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[mech798]

Honestly, I think this just shows how bad the canon setting is. The problem is that Southern Cross and New Gen both had large cities and large populations-- because they origionally started with them. By trying to shoehorn that into Macross, and most importantly making it canon that there were no, or very few earth based survivors and the Zentraedi wereby and large exterminated, the writers left us in a position where trying to make sense of a lot of stuff that happens requires some, ah, very dramatic mental gymnastics.

[Seto Kaiba]

Honestly, I think this just shows how bad the canon setting is.

Eh... that's not going to be a popular sentiment here, that's for sure. I don't think it's so much a question of having a bad setting, so much as it is a problem endemic to trying to combine shows the way Robotech did. It would've been an issue no matter how well-planned the adaptation was, but what they had to use for shows made it a lot more blatant... and that it was done without any real advance planning and (as a few of those responsible claim) less-than-stellar translations of the originals, they ended up with a lot of significant adaptation-induced plot holes.

It didn't help that, when they finally decided to try and reinvent Robotech as serious SF/mecha anime franchise, they outsourced a lot of their information-gathering to fans... without bothering to check that the information they were receiving was accurate (or that it made sense).

That's how we got dimensions for the Alpha that don't match the physical proportions of the plane, or a gun pod for same that has an impossibly high caliber for the size of the gun, ships that are asserted to be more than twice the size they actually are... and so many other errors besides.

The problem is that Southern Cross and New Gen both had large cities and large populations-- because they origionally started with them.

Well... it's actually hard to say how populous Glorie was in the original Southern Cross, it was meant to be a sparsely populated and recently-colonized world. The problem is that Robotech fans tend to make assumptions about how populous these cities are without actual evidence, as though a downtown area or an office building more than three stories high is something you can only have if there are millions of people in the area. Some of the towns that we see establishing shots of only have maybe fifty or so homes TOTAL... even though the Robotech adaptation calls them cities.

By trying to shoehorn that into Macross, and most importantly making it canon that there were no, or very few earth based survivors and the Zentraedi wereby and large exterminated, the writers left us in a position where trying to make sense of a lot of stuff that happens requires some, ah, very dramatic mental gymnastics.

Taken from what various folks like Greg Snegoff have said about production, they weren't exactly planning that far ahead. They kinda tied their own hands by having Dana, it would've worked a lot better if they had put more time between the sagas.

[mech798]

Taken from what various folks like Greg Snegoff have said about production, they weren't exactly planning that far ahead. They kinda tied their own hands by having Dana, it would've worked a lot better if they had put more time between the sagas.

Yeah. If Masters saga happens say 80-100 years later, and assuming a focus on oopulation growth, you could have a vastly larger group. Equally, and this can be put at the feet of a lot of people who were around for the sentinals, just don't flat out say the zentraedi are gone. It's not like they have to stand out in a crowd, and honestly, they didn't have much of a culture to preserve so it woudln't be odd at all that second and third generation zentraedi would behave just like everyone else.

[ShadowLogan]

Only in the most superficial sense... it is, in all respects except designation, actually a completely separate and distinct aircraft from the Hornet and would have received a separate designation if not for the decision made to put one over on Congress to pay for it.

No it really is part of the family.

By contrast, the F-16XL and F-16SFW (yes, it's SFW, not FSW in the designation) are actually relatively minor changes to the F-16 in mechanical terms. Apart from calibrations changes to accommodate the aerodynamics of the modified wings, they didn't actually deviate from the "base" F-16 all that much.

Spelling error on my part FSW = SFW.

The F-16XL actually gained about 5ft in length (the F/A-18E/F is only about 4ft), with a few more feet in wingspan (F/A/-18E/F received more). The F-16SFW also enjoyed an increase in size (though a quick search hasn't turned up specifics just that it occurred). Both are still regarded as F-16 family members. Precedent for the F/A/-18E/F to be be part of the F/A-18 family even with its increased size.

the "Shadow Fighter" is a radically different aircraft from the standard Alpha, purpose-built for stealthy operations and radically different internally.

I agree the Shadow fighter has differences internally, but not enough to push for it being considered a separate family from the Alpha. Early X-15 flights used a pair of main engines taken from the X-1 before being replaced by a single engine for the X-15, so loss of engine(s) does not equate to being a new design.

It would not be the first time short-range in-system fold jumps were used (or attempted) in Robotech. The Zentradi were quite fond of them in the Macross Saga. That they got there by fold is no guarantee that they came from outside the solar system.

Agreed, but the shortest Jump that comes to mind is still drastically more than the Earth-Luna. There is no real evidence though that the 21st staged from anywhere in the Solar System. Being born in deep space on a Robotech ship would imply they aren't from any celestial body (planet, moon, asteroid/comet) either that they could stage from.

The validity of the crew count figures is somewhat suspect in RT, considering the depiction of those ships in the Shadow Chronicles movie... if we take that footage as any indication, the Ikazuchi-class has far fewer fighters than the OSM spec indicates (sixty launch tubes, but only about two dozen fighters shown per ship in formation).

They still are what they are. TSC could be considered to be showcasing variant Ikaz. compared to what the 21st MD had/used.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah. If Masters saga happens say 80-100 years later, and assuming a focus on oopulation growth, you could have a vastly larger group.

Heck, or if they'd just not waffled on whether the Bioroid pilots are androids, clones, or people, they could've just taken the Macross explanation and said "We did a lot of cloning". Either way would've worked just as well.

Equally, and this can be put at the feet of a lot of people who were around for the sentinals, just don't flat out say the zentraedi are gone. It's not like they have to stand out in a crowd, [...]

I think that choice was motivated more by legal concerns more than creative ones.

No it really is part of the family.

Only on paper, my friend... not mechanically.

The F-16XL actually gained about 5ft in length (the F/A-18E/F is only about 4ft), with a few more feet in wingspan (F/A/-18E/F received more).

But, as I noted, that was one of very few changes actually made... and didn't actually affect the engines and other onboard systems much. It's also worth noting that while the F-16XL was modified from a stock F-16, it's still classified as an experimental aircraft and not a proper part of the F-16 "family", and the F/A-18E/F isn't (in design) even close to being a F/A-18.

I agree the Shadow fighter has differences internally, but not enough to push for it being considered a separate family from the Alpha.

Internally and externally... the elimination of VTOL capability, retooling aerodynamics, a complete and radical rework of all onboard sensors, stealth retrofitting, changes in armaments, the addition of a whole new suite of systems... it's an Alpha in name only.

Agreed, but the shortest Jump that comes to mind is still drastically more than the Earth-Luna.

Actually, the very first attempted fold jump by a human ship was that exact route... they botched it due to outside circumstances, but their target was Earth to Luna.

There is no real evidence though that the 21st staged from anywhere in the Solar System.

Considering what's said WRT ship markings in AoTSC, there is actually some evidence to suggest that they were in fact staging inside the Solar System. The Mars divisions bear the Mars markings, while the UEEF's deep space units bear the UEEF crest instead. Also, there's no real evidence that they were NOT staging in the solar system either.

Where the crew was born has no influence whatsoever on where the attack was staged decades after some UEEF trooper had a kid.

[ShadowLogan]

But, as I noted, that was one of very few changes actually made... and didn't actually affect the engines and other onboard systems much. It's also worth noting that while the F-16XL was modified from a stock F-16, it's still classified as an experimental aircraft and not a proper part of the F-16 "family", and the F/A-18E/F isn't (in design) even close to being a F/A-18.

Yes the XL and SFW are experimental, but they are still based on the F-16, which makes them part of the F-16 family.

Internally and externally... the elimination of VTOL capability, retooling aerodynamics, a complete and radical rework of all onboard sensors, stealth retrofitting, changes in armaments, the addition of a whole new suite of systems... it's an Alpha in name only.

While there are a variety of things that changed, at its core the Shadow Fighter is still an Alpha Fighter due to a large number of similarities.

Aerodynamics have been known to be altered between models so doesn't prove anything.

Avionics are also known to get an update, and sometimes items that where not present in previous versions.

Stealth/signature reduction/control retrofitting again is nothing new or odd.

Even in the real world, variants aren't all capable of carrying the same armament load. So nothing odd here.

Even the loss of VTOL capacity doesn't make it an Alpha in name only. There isn't much real world precedent for this, given the lack of relevant VTOL aircraft to pull examples from. However there are cases where the loss/addition of engines does not effect the craft being considered part of a given family.

Actually, the very first attempted fold jump by a human ship was that exact route... they botched it due to outside circumstances, but their target was Earth to Luna.

Yes, but they missed the mark. And you where talking about the Zentraedi, not humans.

Considering what's said WRT ship markings in AoTSC, there is actually some evidence to suggest that they were in fact staging inside the Solar System. The Mars divisions bear the Mars markings, while the UEEF's deep space units bear the UEEF crest instead. Also, there's no real evidence that they were NOT staging in the solar system either.

Where the crew was born has no influence whatsoever on where the attack was staged decades after some UEEF trooper had a kid.

Mars Division doesn't have to be stationed at Mars to carry the markings of Mars though.

Actually where the crew are born can have an influence. It all depends on how the UEEF is structured as envisioned when 85ep was written vs today. They can be completely different.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes the XL and SFW are experimental, but they are still based on the F-16, which makes them part of the F-16 family.

We're talking production designs here though...

While there are a variety of things that changed, at its core the Shadow Fighter is still an Alpha Fighter due to a large number of similarities.

Not s'much... the core body block changed pretty significantly, as did the engines (stealth redesign), their sensors (total redesign, elimination of an entire body module), weapons, loss of capability, and so on.

Avionics are also known to get an update, and sometimes items that where not present in previous versions.

Not to the point of wholesale replacement of the entire sensor suite with a radically different approach to sensors... this is up to 11 by any standard.

Yes, but they missed the mark. And you where talking about the Zentraedi, not humans.

Khyron's trip to Mars is another example, he folded ahead to leapfrog the SDF-1 and set up and ambush.

Mars Division doesn't have to be stationed at Mars to carry the markings of Mars though.

True, but we know these forces self-identify as from <planet> base, and that suggests they're actually based there in the course of normal operations. Likewise, we know they're staging forces at a base on the moon's surface that has existed since before the 2nd Robotech War too.

There's no real evidence to say definitively one way or the other that they did or did not come from outside the solar system, directly or indirectly... so we're really not going to get anywhere with that one unless we split the difference and say they came from outside the solar system and staged at Luna or Mars.

[ShadowLogan]

We're talking production designs here though...

You may only be talking production designs only, but I am not.

Not s'much... the core body block changed pretty significantly, as did the engines (stealth redesign), their sensors (total redesign, elimination of an entire body module), weapons, loss of capability, and so on.

None of which would cause the unit to not be considered a model/block variant of the baseline Alpha. There are plenty of examples in the real world for this.

Not to the point of wholesale replacement of the entire sensor suite with a radically different approach to sensors... this is up to 11 by any standard.

Not really, aircraft have gone from analog to digital before, and even added sensors that where not present.

Khyron's trip to Mars is another example, he folded ahead to leapfrog the SDF-1 and set up and ambush.

Actually that was Breetai, Khyron was called up as reinforcements so he actually arrived from outside the Solar System. Mars was also several days away for the SDF-1 at this point, distance isn't given in concrete terms, only travel time. We know from later episodes that Earth-Moon flights are possible in terms of hours (even the SDF-1 in "Blue Wind" IIRC), not days by RT vessels.

True, but we know these forces self-identify as from <planet> base, and that suggests they're actually based there in the course of normal operations. Likewise, we know they're staging forces at a base on the moon's surface that has existed since before the 2nd Robotech War too.

"Planet" Base doesn't automatically mean they station there, it could be more of a psychological thing to help the UEEF spacers develop some connection to the old world. That is basically McKinney's take on the issue, and it makes sense.

All we know from the 85ep though is that the Moon Base was used to stage from action under taken in Ep83-5/TSC during the time of NG. 21st MD gives no such indication of staging from any Moon Base due to the use of the Fold Drive. Every known trip from Earth to the Moon (or reverse) has taken place w/non-Fold engines in TSC, Ep84-5, various TRM episodes, since Ep3 doesn't count since they ended up at Pluto.