you reference this for me? I'd like to look at what they have to say.

As an issue quite apart from the problems with trying to shoehorn more Macross into Robotech,


Still, I think co-opting Star Trek technical explanations is even lazier than adapting Macross explanations... and makes way less sense. I would hazard a guess that Robotech is more closely related to Macross than Star Trek.

it would be a fairly significant and glaring plot hole for fold drives in Robotech to operate the as described there in your post. Dimensional shifting technology was presented as something new and novel to humanity shortly before the Battle of Reflex Point in the television series, which doesn't make sense if one of the most ubiquitous technologies in the setting operates that way. Shadow Chronicles further elaborated on the introduction of dimension-shifting, establishing it as a uniquely Haydonite technology that every other major faction believed to be categorically impossible (and didn't understand how it worked even after they had the Haydonites gift them with a seemingly endless supply of the systems).


Dimensional shifting and dimensional folding are two different things. Shifting emissions into "Super Space" at a constant ongoing rate would not be the same as an instant "one for one" mater swap into Super Dimensional Space.

Also, if the fold drive does not work by means of traveling through Super Dimensional Space, why is the Macross called the Super Dimension Battle Fortress?

(The absence of dimension-shifting technology in Robotech's setting probably also explains why some other technology from Macross doesn't exist on its Robotech equivalent mecha... for instance, in the RPG they explained the Queadluun-Rau's IVCS as a vernier system instead of an inertia control system.)


I'm going to break with the RPG here... I think the inertia vectoring system is quite interesting and quite necessary for explaining the agility of the Queadluun Rau. As for why the UEDF/UEEF never used it? Maybe it was as simple as them never being able to replicate it at a reasonable price? The Robotech masters were significantly ahead of us, technology wise.

Regardless, at the end of the day, I don't like the "Warp Bubble" explanation... Not totally down with changing the series name to Robo-trek.
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Re: Fold drives explained!

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Tim Wing wrote:Can you reference this for me? I'd like to look at what they have to say.

The infographic and explanation of fold drives in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles... said infographic diagramming the fold effect as the warping of local space-time ala Star Trek is actually in the Shadow Chronicles animation itself, which not coincidentally also depicts Robotech's version not leaving realspace when a ship "folds", but rather moving the "fold bubble" through realspace at faster-than-light velocities. This same effect was also repeated in the trailers for the canceled Robotech Academy series, but with an even more Star Trek-like presentation than it had in Shadow Chronicles.


Tim Wing wrote:Still, I think co-opting Star Trek technical explanations is even lazier than adapting Macross explanations... and makes way less sense.

Eh, not really. The Macross fold drive explanation, while detailed, conflicts with the Robotech plot rather blatantly and would just leave Robotech in the position of being exactly what most of its critics in the industry and fandom accuse it of occupying... that of the desperate coattail-clinger.

The official Robotech explanation provided doesn't contradict major plot points for Robotech in the way that lazily stealing the Macross explanation does, and it has the added benefit of being based upon something that our theoretical physicists are currently working on as our first, best hope for practical faster-than-light travel... the Alcubierre drive, which is not coincidentally very similar to the Star Trek explanation (because Star Trek inspired its developer).

So, it's not really laziness... it's actually giving Robotech fold drives a semi-tangible basis in real world physics. Neat, huh?


Tim Wing wrote:I would hazard a guess that Robotech is more closely related to Macross than Star Trek.

I would hazard a guess that not using the Macross explanation was a very deliberate choice on the part of Robotech's creative staff... both because they'd very much like to have Robotech be its own TV series and not just a commercialized Macross fanfic, and because they've got to be very careful when it comes to the use of material from the Japanese originals because they don't own it and aren't on good terms with the owners either.


Tim Wing wrote:Dimensional shifting and dimensional folding are two different things. Shifting emissions into "Super Space" at a constant ongoing rate would not be the same as an instant "one for one" mater swap into Super Dimensional Space.

Not really, no... one is just a more severe application of the other, a partial rather than total displacement of matter into another dimension. The obvious problem being that, if they'd been using total displacement into higher dimensions than just the three (four) we usually occupy, partial displacement shouldn't be a thing the UEEF and its more advanced allies think is totally impossible.

Yet they tell us point-blank that their best and brightest minds believed that a dimensional shift was totally and completely impossible, and that it IS possible comes as a profound shock to the greatest scientists the UEEF has it its disposal. Even the Tirolians don't possess that technology, and it's SO advanced that UEEF scientists couldn't figure out how those shadow field systems worked even with tens of thousands of brand new and fully functional systems to examine AND technical consultation from more advanced species such as the Karbarrans and Tirolians. The whole plot falls apart if this is well-trodden ground that every faction is already familiar with.

Never mind that a Macross-style fold drive would also undermine "The Hunters", because that kind of fold drive doesn't warp the fabric of realspace the way they describe in the episode, and it wouldn't need to produce an artificial black hole via warping space to draw the "orbital warp blast"'s victims into another dimension.


Tim Wing wrote:Also, if the fold drive does not work by means of traveling through Super Dimensional Space, why is the Macross called the Super Dimension Battle Fortress?

Apart from the obvious, that it's an artifact title left by the adaptation process, it couldn't possibly be the exact same in-joke reference to the fact that the ships are VERY VERY BIG... :wink:

Seriously though, super dimension space doesn't exist in Robotech and has never been mentioned in an official Robotech title. The official definition for the term "Super Dimensional Fortress" makes absolutely zero mention of its faster-than-light travel mechanisms, and the fold drive definition explicitly tells us that the fold drive is moving the ship through space... not hyperspace, not subspace, not an alternate dimension, just space.


Tim Wing wrote:I'm going to break with the RPG here... I think the inertia vectoring system is quite interesting and quite necessary for explaining the agility of the Queadluun Rau.

Again, not a technology that exists in Robotech because the Macross explanation for same involves technology the UEEF absolutely and explicitly did not possess until 2043 and still doesn't understand while the tech is abandoned for being booby-trapped.


Tim Wing wrote:The Robotech masters were significantly ahead of us, technology wise.

... and they were as mystified by dimensional shifting technology as humanity was, which should say something.


Tim Wing wrote:Regardless, at the end of the day, I don't like the "Warp Bubble" explanation... Not totally down with changing the series name to Robo-trek.

It's worlds better than the usual Robotech fan standby of "Let's rip off Macross!", which just draws a line under the occasional accusation that Robotech can't even stand alone on its own merits as a story.

The fact is, the "fold drive is warp drive" explanation is official and accurate for Robotech, and will keep showing up in future Robotech works. Best make peace with it, because it's not likely to go away.
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Re: Fold drives explained!

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:Which completely tosses out dialogue cues from the show that they leave normal space.

Alleged dialogue cues that, in most cases, don't say anything like that... the most frequently brought up error being the "Orbital warp blast" in "The Hunters", where the actual description provided for the phenomenon is not at all unclear about the effect being the warping of realspace (to the extent of creating a small black hole).

I wasn't thinking of the "OWB", however dialogue there does state they get blasted into another dimension. However I was thinking in terms of TMS in Ep1 such as

Narrator: ...A gigantic alien spaceship broke through the very fabric of hyperspace on a collision course with the Earth....

Doesn't get any clearer than that IMHO, hyperspace has its own fabric which would be inconsistent with Star Trek Warp Drive. Granted there are a few references to Warp Folds, so who knows what the writers originally thought when doing the RT dialogue.
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Re: Fold drives explained!

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ShadowLogan wrote:I wasn't thinking of the "OWB", however dialogue there does state they get blasted into another dimension.

Actually, it says the orbital warp blast would cause the enemy to be "sucked into a small black hole on a one-way trip to another dimension". In short, they're asserting one of several theories about black holes... that a black hole terminates in another dimension, and that the ship is warping REALSPACE so hard that the change in the curvature of space creates a temporary small black hole.


ShadowLogan wrote:Narrator: ...A gigantic alien spaceship broke through the very fabric of hyperspace on a collision course with the Earth....

If I were to count the number of times Star Trek has done something appalling to the fabric of subspace with a warp drive (they use subspace fields to change the curvature of space), we'd be here all week. It's just as likely (rather more likely considering the official answer) that the fold drive on Zor's battlefortress was not operating normally at that time, and so did something nasty to the fabric of hyperspace via its fold bubble at the time it arrived in our solar system. Or maybe it fell through some kind of rift, like the anomaly of the week so common on ST.
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Re: Fold drives explained!

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Dammit Seto Kaiba, your argument is convincing.... I'm going to have to re-watch all the fold scenes and see what makes the most sense in this situation. Still, there is only one problem: the descriptions in the Art Book are vague at best.

So far, these are the references I've found:

- Page 40. HYPERSPACE FOLD A Hyperspace Fold drive distorts the space-time continuum to generate a spherical fold bubble that can be transported at speeds that circumvent the limitation of the speed of light through space.


- Page 140 Glossary. HYPERSPACE FOLD: A distortion of the space-time continuum that is generated to circumvent the limitations of the speed of light to transport vessels across great distances through space.


Hyperspace Fold...Hyperspace is a common name given to the extra dimension postulated in super string theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperspace ... ce_fiction)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstring_theory

http://mkaku.org/home/articles/hyperspa ... verything/

distorts the space-time continuum... Spacetime of course refers to conventional four dimensional Minkowski space. Okay, so the explanation say it distorts four dimensional space, but it does not say that it travel through four dimensional space. But it doesn't say that it doesn't. One could read this as it saying that it "distorts" the space-time continuum, allowing a ship to transit to a different dimension, or you can read as you have that it distorts space-time, and thus distorts the laws regarding the speed of light being an un-passable constant. I would be willing to concede this argument to you right now, based on that alone, if it were not for the fact that the device has "Hyperspace" in its name....

- Page 40. HYPERSPACE FOLD The Hyperspace Fold shares a common property with the Shadow Dimensional Fields in that it can mask or even shield against gravitational forces and some forms of energy.


This could point to fold drive and the shadow device being related.... or that they just share a common property. However, at what time in the series did we see either devices shielding anything from gravitational forces? Ultimately, this passage doesn't help either of our arguments. If anything, it helps yours a little, since it states they "share common properties", not "they are based on the same common principles".

Because of the name "Hyperspace Fold" and the fact that it does not implicitly say that the "Fold bubble" moves through the space-time continuum, but merely distorts it, I'm going to stick with my theory for now.... but I'm going to go back and re-watch all the fold scenes and possibly rethink this. I'm also going to remove all references of Super Space and replace them with Hyperspace, so as to de-Macrossize the article some.

Thanks Seto!
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Re: Fold drives explained!

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Seto wrote:Actually, it says the orbital warp blast would cause the enemy to be "sucked into a small black hole on a one-way trip to another dimension". In short, they're asserting one of several theories about black holes... that a black hole terminates in another dimension, and that the ship is warping REALSPACE so hard that the change in the curvature of space creates a temporary small black hole.

I was also thinking of the few other references in the Ep. I know Dana uses the description I did, I'm pretty sure Marie says something similar. It just wasn't Emerson's aide.

Seto wrote:If I were to count the number of times Star Trek has done something appalling to the fabric of subspace with a warp drive (they use subspace fields to change the curvature of space), we'd be here all week. It's just as likely (rather more likely considering the official answer) that the fold drive on Zor's battlefortress was not operating normally at that time, and so did something nasty to the fabric of hyperspace via its fold bubble at the time it arrived in our solar system. Or maybe it fell through some kind of rift, like the anomaly of the week so common on ST.


Most if not all of which are POST-RT developments. The only Star Trek that could possibly influence Robotech when it was written would be the Original Series, their animated sequel series, and the first 2 or 3 movies (more remotely would be any books). The rest came out after Robotech, so its likely safe to ignore a lot of Star Trek stories in this case.

Weather the Fold Drive was operating properly or not is immaterial, there are various references to hyperspace.
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Re: Fold drives explained!

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Tim Wing wrote:Dammit Seto Kaiba, your argument is convincing.... I'm going to have to re-watch all the fold scenes and see what makes the most sense in this situation. Still, there is only one problem: the descriptions in the Art Book are vague at best.

The diagram opposite the first one is pretty telling... being that it's a near-perfect copy of a similar diagram showing the warp effect out of the old Star Trek: the Next Generation tech manual. :lol:


Tim Wing wrote:Okay, so the explanation say it distorts four dimensional space, but it does not say that it travel through four dimensional space. But it doesn't say that it doesn't.

The visuals from Shadow Chronicles and Robotech Academy's trailer, the only times we've seen folding ships traveling from the outside, both indicate the ship remains in realspace. The depictions from Shadow Chronicles are particularly telling in this respect, since we actually see a fold bubble moving through realspace from the outside, at sublight speeds because it's trapped in a black hole's gravity well. During fold jumps, we see Star Trek-esque starlines zipping by (albeit at a much greater rate, since fold drives are supposed to be much faster than warp drives are depicted as being in Star Trek).



ShadowLogan wrote:Most if not all of which are POST-RT developments. The only Star Trek that could possibly influence Robotech when it was written would be the Original Series, their animated sequel series, and the first 2 or 3 movies (more remotely would be any books).

You have to remember, they're getting a double dose there... because the creators of Macross and Southern Cross were fairly open about their love of Star Trek, to the point of sneaking a number of blatant homages and references to the series into their work. Robotech's creators also exhibit a lot of blatant Star Trek reference in their original work, starting with Sentinels.

Of course, they're also getting the warp thing via Yamato too...

Let's just say there's a great big spaghetti-mess of inspirations here which all point in much the same direction.
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Re: Fold drives explained!

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Tim Wing wrote:Dammit Seto Kaiba, your argument is convincing....



He has a nasty habit of doing that.....he's why I've rewritten all the RPG game stats for Robotech and Macross II not to mention lengthy discussions that have allowed me to write up the likely most accurate Macross stats there are for Palladium in my not so humble and biased opinion....
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Re: Fold drives explained!

Unread post by Tim Wing »

So, leaving the VF-X-0 discussion behind (we are going to have to agree to disagree on the direction I'm taking my web-site Seto)....

The big problem with picking one form of FTL over the other, is the fact that in different parts of the show, ships are shown to be moving in different ways. Some sequences, such as the SDF-1's first fold over Macross Island, show the ship form a "bubble" and then poof! No ship! Then in other sequences, such as Shadow Chronicles, we see the ship moving into FTL travel by forming a bubble, then shooting off like a flaming meteor.

The question one would have to ask then is this: what takes precedence? The original series, where it looks to be a hyperspace fold as I described; or the new series, where it possibly may be an Alcubierre drive as you (Seto) postulated?

Really, these are all rhetorical questions. I say rhetorical, because Harmony Gold clearly states in the Art of Robotech the Shadow Chronicles the the ships use a Hyperspace Fold Drive! If the Fold Drive has nothing to do with Hyperspace, why the hell do the call it a Hyperspace Fold Drive!
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Re: Fold drives explained!

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Tim Wing wrote:The question one would have to ask then is this: what takes precedence?

According to Harmony Gold, the warp drive version... that's what's being used in Robotech on a going-forward basis in terms of visual depiction, and their official answer and depiction in original materials should take precedence (because it does, because they have the executive creator fiat to make it thus).


Tim Wing wrote:Really, these are all rhetorical questions. I say rhetorical, because Harmony Gold clearly states in the Art of Robotech the Shadow Chronicles the the ships use a Hyperspace Fold Drive! If the Fold Drive has nothing to do with Hyperspace, why the hell do the call it a Hyperspace Fold Drive!

Straightforward answer... the "hyperspace fold drive" is using a "hyperspace field" to form the fold bubble and to modify the local curvature of space to produce the propulsive effect. Star Trek's warp drive does that exact same thing, except the subspace bubble that they call a warp field isn't impermeable the way the fold bubble in RT apparently is. They're using physics from subspace/hyperspace to provide the "negative mass" effect that makes the drive work.

EDIT: Also, the "the ship just vanishes" effect in the series actually works with this explanation in terms of the relativistic effects of reflected light from the ship. The "it glows a lot first" not s'much, but that can be explained as the fold bubble/envelope forming.
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Re: Fold drives explained!

Unread post by Tim Wing »

Straightforward answer... the "hyperspace fold drive" is using a "hyperspace field" to form the fold bubble and to modify the local curvature of space to produce the propulsive effect. Star Trek's warp drive does that exact same thing, except the subspace bubble that they call a warp field isn't impermeable the way the fold bubble in RT apparently is. They're using physics from subspace/hyperspace to provide the "negative mass" effect that makes the drive work.


Thank you Seto, that is a good answer. (As well as civil, which I appreciate.)

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, you are basing your statements on what is seen in the Fold Sequences of the Shadow Chronicles, not on what is said in any of the source material published by HG, correct?
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Re: Fold drives explained!

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Tim Wing wrote:Now, correct me if I'm wrong, you are basing your statements on what is seen in the Fold Sequences of the Shadow Chronicles, not on what is said in any of the source material published by HG, correct?

On the description in AotSC which states that the "fold bubble" is being moved through space (not thru hyperspace, subspace, super dimension space, or any other alternate universe) combined with the visuals of the movie and RTA trailer and the diagram of the fold effect seen in the RTSC movie and art book (via screen cap from the movie).

Also, technically, upon the description of the orbital warp blast in the episode "The Hunters", which describes the fold effect as warping realspace (weaponized to create a temporary black hole).
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Re: Fold drives explained!

Unread post by Tim Wing »

Meh. Through space could refer to any kind of space... Hyperspace, four dimensional space, office space. Still, all things being equal, I think your explanation best reconciles the inconsistencies in the animation from both series and the written description.

I contend that the written description is inconclusive. I think there is a good chance that they meant it to be a Hyperspace drive (by weight of the name), and then went ahead and animated it the way they did because it looks cool. A classic case of the left and and the right hand not talking to each other. Even more likely, I bet they did not put any thought into the mechanics of FTL travel at all.

Seto, I think your conclusion is the most logical given the available information. I just think it would be a stretch to say with certainty that HG is indeed going forward with this explanation. I contend that they will never bother giving a REAL explanation other than the vague passage we get in the RTSC Art Book. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they release animation in the future contradicts/muddles things further.

Plus there is the issue of the dialogue from the first episode and the timeline on robotech.com: "A large alien spacecraft bursts through hyperspace and enters Earth's atmosphere, crashing on Macross Island in the South Pacific." and later "A malfunction of the ship's fold system results in a hyperspace jump, taking the SDF-1 and Macross Island to the orbit of the planet Pluto instead of its intended target near the moon. Malfunction also results in the complete disappearance of the fold system." Once again, through Hyperspace, not four dimensional space.

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/timel ... events.php

****. I'm putting down this stick... this horse is not going to get any deader. I'm going to sit my ass on this fence until HG comes out with something a little more conclusive.
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Re: Fold drives explained!

Unread post by Tim Wing »

Huh.... the site automatically edits out the F-word?
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