Franken-Mecha

[ShadowLogan]

i found the use of hp ratings a bit odd actually.. that's not usually a measure i associate with nuclear powerplants. but i suspect it does help avoid giving a direct megawatt rating.

i do wish we'd had a specific duration given for the gas turbines on the destroids.. that would let us ballpark an efficency and thus figure out how long a conventionally powered mecha might last between fuelings..

I would like some uniformity in the ratings of the engine/powerplants so that one can actually compare them in the RPG (kw, thrust, etc), as it is... The SLMH endurance figures are nice, but they also lack a level of detail about how much is actually there unlike the PC canisters (which at least allows for easy transference) and more conventional fuel tanks (again gallon/liter rating allow easy transference).

With regard to the gas turbines in the destroids. I just assumed they operated in concert with the main reactor and use its fuel supply, though now I have to wonder if it only pops on for short durations...

[SRoss]

I suspect that they are like the second engine on the Centurion tank. Just there to run the electronics and the turret when the main engine is off.

[Seto Kaiba]

IF I did the math right (based on hp ratings for engines in 2E RPG):
-the 4 smaller UEDF Destroids generate ~2,300-3,000kw of energy
-the Monster Destroid generates ~9,200kw of energy
-the 2 UEDF VHTs generate ~1,800kw
-the AGAC has~9,500kw (note this is from two engines)

Are you accounting for the fact that some of those are brake horsepower of the drive train and not generator horsepower?

[taalismn]

You're still looking at one ugly fuel-eatin' hog of a mecha...and, post-Rain, there's no longer massive franchises of fast food joints you can hit up for cooking grease to burn even if you got an omni-fuel system("Your grease trap is now a tactical asset of the Army of the Southern Cross.") .

[glitterboy2098]

on the otherhand, a conventional fuel system can run on ethonol (pretty much every community is going to have at least one still), wood gas or coal gas (gasifiers are easy to build), even methane ("who run barter town?")

[ShadowLogan]

Are you accounting for the fact that some of those are brake horsepower of the drive train and not generator horsepower?

I'm aware that the horsepower ratings are not all the same in the RPG, I did used a single conversion factor. Yes I know b/hp and s/hp convert slightly differently to kw, but after rounding (which I did) those slight differences would disappear.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm aware that the horsepower ratings are not all the same in the RPG, I did used a single conversion factor. Yes I know b/hp and s/hp convert slightly differently to kw, but after rounding (which I did) those slight differences would disappear.

Generator output isn't listed for the primary engines of the destroids though... only the power they're supplying to their drive train. So it may not be (probably isn't) reflective of their actual generator output.

Just something to think on.

Spoiler:

What little information I've been able to dredge up on the subject suggests that the Destroids actually had main generator outputs of several dozen megawatts to drive all their systems at maximum performance, and the backup generator is there mainly to either give a destroid the power to limp away if the main goes down, or to speed the recharge of energy weapons. Variable Fighter Master File: Squadrons of the SDF-1 Macross may provide more information on that front... but my copy's still in transit.

[ShadowLogan]

Generator output isn't listed for the primary engines of the destroids though... only the power they're supplying to their drive train. So it may not be (probably isn't) reflective of their actual generator output.

Granted that is one way to take the limited text in the RPG, but it also gives an idea of how much output a conventional engine has to have to take the place of the fusion generator to run the drive train.

A single T64-GE-100 gas turbine engine (used on helicopters, Sikorski H-53 variety) puts out 4,330 s/hp compared to the typical Destroid's 2,800 (3,200 Spartan), so Destroids could easily see a conventional powered version off one engine (Monster would require x3) to run their drive train. With excess capacity (or additional engines) they could power additional systems and as the ASC's M-220x series of AFVs illustrates it can be powered completely by conventional fuels AND it has a beam weapon it can re-charge.

[glitterboy2098]

that is why when i did my notes for use, i had the gas turbine operation in the UEDF destroids only providing movement and non-energy weapon power. Mg's, autocannon, mortars, even firing missiles only really need minimal power, and if a real world tank can mount all of them and use them, there is little reason a destroid couldn't under turbine power. though i think i did have the Defender's special radar offline on turbine power.. that sort of system tends to use a lot of power.

[Seto Kaiba]

Granted that is one way to take the limited text in the RPG, but it also gives an idea of how much output a conventional engine has to have to take the place of the fusion generator to run the drive train.

One way, yes... but it's probably not a good idea to start with an assumption that entails that different, incompatible measurements of horsepower are interchangeable. Or that the seriously sophisticated giant robot is producing less power than a common helicopter.

A single T64-GE-100 gas turbine engine (used on helicopters, Sikorski H-53 variety) puts out 4,330 s/hp compared to the typical Destroid's 2,800 (3,200 Spartan), so Destroids could easily see a conventional powered version off one engine [...]

Shaft horsepower and brake horsepower are not really what you'd call a compatible set of measurements, especially considering the radically different implementations of vehicle drive system. Brake horsepower is the drivetrain power before the losses caused by gearbox, alternator, etc., while shaft horsepower is the power delivered to a propeller or turbine shaft. Torque matters a hell of a lot more for land vehicles than horsepower anyway...

[Tiree]

But you would burn literally villages worth of ethanol output for every hour of output like that...

Hmm...I like the Neo-Gen-Eva though above though (glitterboy2098), maybe a central power source feeding a series of capacitance banks and batteries, and then sent on over to mecha using combination fuel stacks (ShadowLogan) such as the power armors and batteries systems (Tiree) to replace their power plants entirely? If it has outside power its "fine" (within a narrow, or perhaps conservative view of fine of course), and if it loses external power it has only so long before both the fuel cells and the batteries are expended of overheated from producing power over too short a period of time at too high a level of draw. (Presuming I really understand hydrogen style fuel cells of course...)

I am using a 'High End Capacitor' system. Which gives the PA about 3 hours of constant use, and about 1 hour of combat use. They generally needed to be carted to wherever they are going to go for a fight (dropped off of aircraft, or on the back of a truck).

I had the capacitors standard in large construction vehicles, and from 1st and 2nd Generation flex fuel hybrid vehicles.

[glitterboy2098]

But you would burn literally villages worth of ethanol output for every hour of output like that...

well, i said you could use them.. not that it would be easy. though you have to figure, there would be a market for alternative fuels like that, since oil would be a much more regional thing.. a community that had an industrial brewery before the invid could well have adapted the hardware to churn out non-consumption grade alchohol and methanol based biodiesel for use as fuel. they'd easily become locally powerful as a result since they would be able to provide fuel for heat and power to the surrounding communities. even without a industrial plant for it (by which i mean anything bigger than a microbrewery) you could have multiple smaller, homemade stills operating to produce it in fair amounts. maybe not enough for constant use of a converted mecha, but enough you could fill its tanks between occasional uses. (supplying the towns cars/trucks would certainly be a higher priority in most cases)

the same for a methane plant, even a jury rigged one like Bartertown from the madmax series. there is no reason to limit yourself to backyard or basement scale operations.

[ShadowLogan]

One way, yes... but it's probably not a good idea to start with an assumption that entails that different, incompatible measurements of horsepower are interchangeable. Or that the seriously sophisticated giant robot is producing less power than a common helicopter.

Maybe, but it is an assumption that the sophisticated giant robot is producing more power than a conventional vehicle is capable of.

The Kilowatt unit doesn't discriminate on the form of the horsepower (electrical, mechanical, etc). So it is possible to put them all in the same units for direct comparison.

Shaft horsepower and brake horsepower are not really what you'd call a compatible set of measurements, especially considering the radically different implementations of vehicle drive system. Brake horsepower is the drivetrain power before the losses caused by gearbox, alternator, etc., while shaft horsepower is the power delivered to a propeller or turbine shaft. Torque matters a hell of a lot more for land vehicles than horsepower anyway...

Aside from the Monster Destroid, the xxR-04/07 series Destroids have power plants listed in s/hp in the 2E RPG, just like the helicopter engine so in that respect they are directly comparable. Other comparisons would require putting the various ratings into the same unit, which is possible.

[Seto Kaiba]

Maybe, but it is an assumption that the sophisticated giant robot is producing more power than a conventional vehicle is capable of.

Within the confines of the RPG... not really. Especially since the OSM backs up the idea that a giant robot IS producing WAY more power than a conventional vehicle is capable of.

The Kilowatt unit doesn't discriminate on the form of the horsepower (electrical, mechanical, etc). So it is possible to put them all in the same units for direct comparison.

That's the backup electrical generator though, it's not directly tied into the drivetrain (as far as we know).

[ShadowLogan]

That's the backup electrical generator though, it's not directly tied into the drivetrain (as far as we know).

Actually it can apply to the main drivetrain to. It all depends on what units one wants to present the information in. And you can convert s/hp to kw in a consistent manner.

Here is a link that has the M1A1's gas turbine engine rated in both s/hp (english) and kw (metric), straight from the manufacturer's website:
http://www.honeywell.com/sites/aero/Tur ... 399CBF.htm

[taalismn]

Just some not-so-serious heavy metal slapstick

"SnoJob" Ice Guard Destroid

Components:
*SDR-04 Phalanx Destroid
*MIW-20 Triple-Barreled Ion Pulse Cannon or HL-80 Rapid-Fire Laser Cannon
*2x IGX-BJ02 Turbulence Generators
*Extra Armor Plating

The 'SnoJobs'(the pilots reportedly insist on calling them 'StormKings') are bizarre IMUs belonging to the legendary Ice Guard, said to haunt the extreme northern hemisphere. Rarely seen, and even more rarely reliably documented, these old clankers seem to be rebuilds of old SDR-04 Phalanxes, fitted with extra-large footpads(presumably as snow-shoes) and extra armor plating(50% more leg and main body armor, but also increase weight by 25%), and a rapid-fire energy weapon mounted on the head, under the searchlight array(sometimes replaced with an ADS radome) for point defense.
THe real change, however, which has led to much controversy, if the refit of the signature missile launcher drum arms with what appear to be massive ducted fans or cyclonic blowers. These devices seem to be able to draw air from their backside venting(where the regular Phalanxes would have their missile exhauts) and super-accelerate it, throwing out vortices of atmospheric turbulence powerful enough to smash flying mecha out of the sky, batter ground facilties, flip over ground vehicles, and send personnel flying.(GMs, if you want to get exact, use an atmospheric power from Heroes Unlimited, only increase range, damage, and duration anywhere from 5-10 times). The exact mechanism of how this works is unknown(the few UEEF engineers and field scientists wjo mandaged to see the devices in action complained of headaches or a desire to get VERY drunk, and the crews of the mecha will, if questioned, only say "It's SCIENCE!!!". The typical Ice Guard account usually has the Invid cornering a group of resistance fighters, when they are suddenly smashed down or thrown across the landscape by a sudden violent windstorm, then picked off as they tumble across the sky or attempt to regain their feet by other combatants arriving on the scene. The ambushers then, after a few moments checking on the astonished resistance fighters, vanish back into the wilderness, often under cover of another windstorm throwing up snow or debris to cover their escape.
More incredibly, and what usually gets the credibility of the Ice Guard stories thrown out, are reports of the destroids using their turbulance generators to FLY. Yes, FLY, by pointing the devices at the ground and lurching into the sky on two cyclonic funnels of air. The Ice Guard mecha reportedly use this to overcome the mobility handicap of first-generation destroids, erase their tracks, and confuse the bejeezus out of any witnesses. They appear to have totally succeeded on the last score, as the UEEF and Resistance have written off any reports of Ice Guard as 'Big Foot tales', the products of too much booze, or much idle time, or not enough insulation.

[glitterboy2098]

Mecha Aerosani!

[taalismn]

Mecha Aerosani!

Indeed. Only they've amped it to INSANE power levels. Levels only madmen would think were possible.
In other words, anybody after the first 36 months of deployment in IceGuard.

[ShadowLogan]

"SnoJob" Ice Guard Destroid

Components:
*SDR-04 Phalanx Destroid
*MIW-20 Triple-Barreled Ion Pulse Cannon or HL-80 Rapid-Fire Laser Cannon
*2x IGX-BJ02 Turbulence Generators
*Extra Armor Plating...

Reminds me of my Leaf Blower (and variants) IMU from a few years ago that I posted (has it really been that long?). It is certainly a different take on the concept of a mobile wind machine. Good job.

[taalismn]

"SnoJob" Ice Guard Destroid

Components:
*SDR-04 Phalanx Destroid
*MIW-20 Triple-Barreled Ion Pulse Cannon or HL-80 Rapid-Fire Laser Cannon
*2x IGX-BJ02 Turbulence Generators
*Extra Armor Plating...

Reminds me of my Leaf Blower (and variants) IMU from a few years ago that I posted (has it really been that long?). It is certainly a different take on the concept of a mobile wind machine. Good job.

Seemed a logical progression, given the direction I was taking Kargan3033's 'Ice Guard'...into crazy-ass machines nobody can take seriously, even when they're tromping all over the place. Now to figure out what Yeti Bioroids, Sasquatch Battloids, and BigFoot Destroids will be like..

[SRoss]

Monster legs, a VF-1 body, and the longest arms you can find?

I feel a sudden uncontrollable urge to take this to a parking lot.

[taalismn]

Monster legs, a VF-1 body, and the longest arms you can find?

I think the longest arms are those on the Zentraedi Recovery Pod...

Don't forget the oversized ghillie suit to go over the thing.

[ZINO]

Monster legs, a VF-1 body, and the longest arms you can find?

I feel a sudden uncontrollable urge to take this to a parking lot.

epic

[ShadowLogan]

Medium Attack Scorpion Hovercraft IMU
Requires:
VHT-1 torso/main body section (minus weapon systems and limbs)
1.5 additional ASC Battloid arm (just about any will do, though smaller battloids are avoided), additional sections are possible
1 additional VHT-1 Arm Shield (a VHT-2 will also work, usually not the heavy cannon)
2 lower legs from a VHT-1 or VHT-2 (working hoverjet system)
2 battloid scale arms (can be VHT-1) and shoulder assembly
2 Invid Shock Trooper Forearm/Claws (Optional)
1 VF-1R style automated defense AI (Optional)
Sensors
Additional parts as needed

The Medium Attack Scorpion Hovercraft IMU has more in common with old Monster Truck 'bots from the late 20th Century than 21st Century RT mecha in design. At its core the unit is a hovercraft, built out of the VHT-1 main assembly area (no limbs) that has been mode locked to the baseline's (ie non-IMU) Gladiator Mode that is missing the EU-11 (not useful in that mode) and all four limbs (arms w/their shields, and legs).

To restore hovercraft style movement the IMU builders mounted two lower legs (complete with restored hoverjet system) from either the VHT-1 or VHT-2 (though some techs have been known to substitute M-10 Hovertruck) in the transport mode position. Agility is somewhat sluggish compared to the VHT-1 owing to the aerodynamics involved.

Arms have been restored, though are mounted a bit forward of the original station to give them better reach. The old arm connectors are usually not used, though some techs have been known to outfit mini-missile launchers that can traverse fairly well owing to the shoulder hardware. Owing to the name the mecha received as a “Scorpion”, later work would try to include mounting a salvaged Invid Forearm/Claw shield assembly.

The mecha gets its name as a Scorpion mecha from the fact that the EU-11 storage station has been removed and replaced with a third arm that has extra joints to give it increased reach. This “tail” or third arm has very good range of motion, and can even swivel all the way around. The tail is constructed out of at minimum 3 arm sections from salvaged battloid limbs. The hand may or may not have been removed to make way for additional weapons to be built in to be used in conjunction with the a VHT-2 armshield weapon pod (VHT-1 can also be used, typically they avoid the heavy cannon versions from the VHT-1).

The “tail”has sensors to allow the pilot to direct actions better, but the system can also be controlled by an AI system (usually an improved version of the VF-1R type using stripped down Golem or Ghost Drone Ais). When an AI system is not available, the techs have tried a few different ways to add a second seat to the VHT for a dedicated user of the tail, the most common are a near standing position behind the main operator's seat or a second “cockpit seat” (VHT-1/2 type) is attached to the lowest portion of the tail. Otherwise the pilot has to operate the tail manually (no bonus attacks because of the tail in this manner).

In melee combat the unit enjoys a lower center of mass making it difficult for taller mecha to engage (as not counting the “tail” the unit is only 8ft tall roughly). Successful pilots in this realm are the ones who have learned to capitalize on Invid melee tactics and improve upon them. The tail also allows for surprise attacks while the limbs are “entangled” (smart pilots tend to also position the Invid limbs in front of the their top mounted cannons) giving clear shots at the Sensor Eye.

Light Fast Attack Scorpion Hovercraft IMU
Requires:
VF-8 Logan (no limbs required)
2 VHT-1/2 lower legs and hover system (may substitute in a M-10 Hovertruck), mode locked for Transport mode
1.5 additional ASC Battloid arm/shoulder (generally use the smaller units), additional sections are possible
1 VHT-1/2 Arm Shield & Weapon System (Optional)
1 Hand or ASC Battloid tool hands (Optional)
1 VF-1R style automated defense AI (Optional)
Sensors
Additional parts as necessary.

Similar to the Medium Attack Scorpion Hovercraft IMU in concept and layout (that of a hovercraft/mecha hybrid with “scorpion” tail), the Light Fast Attack version put an emphasis on smaller size and speed.

At its core is a Logan Veritch fighter, either mode locked in fighter mode or more commonly just the top half of the mecha. On the lower body is mounted a pair of VHT lower legs and their hoversystem (some use a single stripped down H-10 hovertruck for the same purpose). Between the distinctive twin rear engines is mounted a third extended reach arm and shoulder joint. The extended arm usually only has 1 extra section (upper or lower part of the arm), but it is not unheard of to see 2 or 3 extra sections (usually in this case not not enough to produce traditional arms, making them ideal for the tail). The tail either utilizes a standard hand or tool (common) or mounts a VHT-2 tri-cannon pod/shield in place of the hand. Some basic sensors are mounted in the last module of the “tail” to allow the pilot to better direct the actions of the tail. Control is either manual or via computer automation (VF-1R style automated defense AI, some times built out of stripped down Golem or Ghost Ais).

It is more common to see this design used by bandits than freedom fighters or “trusted” Invid Sympath groups as the high speed craft allows for some fairly fast get aways. That is not to say those and other independent groups don't attempt to utilize the design, but they tend to prefer a design that isn't associated with bandits so much. Common bandit tactics involve using the “tail” to steal from moving convoy vehicles and either transfer it to a trailor or other nearby vehicle or make off with it themselves in a dash and grab. Bandit style tails tend to be more basic and put emphasis on “tools” rather than combat.


Scorpion Battloid Enhancement IMU Attachment
Requires:
1 Battloid mode mecha (PA, VT, or nt-B)
1.5 battloid-scale arm limbs (should be in scale to the target mecha), more are possible, this should include multiple sections
1 VHT-2 Arm Shield Weapon Pod (Optional)
1 VF-1R style automated defense AI (Optional)
Sensors
Additional parts as needed for mounting purposes.

The Scorpion Enhancement IMU Attachment comes in a variety of assembled forms that are either integrated into the IMU proper (when possible) or done as a FAST-Pack/GBP-1S attachment to the back/rear to give a Battloid mecha a “Scorpion tail” to create a “Scorpion mecha man”. The Scorpion classification is only used when the “tail” has mounted or built-in weapons in which to “sting” like a scorpion.

The package was developed during the Invid occupation first by (highly trusted) Sympaths and then adopted by the resistance to improve the fighting capability of battloids, though rumors persist of similar unconfirmed malcontent era use.

The Scorpion tail is built out of (at minimum) 3 in scale (usually) battloid arms sections (upper arm, lower arm). Generally the last (forward tip) section is always a lower arm/forearm assembly, with the mid/base section built using upper arms and their actuators to grant a much wider range of movement than normally possible with the arm due to the additional sections. This super arm is capable of reaching over/around to fire/attack forward. The Base section attaches to the Battloid in one of two ways, either it is hardwired into the battloid and a permanent fixture, or it has been done over in a FAST Pack/GBP-1S type mounting package for easy jettisoning should the situation require it (damage, stuck, etc). The tip section may or may not retain the original hand, most have replace the hand with a non-standardized home brew weapon cluster with the only standardized feature of which is the inclusion of an ASC punching spike. A camera system has been installed in the arm to allow the pilot to better direct the limb, though a VF-1R type AI system (Golem and Ghost mecha AI can also work) may also have been installed to improve combat effectiveness. It should be noted that some tips also mount a single VHT-2 forearm weapon pod (VHT-1 cousin can also be used but will normally be cut down to improve mobility) regardless of the status of the hand area.

In combat the mecha pilot does not gain an additional attack per melee from the inclusion of the tail (as normally seen in Palladium products, though if the GM wishes to they can) for the main reason that the battloid control console and training really isn't set up for the handling of the extra limb under these conditions. Highly proficient pilots (WITH the system) do seem to react faster in the long run. A common tactic one is likely to see these enhanced mecha use against others w/o the ability is to close to melee range, entangle the others arms with their arms and then send the tail in for a strike (against Invid mecha this usually targets the Sensor Eye). Attacks of this nature qualify as Critical Strikes since the target is extremely limited in their defensive options.

Over/Undersized mecha limbs for the “tail” are possible, but generally come with their own set of issues. Oversized parts tend to unbalance the mecha (-1 attack per melee, +1 roll & dodge though as pilots utilize that unstable nature to their advantage in those defensive actions, otherwise -1 to roll and dodge). Undersized parts require additional limb parts to give proper reach around capability (so w/o it defensive arc to the rear only). Mix and match situations (in-line, over, under combinations) are possible, but performance is generally a blend.

The feature is more common on ASC/UEEF battloids, but there have been a few confirmed instances of using UEDF and ASC Power Armor (treating the Silverback and any relatives as a Battloid). The Veritech Cyclone has never seen this used.

[taalismn]

There's a Light and a Medium Scorpion IMU...
Uh-oh, that means there's a Heavy on the way, right?


Something like when somebody did up one of Steve Jackson's OGRE cybertanks as a walker...

[ShadowLogan]

I don't have plans for a "Heavy" at this time, more of a reflection of the fact that the Logan is a "light" platform, and the VHT-1 is (essentially) a "medium" platform. If you (or anyone else) has ideas for a "Heavy" version have at it.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Topic locked at request of original poster.