The Sentinels seems to show where Monument City is located

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Well,

time to poke an old wound and open that sucker up to bleed again. With all the arguing over where Monument City was located, it does seem that proof appeared right under everyone's noses ever so briefly in The Sentinels video. If we take what is happening at face value, it certainly does not show Monument City and The Ruins of the SDF-01 being either on the Montana/Canada border OR on Thunder Bay near The Great Lakes. Nope, its rather plainly in the American Southwest since Mexico is in prominence, with The Gulf of Mexico (and what may be Baja California just barely peaking out from the clouds). The camera is zooming in to a point above Mexico, but to the west....

Monument City (01)
Monument City (02)

So, it appears that RTSURFER was correct all those years ago that Monument City should around the area of either Monument Valley or perhaps in Monument, Colorado. Either way, its pretty much dead on that Monument City is most certainly not in Upper Michigan/Canada nor the Montana/Canada border.

[Seto Kaiba]

Monument City (01)
Monument City (02)

To be fair, old chum, that just looks like a blurry mess to me... with little in the way of distinguishing landmarks.

So, it appears that RTSURFER was correct all those years ago that Monument City should around the area of either Monument Valley or perhaps in Monument, Colorado. Either way, its pretty much dead on that Monument City is most certainly not in Upper Michigan/Canada nor the Montana/Canada border.

Maybe... at least, up to the point where Harmony Gold decided that the Sentinels was no longer strictly valid and announced that only the "broad strokes" of the story were still considered correct/accurate, at which point they used The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles to officially establish that the three mounds were situated in the Thunder Bay area of Ontario, Canada. The "new" location makes for a better fit with the New Generation, since the Invid hive known as Reflex Point was supposedly built atop the three mounds and that was shown to be sprawling across the Great Lakes area (though mostly in Michigan's lower peninsula).

With the hoverbikes not shown to go any faster than ordinary motorcycles, and the ATAC 15th Squad's base being within a short jaunt of Monument City, that'd limit Monument's location to the general Great Lakes area as well.

[taalismn]

[

With the hoverbikes not shown to go any faster than ordinary motorcycles, and the ATAC 15th Squad's base being within a short jaunt of Monument City, that'd limit Monument's location to the general Great Lakes area as well.

The 15th doesn't like to discuss Louie's 'upgrades' to their Hoverbikes after that incident when the ill-named Major Rhoderaash chose to grab one of their 'cycles to observe Hovertank maneuvers up close and personal, and ended up painting a line of himself all the way to the old Oregon border...

[ShadowLogan]

If we take what is happening at face value, it certainly does not show Monument City and The Ruins of the SDF-01 being either on the Montana/Canada border OR on Thunder Bay near The Great Lakes. Nope, its rather plainly in the American Southwest since Mexico is in prominence, with The Gulf of Mexico (and what may be Baja California just barely peaking out from the clouds). The camera is zooming in to a point above Mexico, but to the west....

I'm not so sure. They didn't zoom in straight on Monument City from orbit, they "jumped" from orbital shot of NA to Monument City (above some clouds). At face value all it establishes is that it's located in NA.

At face value, TRM saga could be used to put Monument City and the Mounds in Euro-Asia IIRC one of the maps on a display for the projected impact site of the Cityship after the mounds had been opened up. Now we know TRM saga originally took place on an alien world, but the land mass depicted in the map makes me think they might be in Euro-Asia rather than NA (unless compass orientation on the display is different.). Even the SDF-1/New Macross location can be discerned from the 85ep IIRC, in Ep35 they have a map of the more immediate region, which might put limits on where it could be (unless they moved the wreckage to a new site for the mounds)

Plus if Reflex Point is viewed as a network of interconnected Hives, they could still have a Hive Node in the Western part of the continent (there are conflicting shots of the Hive network from space in 85ep), and nodes in the Eastern part. That wouldn't require the hive in Ep84/85 to be geographically the same as SX-PT83.

at which point they used The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles to officially establish that the three mounds were situated in the Thunder Bay area of Ontario, Canada. The "new" location makes for a better fit with the New Generation, since the Invid hive known as Reflex Point was supposedly built atop the three mounds and that was shown to be sprawling across the Great Lakes area (though mostly in Michigan's lower peninsula).

Except that there is no reason to make SX PT83 (Mounds in TRM) the same location as Reflex Point in NG. If anything that's one of those changes TSC introduced to the 85ep, as at no time does the original 85ep establish directly or indirectly that the two locations are the same (just like the year and the "revised" shadow devices).

[Seto Kaiba]

Except that there is no reason to make SX PT83 (Mounds in TRM) the same location as Reflex Point in NG.

Actually, that's been a thing for a lot longer than that...

Also, it makes perfect sense that the two locations would be one and the same. The Invid came to Earth specifically for the flower of life, and that was the richest concentration of the flower of life at the time of the invasion, making it the perfect logistical asset for the invasion and occupation force.

[ShadowLogan]

Except that there is no reason to make SX PT83 (Mounds in TRM) the same location as Reflex Point in NG.

Actually, that's been a thing for a lot longer than that...

Also, it makes perfect sense that the two locations would be one and the same. The Invid came to Earth specifically for the flower of life, and that was the richest concentration of the flower of life at the time of the invasion, making it the perfect logistical asset for the invasion and occupation force.

I know it dates back a bit earlier than TSC proper to the Wildstorm Comics, but before that there was no official product that I'm aware of (pre-2000 reboot) that actually put them as the same location. Not the novels or the 1E RPG put them as the same location, and nothing in the show suggests they are either.

And it actually doesn't make sense for the two locations to be the same:
- It would make more sense to build near by so that you don't take up valuable "farm" land from the plant you are coming to get (I'm not saying smaller hive/s couldn't be set up, but not Reflex Point's Hive/s)
-"Reflex Point" Hives (network of hives) are huge, and are visible from SPACE DURING THE DAY.
-Invid arrived officially 1year after the end of the 2RW (dialogue from the show can be used to allow for a few days, but just about every version of RT I'm familiar with uses a longer time frame), allowing for the spores to scatter to the four corners of the Earth. That means SX-PT83 may no longer be the largest concentration when the Invid actually do show up. Nor does it consider any actions that humans may have taken to control/cultivate the IFoL
-It also doesn't consider any PC stockpiles from the Masters ships (or possible Zentreadi wrecks) that degenerated and crashed to Earth separate from the Mounds (and we know PC was degenerating on the Masters ships) producing IFoL
-The Mounds are not far from Monument City, but "The Big Apple" and "The Fortress" both suggest that the Invid do modify existing structures for Hive duty. Since Reflex Point proper appears to be an unconverted type hive, it is unlikely they are built over Monument City or the air base (both of which would make prime Hive real estate, but as shown in previously mentioned episodes it is possible they would convert structures there to Hives).
-depicted Geography also works against the idea of the two sites being the same, not to mention there is no dialogue from 85ep that links the two.

This is basically another of TY's rectons.

[Seto Kaiba]

I know it dates back a bit earlier than TSC proper to the Wildstorm Comics, but before that there was no official product that I'm aware of (pre-2000 reboot) that actually put them as the same location.

Er... that's no indictment of the solution, considering that even Harmony Gold has openly dismissed almost everything produced before the reboot as either too inconsistent, too low-quality, or both.

- It would make more sense to build near by so that you don't take up valuable "farm" land from the plant you are coming to get (I'm not saying smaller hive/s couldn't be set up, but not Reflex Point's Hive/s)

Considering the spores had already spread, that's no obstacle... thanks a bunch Zor!

-"Reflex Point" Hives (network of hives) are huge, and are visible from SPACE DURING THE DAY.

Your point?

-Invid arrived officially 1year after the end of the 2RW (dialogue from the show can be used to allow for a few days, but just about every version of RT I'm familiar with uses a longer time frame), allowing for the spores to scatter to the four corners of the Earth.

Except, of course, that the flowers of life are never seen to be present in the "four corners of the Earth"... or at all, really (for the obvious reason). Time may be no object here. The greatest concentration of the spores and subsequent growth would still be in the immediate vicinity of the original site.

-It also doesn't consider any PC stockpiles from the Masters ships (or possible Zentreadi wrecks) that degenerated and crashed to Earth separate from the Mounds (and we know PC was degenerating on the Masters ships) producing IFoL

We know that the Masters were almost out of it and the Zentradi wrecks are no longer in evidence, so the amount of the release is probably negligible compared to the result of Zor's protoculture matrix being rather explosively breached (twice).

-The Mounds are not far from Monument City, but "The Big Apple" and "The Fortress" both suggest that the Invid do modify existing structures for Hive duty.

Yes, but we also see that they build their own hives in open terrain too, so that's not a counterargument.

-depicted Geography also works against the idea of the two sites being the same, not to mention there is no dialogue from 85ep that links the two.

Depicted geography doesn't really matter because we never see any context for the location of the three mounds apart from "in a relatively barren area"... while Reflex Point is given at least a vague location (the show never identifies WHICH hive dome is the main one).

[ShadowLogan]

Er... that's no indictment of the solution, considering that even Harmony Gold has openly dismissed almost everything produced before the reboot as either too inconsistent, too low-quality, or both.

Given that said sources they are discounting are all in basic agreement on a given topic, their individual quality/consistency shouldn't matter. Reflex Point and SX-PT83 are different locations, those sources are all in agreement on that (not to mention what used PC and time frame of NG). This is basically a recton for the sake of a recton.

Your point?

That Reflex Point is visible from space requires the structures to be large and cover a large area. Which means giving up more valuable land that is known to grow the plant they seek.

Except, of course, that the flowers of life are never seen to be present in the "four corners of the Earth"... or at all, really (for the obvious reason). Time may be no object here. The greatest concentration of the spores and subsequent growth would still be in the immediate vicinity of the original site.

You are correct it isn't shown at all in NG saga for obvious production reasons, but the team did encounter FoL in the episode "Sand Storms" (Rand was in a pit of the things) while in SA, where it was also possible the team could end up as share croppers on an Invid Protoculture farm ("The Fortress"). So clearly the spores have spread beyond the immediate vicinity of the Mounds to another continent (and if they can reach SA from NA, then it is possible other continents have also become home to the FoL).

We know that the Masters were almost out of it and the Zentradi wrecks are no longer in evidence, so the amount of the release is probably negligible compared to the result of Zor's protoculture matrix being rather explosively breached (twice).

Actually we know the Masters PC stockpiles where degenerating into the flowers (or infected by the Invid Flowers, "Final Nightmare"). So crashed ships here could provide new FoL sites.

Zentreadi wrecks may no longer be visible, but they could still have contaminated the environment prior to being removed or otherwise contained. An individual ship likely isn't going to amount to much more than the SDF-1 site, but there likely are far more Zent. sites than SDF-1 related sites that the FoL could spawn from.

So wrecks from both the Masters and Zentreadi are possible to create areas with larger concentrations.

Yes, but we also see that they build their own hives in open terrain too, so that's not a counterargument.

Maybe, but given the ready made structures they could convert at Monument and maybe the Air base I don't see them shifting to using the open terrain to build a hive so close to their prized flowers.

Depicted geography doesn't really matter because we never see any context for the location of the three mounds apart from "in a relatively barren area"... while Reflex Point is given at least a vague location (the show never identifies WHICH hive dome is the main one).

There are several instances of context for the location of the mounds:
#1 its near Monument City, which is close to New Macross City. This is established several times between two sagas.
#2 The 1st RT war ended (or a major battle I forget the specific quote) at the site of the Mounds (dialogue Bowie to Musica).
#3 The two cities are close enough that Rick can fly to them round trip, go for a lunch date, and get involved in minor battle (talk his way into acquiring a Destroid to, likely some more talking after ward for debrief), all w/n a dawn-dusk time frame in one day in fall (when the days are getting shorter).
#4 the last episode of TRM saga has a map with the projected impact point of the cityship (the one Zor blows up to destroy the FoL).
#5 TMS saga actually has a geographic map with the area of the SDF-1/New Macross City (ep35 IIRC), which means Monument isn't far from it based on the above

[Seto Kaiba]

Given that said sources they are discounting are all in basic agreement on a given topic, their individual quality/consistency shouldn't matter. Reflex Point and SX-PT83 are different locations, [...]

Not to put a razor-fine point on it, but failing to identify the location doesn't mean they agree that they're different locations...

That Reflex Point is visible from space requires the structures to be large and cover a large area. Which means giving up more valuable land that is known to grow the plant they seek.

You're assuming they grow them outside those hive domes... we never see the conditions in which they're grown.

You are correct it isn't shown at all in NG saga for obvious production reasons, but the team did encounter FoL in the episode "Sand Storms" (Rand was in a pit of the things) while in SA, where it was also possible the team could end up as share croppers on an Invid Protoculture farm ("The Fortress").

But we never SEE the alleged protoculture farm... and Rand only encounters spores, not the flowers themselves.

Maybe, but given the ready made structures they could convert at Monument and maybe the Air base I don't see them shifting to using the open terrain to build a hive so close to their prized flowers.

... and yet, this is exactly what they did. Please remember that we're discussing the story that IS, not the one you wish it was.

There are several instances of context for the location of the mounds:
#1 its near Monument City, which is close to New Macross City. This is established several times between two sagas.

Yes, but the location of "New Macross City" is never established, so that's a dead end right there.

#2 The 1st RT war ended (or a major battle I forget the specific quote) at the site of the Mounds (dialogue Bowie to Musica).

Yep, which is why the "From the Stars" comic actually puts the location of the mounds IN New Macross City.

#3 The two cities are close enough that Rick can fly to them round trip, go for a lunch date, and get involved in minor battle (talk his way into acquiring a Destroid to, likely some more talking after ward for debrief), all w/n a dawn-dusk time frame in one day in fall (when the days are getting shorter).

Which is nice, but it still doesn't establish a location... especially not in an aircraft that's known to be able to fly at almost Mach 4.

#4 the last episode of TRM saga has a map with the projected impact point of the cityship (the one Zor blows up to destroy the FoL).

Which doesn't correspond to any real-world terrain, because the original show was set on a planet 12LY away.

#5 TMS saga actually has a geographic map with the area of the SDF-1/New Macross City (ep35 IIRC), which means Monument isn't far from it based on the above

So? That doesn't establish the geographic whereabouts of either city, and does nothing to discredit the idea that the mounds are the same place as Reflex Point.

[ShadowLogan]

Not to put a razor-fine point on it, but failing to identify the location doesn't mean they agree that they're different locations...

But in a manner of speaking they do identify that the locations are different in the series based on geography, the novels and 1E RPG flat out state they are different locations. Given the known production history it would actually be easier for them to be separate locations than force them to be the same location.

But we never SEE the alleged protoculture farm... and Rand only encounters spores, not the flowers themselves.

We are TOLD they exist though, and involve locations outside of NA. The Spores ARE flowers though, just in a different stage of their life cycle.

Yep, which is why the "From the Stars" comic actually puts the location of the mounds IN New Macross City.

The Mounds have always been connected to the general location though, so that shouldn't surprise anyone really. It doesn't work out where NMC/SDF-1 is though, just that those locations in TMS and TRM saga are the same, but there is no connection w/n the 85ep for all 3 locations to be the same.

Which is nice, but it still doesn't establish a location... especially not in an aircraft that's known to be able to fly at almost Mach 4.

Rick's own personal civilian plane (Ep34) can fly at almost Mach4? Rick didn't do all this travel in a Veritech, he did it in his own personal civilian craft. Unless the Ep34 plane is significantly faster than his Racer (which your site lists with a top speed of around Mach 1 w/o boosters), he certainly did not have the option of nearly Mach4 flight. The location also has to be close enough one can drive to and fro w/n a day easily for a variety of examples from the show, which would shrink the range needed.

Which doesn't correspond to any real-world terrain, because the original show was set on a planet 12LY away.

True, but there are several ways to view or interpret the maps. IT is an alien system (even if they are genetically human) after all, so the display may not be showing what we would expect from a terran designed system.

So? That doesn't establish the geographic whereabouts of either city, and does nothing to discredit the idea that the mounds are the same place as Reflex Point.

Actually it can be used to disqualify locations of NMC/SDF-1 by the general outline of the land mass and bodies of water.

In any case officially we are stuck with the choice until they decide to recton it again.

[Seto Kaiba]

But in a manner of speaking they do identify that the locations are different in the series based on geography, [...]

Yeah, that's reliable... remember that we ARE dealing with a series where 1. the animation is stitched together from three separate shows and 2. the enemy force is usually throwing around weapons that have the demonstrated capability to reshape the landscape. You don't have a case there, I'm afraid... esp. due to the fact that the show is legendarily inconsistent and reluctant to give actual geographical clues unless those locations were explicitly cited in the original.

the novels and 1E RPG flat out state they are different locations.

The novels and 1st Edition RPG have one thing in common... they were effectively Robotech in name only, with their respective creators either shooting in the dark or making things up as they went along, by their own admission. They're not reliable evidence of anything, except that Robotech's old licensee-produced material is as unreliable as we've long known it is.

We are TOLD they exist though, and involve locations outside of NA. The Spores ARE flowers though, just in a different stage of their life cycle.

We're TOLD they exist by people who have, in all likelihood, never actually SEEN one... considering that the group involved consists of three schmucks from outer space, a sheltered (sort of) city girl, and a guy who's spent his entire life AVOIDING the Invid whenever possible. They are not reliable witnesses.

The Mounds have always been connected to the general location though, so that shouldn't surprise anyone really. It doesn't work out where NMC/SDF-1 is though, just that those locations in TMS and TRM saga are the same, but there is no connection w/n the 85ep for all 3 locations to be the same.

There's also no evidence to suggest they're different locations.

As much as I enjoy debating with you, I cannot accept your say-so as reliable evidence. Please provide actual evidence from credible sources to support your contention that these places are not the same.

Rick's own personal civilian plane (Ep34) can fly at almost Mach4? Rick didn't do all this travel in a Veritech, he did it in his own personal civilian craft.

Fair enough, even if he were only flying at Mach 1 he'd still be able to cover a significant distance in a very short span of time... faster by about 20% than a state-of-the-art commercial jetliner like the 787, so that means he could potentially cover several thousand miles in the time allotted.

Actually it can be used to disqualify locations of NMC/SDF-1 by the general outline of the land mass and bodies of water.

Except, of course, for the slight fact that we know that alien foes have wielded weapons with the ability to dramatically alter the landscape while they're going crazy rampage nuts on Earth... so general outlines of a land mass or body of water are not reliable evidence of anything.

[Alrik Vas]

How is this an argument? Extrapolation from a source that isn't Earth, when the writers turned it back into Earth via Robotech's story, doesn't supply enough evidence. You have to go back to what's said rather than what's shown because the dialogue, not the art, is the actual story of Robotech. The art belongs to a difference source.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

How is this an argument? Extrapolation from a source that isn't Earth, when the writers turned it back into Earth via Robotech's story, doesn't supply enough evidence. You have to go back to what's said rather than what's shown because the dialogue, not the art, is the actual story of Robotech. The art belongs to a difference source.

If you're referring to my original post, the art in question belongs to footage made specifically for Robotech II: The Sentinels. It is not Glorie, in point of fact.

[ShadowLogan]

Yeah, that's reliable... remember that we ARE dealing with a series where 1. the animation is stitched together from three separate shows and 2. the enemy force is usually throwing around weapons that have the demonstrated capability to reshape the landscape. You don't have a case there, I'm afraid... esp. due to the fact that the show is legendarily inconsistent and reluctant to give actual geographical clues unless those locations were explicitly cited in the original.

Given that Earth's geography from space appears to be similar in NG vs TMS the ability to do landscaping on a global scale doesn't hold water (or did the Invid contact the Magretheans for pointers?). TRM saga was notoriously populated with lots and lots of clouds from space making spotting surface features impossible.

The fact that the animation is stitched together would really make the case that the locations be separated when ever possible. TRM and TMS establish that certain locations are the same between sagas via dialogue, but there is no dialogue in the 85ep that actually connects NG location in question to the TMS/TRM saga locations.

The novels and 1st Edition RPG have one thing in common... they were effectively Robotech in name only, with their respective creators either shooting in the dark or making things up as they went along, by their own admission. They're not reliable evidence of anything, except that Robotech's old licensee-produced material is as unreliable as we've long known it is.

No they have a lot more in common than that. They have similar timelines for events on the 85ep series proper, they diverge in post Ep85 events. They both have PC as more in use in earlier arcs (TMS and TRM) than current "canon". They agree that the locations of NMC/SDF-1 (The Mounds) ARE NOT Reflex Point. They use the same naming acronym for the AJAX (AGAC currently). They both have larger population surivive. Etc.

For the old-licensee produced material to be unreliable those agreements shouldn't exist, but they do. Clearly they aren't as unreliable as some people want to make them out to be.

We're TOLD they exist by people who have, in all likelihood, never actually SEEN one... considering that the group involved consists of three schmucks from outer space, a sheltered (sort of) city girl, and a guy who's spent his entire life AVOIDING the Invid whenever possible. They are not reliable witnesses.

This I doubt, since they don't show us everything that happens to them (not that the majority would want to see everything they do). Their knowledge has to come from somewhere, either first hand or second hand. We do know from the Invid that the Invid do have human workers on Protoculture Farms ("Big Apple" by Corg, when he reveals that their plans where to always keep a small percentage of the human population as workers) and they do take prisoners (though not always for labor, ex. Dusty Ares).

There's also no evidence to suggest they're different locations.

I agree there no evidence to suggest that SX-PT83/Mounds/NMC-SDF1 are different locations for the TMS and TRM arcs, but there is absolutely nothing in the 85ep to suggest that Reflex Point is in the same location. Nothing, it all comes from post 2000 material forcing the change, making this yet another pointless recton by TPTB.

Fair enough, even if he were only flying at Mach 1 he'd still be able to cover a significant distance in a very short span of time... faster by about 20% than a state-of-the-art commercial jetliner like the 787, so that means he could potentially cover several thousand miles in the time allotted.

This isn't just a round trip to and fro, remember there are other events that take place. How long does it take to get to the individual airport to the restaurant combinations, not to mention is house to the airport? How long was Rick actually at the restaurant (he had been drinking and was cut off after Minmei left)? How long did it take him to do pre-flight checks and maintenance(both locations)? How long did it take him to get permission, suited up, and on location with the destroid he borrowed? How long did he spend with de-breifing/cleanup of the situation? Does he have to file a flight plan (or other pre-flight activities)? How much of the "daylight" was sacrificed before he even left for setup? How long did he try to contact Lisa by phone? Etc.

There is a lot more factoring into the sun up-to-down aspect than the actual flight involved. And we know from other incidents that it is w/n driving distance which really cuts down on the actual distance he travelled. Given that Dana was on foot after trashing her hoverbike in "Half-Moon" (though its possible she ran into other patrols in ones in general or out looking for her & Bowie).

Except, of course, for the slight fact that we know that alien foes have wielded weapons with the ability to dramatically alter the landscape while they're going crazy rampage nuts on Earth... so general outlines of a land mass or body of water are not reliable evidence of anything.

And we know from NG that earth's basic geographic lines have remained recognizable, so it is possible to still use it.

How is this an argument? Extrapolation from a source that isn't Earth, when the writers turned it back into Earth via Robotech's story, doesn't supply enough evidence. You have to go back to what's said rather than what's shown because the dialogue, not the art, is the actual story of Robotech. The art belongs to a difference source.

Because the actual dialogue from the 85 episodes does not connect NG's Reflex Point location to SX-PT83/The Mounds in TRM (which is connected to the SDF-1/NMC of TMS by Dialogue). They are connected by post 2000 material, but pre-2000 material is in agreement that they where not the same location if they addressed it at all.

[jaymz]

Eh, Robotech in many ways is a convoluted mess in regards to things like this. Just put it where yo want/need/think it shouldbe and be done with as those who argue these points will never agree anyway.

[Alrik Vas]

How is this an argument? Extrapolation from a source that isn't Earth, when the writers turned it back into Earth via Robotech's story, doesn't supply enough evidence. You have to go back to what's said rather than what's shown because the dialogue, not the art, is the actual story of Robotech. The art belongs to a difference source.

If you're referring to my original post, the art in question belongs to footage made specifically for Robotech II: The Sentinels. It is not Glorie, in point of fact.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but I couldn't make heads or tails of the image.

@ Shadowloagan: Ah, well unfortunately we have to go with with the post 2000 material on this, the people at HG decide this stuff, not us. (Though you have to wonder who would do a better job, at times) Though, ever since the early 90's I've thought New Macross, the Mounds and Reflex point were all in the same place. I'd have to blame the RPG books for that as I can't think of anywhere else I could have got that idea.

[Seto Kaiba]

How is this an argument? Extrapolation from a source that isn't Earth, when the writers turned it back into Earth via Robotech's story, doesn't supply enough evidence. You have to go back to what's said rather than what's shown because the dialogue, [...]

Personally, I'm not sure why this was announced as revealing the location of Monument City, when those two screen captures are blurry, indistinct, and are from a canceled Robotech project... which would tend to guarantee the visuals are of, at best, dubious validity. Never mind that Harmony Gold decided all the Sentinels material was not a valid or applicable part of Robotech's story, other than on the most basic details. It's an assertion based on a source we've already been told at the highest level is an invalid source.

I've never understood the Robotech fandom's urge to try and find "hidden" details and easter eggs in Robotech when the people who "made" the series have been very frank about the whole mess having been made in such a rush that they didn't even have time to check their work for consistency. There are no hidden secrets in Robotech, and every attempt to find them is a midnight search in an unlit cellar for a black cat that isn't there. It almost always seems to come in the form of "they changed it, now it sucks", even though the supposed changes are usually going from having no answer to having an answer (like this situation).

Given that Earth's geography from space appears to be similar in NG vs TMS the ability to do landscaping on a global scale doesn't hold water (or did the Invid contact the Magretheans for pointers?).

Funny you should mention landscaping... since one of the most notorious inconsistencies in Robotech is how the Earth managed to go from a barren desert in 2030 to a fairly verdant and unspoiled planet just twelve years later.

The fact that the animation is stitched together would really make the case that the locations be separated when ever possible.

That's your opinion, but you've just established for us that the cloud cover in the Masters Saga is such that it prevents any assessment of terrain from above... so there's no need to make them separate locations if the story would benefit from them being the same place.

there is no dialogue in the 85ep that actually connects NG location in question to the TMS/TRM saga locations.

There's also none that identifies them as separate too, and we ARE told the Invid are homing in on the release of Protoculture... so it makes sense that they be the same locale, as the official line has it.

No they have a lot more in common than that.

And all of it is irrelevant, because they're both Robotech in name only... thanks for playing, and have a wonderful evening.

[ShadowLogan]

@ Shadowloagan: Ah, well unfortunately we have to go with with the post 2000 material on this, the people at HG decide this stuff, not us. (Though you have to wonder who would do a better job, at times) Though, ever since the early 90's I've thought New Macross, the Mounds and Reflex point were all in the same place. I'd have to blame the RPG books for that as I can't think of anywhere else I could have got that idea.

It might be from the 1E RPG to get that idea, but they don't actually make the claim more of a possibility they don't seem to enterain but mention in the REF Field Guide (pg133) places Reflex Point in the Great Lakes region BASED ON THE ANIMATION, though they offer the idea it MIGHT be the SDF-1 site, but that would place it over in Montana/Canada boarder area, but they do not actually state the two are the same sites, as animation suggests they are different since SDF-1 (they have established) is out west, along with Monument City, and Reflex Point is in the Great Lakes region.

REF FIELD GUIDE pg133: "Where is Reflex Point? There has been a lot of specualtion as to where our heroes travelled and exactly where Reflex Point is located. Well, our research indicates the following. [listing possible locations as they travel through episodes]... The T.V. show seems to imply that Reflex Point is near New York, but a distorted aerial map/view seems to place Reflex Point near the Great Lakes. Narrowing that down further, it would seem that the Point lines between Thunder Bay and Winnipeg in Canada, or perhaps Minnesota or Wisconsin. HOWEVER, if the site of Reflex Point is at or near the burial site of the SDF-1, then it would have to be Calgary, near the Montana boarder." (Note Calgary/Montana border is used to relate the site of the New Macross Ciy/SDF-1/Mounds in several books).

So they don't actual equate Reflex Point with the SDF-1 site, but seem to offer it up as a remote possibility "HOWEVER, if..." (which would not agree with the animation).

Funny you should mention landscaping... since one of the most notorious inconsistencies in Robotech is how the Earth managed to go from a barren desert in 2030 to a fairly verdant and unspoiled planet just twelve years later.

Earth was well on its way to healing even by the end of TMS, recall that the Amazon had regenerated by 2013, and by 2029 the area around Monument had stretches, but it wasn't total barren desert. So there is hardly an inconsistency here.

That's your opinion, but you've just established for us that the cloud cover in the Masters Saga is such that it prevents any assessment of terrain from above... so there's no need to make them separate locations if the story would benefit from them being the same place.

That TRM prevents identification isn't that big a deal. The City is established to be close enough to the site of New Macross/SDF-1, which can be placed in western NA by indications from TMS, where Reflex Point can be placed in eastern NA by all indications.

There's also none that identifies them as separate too, and we ARE told the Invid are homing in on the release of Protoculture... so it makes sense that they be the same locale, as the official line has it.

Animation does that making the two separate locations. Every map/ariel view of NA shows RP in the East/Great Lakes region during NG. This is inconsistent with TMS saga that puts the SDF-1 out west near Alaska Base (Rick and Lisa saw the SDF-1 land after evacuating the grand cannon with a ripped away canopy, and there is nothing to indicate the SDF-1 moved after ward).

If the Invid where merely concerned with the release of PC, why scatter to all 4-corners of the Earth? The only reason that makes sense is that the FoL/PC is not concentrated at SX-PT83 any more.

[qoute="Seto"]And all of it is irrelevant, because they're both Robotech in name only... thanks for playing, and have a wonderful evening.[/quote]
That is your opinion. I have the same view about Yune's comics/TSC storyline.

[Seto Kaiba]

That TRM prevents identification isn't that big a deal. The City is established to be close enough to the site of New Macross/SDF-1, which can be placed in western NA by indications from TMS, where Reflex Point can be placed in eastern NA by all indications.

The location of New Macross City is never established explicitly... or even approximately... in Robotech, though the general assumption based upon the OSM was that it was in Alaska near the Alaskan Grand Cannon as it was in the OSM.

Animation does that making the two separate locations. Every map/ariel view of NA shows RP in the East/Great Lakes region during NG. This is inconsistent with TMS saga that puts the SDF-1 out west near Alaska Base (Rick and Lisa saw the SDF-1 land after evacuating the grand cannon with a ripped away canopy, and there is nothing to indicate the SDF-1 moved after ward).

No, it really doesn't... and it's ironic, because I'm now reiterating a point that you yourself made on another site a few years back before Harmony Gold definitively settled the matter. We have no idea how long Rick and Lisa were flying when they left the Grand Cannon or how much time is passing in the cuts between the departure from the Grand Cannon and the return of the SDF-1, or from what range they observed the ship's reentry (it is, after all, a kilometer-plus in length, and therefore a fairly significantly large object to see make reentry).

It does not explicitly establish that New Macross City is in Alaska (though Macross City emphatically IS in Alaska, near what we know as Yukon-Charlie Rivers National Preserve, in the original Macross).

If the Invid where merely concerned with the release of PC, why scatter to all 4-corners of the Earth? The only reason that makes sense is that the FoL/PC is not concentrated at SX-PT83 any more.

If the Invid are concerned with the concentration of the protoculture release, they would naturally center their actions around SX.83, as that was the place where the Flowers of Life were at their greatest concentration... therefore making that location the logical position for the Invid's HQ and snack bar.

That is your opinion. I have the same view about Yune's comics/TSC storyline.

Er... at the risk of gouging a planet-sized hole in your hand-waved denial, my "opinion" is a simple statement of fact for the Robotech storyline based on the current and official continuity and unambiguously canon material. The claims you're making fly in the face of the official material and depends on both circular logic and stringent denial of the facts.

In short, there's a pretty significant gulf of credibility between your opinion and mine.

[ShadowLogan]

No, it really doesn't... and it's ironic, because I'm now reiterating a point that you yourself made on another site a few years back before Harmony Gold definitively settled the matter. We have no idea how long Rick and Lisa were flying when they left the Grand Cannon or how much time is passing in the cuts between the departure from the Grand Cannon and the return of the SDF-1, or from what range they observed the ship's reentry (it is, after all, a kilometer-plus in length, and therefore a fairly significantly large object to see make reentry).

Yes the SDF-1 should be visible from a good distance away due to its sheer size, and we don't know how long Rick/Lisa where flying after they left the Grand Cannon. But we have to consider that they where flying in an open cockpit vehicle with no oxygen masks (and Lisa was not in a flightsuit), that is going to limit the performance range of the mecha. Still it makes more sense for them to be in the West than in the East. The West has a lower population density than the East, so it is highly probable strikes from the R.o.D in that region where less severe in general than out East, making the region attractive for re-settlement.

If the Invid are concerned with the concentration of the protoculture release, they would naturally center their actions around SX.83, as that was the place where the Flowers of Life were at their greatest concentration... therefore making that location the logical position for the Invid's HQ and snack bar.

SX.83 site though is (by current canon) roughly one year out of date though since the Invid arrive sometime in 2031, but the release was in June of 2030 (RT.com timeline). That allows for the greatest concentration to move and alter position. The Cityship debris is also shown to crush the FoL plants (and general impact sites are shown to be smoking, so that opens up the possibility of wild fire), so it is unlikely it is the largest concentration any more between that and the spores spreading on the wind (spores in the real world can travel 100s of miles by the wind).

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes the SDF-1 should be visible from a good distance away due to its sheer size, and we don't know how long Rick/Lisa where flying after they left the Grand Cannon.

Well then, case closed...

But we have to consider that they where flying in an open cockpit vehicle with no oxygen masks (and Lisa was not in a flightsuit), that is going to limit the performance range of the mecha.

Low altitude flight does not require pressurization, etc., and a VF-1 can still move at a pretty significant rate in GERWALK mode. Assuming he wasn't going full throttle, he could still easily have been going at a speed of several hundred kilometers per hour with what remained of the canopy.

SX.83 site though is (by current canon) roughly one year out of date though since the Invid arrive sometime in 2031, but the release was in June of 2030 (RT.com timeline). That allows for the greatest concentration to move and alter position. [...] the spores spreading on the wind (spores in the real world can travel 100s of miles by the wind).

Funny enough, if you factor in the prevailing winds in the Thunder Bay region and thereabouts... the most likely place for the spores to be carried is Michigan.

[ShadowLogan]

Well then, case closed...

Hardly, we also don't know which direction the VT took off in, or the SDF-1 was moving.

Low altitude flight does not require pressurization, etc., and a VF-1 can still move at a pretty significant rate in GERWALK mode. Assuming he wasn't going full throttle, he could still easily have been going at a speed of several hundred kilometers per hour with what remained of the canopy.

I'm aware of this, but they are still factors that should influence Rick's piloting among others. Just because the mecha is capable of a given speed/alt. doesn't mean they could actually use it, or other factors we aren't thinking of that could work against them.

Funny enough, if you factor in the prevailing winds in the Thunder Bay region and thereabouts... the most likely place for the spores to be carried is Michigan.

That assumes the FoL Spores have ranges similar to Earth varieties or other factors can't influence the range to increase it further though. The FoL is an alien plant (and the ones at the Mounds are mutated) after all, one that is responsible for the an energy source above conventional nuclear after all, normal ideas about how the spores would perform may not be valid at all. The explosion/crash-site may also help to extend the range of the spores than just the wind and what ever their natural release mechanism may be.

The Narrator's statement at the end of Ep60 states "Earth has become a fertile garden" for the spores/FoL. That description would imply that either we have multiple release sites we don't know about or the Spores have a much greater range that terrestrial thinking on spores involves or the he was thinking in long term.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hardly, we also don't know which direction the VT took off in, or the SDF-1 was moving.

But both facts leave a fairly broad range of possible areas that do extend into the target area.

I'm aware of this, but they are still factors that should influence Rick's piloting among others. Just because the mecha is capable of a given speed/alt. doesn't mean they could actually use it, or other factors we aren't thinking of that could work against them.

Apart from the missing canopy and arms (the latter of which would DECREASE drag, not increase it), there does not appear to be any functional impairment of the VF. To assume otherwise without evidence would be a significant fallacy.

That assumes the FoL Spores have ranges similar to Earth varieties or other factors can't influence the range to increase it further though.

But, as the Invid presence is centered on where the flowers of life grow most readily and we know they're pretty much all over the Great Lakes region (but especially in Michigan's lower peninsula), that would seem to answer the question quite readily.

The Narrator's statement at the end of Ep60 states "Earth has become a fertile garden" for the spores/FoL.

The narrator giveth and the visuals taketh away... we do not, in point of fact, ever see any "fertile garden" for the Flowers of Life in the series. We do not, in point of fact, see a single "flower of life" in the whole of the New Generation, despite there supposedly being a major crop for the allegedly enslaved labor force we never see, working the slave labor plantations that don't seem to actually exist.

[ShadowLogan]

But both facts leave a fairly broad range of possible areas that do extend into the target area.

True, which is the problem though. Any attempt by anyone, even HG/TPTB at this point is be purely arbitrary.

Apart from the missing canopy and arms (the latter of which would DECREASE drag, not increase it), there does not appear to be any functional impairment of the VF. To assume otherwise without evidence would be a significant fallacy.

Your assuming that there isn't anything in the environment (like ash, dust, etc) that could impede operation of the engines, or the unprotected occupants. Then there is the question of fuel reserves on the Veritech, etc.

But, as the Invid presence is centered on where the flowers of life grow most readily and we know they're pretty much all over the Great Lakes region (but especially in Michigan's lower peninsula), that would seem to answer the question quite readily.

That the Great Lakes region became the site of choice for FoL post Ep60 is not in dispute. What is in dispute is where the Mounds/SX.83 is actually located in TRM saga (and by extension TMS). The FoL that took root at the Mounds are identified as mutants, which may give them an edge in growing under the conditions inside the Mounds, but it may also indicate that the site itself is not the best for growing (recall that in "Half-Moon" radioactive material is mentioned as being present at the Mounds) if the plant itself has to be of a mutant variety to grow in that specific region/condition that points to it not being the area where the FoL would grow most readily.

The narrator giveth and the visuals taketh away... we do not, in point of fact, ever see any "fertile garden" for the Flowers of Life in the series. We do not, in point of fact, see a single "flower of life" in the whole of the New Generation, despite there supposedly being a major crop for the allegedly enslaved labor force we never see, working the slave labor plantations that don't seem to actually exist.

We both know why the visuals are lacking during the NG saga, forcing the use of dialogue exclusively to convey those aspects. No one says the DoZ or Space Pirates don't exist because we haven't seen them (yet, and likely not to outside of maybe future comics).

[Seto Kaiba]

True, which is the problem though. Any attempt by anyone, even HG/TPTB at this point is be purely arbitrary.

Not arbitrary... there's a clear and logical reason to identify Monument City and SX.83 where they did.

Your assuming that there isn't anything in the environment (like ash, dust, etc) that could impede operation of the engines, or the unprotected occupants. Then there is the question of fuel reserves on the Veritech, etc.

Why would we assume that there was, when thus far no such factor has ever been mentioned... not in the official Robotech material, and not in the original Japanese shows. As the OSM has it, the engines on the VF-1 were designed to operate in Earth's harshest climates (including underwater) and in deep space... and there's no evidence to suggest that's not also true for Robotech. Any environmental condition so severe that it would prevent the VF-1's engines from operating would probably have killed the pilot and the passenger in the open cockpit.

As far as fuel goes, both the OSM and the RT RPG agree that a VF-1 has more than sufficient fuel for days of continuous operation in a planetary atmosphere. There's no reason to suspect that fuel is a concern for it.

If you have an objection, please make sure it has a factual basis... what you've brought so far does not.

What is in dispute is where the Mounds/SX.83 is actually located in TRM saga (and by extension TMS).

Technically it's not in dispute, as we have an official canon statement that its location is the same as that of Reflex Point, in the Thunder Bay area. You simply don't like the correct answer.

The FoL that took root at the Mounds are identified as mutants, which may give them an edge in growing under the conditions inside the Mounds, [...]

Do you have any hard evidence to suggest that the mutant flowers of life whose spores spread and drew the attention of the Invid would have difficulty growing anywhere else? No? Didn't think so.

We both know why the visuals are lacking during the NG saga, forcing the use of dialogue exclusively to convey those aspects.

The problem there is that we have a demonstrably unreliable narrator and unfounded allegations made by people who have likely never seen a protoculture farm, being either from space or a career avoider of the Invid.

No one says the DoZ or Space Pirates don't exist because we haven't seen them (yet, and likely not to outside of maybe future comics).

Whether the Disciples of Zor actually still exist at the point when the story takes place is debatable, since there is no evidence of their involvement or existence... only an uninformed theory that they might be the responsible party behind the destruction of Dolza's fleet. Space pirates? Same story, they're mentioned in a single throwaway line and may or may not actually exist. Robotech is not exactly known for using terms accurately or consistently either.

[Alrik Vas]

@ Shadowloagan: Ah, well unfortunately we have to go with with the post 2000 material on this, the people at HG decide this stuff, not us. (Though you have to wonder who would do a better job, at times) Though, ever since the early 90's I've thought New Macross, the Mounds and Reflex point were all in the same place. I'd have to blame the RPG books for that as I can't think of anywhere else I could have got that idea.

It might be from the 1E RPG to get that idea, but they don't actually make the claim more of a possibility they don't seem to enterain but mention in the REF Field Guide (pg133) places Reflex Point in the Great Lakes region BASED ON THE ANIMATION, though they offer the idea it MIGHT be the SDF-1 site, but that would place it over in Montana/Canada boarder area, but they do not actually state the two are the same sites, as animation suggests they are different since SDF-1 (they have established) is out west, along with Monument City, and Reflex Point is in the Great Lakes region.

REF FIELD GUIDE pg133: "Where is Reflex Point? There has been a lot of specualtion as to where our heroes travelled and exactly where Reflex Point is located. Well, our research indicates the following. [listing possible locations as they travel through episodes]... The T.V. show seems to imply that Reflex Point is near New York, but a distorted aerial map/view seems to place Reflex Point near the Great Lakes. Narrowing that down further, it would seem that the Point lines between Thunder Bay and Winnipeg in Canada, or perhaps Minnesota or Wisconsin. HOWEVER, if the site of Reflex Point is at or near the burial site of the SDF-1, then it would have to be Calgary, near the Montana boarder." (Note Calgary/Montana border is used to relate the site of the New Macross Ciy/SDF-1/Mounds in several books).

So they don't actual equate Reflex Point with the SDF-1 site, but seem to offer it up as a remote possibility "HOWEVER, if..." (which would not agree with the animation).

I'm imagining where these places are, and if you had a hive complex visible from space during the day, then it works with them all being relatively distant from each other because they'd be close enough that something that massive could enclose them all.

[ShadowLogan]

Not arbitrary... there's a clear and logical reason to identify Monument City and SX.83 where they did.

Not really. There are also clear and logical reasons to identify those lcoations the way they are in pre-2000 material to.

Why would we assume that there was, when thus far no such factor has ever been mentioned... not in the official Robotech material, and not in the original Japanese shows. As the OSM has it, the engines on the VF-1 were designed to operate in Earth's harshest climates (including underwater) and in deep space... and there's no evidence to suggest that's not also true for Robotech. Any environmental condition so severe that it would prevent the VF-1's engines from operating would probably have killed the pilot and the passenger in the open cockpit.

As far as fuel goes, both the OSM and the RT RPG agree that a VF-1 has more than sufficient fuel for days of continuous operation in a planetary atmosphere. There's no reason to suspect that fuel is a concern for it.

If you have an objection, please make sure it has a factual basis... what you've brought so far does not.

Why would we assume that there is something in the environment? You mean aside from the exploding base tossing up debris, or the bombardment with nuclear level blasts doing the same you mean? Large particles likely already hit the ground, but smaller particles can still be floating about in the air.

The engines do not need to be prevented from operating completely, but they can have their performance impeded. Operations in space (and likely underwater) though aren't with the engines in airbreathing mode, so would be unaffected like they would be sucking air in like they would in their airbreathing mode.

You are assuming that all the fuel tanks are still available, we know the VF-1 lost its arms, allowing for the possiblity (in RT, I don't care about the OSM version) of a loss of fuel capacity.

Technically it's not in dispute, as we have an official canon statement that its location is the same as that of Reflex Point, in the Thunder Bay area. You simply don't like the correct answer.

It is in dispute otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. What passes for the "correct" answer by HG is just another of their pointless rectons from pre-2000 materials that where in general agreement on things.

Do you have any hard evidence to suggest that the mutant flowers of life whose spores spread and drew the attention of the Invid would have difficulty growing anywhere else? No? Didn't think so.

Considering there are different types of mutation the spores themselves may not be mutant (not all mutations are passed to offspring), but we know those spores where released into the wild and at a level to impact the Earth as a whole (so said site can't be the only place they settle down in, which means they aren't the defacto largest concentration). Plus the plants themselves are crushed by falling debris from the exploding cityship (further helping with the site not being the defacto largest concentration). Those mutants are only known to grow because of the PC Matrix/Factory inside the mound itself, the mutants may not be as successful without it.

That SX.83 is the largest concentration by June of 2030 I don't dispute, but by 2031 when the Invid actually arrive it is possible that that particular title has shifted to a new location(s).

The problem there is that we have a demonstrably unreliable narrator and unfounded allegations made by people who have likely never seen a protoculture farm, being either from space or a career avoider of the Invid.

Everyone (human, invid, narrator) though is in basic agreement that said things exist w/n the setting, even if they aren't shown. So unless the dialogue is in conflict (and it isn't in this case) the lack of visuals doesn’t' mean they don't exist, just that they weren’t a focus on any given episode story.

Whether the Disciples of Zor actually still exist at the point when the story takes place is debatable, since there is no evidence of their involvement or existence... only an uninformed theory that they might be the responsible party behind the destruction of Dolza's fleet. Space pirates? Same story, they're mentioned in a single throwaway line and may or may not actually exist. Robotech is not exactly known for using terms accurately or consistently either

Both parties though exist at some point otherwise they wouldn't be considered as possible culprits for the given incidents. "Space Pirates" is also more of a catch all term, not a specific group (like the DoZ would be) and one that by indications does not use Robotechnology. We also don't know if DoZ is just what the Masters call them, or if they themselves use the name.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not really. There are also clear and logical reasons to identify those lcoations the way they are in pre-2000 material to.

Considering you have yet to actually cite one... well, that means your claim isn't exactly accurate.

Why would we assume that there is something in the environment? You mean aside from the exploding base tossing up debris, [...]

Which, apart from cracking the canopy, seem to have done precisely nothing to the airframe... with exactly zero additional damage shown or mentioned?

or the bombardment with nuclear level blasts doing the same you mean? Large particles likely already hit the ground, but smaller particles can still be floating about in the air.

Considering the VF-1's shown to be perfectly capable of operating in desert conditions and even inside the ring system of Saturn, this is clearly not an issue.

The engines do not need to be prevented from operating completely, but they can have their performance impeded.

But no such impediment is ever mentioned or depicted at any point in all of Robotech, or Macross for that matter.

If you're going to build an argument, please build your argument upon actual evidence. Baseless what-ifs and your say-so do not constitute evidence by any rational standard.

Operations in space (and likely underwater) though aren't with the engines in airbreathing mode, so would be unaffected like they would be sucking air in like they would in their airbreathing mode.

OSM-ly, the underwater operations mode IS driving water into the intakes so the MHD engine in the final turbine stage can provide propulsion. Therefore, debris infiltration is unlikely to be a significant concern, considering Robotech cheerfully follows Macross's lead when it comes to almost all technical detail.

You are assuming that all the fuel tanks are still available, we know the VF-1 lost its arms, allowing for the possiblity (in RT, I don't care about the OSM version) of a loss of fuel capacity.

Yes, I am, because there is no indication that the RT version differs in its fuel tank locations... in the legs and wings. Neither of those locations was compromised and there is no mention of a loss of fuel capacity and/or tank integrity. The VF-1 in question had also previously been operating with external tanks, so its fuel stores are likely close to full.

It is in dispute otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I wouldn't call it "in dispute", to say that implies that you're arguing against an opinion or unproven stance.

You're simply trying to deny an established fact... without evidence, I might add.

Considering there are different types of mutation the spores themselves may not be mutant (not all mutations are passed to offspring), but we know those spores where released into the wild and at a level to impact the Earth as a whole [...]

Except there's no proof of this...

Everyone (human, invid, narrator) though is in basic agreement that said things exist w/n the setting, even if they aren't shown.

Actually, most of those are single-person assertions that go completely unchallenged, made by people who have no actual knowledge to support their claim. In essence, it's them repeating propaganda as fact.

[ShadowLogan]

Which, apart from cracking the canopy, seem to have done precisely nothing to the airframe... with exactly zero additional damage shown or mentioned?

That can be seen externally you mean. We are likely looking at fine particles at this point, meaning damage is going to be hard to spot and not likely to damage the external workings of the mecha much, but can still have a greater influence on the exposed crew.

Considering the VF-1's shown to be perfectly capable of operating in desert conditions and even inside the ring system of Saturn, this is clearly not an issue.

While we see them operating under given conditions, we don't know how much off screen maintenance they have to under go because of those conditions.

And the rings of Saturn don't have them sucking material into the engines either, so really doesn't prove anything.

But no such impediment is ever mentioned or depicted at any point in all of Robotech, or Macross for that matter.

Real engines suffer impediment under those conditions. I see no reason that RT or Macross engines wouldn't either if they draw air or fluid in from the external environment.

You're simply trying to deny an established fact... without evidence, I might add.

I don't see it as an established fact since for 15years it was the exact opposite. There is no evidence w/n the 85ep to support HGs "fact" and everything that points in the other direction.

Except there's no proof of this...

Only if you ignore the dialogue. See below.

Actually, most of those are single-person assertions that go completely unchallenged, made by people who have no actual knowledge to support their claim. In essence, it's them repeating propaganda as fact.

Corg's assertions can't be so easily dismissed though. That makes the "propaganda", as you put it, closer to fact than fiction (w/n RT) even if it comes from other sources.

The Main reason we don't see those work camps or the FoL in NG though is because they where never depicted in GCM. RT's 85ep is entirely recycled animation, so HG was limited in what they can depict visually, but they have much greater freedom in what they can depict through audio/dialogue. Now HG did have options to add stuff visually even back in '85 (juxtaposition, CG insertion like they use in the news, commission new material like they did with RT:TUS, use another series for background shots and maybe even juxtaposition, etc), but they chose not to do that.

At any rate we're just going around in circles at this point.

[Seto Kaiba]

That can be seen externally you mean.

No, I mean there's no other damage shown or mentioned... period, and nobody seems to encounter any issues with breathing the air at the time either. There's not so much as a cough or a clearing of throats.

Your what-ifs are not evidence. Reflex denials, though thematically appropriate to Robotech, are not evidence either.

While we see them operating under given conditions, we don't know how much off screen maintenance they have to under go because of those conditions.

There is no mention or depiction of those operating conditions causing any extra mechanical work for the ground crew, which would be consistent with the OSM. These are hard-wearing machines.

Real engines suffer impediment under those conditions. I see no reason that RT or Macross engines wouldn't either if they draw air or fluid in from the external environment.

Real jet engines operate by combustion, meaning the purity of intake air IS a concern... and they're also made from materials much less sturdy and durable than the super-materials that commonly exist in sci-fi.

Per the OSM, the VF-1's engines don't use the intake air as anything other than a medium for compression and flash-heating to provide thrust... it's not actually integral to the operation of the engine except as the propellant (no combustion). They're designed to operate underwater thanks to their ion engine component (which has real-world applications in boating right now), and in space as a hybrid of fusion rocket and ion engine technology (not dissimilar from Star Trek's impulse drive).

The Robotech version doesn't seem to be any different in that respect...

I don't see it as an established fact since for 15years it was the exact opposite. There is no evidence w/n the 85ep to support HGs "fact" and everything that points in the other direction.

No, for 15 years it was unstated whether that was the case or not... except in works that have only tangential relation to Robotech proper. Now it has been stated. There was no prior, contradictory fact.

The Main reason we don't see those work camps or the FoL in NG though is because they where never depicted in GCM. RT's 85ep is entirely recycled animation, so HG was limited in what they can depict visually, but they have much greater freedom in what they can depict through audio/dialogue.

Except, of course, that the dialog is demonstrably unreliable in many cases like this one... where characters who would have no idea what's what are making vague references to things that don't exist or events that they have no knowledge of.

[ShadowLogan]

There is no mention or depiction of those operating conditions causing any extra mechanical work for the ground crew, which would be consistent with the OSM. These are hard-wearing machines.

And how often does mention of mechanical work actually come up in general in the show? Its rare that the show brings up the issue with dialogue, even in the background. So it really doesn't prove anything.

Per the OSM, the VF-1's engines don't use the intake air as anything other than a medium for compression and flash-heating to provide thrust... it's not actually integral to the operation of the engine except as the propellant (no combustion). They're designed to operate underwater thanks to their ion engine component (which has real-world applications in boating right now), and in space as a hybrid of fusion rocket and ion engine technology (not dissimilar from Star Trek's impulse drive).

The intakes can still become clogged, or jammed though. They are just as vulnerable to mechanical failure. For them to continue operating would require they switch to pure rocket mode, and pure rocket mode would require they use more fuel mass per second (or drastically increase the velocity the exhaust is travelling at) since they can't compress the air to provide additional mass to generate thrust.

No, for 15 years it was unstated whether that was the case or not... except in works that have only tangential relation to Robotech proper. Now it has been stated. There was no prior, contradictory fact.

And those works are all in basic agreement about this topic though, so even if it was unstated in the period it would be defacto statement that is what HG said to do.

Except, of course, that the dialog is demonstrably unreliable in many cases like this one... where characters who would have no idea what's what are making vague references to things that don't exist or events that they have no knowledge of.

No it isn't. The Visuals do not depict everything that happens or is happening. I see no reason to doubt the various characters in this instance since they all are in basic agreement. Scott is a LT. CMDR, who knows what knowledge he has on the Invid, or experienced before hand (per Ep61 since the Invid appeared there hasn't been anyone else to fight, which means by current timeline something like 12years). Lancer has likely been gathering intelligence on Earth, and has contacts w/n the resistance/underground. Corg is an Invid Prince and likely to know about Invid plans.

The lack of visuals does not disqualify the various dialogue that establishes this stuff because of the multiple incidents and sources that support the dialogue in this matter.

[Seto Kaiba]

And how often does mention of mechanical work actually come up in general in the show? Its rare that the show brings up the issue with dialogue, even in the background.

Hangar crews do, however, show up quite frequently... and there's nothing mentioned in ANY source which would support your claim. You have no evidence, and therefore no valid argument. On the other hand, I'm not lacking for evidence to support my argument that the conditions represented in the show are not going to cause any impairment of performance...

The intakes can still become clogged, or jammed though.

Unless rocks the size of beach balls are suddenly becoming persistently airborne, this is not an issue while on land. Also, for all six intakes to become clogged at once would be pretty much unheard-of.

And those works are all in basic agreement about this topic though, so even if it was unstated in the period it would be defacto statement that is what HG said to do.

Those works are not part of Robotech proper, so their opinion on ANYTHING is meaningless... that's literally no different from citing fan fiction, particularly since HG has explicitly disowned the old novels as being low-quality and inconsistent with the Robotech setting, and the old RPG was made without a good deal of guidance from Harmony Gold per Kevin Siembieda's own account of its creation (as given on Space Station Liberty's podcast).

Once again, you have no leg to stand on here...

Do come back when you have actual evidence, but until then... for you to continue would be quite pointless.

[ShadowLogan]

Hangar crews do, however, show up quite frequently... and there's nothing mentioned in ANY source which would support your claim. You have no evidence, and therefore no valid argument. On the other hand, I'm not lacking for evidence to support my argument that the conditions represented in the show are not going to cause any impairment of performance...

That they show I don't dispute. However it is rare to listen in on what they might encounter during repairs and such.

Unless rocks the size of beach balls are suddenly becoming persistently airborne, this is not an issue while on land. Also, for all six intakes to become clogged at once would be pretty much unheard-of.

Actually no to the size. Your looking for an individual sized object, when the result can also come from smaller particles working together.

that's literally no different from citing fan fiction, particularly since HG has explicitly disowned the old novels as being low-quality and inconsistent with the Robotech setting, and the old RPG was made without a good deal of guidance from Harmony Gold per Kevin Siembieda's own account of its creation (as given on Space Station Liberty's podcast).

They aren't fan fiction though. They where official sanctioned products. That the current HG doesn't like them is noted, but they still have done what essentially amounts to a recton for the sake of a recton, not a clarification.

[Seto Kaiba]

That they show I don't dispute. However it is rare to listen in on what they might encounter during repairs and such.

Perhaps in Robotech, but at no point in ANY source is any difficulty relating to atmospheric debris ever identified for the VF-1 (or any other craft in Robotech or the originals). You're asserting "this must be the case" in the (shockingly) absolute absence of any corroborative evidence.

Actually no to the size. Your looking for an individual sized object, when the result can also come from smaller particles working together.

Again, zero evidence of this ever being an issue in any of the original shows or Robotech.

They aren't fan fiction though. They where official sanctioned products.

Yes, they were official products... past tense. The problem with your argument (well, the biggest one) is that that old material was never, EVER presented as an approved resource for the series.

It's become something of a bad habit for Robotech fans to throw the word "retcon" around to mean "anything Harmony Gold says about the story that I don't like", but it's not a retcon to say "This material that was never a part of the official story is still not a part of the official story".

Likewise, it's also not a retcon for them to say "This is where Reflex Point is" when there has never been a statement of its location in any official source for the series. When they established that Reflex Point was the hive in the Thunder Bay area (a location where the Inbit were shown to have part of the massive hive complex the OSM calls Reflex Point), they didn't contradict the series because the series never says where New Macross City or Monument City are... that's a difference from the OSM, which explicitly identifies that Macross City is in Alaska, near Grand Cannon 1 (and the Yukon-Charlie Rivers National Preserve), and also isn't contradicted by anything in the old RPG or novels, neither of which ever presented themselves as an accurate or sanctioned reference for the series.

[ShadowLogan]

Perhaps in Robotech, but at no point in ANY source is any difficulty relating to atmospheric debris ever identified for the VF-1 (or any other craft in Robotech or the originals). You're asserting "this must be the case" in the (shockingly) absolute absence of any corroborative evidence.

Super-Science can only go so far to ignoring issues in the real world.

Again, zero evidence of this ever being an issue in any of the original shows or Robotech.

The original shows don't concern me. However, NG episode "Sand Storms". We see a dust storm w/blackout conditions, and the team is holed up in a cave. That could indicate they can't operate under those conditions as PC doesn't seem to be in short supply (water is) by the dialogue.

Yes, they were official products... past tense. The problem with your argument (well, the biggest one) is that that old material was never, EVER presented as an approved resource for the series.

That they are in the past I don't dispute. However, the fact that all those products had similarities in approaching various questions is either one big coincidence they all worked out or there was some input from HG.

It's become something of a bad habit for Robotech fans to throw the word "retcon" around to mean "anything Harmony Gold says about the story that I don't like", but it's not a retcon to say "This material that was never a part of the official story is still not a part of the official story".

Actually it is a recton in the sense that this identification of the location (and other issues) are part of HG's rebooted 2000-ish continuity (Yune-verse), not the original RT continuity (Macek-verse) from '85 (which did not give any indication the sites are linked).

[Seto Kaiba]

The original shows don't concern me.

They DO concern Harmony Gold... and Robotech, being that they're the source of almost all of the show's plot, characters, and technical material. Your argument is made all the weaker by attempting to dismiss any evidence inconvenient to you without justification. Even the people who wrote the official material for Robotech considered the original shows to be in the top tier of sources.

However, NG episode "Sand Storms". We see a dust storm w/blackout conditions, and the team is holed up in a cave. That could indicate they can't operate under those conditions as PC doesn't seem to be in short supply (water is) by the dialogue.

*heavy sigh*

They state the reason they're hiding in a cave in the episode, and it has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the atmospheric conditions affecting their vehicles. The reason they're hiding out in a cave is stated to be nothing fancier than to hide from the Invid forces that've been chasing them since they blew up the hive in the previous episode. The only time the weather comes up as a hindrance to travel is travel ON FOOT, the same goes for the sandstorm.

That they are in the past I don't dispute. However, the fact that all those products had similarities in approaching various questions is either one big coincidence they all worked out or there was some input from HG.

That they're both wildly inaccurate compared to the actual Robotech story is not in dispute either... and the fact that one missed the mark by design, while the other missed it due to a lack of support (per the writer's own account) does not augur well for the idea of a coherent agenda.

Actually it is a recton in the sense that this identification of the location (and other issues) are part of HG's rebooted 2000-ish continuity (Yune-verse), not the original RT continuity (Macek-verse) from '85 (which did not give any indication the sites are linked).

*shakes head*

Nope, that's just the application of "retcon" to mean "Tommy said something I don't like".