Question about Fusion engine vs. Protoculture engine

[glitterboy2098]

logistics. your already carrying a lot of protoculture on the starships to fuel their main powerr and fold drives. mecha using it too means the mecha can operate as long asthe starship can operate. no issues of needing extra fuel storage or running low on mecha fuel while your starship still functions.

[ShadowLogan]

Why did the UEEF switch from Fusion engines that were plentiful in the Macross era to Protoculture when they came back to Earth?

Nobody knows. Seriously that is the $1,000,000,000,000.02 question with the shift from old days where everything was taken to be PC to the current mindset where it was only the UEEF/REF that made extensive use of the fuel. Logistics can explain some of it, but if you can put a SLMH plant on the ship refuel/fueling becomes a moot point (IMHO).

SLMH production for the fusion system should not be an issue. The only thing I can come up with is that the Macross/Masters era SLMH mecha are actually using PC in some diluted form to stretch the supply. Basically PC is used to dope the SLMH to easy requirements for manufacture, as pure SLMH requires intense pressures, but if one introduces other material in some quantity they can lower the required pressure.

Now obviously, the real reason is because the Macross anime uses Fusion for propulsion and Mospeda uses Protoculture, a

Actually SDF:M and SDC:SC (IINM) use Fusion, Mospedea uses fuel cell/hydrogen based technology not Protoculture. Protoculture in this instance is purely an invention of RT as one of the elements that ties the series together.

1. The UEEF left with fusion technology, and ran out of components to continue to produce fusion reactors and once they reached Fantoma, they used Protoculture out of necessity after learning of it from contact with the Invid.

Unlikely. There is nothing to suggest that they could not produce fusion technology, otherwise the ASC would have the same issues. There would also be nothing to really prevent an Alpha/Beta sized mecha from being fusion powered. Those mecha are comparable size to known fusion examples, and even bigger than a Logan.

2. The manufacture of fusion engines produced too much waste for the UEEF to process on their own and in an effort to be "green", they couldn't dump the waste on some backwater or shoot it off into the sun, and they switched to Protoculture as it was more efficient.

Technically there are a different types of fusion fuel, and some actually do produce radioactive material, but it depends on the fuel(s) used. But I can't see the manufacture to be producing too much waste given the ASC also uses the hardware when the UEEF left.

3. When they reached the homeworld of the Robotech Masters and encountered the Invid for the first time they found some sort of advantage of using protoculture to that of fusion, while accepting the knowledge that in using Protoculture they would be detectable to the Invid

The biggest advantage PC has over fusion is energy density of its fuel. Otherwise there is no real benefit other than raiding the enemy for supplies.

4. The UEEF left earth with Protoculture technology, and didn't allow this to fall into the hands of the Southern Cross

The question then becomes why they would do this.

It could be that the heavy water reactors required to create the fuel take up too much space in the capital ships, and as they were building out the Garfish or Ikazuchi ships, they realized that if they switched to Protoculture it would free up space of the ship to be used for something else (in the same way computers used to take up an entire room, and now they fit on your thumb).

Except that the fusion systems in RT aren't running off of heavy water, they are running off of a material known as Stabilized Liquid Metallic Hydrogen (SLMH), which is much more dense than regular Liquid Hydrogen.

It could also be that in order to achieve the performance in the UEEF's mecha to combat the Invid, they *needed* the additional power that Protoculture provided.

Have you actually seen the performance specs of the UEEF gear compared to the UEDF-RDF era. There is not "additional power" provided by PC, endurance yes. Granted this really is more an artifact of HGs desire to adhere to the OSM for performance and such instead of working out performance values that would make sense. As it is...

[SRoss]

Just guessing, but I think that it's and 1/3 combination. When the UEEF arrived in Fantoma, they found themselves locked into a drawn out campaign. The local infrastructure is all Protoculture based (I don't know if its still canon, but the suggestion was that the Robotech Masters burned through their other power resources). The game suggests that Protoculture generates more power.

There is nothing about it in the game, but given Scott's reaction in the series, I suspect we'll at some point learn that the Protoculture sensor is unique to the Regess's Invid.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Power to weight ratio.
Protoculture is the fuel source with side benefits.
Because the storyline demanded it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Why did the UEEF switch from Fusion engines that were plentiful in the Macross era to Protoculture when they came back to Earth?

They didn't... they switched before they ever left. The RPG's introduction dates for the Alpha are wrong, and per official material the platform's been the go-to frontline VF for the UEEF for twenty-plus years.

Now obviously, the real reason is because the Macross anime uses Fusion for propulsion and Mospeda uses Protoculture, [...]

Actually, neither of those statements is true.

The original Super Dimension Fortress Macross and all of its sequels have the thermonuclear reaction overtechnology as their power source... which is a process similar to fusion, but also distinct and different from it in many ways (including that the reaction occurs in a pocket of 10+ dimensional space-time). The actual propulsive effect varies, but it's usually akin to Star Trek's impulse engines (a synthesis of the fusion rocket and ion engine technologies), though other mecha sometimes just use it in rocket form.

The creators of the original Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross never explained what anything in that series used for power sources or propulsion.

The original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA uses HBT, a form of hydrogen fuel cell technology invented in the 2050s as a workaround for the depletion of fossil fuels. That's why you see "HBT" written on the side of "protoculture" cells in the animation.

Robotech's concept of "protoculture" isn't something original either... it's a piece of plot-spackle that was assembled piecemeal from three separate things in the three separate shows. The name was that of the original ancient alien race in Macross that created the Zentradi and Humanity. The "Bio-energy" schtick came from MOSPEADA, where the Inbit mecha were powered remotely by life force that was broadcast from the hives. The association with flowers came from the Protozor, the flowers that the Zor (alien race from Southern Cross) had a biochemical dependence on.

it lists that the SDF-3 left for Tirol/Fantoma with Protoculture technology, but that's no longer canon.

Actually it still is... the Alpha fighter's official canon stats writeup on Robotech.com describes it as having functioned as the Expeditionary Forces main VF throughout its missions in deep space.

1. The UEEF left with fusion technology, and ran out of components to continue to produce fusion reactors and once they reached Fantoma, they used Protoculture out of necessity after learning of it from contact with the Invid.

Nope, by all (official) accounts, they left with Protoculture-based power systems on their paint-still-wet Alpha fighters.

2. The manufacture of fusion engines produced too much waste for the UEEF to process on their own and in an effort to be "green", they couldn't dump the waste on some backwater or shoot it off into the sun, and they switched to Protoculture as it was more efficient.

What waste? This is hydrogen-hydrogen fusion per the RPG. It's as close to clean as fusion gets, since it cannot produce neutron radiation, and the end product is helium plasma (which is a useful thing for a lot of electronics applications). You're thinking of fission reactors, which produce heavy metal waste which stays radioactive for aeons. Totally different thing.

3. When they reached the homeworld of the Robotech Masters and encountered the Invid for the first time they found some sort of advantage of using protoculture to that of fusion, while accepting the knowledge that in using Protoculture they would be detectable to the Invid

VERY unlikely, because the Invid are set up to sense protoculture, and it's established for canon that the UEEF didn't figure out that the Invid were always wise to their game because they could see protoculture emissions from the UEEF's mecha until 2043.

4. The UEEF left earth with Protoculture technology, and didn't allow this to fall into the hands of the Southern Cross

Bingo! The RPG claims this was because Leonard was butthurt over being left behind with what he saw as insufficient resources, so he developed his own new weapons independently.

The fact that fusion produces too much waste compared to Protoculture frankly isn't sexy to me, but could be realistic.

You're thinking of fission... hydrogen-hydrogen fusion's only byproduct is helium, which is a very useful and valuable commodity. Fusion has the distinct advantage that the plasma produced by the reaction can be used as a propellant in ion engines (which is, of course, how MANY SF series handle propulsion in space... including Robotech, apparently.)

The third possibility is interesting as there would need to be some sort of quantitative measurement of using Protoculture over Fusion.

Definitely not performance, considering the VF-1 massively outclasses the Alpha in that area. The RPG has offered the easy-out of greater endurance, though that's purely a construct of the RPG and has no actual basis in the show.

Essentially... within the context of official information only, the switch from fusion power to protoculture is completely indefensible from a logistical or tactical perspective. It just doesn't make any rational sense.

It could be that the heavy water reactors required to create the fuel take up too much space in the capital ships, [...]

That's fission you're thinking of, not fusion... heavy water reactors are uranium fission reactors.

The last possibility is interesting in that it has been touched on in previous canon (so I understand that it's effectively invalid), and it also possibly paints the UEEF in the worst light. To develop a technology like Protoculture (which *has* to come from the Invid Flower of Life and *isn't* used by the Zentraedi - so how the UEEF gets it is beyond me),

Where are you getting this notion that Zentradi mecha don't use protoculture? That's not correct. They use reflex furnaces (protoculture reactors) for power generation. Their power systems are simply separate from their engines.




You may have a LOT of rethinking to do here...

[Seto Kaiba]

logistics. your already carrying a lot of protoculture on the starships to fuel their main powerr and fold drives.

You've got a good point.

Less so than you think... the fusion-powered mecha use metallic hydrogen for fuel in the RPG, and that's a fuel source you can get at practically any gas giant-type planet as a naturally-occurring material. Modern science has indicated that the stuff makes up a significant portion of Jupiter's atmosphere, and is closer to the surface than previously believed. When you use fusion, the galaxy is your gas station... in an entirely literal sense. You can get hydrogen ANYWHERE.

Protoculture, on the other hand, is a rare and exotic material that can only be produced under an extremely specific set of conditions that nobody involved actually understands... which makes it a logistical nightmare and completely unfeasible for front-line use (or really, any use).

We've yet to see stats on how the SDF-3 was powered, but assuming that it was Reflex Technology, that could make sense... to a point;

It used reflex furnaces... everything human-built after the first war did, starship-wise, even if they were just salvaged Zentradi hardware.

The SDF-1 is powered by Reflex Technology (i.e. Protoculture), yet all of the mecha of the era (and designed *after* the crash) use fusion Why?

Because Tommy Yune wishes he was working on Macross... but also, because he chose to make the official interpretation of Roy's line early on that the VF-1's engines were "based on a reactor design" to be a statement that they use fusion power. He couldn't go whole hog and make it Macross's thermonuclear reaction overtechnology, because that'd cause copyright issues and completely invalidate the existence of protoculture by rendering it entirely unnecessary.

[glitterboy2098]

logistics. your already carrying a lot of protoculture on the starships to fuel their main powerr and fold drives. mecha using it too means the mecha can operate as long asthe starship can operate. no issues of needing extra fuel storage or running low on mecha fuel while your starship still functions.

You've got a good point.
We've yet to see stats on how the SDF-3 was powered, but assuming that it was Reflex Technology, that could make sense... to a point; but opens up other questions... The SDF-1 is powered by Reflex Technology (i.e. Protoculture), yet all of the mecha of the era (and designed *after* the crash) use fusion Why? Then, if we say that the SDF-3 left, how did it get it's Reflex Furnace (it's been identified prior to the retcon that it used Zentraedi engines)?

logistics again. the SDF-1 had PC for its engines.. but as far as humanity knew, it was a fixed, finite amount. they didn't know the ship had a factory for the stuff somewhere in it, and since they didn't find it then said factory was obviously not in operation. (since the fuel tanks filling up when no one was putting stuff in from the outside is a dead give away.)

to defend earth, they were looking at the need for tens of thousands of mecha, lots of ships, etc. possibly for several decades or even centuries before they could come up with a way to make the alien fuel themselves. (remember, at this time they didn't know of the factory or the flower of life)
so they had to develop an alternative power source, better than petrochemicals and safer than nuclear fission, to power all that stuff. fusion technology's main limit isn't our understanding of the process, it is our ability to build the materials needed to make the reactors. the SDF-1's tech (advanced alloys, gravity generators, etc) allowed not only the building of reactors that are small and wsafe, but also the ability to make the ideal fuel, SLMH. (SLMH is theoretically possible IRL.. we just lack the tech to produce the super high pressures needed to try to make it.. much less make it in quantity.)

once the 1st war was over, and earth has the salvaged PC of the zent grand fleet (and the factory sat(s) ), they seem to have stuck to SLMH fusion for the earth based military (where you have existing factories and exotons of water to use as raw material) and reserved PC for use by spacecraft and the deep space forces (UEEF). fold drives require PC to be viable, and whilethey have a big supply now, they didn't have a steady source. (since that factory was buries with the SDF-1), meaning that big supply would have to last for decades, possibly centuries, still. so they would be rationing it, since that supply would dwindle, however slowly, each time they filled up a starship's tanks or refilled a mecha's PC reactor.

logistics. your already carrying a lot of protoculture on the starships to fuel their main powerr and fold drives.

You've got a good point.

Less so than you think... the fusion-powered mecha use metallic hydrogen for fuel in the RPG, and that's a fuel source you can get at practically any gas giant-type planet as a naturally-occurring material. Modern science has indicated that the stuff makes up a significant portion of Jupiter's atmosphere, and is closer to the surface than previously believed. When you use fusion, the galaxy is your gas station... in an entirely literal sense. You can get hydrogen ANYWHERE.

oh yes, you just have to dive through about 30,000 miles of increasingly dense atmosphere, thru a layer of regular liquid hydrogen, and survive the 100 million atmosphere pressure. then you can just pump the stuff into your tanks.

so basically, total bullcrap.

however, if you have gravity manipulation, you can suspend regular liquid hydrogen in a gravity field and exert pressure equal to those millions of atmospheres to manufacture the stuff anywhere you can fit the massive hardware.

could you build such a system into a space going ship? probably. certainly it could fit into a factory sat.

but fold drives require protoculture. probably because PC has the a higher energy density (the amount of energy you can get from a given mass of fuel) than nuclear fusion. a VF-1 needs gallons and gallons of fusion fuel to get 2 weeks of power. an alpha uses about 2 gallons of PC for a full month. trying to power a fold drive on fusion is going to suck up most of the room on a ship with fusion reactors and fusion fuel storage.

and if your using PC to power the starship itself, why not take advantage of that energy density for the mecha it carries? and simplify the logistics?

[Seto Kaiba]

so basically, total bullcrap.

No, the total bullcrap is the use of liquid metallic hydrogen in the first place... something that has far more utility as rocket fuel than fusion reactant. Regular slush or metallic hydrogen is much better for fusion and is a lot easier to get. Mercifully, that little bit of pants-on-head silliness is RPG-only.

however, if you have gravity manipulation, you can suspend regular liquid hydrogen in a gravity field and exert pressure equal to those millions of atmospheres to manufacture the stuff anywhere you can fit the massive hardware.

Or you could use the regular stuff, since the liquid hydrogen will evaporate anyway unless it's kept under refrigeration, pressure, or both. You can mine ordinary hydrogen off the upper layers of a gas giant, from oceans, or even magnetically out of the interplanetary medium, and compress it using artificial gravity, or pressure techniques.

but fold drives require protoculture.

No, they just require a lot of power... the Haydonites use fold drives, and they don't use protoculture. It's just that humanity blindly adopted tech they didn't understand, and so are only aware of one way to do it.

probably because PC has the a higher energy density (the amount of energy you can get from a given mass of fuel) than nuclear fusion.

Yes, but the chief tradeoff where mecha are concerned in the RPG is increased operational duration at the expense of peak output and performance.

trying to power a fold drive on fusion is going to suck up most of the room on a ship with fusion reactors and fusion fuel storage.

This is an assumption, and one bereft of a factual basis at that...

and if your using PC to power the starship itself, why not take advantage of that energy density for the mecha it carries? and simplify the logistics?

Considering humanity doesn't have the means to produce as much protoculture as you want, and having a backup/secondary fusion power system that is necessary to make those fusion or plasma engines go and to supply propellant for same, why not go with a mecha fuel that doesn't drain your ship's very limited and very difficult-to-replace fuel stores? Why not rely on a fuel that lets you replenish your forces stockpiles almost anywhere in the universe?

[Seto Kaiba]

This I *didn't know*. Thanks for this.

When it comes to almost anything in the RPG, the words "liberties were taken" tend to apply. They really, massively short-sell a lot of human equipment... though this is a sin that extends beyond just the RT RPG.

Okay. I guess that makes as much sense as anything. The statement and lack of specificity in the canon in regards to 'deep space' missions adds to the frustration I have with that point in time... to the point where it reminds me of how time is handled in the Old Testament.

*shrug* The specific wording they use suggests that they mean the entire 22 year span of the mission to the Masters homeworld and subsequent liberation of same. This would be consistent with the depiction of Alpha fighter prototypes in testing as early as 2015 (see "From the Stars"), and the depiction of Alphas as new fighters in Sentinels (though Sentinels is reduced to broad strokes continuity).

I understand the differences, and just trying to game out all the possibilities.

That's the beautiful thing about a lot of the best fusion techniques we're exploring in modern science... the most sought-after forms of fusion for energy generation don't produce neutron radiation, so they aren't the kind of thing that will have long-lasting exposure consequences if the reactor's shielding isn't perfect. The favored combinations in fiction are Hydrogen-Hydrogen (what RT uses) and Deuterium-Helium3 (used in the Gundam UC'verse Minovsky reactors). Real-world alternatives include Deuterium-Lithium6, proton-Lithium6, Helium3-Lithium6, and Hydrogen-Boron11.

NASA seems to favor the mix of elemental hydrogen and the boron 11 isotope.

These are as close to "clean" nuclear energy as it gets... the waste products are either Helium, isotopes of Helium like Helium 4, or carbon, which are all mundane and very safe. The radiation they produce could be stopped by a heavy sweater, with the worst of it being heat and occasionally a few stray protons.

Where this gets wicked cool is that, according to NASA's position paper on applying this for conventional aircraft propulsion, it's suggested that a single pound of fuel would be enough to fly around the world at a respectable clip. The RPG is actually short-selling the capabilities of the fusion-powered planes, considering how much fuel some of them carry per OSM spec.

I wasn't aware of the dates, but I found this possibility lacking as well.

Me, I'm floored that it took the UEEF decades to figure out that the Invid were tracking them by the unique emissions of their protoculture power plants... but since almost everything in the UEEF inventory used some form of protoculture power system, their problem was universal. Everything from ships down to handguns is giving their presence away to the Invid.

[Seto Kaiba]

I've understood this as well, and agree that the Macross era limits the power of fusion; which was what was leading me to something being wrong with it

It's no patch on the OSM's tech, for sure... but the way the RPG and RTSC's art book have handled, it, I suspect that Robotech is biasing its tech level and the relative potency of its weapons more toward the level of Gundam, much closer to MOSPEADA and the modern real world than Macross.

And adopted I might add from a broke ass ship that crashed on their planet, and the only people who could tell you how it worked for the most part just finished trying to wipe out your planet and are task-built clones who only know how to push the proverbial easy button.

Even after they had access to the tech in its undamaged state, they couldn't replicate a lot of it on their own... that's why their ships are built around salvaged fold systems and reflex furnaces that were once in Zentradi warships.

Which leads me back to what on the tech tree caused the UEEF to switch? Who knows, they could have gone native when they made it to Optera.

Who knows? The Alpha couldn't be designed worse for the job they needed it to do... but I suspect the choice was one of simple curiosity. They wanted to play with the shiny new toys they'd captured from the Zentradi.

[camk4evr]

oh yes, you just have to dive through about 30,000 miles of increasingly dense atmosphere, thru a layer of regular liquid hydrogen, and survive the 100 million atmosphere pressure. then you can just pump the stuff into your tanks.

so basically, total bullcrap.

however, if you have gravity manipulation, you can suspend regular liquid hydrogen in a gravity field and exert pressure equal to those millions of atmospheres to manufacture the stuff anywhere you can fit the massive hardware.

They have gravity manipulation technology as demonstrated by their anti-gravity engines and the SDF-1's artificial Gravity

[ShadowLogan]

No, they just require a lot of power... the Haydonites use fold drives, and they don't use protoculture. It's just that humanity blindly adopted tech they didn't understand, and so are only aware of one way to do it.

Actually we don't know what the Haydonites use for power. We know they don't like "Protoculture", but that doesn't mean they can't use it. For all we know the Haydonites have MAMA-technology for power (unless they want to go even more exotic), and that would outclass fusion and most likely PC.

Me, I'm floored that it took the UEEF decades to figure out that the Invid were tracking them by the unique emissions of their protoculture power plants... but since almost everything in the UEEF inventory used some form of protoculture power system, their problem was universal. Everything from ships down to handguns is giving their presence away to the Invid.

Part of the "decades" feature is the result of the new (2000-ish) timeline pushing the events of NG off into the 2040s, where the old timeline (or closest to official as one can get from the Novels and RPG of the period) has the events taking place in the 2030s. The fact of the matter is that the Legacy version of RT had no established dates/elapsed time between TRM and NG sagas, and what few cues exist aren't as clear cut in that regard since a case can be made for a few scenerios. So the decades feature is partially an artificat of the timeline crafted by TPTB.

Another part is the insistance of recycling the Invid for the Sentinel arc, and desire to preserve the arc (even if it is in broad strokes).

PC detectors though aren't unique to the Invid, Reflex detection gear was part of the Zentraedi sensor scheme, so the idea of PC/Reflex sensors should not have surprised anyone.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually we don't know what the Haydonites use for power.

We know it's not protoculture, because their espoused position is that anyone who uses the stuff needs to be wiped out yesterday, and because their RPG stats indicate they don't.

PC detectors though aren't unique to the Invid, Reflex detection gear was part of the Zentraedi sensor scheme, so the idea of PC/Reflex sensors should not have surprised anyone.

True enough...

[Seto Kaiba]

We know they don't like "Protoculture", but that doesn't mean they can't use it.

Officially, from the perspective of the Invid (via Marlene), they "fear it's awesome power". Whether that means they're afraid of it a la caveman encountering a smart phone, or they're afraid of anyone but them having it isn't explained.

Between the RPG and the Prelude comic, it's leaning more toward them not using it and wanting to murder the dickens out of whoever does.

[glitterboy2098]

PC detectors though aren't unique to the Invid, Reflex detection gear was part of the Zentraedi sensor scheme, so the idea of PC/Reflex sensors should not have surprised anyone.

True enough...

PC activity sensors small enough to fit onto mecha might have though. the zent and master's ones we see in use are generally starship based, so perhaps they're bulky things too big to fit on mecha as small as the invid stuff.

the regent is a tricky twist to the idea, but maybe mecha based PC sensors are unique to the regis, and the regent relied more heavily on the hive PC sensor relaying position info to his mecha via the hive mind? this would be analogous to his use of the hive brains to control his inorganics, and neatly sidesteps the issue of why the UEEF didn't know ahead of time.
plus it would explain some of Scott's insistence on taking out the hive PC sensor in the converted ASC base, when the individual mecha could pick them up as well.

[Seto Kaiba]

the regent is a tricky twist to the idea, but maybe mecha based PC sensors are unique to the regis, and the regent relied more heavily on the hive PC sensor relaying position info to his mecha via the hive mind?

I dunno, but I don't think there's a rational explanation for how the UEEF was perplexed by the way that the Invid always knew where they were and what they were doing when protoculture sensors were not tech the UEEF should've been clueless about and it only took Scott's band a few run-ins with the Invid to sort out an alarming chain of coincidences into a pattern.

They're just stuck with (another) idiot ball to justify the shadow technology... which just leaves them in the position of being complete idiots who switched to a new engine technology without considering the practical effect it might have on tactics.

[ShadowLogan]

PC activity sensors small enough to fit onto mecha might have though. the zent and master's ones we see in use are generally starship based, so perhaps they're bulky things too big to fit on mecha as small as the invid stuff.

But mecha mounted Energy Sensors aren't unheard of either. Zentraedi mecha do have them IINM (as displayed in the PC raid in Ep35 IIRC), and the Masters are flat out said to have mounted "armored energy sensors" on the Bioroid Invid Fighter by Dana in IINM the 15th's first dust up with the latest model of Bioroid (BIF).

While one might argue that the Zentraedi mecha and Invid mecha are drastically disproportionate to each other for potential scale of equipment, but the Bioroid most certainly demolishes that idea as their basic measurements are similar (yes the Bioroid is taller, but Invid mecha tend to be longer in length).

plus it would explain some of Scott's insistence on taking out the hive PC sensor in the converted ASC base, when the individual mecha could pick them up as well.

Not likely. Recall that Rand didn't even know what the sensor looked like, and if Scott was insistent on taking out the sensor you would think he would be able to describe said sensor to Rand so he would know what to look for without needing to use Rook as a decoy.