Robotech Academy Kickstarter

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Robotech Academy

What a wonderfully horrible idea: get fans to donate to raise 500k to fund a 22-minute Robotech episode to use as a trailer. This has all kinds of potential to be godawful.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hehehehehe...

This is it, boys and girls. This is the last gasp for Robotech. So much for going out with some dignity.

It was a clear sign that the end is near when Harmony Gold's own staff started to point fingers at their own management, claiming they couldn't make new Robotech animation because Harmony Gold itself wasn't willing to put its money behind its own products. They recently gave up hoping and praying that the totally dead-in-the-water proposed live-action movie would raise their profile in the eyes of investors so the next installment could have a budget that wasn't some executive's lunch money and decided to try to move forward with development with the pittance management was willing to give them.

Now, an overt admission that Harmony Gold's management thinks so little of Robotech that they will not fund development of this new project. They have so little confidence in this project that they won't invest their own money in it, despite the fact that this is THEIR OWN PRODUCT LINE. They want YOU to do it, so that way you're the only ones who get screwed WHEN it fails. They're not even being subtle about it... the whole draw is nothing but "This was Carl's idea, honest!" and a vaguely Macross-esque logo.

Bend over, Robotech fans... HERE IT COMES AGAIN!

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

This shows a complete and total lack of faith on the part of Frank Agrama in the creative staff. This begs the question of why he doesn't simply drek-can all of them and get a more competent staff? And really, why drag poor Carl's name through the mud? Is Tommy really so scared of putting his name on anything for fear that if it implodes it will drag him down? Seriously, business is about risk and if you're this risk averse, DON'T GO INTO BUSINESS!

[Arnie100]

This sounds bad if HG doesn't want to put their own money into it...

[taalismn]

This sounds bad if HG doesn't want to put their own money into it...

I think we've known for years that HG is the anchor sinking the franchise through mismanagement, missed opportunities, and sheer negligence.
And I've learned that anything that makes Seto that maniacally HAPPY is not a good thing.

[Seto Kaiba]

I think we've known for years that HG is the anchor sinking the franchise through mismanagement, missed opportunities, and sheer negligence.

Let's let this be the theme song for this particular Kickstarter... it just feels right.

It's a bit of an interesting coincidence, but there's at least one post on the Kickstarter's comments section wondering how badly Palladium and Ninja Division's mishandled Kickstarter poisoned the well.

And I've learned that anything that makes Seto that maniacally HAPPY is not a good thing.

Really? Maybe I should start talking to the zoning board about that doom fortress...

[Alpha 11]

The sad thing is, it looks like the got some halfway descent people to do it. I just got mix feelings about this. On the one hand I'm happy they are actually trying to get something new and original, but then what you guys said. I want them to get it done, but at the same time, I want Macross, all of it, over here and dub. And you can say, one of the few things that has been keeping Robotech above water, has been Palladium. Which is most likely why HG is still around today. Like I said, I just don't know, and remember, this is my "first love" here.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

This idea sounds suspiciously like the stillborn Robotech:Mars Force idea....

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum ... forumid=11

[Seto Kaiba]

The sad thing is, it looks like the got some halfway descent people to do it.

They got amateurs to do it... probably because, after the nonevent that was RTSC, they can't afford professionals.

[Chronicler]

Ok, rant time, time for me to get on my box and say a few things that are of my opinion. No one has to listen to it, I just want to get it out.

Harmony Gold, you suck. Plane and simple. You have sunk the Robotech franchise with the biggest incompetence I have ever witness in a business, more so than 4Kids ever did with anything they had put out (yes anime fans, I went there). You guys where so bad at this you decided to block the good stuff that is Macross so you wouldn't be shown up by other companies that do a better job then you in dubbing or any other part of the American Anime industry. You suck as a business so bad, that I'm starting to think I can do a better job, and I only had business courses in high school, you however probably have a college degree in it collectively. That is pretty bad.

Also why do you have to drag a dead guys name in the mud for your mistakes. WHY? I know Carl screwed up, but really he deserved better. From what I have read he wanted just Macross in its true form, but you ass hats wanted more episodes, and Americanize it because people wouldn't understand a Japanese main character. Really, really? And when Robotech failed, and you claimed right for Macross then why the hell didn't you just give us Macross.

You know who would legitimately do a better job with Robotech? Kevin Siembieda and the rest of Palladium. Seriously the dude has just as much passion about Robotech as I am, and he was their when it first came out. I didn't even exist back then. I would trust him on this one just for the fact that he is a bigger fan than I am.

You know what? Just sell Robotech, just sell it if you are not even going to back it, or support it in any way. Also just let Funamation get the rights for the other Macross stuff, you already pissed off 100% of anime fans in the US, and pretty much pissed of the creators.

In short, stop what your doing, sell the right, or give it to someone that will do something about it, and maybe, just maybe something good would come out of it for what's left of the fans.

I just need it to get this out there, I am a fan of Robotech, just not Harmony Gold.

Seriously Palladium Books would be my top candidate to get the rights, maybe then they can have free rain on the universe to put more books and cool stuff.

end rant

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, rant time, time for me to get on my box and say a few things that are of my opinion. No one has to listen to it, I just want to get it out.

Far be it from me to keep a man from his catharsis... though there are one or two sins you laid at Harmony Gold's door that may not (technically) be their fault.

Also why do you have to drag a dead guys name in the mud for your mistakes. WHY? I know Carl screwed up, but really he deserved better. From what I have read he wanted just Macross in its true form, but you ass hats wanted more episodes, and Americanize it because people wouldn't understand a Japanese main character. Really, really?

Being the last person who would ordinarily defend Harmony Gold (which, I'm sure, they regard as being like receiving a pat on the back from Satan at the gates of Hell), I'd point out that there's not much they can honestly do to damage Macek's reputation more than the man himself did when he was alive.

After all, it'd be hard to top the way his name isn't just closely associated with epic failure in the American anime industry... it's literally a term for failing SO hard your input is considered a mockery of the original work. On top of that, he's been known as "the Antichrist of Anime"... which is NOT a term of endearment in the industry. I'm not sure there's any damage they can do to by associating his name with Robotech Academy... his reputation was mud to begin with, so dragging it through s'more mud won't necessarily make it any muddier.

I know they're just using his name in an effort to gouge the pockets of the nostalgia-blinded fans, but the strategy doesn't make sense to me on a logical level. Why would they want to claim it was Macek's vision when the man's track record demonstrates that every time he tried to create some original Robotech material, the end result was a godawful literal abortion?

As far as the decision to combine Macross with other shows, that wasn't Harmony Gold's choice. It's something that was forced on them by their partnership with Revell, because Revell was trying to exploit it to salvage their failed Transformers knockoff and were holding the Macross toy rights hostage.





One thing that struck me as odd, that I didn't notice until Rabid suggested this might be an attempt at reviving another aborted title... is that this story concept is one they tried before, unsuccessfully, as a comic book back in the 90s.

[ShadowLogan]

What a wonderfully horrible idea: get fans to donate to raise 500k to fund a 22-minute Robotech episode to use as a trailer. This has all kinds of potential to be godawful.

No kidding. Count me out.

They got amateurs to do it... probably because, after the nonevent that was RTSC, they can't afford professionals.

Or RT:LLA given how long ago RT:TSC came out.

You guys where so bad at this you decided to block the good stuff that is Macross so you wouldn't be shown up by other companies that do a better job then you in dubbing or any other part of the American Anime industry.

You do know that HG isn't the only source of dubbed anime correct. IMHO I don't know if I would say the "good stuff" requires Macross.

As far as the decision to combine Macross with other shows, that wasn't Harmony Gold's choice. It's something that was forced on them by their partnership with Revell, because Revell was trying to exploit it to salvage their failed Transformers knockoff and were holding the Macross toy rights hostage.

Part of it wasn't Revell though, part of it was also to meet broadcast standards for syndication that required 65 episodes at the time. Macross is 36episodes, short of a lot of editing work ala ep38 (IINM, this is the episode had whole scene orders changed) and/or ep37 to create additional episodes, they would never get the market they where after in syndication (which was a 5-day a week time slot).

Granted they did have other options to make it work by combining it with other shows, they did not need to make a unified story.

Revell is responsible for the name change though.

One thing that struck me as odd, that I didn't notice until Rabid suggested this might be an attempt at reviving another aborted title... is that this story concept is one they tried before, unsuccessfully, as a comic book back in the 90s.

Based on the title alone that is what I was thinking that they where revisiting one of the comic lines from the 90s.

Really? Maybe I should start talking to the zoning board about that doom fortress...

If you need to talk to a zoning board about that "doom fortress" you do not deserve to have a "doom fortress".

[ilexgarodan]

I don't get the blasting that HG's getting, here. It's more Robotech! Isn't that what we all want?

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't get the blasting that HG's getting, here.

You been under a rock for the last thirty years, friend?

It's more Robotech! Isn't that what we all want?

The answer to your question varies from individual to individual, but in this case seems to largely be in the territory between "No, not if Harmony Gold has so little faith in the concept that they'd rather beg the fan base to pay for it and take all the risk of it being garbage." and "No, why on Earth would we want another installment of the industry's unfunniest joke?".

For Macross fans and people who care about quality, this is as unattractive a proposition as it gets... a crowd-funded series pilot allegedly conceived by Carl Macek, whose track record as head of RT was a string of abject failures resulting from him not knowing the industry or his audience, produced by amateur animators with "creative" oversight from the same people responsible for the deservedly-mocked Shadow Chronicles "movie" (which is really an OVA that was canned after one episode).

In short, confidence in Harmony Gold and Robotech is justifiably at an all-time low... and quite a few fans see this as an attempt to preemptively assign the blame to the fans if the project doesn't succeed.

EDIT: There is, at least, a silver lining for Macross fans... when this new project fails, and it's "when" not "if", it could be the long-awaited last straw that prompts Harmony Gold's senior management to accept what the rest of the industry has known since about 1990: Robotech is a relic of the bad practices of the American anime industry's formative years, and has no legitimate reason to continue existing when the industry has decades of precedent showing that rewrites aren't what audiences want and all it achieves is obstructing licensing of the show it was originally created to promote in the west.

Or RT:LLA given how long ago RT:TSC came out.

I'd go with Shadow Chronicles for that comparison, since that was also the pilot episode of a series... what was supposed to be either a three- or four-part OVA, which Harmony Gold canned after just a single episode.

You do know that HG isn't the only source of dubbed anime correct.

Come on buddy, I know you know that isn't what he meant. Harmony Gold is blocking other companies from licensing Macross using the trademarks they took out on the name and logo AFTER they attempted to threaten importers into not carrying Macross goods.

IMHO I don't know if I would say the "good stuff" requires Macross.

Sales of Robotech merchandise and the broadcast ratings for Robotech worldwide would argue that it does... or, indeed, that Macross is the ONLY part of Robotech that could be called "the good stuff". (Understandably so, since the other two thirds of Robotech were made from titles that were shameless attempts to copy Macross's success in Japan, which were, respectively, a colossal flop and a mediocre performer.)

Part of it wasn't Revell though, part of it was also to meet broadcast standards for syndication that required 65 episodes at the time.

According to Harmony Gold's own account from RT Art 1, it was Revell who insisted that the show be run on broadcast television... because, again, they wanted to salvage their investment in creating an knockoff of Hasbro and Takara-Tomy's The Transformers using Macross, Dougram, and Orguss, necessitating Harmony Gold's efforts to get it up to syndication length.

If you need to talk to a zoning board about that "doom fortress" you do not deserve to have a "doom fortress".

Not everybody is lucky enough to be born the prince of a small European dictatorship like that Doctor Doom guy... besides, do you have any idea how hard it is to find an unoccupied volcano island in this day in age?

[ilexgarodan]

You been under a rock for the last thirty years, friend?

Well, I'm not 30 years old, yet. Also, it's unnecessary to insult me.

The answer to your question varies from individual to individual, but in this case seems to largely be in the territory between "No, not if Harmony Gold has so little faith in the concept that they'd rather beg the fan base to pay for it and take all the risk of it being garbage." and "No, why on Earth would we want another installment of the industry's unfunniest joke?".

Do you speak for the majority of fans? No? Didn't think so.

For Macross fans and people who care about quality, this is as unattractive a proposition as it gets... a crowd-funded series pilot allegedly conceived by Carl Macek, whose track record as head of RT was a string of abject failures resulting from him not knowing the industry or his audience, produced by amateur animators with "creative" oversight from the same people responsible for the deservedly-mocked Shadow Chronicles "movie" (which is really an OVA that was canned after one episode).

You must realise that the projects that failed in the past (i.e., Sentinels, the Movie, 3000) failed for multiple reasons. The Sentinels was canned because of the Yen was increasing in value. Ergo, it became too expensive for a small production company and a small toy manufacturer to fund. The Movie failed because of Cannon Films only gave the film a limited release. 3000 never got off the ground because Netter Digital, the company behind the animation, went under, and the premise of the show was too far removed from the franchise we know and love.

I will admit that Shadow Chronicles wasn't as good as it could have been, but you must remember that Harmony Gold is a small production studio. Their funds are miniscule, compared to larger studios.

In short, confidence in Harmony Gold and Robotech is justifiably at an all-time low

Then why are you here?

Robotech is a relic of the bad practices of the American anime industry's formative years, and has no legitimate reason to continue existing when the industry has decades of precedent showing that rewrites aren't what audiences want and all it achieves is obstructing licensing of the show it was originally created to promote in the west.

That has to be the worst case of revisionist history I've ever seen.

EDIT: In addition, I'd like to point you guys towards viewtopic.php?f=9&t=140245

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, I'm not 30 years old, yet. Also, it's unnecessary to insult me.

It was a serious question... because I can't conceive of a reason that anyone who professes to be a fan of Robotech wouldn't know why Harmony Gold is so richly deserving of a good blasting. For the record, I've also got a way to go before the big 3-0.

Do you speak for the majority of fans? No? Didn't think so.

I never professed to, so kindly don't put words in my mouth, friend.

What I DID say is that the answer varies from individual to individual, but in this case it seems to largely be a mixture of fans finding the idea of having to crowd-fund a pilot that may or may not even be produced as a series extremely unattractive, and those who simply find the idea of continuing to pretend Robotech has any chance of being a success painfully unfunny.

You must realise that the projects that failed in the past (i.e., Sentinels, the Movie, 3000) failed for multiple reasons.

Many of which can be traced back to shoddy creative direction, a failure to understand their audience and the industry as a whole, and the legal constraints imposed on them by not having any original IP.

To wit, the Sentinels project was already in dire straits before the exchange rate crashed and mercy killed the failing project, having suffered a change in writers because the Tatsunoko-supplied writers went and told Macek that his story was a tangled mess and run into legal problems and other obstacles with an embarrassingly small budget. Robotech: the Movie was earmarked for failure before production even started, after Tatsunoko told Macek point blank he was not allowed to use the material he wanted to use for the film (because they couldn't authorize its use either, and were more interested in promoting DYRL?) instead, and was pulled from release in the US because the test audiences hated it. Robotech 3000 was canceled because, according to Carl Macek, the fans flatly rejected such a dramatic separation from the style and characters of the Japanese original... the financial trouble suffered by Netter Digital was a consequence of the project's cancellation (they had invested heavily in the project).

There were multiple reasons, but failures of creative direction are ever at the heart of Robotech's many failures and false starts.

I will admit that Shadow Chronicles wasn't as good as it could have been, but you must remember that Harmony Gold is a small production studio. Their funds are miniscule, compared to larger studios.

According to Harmony Gold's own staff, the quality of the Shadow Chronicles "movie" suffered due to the complete absence of outside investors and Harmony Gold senior management's unwillingness to back it with more than the bare minimum amount of their own money. It was an 88 minute "movie" made on what would've been sufficient for a 22 minute TV episode in the modern industry.

Their funds are minuscule because there's no confidence in the brand... both on the part of any potential investors and Harmony Gold itself. That lack of confidence has reached its fullest expression in this most recent project... they apparently have so little confidence in it that they're trying to get the fans to pay their development costs instead of risking their own money, and the only "studio" willing to work on it is a fan film group composed entirely of amateurs. That says something.

Then why are you here?

*points to the title of the forum*

Macross II, friend. That's my bag. 's getting a blu-ray release this month, in fact. Though I'm also occasionally a useful repository of OSM information for Robotech fans to draw on. It gives me some good opportunities to practice my Japanese-to-English translation skills.

Also, I have a little bit of nostalgic interest in Robotech... but I'm not fool enough to think the show has any chance of a "comeback".

That has to be the worst case of revisionist history I've ever seen.

It's a simple statement of fact... you can find dismissals and condemnations of Robotech for being a rewrite going back as far as 1991 in American hobby press. Even announcements of Streamline's side-by-side release of Robotech and the originals had a number of reviews that all but forgot to mention the Robotech half of the Robotech Perfect Collection. For recent examples of this in action, there's One Piece... the 4Kids dub of which was so thoroughly reviled that they dropped the license because of poor sales and ratings, only for other companies to pick it up and run with it to considerable success as an accurately-dubbed series.

For the last point, what has Robotech achieved in 30 years to justify its existence? It had one series in the 80s which got mediocre ratings and had no original material, it got canceled partway into its first run during its "big comeback" on cable in the 90s before it even got to the New Generation, it's had a couple of profoundly unsuccessful attempts to create original material, and it's squatted on the Macross license to keep other companies from releasing Macross in the west. In short, it's accomplished nothing but the obstruction of the show Carl Macek originally wanted to promote in the west.



EDIT: To the OP, I apologize for the departure from the thread's original topic... I'll get back to the topic at hand.

[Alrik Vas]

EDIT: To the OP, I apologize for the departure from the thread's original topic... I'll get back to the topic at hand.

I'll believe it when i see it, you annoyingly accurate naysayer!

[Chris0013]

They keep coming up with new ideas and not following thru...Sentinels, Shadow Chronicles. Let's relaunch Robotech...but then just drop the ball.

HG really needs to grow a pair and take some risk on what is probably the biggest property they have. With Netflix and others developing original content I could see them being able to actually pull off a new series.

[Seto Kaiba]

EDIT: To the OP, I apologize for the departure from the thread's original topic... I'll get back to the topic at hand.

I'll believe it when i see it, you annoyingly accurate naysayer!

When there are this many pissed-off or disappointed people, it's hard to feel good about hitting the nail on the head.

The comments section on the Kickstarter is quickly devolving into a flame war over whether or not trying to use Kickstarter to fund development of a pilot that may never be picked up by a network is them ripping off the fans.

[ilexgarodan]

[snip]It had one series in the 80s which got mediocre ratings

Again, more revisionist history. Based on what I've read, Robotech was a hit when it came out. Sure, it didn't make as big of a splash as Transformers made, but it was still popular. How else would you explain multiple comic book licenses (from 1985 to 1998, I'd might add), a line of successful novels, roleplaying games and supplements, toys, and more licensed products? They wouldn't have been made if Robotech wasn't popular.

The comments section on the Kickstarter is quickly devolving into a flame war over whether or not trying to use Kickstarter to fund development of a pilot that may never be picked up by a network is them ripping off the fans.

Not really. We'd be getting exactly what's being advertised: a pilot. Now, whether the pilot gets picked up by a network is another story, which is out of our hands.

[Seto Kaiba]

Again, more revisionist history.

Realism... based on the Nielsen ratings. Its share was pretty low, and tanked at about episode 38.

(This is generally credited to a mixture of Harmony Gold having left the ending title card in the final episode of Macross, giving viewers the mistaken impression the show was over, and dissatisfaction with the continuation not featuring the Macross characters.)

Based on what I've read, Robotech was a hit when it came out.

Because you've been reading Harmony Gold's revisionist history.

How else would you explain multiple comic book licenses (from 1985 to 1998, I'd might add), [...]

Easily enough... look at who the licensees were. Small, third-rate independent comic companies that were bought out or went out of business. Comico Comics, the first licensee, went bankrupt in 1988 and lost the license in 1989. The Eternity Comics imprint was shut down as a non-performer when its parent company (Malibu) was bought by Marvel. Harmony Gold actually revoked their license with Academy Comics (a tiny independent comic house) for poor quality work after just two years, and Antarctic Press is the only comic licensee that still exists, though their license was ALSO revoked by Harmony Gold, supposedly due to poor sales. They farmed it out to any company that would take it, and the only takers were small time.

a line of successful novels,

Debatable in the extreme... considering the novels were (and still are) frequently lambasted more by the Robotech fandom than anyone else. To the extent that Harmony Gold felt they had to add a rule to their forums to outlaw bashing threads about the novels.

roleplaying games and supplements, toys, and more licensed products? They wouldn't have been made if Robotech wasn't popular.

Yes they would... like the comic licensees, Palladium is a small-time bit player in the RPG industry. We love 'em dearly, but it's a mom and pop shop in a market full of corporations.

Toys? The old toy line was a flop, which is part of why Matchbox was unwilling to carry more of the cost behind Sentinels, and the Toynami lines saw a 66% drop in sales as soon as they weren't peddling the Macross designs. That ended in the MPC line's cancellation (though Harmony Gold staffers assert the typical sales were 1/2 of the limited edition run's stated limit, so they were only selling about 2,500 of the ~5,000 planned MPC New Gen runs). They only sell now in direct sales from the company's website.

Perspective's a hell of a depressing drug when it's Robotech.

's probably why this new project is being regarded so poorly... the fans are starting to see past the rose-tinted memories and revisionist history to the meat and bones of the situation. They're not liking what they see, and who can truly blame them? Harmony Gold's assuming that the fans will shell out megabucks just to be in the room with some complete industry nonentities... and even thoughtfully included nothing about the project except their right to refuse to tell you anything or even revoke your promised Kickstarter rewards at their discretion.

That's not the behavior of a successful franchise.

[ShadowLogan]

I'd go with Shadow Chronicles for that comparison, since that was also the pilot episode of a series... what was supposed to be either a three- or four-part OVA, which Harmony Gold canned after just a single episode.

Each is own really. On Amazon, the double pack has been cut to over half off last I looked. Clearly it isn't doing well at this point (usually takes longer to get stuff reduced like that) or its done so well they could do it (unlikely since other older material outside of RT still doesn't get that level of mark down from clearly more recognizable names).

Come on buddy, I know you know that isn't what he meant. Harmony Gold is blocking other companies from licensing Macross using the trademarks they took out on the name and logo AFTER they attempted to threaten importers into not carrying Macross goods.

I know, but HG isn't some unstoppable juggernaut either.

Sales of Robotech merchandise and the broadcast ratings for Robotech worldwide would argue that it does... or, indeed, that Macross is the ONLY part of Robotech that could be called "the good stuff". (Understandably so, since the other two thirds of Robotech were made from titles that were shameless attempts to copy Macross's success in Japan, which were, respectively, a colossal flop and a mediocre performer.)

Not what I was getting at, "Macross" is not the only "good stuff" out there either. Nor do I think RT should return to the approach of rewriting existing material or pulling from the OSM.

Not everybody is lucky enough to be born the prince of a small European dictatorship like that Doctor Doom guy... besides, do you have any idea how hard it is to find an unoccupied volcano island in this day in age?

Since when is any of that a requirement to construct a "doom fortress"? Clearly you are not ready to own and operate a "doom fortress" or even the lowly "hideout".

[ilexgarodan]

Honestly, it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall, here... The point I'm trying to make is that I'm optimistic about this.

[Seto Kaiba]

Each is own really. On Amazon, the double pack has been cut to over half off last I looked. Clearly it isn't doing well at this point (usually takes longer to get stuff reduced like that) [...]

The easiest way would be to contact the distributor and request sales numbers... this last one was done by A&E, right?

I know, but HG isn't some unstoppable juggernaut either.

But the letter of the law is on their side, for now...

Since when is any of that a requirement to construct a "doom fortress"? Clearly you are not ready to own and operate a "doom fortress" or even the lowly "hideout".

You cut me to the quick, sir!

Vengeance will be had as soon as I can find an appropriate animal theme and a temp agency willing to find me witless minions!

Honestly, it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall, here... The point I'm trying to make is that I'm optimistic about this.

The brick wall of reality is often a collision hazard for people driving while blinded by optimism.

Really, the telling thing is WHO is down on this idea. Normally you'd expect guys like ShadowLogan and Rabid Southern Cross Fan to adamantly support the idea of new Robotech development... especially something not directly tied to the OSM, but they're both against it. That's telling. That's like... two of the four horsemen of the apocalypse right there. Everyone expects it from me because I'm always "That Macross guy", but from THEM?

[Chronicler]

Honestly, it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall, here... The point I'm trying to make is that I'm optimistic about this.

And most of us are, it's just that we finally hit that wall. HG has screwed us so many times, and that can wear out optimism. Look, it's nice to see that you care about Robotech, most of us do. It's just that we are not willing to shell out the cash for a pilot that might not even make it.

Seriously HG should sell it to Kevin, or anyone else that has the gumption to do something with the property. Hell given the chance and money I might as well buy it and take risks, maybe even finally have macross stuff here.

In all seriousness we as fans are at the end of the rope hanging from a fiber.

[eliakon]

Honestly, it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall, here... The point I'm trying to make is that I'm optimistic about this.

You are Ilex. Most of the people ranting here, if you haven't noticed, are hard core fans who do not how the franchise has gone. The reasons are many and varied, but simply put the majority of the people posting here already hate HG and will take any opportunity to rage against it or belittle it. *shrugs* I my self am with you. I would rather see something, even something so-so rather than nothing. But then again I don't feel that the Robotech shows were all that great (or sacred). *shrugs*

My bad, typo.
it should say "Are hard core fans who do not care how the franchise has gone."
As in, they do not like the direction that it has (or has not, or what ever)taken since the 'original' show in the 80's.

[eliakon]

[snip]It had one series in the 80s which got mediocre ratings

Again, more revisionist history. Based on what I've read, Robotech was a hit when it came out. Sure, it didn't make as big of a splash as Transformers made, but it was still popular. How else would you explain multiple comic book licenses (from 1985 to 1998, I'd might add), a line of successful novels, roleplaying games and supplements, toys, and more licensed products? They wouldn't have been made if Robotech wasn't popular.

Wow, I can't believe that I'm going to say this.

While you guys have only read about it, I lived it.
Speaking as an authority of the life and times in the original age of Robotech (I'm old enough to have seen Robotech on the television during the original run *and* also remember how mad I was at the end of Symphony of Light when they said that the next episode was going to be a re-run of Boobytrap - get off my lawn), Yes Robotech was successful, but No it was nowhere successful as G.I. Joe and the Transformers (the de facto standard of 80's Golden Age Cartoons). Robotech was either shown early in the morning so kids could watch it before going off to school, or early afternoon before the magic 3:30-5:00 PM timeslot (where that was a solid 90 minutes of cartoon/commercial).

The reason why it seemed so successful with licensing, was simply because it was the 80's. Nothing could fail, and you could license any product into any line, and every license was just an extension to a different revenue stream. The best would be a successful toy line from Hasbro or Mattel. Tyco or Matchbox or worse, Playmates just didn't cut it. If you couldn't get Hasbro or Mattel, then you had to flood the market everywhere else.... a comic line from a second rate (Comico) or third rate independent publisher (Malibu/Eternity/Avalanche) whose entire reason for existence was because of the Robotech license, a successful RPG line, and novels which were born out of a successful RPG product sales.


Look, I love Robotech as much as everyone here... it's something that defined me in the 80's but I've always been a realist in regards to it.... it wasn't that it was wildly successful. It was and always has been just that it was *there* and they didn't have the strong enough foundation with their merchandise empire to carry it through.


Here's a great case in point: My Little Pony in the 80's had a crap ass cartoon, and no one cared for it.... even my kid sister hated the cartoon - but she collected *every* one of those Hasbro ponies. This in the era of making 30 minute commercials for toys aimed squarely at boys. Now... Ponies have their own fanbois and new shows, and Robotech is regulated to Kickstarter.



God I feel so old now......

AMEN BROTHER! PREACH ON!!

Seriously, thank you very much for that ray of sunshine post.

[Alrik Vas]

EDIT: To the OP, I apologize for the departure from the thread's original topic... I'll get back to the topic at hand.

I'll believe it when i see it, you annoyingly accurate naysayer!

When there are this many pissed-off or disappointed people, it's hard to feel good about hitting the nail on the head.

The comments section on the Kickstarter is quickly devolving into a flame war over whether or not trying to use Kickstarter to fund development of a pilot that may never be picked up by a network is them ripping off the fans.

I am Hikaru's complete lack of surprise.

[Seto Kaiba]

Most of the people ranting here, if you haven't noticed, are hard core fans who do not how the franchise has gone.

Demonstrably fallacious character assassination aside, most of the people here in this thread have a much better grasp of the actual, objective reality of what Robotech was and is than Robotech's fans usually have. Indeed, many of them (myself excluded) are usually among Robotech's most vocal and visible defenders. There are still a number of Robotech fans like ilexgarodan who bought Harmony Gold's heavily revisionist rose-tinted version of Robotech's history, and haven't yet noticed that it usually falls apart the minute you check their claims against the evidence.

After all, if Robotech is so successful, why don't they have $500,000 of their own money to put into developing a pilot for a new series? Simple answer? It's not.

To simply try and dismiss them as "the malcontents" does them a severe disservice... especially since it's usually these people you're trying to dismiss protesting that Robotech still has some life left in it. I think Chronicler probably did a more eloquent job of expressing the reasons for their discontent than I could.

After all, a quick look at the Kickstarter's comments page is enough to prove that it's not just the fans who know the facts who think this Kickstarter-funding a pilot's development is a bad idea.

[eliakon]

Most of the people ranting here, if you haven't noticed, are hard core fans who do not how the franchise has gone.

Demonstrably fallacious character assassination aside, most of the people here in this thread have a much better grasp of the actual, objective reality of what Robotech was and is than Robotech's fans usually have. Indeed, many of them (myself excluded) are usually among Robotech's most vocal and visible defenders. There are still a number of Robotech fans like ilexgarodan who bought Harmony Gold's heavily revisionist rose-tinted version of Robotech's history, and haven't yet noticed that it usually falls apart the minute you check their claims against the evidence.

After all, if Robotech is so successful, why don't they have $500,000 of their own money to put into developing a pilot for a new series? Simple answer? It's not.

To simply try and dismiss them as "the malcontents" does them a severe disservice... especially since it's usually these people you're trying to dismiss protesting that Robotech still has some life left in it. I think Chronicler probably did a more eloquent job of expressing the reasons for their discontent than I could.

After all, a quick look at the Kickstarter's comments page is enough to prove that it's not just the fans who know the facts who think this Kickstarter-funding a pilot's development is a bad idea.

Sorry, that was a typo, it was supposed to say it "who do not care how the franchise as gone."
As in, they do not like the direction that it has gone in since the 'original' series.

[Seto Kaiba]

Sorry, that was a typo, it was supposed to say it "who do not care how the franchise as gone."
As in, they do not like the direction that it has gone in since the 'original' series.

I'm pretty sure that if I looked through your posts, I'd find some evidence that you yourself aren't satisfied with everything that's been done with the franchise either. Not liking what's been done with the franchise somewhere along the way is probably the one thing all Robotech fans have in common, and it's not a reason to try to dismiss the people speaking critically of the Kickstarter with "Oh, they just hate HG".



As a side note, it seems like the average confidence level in this Kickstarter's way lower than the Palladium-led one for RRT. Take out the two significant outliers, and the average contribution is only $47.50. I wonder if the Palladium Kickstarter really did poison the well.

[ilexgarodan]

I don't know why I even bothered expressing my optimism, given the amount of venom here. Can't a guy get at least some excitement about something new for Robotech? I have to hand it to you, Seto, you certainly know how to defecate on the hopes of others.

[Arnie100]

Well; Imagine if the kickstarter fails.

[eliakon]

Sorry, that was a typo, it was supposed to say it "who do not care how the franchise as gone."
As in, they do not like the direction that it has gone in since the 'original' series.

I'm pretty sure that if I looked through your posts, I'd find some evidence that you yourself aren't satisfied with everything that's been done with the franchise either.

Good luck Seriously. I am pretty much militantly indifferent about it though. To me its 'just a show', and not even a really good one. But I have had fun watching stuff. *shrugs*

Not liking what's been done with the franchise somewhere along the way is probably the one thing all Robotech fans have in common, and it's not a reason to try to dismiss the people speaking critically of the Kickstarter with "Oh, they just hate HG".

And there is a difference between speaking critically of something and saying that there is nothing positive at all about it, the group that produced it, the people involved, and that its all doom and disaster.

As a side note, it seems like the average confidence level in this Kickstarter's way lower than the Palladium-led one for RRT. Take out the two significant outliers, and the average contribution is only $47.50. I wonder if the Palladium Kickstarter really did poison the well.

Probably. I would imagine that for a while at least, nothing with the words Robotech and Kickstarter in the same place will do well.

[ShadowLogan]

The easiest way would be to contact the distributor and request sales numbers... this last one was done by A&E, right?

Unless Amazon's Product Details are in error that would be correct. But the discount is at Amazon's end presumably, so they may just be trying to unload the product because it isn't moving fast enough and willing to take the loss. They have some print-on-demand titles that are a bit pricy (understandable), and even they don't go that deep (at least the ones I've looked at getting) when they offer discounts.

Though in this case I do have to wonder how much of the package only deal (either bundled with TSC or complete series) has impacted sales. I know that is part of the reason I'm disinclined to acquire it (being described as a glorified clip show is another, those are the type of episodes I usually skip as a matter of course) either directly or put down as a gift (did that for TSC, while curious what I had heard did not thrill me).

But the letter of the law is on their side, for now.

True, but if the Hasbro vs HG case that was dismissed (at both parties request) is any indication it might not be as clear cut as that (since we don't know the details of why it was dismissed at their joint request). Plus there might be the option of simply paying HG off, though that might be unpalatable to many.

You cut me to the quick, sir!

Vengeance will be had as soon as I can find an appropriate animal theme and a temp agency willing to find me witless minions!

Quick to cut you off. No. But that you don't have the minions yet shows you really aren't ready for a real "doom fortress". Besides, it might be more cost effective to by pass temp agencies for minions and hire direct (and/or under the table).

Honestly, it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall, here... The point I'm trying to make is that I'm optimistic about this.

As Seto and Chronicler have said the track record is pretty bad. You can be optimistic if you want, but should still be tempered by some dose of reality.

Some of us aren't against new RT material per say (though I will profess that I want good material), but rather the method that is being used to fund production of it. HG isn't some startup looking to break-out, they are an established company after all with a track record that investors can reference to see if there is a viable return on investment.

Seriously HG should sell it to Kevin, or anyone else that has the gumption to do something with the property. Hell given the chance and money I might as well buy it and take risks, maybe even finally have macross stuff here.

Honestly I do not think selling it to Kevin would be a good idea. He already has a lot on his plate given his management style, and the cost of outright acquiring everything RT lock-stock-barrel might be out of his price range.

You need to get some one who can do something with it much more efficiently, that means some one with experience in the basic business (a Warner Brothers, Hasbro, Disney, DC, Marvel, etc) rather than another hobby/side-business like PB would.

Robotech was either shown early in the morning so kids could watch it before going off to school, or early afternoon before the magic 3:30-5:00 PM timeslot (where that was a solid 90 minutes of cartoon/commercial).

7:30am locally (for sure), and school (IIRC) started at 8am where I lived, I know I couldn't watch the entire episode (VCRed).

Sorry, that was a typo, it was supposed to say it "who do not care how the franchise as gone."

Oh I care about how the franchise has gone and I do not like it on many levels. I do not see this as a way to fix the direction.

As a side note, it seems like the average confidence level in this Kickstarter's way lower than the Palladium-led one for RRT. Take out the two significant outliers, and the average contribution is only $47.50. I wonder if the Palladium Kickstarter really did poison the well.

Another factor to consider is that some of the Palladium confidence might have been artificially boosted by those wanting them for purely NON-Robotech purposes (Macross OSM, Battletech, ex) that could care less about a new RT animation project.

It might be more interesting if the initial RRT was a pure RT game (one that wasn't slanted toward one era w/initial release), or PB had a chance to do the other eras (to get a better average).

[glitterboy2098]

honestly, i'm not interested in the kickstarter itself. i am curious whether they'll post some ofthe concept designs for the new mecha and stuff they've claimed their show would have. mecha for the UEEF that blends macross, southern cross, and mospeada styles (or even just macross and mospeada styles, given how HG treats the southern cross portion) sounds interesting. as does the children/disciples of zor badguys.. i wonder if they'll be just tyrolian (perhaps with interesting new bioroid like mecha) or if zentraedi elements would be included.

[SRoss]

The problem is the more you look at it the more it sounds like one of those "put something with the name out to maintain your claim to the rights" type projects. If they really wanted to revitalize the franchise they'd redo the original series with new animation. That's a project I'd back.

[mech798]

How else would you explain multiple comic book licenses (from 1985 to 1998, I'd might add), [...]

Easily enough... look at who the licensees were. Small, third-rate independent comic companies that were bought out or went out of business. Comico Comics, the first licensee, went bankrupt in 1988 and lost the license in 1989. The Eternity Comics imprint was shut down as a non-performer when its parent company (Malibu) was bought by Marvel. Harmony Gold actually revoked their license with Academy Comics (a tiny independent comic house) for poor quality work after just two years, and Antarctic Press is the only comic licensee that still exists, though their license was ALSO revoked by Harmony Gold, supposedly due to poor sales. They farmed it out to any company that would take it, and the only takers were small time.

I've worked in the comic's industry and robotech comics, outside of Comico's work which was essentially just a repeat of the story, had levels of quality that ranged from...okay, to horrible. I suppose we should thank them for helping us get the character designs for the women that we so loved in Shadow Chronicles being that the Waltrip brothers were known for essentially drawing breasts that ranged from "that's excessive" to "how are they *walking*?" The quality of art was also very low and as Seito says, the desperation to get people to do the art resulted in what could be considered the rise of "licensed fanfic."

I have an especial place in my heart for the late Academy comic that involved a cyborg veritech. That was killed by...

a Meltraedi Moon princess with her magic katana.

No. I am not kidding. That was an actual published comic.

TLDR the robotech comics were never that popular in the industry, were widely known for very uneven quality and vanished without a blip indicating that it is not a self-sustaining property. Compare that with things like TMNT for which companies will gladly pay big licensing fees. That's a key to see if a property is successful-- is someone willing to shell out $$$ for it, and by and large the robotech IP is not successful. (Note that Palladium tends to bring out less than one product a year regarding robotech and is prone (even more so than usual) to delays. It's not a major priority for them).

[Seto Kaiba]

Can't a guy get at least some excitement about something new for Robotech?

Eh... if there were something actually worth getting excited about, perhaps.

Hm. Since you put it that way, isn't that kind of what they're counting on? This Kickstarter is nothing less than an overt admission that Harmony Gold itself doesn't see this project as a worthwhile investment which has a chance of success. They're only asking for $500,000. That's chump change by the standards of the modern television production industry... but Harmony Gold's own management won't (or can't?) give them a pittance like that to get the development of a new series off the ground? They have to go beg the fans to bankroll development of a pilot episode. Hell, they couldn't even get a real studio to take interest in this... they had to engage the services of a fan film group.

They won't even say anything about what they want to do with this series. They honestly expect you to hand them your money, sight unseen, for no reason other than that it MIGHT one day result in something "new" for Robotech... but only then if the planets align just right and a couple of gods stage a divine intervention on their behalf. They're banking on you getting carried away by your excitement over maybe one day having something new for Robotech, and that you'll be satisfied with ANYTHING... a failed pilot episode the networks rejected, for instance.

That's an agglomeration of warning signs large enough that it has its own gravitational pull.

Well; Imagine if the kickstarter fails.

How can we not? At best (or worst, your choice) it could persuade Harmony Gold to give up on RT and go, hat in hand, to Big West to strike a distribution deal for Macross. At worst (or best, YMMV again), it could end in another major administrative shakeup like the one after Robotech 3000 that puts RT into the hands of someone more capable. These two may not even be mutually exclusive propositions.

Good luck Seriously. I am pretty much militantly indifferent about it though. To me its 'just a show', and not even a really good one. But I have had fun watching stuff. *shrugs*

Bah, I'm sure I could find SOMETHING.

And there is a difference between speaking critically of something and saying that there is nothing positive at all about it, the group that produced it, the people involved, and that its all doom and disaster.

What if it IS all doom and disaster? Nothing about this bodes well... Harmony Gold has admitted they won't fund it, the creative staff is the same as the one for the last "movie" most of you hated, they couldn't get an actual professional studio to help them develop it, and its concept is attributed to one of the industry's most reviled writer-editors.

Seriously. The best case scenario, if you define completion as the "best case", is that you end up with a pilot episode guaranteed to compare poorly to the industry's average animation quality, for a title that no network wants to carry, aimed at an extremely niche audience with no viable merchandising support.

Probably. I would imagine that for a while at least, nothing with the words Robotech and Kickstarter in the same place will do well.

It might be for the best... though I'd classify this as terrible timing on their part. They should've at least waited a few years for this RRT Kickstarter mess to blow over.

[mech798]

The problem is the more you look at it the more it sounds like one of those "put something with the name out to maintain your claim to the rights" type projects. If they really wanted to revitalize the franchise they'd redo the original series with new animation. That's a project I'd back.

They can't. They cannot do anything based on the first two series, save for reusing the actual animation. Even using the ancient rick hunter in the Shadow Chronicles was a risk. That's why we don't see Dana, Max, Myria, etc, etc.

And we won't.

We also won't see any mecha or spacecraft that look anything like the stuff shown in the first two series.

[Jefffar]

Sorry folks, as this one turned into an excuse to slag Harmony Gold from the get go, going to have to shut it down.