Now do we reconcile New York in Robotech?

[mech798]

Because even if we assume that it didn't expand beyond Manhatten, that was a HUGE city. Furthemore, it was evidently a city that still had enough of a working society in it that you could afford to not only have non-contributing mouth's like entertainers, but all the support staff needed for the lights and stuff. (I'm not going to go into the idiocy of having a music show during a firefight). So, assuming that the Regess isn't a closet Broadway lover, how do we figure out how a city managed to maintain the complex infrastructure needed to remain a functioning organization, complete with sidewalk cafes?

[jedi078]

Because even if we assume that it didn't expand beyond Manhatten, that was a HUGE city. Furthemore, it was evidently a city that still had enough of a working society in it that you could afford to not only have non-contributing mouth's like entertainers, but all the support staff needed for the lights and stuff. (I'm not going to go into the idiocy of having a music show during a firefight). So, assuming that the Regess isn't a closet Broadway lover, how do we figure out how a city managed to maintain the complex infrastructure needed to remain a functioning organization, complete with sidewalk cafes?

Simple, the city was controlled by humans who had allied themselves with the Invid.

[mech798]

Because even if we assume that it didn't expand beyond Manhatten, that was a HUGE city. Furthemore, it was evidently a city that still had enough of a working society in it that you could afford to not only have non-contributing mouth's like entertainers, but all the support staff needed for the lights and stuff. (I'm not going to go into the idiocy of having a music show during a firefight). So, assuming that the Regess isn't a closet Broadway lover, how do we figure out how a city managed to maintain the complex infrastructure needed to remain a functioning organization, complete with sidewalk cafes?

Simple, the city was controlled by humans who had allied themselves with the Invid.

The problem is that that doesn't work for a big city-- a city involves a huge network of trade surrounding it. (There's a reason why until the modern ages, truly BIG cities were very rare and most major city's were well under 100K in population size). So it's not just New York, but the entire region surrounding it-- likely new york state, more likely several states around. Now in the OSM, we know why, which is the fact that a lot of earth hadn't been destroyed by the Inbit so there werew still pretty big population centers around, but in Robotech, especially given the very low population starting from (and how the heck did the zentraedi miss what is likely one of the single largest sources of EM radiation on the East Coast), it's hard to see how that city could be keep operationg-- cities are *hard* to keep running. Not just the food, but keeping the water purification/sewage, local transport etc, that all has to run which means that NYC probably, at a very minimum, hd to have at least 250K plus living in it and that would be cutting things extremely fine.

[Alpha 11]

Because even if we assume that it didn't expand beyond Manhatten, that was a HUGE city. Furthemore, it was evidently a city that still had enough of a working society in it that you could afford to not only have non-contributing mouth's like entertainers, but all the support staff needed for the lights and stuff. (I'm not going to go into the idiocy of having a music show during a firefight). So, assuming that the Regess isn't a closet Broadway lover, how do we figure out how a city managed to maintain the complex infrastructure needed to remain a functioning organization, complete with sidewalk cafes?

Simple, the city was controlled by humans who had allied themselves with the Invid.

The problem is that that doesn't work for a big city-- a city involves a huge network of trade surrounding it. (There's a reason why until the modern ages, truly BIG cities were very rare and most major city's were well under 100K in population size). So it's not just New York, but the entire region surrounding it-- likely new york state, more likely several states around. Now in the OSM, we know why, which is the fact that a lot of earth hadn't been destroyed by the Inbit so there werew still pretty big population centers around, but in Robotech, especially given the very low population starting from (and how the heck did the zentraedi miss what is likely one of the single largest sources of EM radiation on the East Coast), it's hard to see how that city could be keep operationg-- cities are *hard* to keep running. Not just the food, but keeping the water purification/sewage, local transport etc, that all has to run which means that NYC probably, at a very minimum, hd to have at least 250K plus living in it and that would be cutting things extremely fine.

We've had similar discousions on earths population in the past. And your right, in order to have New York, we would need a descent population.

[Lt Gargoyle]

we could assume that alot of the things such as purifying the water and gardening themselves. it is crazy that New york is still running, but things did function before in history and its possible they are recycling some of those techniques.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Hoenastly, from the looks of the streets.. Ny, NY is pretty empty... maybe a few thousand or 10's of thousands...
and even if they have entertainers, that may not be their full time job.. he could be a farmer on the side.
it wouldn't be to hard to think a community could exist in the ruins of a huge city that could be nearly self sufficient... their are neighborhoods in detorit that while nearly abandoned, have small communities that grow food and are nearly self-sufficient...

[glitterboy2098]

it might be that central park was converted with a big farm. or that you have a lot of empty-lot farming/ranching..

plus if the city is that intact, the docks would be too.. as long as your not using PC or carrying obvious military arms, i bet the invid would leave it alone. i could see sailing ships making a big comeback. this would let a degree of intercontinental trade occur.. New York would easily become a major trading hub as international traders sail over with goods from elsewhere, and traders from the east coast show up regularly to meet them and pick up goods to sell elsewhere. the influx of local and international trade could let them get resources they couldn't grow or raise themselves.

plus i'd imagine there would be a big salvagers movement, and the resulting market in pre-invid non-perishable goods.. stuff like plates, silverware, furniture, decorations, toys, clothing, etc.. anything that could survive 10+ years in an intact enough state to be used again.

[jedi078]

Because even if we assume that it didn't expand beyond Manhatten, that was a HUGE city. Furthemore, it was evidently a city that still had enough of a working society in it that you could afford to not only have non-contributing mouth's like entertainers, but all the support staff needed for the lights and stuff. (I'm not going to go into the idiocy of having a music show during a firefight). So, assuming that the Regess isn't a closet Broadway lover, how do we figure out how a city managed to maintain the complex infrastructure needed to remain a functioning organization, complete with sidewalk cafes?

Simple, the city was controlled by humans who had allied themselves with the Invid.

The problem is that that doesn't work for a big city-- a city involves a huge network of trade surrounding it. (There's a reason why until the modern ages, truly BIG cities were very rare and most major city's were well under 100K in population size). So it's not just New York, but the entire region surrounding it-- likely new york state, more likely several states around. Now in the OSM, we know why, which is the fact that a lot of earth hadn't been destroyed by the Inbit so there werew still pretty big population centers around, but in Robotech, especially given the very low population starting from (and how the heck did the zentraedi miss what is likely one of the single largest sources of EM radiation on the East Coast), it's hard to see how that city could be keep operationg-- cities are *hard* to keep running. Not just the food, but keeping the water purification/sewage, local transport etc, that all has to run which means that NYC probably, at a very minimum, hd to have at least 250K plus living in it and that would be cutting things extremely fine.

Well IMO for earth to have had enough of a population to send out the UEEF a lot more of the population (as well as arable land) would have survived the Zent Rain of Death.

Furthermore with the number of troops that the UEEF came back with there had to have been a colonization program. Again you'd need a large population to even THINK about having a colonization program.

As others have pointed out, odds are NYC was a major trading hub between North America and Europe. The fact that a Invid Hive sits int he middle of the city is IMO why it would be run by humans who chose to ally with the Invid. Break the law? The sympathizers turn you over to the Invid and you end up in a work farm.

[rem1093]

Does anybody know, or have fingered out how Manhattan even survived ROD. Shouldn't the hole Island be swiss cheese? And don't give me, the hole, they filled in the impact craters before rebuilding the city because that makes no sense what so ever.

[ShadowLogan]

Does anybody know, or have fingered out how Manhattan even survived ROD. Shouldn't the hole Island be swiss cheese? And don't give me, the hole, they filled in the impact craters before rebuilding the city because that makes no sense what so ever.

The Zentraedi did not devastate 100% of the surface (Ep35, Narrator), they only are indicated at 95%. So 5% of the surface escaped devastation. That means Manhattan could have survived the ROD relatively intact. The population survives after that, is another matter, but the City could have been in the 5% area to escape devestation since the bombardment appears to be somewhat random.

(Personally I put it down to Dolza wanting the Statue of Liberty as a war suvenior, so NYC was "spared" direct attack to maximize the chance of getting the statue intact).

Because even if we assume that it didn't expand beyond Manhatten, that was a HUGE city. Furthemore, it was evidently a city that still had enough of a working society in it that you could afford to not only have non-contributing mouth's like entertainers, but all the support staff needed for the lights and stuff. (I'm not going to go into the idiocy of having a music show during a firefight). So, assuming that the Regess isn't a closet Broadway lover, how do we figure out how a city managed to maintain the complex infrastructure needed to remain a functioning organization, complete with sidewalk cafes?

Because the Invid where studying the humans of the city (Sera tells Corg), it is possible they assisted (in some form) them as part of the study. We know the Invid are capable of setting up deals, so may have some human intermediaries in the mix (Wolfe traded for PC, who knows what the city in NG#2's arrangement was along with Norristown).

plus if the city is that intact, the docks would be too.. as long as your not using PC

I'm not sure the Invid would object to use of Protoculture, reference Norristown and the Driver's "ration" of PC and the trouble he could get into if he shared any. So it is entirely possible PC use could be sanctioned and authorized given Norristown.

[Seto Kaiba]

So, assuming that the Regess isn't a closet Broadway lover, how do we figure out how a city managed to maintain the complex infrastructure needed to remain a functioning organization, complete with sidewalk cafes?

Simple... we go with the obvious explanation that jives perfectly with the visuals and dialogue of the series. It WASN'T a complex infrastructure in any working state. It was just a bunch of squatters living and making do in the ruins of what was once a thriving conurbation.

The problem is that that doesn't work for a big city-- a city involves a huge network of trade surrounding it. [...] probably, at a very minimum, hd to have at least 250K plus living in it and that would be cutting things extremely fine.

There's a BIG problem with this... the series explicitly tells us that New York City's population is only a few thousand people.

[taalismn]

it might be that central park was converted with a big farm. or that you have a lot of empty-lot farming/ranching..

plus if the city is that intact, the docks would be too.. as long as your not using PC or carrying obvious military arms, i bet the invid would leave it alone. i could see sailing ships making a big comeback. this would let a degree of intercontinental trade occur.. New York would easily become a major trading hub as international traders sail over with goods from elsewhere, and traders from the east coast show up regularly to meet them and pick up goods to sell elsewhere. the influx of local and international trade could let them get resources they couldn't grow or raise themselves.

plus i'd imagine there would be a big salvagers movement, and the resulting market in pre-invid non-perishable goods.. stuff like plates, silverware, furniture, decorations, toys, clothing, etc.. anything that could survive 10+ years in an intact enough state to be used again.

Lancer's buddy could well be a very accomplished carpenter, electrician, seamstress, and/or technician...all very useful skills for both a community and an amateur theater group...and he could be a lot stronger and more wiry than he looks...the effete airs aside, he could have some serious calluses on those hands....

[Colonel Wolfe]

Does anybody know, or have fingered out how Manhattan even survived ROD. Shouldn't the hole Island be swiss cheese? And don't give me, the hole, they filled in the impact craters before rebuilding the city because that makes no sense what so ever.

my explanation is. They missed. Natural 1 occurre a lot when a millions ships fire all at once.

[taalismn]

Does anybody know, or have fingered out how Manhattan even survived ROD. Shouldn't the hole Island be swiss cheese? And don't give me, the hole, they filled in the impact craters before rebuilding the city because that makes no sense what so ever.

my explanation is. They missed. Natural 1 occurre a lot when a millions ships fire all at once.

That ARMD happened to be in the wrong place at the right time.

[glitterboy2098]

IMO.. near miss. the ship in question hit on the outskirts of the mainland burb's, near the coast.. shockwave damage took out alot of that side and broke windows all over, but the main city survived more or less intact, aside from some fallout of short lived isotopes (all the dirt and stuff blown into the air, which was irradiated by the energy blast.) most of the inhabitants would eventually move to other communities due to the difficulties of supporting over 5 million people in such a small area, but enough stayed to make a rather large city in the post-war world.

[Chris0013]

Was not high on the target priority list....The majority of major population centers with military bases were hit in the first salvo....then the Grand Cannon took it's shot...then the SDF-1 and Breetai layed the smack down on Dolza's fleet.

[taalismn]

Was not high on the target priority list....The majority of major population centers with military bases were hit in the first salvo....then the Grand Cannon took it's shot...then the SDF-1 and Breetai layed the smack down on Dolza's fleet.

The Main Fleet then either had targeting intel passed on by the SDF-1 pursuit fleet earlier(when it was still working for the Masters' cause), or they have really FAST and EXCELLENT target discrimination sensors to pick out military facilities so soon after deFolding. Though I'd agree that after the Grand Cannon took its bite any Zentraedi systematic bombradment scheme went to pieces and they started shooting mad and blind at anything that looked like possible weapons installations on the surface(good bye Arecibo radio telescope, any large sports stadiums, desert solar collection arrays, etc....).

[glitterboy2098]

actually, it seems \possible to me that the fleet would have been prioritizing threats.. such as ground to orbit missile batteries (identifiable by the powerful targeting radars needed for them), or air bases launching ground to orbit strike units (aka VF's on booster's. identifiable by tracking the launches)

i will say though.. from the scene it seems more like the zents just aimed at random spots and relied on their sheer numbers to do the job. from the video clip they showed Rick and Lisa earlier in the show, it seems it would take multiple volleys to completely glass a planets surface. i suspect they were taking their time, not expecting Breetai's group to defect, or humanity to put up much of a fight.