GU-11 or GU-12?

[obsessed]

I hapenned to punch the 55mm stats into a balistics calculator and at 2000 m/s, the round does not drop below effective velocity until 2,500 m. Forward velocity of the aircraft adds to muzzle velocity, so that probbly explains that 2,000 m/s.

Pretty sure that 2,000m/s muzzle velocity doesn't include forward momentum of the craft.

Without the VF velocity would give about 1400 m/s muzzle. That's still 400 m/s more than other 57 and 55mm shells.

[Seto Kaiba]

Without the VF velocity would give about 1400 m/s muzzle. That's still 400 m/s more than other 57 and 55mm shells.

Eh... I don't know what all went into your assumptions, but the VF-1 Valkyrie typically fires its GU-11 from Battroid or GERWALK modes. Forward momentum is usually low to negligible in those circumstances (and that's not counting that, in the latter case, the VF-1 is usually decelerating rather than accelerating). That, combined with the absence of an "at speed X" qualifying statement, the long-established precedent to give the stationary muzzle velocities of gun pods (because these are giant mechanized infantry, not just fighter jets), and the wealth of other sources that confirm similar, extremely high* muzzle velocities for weapons firing ammunition intended to penetrate armor made from overtechnology materials, as well as the rather terrifying armor penetration figures, affirm the dickens out of that 2,000m/s being the gun's stationary muzzle velocity.

Macross is, after all, a setting where the introduction of alien technology massively upped the game of offense and defense. Your low-end assumption might be more fitting for Robotech, though, since Harmony Gold is aiming to have that be more in line with the level of weapons in MOSPEADA.


*By today's standards... the 2,000m/s figure cited by Master File for the GU-11's muzzle velocity would actually be on the low end for the anti-alien weapons of the First Space War. The lowest figure for muzzle velocity cited on an OTM weapon was 1,100m/s in stationary fire on a 35mm cannon, and that's a weapon described as "adequate" against armor much weaker than a VF-1's or battlepod's. For the period, the GU-11's 2,000m/s stationary would actually leave it on the low end, compared to the Defender's guns at 3,300m/s... and one of the lowest overall compared to later generations of gun pod, which average at least 4,000m/s and top out at a whopping 7,490m/s in stationary firing.

[The Artist Formerly]

In First E rules, the GU-11 for the Veritech fighter was the only way to go. The extra damage of the GU-12 is offset by the jamming chance, which for the VFs, would basically knock them out of the fight. Missiles and head lasers, even with the occasional face/sensor unit punch will only go so far. The Veritech is married to it's gun pod in any extended fight. Average damage is 21 points (6d6, 3 threes and three fours) vs the GU-12's 30 points. So there is more then a little temptation there, but ultimately not worth it. Coming up jammed in the second fight in a single patrol route is a tough position to be in.

However, the destroids with hands... The Gladiator/Spartan, or some of the mecha seen in Strike Force, well they already have other weapons which allows them more options, so the extra firepower that the GU-12 brings is worth the risk.

Well supplied airbases, sending VFs on heavy strike/assault mission or one where the ground troops are doing the heavy lifting, the VF pilot should consider it. And if you're a ground pounder looking for an extra few missiles, then hell yes.

[obsessed]

I suppose the GU-12 makes a great mace after it jams.

Really surprised the RPG hasn't considered air-dropped GU-11 gun pods, or other support vehicles to replenish. You're out of ammo, so fly (or walk) back to base and spend X melees being re-armed? Seriously?

Support / logistics folllows maneuver warfare. Otherwise you lose momentum and initiative.

[Kagashi]

I suppose the GU-12 makes a great mace after it jams.

Really surprised the RPG hasn't considered air-dropped GU-11 gun pods, or other support vehicles to replenish. You're out of ammo, so fly (or walk) back to base and spend X melees being re-armed? Seriously?

Support / logistics folllows maneuver warfare. Otherwise you lose momentum and initiative.

GU-11's were Earth first attempt in making Mega-Damage mecha sized hand held weapons of significant power. They are not perfect by any means; limited ammo supply and kinetic source of damage. ASC were more efficient, but that takes a few more years of development to achieve.

But yeah, I could see a logistics problem in an offensive conflict using first generation veritechs and something like what you proposed would be crucial. We just never really saw any of that in the anime because the majority of the fighting was close to home base, defending the SDF-1 from attack...which the RPG is based off of.

By the time the humans were no longer defending the SDF-1 on a regular basis, they were patrolling the area and encountering relatively small numbers of Zentraedi and battle pods numbering less than 10, which the existing GU-11s had more than enough ammo to deal with in one load.

Had we seen the GU-11 be employed in combat on a scale like that of the Global Civil War, I bet we would have seen a much different use of the GU-11.

[ShadowLogan]

I suppose the GU-12 makes a great mace after it jams.

Really surprised the RPG hasn't considered air-dropped GU-11 gun pods, or other support vehicles to replenish. You're out of ammo, so fly (or walk) back to base and spend X melees being re-armed? Seriously?

Support / logistics folllows maneuver warfare. Otherwise you lose momentum and initiative.

There really isn't any reason fresh GU-11s or other gunpods can not be brought though in the RPG, unless you treat the RPG as covering all the bases (and it clearly does not). You could have a VF-1 modified into a runner to carry 7-13 GU-11s (using FAST pack stations, Wing Hardpoints, and native gunpod) to and from a battle. Smaller gunpods of the UEDF: ASC and UEEF you might even argue for multiples per station on a VF-1 (native to their branches I think). UEDF: ASC mecha can recharge their gunpods, but the rate might still require them to have "spares" available for prolonged actions, so might have "runners" or "mobile charging station" (either based on existing mecha) to support them for prolonged battles.

The UEEF adoption of removable magazines in 2E means they can probably really load out a "runner" much more than any other 2E mecha for gunpods. 1E had the RDF/REF using magazine/clips for their gunpods, so runners could really load out for them. ASC had unlimited payload and no drawn out recharging period that is present in 2E.

[glitterboy2098]

new GU-11's would probably be more of a strategic thing.. you could carry a bunch on a cargo truck, so i could see a Forward Arming and Refueling Point having a few trucks of GU-11's to quickly rearm a VF's, in addition to say a few trolley's of preloaded missile racks (so instead of loading individual missiles, you could just remove the part connected ot the wings and load new ones in one go, would also make swapping loadout faster).

for destroids, reloading would be trickier for missiles, but the new GU-11's could easily be provided by cargo truck or airdrop during an advance.

[ShadowLogan]

new GU-11's would probably be more of a strategic thing.. you could carry a bunch on a cargo truck, so i could see a Forward Arming and Refueling Point having a few trucks of GU-11's to quickly rearm a VF's, in addition to say a few trolley's of preloaded missile racks (so instead of loading individual missiles, you could just remove the part connected ot the wings and load new ones in one go, would also make swapping loadout faster).

for destroids, reloading would be trickier for missiles, but the new GU-11's could easily be provided by cargo truck or airdrop during an advance.

For Destroids I can see the GU-11 on the Spartan being used more tactically. The VF-1 version of the gunpod likely has to balance out a variety of factors related to being used by an aircraft, as such I could see a heavier version of the GU-11 with an extended magazine that results in the VF-1 being unable to transport said weapon in Fighter mode (or on the arm station) for Destroids. I could even see a belt fed version that draws ammunition from an ammo bin mounted on the mecha (hip or back).

Later UEDF/UEEF nt-battloids (and even the VHTs) would also have to follow a similar pattern if they have to engage in protracted battles, which seems more likely for a ground pounder force than an air force (like the VFs).

[Jefffar]

I would also say that, like modern fighters, missiles were intended to be the primary armament of the VF-1. Even the base models can carry a significant load of them. Very few modern fighters carry enough gun ammo for more than a few seconds fire.

[glitterboy2098]

new GU-11's would probably be more of a strategic thing.. you could carry a bunch on a cargo truck, so i could see a Forward Arming and Refueling Point having a few trucks of GU-11's to quickly rearm a VF's, in addition to say a few trolley's of preloaded missile racks (so instead of loading individual missiles, you could just remove the part connected ot the wings and load new ones in one go, would also make swapping loadout faster).

for destroids, reloading would be trickier for missiles, but the new GU-11's could easily be provided by cargo truck or airdrop during an advance.

For Destroids I can see the GU-11 on the Spartan being used more tactically.
-snip-

what i mean is, replacing the Gu-11 with a fresh one in the middle of combat is not going to be a normal thing, for VF's or destroids.. too problematic. however, because a GU-11 is fairly self contained and easily swapped, i can see the UEDF setting up forward deployed rearming stations (the same as the FARP (Forward Arming and Refueling Point) set ups used in real life for tanks and copters, an example of which is presented here in a fashion non-military readers can understand) that have trucks with fully ammoed GU-11's so the Spartans or VF's only have to drop their spent ones and grab a fresh one in addition to the normal missiles and regualr rearming process.. if time is a factor, just grabbing a GU would be fast, and let the VF or destroid unit continue to advance to follow it's mission. if there is more time, the FARP can also reload internal weapons on destroid (would take a few minutes), even reload missiles (which would take longer for destroids)

perhaps strategic is the wrong word.. the idea that the UEDF would adopt the better practices of the militaries which preceeded it, and provide in theatre support locations to rearm/minor repair units between battles, so that they can then get to the next series of battles with out loosing overall effectiveness.

now, a FARP in real life is geared for aircraft.. but there are equivilent set ups for ground units like tanks, which is what the destroids most resemble operationally. ground unit ones tend to be more mobile, with the idea of following behind a given battalion/regiment, and when a unit within that force runs low on fuel, food, ammo, etc.. they call it in, set up a rendezvous, resupply, then move on. allowign the combat unit to maintain it's operational inertia as a whole.

[obsessed]

Focusing only on gunpods, resupply would need to be fast and close at hand. Veritechs can fly to base / carrier. Turnaround time for centre-line gun and wing missiles is fast (12 mins for F-15s).

Ground mechs in maneouver warfare needs logistics and reserve troops within 30 mins travel to maintain initiative. Support, including recon and logistics need to be as fast and capable of same terrain.

Keeping with FAST game play, air dropped is easier to add into a scenario. But
What about a purpose-built logistics destroid / light bi-pedal battoild ? Rack mounted gu-11s that other battloids just grab off. The battloid leaves the battlefield, leaving the combat force still effective.

Long trucks with GU-11 would be terrain dependant. That's why I still favour air-dropped (like a ammo respawn in a first person shooter).


Again, veritechs can hit and run, resupply and turnaround in the same battle theatre.

[obsessed]

I suppose the GU-12 makes a great mace after it jams.

Really surprised the RPG hasn't considered air-dropped GU-11 gun pods, or other support vehicles to replenish. You're out of ammo, so fly (or walk) back to base and spend X melees being re-armed? Seriously?

Support / logistics folllows maneuver warfare. Otherwise you lose momentum and initiative.

There really isn't any reason fresh GU-11s or other gunpods can not be brought though in the RPG, unless you treat the RPG as covering all the bases (and it clearly does not). You could have a VF-1 modified into a runner to carry 7-13 GU-11s (using FAST pack stations, Wing Hardpoints, and native gunpod) to and from a battle. Smaller gunpods of the UEDF: ASC and UEEF you might even argue for multiples per station on a VF-1 (native to their branches I think). UEDF: ASC mecha can recharge their gunpods, but the rate might still require them to have "spares" available for prolonged actions, so might have "runners" or "mobile charging station" (either based on existing mecha) to support them for prolonged battles.

The UEEF adoption of removable magazines in 2E means they can probably really load out a "runner" much more than any other 2E mecha for gunpods. 1E had the RDF/REF using magazine/clips for their gunpods, so runners could really load out for them. ASC had unlimited payload and no drawn out recharging period that is present in 2E.

I like the ammo runner idea, just not a vf carrying 7 to 13 gun pods. The weight of a single gu-11 prohibits other of the vf's pylons carrying another gu-11.

Also vfs can fly home, resupply wing missiles and gun pod FAST and be back in the fight.

But still, I agree with the concept you present.

[guardiandashi]

I suppose the GU-12 makes a great mace after it jams.

Really surprised the RPG hasn't considered air-dropped GU-11 gun pods, or other support vehicles to replenish. You're out of ammo, so fly (or walk) back to base and spend X melees being re-armed? Seriously?

Support / logistics folllows maneuver warfare. Otherwise you lose momentum and initiative.

There really isn't any reason fresh GU-11s or other gunpods can not be brought though in the RPG, unless you treat the RPG as covering all the bases (and it clearly does not). You could have a VF-1 modified into a runner to carry 7-13 GU-11s (using FAST pack stations, Wing Hardpoints, and native gunpod) to and from a battle. Smaller gunpods of the UEDF: ASC and UEEF you might even argue for multiples per station on a VF-1 (native to their branches I think). UEDF: ASC mecha can recharge their gunpods, but the rate might still require them to have "spares" available for prolonged actions, so might have "runners" or "mobile charging station" (either based on existing mecha) to support them for prolonged battles.

The UEEF adoption of removable magazines in 2E means they can probably really load out a "runner" much more than any other 2E mecha for gunpods. 1E had the RDF/REF using magazine/clips for their gunpods, so runners could really load out for them. ASC had unlimited payload and no drawn out recharging period that is present in 2E.

I like the ammo runner idea, just not a vf carrying 7 to 13 gun pods. The weight of a single gu-11 prohibits other of the vf's pylons carrying another gu-11.

not entirely accurate there was a listing of additional hardpoint weapons options in one of the old first edition books, where a vf-1 fighter could carry up to I think 5 gun pods ie its normal one, and up to 2 additional ones on the wing weapon mounts

[Kagashi]

Even in 2d Edition, a gun pod weighs only 350 pounds. Each of the VF-1's four hard points can carry 2,500 pounds of ordinance. Mounting single gunpods to a simple release mechanism wouldn't be all that hard and they could drop off extra gun pods to fighting forces 4 or 5 at a time. Its not all that cosmic of an idea. A bracket system mounting 3 gun pods per "MLOP" would work too, raising that "Resupply" VF-1 to 15 loaded gun pods easily.

Heck, pallets dropped from a VC-27 can deliver 263k pounds of material (or 751 fully loaded gun pods in one drop...might be more gun pods than the UEG had in existence after the rain of death...but it could still happen. Lets call it 700 to account for unused space in building the pallets.). A VC-33 could do 15,000 pounds (42 gun pods).

[ShadowLogan]

what i mean is, replacing the Gu-11 with a fresh one in the middle of combat is not going to be a normal thing, for VF's or destroids..

I can see this as a problem in the middle of combat, but variants of the GU-11 optimized for a Destroid do make sense since as they probably can make use of extended payload versions better than a VF-1 can IMHO. Providing only 25 shots (bursts are all it fires) that would seem light for a mecha acting as "infantry", who usually carry multiple pare magazine/clips each with similar or greater payload IINM.

Granted both mecha have additional options that can be counted toward that, but in terms of acting like Infantry, the mecha seem light in comparison to staying power. Even if we assume they act like an IFV, they may actually come up light in terms of endurance, but again they have additional options that could push it to being more "balanced" to the role.

like the ammo runner idea, just not a vf carrying 7 to 13 gun pods. The weight of a single gu-11 prohibits other of the vf's pylons carrying another gu-11.

The reason its listed as 7-13 is that some locations are questionable I think if they could support the weight or even work, I might have also double counted the forearm stations now that I think of it.

Weight/mass isn't an issue for most of those locations as a fully loaded GU-11 has a weight of 350lbs:
EACH Wing Hardpoint can carry 2,500lbs, there are 4. The main limit here is not weight/mass, but available volume is another matter and would limit you to 1 per station

EACH Missile in the FAST Pack Points is 33lbs:
--the main thruster pack holds 20 or 660lbs PLUS FUEL and weight of the system, so you can easily fit 2 gunpods here by weight and volume with a braket (I'm only assuming 1 per side), there are 2 here
--Each Forearm holds 3 Missiles for 99lbs, but lets not forget that there is additional hardware. This station is questionable I admit, there are 2. And it doesn't have to impact the native hardpoint station
--the Legs system has no listed weight or anything to gauge it in the RPG, questionable I admit, there are 2, but they are should allow for clearance from the wing stations

All Total: 1+4+2+2+2=11, 4 of which are questionable so 7. And that is with a crude runner setup for the GU-11s, if they take the time to engineer better containers for the wings and dorsal fast pack location you can double the capacity easily enough here. As a runner, there is no reason the VF-1 operator has to be able to fire all of those weapons.

Also vfs can fly home, resupply wing missiles and gun pod FAST and be back in the fight.

While VFs can, Spartan Destroids can not just fly home to resupply. Runners are ideally suited for the Destroid more than the VF, though even the VF can use the capacity if circumstances prevent them from retreating temporarily.

Heck, pallets dropped from a VC-27 can deliver 263k pounds of material (or 751 fully loaded gun pods in one drop...might be more gun pods than the UEG had in existence after the rain of death...but it could still happen. Lets call it 700 to account for unused space in building the pallets.). A VC-33 could do 15,000 pounds (42 gun pods).

The question does have to be considered if it there is actually room for that many gunpods on either aircraft. Which could seriously cut down on the number actually delivered from either aircraft.

[eliakon]

what i mean is, replacing the Gu-11 with a fresh one in the middle of combat is not going to be a normal thing, for VF's or destroids..

I can see this as a problem in the middle of combat, but variants of the GU-11 optimized for a Destroid do make sense since as they probably can make use of extended payload versions better than a VF-1 can IMHO. Providing only 25 shots (bursts are all it fires) that would seem light for a mecha acting as "infantry", who usually carry multiple pare magazine/clips each with similar or greater payload IINM.

Since its a 'burst' then how many bursts does an infantry person get for their clips?
I mean if you get 10 bursts from a magazine, then your GU-11 is the equivalent of 2.5 magazines each....not to shabby actually.

[Kagashi]

Heck, pallets dropped from a VC-27 can deliver 263k pounds of material (or 751 fully loaded gun pods in one drop...might be more gun pods than the UEG had in existence after the rain of death...but it could still happen. Lets call it 700 to account for unused space in building the pallets.). A VC-33 could do 15,000 pounds (42 gun pods).

The question does have to be considered if it there is actually room for that many gunpods on either aircraft. Which could seriously cut down on the number actually delivered from either aircraft.

Thats why I ball parked it to 700. I'm not a loadmaster, but I can do basic math. Beyond calculating the weight of multi-GU11s and comparing it canon cargo weights, I have to start guessing.

[ShadowLogan]

Since its a 'burst' then how many bursts does an infantry person get for their clips?
I mean if you get 10 bursts from a magazine, then your GU-11 is the equivalent of 2.5 magazines each....not to shabby actually.

That would depend on the infantry weapon (and a given magazine/clip) and the burst size (not all bursts are of the same volume), plus the infantry version can select to fire in single shot or burst. It also depends on just how many magazine/clips the infantry man is carrying, etc.

Thats why I ball parked it to 700. I'm not a loadmaster, but I can do basic math. Beyond calculating the weight of multi-GU11s and comparing it canon cargo weights, I have to start guessing.

Except we can work out/estimate the size of a GU-11 and the two cargo planes. Some one might have more precise figures than this, as I admit this is more eyeballing it rather than taking out a ruler and doing the measuring.

We know that the GU-11 is roughly the length of the escape capsule (which is ~1/2 the VF-1 height) and its nearly as wide (though not as tall) as an escape capsule (~1/5 B. mode width). VF-1 is 41.6ft/12.7m tall and 24ft/7.3m wide in Battloid mode, assuming the above that gives it a length of 6.35m and 1.46m wide (radius of 0.73m). For a volume of 10.6m^3 IINM for a simple cylinder.

VC-33, the cabin is ~1/7 the wingspan of the plane, and it looks like only ~1/3 of the plane's length is usable (cockpit/cabin, tail section) for cargo with only 2/3 the height (vertical tail is the other 1/3). Dimensions in the 2E RPG are 17.7ft/5.47m high by 63ft/19.2m long and 64ft/19.5m wingspan. Assuming a simple cube volume would be 2/3 of 5.4m x 1/3 of 19.2 x 1/7 of 19.5m for a volume of ~64.2m^3 or 6 GU-11s. Far short of the 40 you estimated based purely on the weight.

VC-27 is 65ft/19.8m tall, 213ft/65m long, and 222.75ft/67.89m wingspan. 2/3 (5/6ths at best) of the planes length appears to be usable (front cabin and angle rear suggest they aren't loaded), 1/3 of the height is usable (remember the vertical tail AND the upper level passenger deck), the fuselage appears to be ~1/8 the wingspan. Assuming a simple cube for volume, that yields a volume of ~2427m^3 (best case would be 3033.8m^3) for ~228 GU-11s (~286 best case), which again is far short of the 700 you estimate based on weight.

These numbers actually go down when you have to consider the aircraft's hull thickness (which I was not considering), and the pallet thickness.

[Kagashi]

Cool. Glad somebody did the work, I wasnt about to. Thanks.

[glitterboy2098]

air dropping GU's via pallets is certainly an option for destroids, though the dangers of the weapons finding their way into enemy hands suggests to me that it would be a less than ideal situation. however vectoring a pair of VC-33's to rendezvous with a company of Gladiators and unload extra Gu's (then load the empty's onto the planes for return to base) is certainly an option between combats. it would also give the destroid pilots a chance to send messages back without doing over the radio, and a chance to grab a quick drink/MRE before heading back out to the next battle.

however the planes flying over an active battle and dropping crates of GU's to destroids in the middle of a pitch battle is not likely.

[obsessed]

If a single GU-11 gun pod was 350 lb and capable of being carried on EVERY wing pylon, we would see it in anime.

We do not, so the single centre carried Gu-11 must be "weighty".

How many can be stacked onto a pallet inside a VC-27 Tunny depends on weight per pallet, not just internal space or overall weight. Less gun pods per pallet also mitigate the "falling into enemy hands) scenario. The GU-11 guns can not just me crammed inside like matchsticks.

Based on line art of VF-1 fighter mode with centre mounted GU-11 is 59cm diameter and 6.27m long )folded). Weight I am still working on, but its sure not 350lb.
Added edit: Gau-8 gun only (no ammo drum), 281 kilograms = 619.5 pounds).
- single barrel 30mm bushmaster 154.6 kg = 341lb
Therefore 350 lb HARDLY even covers weight of 200 55mm rounds, let alone the gun barrels and mechanism weight.

They COULD be wing mounted on larger aircraft (B-52, C-130 and VC-27 sizes).

[eliakon]

If a single GU-11 gun pod was 350 lb and capable of being carried on EVERY wing pylon, we would see it in anime.

That's not a logically supportable statement. The anime simply shows a portion of the various wars, not every possible trick, maneuver and technique performed by every possible unit.

We do not, so the single centre carried Gu-11 must be "weighty".

See above

How many can be stacked onto a pallet inside a VC-27 Tunny depends on weight per pallet, not just internal space or overall weight. Less gun pods per pallet also mitigate the "falling into enemy hands) scenario. The GU-11 guns can not just me crammed inside like matchsticks.

Half right. Each pallet will have to be carefully loaded by a qualified load master. Issus will include
making sure its stable.
making sure the cargo is not damaged
weight distribution
ease of access of the cargo at the destination (if its being dropped to mecha, then mecha will have to be able to unpack it for instance)

Based on line art of VF-1 fighter mode with centre mounted GU-11 is 59cm diameter and 6.27m long )folded). Weight I am still working on, but its sure not 350lb.
Added edit: Gau-8 gun only (no ammo drum), 281 kilograms = 619.5 pounds).
- single barrel 30mm bushmaster 154.6 kg = 341lb
Therefore 350 lb HARDLY even covers weight of 200 55mm rounds, let alone the gun barrels and mechanism weight.

They COULD be wing mounted on larger aircraft (B-52, C-130 and VC-27 sizes).

In the absence of hard numbers from an official source I think it will be hard to get any sort of agreement on a weight.
Especially when one looks at the game book weight of the missiles that are being put on the wing pods for instance.

[glitterboy2098]

i think 350lbs is rather absurdly light

the GAU-8, which is a lighter calibre gun than the GU-11, weighs 619lbs. 200rds of APFSDS ammo for it weigh 501 lbs.
so a GAU-8 gunpod would weigh about2/3rds of a ton.

the GU-11 is a larger calibre (albeit with smaller # of barrels, so overall size probably hasn't changed) and it's ammo is probably similar size to the GU-11's short 55mm rounds.
so the GU-11 is 4 times lighter than i'd expect..

even if we use the GAU-13 derivitives of the GAU-8 (a 4 barrel lighter version designed to gunpod mounting on an F-16.. gun worked great, the "A-16" didn't) that's 330lbs for the gun and still 501lbs for the ammo.. so still about half a ton with mounting, casing, etc. and that's being generous, since the GPU-5/A gunpod IRL, with GAU-13, 353 rounds, and casing was a 1900lbs
http://imagery.vnfawing.com/archive/Wea ... 504741.jpg
http://www.dstorm.eu/pictures/nose-arts ... 0404_1.jpg


honestly, if i was doing eratta, i'd say "350lbs is the weight of the gun system itself, without ammo or housing"

[Jefffar]

It definitely doesn't seem to be a loaded weight, for sure.

A tri-barrelled 55mm probably generates quite a bit of recoil as well. It could be that the issue is that the pylons weren't designed with that stress in mind even if they can handle the weight.

[glitterboy2098]

the problem with the "A-16" idea was recoil and pylon.. the centerline pylon was not reinforced enough to handle the recoil of the GAU-13, so it's accuracy when to crud after a single round left the barrel.

which pretty much killed the effort to use F-16's instead of A-10's.. since redesigning the F-16 to have reinforced wings for more stores, the various ground attack avionics of the time, and a reinforced centerline pylon for the GPU-5/A.. would have cost as more than just keeping the A-10's flying. (then congress passed laws requiring the airforce to maintain minimum 2 wings of A-10's and the project was dropped.. the GPU-5/A gunpods saw 2 days of field testing just prior to Desert Storm by a new york ANG unit of F-16's, which proved the gunpod was pretty much useless for anti-tank/CAS. once the fighting started the gunpods spent the whole time in the hanger, never saw combat use.)

however, since the VF-1 seems to have been designed from the start to use the GU-11 gunpod, i have no doubt the fighter was equipped with pylons able to handle it.

[obsessed]

i think 350lbs is rather absurdly light

the GAU-8, which is a lighter calibre gun than the GU-11, weighs 619lbs. 200rds of APFSDS ammo for it weigh 501 lbs.
so a GAU-8 gunpod would weigh about2/3rds of a ton.

the GU-11 is a larger calibre (albeit with smaller # of barrels, so overall size probably hasn't changed) and it's ammo is probably similar size to the GU-11's short 55mm rounds.
so the GU-11 is 4 times lighter than i'd expect..

even if we use the GAU-13 derivitives of the GAU-8 (a 4 barrel lighter version designed to gunpod mounting on an F-16.. gun worked great, the "A-16" didn't) that's 330lbs for the gun and still 501lbs for the ammo.. so still about half a ton with mounting, casing, etc. and that's being generous, since the GPU-5/A gunpod IRL, with GAU-13, 353 rounds, and casing was a 1900lbs
http://imagery.vnfawing.com/archive/Wea ... 504741.jpg
http://www.dstorm.eu/pictures/nose-arts ... 0404_1.jpg


honestly, if i was doing eratta, i'd say "350lbs is the weight of the gun system itself, without ammo or housing"

THANK YOU ! This is exactly what I was talking about.

[obsessed]

How many can be stacked onto a pallet inside a VC-27 Tunny depends on weight per pallet, not just internal space or overall weight. Less gun pods per pallet also mitigate the "falling into enemy hands) scenario. The GU-11 guns can not just me crammed inside like matchsticks.

Half right. Each pallet will have to be carefully loaded by a qualified load master. Issus will include
making sure its stable.
making sure the cargo is not damaged
weight distribution
ease of access of the cargo at the destination (if its being dropped to mecha, then mecha will have to be able to unpack it for instance)

Depends on weight per pallet. Happens to be EXACTLY what I said. Details of a load master are moot.

[obsessed]

My original air-dropped idea was single cylindrical containers similar to those paratroopers use.
Examples (just ignore the motorcycle):
http://home.earthlink.net/~flyboyken/si ... kepara.jpg
http://fallschirmjager.net/Vehicles/Dro ... tore05.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/23 ... 593a9c.jpg

Heavy shock foam on the ends, disposable tube, and parachute. A ground mecha basically rips off the container and grabs the gunpos - not that fancy nor complicated.

[glitterboy2098]

except that the GU-11 is at least 4x bigger than those.. plus those containers were loathed by paratroops because they were hard to get open, and scattered the cargo all over the dropzone, making it hard to secure (and made it more likely you'd lose an important part if one fell in an inaccessable area), and those are hard to drop out of the back of aircraft with cargo ramps (like the ones on the VC-33 and VC-27) (the ww2 ones were designed for deployment out of the side doors of aircraft like the DC-3)

modern cargo drops are called palletized because that is literally what they are. pallets, with strap down points for bulk cargo, and parachutes. unlike in ww2, where airdrops are done at high altitude and the cargo spends minutes hanging in mid air (being spread all over by the wind) 2-3 pallets are dropped at lower altitude, causing it to all land in a small, easily defensible area. the aircraft in question can do this at high speed to minimize interception (unlike the ww2 method, where the airplanes have to move fairly slow and are sitting ducks)

[guardiandashi]

except that the GU-11 is at least 4x bigger than those.. plus those containers were loathed by paratroops because they were hard to get open, and scattered the cargo all over the dropzone, making it hard to secure (and made it more likely you'd lose an important part if one fell in an inaccessable area), and those are hard to drop out of the back of aircraft with cargo ramps (like the ones on the VC-33 and VC-27) (the ww2 ones were designed for deployment out of the side doors of aircraft like the DC-3)

modern cargo drops are called palletized because that is literally what they are. pallets, with strap down points for bulk cargo, and parachutes. unlike in ww2, where airdrops are done at high altitude and the cargo spends minutes hanging in mid air (being spread all over by the wind) 2-3 pallets are dropped at lower altitude, causing it to all land in a small, easily defensible area. the aircraft in question can do this at high speed to minimize interception (unlike the ww2 method, where the airplanes have to move fairly slow and are sitting ducks)

similar to this screenshot
http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/ ... 484851.jpg
with gunpods on the pallets, instead of the explosives from the movie.

[glitterboy2098]

better yet, real world:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... allets.jpg
http://media.dma.mil/2014/Aug/05/200081 ... 69-188.JPG
http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/c/images/ ... /size0.jpg
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... 14-WEB.jpg
http://antarcticsun.usap.gov/AntarcticS ... ARGO_1.jpg
https://d1u1p2xjjiahg3.cloudfront.net/b ... 8cd3_l.jpg
http://www.alu.army.mil/alog/issues/Jul ... drop_3.png

[obsessed]

except that the GU-11 is at least 4x bigger than those.. plus those containers were loathed by paratroops because they were hard to get open, and scattered the cargo all over the dropzone, making it hard to secure (and made it more likely you'd lose an important part if one fell in an inaccessable area), and those are hard to drop out of the back of aircraft with cargo ramps (like the ones on the VC-33 and VC-27) (the ww2 ones were designed for deployment out of the side doors of aircraft like the DC-3)

modern cargo drops are called palletized because that is literally what they are. pallets, with strap down points for bulk cargo, and parachutes. unlike in ww2, where airdrops are done at high altitude and the cargo spends minutes hanging in mid air (being spread all over by the wind) 2-3 pallets are dropped at lower altitude, causing it to all land in a small, easily defensible area. the aircraft in question can do this at high speed to minimize interception (unlike the ww2 method, where the airplanes have to move fairly slow and are sitting ducks)

Glitter,
I am NOT suggesting GU-11 pods being deliverred by man-sized paratroop cargo pods.

Please re-read.

[obsessed]

Destroids or VF-1's are NOT going to have problems openning a air-dropped packing cylinder.

I am not disagreeing how C-130, C-17, etc used pallets in modern non-universe. I am saying that one cylinder gunpod is faster to push out the back door than EXAMPLE a pallet of 6 gunpods. Not to mention them falling behind enemy held territory.

Again, how much does the GU-11 weigh?

Google " 463L pallet " and " FM-55-17 Cargo Specialist "

[jaymz]

obsessed - I was asked to pass this info along

the GU-11 gun pod really weighs... the answer is that it weighs 550kg (empty) or 1,450-1,550kg (loaded) depending on the type of ammunition and whether or not the 200rd magazine is completely full.

in Macross, the GU-11's shortcomings were addressed shortly after the first space war with a new GU-11 variant, the GU-11D... which had a removable magazine (at the cost of reduced capacity) and even an optional bayonet.

[obsessed]

obsessed - I was asked to pass this info along

the GU-11 gun pod really weighs... the answer is that it weighs 550kg (empty) or 1,450-1,550kg (loaded) depending on the type of ammunition and whether or not the 200rd magazine is completely full.

in Macross, the GU-11's shortcomings were addressed shortly after the first space war with a new GU-11 variant, the GU-11D... which had a removable magazine (at the cost of reduced capacity) and even an optional bayonet.

I trust this comes from a source, you can also PM me, but those numbers are very reasonable.

55mm gerat 59 german complete round was 5.3 kg, and more modern swedish 57 mm x 438 mm was 6.1 kg. So your stats give 4.5 kg to 5kg per... I like it, I like it a lot.

A wealth if info as always you are Jaymz.

[glitterboy2098]

a ton and a half feels a bit heavy to me.. but it certainly makes more sense than 350lbs.

[eliakon]

obsessed - I was asked to pass this info along

the GU-11 gun pod really weighs... the answer is that it weighs 550kg (empty) or 1,450-1,550kg (loaded) depending on the type of ammunition and whether or not the 200rd magazine is completely full.

in Macross, the GU-11's shortcomings were addressed shortly after the first space war with a new GU-11 variant, the GU-11D... which had a removable magazine (at the cost of reduced capacity) and even an optional bayonet.

200 rounds can add 1000 kg? so around 5kg per round I guess. What is the size of the round supposed to be?

[jaymz]

I just passed the info along. I am not the possessor of said information

[eliakon]

I just passed the info along. I am not the possessor of said information

Can you ask your source to pass along their source?
Inquiring minds want to know and all that...though actually I would be really interested in an official answer one way or another. (whether I USE that answer myself is a different story, but I do like to know if what I am ignoring is official or not )

[obsessed]

...
200 rounds can add 1000 kg? so around 5kg per round I guess. What is the size of the round supposed to be?

Take a google at swedish 57 mm x 438 mm, german 5,0 cm pak 38, and german 5,5 cm gerat 58 ammo. These all weight from 4.5 to 6.3 kg.

So GU-11 cases between 400 and 450mm.

[Kagashi]

I just passed the info along. I am not the possessor of said information

Can you ask your source to pass along their source?
Inquiring minds want to know and all that...though actually I would be really interested in an official answer one way or another. (whether I USE that answer myself is a different story, but I do like to know if what I am ignoring is official or not )

Sounds like something Seto would know.

[eliakon]

I just passed the info along. I am not the possessor of said information

Can you ask your source to pass along their source?
Inquiring minds want to know and all that...though actually I would be really interested in an official answer one way or another. (whether I USE that answer myself is a different story, but I do like to know if what I am ignoring is official or not )

Sounds like something Seto would know.

Which is why I would ask, since I would want to know if the information is actually from a Robotech source, or a Macross source. (They ARE different after all.)

[eliakon]

...
200 rounds can add 1000 kg? so around 5kg per round I guess. What is the size of the round supposed to be?

Take a google at swedish 57 mm x 438 mm, german 5,0 cm pak 38, and german 5,5 cm gerat 58 ammo. These all weight from 4.5 to 6.3 kg.

So GU-11 cases between 400 and 450mm.

That stuff is HUGE. Are we seriously saying that the GU-11 is supposed to be burst firing naval canon rounds?

[Jefffar]

...
200 rounds can add 1000 kg? so around 5kg per round I guess. What is the size of the round supposed to be?

Take a google at swedish 57 mm x 438 mm, german 5,0 cm pak 38, and german 5,5 cm gerat 58 ammo. These all weight from 4.5 to 6.3 kg.

So GU-11 cases between 400 and 450mm.

That stuff is HUGE. Are we seriously saying that the GU-11 is supposed to be burst firing naval canon rounds?

Those are the size of round the folks who created the series said it was, so that's what they wanted it to be.

The quantitative differences between Macross era tech and the other eras are more about the over the top nature of Macross than the other eras being especially bad.

[eliakon]

...
200 rounds can add 1000 kg? so around 5kg per round I guess. What is the size of the round supposed to be?

Take a google at swedish 57 mm x 438 mm, german 5,0 cm pak 38, and german 5,5 cm gerat 58 ammo. These all weight from 4.5 to 6.3 kg.

So GU-11 cases between 400 and 450mm.

That stuff is HUGE. Are we seriously saying that the GU-11 is supposed to be burst firing naval canon rounds?

Those are the size of round the folks who created the series said it was, so that's what they wanted it to be.

The quantitative differences between Macross era tech and the other eras are more about the over the top nature of Macross than the other eras being especially bad.

That's why I was curious as to if the floated number for 1000kg for a 200round magazine was accurate.
If it IS accurate then yes, they are throwing around some heavy shells (Though possibly DU penetrators will help some)
If the number ISN'T accurate though, then the shells may be smaller/lighter

[RiverJack]

If I were to use the GU-12 in the 2nd edition of Robotech, then I would make it a Semi-Auto weapon. Since it is a 100mm bore calibur weapon according to the 1e rdf manual, Depending on the choice of ammo, Id say that it should have similar damage to that of a 105mm VHT round. Also due to the RECOIL that this weapon would undoubtably have, I would not issue this weapon to any veritech fighter. It would however make a good weapon to the 1e Gladiator and/or it's 2e equivelant.

given the recoil of the GAU-8 30mm gatling, i think it's safe to say that the GU-11's 55mm gatling would be fairly high recoil itself. so a single shot 100mm or 105mm cannon should be something a VF can handle.

I havent looked at the rpg books in a very long time BUT why should we assume the recoil is higher on the GU-12? It could be rocket propelled OR the GU-12 could be firing low-very low velocity, shorter range, shorter than GU-11 55mm, 100mm high explosive shells. It would suck trying to hit anything moving fast but if you did hit something, the explosives could pop parts of the target off esp since the GU-12 is firing them fairly quickly.

[FreelancerMar]

Consider this.

A modern M1A1's Main Cannon has a 120mm bore.
Tank Weighs 68 tons
Watch video of this tank in action.
Look at the Recoil of this Tank fireing.

VF1 Weighs 19 tons
There is no possible way that a VF1 fighter could use a GU12 effectively without the recoil knocking the plane out of the sky even as a SEMI-Auto. The VF1 just does not the weight to handle that kind recoil period.

[obsessed]

I just passed the info along. I am not the possessor of said information

Can you ask your source to pass along their source?
Inquiring minds want to know and all that...though actually I would be really interested in an official answer one way or another. (whether I USE that answer myself is a different story, but I do like to know if what I am ignoring is official or not )

Sounds like something Seto would know.

Seto? Last I heard he got busted at a Meltrandi brothel. That man knows how to party.

[obsessed]

If I were to use the GU-12 in the 2nd edition of Robotech, then I would make it a Semi-Auto weapon. Since it is a 100mm bore calibur weapon according to the 1e rdf manual, Depending on the choice of ammo, Id say that it should have similar damage to that of a 105mm VHT round. Also due to the RECOIL that this weapon would undoubtably have, I would not issue this weapon to any veritech fighter. It would however make a good weapon to the 1e Gladiator and/or it's 2e equivelant.

given the recoil of the GAU-8 30mm gatling, i think it's safe to say that the GU-11's 55mm gatling would be fairly high recoil itself. so a single shot 100mm or 105mm cannon should be something a VF can handle.

I havent looked at the rpg books in a very long time BUT why should we assume the recoil is higher on the GU-12? It could be rocket propelled OR the GU-12 could be firing low-very low velocity, shorter range, shorter than GU-11 55mm, 100mm high explosive shells. It would suck trying to hit anything moving fast but if you did hit something, the explosives could pop parts of the target off esp since the GU-12 is firing them fairly quickly.

GU-12 might be, although there is not any rpg details, a recoilless projectile. Just because it is 100mm, doesn't necesarily mean it is fired from a large brass cartidge like a tank gun.

No... Firing the GU-12 during flight would not drop the VF-1 out of the sky.

[Kagashi]

I just passed the info along. I am not the possessor of said information

Can you ask your source to pass along their source?
Inquiring minds want to know and all that...though actually I would be really interested in an official answer one way or another. (whether I USE that answer myself is a different story, but I do like to know if what I am ignoring is official or not )

Sounds like something Seto would know.

Which is why I would ask, since I would want to know if the information is actually from a Robotech source, or a Macross source. (They ARE different after all.)

Seeing its says the word "really" in the quote...its Seto. Additionally, he references a GU11D which is only in the Macross-verse. Its a Macross post, which has nothing to do with the ROBOTECH RPG. Did Palladium screw up the weights of the GU11? Prolly. But they are canon in the RPG now.