Effective lifespans in RT/Macross.

[keir451]

What would the effective lifespans be for people in RT and Macross? Would they be better than, same as or worse than those in the CS or NGR?

[taalismn]

What would the effective lifespans be for people in RT and Macross? Would they be better than, same as or worse than those in the CS or NGR?

Hard call there...In absence of the constant threat of psionic attack, supernatural predators, and supercharged terrorists, I'd say the CA and NGR would have longer lifespans...the CS has LoneStar's genetics labs pumping out advanced treatments and medicines, there's nanotech medical systems, and biosystems/cybernetics to teplace failing organs. Places like Lazlo and Northern Gun would have d-bee and magical medical practitioners too; annual checkups go a lot faster and are a lot less invasive when the doctor can simply use psychic diagnosis on you.

IDEALLY, RT should have access to Tirolian genetic medicine(and barring violent death, Zentraedi and Tirolians may be quite long lived)...though their cybernetics are on the crude side, and the 15th members are taken aback when they stumble across the 'spare parts bin' aboard the Robotech Masters' mothership. So I figure the overall state of medical tech is not much more advanced than our own...
Of course, it only works if you don't totter off to visit your girlfriend rather than seek medical attention.....

[keir451]

Yeah it is tough one. According to the Lonestar book, under Longevity p.68, the CS now has an effective "life span of 100-130 years (100-140 in Lazlo, 120-150 years in the NGR, and 140-200 years in the Republic of Japan)."
So I'd figure that in RT and Macross (this includes the JN Macross series) that the life span would probably be at least similar to the CS possibly as good as the NGR and Japan. RT doen't mention much about cybernetics or anaotech (though I presume they may have some from the MAsters) and the N Macross seesm to have some level of nano tech and certain fleets (Galaxy fleet) have some type of cybernetics as well as access to the Zentran/Meltran cloning chambers.

[taalismn]

Certainly in canon Macross, Max and Miriya seem mature, but not really aged, and are still going strong despite having a large family and busy lifestyle.

In Robotech, however, Rick Hunter, despite certainly having access to top-notch health care, has NOT aged well(or, not as well as Lisa), and is likely headed for stress-induced problems. I doubt they have access to any sort of tissue regeneration technologies behind basic rehabilitative, or the Hunters may have had another go at a family instead of settling into what seems to be a resigned despair and greater devotion to service.

[keir451]

Good point. It may be that due to the constant state of warfare the med cial tech in RT hasn't had time to fulllygorw as it would under times of peace. They do seem to be able to repair broken bones fairly quckly, with out resorting to casts, as we see in the Shadow Chronicles movie with Vince. Though it doesn't seem to be completely healed as he still suffers from some pain and may even have reinjured it during the attack of the Haydonites.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't think it is clear cut what the lifespan is in Robotech (I'm not going to touch the Macross OSM, I'll leave that one to Seto), because a variety of factors can be at play here that depend on the faction/location/timeframe. Visually speaking older candidates are rare (Edwards, Zand, Lang who where middle aged adults in the GCW, add 40years or so...) with few in TRM and NG respectively.

Pre-ROD Earth probably had an average lifespan similar to modern day Earth in more developed regions. Post ROD and into the NG period I would have to say that it is on average closer to 50-60years of age than the nearly 80 of today (not that people don't/can't live longer), even with access to advanced medical technology given that they where still rebuilding as late as 2029 before everything was trashed again (Masters war and Invid Occupation). We also know that areas of the planet (cira 2029) are still sealed off for radiation (indicating the environment may reduce lifespan in some areas, even if they are safe to live).

Some faction/locations may have more advanved medical care, which can extend life spans, but those are transitory and not long term (given 2 subsequent alien invasions and the impact they had on Earth's infrastructure). The UEEF might be in better shape over the long term since they don't appear to have had their deep space infrastructure trashed until 2044 (and then only at SSL by all indications).

The Zentraedi its hard to say what their life spans are supposed to be. However the existance of the recloning chambers to alter their size, means that one could effectively acheive immortality by switching to new bodies. This would also apply to the Masters, but even here you are likely looking at life spans greater than the CS/NGR. It also depends on what version of RT one looks at here, because (at least) in the Novels PC treatments exist that can make one effectively immortal (Cabell).

Masters cloning technology is superior to the CS/RJ. The "spare parts" the 15th find clearly are (minimum) on par with Rifts level Bio-System Cybernetics given their life like texture. Post 2029 that technology could find its way into the UEEF for medical treatment.

The Sentinel races to it would be hard to estimate their average life spans.

[Seto Kaiba]

What would the effective lifespans be for people in RT and Macross? Would they be better than, same as or worse than those in the CS or NGR?

That's a good question...

It's really, really hard to put a figure on life expectancy for humans in the Robotech universe... mostly because humans have a habit of finding themselves in genocidal interstellar wars that've made the prospect of dying of natural causes somewhat uncommon. The current state of affairs has most humans having lived as a slave race with limited access to advanced medical technology, so their life spans likely aren't any better than the modern day. It doesn't appear that Robotech humans possess many of the medical advancements humanity got in Macross, so I doubt that their lifespans are any better than what modern humans have. Probably lower, considering that humans in 2044 belong to two basic groups... slave laborers and soldiers, neither of which is exactly fantastic for living a long life.

The Robotech Masters imply that they can use the flowers of life to achieve immortality... though how much of that is raging egomania and how much of that is fact remain to be seen. The Zentradi having unnaturally long lives may or may not be true, but since they're career soldiers their life expectancy is likely not something that comes up often. (There is one bit of dialogue in "Blind Game" that suggests a retirement age of sorts, meaning the Zentradi do experience senescence, and likely at a relatively normal rate for a near-human species.



Now, it's a bit of a different story in the original source material... well, at least in Macross.

The state of human medical technology isn't really touched on in the original Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross or Genesis Climber MOSPEADA stories. About all we really know is that in either one, certain high-tech medical treatments like cybernetics and cloning aren't in humanity's bag of tricks, though it's doubtful human life expectancy was much better than today.

On the other hand, the original Japanese Macross has a lot to say about the state of medicine and longevity in that setting. Unfortunately, one of the things that's explicitly said (by Dr. Chiba) is that the actual life expectancy of miclone Zentradi is unknown/uncertain, but believed to be similar to that of the average human. Humanity, on the other hand, benefited a LOT from the introduction of overtechnology, particularly in the medical field. Advanced medical technologies eliminated a lot of lethal illnesses, which probably drove the life expectancy up. Readily available cloning technology and cybernetics rendered a great many more life-limiting injuries and illnesses easy enough to treat. Eyeglasses were reduced to a mere affectation of style rather than a medical necessity.

We don't know the exact limits of human longevity, since there weren't many elderly among the citizens who survived space war 1, but the older veterans and civilians we see are all fit, healthy, and leading a very active lifestyle well into their 60s and 70s. Some of the better examples include none of than Max Jenius himself, who was still on active duty as a test pilot at 64. Jeffrey Wilder was certainly no spring chicken in 2059, but he was shown to be more than up to the task of incredibly reckless flying with the latest generation variable warships. The old man trio from Macross 7 proved they were up to the task of operating their Mk.II Monster in their 70s. Then you've got Zentradi commanders like Naresuan, Timoshie Daldhanton, and Chlore, who were able to gave aces as much as 1/3 their age a run for their money.

The gold star probably goes to General Kim Kabirov, former bridge operator on the SDF-1 Macross itself, who is still on active duty as the commander of Earth's orbital defenses at the age of 68.

With the existence of Zentradi cloning technology, it may be possible to achieve a somewhat limited form of immortality by transferring your brain into healthy clone bodies. Cybernetics may also be able to grant dramatically-extended longevity... though probably nothing approaching the longevity the Protoculture's biotechnological organisms like the Ehvil series bioweapons (which are still "living" at ~480,000 years) or the living computers at the heart of mobile fortresses... some of which have been alive for over 120,000 years. There IS at least one case of someone doing an end-run around the reaper by using implant tech to remove his mind from his body and exist temporarily as a data entity as well... and details from other, later titles indicate that he could possibly rejoin a physical body under the right circumstances.

It's not unreasonable to assume that humans in Macross could easily live to 100, and there's a fair amount of evidence suggesting they can remain as physically active as a 30 year old well into their 60s, and possibly longer.

Certainly in canon Macross, Max and Miriya seem mature, but not really aged, and are still going strong despite having a large family and busy lifestyle.

That's... well, part of that is an affectation by the animators. Sort of an in-joke on Max's name, as they say "growing old is a state of mind for normal men" and Max is, after all, a genius. He's still explicitly said to be pretty damn spry well into his 60s... being one of the test pilots on the YF-24 program, at 64 years old. He was outflying aces half his age into his 50s.

[keir451]

So we can say that the average lifespan is around 100 yrs or so wiht the comapratively few whore are wealthy enough or "special" (like Grace from Frontier) to to afford the truly advanced treatments that could give one effective immortality. Yet it seems that they've held onto the concept of actually growing old and letting the younger generation replace them, of course with multiple colony fleets you really don't have to worry much about those older folks keeping it all for them selves with multiple cloned bodies and memory transfers, youy can generally just up and leave for a new planet if things get to stratified around your local system.
So that puts them at "about the same" or perhaps slightly less with the relative few in the "better than" category.

The gold star probably goes to General Kim Kabirov, former bridge operator on the SDF-1 Macross itself, who is still on active duty as the commander of Earth's orbital defenses at the age of 68.

Kimmy!? Still alive!? We're talking about li'l miss ditzy bridge bunny Kimmy right? That's...wow, just wow! Are there pictures of her?

[Seto Kaiba]

So we can say that the average lifespan is around 100 yrs or so wiht the comapratively few whore are wealthy enough or "special" (like Grace from Frontier) to to afford the truly advanced treatments that could give one effective immortality.

More or less... with the increasing numbers of people remaining as healthy and active in their 60s as they were in their 30s, a life expectancy of 100 seems like a pretty safe bet. Considering Naresuan has to be at least 70 when he attacks Macross Frontier in 2058, and he doesn't look much older than 40, that might be a lower bound.

Yet it seems that they've held onto the concept of actually growing old and letting the younger generation replace them,[...]

Well, you can't save off death forever unless you intend to leave your humanity behind you... and there don't seem to be many people willing to go that far.

Kimmy!? Still alive!? We're talking about li'l miss ditzy bridge bunny Kimmy right? That's...wow, just wow! Are there pictures of her?

Oh, absolutely yes. The bridge bunnies and Global don't die at the end of Macross the way they do in Robotech. Didn't you know?

General Bruno J. Global retires four years after Kamjin's suicide attack (2016) and goes into government, appointing Vrlitwhai his successor. Kim Kabirov stays in the military and eventually becomes the overall commander of Earth's defense forces and captain of its flagship, holding the rank of Lt. General. Shammy Milliome retires, gets married, moves to a colony on the moon, and has ELEVEN children. Vanessa Laird and ends up married to one of the Zentradi spies, and runs an exclusive club in Macross City while her husband Roli is Mr. Mom of their three children.

[keir451]

The bridge bunnies and Global don't die at the end of Macross the way they do in Robotech. Didn't you know?

No, I didn't actually. The redone Macross series kinda left that out and I STILL can't get past the new voice actors for the dubbed version and the subbed version doesn't attract me (though I managed to get through that one to the end), plus I've found little variation between the RT version's story and the JN version's story. That's not to say that there aren't differences; the concept of 'Protoculture' is waaay different and some of the dialogue is different but the core concepts are the same.

It seems to me tho' that the CS medical tech is somewhat better, or more accurately their focus is/was different, as their average for the basic citizen is 100-130 with CS high command maxing out at 200. Of course there is always the possibility that the medical tech in Macross could equal it if they tried. I think that they (Macross citizens that is) choose to let themselves grow older due to cultural decisions. They prefer to follow a path that lets the younger generation step up to fill their shoes so as to minimize societal stresses in society where in the average person can live to 100 without real fear of anything truly dangerous happening to them.
When you comapre that to Rifts Earth where outside of the fortress cities the life span is extremely low and even inside the cities there is the chance of randomly being attacked or killed by some supernatural monster the issue of how long one will live doesn't have the same level of impact on their society as it would in Macross.

Also I run into the confusion of the disparity of what is depicted in the series versus what the tech should be doing. We see, for instance, that Alto's father suffered from something, possibly a heart attack or exhaustion or just stress (heart disease is one of those 'things' that was once commonly associted with 'old age, thus I don't use that term to desrcibe what happened to Alto's dad.). We see Ranka's 'brother' still wrapped in bandages after being treated for his injuries and simiar instances with Guld and Isamu in Macross Plus. Mostly I chalk it up to the writers trying to emphasize the drama of the situations.

[glitterboy2098]

in robotech, a lot of it is going top depend on whereyou are.

reconstruction period earth? (post macross, pre-masters), those in the major cities could probably expect 80-90 years, not too much different than today. on the outskirts of civilization in the smaller towns? probably closer to 60-70.

when the invid arrive, you can figure that people on earth would be looking at 50-60 at best due to the lack of quality food and reliable medical care in most areas. people in the UEEF in space though, not counting combat, could probably expect 80-90 or better.

[Seto Kaiba]

The bridge bunnies and Global don't die at the end of Macross the way they do in Robotech. Didn't you know?

No, I didn't actually.

Now you know... and knowing is half the battle. *Cue the GI-Joe cartoon theme*

The redone Macross series kinda left that out and I STILL can't get past the new voice actors for the dubbed version and the subbed version doesn't attract me (though I managed to get through that one to the end), [...]

It's actually not something that's really talked about in the series... the details actually come from one of the Macross audio drama CDs, Macross 7 Docking Festival - Singing Saves the Galaxy!?. The audio drama has a bit where they talk about where the crew of the original SDF-1 Macross are in 2045... though at that point Kim was a senior officer serving at a military base on Eden. It was the supplemental materials for Macross Frontier that mentioned that Kim Kabirov was the Lieutenant General in overall command of Earth's orbital defenses, and was captain of Macross-13 when the Vajra attacked Earth at Grace's behest.

We've also been told what became of the other two-thirds of the Zentradi spy trio, Minmay's cousin Linn Kaifun, her neighbor Yot-chan (RT: "Jason"), and a few other folks.

[...] plus I've found little variation between the RT version's story and the JN version's story. That's not to say that there aren't differences; the concept of 'Protoculture' is waaay different and some of the dialogue is different but the core concepts are the same.

You mean apart from everyone's motivations being different and the music not being rubbish?

It seems to me tho' that the CS medical tech is somewhat better, or more accurately their focus is/was different, as their average for the basic citizen is 100-130 with CS high command maxing out at 200.

Not being familiar with the RIFTS setting in much detail, I'd have to guess from your descriptions that the CS are using medical tech more on par with what's in Warhammer 40,000, where an Imperial world on the more cosmopolitan end of the spectrum can have the average person live to easily a hundred and the Imperial elite can go several times that while maintaining the physical appearance and fitness of any age they choose.

Of course there is always the possibility that the medical tech in Macross could equal it if they tried. I think that they (Macross citizens that is) choose to let themselves grow older due to cultural decisions.

I think part of it is a post-war cultural belief in the preservation of humanity in its natural form... which is likely a big part of why cybernetics were illegal until 2048 and their legalization was such a hotly disputed subject that there were riots over it.

Also I run into the confusion of the disparity of what is depicted in the series versus what the tech should be doing. We see, for instance, that Alto's father suffered from something, possibly a heart attack or exhaustion or just stress (heart disease is one of those 'things' that was once commonly associted with 'old age, thus I don't use that term to desrcibe what happened to Alto's dad.).

Somehow, I don't think bandages are ever going to entirely go away... especially when dealing with lacerations like Ozma was. The Macross Frontier movies do show a more advanced spin on bandage technology... a transparent film type bandage that seems to seems to disappear entirely when applied to invisibly seal wounds. As far as certain illnesses go, I wouldn't realistically expect science to progress to the point where everything has a magic five minute cure. (Plus Ranzo seems to have been milking it for guilt value just a little... in the hopes of getting Alto to come home.)

This isn't Star Trek, after all... where they have a laser pointer that instantly seals cuts.

[keir451]

The bridge bunnies and Global don't die at the end of Macross the way they do in Robotech. Didn't you know?

No, I didn't actually.

Now you know... and knowing is half the battle. *Cue the GI-Joe cartoon theme*

The redone Macross series kinda left that out and I STILL can't get past the new voice actors for the dubbed version and the subbed version doesn't attract me (though I managed to get through that one to the end), [...]

It's actually not something that's really talked about in the series... the details actually come from one of the Macross audio drama CDs, Macross 7 Docking Festival - Singing Saves the Galaxy!?. The audio drama has a bit where they talk about where the crew of the original SDF-1 Macross are in 2045... though at that point Kim was a senior officer serving at a military base on Eden. It was the supplemental materials for Macross Frontier that mentioned that Kim Kabirov was the Lieutenant General in overall command of Earth's orbital defenses, and was captain of Macross-13 when the Vajra attacked Earth at Grace's behest.
I'd reccommend borrowing a friends Rifts RPG (I'd suggest the old RMB) and just reading the back section on the tech (and of course advance the base figures for computers by approx. 100+ yrs from when Kevin wrote the stuff) I'd also reccommend reading the section in the Lonestar book on the CS GED (Genetic Engineeting Division) that runs from pg.64-69 (the pertinant sections are on those pages, the rest is just mutations tables).

We've also been told what became of the other two-thirds of the Zentradi spy trio, Minmay's cousin Linn Kaifun, her neighbor Yot-chan (RT: "Jason"), and a few other folks.

[...] plus I've found little variation between the RT version's story and the JN version's story. That's not to say that there aren't differences; the concept of 'Protoculture' is waaay different and some of the dialogue is different but the core concepts are the same.

You mean apart from everyone's motivations being different and the music not being rubbish?

It seems to me tho' that the CS medical tech is somewhat better, or more accurately their focus is/was different, as their average for the basic citizen is 100-130 with CS high command maxing out at 200.

Not being familiar with the RIFTS setting in much detail, I'd have to guess from your descriptions that the CS are using medical tech more on par with what's in Warhammer 40,000, where an Imperial world on the more cosmopolitan end of the spectrum can have the average person live to easily a hundred and the Imperial elite can go several times that while maintaining the physical appearance and fitness of any age they choose.

Of course there is always the possibility that the medical tech in Macross could equal it if they tried. I think that they (Macross citizens that is) choose to let themselves grow older due to cultural decisions.

I think part of it is a post-war cultural belief in the preservation of humanity in its natural form... which is likely a big part of why cybernetics were illegal until 2048 and their legalization was such a hotly disputed subject that there were riots over it.

Also I run into the confusion of the disparity of what is depicted in the series versus what the tech should be doing. We see, for instance, that Alto's father suffered from something, possibly a heart attack or exhaustion or just stress (heart disease is one of those 'things' that was once commonly associted with 'old age, thus I don't use that term to desrcibe what happened to Alto's dad.).

Somehow, I don't think bandages are ever going to entirely go away... especially when dealing with lacerations like Ozma was. The Macross Frontier movies do show a more advanced spin on bandage technology... a transparent film type bandage that seems to seems to disappear entirely when applied to invisibly seal wounds. As far as certain illnesses go, I wouldn't realistically expect science to progress to the point where everything has a magic five minute cure. (Plus Ranzo seems to have been milking it for guilt value just a little... in the hopes of getting Alto to come home.)

This isn't Star Trek, after all... where they have a laser pointer that instantly seals cuts.

Curse you and your unreasonable access to materials I've never even heard of!!!! If I had more knowledge of Japnese language I'd be hunting the stuff down myself!
You're kinda close with the 40K comparison, the CS have access to a pre-Rifts genetic and medical facility (the Lonestar complex) and it is described in the book that before the coming of the rifts humans had already decoded the human genome and were nearly done decoding many animal species as well. The CS finished that project by using the info left behind. They have eliminated (within their own populace) Parkinson's. AIDS, Alzheiemer's, MS, Muscular Distrophy, Diabetes, and various cancers, basically the CS's citizens typcially don't get sick and if they do then the cure is fond rather quickly (the book states that 80% of the cures for diseases were found in the Lonestar databases, which means that the other 20% are new discoveries). They've even eliminated obesity and eating disorders
I agree that the tech is nowhere near Startrek levels and won't be for some time to come, yet there nano-tech is pretty high level as is their molecular tech. An IRMSS or RMK (more nano-tech) kit can seal wounds in mere moments, but Wilks DOES create a laser scalpel so there IS a "laser pointer " that cuts and seals flesh. (heck we've got lasers in dentistry that we currently use)
I found the dialogue in the subbed macross to be very close to that of RT so I didn't really see any differences in motivations, but Yeah I found the RT theme music to waaayyy better than "macurossu".
I'm glad that the bridge crew survived, it's actually a theme I use in my RT games as well.

[Seto Kaiba]

Curse you and your unreasonable access to materials I've never even heard of!!!! If I had more knowledge of Japnese language I'd be hunting the stuff down myself!

Eh... a lot of this stuff can actually be had on the cheap if you know where to look. There are only really a small handful of art books and such that are too rare or prohibitively expensive to lay hands on easily or cheaply. That it's not available in English... well, that's a sticking point, but that's what fan-translators like me are for.

They have eliminated (within their own populace) Parkinson's. AIDS, Alzheiemer's, MS, Muscular Distrophy, Diabetes, and various cancers, basically the CS's citizens typcially don't get sick and if they do then the cure is fond rather quickly (the book states that 80% of the cures for diseases were found in the Lonestar databases, which means that the other 20% are new discoveries). They've even eliminated obesity and eating disorders

Sounds almost like they've reached the Five Star Stories level, where humanity has such advanced medical technology that they've eliminated almost every ailment that exists, and natural drugs don't even affect the species anymore.

I found the dialogue in the subbed macross to be very close to that of RT so I didn't really see any differences in motivations, but Yeah I found the RT theme music to waaayyy better than "macurossu".

I'd say the Zentradi's motivations are pretty significantly different... in the original, they're following the Macross because they're curious and more than a little scared of humans, thinking that humans may be surviving Protoculture or related to them in some way (especially after humans bust out thermonuclear reaction ordinance, which is a lost technology to the Zentradi). There was nothing special about that ship, except that humans had rebuilt it.

In Robotech they were chasing the Macross because they were told to capture it for the magic flower fuel dispensary it was carrying, because the ship was the one-of-a-kind mothership of the big legendary techno-wizard Zor.

I'm glad that the bridge crew survived, it's actually a theme I use in my RT games as well.

Yep... they go on to do many varied and interesting things. The special footage produced as an extra in the Macross Pachinko Fever games (incl. in the Blu-Ray release of the series) even shows the crew of the Macross attending the in-universe premiere of Do You Remember Love? in 2031.

Kaifun leaves Earth on Macross-11 and becomes the manager of the galaxy's most hated band, a totally unauthorized English Fire Bomber cover group. Yot-chan ("Jason") grows up to take over the Liin family restaurant "Nyan nyan" and turns it into an interstellar restaurant chain...

[keir451]

Ok. I've seen Five Star Stry around but never looked at it before, may have to *rectify* that. Ahem, sorry about that 'rectify' my vocalizer program decided to do a Tron on me.
Could you point me in the direction of some of these items? I may see about getting some of them in the future. Especially that Blu-ray release that shows the crew attending DYRL.
I always thought that Zentran were following the ship because it was from the Supervision Army and it was the last remnant of the actual Protoculture race? The RT reason, yeah that's a bit different but not too different, now when we throw in the Masters and Invid and the Flower of Life, THEN were getiing all 60's on ourselves.
Lynn Kyle still hated? Check. Figures he'd still be a loser. Did he ever grow out his stupid "I hate he military" BS?
What happpened to Minmei? Did she and Misa decide to do a threesome w/Hikaru? I know Hikaru and Misa left for the center of the Galaxy and haven't been heard from, but I don't know/recall baut Minmei. ( Now THAT would be a story for them to tell, oh, wait, they couldn't as that would require them to break from their ususal tradition of just rehashing old story plots, 'Cause , y'know, Frontier doesn't just scream original Amcross in some respects. )
So the Nyan Nyan restaurant that Ranka works at in Frontier is double joke? Figures.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok. I've seen Five Star Stry around but never looked at it before, may have to *rectify* that. Ahem, sorry about that 'rectify' my vocalizer program decided to do a Tron on me.

I love that series... absolutely love it. A fairly substantial chunk of the manga is translated and up on a host of manga reading sites, and it's not that hard to find the movie either. (It recently went back into serialization too, with a new volume... so I'm doubly excited.)

Could you point me in the direction of some of these items? I may see about getting some of them in the future. Especially that Blu-ray release that shows the crew attending DYRL.

The Wanted and Sellers sections on MacrossWorld are a good place to start, as is eBay if you're after an assortment of older books (basically anything not currently in publication). For stuff that's only just come out, like Macross Chronicle, or issues of Great Mechanics DX, HMV.co.jp/en/ (yes, it's THAT HMV) and HobbyLink Japan (hlj.com) are good places to start. The cost of the individual books ain't that bad, but the shipping... oh gods the shipping is brutal (international parcel post).

I always thought that Zentran were following the ship because it was from the Supervision Army and it was the last remnant of the actual Protoculture race?

Nah, remember, in the first few episodes Britai and Exsedol practically shat masonry when they saw that the Supervision Army gun destroyer had been rebuilt... and were stunned when they discovered the local system ships were shooting at them with lost technology. They went to full blown curiosity when they discovered humans were a miclone species, and remained politely baffled by everything humanity's doing because they're wondering if humanity's some kind of offshoot of the Protoculture, who are barely an ancient legend to them.

Lynn Kyle still hated? Check. Figures he'd still be a loser. Did he ever grow out his stupid "I hate he military" BS?

Now that, we don't know... all we know is our boy Kaifun left Earth aboard the heavily American-inspired colony ship Macross-11, where he now manages an unauthorized English Fire Bomber cover band, which claims to be the original and that Fire Bomber in Macross-7 is the imitation. (Some believe this to be an abnormally vitriolic stealth criticism of Robotech and Carl Macek...)

What happpened to Minmei? Did she and Misa decide to do a threesome w/Hikaru? I know Hikaru and Misa left for the center of the Galaxy and haven't been heard from, but I don't know/recall baut Minmei.

Minmay left Earth on Megaroad-01 too... but the last anyone heard from them was 2016, and the UN Gov't covered up the disappearance of the 1st Long-Distance Emigration Fleet. By that point, Hikaru and Misa'd had their first child, a daughter named Miku. There are a few pieces of art of Hikaru and Misa with Miku in some VERY old art books.

A tabloid journalist making up completely fraudulent stories in Macross 7 made a subplot for a whole episode out of claims that Basara was, among other things, Hikaru and Minmay's "secret son", and that Basara was variously the lover of Mylene Jenius or Mylene's de facto boyfriend Gamlin Kizaki.

So the Nyan Nyan restaurant that Ranka works at in Frontier is double joke? Figures.

's a chain restaurant... the original Nyan Nyan was the restaurant owned by Minmay's aunt and uncle, and Yot-chan expanded it into a chain restaurant after he started working there. Kind of draws a line under the idea of Ranka being somewhat cast in the role of Minmay.

[keir451]

shat masonry

Oh, that is a GOOD one! (yeah I know, **** bricks 'n' all but shat masonry!! )
Well they way little mis oink hair was acting you'd think she WAS Nekki's sex toy.
Ranka does make a better Minmei than Minmei did, tho' story wise Cheryl was better match for Alto than miss "puppy dog hair" (seriously her hair looks like dog ears! ) either way it STILL a better love story than Twilight!
Tho' Minmei had more of a figure than Ranka so she WAS a better POSTER /fap material girl. So how many more inside jokes did they throw in besides Ozma and Kathy portryaing Hikaru and Misa and Ranka trying to be the next Minmei while working in chain restuarant based off of Minmei's family restuarant? Or was the Rank/Alto/Cheryl triangle supposed to be reminiscent of the Minmei/Hikaru/Misa triangle/
Now I'm tempted to make a REAl American style MAcross colony fleet that makes the others look like chumps, it'll be "You thought Frontier was the largest well we're gonna go all Texas on yo' @$$ and make it the size of TEXAS. (Crap, shoot me! NOW I'm starting to think likea TEXAN!!!! OMG!) (Spent 10 yrs in Colorado so my opinion of Texas and Texans is rather low Damn fools CANNOT drive in snow to save their own lives!!!)
Just thing of how big a U.S. Wester state sized colony ship would be!!! Make it the size of Colorado insteead with the 'actual' Rocky Mountains even the Zentran would be like "Why the F*ck would you do THAT?! Answer: Because we could, beeyotch!!)
Yeah, Ok, time to rein in my insanity for a little bit, (but imagine the size of their Macross section!!!) Ok, I'm done now, whew just had to get that berserker out of my system.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well they way little mis oink hair was acting you'd think she WAS Nekki's sex toy.

Good thing Basara reportedly never returned to City-7 after the end of the series... 14 years as a space hobo (of sorts) seems like adequate penance for being one of Macross's most frustrating main men. Mylene launched a successful solo career, Ray became a producer, etc. The last anyone heard from him was 2060, when he sent his guitar tracks for the Fire Bomber "reunion" album in over the Galaxy Network.

Ranka does make a better Minmei than Minmei did, tho' story wise Cheryl was better match for Alto than miss "puppy dog hair" (seriously her hair looks like dog ears! ) either way it STILL a better love story than Twilight!

One of Ranka's non-vocal BGM tracks is actually titled "Dog Ears Ranka". The weird part is that the hair thing is not simply an attempt at cuteness... she actually has prehensile hair. (Apparently a rather rare Zentradi trait, the practical utility of which I cannot imagine.)

Or was the Rank/Alto/Cheryl triangle supposed to be reminiscent of the Minmei/Hikaru/Misa triangle/

Quite deliberate... the opening theme song "Triangler" is actually about precisely that.

Now I'm tempted to make a REAl American style MAcross colony fleet that makes the others look like chumps, it'll be "You thought Frontier was the largest well we're gonna go all Texas on yo' @$$ and make it the size of TEXAS.
Just thing of how big a U.S. Wester state sized colony ship would be!!! Make it the size of Colorado insteead with the 'actual' Rocky Mountains even the Zentran would be like "Why the F*ck would you do THAT?! Answer: Because we could, beeyotch!!)

Actually, in what you might consider a shocking show of restraint, the NMCV-11 New Macross-11 was no larger than an average New Macross-class ship, if you discount the smaller island modules in tow behind it. This is what she looked like circa August 2059.

'bout 7.7km long, not counting the misc. external modules or those massive solar sails it has.

[keir451]

Yeah I was just reviewing the stats of the Frontier and the Macross 7. If my calcualtions are right the Frontier is approx. 8 miles long by 4 miles wide, and the M7 in totality is only slightly larger than the Battle Frontier. So I further delved into the ships and saw that (according to the pictures on the Mecha Manual) the Frontier is practically packed wall to wall with it's people, which of course explains how they can have about 5 million people on the city island. But it seriously got me thinking about trying to make a U.S. State sized colony vessel, say about the size of Rhode Island and all the various details associated with it. Consider that R.I. is 37 mi. wide by 48 mi. long, now if I want to add in actual ocean territory as well we're talking a MASSIVE expenditure of or materials and resources. So while smaller than the Fulbtzs-Berrentzs class mother ship, it would STILL be HUGE by Macross standards and it's Battle section would be the biggest and possibly toughest of them all, or even possibly go with multiple Battle class vessels. How DO they do the weather on those ships? Could you create the full range of seasons and even have things like hurricanes and other inclement weather?

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah I was just reviewing the stats of the Frontier and the Macross 7. If my calcualtions are right the Frontier is approx. 8 miles long by 4 miles wide, and the M7 in totality is only slightly larger than the Battle Frontier.

Er... I think your math may have gone a bit wonky there. Island-1 without the Battle Frontier docked is approximately 15km (9.3mi) long, and about 10km (6.2mi) at its widest point. The individual islands that are in tow behind Island-1 are 8 kilometers (4.97mi) by 3 (1.87mi). City-7, counting the sub-bridge and Battle section docking connector, was about 6260m (3.89mi) long, reaching 7.77km only when its Battle section was attached.

So I further delved into the ships and saw that (according to the pictures on the Mecha Manual) the Frontier is practically packed wall to wall with it's people, which of course explains how they can have about 5 million people on the city island.

The fleet's total population is stated to be 10 million, but that's counting the escort detail, and the two dozen or so 8kmx3km environment "Island" ships docked to Island-1. Island-1 is the main city, but that surface you're seeing is literally just the surface. There are actually two more levels of city which are underneath that (the so-called "Deep" districts). The upper level is actually the level with the least population, though parts of it are done up to resemble San Francisco, Shibuya, Beijing, Los Angeles, the Akihabara shopping district in Japan, Taiwan, and Shanghai. (Though only the sections that bear vague resemblances to San Francisco, Shibuya, Los Angeles, and Akihabara appear in the series.)

The "Deep" districts are more reminiscent of the rebuilt city inside the Macross (DYRL ver.), the second and third tiers of city are built on the ceiling and floor of a large open space underneath that upper city level. Part of the city is in its own gravity field, "upside down" compared to the orientation of the other parts of the city, and the lowest level is "right side up" (these concepts being somewhat relative when gravity is your plaything) underneath the second level. Below THAT is ship systems and factories and so on. (Before you ask, yes this DOES appear in the animation.)

All told, if my back-of-the-napkin math is OK, Island-1 has about 950 square kilometers of space to play with, giving it about 1/2 the surface area of metropolitan Tokyo, but with 1/3 the population. Throw in ~24 Island modules, and you've got about 1,500km^2 to play with.

Consider that R.I. is 37 mi. wide by 48 mi. long, now if I want to add in actual ocean territory as well we're talking a MASSIVE expenditure of or materials and resources. So while smaller than the Fulbtzs-Berrentzs class mother ship, it would STILL be HUGE by Macross standards and it's Battle section would be the biggest and possibly toughest of them all, or even possibly go with multiple Battle class vessels.

If you're talking sheer linear size, the Macross Frontier was probably close on 100km (~62mi) long with all of its Island modules...

How DO they do the weather on those ships? Could you create the full range of seasons and even have things like hurricanes and other inclement weather?

The colony ships in Macross aren't big enough to have completely independent natural weather like you'd get on a planet... the smaller ones like the New Macross-class use holographics, temperature control, and sprinklers in the dome ceiling to emulate various weather conditions. The bigger ones have enough room under their domes (a ceiling of 2km) to have actual cloud formation, though they still cheat and use their environmental control systems to control the weather and artificially generate precipitation when they feel like it.

[keir451]

Er... I think your math may have gone a bit wonky there.

Yup, I realize my error now. I 'measured' the main island by using the picture on the Mecha Manual and an envelope for reference. The width is 3/4 that of the length (minus the battle section) so I took 8 and knocekd off 1/4 but my brain went funky on me and gave the wrong number (4 mi. instead of 6).

The "Deep" districts are more reminiscent of the rebuilt city inside the Macross (DYRL ver.), the second and third tiers of city are built on the ceiling and floor of a large open space underneath that upper city level. Part of the city is in its own gravity field, "upside down" compared to the orientation of the other parts of the city, and the lowest level is "right side up" (these concepts being somewhat relative when gravity is your plaything) underneath the second level. Below THAT is ship systems and factories and so on. (Before you ask, yes this DOES appear in the animation.)

Yeah I recall seeing them but I didn't recognize them for what they were. I knew the total population number was 10 million and that approx. 1/2 lived on the main Island alone.
It's till an intersting idea to me to take one of the U.S. states and create a colony class vessel of equivalent size. The logisitics of it would hideous, especially considering that with some of our states they could absorb the entire population of the Frontier with minimal difficulty. The issue of actually feeding them might require more of the secondary islands and those might be even larger than the ones used on Frontier so you could wind up with a very large population and that's (as you mentioned for Frontier) not even counting any escort vessels they would undoutably have.
On the military front such a vessel would attract a crapload of attention so it would have to be even better defended and armored than your typical Macross colony ship. So the material to buils the colony island and then an attendant fleet would consume a lot of system resources for Earth so it might have to be done outsdie of Sol system, possibly using a dead stars sytem and then coming back to Sol to 'pick up passengers'. Though a ship of that sixze would have nasty effects on the planet if it got too close so it'd have to stay further outsystem and have the colonists ferried to it. If I were to include a 'Deep' section as well I could possibly get up to 5 times the population of Frontier (or morte, not sure how to math that, yet).

[Seto Kaiba]

It's till an intersting idea to me to take one of the U.S. states and create a colony class vessel of equivalent size.

That's like building a modest factory satellite and sticking engines on it...

On the military front such a vessel would attract a crapload of attention so it would have to be even better defended and armored than your typical Macross colony ship.

That would be a tall order, considering that several fleets that we know about have had more than one Battle-class supercarrier, and the average 3rd Generation emigrant fleet had an escort detail with anywhere from 1-4 Battle-class supercarriers, and an escorting fleet of almost 200 ships... and that's a fleet with a population 1/10th of what Frontier had.

[keir451]

It's till an intersting idea to me to take one of the U.S. states and create a colony class vessel of equivalent size.

That's like building a modest factory satellite and sticking engines on it...

On the military front such a vessel would attract a crapload of attention so it would have to be even better defended and armored than your typical Macross colony ship.

That would be a tall order, considering that several fleets that we know about have had more than one Battle-class supercarrier, and the average 3rd Generation emigrant fleet had an escort detail with anywhere from 1-4 Battle-class supercarriers, and an escorting fleet of almost 200 ships... and that's a fleet with a population 1/10th of what Frontier had.

You ain't kiddin'! I think it would depend upon one's application of the relevant Macross technologies. We've already gone 'round on the ways some of the tech is depicted so I won't get into that. I'd deviate from the 'standrad' mode of construction maybe ditch the modular transformation sequence in favor of a non-transforming vessel, use gravitics to create denser armor, work on layering the primary shield so even if, say a Vajra punches throught one layer there are other layers beneath that one. Change the styling of the vessel to depart from the norm, go with a flatter and wider shape, more like a manta ray, that allows you more surface area for defenses and decreases your turning radius to bring primary weapons to bear, follow Zentran protocols and bury the bridge deep inside the ship, have about 4-5 layers of hull between the outer hull and ship interior (or just single massive thickness). Things like that.
Keep the colony fully enclosed so as to not risk the events of Alto's battle with the Vajra (no depressurization), if you want to keep a body of water you still could, and with the cloning tanks you could create endless supplies of beef, sea food, etc. You couldstill ahve section devoted to farming but they, too, would be under heavy armor and shileding as they're vital to the ship. Equip the ship with multiple extra power plants so there's always enough power to perform a fold as well as maintain the shields.
Of course one could also go the hyper efficient route; Put everyone into cold sleep tanks for the journey and maintain a minimal bridge crew for piloting the ship and checking systems, keep the ship in fold space as mcuh as possible and when you reach your target planet you deploy entire sections of the ship's sleeper holds to the planet and THEN you wake up your colonists and let them get to work. Boring, but effective.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] work on layering the primary shield so even if, say a Vajra punches throught one layer there are other layers beneath that one.

There's very little that can effectively block a heavy quantum reaction weapon like that... probably only barrier systems. Ideally a fault fold barrier, but humanity doesn't possess technology capable of making one (yet).

Change the styling of the vessel to depart from the norm, go with a flatter and wider shape, more like a manta ray, that allows you more surface area for defenses and decreases your turning radius to bring primary weapons to bear, [...]

Why not just go with the Varauta system defense fleet's idea of turning the main gun into a high-angle beam cannon... no need for a turret if you can just bend the beam.

follow Zentran protocols and bury the bridge deep inside the ship, have about 4-5 layers of hull between the outer hull and ship interior (or just single massive thickness). Things like that.

Probably useless, actually... because as powerful as many large anti-capital ship weapons are, armor is almost useless unless supplemented by energy conversion armor and a barrier system. If you have that, there's no point in burying the bridge because if the beam penetrates the barrier and the ship's energy conversion armor, internal bulkheads are NOT going to stop it.

Keep the colony fully enclosed so as to not risk the events of Alto's battle with the Vajra (no depressurization), if you want to keep a body of water you still could, and with the cloning tanks you could create endless supplies of beef, sea food, etc.

That's actually not all that efficient... space-wise and energy-wise, synthetic meats are a lot better for space efficiency, which renders real meat expensive by comparison. (Which is, of course, why Ranka's chewed out by the chef because she's dawdling and he doesn't want a dish he used real pork in to go cold.)

Equip the ship with multiple extra power plants so there's always enough power to perform a fold as well as maintain the shields.

That's sort of an infinite loop problem... the larger the ship, the more energy it takes to fold it, so as you make it larger to accommodate more reactors, you're making the energy requirement to fold the ship grow in a linear progression. Ultimately, folding takes such massive amounts of energy that you're not going to get the kind of energy to fold long distances instantly unless the ship is one huge generator or the ship is very small.

Of course one could also go the hyper efficient route; Put everyone into cold sleep tanks for the journey and maintain a minimal bridge crew for piloting the ship and checking systems, keep the ship in fold space as mcuh as possible and when you reach your target planet you deploy entire sections of the ship's sleeper holds to the planet and THEN you wake up your colonists and let them get to work. Boring, but effective.

Probably the worst option of all, considering that you lose time WRT the real world during a fold jump and you can't scan normal space (except the entrance and exit points of your fold) while folding, so you would still have a multi-decade expedition with no recreational opportunities for your crew and no replacements being produced locally. You'd also be burning fuel at a terrifying rate to fold constantly.

[keir451]

There's very little that can effectively block a heavy quantum reaction weapon like that

That they know of, as this is completely for fun I can say it's possible that something as dense as neutronium could deflect it. Or an armor system forged under the gravities of ten Jovian class gravities.

armor is almost useless unless supplemented by energy conversion armor and a barrier system.

That's is how the authoors created it certainly, but I'm not really bound by their concepts, now am I? Taht's teh joy of coming up wiht a 'new wheel" I can say screw the old system and try something totally differnt, and if it doesn't work, well we still have the "old wheel" until I figure out the "new one". Can't invent the flux capacitor unless you try, right?

no recreational opportunities for your crew and no replacements being produced locally. You'd also be burning fuel at a terrifying rate to fold constantly.

Part of the crew is also in stasis so they swap out every so often and there are general recreation facilties aboard. As for burning fuel, they way the power plants read to me is that they produce a near infinte level of energy (if they're truly fusion plants) that can easily be replenished by catching instellar hydrogen via ramscoop. But the concept is also that the ship makes one long jump to it's destination instead of multiple smaller jumps so there's no need for the crew to have water parks and the like, but a single holosuite might serve just as well. It's also possible that someone may come up with a new FTL system that doesn't rely on fold technology. You never can tell.

I know the macross setting is "set in stone" according to the authors but I'm in my own world so I can use it as my base while I springboard off into insanity!

[Seto Kaiba]

That they know of, as this is completely for fun I can say it's possible that something as dense as neutronium could deflect it. Or an armor system forged under the gravities of ten Jovian class gravities.

I dunno, man... neutronium is so heavy the ship's gravity control system would probably never be able to cope with the mass, and I doubt high-gravity forging processes would do any realistic good. Superalloys in Macross tend to be lighter and stronger, rather than denser.

That's is how the authoors created it certainly, but I'm not really bound by their concepts, now am I?

It's not really Macross anymore if you throw out the established parameters of the setting though.

As for burning fuel, they way the power plants read to me is that they produce a near infinte level of energy (if they're truly fusion plants) that can easily be replenished by catching instellar hydrogen via ramscoop.

Not infinite, just very large... and considering how energy-intensive many fold-based overtechnologies are... that's a necessity.

But the concept is also that the ship makes one long jump to it's destination instead of multiple smaller jumps so there's no need for the crew to have water parks and the like, but a single holosuite might serve just as well.

That's actually infinitely worse for energy consumption... energy requirements increase exponentially as the distance to be folded goes up.

[glitterboy2098]

this discussion seems to be ranging rather far from the subject of human lifespan.

[Seto Kaiba]

this discussion seems to be ranging rather far from the subject of human lifespan.

True... probably my fault. I OD'd poor kier on trivia again.

[keir451]

this discussion seems to be ranging rather far from the subject of human lifespan.

True... probably my fault. I OD'd poor kier on trivia again.

Eh, 's OK. Getting OD'd on trivia is fun every so often, besides there's only so far you can take the discussion on relative lifespans with out more info from the Macross end of things.

[Seto Kaiba]

Eh, 's OK. Getting OD'd on trivia is fun every so often, besides there's only so far you can take the discussion on relative lifespans with out more info from the Macross end of things.

Personally, I keep hoping we'll find out if Manfred Brando will ever manage to restore himself to flesh and blood from his sojourn as a data entity... that would make him effectively immortal. Maybe a good thing, considering he's a great character, maybe a bad thing, since he was also an antagonist.

EDIT: One has to wonder if the legalization of cybernetics in 2048 was the first step towards a little bit of transhumanism in Macross... especially with the apparent capability of the Galaxy executives to jump between bodies and become a distributed intelligence.