Thoughts from the rewrite: Macross II

[Seto Kaiba]

And of course, because of HG, we will never see an office release here, in the USA in English dub. For most of that stuff, anyways.

Yep... and that's the real tragedy of Robotech's continued existence. As long as Harmony Gold's got that tiny, nostalgia-driven audience who continue to support it no matter what, they're never going to let go of it or the dubious trademarks keeping them from having to compete on a level playing field against an infinitely more competent group of companies whose work often leads the industry in quality.

Mercifully, it seems that Bandai has at least started to realize there's money in doing an end-run around Harmony Gold's ghetto-ization of western Macross fans, and has started to include English subtitles (and in one memorable case, the English dub track) in new Macross home video releases.

given macross DYRL was made an "in universe movie" for the main timeline, would macross II also be an "in universe film/ova" as well? (would certainly explain some of the music appearing in macross 7 in the 'battle of the bands' bit..)

That's a favorite fan theory that does the rounds every now and again... but no official word has come in either way. Mind you, there's a lot more Macross II music in there than you think. Most of the non-Fire Bomber music in Macross 7 is right off the Macross II OSTs. The only real exceptions were the song performed by Alice Holiday, and the ones performed by Emilia Jenius in the movie. Every time we see a character turn on the radio or we see a song on TV that isn't from one of those performers, it's off the Macross II soundtracks.




Macross II: Deck Plans Volume 2: Error Harder
Some Words from the Publisher (Page 5)

If this maniac survives, he may pursue a quest for power become the new Emperor?) or seek revenge against the despicable humans and Zentran traitors who destroyed Lord Emperor Ingues and brought dishonor to the Marduk people.

A normal Mardook shipmaster becoming the Emperor would be difficult, considering that Ingues wasn't a man by any conventional definition. He was a technorganic computer who enjoyed a lifespan far above what a mortal could expect... at least a few hundred thousand years, or even functional immortality as long as his ship remained intact. After all, Gorg Boddole Zer was over 120,000 when his mobile fortress was destroyed by the united UN Spacy-Zentradi-Meltrandi fleet.

Also, what traitors? The Mardook's Zentradi forces have no free will and the Zentradi serving in the UN Forces were never involved with the Mardook.



UN Spacy Corvette

This is another head-scratcher... the kanji on the line art reads Standard Battleship.



The third smallest ship in the UN Spacy arsenal (the smaller ones being the Command and the Escort Carriers), the Corvette's design was strongly influenced by both Zentran and Meltran ship design.

Er... No. The UN Spacy's standard battleship is one of the smallest ships in its arsenal, but it's still a fair deal larger than the Zentradi picket ships at ~700-800m long. It's still one of the smallest ships that the UN Spacy can bring to the table, being about 2/3 the size of a Gloria or Heracles-type ship.



Although not powerfully armed, the Corvette serves as a ship of the line in the UN Spacy fleet.

For its size, the standard battleship can punch WAY above its weight... being that it's armed with turrets comparable to the Zentradi battleship's, in considerable profusion for its size, and also the same anti-ship missile launchers as its larger bretheren. It was, after all, designed to fight and destroy Zentradi ships...



Weapons Systems

Not sure how, but they didn't even count the turrets in the art correctly... the standard battleship has a total of fourteen large converging beam cannon turrets and four large anti-warship missile launchers with thermonuclear reaction warheads for its primary armament, it's packin' a hell of a lot of heat. And that's not counting any fighters or destroids it's carrying. There's also a variant in the line art that has one of the Thuverl Salan-class battleship's large spinal gun turrets mounted at the front of the gun decks amidships for a little extra bombardment punch.



UN Spacy Battleship

Yep, this one's actually right... the Gloria is a fleet command battleship, and one modeled upon the Meltrandi Army's 4 kilometer long version of same, though admittedly about 1/4th scale. (~1,100m)



The Battleship, although smaller than the Command Ship, is even more powerful in terms of raw firepower.

Actually, they're both battleships... the Heracles actually probably outguns the Gloria by a fair bit thanks to its heavy converging beam cannon in the bow. The Gloria also has a large-scale beam cannon like that, but it's much smaller, comparable to the one in the bow of the Queadol Magdomilla-class Zentradi fleet command battleship. Still, like the other human ships, this is one "little" ship that can punch WAY above its weight class.



UN Spacy Command Carrier

UN Spacy Large Battleship.

The Command Ship is typical of the new generation of spacecraft built by the UN Spacy in the aftermath of the first Zentran invasion in the early 21st century.

Actually, it's not... it's typical of the new generation of spacecraft built for the UN Spacy using a mixture of Human, Zentradi, and Meltrandi overtechnology after the devastating Zentradi invasion of 2054. That ship, and the others like it, are a good deal more advanced than the human-built ships of the years right after the first space war, which were largely just improved versions of the wartime starship classes, with the designs adjusted for the realities of large-scale space warfare.

These ships aren't small, either... both the Gloria and the Heracles are loosely based upon the starship designs of the Meltrandi Army, being a scaled-down version of the fleet command battleship and not-so-scaled-down version of the Meltrandi gun destroyer that the Macross was built around.



The Command Ships combine the functions of a battleship and a fighter carrier.

So... exactly like literally every other ship, then? It's a rare ship in either Macross timeline that isn't fitted out to carry at least a couple fighters in addition to whatever its other fleet role is.



Weapons Systems
We don't actually know a heck of a lot about how this one is armed, beyond the obvious super dimension energy cannon that makes up the bow and the visible quartet of anti-warship missile launchers near the stern. It's a safe bet that it has the usual assortment of converging beam cannon turrets on the hull to use against other warships.



Zentran Flagship

Zentradi Army Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class fleet command battleship.



By far the biggest ship of the UN Spacy, the flagship-class Zentran vessel is - except for the SDF-1 Macross - one of the most powerful ships in the universe.

Actually, it's a distant second to the Macross Cannon-class gunships, each of which was built using FOUR of these massive battleships to form its anti-fleet heavy converging beam cannon system. Also, in terms of raw firepower, the Macross-class super dimension fortress is lucky to break even against a Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class ship's more copious complement of guns and larger heavy converging beam cannon system... and both are massively outclassed by the Macross Cannon-class gunships, which are themselves massively outclassed by the Mobile Fortresses used by the Zentradi, Meltrandi, and, also, the Mardook... which have main gun firepower hundreds of thousands of times that of either ship.

Contrary to what the book says, the ship's interiors were not extensively redesigned at all... the miclone crew quarters were simply stuck wherever there was spare room, and in a ship that size there is a HUGE amount of spare room.



The UN Spacy version of the flagship retains all the qualities of the first design plus some improvements, especially in armor and armament. Only three of them are left, and they are used as long-range mobile bases.

The UN Spacy-modified version of the Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class isn't described as having had any kind of changes to its armor or armament... just fittings for a miclone crew and fixtures to launch the Valkyrie II from. Most of the UN Spacy's technological improvements in weaponry were copied from ships like this, after all.

There are a LOT more than three of these ships left too... the UN Spacy possessed far more of these in their forces than would ordinarily exist in a Zentradi fleet of similar size. They had a couple dozen of 'em, not counting the ones that were modified into gun systems for the Macross Cannon-class gunships.



Zentran Carrier

Zentradi Army Quiltra Queleual-class Landing Ship



All these changes have left much less room for mecha compared to the old version, which carried more than 25,000 of them.

Same notes as before... Palladium's counts are MASSIVELY exaggerated. In all likelihood, this ship never carried more than a few hundred battle pods since the average Zentradi crew size was only 1,500 in the Boddole Zer fleet.

The modifications are unlikely to have had any significant effect on the ship's carrying capacity, and its armor and armament were likely completely unchanged unless we count the possible addition of reaction warheads for its existing missile launchers.



Weapon Systems

This ship has no "main gun" type system... and is fairly lightly armed for its size, being the only Zentradi ship with an official weapons count of just 17 beam gun turrets and 96 defensive missile launchers.




The Mardook section comes next.

[Seto Kaiba]

Chapter Four: Marduk (Page 40)
Marduk Destroyer

Mardook Battleship



The Destroyer, unlike many larger Marduk ships, does not have hyperspace communication, but does have emulator chambers.

As I had noted previously, a fold system in Macross is not a one-trick pony... it might enable you to circumvent interstellar distances by folding super dimension space, but it also contains a cross-dimension radar and fold communications system. This ship has a fold system, so it most definitely DOES also have faster-than-light comms with an interstellar range.



Weapon Systems

No main gun systems here folks, it's actually a variation of the Zentradi Thuverl Salan-class battleship with slightly less weaponry for its size. The hull contours have changed a bit too.



Marduk Dreadnought

Mardook Grave Battleship.



Even if it is slightly smaller than the Marduk flagship, the Dreadnought is far superior in armament, speed, and maneuverability. It also has a powerful fold system, allowing it to fold at a few seconds notice!

Strictly speaking, the Grave Battleship is something akin to elite forces... though firepower-wise it's still outclassed by the flagship type thanks to the flagship's heavy converging beam cannon. Its fold system doesn't stand out either, since folding at a few seconds notice is well within the capability of most ships when the distances involved are short (for a fold jump, meaning anything up to a few dozen light years).

Armaments-wise, the Grave Battleship just has a boatload (lol) of really high-powered beam gun turrets.

[Alpha 11]

I've said it before, but if I could, I'd buy HG and just let Macross in, as long a we could still do Robotech, even if we had to send everything to them to approve it. At least we would get more Robotech that way, even if it came slowly. I've also been wandering lately if Tommy really did try to do a bunch of stuff, but just can't, and what he and the others have put out is only out of desperation.

[Seto Kaiba]

I've said it before, but if I could, I'd buy HG and just let Macross in, as long a we could still do Robotech, even if we had to send everything to them to approve it. [...]

Now, I know I've explained this before... but those two things are mutually exclusive propositions. After the fraudulent claims of ownership of all of Macross, the threats they sent to Macross import groups, and their having started the Big West v. Tatsunoko legal mess, Big West has made it quite clear through their actions that they will not let Harmony Gold or anyone associated with it be involved in the distribution of Macross. Clearly and understandably, they think that Harmony Gold bad behavior is not something that should be rewarded... and rightly so.

At least we would get more Robotech that way, even if it came slowly.

Why would you WANT more Robotech? Let's be frank here, friend. There's very little that could be done with Robotech. Why? The franchise's track record is so abysmal that no outside investor will have anything to do with it*, more than a third of the content is eternally off-limits for future use**, its story has little to offer that isn't already present in Macross, and its sales have historically been on the dismal side of extremely poor.

If you can have Macross, why bother with the imitation brand?

* Harmony Gold actually admitted to having put off work on Shadow Rising for exactly this reason... they were hoping the proposed live-action movie would get made and succeed enough that it'd fix this problem.

** Macross's contents are absolutely off-limits, and while it hasn't been commented on it appears Southern Cross's contents may be off-limits too... leaving only 30% of the show to use.

I've also been wandering lately if Tommy really did try to do a bunch of stuff, but just can't, and what he and the others have put out is only out of desperation.

Nobody wants to invest in Robotech... not even Harmony Gold. That's what they were hoping their proposed live-action movie would fix. Funny how that turned out.






Macross II Deck Plans Volume 3

Macross Fortress

Macross-class Super Dimension Fortress (Refit Type)



[...] the people of Earth pulled together under the auspices of the United Nations to prepare themselves for a possible invasion.

This is actually a common mistake... the "UN" in "UN Forces" or "UN Government" DOES NOT mean "United Nations". It's an abbreviaton of "Unity", "Unified", or "Unification", depending upon how you want to read the Japanese. "Unity" is the officially-favored reading.

You see, the United Nations we know from the modern world ceased to exist after the inauguration of the Unity (UN) Government. The reason being was that its function had officially become redundant once the world had a supranational government to handle international relations. Its last official act was to be the forum which drafted the Unity Government, and after that government officially started business it ended its service quietly with its disestablishment in January 2001.



In the ten years that followed the arrival of the Super-Dimensional Fortress (as the ship was called), a city grew on South Ataria Island. Its inhabitants were engineers and scientists who tried to understand the strange alien technology (called Over Technology) in order to incorporate it with human knowledge.

Well, it's actually "Super Dimension Fortress", sort of a punny name on the ship's size, and the fact that most of its key systems use physics from a 10+ dimensional sub-universe that came to be known by the name "super dimension space".

The city that grew up on South Ataria Island was actually not inhabited by engineers or scientists. Its actual role was basically to provide R&R and logistical support for the growing military base and all of its research programs. The actual research and development was carried out around the world by a great many defense contractors and technology firms, whose work was aided, coordinated, and overseen by OTEC... a dedicated multinational research firm founded specifically for analyzing the alien ship.

It's worth noting that there is some suggestion that the island's inhabitants were intended to leave the island aboard the Macross one day, possibly as a support group for long-term space exploration (in the DYRL version). The ship didn't have space for a city by accident... it was specifically allocated in the retrofit process.



In the confusion of the battle, the Fortress spacefolded, unfortunately taking a large chunk of the island with it.

Actually, this may not be true in the DYRL version of events... it's mentioned in Macross Chronicle that the civilians evacuated into the ship, and the one animated piece that shows the battle shows the Macross fold away and NOT take the island with it.



Due to an incorrectly rebuilt fold system, the Macross crew found themselves in orbit around Pluto, without the critical machinery needed to quickly take them home.

This is a Robotech-ism... the actual, explicitly mentioned reason from the original series was that many systems had suffered at the "hands" of the booby trap, and that the fold system was one... the disappearance of the fold system was the result of post-facto sabotage by the ship's original creators, which owed nothing to any human intervention (beyond having returned the abandoned Meltnandi gun destroyer to spaceworthy condition).

Also worth noting is that the Macross didn't end up orbiting Pluto... it ended up near Pluto's orbit.



In the years that followed the war, the Macross was rebuilt and repaired several times, serving as base of operations on Earth while civilization returned to the shattered, war-torn planet.

Just the once, actually... the Macross was largely left to sit until a refit program was initiated some time prior to 2054 which repaired and remodeled the ship's heavy converging beam cannon and other systems. The ship was never returned to service, though, because the events of the 2054 space war rendered its upgrades obsolete again and the UN Government threw up its hands in frustration declared it a landmark.



In time, new battlefortresses were built to safeguard the colony ships leaving Earth for new homes outside the solar system.

This is actually correct... though they don't use the term "battlefortress", that's a Robotech term.

The last known Macross-class ship mentioned was the Million Star, the ship which ran smack into a Zentradi fleet only a few light years from Earth and kicked off the biggest Zentradi invasion since the first one, which decimated the UN Spacy but never made it any further into the solar system than Pluto's orbit.



Crew:

The Macross's original crew size before the end of Space War 1 was 20,000, with approximately 58,000 additional passengers (civilian evacuees from South Ataria). The 70,000 is a Robotech number.



Speed:

As noted previously, the speed in space is exaggerated here... available evidence suggests the actual cruising speed used for long-distance cruise was about 0.0007c (which is still terrifyingly fast), but its standard means of reaching interplanetary distances would've been fold jumps due to time constraints.



Dimensions

1,200m x 312m x 600m and a mass of 22,000,000 tonnes. I'm not sure where they got the height and width, but they appear to have used the original series mass for the pre-refit Macross for what's effectively the post-refit version in the main timeline.



Back-up Power System

The Macross was powered by a network of thermonuclear reaction heat pile systems, it had no need of a backup power system when its main power system was decentralized and had considerable redundancy in its design.



The "leg" sections of the ship contain a miniature city which was home to the exiled population of South Ataria Island during the return trip from Pluto's orbit.

Not just the legs... the city extended into the torso too.



Although the battle fortress originally came with an FTL fold system, the human scientists who refurbished the ship could not quite figure out how to repair it.

In fact, they knew just fine and the fold system was in good working order... the problem was that it was compromised by the booby trap left behind by the ship's creators.



Main Particle Gun

Heavy Converging Beam Cannon... or if you like it the long way, Bow-Firing Super Dimension Energy Cannon with beam-polarizing converging system. See above for my explanation of how these weapons work... it's not a particle beam cannon.



Converging Beam Cannon Clusters

These guns aren't really clustered... but there are numerous converging beam cannon turrets of quite a large size scattered across the hull. (These are the visible turrets the ship almost never uses...)



Dual 400mm Howitzers

No such animal... this is what destroids are for.



Ground Mecha Turrets

These are not turrets... or salvaged mecha made into same.

The destroids seemingly sprouting from the Macross's hull in the original series are simply standing inside purpose built through-deck elevators and enclosures on the outer hull.



The streets are mostly reserved for pedestrians. Cars (electric, of course, see below) have their own avenues at "ground level" (i.e. the lowest sublevel).

Unfamiliar with the concept of sidewalks? Because sidewalks are what we see in the movie. Also, those cars are officially mentioned as using hydrogen engines, not battery-electric.



Red Light District

Amusingly, Macross Chronicle DOES mention a "pleasure district/quarter"... though what we see is more "adult oriented" than simply a wild part of town. The original series shows us a cabaret club, and DYRL shows us an actual love hotel (a hourly hotel specifically for "that").



Communications System

The Macross is indeed equipped with a vast array of communication and detection equipment including sophisticated long-range and short-range radar systems, LADAR and LIDAR systems, infrared and other optical imaging systems, etc. Before it lost its fold system, it also possessed a cross-dimension radar system capable of faster-than-light target detection at a range of over 26 billion kilometers (1 light day) and a fold communications system with a range of at least several hundred light years.

Its detection systems are able to image and track tens of thousands of targets simultaneously and its communications system can coordinate data links and communications services between thousands of fighters and other mecha simultaneously.



Bridge

The bridge crew's corrected layout is as follows:

A. Air Tactical Group Officer's Station (Chief Operator)
B. Chief Weaponry Officer's Station
C. Shipmaster's Chair*
D. Ship Administrator's Station (Level 1 Operator)
E. Communications Station (Level 1 Operator)
F. Information Analysis Station
G. Information Analysis Main Monitor

* I use "Shipmaster" here because the UN Spacy is actually a Space Army of sorts, with its own flying corps. The actual word used in Japanese for a ship's captain is different from the Army rank or the Navy rank that are both referred to as "Captain" in English. Bruno J. Global, the commander of the SDF-1 Macross, actually held the rank of Brigadier General, though he was almost always referred to by his title of office.



ARMD Platform

ARMD-series (Armaments Rigged-up Moving Deck) Space Carrier



The ARMD Weapons Platforms were to be put in orbit just before the very first Zentran assault, to serve as mobile fighter bases. A ring of such platforms would have formed a solid defensive perimeter, or so the military strategists thought.

Originally, the ARMDs were conceived as stationary airfields in space... positioned in geosynchronous orbit and at the Lagrange points to protect vital installations. They were adapted into space carriers early into the Macross's reconstruction, and proved to be terrifyingly good at their job in the decades that followed, in part due to the simplicity and robustness of their designs.

There were several ships of this class serving in the UN Spacy's forces prior to the first space war, and hundreds were built after. This class was eventually phased out and replaced by an improved version... the Daedalus II-class space assault carrier.



The ARMD's original Super Valkyrie fighter complement was gradually replaced by the more advanced VF-2SS models and later, by the VF-2JA.

In fact, neither of those fighters had been introduced at the time the Macross was formally retired and relegated to Culture Park.



Dimensions:
Length: 450m
Width: 220m
Mass: 174,000 tonnes



Power System

Thermonuclear reaction heat pile system cluster



Fold System:

Not installed (ARMD-01 and ARMD-02)
OTM Fold System (ARMD-09 and later either at completion or, for 09 and 10, via in-field installation)



Weapons Systems:

2x OTM Guided Converging Beam Cannons
Anti-warship thermonuclear reaction missile launchers



Particle Cannon

The underside of the ARMDs attached to the post-retrofit SDF-1 Macross and all retrofit Macross-class ships in the field has been converted, along with the front of the "legs", into extra resonance fold waveguides to expand the diameter of the ship's main heavy converging beam cannon. This cannot be fired independently from the rest of the Macross's main gun system.



Mobile Weapons Systems:

262 Variable Fighters (VF-1 Super Valkyrie)
66 QF-3000E Ghost
Numerous other craft

(The Macross has two ARMDs, and may possibly carry its 212 VFs inside the body of the ship itself as well, for a theoretical total of 736 Variable Fighters and 132 Ghosts when combined with its ARMDs)

[ShadowLogan]

Why would you WANT more Robotech? Let's be frank here, friend. There's very little that could be done with Robotech. Why? The franchise's track record is so abysmal that no outside investor will have anything to do with it*, more than a third of the content is eternally off-limits for future use**, its story has little to offer that isn't already present in Macross, and its sales have historically been on the dismal side of extremely poor.

If you can have Macross, why bother with the imitation brand?

For the story aspects. I disagree. One can find a variety of sucessful shows that are clones of each other afterall, so Robotech being a Macross clone doesn't mean it can't work. Especially if they proceede in new directions to make it its own thing.

** Macross's contents are absolutely off-limits, and while it hasn't been commented on it appears Southern Cross's contents may be off-limits too... leaving only 30% of the show to use.

I don't know about SDC:SC, though IMHO all 3 shows contents should be seen as off-limits to use. IIRC though, wasn't there some project to involve TRM setting that got shelved due to the popularity of the setting?

[Seto Kaiba]

For the story aspects. I disagree. One can find a variety of sucessful shows that are clones of each other afterall, so Robotech being a Macross clone doesn't mean it can't work.

True, but the production staff of those shows made the effort to develop their own intellectual property and take the concepts that inspired their story to new and different places. Doing otherwise would only earn you a visit from the original's very upset legal counsel. Robotech didn't do that, they made it from Macross and two (self-confessed) Macross knockoffs that failed in Japan, in an effort to cash in on the success of Transformers. Literally everything they've done with it in the past thirty years has proven that Robotech can't stand separately from the OSM... and that the fans will only care if it's the continuing adventures of the Macross Saga cast and their relatives. The one time they'd tried to make a clean break from the OSM, it was the worst failure in the franchise's history.

Why keep Robotech around if the only part of it people actually care about is Macross? The sales figures prove beyond dispute that very few Robotech fans care about the Masters Saga and New Generation, so the smart thing to do would be to dispense with the pretense that Robotech's story has value separate from the shows it was adapted from, and just give the audience Macross instead.

An unbroken thirty year streak of failure PROVES that Robotech can't work... and over thirty years of of consistent success proves that Macross DOES work.

IIRC though, wasn't there some project to involve TRM setting that got shelved due to the popularity of the setting?

Not in this lifetime, boyo.

You're probably thinking of the original plans for Robotech: the Untold Story, where Tatsunoko shot Harmony Gold's plans for a Macross-based movie down because they were already promoting DYRL?, and Carl Macek had to make do with using Southern Cross instead... which had distinctly negative effects on the already-doomed movie. It's the most reviled part of Robotech, to the extent that it got the show canceled in more than one market and Toynami won't touch it with a ten foot pole, citing that it's a guaranteed no-sell.

[Seto Kaiba]

Macross II Deck Plans Volume 3 Cont.

Welcome to Culture Park
The Culture Park is unique. Within its 1500km^2 area lie the last of humankind's treasures.

Recreations of, for the most part... the orbital bombardment the Zentradi Army's Boddole Zer 465th Main Fleet carried out was pretty comprehensive.



It's an entire world in itself; it has its own hotels, restaurants, theaters, security personnel, university, and administration.

In point of fact, it has none of these things... it's just a park full of replica monuments, a monument to all the cultures of Earth that no longer exist.



In addition to its many museums, there are theaters, with every kind of show, an amusement park, a zoo, and a botanical garden.

Nope.



Not only does it feature collections constantly enriched with new discoveries and new exhibits - and whose quality is improved by new technologies - but there are also some exhibits which focus on what the centuries to come will bring.

No there aren't.



History

Completely incorrect. Culture Park didn't exist in the mid-2030s.

They're missing a zero in the number of surviving humans... 1 million, not 100,000.



UN Spacy Headquarters

UN Forces Headquarters... this building housed far more than just the UN Spacy's brass, it also had the UN Army, UN Navy, UN Air Force, UN Marines, and the UN Spacy Marines.



The United Nations Spacy is a powerful, tentacular organization dedicated to the protection of Earth.

The Unified Space Forces (UN Spacy) is but one division of the UN Forces, the military of the Earth Unity Government, which is a massive (and massively powerful) organization dedicated to the defense of Earth and all of humanity's settlements throughout the solar system and the wider galaxy. The other branches of the UN Forces include the UN Spacy Marines, the UN Army, UN Air Force, UN Navy, and UN Marines... Macross II was the first time the individual branches could be told apart on sight, as each has their own color variation on the standard uniform. (The khaki-uniformed officer in the latter episodes is shown to bear a service patch labeled UN ARMY.)



The first incarnation of the United Nations Spacy headquarters was built in 2031.

The original Unified Forces Headquarters was Grand Cannon I near the Alaska-Yukon border... located six kilometers underground. Headquarters after the war was the New Unified Forces Command center which was located inside the Macross itself*, until some unspecified period after the 2030s, at which point the artificial island seen in 2091-2092 was built. No sign of the island was present in 2037. The population ascribed to the base is probably exaggerated significantly.


* This installation is mistaken for the bridge of the SDF-2 in Robotech.



Spaceports dot the land around the main towers.

No they don't... ships make water landings around the perimeter of the island, as seen in the OVA itself.



Manufacturing Plants

Barring facilities to offer basic maintenance and resupply, there are none... that'e be what those factory satellites at the Lagrange points are for.

[Seto Kaiba]

UN Spacy Moonbase

One of them, anyway... there were several, even during the first space war.

The two most important lunar bases were Apollo Base and Grand Cannon IV... the former being one of two major shipyards in the Sol system before the capture of the first factory satellite, and the site where they started building the SDF-2 in 2003.

There were also a number of civilian settlements including Moon Riverside City.



Using technology and advanced science found in the crashed alien spacecraft at Macross Island, the nations of Earth built outposts on the Moon, Mars, and as far as the moons of Jupiter in the late part of the Twentieth Century.

Whooboy... big ol' mess of Robotech-isms here.

First, it's South Ataria Island, not Macross Island.

Second, there were no outposts around Jupiter in the DYRLverse, and only civilian satellite cities and a host of resource stations on the Jovian moons in the main Macross chronology. They're confused, and citing MOSPEADA information for some reason.

There were multiple bases and a Grand Cannon on Luna, and Salla Base on Mars in the two Macross timelines. Salla Base had been abandoned during the UN Wars, though, and the return fleet carrying the base's staff was destroyed by an Oberth-class destroyer that had been stolen by the Anti-UN, and was subsequently hunted down and destroyed by another destroyer captained by Bruno J. Global.

Third, the only base that was under construction before the end of the 20th century was Apollo Base.



Manufacturing Plant

More of a shipyard, honestly, if this is meant to represent Apollo Base. The base in the OVA was not identified by name, but it likely is Apollo Base.



Luna City

Apollo Base Colony.



The Freedom Festival

The Moon Festival.

It's not held to commemorate the end of the first space war, it's a propaganda event held to debut the artist whose work will be the foundation of the Minmay Attack for that year and for the UN Forces to go and show off their latest toys for the general public to ooh and aah over. Being selected as that year's Minmay Attack performer is a great and much-sought-after honor, though, so they got that part right.



Patrick "McDog" McDougall

The description of this NPC as the most fervant bigot really doesn't fit the Macross II setting... like every person on Earth, Patrick McDougall would've grown up on a world where a significant portion of the population is either alien or alien-human hybrid. The UN Forces had no idea that the Mardook were not a group of rogue Zentradi until very late in the game, so it would be impossible for McDougall to know that Earth's attackers weren't just a particularly well-armed group of rogue Zentradi until much later. There's also the problem that Earth's attitude towards hostile aliens was that it was one of pity, not hatred or fear. Their attitude was "these roving bands of Zentradi haven't found the peace we have, and that's tragic. Let's help them!", rather than "oh my god evil aliens KILL KILL KILL!".

This ain't Robotech.



Coming up next... thoughts from the Macross II Prequel Expansion Draft semi-sarcastically called Macross 1.5: Quamzin Strikes Back Out.

[ShadowLogan]

You're probably thinking of the original plans for Robotech: the Untold Story,...

No this was more recent, possibly around the time the LA movie idea was floating around, it wasn't connected with RT:TUS in any way. I'm aware of plans for RT:TUS.

An unbroken thirty year streak of failure PROVES that Robotech can't work... and over thirty years of of consistent success proves that Macross DOES work.

In some respects RT suffers from a similar phenomena as Voltron did in the 80s, that being the Lion Force was more popular than the Vehicle Force. So 1st series arcs beign more popular than the later ones (Voltron changed plans for the 3rd arc by having new episodes made instead of adapting the 3rd series like they originally intended).

And some of those failures involve giving fans Macross characters they want to see (RT2). Plus there is the fact they are still able to attempt something 30years later at least suggests it can work on some level, how many shows of similar age/older can attest to that though? I'm not talking rehash releases (like DVD/Blue-Ray compilations), I'm talking whole new material (such that it is LLA, RT2, TSC, numerous comics, RPG, novels, etc).

True, but the production staff of those shows made the effort to develop their own intellectual property and take the concepts that inspired their story to new and different places.

True, but aspects of the story for RT are somewhat distinct from the OSMs (I have seen GCM and SDC:SC), so RT does have some aspects that are its own that they can build on. I think its a mistake to say the majority want Macross, but they might just be the most vocal.

[Seto Kaiba]

No this was more recent, possibly around the time the LA movie idea was floating around, it wasn't connected with RT:TUS in any way. I'm aware of plans for RT:TUS.

Then no... the Masters Saga is something that Harmony Gold has always tried to steer well clear of, with its status as the winner of the unpopularity contest firmly in mind. The only times they've touched on its contents have been to demonize, mock, or otherwise use 'em as a chew toy.

And some of those failures involve giving fans Macross characters they want to see (RT2).

Yeah... look at how that's also the most popular of the failed Robotech projects, precisely because everyone wants the continuing adventures of Rick Hunter and his chums from the Macross Saga. That's how it always shakes out. The new characters were just a Generation Xerox of the Macross Saga ones, clearly in the hopes that that'd sell the show to the viewers. Didn't work, naturally... because the staff ran the project into the ground and produced a hacked-together imitation brand mess. What draws the fans in is the promise of more Macross Saga references... almost nobody cares about Untold Story, and the only thing people could talk about in Robotech: Love Live Alive was that it'd maybe used a Sentinels ripoff Macross mecha in a blink-and-you'll-miss-it scene.

Wanting to imitate Macross won't let Robotech copy Macross's success...

Plus there is the fact they are still able to attempt something 30years later at least suggests it can work on some level, how many shows of similar age/older can attest to that though?

Pfft... it suggests nothing of the kind. All it proves is exactly what we should all already know... that the Robotech franchise only exists today because it's not Harmony Gold's main (or even secondary) line of business. It's a glorified hobby for the company, one which brings in so little that Harmony Gold's own staff admits that their management doesn't think is worth their time or money.

The ONLY thing keeping Harmony Gold from canning Robotech altogether is that they aren't dependent on it. Their investment in it is so small that it's barely a blip on their budget, and thus even when it fails they're only losing chump change. If they were dependent on it, the franchise would have died in 1987 along with the company because they can't deliver the goods.

True, but aspects of the story for RT are somewhat distinct from the OSMs (I have seen GCM and SDC:SC), so RT does have some aspects that are its own that they can build on. I think its a mistake to say the majority want Macross, but they might just be the most vocal.

I think you're wrong. I can say with certainty that Macross is what sells, because a simple look at Harmony Gold's merchandise lines is sufficient to prove it. When did sales of Toynami MPCs take a dive? When they ran out of Macross designs and tried to hack one of their own together before going to MOSPEADA designs. If we take their own cited figures at face value, it's a sixty-six percent sales drop after they ran out of genuine Macross designs. Even though RT2E started with the Shadow Chronicles, where did RRT start? Macross. That's where the money is. When they did a video game, they got mediocre reviews and mediocre sales with Battlecry, a tissue paper thin ripoff of a host of different Macross games from the same period... but when they tried to do MOSPEADA the bottom fell out of the sales AND the ratings.

Give the people what they want. The people want Macross. The people buy Macross.

[jaymz]

Just to point out, LLA isn't really new........

[ShadowLogan]

Then no... the Masters Saga is something that Harmony Gold has always tried to steer well clear of, with its status as the winner of the unpopularity contest firmly in mind.

I'm pretty sure they have at least considered it for a movie, but if its on the 'net somewhere the obvious search terms haven't turned up anything. So moving on.

Yeah... look at how that's also the most popular of the failed Robotech projects, precisely because everyone wants the continuing adventures of Rick Hunter and his chums from the Macross Saga.

One of the things I disliked about the Sentinels adaption I'm familar with IS THE FOCUS on those Macross Saga characters, so clearly not everyone wants the coninuing adventures.

Wanting to imitate Macross won't let Robotech copy Macross's success..

No it won't. Not on its own at any rate. RT can certainly borrow ideas from other shows (this isn't unheard of by any stretch in general terms in the movie/tv industry), but they still have to do so in an effective manner. And doing so in an effective manner seems to be something they can't pull off.

Pfft... it suggests nothing of the kind. All it proves is exactly what we should all already know... that the Robotech franchise only exists today because it's not Harmony Gold's main (or even secondary) line of business. It's a glorified hobby for the company, one which brings in so little that Harmony Gold's own staff admits that their management doesn't think is worth their time or money.

Actually it does. HG is still a business, so it is unlikely they are going to put resources into something expecting it to fail consistently in terms of return on investment. That they've been able to do so for ~30years does show that there is something there or they would have stopped long ago.

I think you're wrong. I can say with certainty that Macross is what sells, because a simple look at Harmony Gold's merchandise lines is sufficient to prove it. When did sales of Toynami MPCs take a dive? When they ran out of Macross designs and tried to hack one of their own together before going to MOSPEADA designs.

I'm not sure if I would trust sales data. 1st Macross has more material (in general) to sell as part of RT, so from that POV it can appear to sell better. And the products produced may not appeal to every fan for a variety of reasons (cost, enjoyment factor, niche w/n a niche, etc).

Even though RT2E started with the Shadow Chronicles, where did RRT start? Macross.

Perosnally I think the 2E RPG should have started in chronological order and not jumping around in time they've been doing to cover the basic 3 periods effectively. But that might just be me. RRT though I really do think should have started with a battle that was cross-generation that is created for the game or "expanded upon" form an existing battle (ex. BoRP) before getting into specific arcs, but again that might just be me. The RRT:Macross though will also appeal to straight SDF:M fans and (IINM) Battletech fans so it will also have the wider base to sell to, unlike the other two arcs so I would completely expect to see a sales drop-off since those customers aren't likely interested in those later arcs.

Just to point out, LLA isn't really new......

It is "new" in the sense that it has recently been made part of RT (and in dubbing and footage added), though the core of LLA is pretty old.

[jaymz]

Yeah all but maybe 10 minutes of footage is old.....and it hardly "adds" anything to Robotech honestly....

At best it was a "um here we did something so we can say we did SOMETHING" nothing more. It took years for this to get done....they have had it significantly longer than that from all I have seen. YEARS to get an old OVA dubbed with new footage added that to me was abit disjointed to the rest of the footage.....I'd rather have not gotten it at all to be honest.

In regards to the Macross characters... SL I honestly think you are in the minority....when they canned all the Sentinels stuff until they decide if they want to actually use part of it, people were VERY upset and the whole Sentinel story arc revolves around those characters from Macross. Not Jack and Karen and other secondary characters.

Are there those who want new? Yep. Most from what I have seen want the "what happened to the SDF-3" story and not "Shadow Rising" etc. and unlike Seto I actually do like Robotech and thigns fromall three eras, though granted I am more of a Macross fan.

Actually it does. HG is still a business,

A business that my guess puts as little effort and money into Robotech in order to maintain its hold on the trademarks and copyrights and nothing more. Why do I say this? Because if they really had a will to make it successful they could put the money into it to MAKE it successful and they have done no such thing. The quality of what they have done is perfect evidence of that.

Perosnally I think the 2E RPG should have started in chronological order

|Except that TSC was relatively "new" at the time and what most people could latch onto right away unlike the series itself (at that time). You will notice they did go in chronological order after that with Macross, Masters and New Gen. I understand the business side of why they did it. release a game based on the newest product available to grab those interested, release the older "eras" as people get further into the series which is older than TSC. I didn't like that did it but I understand it.

Edit - If they were only releasing the RPG NOW, then I;d agree that they go in full chronological order.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm pretty sure they have at least considered it for a movie, but if its on the 'net somewhere the obvious search terms haven't turned up anything.

I'm dead certain they haven't... because the Masters Saga's ratings have been chronically terrible for the entirety of Robotech's history, and Masters Saga merchandise has also historically sold like it comes with a free case of syphilis. There's a difference between "inept" and "suicidal". RTSC is the former, but doing a Masters Saga movie? That'd be the latter.

One of the things I disliked about the Sentinels adaption I'm familar with IS THE FOCUS on those Macross Saga characters, so clearly not everyone wants the coninuing adventures. [...]

Was there ever any doubt? You can't please everybody... but you're very much in the minority when the main selling point of almost every Robotech title has been "the continuing adventures of Rick Hunter and friends".

No it won't. Not on its own at any rate. RT can certainly borrow ideas from other shows (this isn't unheard of by any stretch in general terms in the movie/tv industry), but they still have to do so in an effective manner. And doing so in an effective manner seems to be something they can't pull off.

Now THAT is true... just look at how the Shadow Chronicles has been blasted as a bastardization of MOSPEADA trying to rip off Macross and the second Battlestar Galactica series with some ripoffs of Star Trek: the Next Generation characters (Data and Geordi) thrown in for flavor.

Actually it does. HG is still a business, so it is unlikely they are going to put resources into something expecting it to fail consistently in terms of return on investment.

And yet, that's exactly what they've done... and why there's such a huge gap between Robotech's failures. They try something, it fails, they wait about ten years, and try again once management forgets how they wasted half a million dollars or more on a project that they didn't even get to finish. That's the reason that, as Tommy and Kevin have attested, even Harmony Gold's own management won't throw any more than the bare minimum budget at a Robotech project.

I'm not sure if I would trust sales data. 1st Macross has more material (in general) to sell as part of RT, so from that POV it can appear to sell better.

Actually, since the point of example was the Toynami MPC line... the best-selling and most profitable part of Robotech's merchandise line. The MOSPEADA entries outnumber the Macross ones (10 vs 6) and sold so poorly that Toynami scaled the limited runs back from 15,000 to 5,000 and then canned the entire line. It's even less impressive when you factor in Harmony Gold staffers comments that a given MPC only ever sells about 1/2 of its limited run. (So it's really a reduction from 7,500 to 2,500.)

Just to point out, LLA isn't really new......

It is "new" in the sense that it has recently been made part of RT (and in dubbing and footage added), though the core of LLA is pretty old.

And yet it's not new in the sense that the animation was decades old and virtually everybody who had a net connection had already seen it... but then, almost all of the "new" stuff is actually recycled material from much older work... which is better than the old comics, where a lot of it is just blatant copyright infringement... with the authors stealing from everything from Macross sequels to Gundam to even Independence Day.



Anyway, moving past the fantasy that Robotech has even the metaphorical snowball's chance...

[Seto Kaiba]

Thoughts from an Expansion: Quamzin Strikes Back Out
A thoughtful look back at the earlier Zentradi wars


2010-2012 AD: Alien Integration
After the short-lived cease-fire agreement signed on 11 September 2010 and the subsequent fleet battle between the Zentradi and Meltrandi in Earth orbit, the UN Spacy's sole surviving warship was left with an unenviable task... rebuilding human society and culture with the remaining 1 million human survivors. The biggest hurdle in the task of rebuilding a working society on Earth was the remaining elements of the two alien fleets. The destruction of the Boddole Zer and Laplamitz mobile fortresses, along with a substantial portion of both fleets, had left the survivors scattered and disorganized. Potentially hostile warships had scattered far and wide across the galaxy, while a number of those which had the most contact with their human allies opted to remain in the Sol system. With more than eight times as many aliens as humans on Earth and hundreds of warships now nominally allied with the shattered remnants of the UN Forces, there was little option but to attempt to integrate the aliens into human society.

The newly reestablished UN Government's first order of business was to begin atmospheric clean-up with the aim of rendering Earth's surface capable of supporting human settlers long-term. Alongside that was an initiative to miclone as many of the Zentradi and Meltrandi as possible, both to reduce the burden on resources and help them better integrate into society. A new city was built around the final landing site of the Macross in Alaska, and a number of other, smaller settlements sprang up around vital resources.

The UN Forces did encounter trouble with renegade Zentradi for a time, and a number of them were killed during various acts of guerrilla warfare. The de facto ringleader, Quamzin Kravshera, fled into space with some of his forces and would not be heard from again for decades.

Between minor skirmishes with rogue Zentradi and Meltrandi on the ground and in space, there was little distraction from the task of rebuilding and preparing for humanity's first foray outside its native solar system.


2012-2035 (A New Era)
With the task of rebuilding well underway, the UN Government looked to space colonization to prevent a second attack from destroying the species altogether. The SDF-2, having recently been converted mid-construction into the first Megaroad-class space emigration ship, was launched in 2012 with former Macross flight controller Major Misa Ichijo in command. The ship was escorted by a modest fleet of new ARMD-class carriers and Zentradi warships, and its escort detail was armed with a mixture of VF-1 Super Valkyries and the first batch of the new VF-4 Siren, marking the start of a new era for humanity. The fleet finally departed the Sol system in 2014.

With the ancient Protoculture's cloning technology bolstering the human population and providing a huge reserve of technically-capable starship crews and other skilled laborers, the UN Forces were able to send numerous fleets into space to settle other worlds while reinforcing its position on Earth. New ships of the Macross-class were produced in short order, and used as fleet escorts and colony ships in their own right, while the UN Forces captured large numbers of rogue Zentradi and Meltrandi warships left over from the war and even seized a factory satellite in the process.

The introduction of vast amounts of undamaged overtechnology for study resulted in huge improvements being made to humanity's own technology, allowing them to make large jumps forward in shipbuilding and other defense fields, and to recover huge swathes of Earth's destroyed ecosystem using advanced alien gene-technology.

One such area of improvement, the Variable Fighter, was headed by the newly established Takachihof Group... a new defense corporation founded by the members of destroyed defense contractors whose engineers had accompanied the Macross on her maiden voyage to carry out space trials on the VF-1's equipment. Led by Dr. H. Takachihof, the team had already hacked together the highly effective VE-1 ELINT Seeker AWACS Valkyrie from VT-1 Ostrich training planes and surplus FAST pack and radar gear, which had been instrumental in the Macross's defense during the war. Setting their sights higher, and incorporating huge improvements in the technology they worked with, the Takachihof Group began the development of an improved VF-1 Valkyrie. The end result was the VF-1R "Refined Valkyrie" series and semi-permanent Super Pack II enhancement system. Also called the Attack Valkyrie, the three variant series entered service and by 2036 had almost completely replaced the original VF-1 Valkyrie. Alongside their Refined Valkyrie, the Takachihof Group also applied the new technology to their second craft, the VF-4 Siren, which by 2037 had incorporated the earliest forerunners of the VF-2SS's auto-attack bits and a heavy particle beam rifle for anti-warship attacks.


Coming up next... 2036-2037, Quamzin's Return and the Three Way War.

[ShadowLogan]

At best it was a "um here we did something so we can say we did SOMETHING" nothing more. It took years for this to get done....they have had it significantly longer than that from all I have seen. YEARS to get an old OVA dubbed with new footage added that to me was abit disjointed to the rest of the footage.....I'd rather have not gotten it at all to be honest.

I haven't picked up RT:LLA, nor seen the OSM version (IINM it isn't part of the ADV GCM set I have), based on comments/reviews I'm not overly impressed enough to get it and a second copy of TSC, especially for x-# of minutes of new footage for what is essentially a clip-show (I normally skip pure clip-show episodes). And your right it does come across as a "see we're doing something".

In regards to the Macross characters... SL I honestly think you are in the minority....when they canned all the Sentinels stuff until they decide if they want to actually use part of it, people were VERY upset and the whole Sentinel story arc revolves around those characters from Macross. Not Jack and Karen and other secondary characters.

Are there those who want new? Yep. Most from what I have seen want the "what happened to the SDF-3" story and not "Shadow Rising" etc. and unlike Seto I actually do like Robotech and thigns fromall three eras, though granted I am more of a Macross fan.

I maybe in the minority, but Seto makes it seem like EVERYONE wants Macross when that just isn't the case. Macross-want-ism though might be the largest single block, but it is by no means the only block.

Actually, since the point of example was the Toynami MPC line... the best-selling and most profitable part of Robotech's merchandise line. The MOSPEADA entries outnumber the Macross ones (10 vs 6) and sold so poorly that Toynami scaled the limited runs back from 15,000 to 5,000 and then canned the entire line. It's even less impressive when you factor in Harmony Gold staffers comments that a given MPC only ever sells about 1/2 of its limited run. (So it's really a reduction from 7,500 to 2,500.)

Actually don't forget that some of those 6 VF-1 models also had the seperate expansions (FAST Pack), so the number is more even than 10 NG vs 6 TMS, but in terms of products I wasn't looking specifically at the MPCs but in general terms (and thinking specifically of the Novels and Video distribution).

Now THAT is true... just look at how the Shadow Chronicles has been blasted as a bastardization of MOSPEADA trying to rip off Macross and the second Battlestar Galactica series with some ripoffs of Star Trek: the Next Generation characters (Data and Geordi) thrown in for flavor.

The phenomena though isn't limited to just Robotech though in borrowing ideas, you can see it in other shows/movie. I don't get the impression of MOSPEDEA trying to rip off Macross in TSC, the Battlestar Galacitcia remake is a definate (and I really never cared for the 2nd series from what little I was able to catch did not leave me wanting to follow it, the few times I watch it where basically time killers).

[keir451]

Patrick "McDog" McDougall

The description of this NPC as the most fervant bigot really doesn't fit the Macross II setting... like every person on Earth, Patrick McDougall would've grown up on a world where a significant portion of the population is either alien or alien-human hybrid. The UN Forces had no idea that the Mardook were not a group of rogue Zentradi until very late in the game, so it would be impossible for McDougall to know that Earth's attackers weren't just a particularly well-armed group of rogue Zentradi until much later. There's also the problem that Earth's attitude towards hostile aliens was that it was one of pity, not hatred or fear. Their attitude was "these roving bands of Zentradi haven't found the peace we have, and that's tragic. Let's help them!", rather than "oh my god evil aliens KILL KILL KILL!".

I both agree and disagree. I DO agree that McDougal seems over the top for the time frame of Macross II, and he should honestly have no foreknowledge of the Marduk. However despite the population of Macross II being very multi-racial, the potential for racism of any sort can and will likely still exist, simply because we are human. It really doesn't take much for a person to be a bigot, it could simply be that he had a "bad" encounter w/ a Zentran or Meltran person in his past or his parents did, or he lost a family member or more during the last attack. Simply put humans can and will find the stupidest of reasons to hate someone just because they're different, no matter how "inclusive" the society there will always be those who feel that the "outsiders" should just "go home". And, even more unfortunately, some of them WILL end up in the military.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] when they canned all the Sentinels stuff until they decide if they want to actually use part of it, people were VERY upset and the whole Sentinel story arc revolves around those characters from Macross. Not Jack and Karen and other secondary characters.

Though Jack and Karen barely count as original characters anyway, as they're basically a watered-down knockoff of their counterparts in the Macross cast... something the Sentinels OVA even made no effort to hide (and even very blatantly admitted to right in the dialog).

I maybe in the minority, but Seto makes it seem like EVERYONE wants Macross when that just isn't the case. Macross-want-ism though might be the largest single block, but it is by no means the only block.

Actually, if you read my last post, you'll find I very specifically indicated that it wasn't EVERYONE, but a significant majority whose Robotech "wants" are basically just Macross. It's a very small, but vocal, minority who have more than a peripheral interest in the Southern Cross or MOSPEADA-derived portions of the story. So small a minority, in fact, that one of Harmony Gold's licensees make no secret about there being no business case in catering to its members.

For as long as Robotech has existed, the Macross portion of the series has been the only part that has actually mattered in terms of ratings or merchandising. That's why every single attempt at the continuation of the Robotech story except one has been based around Macross. That's what the fans care about, and that's what sells. The one time they deviated from that, it was the worst and most disastrous failure in Robotech's history... something even Robotech fans weren't able to pretend wasn't a complete turd.

Actually don't forget that some of those 6 VF-1 models also had the seperate expansions (FAST Pack), so the number is more even than 10 NG vs 6 TMS, but in terms of products I wasn't looking specifically at the MPCs but in general terms (and thinking specifically of the Novels and Video distribution).

As an addendum to an existing item, not a stand-alone item. It just goes to prove my point, though... Macross moves merchandise, the other two parts don't. Video sales? That might be even worse, when you consider that Robotech doesn't usually sell more than a few thousand copies worldwide when new releases come out... no doubt partly because they've flooded the market with a number of similar box sets that have only minor variations in the "DVD Extras", in the hopes of pocket-mining the terminally gullible.

I don't get the impression of MOSPEDEA trying to rip off Macross in TSC, [...]

MOSPEADA was a self-confessed Macross ripoff before it was ever included in Robotech*, but it's hard to argue that RTSC isn't trying to rip off Macross when the leaked summary of the plot reads like DYRL? played out with Battlestar Galactica factions, they slapped the Macross FAST packs on a Legioss, and they even had plans to make the Ark Angel transform like the Macross, the concept art for which we've all seen.

* Genesis Climber MOSPEADA's creators directly attribute the show's change in focus from the titular Ride Armors to the transforming fighters to the show's toy partner wanting a piece of the huge sales of Takatoku's VF-1 toys after Macross came out. The TLEAD, which Robotech fans know as the Beta fighter, was actually added to the show for this exact reason... to beef up the number of toy fighters they could sell to get a piece of Macross's action.

[Seto Kaiba]

However despite the population of Macross II being very multi-racial, the potential for racism of any sort can and will likely still exist, simply because we are human.

It just doesn't fit with the Macross setting, period... the only time we've seen anti-alien racism in the series after the original was Macross Plus, and everyone except the elderly general spouting it was a little horrified by it.

This is a setting where aliens are (technically) human too, and the military brass has a significant number of Zentradi and Meltrandi in it. An openly bigoted officer would find himself out on his ear or land a permanent assignment scrubbing toilets on a deep-space survey ship instead of in charge of an elite fighter squadron.

Note that nothing in his bio says he has any hostile feelings for the Zentradi or Meltrandi... JUST for the Mardook, though that would be impossible for him to even know that the Mardook are a thing, since the military didn't know anything about them until Silvie told them later in the story.

[Alpha 11]

I've said it before, but if I could, I'd buy HG and just let Macross in, as long a we could still do Robotech, even if we had to send everything to them to approve it. [...]

Now, I know I've explained this before... but those two things are mutually exclusive propositions. After the fraudulent claims of ownership of all of Macross, the threats they sent to Macross import groups, and their having started the Big West v. Tatsunoko legal mess, Big West has made it quite clear through their actions that they will not let Harmony Gold or anyone associated with it be involved in the distribution of Macross. Clearly and understandably, they think that Harmony Gold bad behavior is not something that should be rewarded... and rightly so.

At least we would get more Robotech that way, even if it came slowly.

Why would you WANT more Robotech? Let's be frank here, friend. There's very little that could be done with Robotech. Why? The franchise's track record is so abysmal that no outside investor will have anything to do with it*, more than a third of the content is eternally off-limits for future use**, its story has little to offer that isn't already present in Macross, and its sales have historically been on the dismal side of extremely poor.

If you can have Macross, why bother with the imitation brand?

* Harmony Gold actually admitted to having put off work on Shadow Rising for exactly this reason... they were hoping the proposed live-action movie would get made and succeed enough that it'd fix this problem.

** Macross's contents are absolutely off-limits, and while it hasn't been commented on it appears Southern Cross's contents may be off-limits too... leaving only 30% of the show to use.

I've also been wandering lately if Tommy really did try to do a bunch of stuff, but just can't, and what he and the others have put out is only out of desperation.

Nobody wants to invest in Robotech... not even Harmony Gold. That's what they were hoping their proposed live-action movie would fix. Funny how that turned out.

And couldn't you have said that about several other sci-fi series when they were first starting out. Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, and to some extent, Bablyon 5. If they were able to find so much in them, why can't we do so in Robotech. And what about the Sentinals? For some strange reason, they don't want to try that again. That looks like a road they could take, or at least try too. And if HG is the problem, what about another company buying Robotech and trying to do things without the HG baggage? And imitation brand? There are quite a few transforming mecha shows out there. Sorry, but I don't get you at times. On the one hand, you are very knowledgeable of Robotech, Macross, and the likes, so you seem to be a fan, but then, with these comments, I wander about that. Maybe you've explained in the past, and I don't remember, so maybe a little explaination, if possible? It would be helpful. And sorry if this is taking things off topic.

[Seto Kaiba]

And couldn't you have said that about several other sci-fi series when they were first starting out. Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, and to some extent, Bablyon 5.

There's an important difference there... they had original IP they could fully exploit, they had the money and the talent pool necessary to take full advantage of it, and they had substantial support from viewers.

The original Star Trek had trouble early on, but it was saved by a colossal and unprecedented write-in campaign that terrified the network into renewing it for a third season and the subsequent STUNNINGLY huge improvement in its ratings in reruns. Star Wars was something that Fox didn't believe in, but it had backing from people with the money to make it happen and creators willing to stake their fortunes on its success... and it exploded into a license to print money when it came out. Stargate's movie was capitalizing on an existing popular trend started by a book, so it wasn't flying blind, and the TV shows are capitalizing on the movie's moderate success. Babylon 5 is the only one on that list that was really flying blind, but its creators used the internet to great advantage to build interest and the show won an assortment of awards for dramatic presentation and visual effects because the production staff knew its cinematography.

Robotech, by way of contrast, has almost no original IP to work with. Almost everything in it, and indeed everything the fans actually care about, belongs to someone else... Studio Nue, Big West, or the one-time partner of same, Tatsunoko Productions. It had almost no money behind it, and no time to do the job right... the schedule being so tight that the staffers were sleeping in the halls and only eating at the pub across the street... and viewership-wise it was an unremarkable middle-of-the-pack series with terrible merchandising support trying to compete against two, already-established shows with very high quality toy lines behind them: Hasbro and Takara-Tomy's Transformers and Hasbro's G.I. Joe. Consequentially, it was largely ignored in most markets, and the attempts to capitalize on what painfully limited success it had were fatally undermined by the staff's lack of talent and failure to understand the industry and their audience. The crowning irony is that when they finally managed to get someone who actually knew what they were doing involved, they fired them right away for pointing out that the story was a tangled mess that made no sense... and then brought in a hack. So, having neither a clue about their audience or their industry, they tried and failed... again and again... and here we are.

Those iconic SF titles succeeded despite adversity because they had four things Robotech doesn't have... Money, Material, Talent, and Fans.

If they were able to find so much in them, why can't we do so in Robotech.

Because the only part of Robotech that matters a damn is the one part that they can't ever use if they don't want to be paying millions in damages after a copyright infringement lawsuit. Most fans hate the Masters Saga and are at best indifferent towards the New Generation.

And what about the Sentinals? For some strange reason, they don't want to try that again.

What's strange about it? They were toeing the line dangerously close a copyright infringement lawsuit in that project... and revisiting it would be even more dangerous now that they've soured relations with the Japanese owners of the Macross IP. They don't have the resources to revisit it even if they could get around the legal troubles, because no network will give them an episode commitment, and they seem to want one sight-unseen before doing any development work, if their marketing coordinator's comments are to be taken seriously... and the industry has NEVER worked that way.

If you want to pick up a copy of The Making of Star Trek from the late sixties, you can read all about the huge amount of development legwork you have to do to get an episode commitment in frankly excruciating detail, and in Gene Roddenberry's own words.

And if HG is the problem, what about another company buying Robotech and trying to do things without the HG baggage?

Who would want it? The franchise has an unbroken thirty year track record of abject failure... and the potential returns from scrapping it and making way for Macross licensing far outweigh the risks the new owner would have to undertake to develop new Robotech material. A new company in charge would not dismiss the legal problems... it would only intensify them, as the new owner would have to go familiarize itself with what it can and can't do, bogging itself down in legal approvals until the cows come home and risking lawsuits along the way.

Just look at what happened when FASA sold BattleTech and forgot to tell Catalyst Game Labs about their out-of-court settlement with Harmony Gold. Total fiasco.

Besides, can you imagine the amount of money Palladium could make on a Macross RPG if they gave up on Robotech and picked up a license to a mecha anime series that's usually considered second only to Yamato and Gundam in industry influence?

And imitation brand? There are quite a few transforming mecha shows out there. Sorry, but I don't get you at times.

Not to put a razor-fine point on it, but Robotech has been trying to ape Macross for as long as it's been attempting to keep its head above water. One of the reasons you'll never see reprints of the old comics is that so many of them engaged in actual copyright infringement in an effort to do this. RTSC's a pretty blatant exercise in trying to copy Macross as closely as possible as well... just look at all their efforts to Macross-ize MOSPEADA with Super Packs, a transforming Ark Angel concept, and the persistent reliance on Macross references. Everything they do is built around the appeal that their adaptation of the original Macross had... the appeal of the continuing story of those characters has been almost the sole factor driving the sequel development.

Harmony Gold has even famously tried to dismiss Macross to the Robotech fans, claiming that Robotech "improved" it and even lying through their teeth by claiming the Japanese creators thought their version was better. (Studio Nue's reaction to Robotech was along the lines of a horrified "Why would anyone DO that?!" when it was brought up in an interview.)

That's imitation-brand behavior there, friend.

On the one hand, you are very knowledgeable of Robotech, Macross, and the likes, so you seem to be a fan, but then, with these comments, I wander about that. Maybe you've explained in the past, and I don't remember, so maybe a little explaination, if possible? It would be helpful. And sorry if this is taking things off topic.

Put simply... I appreciate Robotech for what it was, a good gateway series for getting people into real anime back in the day. Even if its efforts went largely unnoticed, it was still trying to bring anime to the west's attention. I look at how it is now like an autopsy... it's dead, it has been since 1987, and the only real thing to do is examine the remains to see how it got where it is. Appreciate it as a piece of the industry's history, even if it's usually regarded as a shameful piece of that history, because history ought to be appreciated for what it is. That's how we learn from it.

The problem is that there's no sane way to kid yourself into thinking that Robotech has any kind of future potential. We're looking at an unbroken streak of almost thirty years of failure here. They proved pretty conclusively in that time that Robotech can't stand on its own... take away the OSM, and it loses everything that made anyone care about it in the first place. On top of that, they've proved, with the broadcast ratings and merchandise sales, that Macross is the only part of Robotech which brings in an audience. Even this recent Kickstarter, lauded as a great success because it raised so much money, has turned into a complete fiasco that left the fans feeling cheated and demanding refunds.

So, with that in mind, what value does keeping Robotech around have if all that really matters in it, both story-wise and in terms of the bottom line, is Macross? Why continue to hang on to a cheap imitation and let it roadblock genuine Macross when the Carl Macek's original goal was to promote Macross in the US? Harmony Gold doesn't have the talent pool or the money to fix this, and they don't have the reputation to attract someone who could. They're reduced to hoping someone else will rescue them, and guess what... that's all kinds of not happening. The best they've been able to do for SEVEN YEARS is trot out a chopped-up version of an almost 30 year old OVA with a few minutes of new animation, and even that was only released as part of a bundle with a pre-existing film in a transparent attempt to boost sales by getting fans to buy a second copy.

There won't be a comeback, and they're not going to do anything with the franchise... partly because they can't, but mostly because they don't know how. About all they've had to offer is excuses, and even HG's own staff is getting sick of it.

Unless you discount the failure of its merchandise line, Robotech has yet to have a single successful animated series. Macross has had fifteen successful animated series, and a sixteenth is on the way.




EDIT: As a note, I'm not trying to **** anyone off here... I'm just being frank. I make my living finding the problems with other people's processes and fixing them, and looking a this objectively I just don't see any value in keeping Robotech around. There are too many obstacles between it and success for there to be any chance of saving it... and it's now running counter to the very purpose it was conceived to serve.

[keir451]

However despite the population of Macross II being very multi-racial, the potential for racism of any sort can and will likely still exist, simply because we are human.

It just doesn't fit with the Macross setting, period... the only time we've seen anti-alien racism in the series after the original was Macross Plus, and everyone except the elderly general spouting it was a little horrified by it.

This is a setting where aliens are (technically) human too, and the military brass has a significant number of Zentradi and Meltrandi in it. An openly bigoted officer would find himself out on his ear or land a permanent assignment scrubbing toilets on a deep-space survey ship instead of in charge of an elite fighter squadron.

Note that nothing in his bio says he has any hostile feelings for the Zentradi or Meltrandi... JUST for the Mardook, though that would be impossible for him to even know that the Mardook are a thing, since the military didn't know anything about them until Silvie told them later in the story.

I absolutely agree that he should have no reason to have such feeelings toward the Mardook unless they were developed during the battle. However the simple fact is that, despite the setting, racism can and, possibly still does, exist. As I stated earlier, humans are VERY good at hating others who are different, even if they are human, for no explicable reason. It doesn't matter how integrated the population is or what he legal defintion is, there's ALWAYS going to be some morons who don't like someone else because they are "the other", that's been a component of human nature since prehistoric days and is unlikely to change even in a setting such as Macross II.

[ShadowLogan]

MOSPEADA was a self-confessed Macross ripoff before it was ever included in Robotech*, but it's hard to argue that RTSC isn't trying to rip off Macross when the leaked summary of the plot reads like DYRL? played out with Battlestar Galactica factions, they slapped the Macross FAST packs on a Legioss, and they even had plans to make the Ark Angel transform like the Macross, the concept art for which we've all seen.

I'm aware that GCM was influenced by SDF:M, but really hasn't done anything that in terms of taking something distinct from SDF:M. And neither has TSC for that matter unless transforming spaceships and FAST Packs-type systems are unqiue to Macross.

There's an important difference there... they had original IP they could fully exploit, they had the money and the talent pool necessary to take full advantage of it, and they had substantial support from viewers.

There are a few solutions here though for IP:
1. Move the time line forward to a poin that original IP can be created and maintained, but not so far ahead that it creates a disconnect (aborted RT3000) but not so close you still run into IP issues (TSC, Sent). RT is a multi-generation story afterall in its most well known form (Revell's RT pre-dates HGs and is different), so having a new arc(s) with all new material and later time frame should be familiar.
2. Reboot into an all new universe with all new IP designs for the 3 sagas.
3. Shift Robotech into a medium where they can fully exploit what original IP they have (ex. Novel).

Obviously they still need the resources to execture this, which likely is not going to come from HG without a Partner. And finding a partner seems to be difficult for them.

Babylon 5 is the only one on that list that was really flying blind

I'm not sure if they are truely flying blind. B5 came out around the same time as ST:DS9, and both seemed to have some parallels to each other (Space Station, get a battleship-starship, involved in several wars, etc) that I noticed the few times I watched it (B5 really didn't appeal to me, felt like a DS9 rip-off).

[keir451]

Seto wrote:
Babylon 5 is the only one on that list that was really flying blind
I'm not sure if they are truely flying blind. B5 came out around the same time as ST:DS9, and both seemed to have some parallels to each other (Space Station, get a battleship-starship, involved in several wars, etc) that I noticed the few times I watched it (B5 really didn't appeal to me, felt like a DS9 rip-off).

B5 was so far from being a DS9 rip off that the entire idea is laughable. While both series revolve around a space station that's about the only similarity they have. DS9 was pure 'Trek where as B5, rather accurately for once, portrayed what human technology might be like a thousand years from now. The character portrayals in both shows were excellent, but B5 allowed the characters to grow in ways that the DS9 characters couldn't because they were limited by the 'Trek universe.

[Seto Kaiba]

I absolutely agree that he should have no reason to have such feeelings toward the Mardook unless they were developed during the battle. However the simple fact is that, despite the setting, racism can and, possibly still does, exist.

It's just not something that's present in the setting... unlike Robotech, which is a pessimistic setting where there is ONLY war, Macross is a setting where humanity actually learns from its mistakes, and has largely put the business of bigotry behind it by the 2010s. The prevailing attitude towards the rogue alien forces in the galaxy is one of pity, not disdain. A character like McDougall would never have reached a command rank if he actually voiced anti-alien sentiment... or any rank, for that matter, when more than half the UN Forces are Zentradi and Meltrandi troops.

I'm aware that GCM was influenced by SDF:M, but really hasn't done anything that in terms of taking something distinct from SDF:M.

*facepalm* They retooled THE ENTIRE SHOW to focus more on transforming fighters in the hopes of copying Macross's success.

And neither has TSC for that matter unless transforming spaceships and FAST Packs-type systems are unqiue to Macross.

Oh stop, it's pretty freaking obvious what they were trying to copy... and the packs they put in are a dead ringer for the Macross ones. They might not be unique to Macross, but they are very distinctly Macross ripoffs in the Shadow Chronicles. Pretending otherwise is just damn silly, especially in light of the fact that this was done for SKULL SQUADRON and they even kept the naming convention from Macross.

There are a few solutions here though for IP:
1. Move the time line forward to a poin that original IP can be created and maintained, but not so far ahead that it creates a disconnect (aborted RT3000) but not so close you still run into IP issues (TSC, Sent).

Inevitably that means jettisoning the only parts of Robotech that 99% of the fans give a damn about, so that's a pretty guaranteed no-sell. Even their attempt at a side story where the only connection to the Macross IP was the vague suggestion that the Macross's computer was the enemy's goal was a total failure... and the audience cited a lack of connection to the series as the reason!

Robotech demonstrably doesn't work without the Macross connection.

RT is a multi-generation story afterall in its most well known form

Yeah, the problem is that it's only the first generation (Macross) that the majority of the audience cares about... the second generation is reviled by the audience to the extent that overseas airing have fallen into a pattern of skipping it entirely, and the third generation most folks are ambivalent about at best.

2. Reboot into an all new universe with all new IP designs for the 3 sagas.

Runs into the following problems:

1. It loses the Macross connection... the one thing keeping Robotech's audience interested.
2. No money... even Harmony Gold knows that Robotech isn't a sound investment, and won't invest any more money in it than the bare minimum necessary to get by. A ground-up reboot requires a LOT of capital, and the reputation the franchise has means nobody will loan them bus fare, let alone millions for new series development.
3. No talent... our boy Tommy Yune is a capable comic book artist when it comes to superheroes, but he isn't a mechanical designer by any stretch of the imagination and his very superhero-esque character art for the Shadow Chronicles did not go over well with the fans. He does not have the chops to do a reboot of Robotech.
4. No appeal... the franchise's dire reputation as the mistake that would not die created by the Antichrist of Anime, coupled with its legal baggage, means nobody competent in the anime industry would touch the property with a ten foot pole. Nobody in Hollywood seems to want anything to do with it either... the one director willing to talk about it is an industry virgin.
5. No network... in order to do a reboot, you have to actually have somewhere to debut it. No network wants to touch Robotech because the ratings suck, the reputation of the franchise is lousy, and it doesn't help that Harmony Gold has created a chicken-and-the-egg problem by refusing to develop new series material until they get an episode commitment, which they can't get without showing they've got considerable development already complete.
6. No studio... even Warner Bros can't bring themselves to try to polish that *ahem* mess, and on the occasions they've been able to engage the services of professional studios, they've only been able to obtain the fourth or fifth-string animators because their projects are underfunded niche market titles...
7. No audience... the Robotech franchise is keeping itself alive only on the interest that the small population of 85ers and other nostalgic folks who want to see a continuation of the original series, and usually only because they've been promised the continuing story of Rick Hunter.
8. No chance of success... the franchise will never escape its dire reputation as long as the "Robotech" name is there, and they don't know how the industry works or what appeals to modern viewers. Just look at RTSC... they thought that "wrist exercise" material was going to sell the OVA to teens. Unsurprisingly, almost nobody bought it.

3. Shift Robotech into a medium where they can fully exploit what original IP they have (ex. Novel).

They tried that... the McKinney novels are one of the most reviled bits of licensee-produced Robotech material. So much so that Harmony Gold had to step in and add an explicit rule to their forums saying that it isn't OK to bash the novels in threads about the novels.

Obviously they still need the resources to execture this, which likely is not going to come from HG without a Partner. And finding a partner seems to be difficult for them.

If the accounts from ADV and FUNimation are anything to go by, it's more like impossible. The best, and most succinct, summation I can offer is that they have ideas above their station. They want the same treatment afforded to hot properties like Evangelion, Gurren Lagann, Gundam, etc., and their depressingly low sales just don't justify it. If some of the numbers that've been given for DVD sales for Robotech are true, there have been cases where Macross titles have sold 100 times more copies in preorder than Robotech has, period.

Babylon 5 is the only one on that list that was really flying blind

I'm not sure if they are truely flying blind. B5 came out around the same time as ST:DS9, and both seemed to have some parallels to each other (Space Station, get a battleship-starship, involved in several wars, etc) that I noticed the few times I watched it (B5 really didn't appeal to me, felt like a DS9 rip-off).

Ironically, in production terms DS9 may actually be a B5 ripoff... B5 was originally pitched to Paramount, who passed on it, and then announced their own, curiously similar show concept just a few months after Warner Bros announced they were developing B5.

Babylon 5 was a project that had been in development for YEARS before it ever saw the light of day, but they were trying something nobody had ever done before and they had no idea if they could sell it... lucky for them that it turned out they were as good as they thought they were.

Compare that to Netter Digital and Robotech 3000... where they were also trying something nobody had done before, and it failed catastrophically because the idea was terrible and the execution was worse.

[keir451]

keir451 wrote:
I absolutely agree that he should have no reason to have such feeelings toward the Mardook unless they were developed during the battle. However the simple fact is that, despite the setting, racism can and, possibly still does, exist.
It's just not something that's present in the setting... unlike Robotech, which is a pessimistic setting where there is ONLY war, Macross is a setting where humanity actually learns from its mistakes, and has largely put the business of bigotry behind it by the 2010s. The prevailing attitude towards the rogue alien forces in the galaxy is one of pity, not disdain. A character like McDougall would never have reached a command rank if he actually voiced anti-alien sentiment... or any rank, for that matter, when more than half the UN Forces are Zentradi and Meltrandi troops.

Fundamentaly irrelavant to basic human nature. So long as there is a difference between peoples, wether real or perceived there will be those who are racist. As for McDougal making it ot officer rank, keep dreamin'. Anyone withn half a brain could learn to keep their mouths shut and spout the party line while intrernally believing in their own personal opinions. Racism descends, in part, form the human fear of "the other", wheh anyone that was not of "your" tribe was potentially dangerous and was treated as so. This "trait" has NOT gone away despite the millenia of change we've experienced as a people. In the Macross settings that would be even greater as the primary Terran population would be in the "minority" as comapred to the added Zentran/Meltran population (the "other") and that would just add fuel to any fires. Human history has shown us time and time again that so long as differences exist there will be people to latch onto it and use it to fuel hatred and discord, so while the MAJORITY of the population (and military) may be fairly accepting of these "aliens" there would STILL be a potential MINORITY that does not. It is just human nature. Even the Zentran and Meltran were "racist" in their way, they fought against "the other" (each other) and even in Frontier we see Zentran that choose to NOT integrate with human society and even one (and where there's one there's more) that actively HATED humans and wanted "his" people's supposed galactic superiority back. Macross II is no different, there is simply no way that they could have elimnated the concept of racism and "racial inequality" in that short a period of time. Even Silvie,who's 1/4 Meltran, doesn't exactly go out of her way to list her heritage. The political line may be that Zentran and Meltran are "just human", but so are the Jews, the Blacks, the Native Americans, the Japanese, etc. and yet DESPITE all of us being of the same HUMAN race we STILL are racist towards each other. And you expect me to believe that in Macross II there'd be no racism? Riiight, pull the other one.

[Seto Kaiba]

As for McDougal making it ot officer rank, keep dreamin'. Anyone withn half a brain could learn to keep their mouths shut and spout the party line while intrernally believing in their own personal opinions.

That's the thing... when all aliens are essentially human, there is no "other". It also helps that there are no nations, and a constant external threat exists to keep people working on the same side.

Also, the book is pretty clear that McDougall doesn't have half a brain and doesn't bother to keep his big yap shut when it comes to spouting bigotry. They actually compare him to the KKK!

[keir451]

As for McDougal making it to officer rank, keep dreamin'. Anyone with half a brain could learn to keep their mouths shut and spout the party line while intrernally believing in their own personal opinions.

That's the thing... when all aliens are essentially human, there is no "other". It also helps that there are no nations, and a constant external threat exists to keep people working on the same side.

Also, the book is pretty clear that McDougall doesn't have half a brain and doesn't bother to keep his big yap shut when it comes to spouting bigotry. They actually compare him to the KKK!

I agree that McDougal doesn't have half a brain (Brain would be insulted to share any level of genetics with this imbecile, Pinky, on the other hand would just go "Narf"! ), my point ws more that you COULD have racist people in the UN Military, at least to start. Wetehr or not they last is a different question.
Logically speaking you're correct, the Zentran and Meltran are as human as you or I and as such should be treated as human. Yet, as I said before, the Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Japanese, Native Americans, etc. are also human as well and we've treated them like absolute crap. Yet somehow the Zentran and Meltran miraculously escape any level of racism? They are literally Non-Terrestrial Entities, which makes them prime targets for racism of any and all sorts. The fact that they are genetically the same as the rest of the human race would be irrelevant to those who are racist, just as the fact that everyone else on the planet is genetically human as well, is irrelevant to those who are racist today. The fact that they are NTE's makes them "the other", the "gaijin", which humans fear so much, which is what would lead to racism.

[Seto Kaiba]

my point ws more that you COULD have racist people in the UN Military, at least to start. Wetehr or not they last is a different question.

My point is that it's intensely unlikely, considering the culture on Earth no longer possesses the notion of a separate nationality, and have been living in a society of total equality for eighty-plus years. Humanity did not have the luxury of room for internal strife in the years after the first space war, and with the Zentradi and Meltrandi living on Earth in vast numbers as contributing and vital members of society who largely are impossible to tell apart from a standard human, any bigotry directed towards them died out fairly quickly...

It's not a culture where racism can really grow... because ninety-nine times out of a hundred there's no way to tell if your annoying next door neighbor is an alien or just a jerk.

Yet somehow the Zentran and Meltran miraculously escape any level of racism? They are literally Non-Terrestrial Entities, [...]

Not at first, but after eighty years of familiarity and their total integration into human society...

Mind you, within a few decades of the war's end in both Macross universes, the vast majority of the human population are also non-terrestrial entities. The bulk of humanity's population is living out on emigrant ships in deep space, in space colonies, or on other planets. "He's not from Earth!" wouldn't hold water as a cause for bigotry in a setting where traveling to a star system 12 light years away is a commuter flight and a trip to the moon is no more exciting than a bus trip.

[keir451]

my point ws more that you COULD have racist people in the UN Military, at least to start. Wetehr or not they last is a different question.

My point is that it's intensely unlikely, considering the culture on Earth no longer possesses the notion of a separate nationality, and have been living in a society of total equality for eighty-plus years. Humanity did not have the luxury of room for internal strife in the years after the first space war, and with the Zentradi and Meltrandi living on Earth in vast numbers as contributing and vital members of society who largely are impossible to tell apart from a standard human, any bigotry directed towards them died out fairly quickly...

It's not a culture where racism can really grow... because ninety-nine times out of a hundred there's no way to tell if your annoying next door neighbor is an alien or just a jerk.

Yet somehow the Zentran and Meltran miraculously escape any level of racism? They are literally Non-Terrestrial Entities, [...]

Not at first, but after eighty years of familiarity and their total integration into human society...

Mind you, within a few decades of the war's end in both Macross universes, the vast majority of the human population are also non-terrestrial entities. The bulk of humanity's population is living out on emigrant ships in deep space, in space colonies, or on other planets. "He's not from Earth!" wouldn't hold water as a cause for bigotry in a setting where traveling to a star system 12 light years away is a commuter flight and a trip to the moon is no more exciting than a bus trip.

Oh, I agree that it would be unlikely that any one with racist sentiments would last long in the UN Spacy Military and with millions of Zentran and Meltran boosting the population any one with a racist attitude would soon be outnumbered. Yet initially, at least (and still presently, if you count the many that are still out there unmicronized), the Zentran and Meltran DO represent "the other" and would be subject to some level of racism because of that. I do doubt that the concept of racism would die out completely, as you suggest, as it is intrinsic to our nature to fear "the other", the "gaijin", the "sasenach" and that aspect will never truly go away, even if most of the populace now resides on emigrant ships or colony worlds. There would and eventually be that attitude of "Them vs Us" whether that will or not that attitude is displayed towards new Zentran/Meltran arrivals or some other race or even towards the other colonies or emigrant fleets remains to be seen.
Even with total integration there's still the possibility of racism/bigotry. Look at America's own history, even after the many European groups "intergrated" into American society there remains a level of bigotry because of the minor differences of whether or not some one is of Irish or Itlaian, or these days, Muslim or general Middle Eastern descent. The application of the attitudes may change, with time, to be more of "Oh, he's/she's from THAT colony/fleet/world/group." Why? Because that's what humans do, we make separations/ distinctions even when there's no need to.

[keir451]

And couldn't you have said that about several other sci-fi series when they were first starting out. Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, and to some extent, Bablyon 5.

There's an important difference there... they had original IP they could fully exploit, they had the money and the talent pool necessary to take full advantage of it, and they had substantial support from viewers.

The original Star Trek had trouble early on, but it was saved by a colossal and unprecedented write-in campaign that terrified the network into renewing it for a third season and the subsequent STUNNINGLY huge improvement in its ratings in reruns. Star Wars was something that Fox didn't believe in, but it had backing from people with the money to make it happen and creators willing to stake their fortunes on its success... and it exploded into a license to print money when it came out. Stargate's movie was capitalizing on an existing popular trend started by a book, so it wasn't flying blind, and the TV shows are capitalizing on the movie's moderate success. Babylon 5 is the only one on that list that was really flying blind, but its creators used the internet to great advantage to build interest and the show won an assortment of awards for dramatic presentation and visual effects because the production staff knew its cinematography.

Robotech, by way of contrast, has almost no original IP to work with. Almost everything in it, and indeed everything the fans actually care about, belongs to someone else... Studio Nue, Big West, or the one-time partner of same, Tatsunoko Productions. It had almost no money behind it, and no time to do the job right... the schedule being so tight that the staffers were sleeping in the halls and only eating at the pub across the street... and viewership-wise it was an unremarkable middle-of-the-pack series with terrible merchandising support trying to compete against two, already-established shows with very high quality toy lines behind them: Hasbro and Takara-Tomy's Transformers and Hasbro's G.I. Joe. Consequentially, it was largely ignored in most markets, and the attempts to capitalize on what painfully limited success it had were fatally undermined by the staff's lack of talent and failure to understand the industry and their audience. The crowning irony is that when they finally managed to get someone who actually knew what they were doing involved, they fired them right away for pointing out that the story was a tangled mess that made no sense... and then brought in a hack. So, having neither a clue about their audience or their industry, they tried and failed... again and again... and here we are.

Those iconic SF titles succeeded despite adversity because they had four things Robotech doesn't have... Money, Material, Talent, and Fans.

If they were able to find so much in them, why can't we do so in Robotech.

Because the only part of Robotech that matters a damn is the one part that they can't ever use if they don't want to be paying millions in damages after a copyright infringement lawsuit. Most fans hate the Masters Saga and are at best indifferent towards the New Generation.

And what about the Sentinals? For some strange reason, they don't want to try that again.

What's strange about it? They were toeing the line dangerously close a copyright infringement lawsuit in that project... and revisiting it would be even more dangerous now that they've soured relations with the Japanese owners of the Macross IP. They don't have the resources to revisit it even if they could get around the legal troubles, because no network will give them an episode commitment, and they seem to want one sight-unseen before doing any development work, if their marketing coordinator's comments are to be taken seriously... and the industry has NEVER worked that way.

If you want to pick up a copy of The Making of Star Trek from the late sixties, you can read all about the huge amount of development legwork you have to do to get an episode commitment in frankly excruciating detail, and in Gene Roddenberry's own words.

And if HG is the problem, what about another company buying Robotech and trying to do things without the HG baggage?

Who would want it? The franchise has an unbroken thirty year track record of abject failure... and the potential returns from scrapping it and making way for Macross licensing far outweigh the risks the new owner would have to undertake to develop new Robotech material. A new company in charge would not dismiss the legal problems... it would only intensify them, as the new owner would have to go familiarize itself with what it can and can't do, bogging itself down in legal approvals until the cows come home and risking lawsuits along the way.

Just look at what happened when FASA sold BattleTech and forgot to tell Catalyst Game Labs about their out-of-court settlement with Harmony Gold. Total fiasco.

Besides, can you imagine the amount of money Palladium could make on a Macross RPG if they gave up on Robotech and picked up a license to a mecha anime series that's usually considered second only to Yamato and Gundam in industry influence?

And imitation brand? There are quite a few transforming mecha shows out there. Sorry, but I don't get you at times.

Not to put a razor-fine point on it, but Robotech has been trying to ape Macross for as long as it's been attempting to keep its head above water. One of the reasons you'll never see reprints of the old comics is that so many of them engaged in actual copyright infringement in an effort to do this. RTSC's a pretty blatant exercise in trying to copy Macross as closely as possible as well... just look at all their efforts to Macross-ize MOSPEADA with Super Packs, a transforming Ark Angel concept, and the persistent reliance on Macross references. Everything they do is built around the appeal that their adaptation of the original Macross had... the appeal of the continuing story of those characters has been almost the sole factor driving the sequel development.

Harmony Gold has even famously tried to dismiss Macross to the Robotech fans, claiming that Robotech "improved" it and even lying through their teeth by claiming the Japanese creators thought their version was better. (Studio Nue's reaction to Robotech was along the lines of a horrified "Why would anyone DO that?!" when it was brought up in an interview.)

That's imitation-brand behavior there, friend.

On the one hand, you are very knowledgeable of Robotech, Macross, and the likes, so you seem to be a fan, but then, with these comments, I wander about that. Maybe you've explained in the past, and I don't remember, so maybe a little explaination, if possible? It would be helpful. And sorry if this is taking things off topic.

Put simply... I appreciate Robotech for what it was, a good gateway series for getting people into real anime back in the day. Even if its efforts went largely unnoticed, it was still trying to bring anime to the west's attention. I look at how it is now like an autopsy... it's dead, it has been since 1987, and the only real thing to do is examine the remains to see how it got where it is. Appreciate it as a piece of the industry's history, even if it's usually regarded as a shameful piece of that history, because history ought to be appreciated for what it is. That's how we learn from it.

The problem is that there's no sane way to kid yourself into thinking that Robotech has any kind of future potential. We're looking at an unbroken streak of almost thirty years of failure here. They proved pretty conclusively in that time that Robotech can't stand on its own... take away the OSM, and it loses everything that made anyone care about it in the first place. On top of that, they've proved, with the broadcast ratings and merchandise sales, that Macross is the only part of Robotech which brings in an audience. Even this recent Kickstarter, lauded as a great success because it raised so much money, has turned into a complete fiasco that left the fans feeling cheated and demanding refunds.

So, with that in mind, what value does keeping Robotech around have if all that really matters in it, both story-wise and in terms of the bottom line, is Macross? Why continue to hang on to a cheap imitation and let it roadblock genuine Macross when the Carl Macek's original goal was to promote Macross in the US? Harmony Gold doesn't have the talent pool or the money to fix this, and they don't have the reputation to attract someone who could. They're reduced to hoping someone else will rescue them, and guess what... that's all kinds of not happening. The best they've been able to do for SEVEN YEARS is trot out a chopped-up version of an almost 30 year old OVA with a few minutes of new animation, and even that was only released as part of a bundle with a pre-existing film in a transparent attempt to boost sales by getting fans to buy a second copy.

There won't be a comeback, and they're not going to do anything with the franchise... partly because they can't, but mostly because they don't know how. About all they've had to offer is excuses, and even HG's own staff is getting sick of it.

Unless you discount the failure of its merchandise line, Robotech has yet to have a single successful animated series. Macross has had fifteen successful animated series, and a sixteenth is on the way.




EDIT: As a note, I'm not trying to **** anyone off here... I'm just being frank. I make my living finding the problems with other people's processes and fixing them, and looking a this objectively I just don't see any value in keeping Robotech around. There are too many obstacles between it and success for there to be any chance of saving it... and it's now running counter to the very purpose it was conceived to serve.

OK,I realize we like arguing with each other over many subjects, but this is TWICE now that I've been mysteriously quoted as saying things I never said. Could you please double check your quote sources before applying my name to them?

[Seto Kaiba]

Yet initially, at least (and still presently, if you count the many that are still out there unmicronized), the Zentran and Meltran DO represent "the other" [...]

What part of "eighty years ago" isn't sinking in? Would it help if I pointed out that the micloning machines work on humans too... so there's absolutely no guarantee that the giant you're looking at is an alien either.

You're making this case based on the mistaken belief that the Macross setting hasn't basically forced people to throw away their bigotry in the name of survival AND furnished the world with impeachable proof that every reason they might've had for bigotry is idiotic. This is a post-apocalyptic setting where the ~1 million surviving humans didn't have a freaking option to hang onto their racism. If it's a choice between a person learning to put aside their bigotry or species extinction, most folks are going to put that aside with almost indecent haste. That's exactly the choice offered to humanity after the war. Get along, or get busy dying.

There's no case for racism in Macross. Science killed it, and eighty years of coexistence and mutual support pissed on its grave.

We've seen exactly one racist character in all of Macross after the first space war... ONE. And the other officers with him clearly felt that was unacceptable. EVEN QUAMZIN PUTS HIS DISTASTE FOR THE HUMANS ASIDE EVENTUALLY.

This shouldn't come as a surprise because Macross is a series where the one recurring theme is the "With a little understanding, we can all get along" moral that ultimately ends every war.

[Seto Kaiba]

OK,I realize we like arguing with each other over many subjects, but this is TWICE now that I've been mysteriously quoted as saying things I never said. Could you please double check your quote sources before applying my name to them?

Sorry... it seems like I spend so much time on this protracted game of misconception-and-fantasy whack-a-mole that the individual posts all start to blur together. I just use CTRL-V to insert the names to save time, but occasionally my aim sucks when the posts start getting long.

Went back and fixed it tho.

[Seto Kaiba]

2036 AD: the Neld Fleet Crisis

Zentradi Army 465th Main Fleet, 7th Aerial Armored Division commander Quamzin Kravshera was legendary among the Zentradi for his casual brutality, indiscipline, and general willingness to combine recklessness in battle with dangerous irresponsibility. The final feather in this terribly dangerous man's cap is his amazing track record of cheating death.

Despite having been reported dead in 2010 at the hands of escaping UN Spacy prisoner Major Roy Focker, Quamzin's life was saved by the sophisticated medical science of the Zentradi forces. Like many Zentran troopers, Quamzin was briefly quite enamored of Earth's culture, though he quickly tired of a life bereft of the adrenaline high of combat, and managed to seize a working warship and flee into deep space. With a particularly large axe to grind and the means to obtain reinforcements, Quamzin didn't stay gone forever.

Early in 2036, Quamzin Kravshera returned at the head of the Zentradi Army Neld main fleet, launching a sneak attack against the UN Forces intended to decapitate its command structure and rob it of its main logistical support. Using his knowledge of human culture, Quamzin had inoculated his new forces against culture shock tactics like the Minmay Attack. Using an ancient cross-fold system to drag Vrlitwhai's ship into his trap, Quamzin launched his offensive against Earth, leaving the raw recruits on Vrlitwhai's ship to defend themselves against one of the Zentradi's most renowned commanders. Against the odds, the UN Spacy trainees on Vrlitwhai's ship managed to repel Quamzin's assault and aid their ship in escaping back to Earth, where they were able to rally the UN Spacy against the Neld fleet and protect the other target of Quamzin's offensive... the factory satellite.

Once Quamzin's assault was blunted, the UN Spacy fleet massed for a counterattack against the forces Neld had given to Quamzin, and launching a spearhead to attack the Neld mobile fortress itself. Komilia Maria Jenius, the daughter of Maximilian Jenius and his wife Milia 639 led the spearhead into the heart of the Neld mobile fortress and personally destroyed Neld, causing the fortress's destruction. Quamzin and what forces hadn't surrendered retreated into deep space to lick their wounds and plan another offensive.

This war proved the effectiveness of the Refined Valkyrie and the new Daedalus II-class carriers in battle, and cemented the UN Forces' confidence in the tactics they had inherited from the 465th Main Fleet's former officers.

[keir451]

Yet initially, at least (and still presently, if you count the many that are still out there unmicronized), the Zentran and Meltran DO represent "the other" [...]

What part of "eighty years ago" isn't sinking in? Would it help if I pointed out that the micloning machines work on humans too... so there's absolutely no guarantee that the giant you're looking at is an alien either.

You're making this case based on the mistaken belief that the Macross setting hasn't basically forced people to throw away their bigotry in the name of survival AND furnished the world with impeachable proof that every reason they might've had for bigotry is idiotic. This is a post-apocalyptic setting where the ~1 million surviving humans didn't have a freaking option to hang onto their racism. If it's a choice between a person learning to put aside their bigotry or species extinction, most folks are going to put that aside with almost indecent haste. That's exactly the choice offered to humanity after the war. Get along, or get busy dying.

There's no case for racism in Macross. Science killed it, and eighty years of coexistence and mutual support pissed on its grave.

We've seen exactly one racist character in all of Macross after the first space war... ONE. And the other officers with him clearly felt that was unacceptable. EVEN QUAMZIN PUTS HIS DISTASTE FOR THE HUMANS ASIDE EVENTUALLY.

This shouldn't come as a surprise because Macross is a series where the one recurring theme is the "With a little understanding, we can all get along" moral that ultimately ends every war.

No, I'm basing it on the pure stupidity and stubborness of the human race along with thousand of years of recorded history. I realize that eighty yrs have gone by and all that jazz. I remain skeptical due to history's propensity of saying " Eff you and your desires for social harmony!". It's always fine to sit around the fire and sing Kumbaya, but reality oftentimes kicks us in the arse when we least expect it. Everytime we "come together" it only lasts until the crisis is over and then it's back to being idiots again. Like I said it is LOGICAL that the humans of Macross and Macross II would get over their idiocy and FINALLY work together for the common good but, again, historical evidence indicates that it's only a matter of time before they screw it up again. Despite your assertions that humanity would "get over it" in the face of extinction the fact is that there are, currently, humans who would rather DIE than admit that their way of thnking is wrong. This aspect of human nature would not change just because a few million aliens blasted the Earth into smoking rubble, in fact it would galvanize them to the opposite side of the spectrum. Example would be Lynn Kaifun; you'd think that the evidence of a hostile alien race would make him rethink his attitude towards the military, yet he stubbornly refuses to change throughout the intial series. THAT'S the level of human stupidity and stubborness that I'm refering to, the kind of blind ignorance and stupidity that won't go away until the person is dead.

[Seto Kaiba]

No, I'm basing it on the pure stupidity and stubborness of the human race along with thousand of years of recorded history. I realize that eighty yrs have gone by and all that jazz. I remain skeptical due to history's propensity of saying " Eff you and your desires for social harmony!".

When there's literally no way to survive as a species without learning to get along, attitudes can change VERY quickly.

Even Quamzin found a friend among the humans... UN Spacy defector Lyle Craze, who he gave command of a branch fleet to during the three-way war.

[keir451]

No, I'm basing it on the pure stupidity and stubborness of the human race along with thousand of years of recorded history. I realize that eighty yrs have gone by and all that jazz. I remain skeptical due to history's propensity of saying " Eff you and your desires for social harmony!".

When there's literally no way to survive as a species without learning to get along, attitudes can change VERY quickly.

Even Quamzin found a friend among the humans... UN Spacy defector Lyle Craze, who he gave command of a branch fleet to during the three-way war.

Perhaps, but ther's no actual proof that the hman race would have died out afterwards. 70,000 humans is more than enough to restart the human race w/out the Zentradi/Meltrandi. add in an extra ~million humans an you're good to go genetically speaking. They wouid have used the cloning chambers anyway to further boost their population. So the Zentran and Meltran just become an addded bonus. Again history proves your assertion incorrect, that attitude of cooperation would only last until the pressure of the crisis was over. Then, without some other impetus to keep us focussed on the "outside", we'd turn upon ourselves again. The emigration fleets allay that issue for a time but eventually it will collapse in upon itself. I understand that this is a story and thus doesn't truly follow reality but once you start trying to apply actual societal rules to a fictional series the idea of everyone living in "peace and harmony" dissolves under the pressures.

[Seto Kaiba]

Perhaps, but ther's no actual proof that the hman race would have died out afterwards. 70,000 humans is more than enough to restart the human race w/out the Zentradi/Meltrandi.

Maybe on an Earth that wasn't a barren and somewhat radioactive wasteland... but then that wouldn't be Macross, where they WERE dealing with an Earth with a wholly inhospitable surface.

Again history proves your assertion incorrect, that attitude of cooperation would only last until the pressure of the crisis was over.

History has never recorded an event even approaching the scale of the devastation inflicted by the first space war, so citing irrelevant historical precedent means jack squat.

[keir451]

Perhaps, but ther's no actual proof that the hman race would have died out afterwards. 70,000 humans is more than enough to restart the human race w/out the Zentradi/Meltrandi.

Maybe on an Earth that wasn't a barren and somewhat radioactive wasteland... but then that wouldn't be Macross, where they WERE dealing with an Earth with a wholly inhospitable surface.

Again history proves your assertion incorrect, that attitude of cooperation would only last until the pressure of the crisis was over.

History has never recorded an event even approaching the scale of the devastation inflicted by the first space war, so citing irrelevant historical precedent means jack squat.

History is never irrelevant.
Anyway, I tahnk you for clearing up the misunderstanding of the misquotes, playing the PB version of whack-a-mole can get confusing.

[Seto Kaiba]

History is never irrelevant.

There's simply no historical comparison for the level of mass extinction that occurred when Boddole Zer let his forces go to town on Earth's surface... it makes even the Permian-Triassic extinction event feel a little like the planet got off easy. We're talking a near-100% annihilation of the planet's biodiversity, which the planet would need tends or hundreds of millions of years to recover from on its own... and even with that advanced genetic science borrowed from the Zentradi and Meltrandi, it's going to take over ten thousand years to return the planet to something resembling its pre-war condition where it won't need a continuing ecosystem management program to avoid becoming uninhabitable.

Almost every species on the planet is something dragged back from extinction using seed and gene banks stored in the Grand Cannons and in space colonies. We're talking a planet that was a hair away from the ignominious end of becoming a sterile rock in space.

It wasn't just a matter of humanity needing to breed like bunnies to get their numbers up... they have to rebuild an entire planet's ecosystem from scratch to make it livable again, all while looking over their shoulders for the other 2,000 fleets that could show up and finish the job.

THAT is the kind of ridiculous adversity that makes people very conveniently forget they had grievances... bigotry is a luxury they could not afford.

[jaymz]

I think it quite possible lesser "bigotry" likely exists.

Bigotry like "those people are X. Don't hang out with them" where X is "ganger" "musician" so on and so forth. There is zero evidence of any existence of racial bigotry however and I believe that if it existed that the writers would have already made use of it.

[keir451]

I think it quite possible lesser "bigotry" likely exists.

Bigotry like "those people are X. Don't hang out with them" where X is "ganger" "musician" so on and so forth. There is zero evidence of any existence of racial bigotry however and I believe that if it existed that the writers would have already made use of it.

In the words of Bugs Bunny, "Mmmm, Could be."

[Alpha 11]

And couldn't you have said that about several other sci-fi series when they were first starting out. Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, and to some extent, Bablyon 5.

There's an important difference there... they had original IP they could fully exploit, they had the money and the talent pool necessary to take full advantage of it, and they had substantial support from viewers.

The original Star Trek had trouble early on, but it was saved by a colossal and unprecedented write-in campaign that terrified the network into renewing it for a third season and the subsequent STUNNINGLY huge improvement in its ratings in reruns. Star Wars was something that Fox didn't believe in, but it had backing from people with the money to make it happen and creators willing to stake their fortunes on its success... and it exploded into a license to print money when it came out. Stargate's movie was capitalizing on an existing popular trend started by a book, so it wasn't flying blind, and the TV shows are capitalizing on the movie's moderate success. Babylon 5 is the only one on that list that was really flying blind, but its creators used the internet to great advantage to build interest and the show won an assortment of awards for dramatic presentation and visual effects because the production staff knew its cinematography.

Robotech, by way of contrast, has almost no original IP to work with. Almost everything in it, and indeed everything the fans actually care about, belongs to someone else... Studio Nue, Big West, or the one-time partner of same, Tatsunoko Productions. It had almost no money behind it, and no time to do the job right... the schedule being so tight that the staffers were sleeping in the halls and only eating at the pub across the street... and viewership-wise it was an unremarkable middle-of-the-pack series with terrible merchandising support trying to compete against two, already-established shows with very high quality toy lines behind them: Hasbro and Takara-Tomy's Transformers and Hasbro's G.I. Joe. Consequentially, it was largely ignored in most markets, and the attempts to capitalize on what painfully limited success it had were fatally undermined by the staff's lack of talent and failure to understand the industry and their audience. The crowning irony is that when they finally managed to get someone who actually knew what they were doing involved, they fired them right away for pointing out that the story was a tangled mess that made no sense... and then brought in a hack. So, having neither a clue about their audience or their industry, they tried and failed... again and again... and here we are.

Those iconic SF titles succeeded despite adversity because they had four things Robotech doesn't have... Money, Material, Talent, and Fans.

If they were able to find so much in them, why can't we do so in Robotech.

Because the only part of Robotech that matters a damn is the one part that they can't ever use if they don't want to be paying millions in damages after a copyright infringement lawsuit. Most fans hate the Masters Saga and are at best indifferent towards the New Generation.

And what about the Sentinals? For some strange reason, they don't want to try that again.

What's strange about it? They were toeing the line dangerously close a copyright infringement lawsuit in that project... and revisiting it would be even more dangerous now that they've soured relations with the Japanese owners of the Macross IP. They don't have the resources to revisit it even if they could get around the legal troubles, because no network will give them an episode commitment, and they seem to want one sight-unseen before doing any development work, if their marketing coordinator's comments are to be taken seriously... and the industry has NEVER worked that way.

If you want to pick up a copy of The Making of Star Trek from the late sixties, you can read all about the huge amount of development legwork you have to do to get an episode commitment in frankly excruciating detail, and in Gene Roddenberry's own words.

And if HG is the problem, what about another company buying Robotech and trying to do things without the HG baggage?

Who would want it? The franchise has an unbroken thirty year track record of abject failure... and the potential returns from scrapping it and making way for Macross licensing far outweigh the risks the new owner would have to undertake to develop new Robotech material. A new company in charge would not dismiss the legal problems... it would only intensify them, as the new owner would have to go familiarize itself with what it can and can't do, bogging itself down in legal approvals until the cows come home and risking lawsuits along the way.

Just look at what happened when FASA sold BattleTech and forgot to tell Catalyst Game Labs about their out-of-court settlement with Harmony Gold. Total fiasco.

Besides, can you imagine the amount of money Palladium could make on a Macross RPG if they gave up on Robotech and picked up a license to a mecha anime series that's usually considered second only to Yamato and Gundam in industry influence?

And imitation brand? There are quite a few transforming mecha shows out there. Sorry, but I don't get you at times.

Not to put a razor-fine point on it, but Robotech has been trying to ape Macross for as long as it's been attempting to keep its head above water. One of the reasons you'll never see reprints of the old comics is that so many of them engaged in actual copyright infringement in an effort to do this. RTSC's a pretty blatant exercise in trying to copy Macross as closely as possible as well... just look at all their efforts to Macross-ize MOSPEADA with Super Packs, a transforming Ark Angel concept, and the persistent reliance on Macross references. Everything they do is built around the appeal that their adaptation of the original Macross had... the appeal of the continuing story of those characters has been almost the sole factor driving the sequel development.

Harmony Gold has even famously tried to dismiss Macross to the Robotech fans, claiming that Robotech "improved" it and even lying through their teeth by claiming the Japanese creators thought their version was better. (Studio Nue's reaction to Robotech was along the lines of a horrified "Why would anyone DO that?!" when it was brought up in an interview.)

That's imitation-brand behavior there, friend.

On the one hand, you are very knowledgeable of Robotech, Macross, and the likes, so you seem to be a fan, but then, with these comments, I wander about that. Maybe you've explained in the past, and I don't remember, so maybe a little explaination, if possible? It would be helpful. And sorry if this is taking things off topic.

Put simply... I appreciate Robotech for what it was, a good gateway series for getting people into real anime back in the day. Even if its efforts went largely unnoticed, it was still trying to bring anime to the west's attention. I look at how it is now like an autopsy... it's dead, it has been since 1987, and the only real thing to do is examine the remains to see how it got where it is. Appreciate it as a piece of the industry's history, even if it's usually regarded as a shameful piece of that history, because history ought to be appreciated for what it is. That's how we learn from it.

The problem is that there's no sane way to kid yourself into thinking that Robotech has any kind of future potential. We're looking at an unbroken streak of almost thirty years of failure here. They proved pretty conclusively in that time that Robotech can't stand on its own... take away the OSM, and it loses everything that made anyone care about it in the first place. On top of that, they've proved, with the broadcast ratings and merchandise sales, that Macross is the only part of Robotech which brings in an audience. Even this recent Kickstarter, lauded as a great success because it raised so much money, has turned into a complete fiasco that left the fans feeling cheated and demanding refunds.

So, with that in mind, what value does keeping Robotech around have if all that really matters in it, both story-wise and in terms of the bottom line, is Macross? Why continue to hang on to a cheap imitation and let it roadblock genuine Macross when the Carl Macek's original goal was to promote Macross in the US? Harmony Gold doesn't have the talent pool or the money to fix this, and they don't have the reputation to attract someone who could. They're reduced to hoping someone else will rescue them, and guess what... that's all kinds of not happening. The best they've been able to do for SEVEN YEARS is trot out a chopped-up version of an almost 30 year old OVA with a few minutes of new animation, and even that was only released as part of a bundle with a pre-existing film in a transparent attempt to boost sales by getting fans to buy a second copy.

There won't be a comeback, and they're not going to do anything with the franchise... partly because they can't, but mostly because they don't know how. About all they've had to offer is excuses, and even HG's own staff is getting sick of it.

Unless you discount the failure of its merchandise line, Robotech has yet to have a single successful animated series. Macross has had fifteen successful animated series, and a sixteenth is on the way.




EDIT: As a note, I'm not trying to **** anyone off here... I'm just being frank. I make my living finding the problems with other people's processes and fixing them, and looking a this objectively I just don't see any value in keeping Robotech around. There are too many obstacles between it and success for there to be any chance of saving it... and it's now running counter to the very purpose it was conceived to serve.

Thanks for answering my questions. You did a great job doing it. Though, I hope you don't mind if I still hope for a mirical. Even though it will most likely not happen. I hope things will clear up soon so that we can get some legal dubs of the Macross series over here before the sun goes nova though. Though for that to happen, HG, and to an extent, Robotech, would have to completely callapes. Just thinking that, makes me think, how much longer they can go on.

[Seto Kaiba]

Bigotry like "those people are X. Don't hang out with them" where X is "ganger" "musician" so on and so forth. There is zero evidence of any existence of racial bigotry however and I believe that if it existed that the writers would have already made use of it.

Pretty much... remember, the whole "We need to forgive" schtick was a big part of Global's speech during Max and Milia's wedding, and they've been rolling with that ever since.

That's one of the more upbeat things about Macross... despite the near-miss with extinction and a ruined Earth, humanity FINALLY learned to just get along and formed a truly free, truly open society that accepts EVERYONE equally. You look at shows like Macross Frontier or related works from the same period like Macross the Ride, where you have Humans, Zentradi, and Zolans living together without any discrimination. To them, it doesn't matter if you're human or alien, you're simply a person.

(From a production perspective, Macross is surprisingly enlightened for when it was made. Japanese society is getting a great deal better about it, but they're still kind of down on interracial relationships and the like. Macross has a LOT of mixed-race mixed-nationality relationships in it, even from the earlier points in its history. While it was definitely the first space war that cemented the idea of unity, they did seem to be making some pretty good progress towards it even before that.)

Though, I hope you don't mind if I still hope for a mirical. Even though it will most likely not happen.

Well, there's that not-so-old saying that, when it comes to hoping for a miracle... "Wish in one hand, and crap in the other... see which one fills up first."

I hope things will clear up soon so that we can get some legal dubs of the Macross series over here before the sun goes nova though. Though for that to happen, HG, and to an extent, Robotech, would have to completely callapes.

Pretty much, yeah... thanks to Harmony Gold having effectively nuked their bridges from orbit just to be sure, Big West will never permit them to have even peripheral involvement in Macross licensing. So it's basically down to two mutually exclusive options... either Robotech continues to hang on by its fingertips, or it goes under and we get Macross. There's no way to have both.

Just thinking that, makes me think, how much longer they can go on.

At this rate? They'll probably drag it out for another five to eight years before the sales finally slip so far that they can no longer justify the franchise's continued existence even with the bar set so low that it's become a trip hazard in Satan's wine cellar.

[ShadowLogan]

They retooled THE ENTIRE SHOW to focus more on transforming fighters in the hopes of copying Macross's success.

True, but I'm looking at something beyond concept stage as a rip-off not concepts themselves since concept/ideas tend to be copied and used all the time.

it's pretty freaking obvious what they were trying to copy... and the packs they put in are a dead ringer for the Macross ones.

More likely than not yes they where trying to copy Macross in some sense, but at the same time those elements are considered part of RT itself and not unique. As for being dead ringers, they look distinct enough to me.

Runs into the following problems:...

That those options for addressing the IP will run into issues isn't surprising. I'm sure with any new version/material there will be some that don't like it, but you get that with a lot of media that has various AUs and new spinoff-shows (even Star Trek went through that with TNG).

Finances and Talent are issues that I expected. HG's track record with partners doesn't help them either, so they have to start doing some bridge building.

the franchise will never escape its dire reputation as long as the "Robotech" name is there, and they don't know how the industry works or what appeals to modern viewers. Just look at RTSC... they thought that "wrist exercise" material was going to sell the OVA to teens. Unsurprisingly, almost nobody bought it.

Unforturntly "Robotech" is the name it has to work with, otherwise it really wouldn't be Robotech now would it. As for HG's role in the industry and appeal to viewers that much is obvious.

They tried that... the McKinney novels are one of the most reviled bits of licensee-produced Robotech material. So much so that Harmony Gold had to step in and add an explicit rule to their forums saying that it isn't OK to bash the novels in threads about the novels.

Honestly I don't get the whole McKinney novel bashing. Granted it was the Novels that got me back into RT in the 90s when I found them at the public library (#1-12, though all but #2/3/4/6 went missing). It's like people expect them to be 100% true to the 85ep, but there are other examples from other properties that show that this is unrealistic expectation. However, I'm suggesting they start from scratch in this respect, turning the McKinney novels into a self contained entity (which it is for all practical pruposes from the show).

[Seto Kaiba]

True, but I'm looking at something beyond concept stage as a rip-off not concepts themselves since concept/ideas tend to be copied and used all the time.

When the creators themselves admit that they retooled their entire show and added new mecha designs specifically to become a Macross ripoff for the sake of getting a piece of Takatoku's action... citing specific examples of copied material (Yellow x Aisha, for instance) just feels like being unable to see the forest for the trees.

More likely than not yes they where trying to copy Macross in some sense, but at the same time those elements are considered part of RT itself and not unique. As for being dead ringers, they look distinct enough to me.

It's not a "more like than not" situation, it's an "absolutely definitely we know they were trying to do this" situation. That their concept for a transformable Ark Angel transforms to look almost exactly like the titular ship from Macross is not a coincidence by any stretch of the imagination. Nor is the Super Shadow Fighter's suspiciously Macross-y FAST packs, reserved for the use of a unit that is specifically established to be the same one right out of the Macross series, commanded by a character established to be a Macross character's daughter. Come on, who do you think you're kidding here?

This isn't even the first time they've tried to build a "new" Robotech story by just ripping off Macross. "From the Stars" is almost entirely made from events off the original Macross chronology that weren't copied in the Robotech chronology, strung together into a single story to copy Macross Zero, which had been announced the year before.

That those options for addressing the IP will run into issues isn't surprising. I'm sure with any new version/material there will be some that don't like it, but you get that with a lot of media that has various AUs and new spinoff-shows (even Star Trek went through that with TNG).

While escapist light fantasy is often entertaining, it leaves a little to be desired in terms of realism... and the idea that Robotech has the resources or talent pool to consider developing an alternate version of itself is a truly spectacularly surreal flight of fantasy. The one thing keeping the franchise alive is the existing IP they're "borrowing", take that away and just have a property that's doomed to fail.

Finances and Talent are issues that I expected. HG's track record with partners doesn't help them either, so they have to start doing some bridge building.

Nobody is going to throw money at Robotech unless Harmony Gold can prove that they have something that will actually sell... and where developing new IP goes, they haven't had that in thirty years of trying. The franchise's reputation is poison in the industry, they CAN'T attract the talent that they'd need even if they had the money to pay for it. Of course, they'll never have the money to pay for it because bankers aren't in the business of investing in sure-fire losing propositions.

Unforturntly "Robotech" is the name it has to work with, otherwise it really wouldn't be Robotech now would it. As for HG's role in the industry and appeal to viewers that much is obvious.

Funny how the main thrust of my point is that they should ditch the whole Robotech and have done with it, ain't it? They're not going to be able to get away from the negative press they've been accumulating under the Robotech name since the early 1990s, and a modern audience is going to see that name and all the connotations it carries in-series as horribly corny.

Honestly I don't get the whole McKinney novel bashing.

Most people found the fact that they were basically Robotech as written by someone who'd apparently never seen the show and thought it was like Star Wars a little annoying... personally, I always suspected that Luceno and Daley C.S. Goto'd some rejected Star Wars manuscripts to make several of those novels.

[Alpha 11]

Wait, the Ark Angle can transform? That's news to me? When did that happen?

[jaymz]

It can't. They had at one point thought about having it transform and the have preprod art of it transformed in Art of Shadow Chronicles

[Seto Kaiba]

Wait, the Ark Angle can transform? That's news to me? When did that happen?

It was one of several pieces of RTSC concept art that were not used in the "movie", but were leaked by a Robotech.com moderator with close ties to Tommy Yune. The two that weren't previously published (even though the published art was tiny) were the Hover Cyclone and the transforming Ark Angel that transforms into something that looks very similar to the SDF-1.

[ShadowLogan]

When the creators themselves admit that they retooled their entire show and added new mecha designs specifically to become a Macross ripoff for the sake of getting a piece of Takatoku's action... citing specific examples of copied material (Yellow x Aisha, for instance) just feels like being unable to see the forest for the trees.

While I agree they "ripped-off" concepts from Macross, that is such a common sight in industry to "rip-off" concepts from one show/movie for another I don't see re-using concepts as "rip-off". Now if they had something that actually looked like it was 'ripped' straight from Macross with (at best) minor changes I would agree with you, but in the finished product of GCM, I really can't think of any actual examples that look like they where 'ripped' straight from Macross. "Astro-plan" (Chinese) looks more like they ripped straight from Macross (with a touch of Gundam) than GCM, SDC:SC, or TSC designs do and that was after watching the opening intro.

And while the AA's transformation could be seen as a ripp-off of Macross, the basic design is also connected with RT due to the adaption of SDF:M footage into RT. Now later Macross works is another matter.

Funny how the main thrust of my point is that they should ditch the whole Robotech and have done with it, ain't it? They're not going to be able to get away from the negative press they've been accumulating under the Robotech name since the early 1990s, and a modern audience is going to see that name and all the connotations it carries in-series as horribly corny.

The name really isn't the problem though, its HG's involvement that has done the damage. So either HG has to sell RT to another party (Under New Management) or HG has to clean up their act. Neither sounds like it will happen any time soon.

Most people found the fact that they were basically Robotech as written by someone who'd apparently never seen the show and thought it was like Star Wars a little annoying... personally, I always suspected that Luceno and Daley C.S. Goto'd some rejected Star Wars manuscripts to make several of those novels.

Honestly I don't find the Novels to be like Star Wars, yes there are some references to Star Wars, but that comes from the originating material itself (85ep, Sent, and maybe the graphic novel as its publishing date is 1986, novels are from 1987 IIRC). So if they feel like Star Wars, don't shoot the messenger (McKinney Team).

Daley DID write Star Wars Novels before RT, and Luceno after. I haven't read the Luceno ones, but the Daley ones I have read ages ago (I'm not sure if they are still at the public library anymore after they moved). So at least for Daley I can say I don't see a connection since I have read some of his examples of writing in "Star Wars". Luceno I can't really say.