Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

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Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

Okay,

its apparent that the official stats for the Archangels leave much to be desired. Most are in agreement that 750,000 colonists is too high and therefore unrealistic. However, I think a number would also agree that 75,000 is too low. So, let's put our heads together and see if we can actually arrive at something that is a little more reasonable.

Since we can safely conclude it doesn't transform and that the Synchro-cannon is supposed to take up less space than the reflex cannon (otherwise, why switch over to a different weapon system?), what would be a reasonable amount of colonists to cram into the hull? What kind of endurance stores could be carried to ensure the ship's complement (crew, colonists) have enough food, water and air to survive (presumably) years of searching for a new homeworld to set up a new colony?

I for one think that SDF Macross's take on colonization is probably correct that both the Angel-class and Archangel-class would require an escort fleet for each mission. Furthermore, I would imagine that a new colony mission would require multiple colony ships, plenty of escorts and several replenishment ships. At least for my Alternate Robotech that is the idea I'm going with. That and the fact that the UEF Fleet before the 2nd Robotech War SHOULD be well over 5000 ships strong given that they have more than one Factory Satellite at their disposal.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Arnie100 »

What about 100,000 or so colonists? With 6-8 escort ships? With 2-4 replenishment ships? With provisions for one year mission.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

If the mission is going to be over a year I think you would need at least ten tons of supplies for colonist. That covers food and supplies needed for the voyage, plus what they will need on arrival.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Chris0013 »

As far as good....keep in mind that they may have hydroponic facilities on board the colony ship. There food stores could be protein/meat intensive with maybe only several months of vegetables, fruit, etc....and relying on the hydroponics to grow what they can. As well as being able to recycle all water waste with 100% efficiency. Just don't think about where the stuff flushed down the toilet eventually ends up.

Also, the Arkangel is over twice the length of the SDF-1 and a whole lot more massive. There is plenty of room for maybe 150,000 colonists. Maybe even 100,000 families. As well as a full military force. at least comparable to the SDF-1
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:its apparent that the official stats for the Archangels leave much to be desired. Most are in agreement that 750,000 colonists is too high and therefore unrealistic. However, I think a number would also agree that 75,000 is too low.

Eh... personally, I think that even the 75,000 figure is pushing it a little when it comes to a ship that size. The Ark Angel-class is barely over two kilometers long, and even if the ship devotes over 90% of its internal space to the colonists instead of limiting them to only the colony bays (which was clearly the original intent), the ship's population density would land it on the Top 50 cities for population density. Not necessarily a problem if you have a substantial influx of supplies on a consistent basis, but on a long-range colony mission with minimal opportunity to resupply, that's kind of pushing it.

(Comparably-sized colony ships from Macross carry a population a third that size, and that's devoting almost their entire internal volume to the colonists)




Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Since we can safely conclude it doesn't transform and that the Synchro-cannon is supposed to take up less space than the reflex cannon (otherwise, why switch over to a different weapon system?)

There's nothing to indicate a synchro cannon should take up less internal space than a reflex cannon... the only thing said in regards to how a synchro cannon is supposedly a step up is that it's more efficient. It's not like the Ark Angel's is tiny either, since it takes up a sizable portion of the ship's bow the same way the SDF-3 and SDF-4's do.



Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:what would be a reasonable amount of colonists to cram into the hull? What kind of endurance stores could be carried to ensure the ship's complement (crew, colonists) have enough food, water and air to survive (presumably) years of searching for a new homeworld to set up a new colony?

Using the entirety of the available space not devoted to vital shipboard systems (the main engines, fold drives, fuel tankage, reactors) and defenses (the synchro cannon, the ~400+ Alpha fighters assigned to the ship, and the supplies to keep them running), I'd say around 30-40,000 is the best they could hope to accommodate in relative comfort for any lengthy trip. If the entire population is confined to the colony bays, as was obviously intended by the original draft design, I'd ramp that number down to maybe 10-15,000 tops... given the size comparison on robotech.com, those colony bays can't be more than 300-400m long...
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Sgt Anjay »

Well, going from the op parameters...

I'm gonna go on the assumption the ship has some form of hydroponics or simular food production methods, advanced recycling and reclamation, and life support management systems to turn the ship into an enclosed biosphere for the most part. The technology to do so is certainly there, and if other ships are there to provide the additional supplies and materials, as well as performing foraging along the way, this greatly reduces storage spaces needed on the actual Ark Angel-class ship. I would also assume, though, production facilities at least a la the SDF-1, so there would be both the space for those and raw materials for them taken up.

While I can see plenty of recreation and leisure areas, some parks (doubling, of course, as either food production or simply carbon dioxide-to-oxygen conversion for the biosphere), and possibly even enough overhead space on the colony deck levels to use EVE to create a false sky, which has the handy effect of also making them tall enough for mecha/Zentraedi, a full on cityscape is unlikely if they're trying to maximize space.

Hmm.

A few hundred thousand max?

If, instead, they go with a cityscape internal plan, integrating SDF-1 know-how with technology garnered from Tirol and their cityships but on a much smaller scale...maybe 100 to 150k.

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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by jaymz »

In regards ot food.....couldn't they take page out of hte Zentraedi book adn have some kind of processed paste or "food" and supplement that witha hydroponics system of somekind? That would definitely extend any mission in reagrsd to food supplies.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by jaymz »

WildWalker wrote:
Emperor Ryu wrote:
WildWalker wrote:If I'm understanding the numbers from the Mars Direct project you are looking at around 2.6 kg of consumables per day because of recycling. That comes out to just shy of 1 metric ton of consumable per person per year. Call it 1mt/person per year.

That means for 100,000 people for 1 year you'd need 365,000mt of consumables per year or about the mass of 3-4 modern aircraft carriers.


But, isn't there a difference between the Mars Direct and the Ark Angel Ship, in terms of technology being employed here?

I was just looking for a baseline. I think they could better that by double or better...particularly becasue there is no economies of scale in a 4 person spacecraft designed as a one off,

I'm getting confused, I think...The ship I was envisioning is the Macross Island type ships with an "island" approximately 6-15km long. Using New York City as a place to start for population density, 750,000 people is not that crowded for that big a ship and storage for a volume equivalent to 28 aircraft carriers for consumables does not seem like that big a deal.

Am I thinking of the right type of ship?

WildWalker


No the Ark-Angel class is the ship they leave Space station Liberty with near the end of Shadow Chronicles
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Sgt Anjay wrote:If, instead, they go with a cityscape internal plan, integrating SDF-1 know-how with technology garnered from Tirol and their cityships but on a much smaller scale...maybe 100 to 150k.

Eh... unlike with the SDF-1, the Ark Angel doesn't have the luxury of displacing thousands of crew members to externally-docked ships to provide more room for accommodating the ship's habitat sectors. It's also worth noting that the SDF-1's internal city was something made in extremis, not something intended for long term space travel.



WildWalker wrote:I'm getting confused, I think...The ship I was envisioning is the Macross Island type ships with an "island" approximately 6-15km long. [...]

Am I thinking of the right type of ship?

Nope... you're several orders of magnitude too large there. The Ark Angel-class would be positively dwarfed by one of Macross's 3rd Generation (e.g. Macross-7) or 5th Generation (e.g. Macross Frontier) cityships. The ship being discussed is this ugly clunker, from the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles movie.



WildWalker wrote:Got it...how big is that supposed to be?

The overall length of the Ark Angel-class colony ship as stated the official Shadow Chronicles art book is 2.57km from end to end, of which only 2.14km is actual ship (the rest is protruding antennae and the engine vanes which extend beyond the main hull of the ship). Somehow, 750,000 people are supposed to fit into that space... presumably mostly in the "colony bays" visible on the aft quarter of the ship, if the concept art is anything to go by.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

I'd more easily say the thing hold half the offical number. 350,000 or so.
its 2x as long as the SDF-1, and by the mechc compariosn chart, its Height is higher across the entire lenght than the SDF-1 at it tallest point.
Width is harder to tell, but fomr the Look, it could easily be 500-600m in width.
it much larger then the SDF-1, and theat ship help 70,000 in it, City, parks, Arcades and tons of un-used wasted space like the area Rick and Minmie got caught in.
it they took advantage of the entire interior, had minimal wasted space... i should hold alot more then 2x the SDF-1.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Colonel Wolfe wrote:it much larger then the SDF-1, and theat ship help 70,000 in it, City, parks, Arcades and tons of un-used wasted space like the area Rick and Minmie got caught in

Rick and Minmei were trapped in an area that was, given what we see of it, a utility access corridor. It's not the sort of place where building would even be feasible, so that isn't really a fair indication of how much free space the SDF-1 had. Now, mind you, the production art of the original series shows that the city occupied almost the entire interior of the ship as well...


Colonel Wolfe wrote:it they took advantage of the entire interior, had minimal wasted space... i should hold alot more then 2x the SDF-1.

But they can't take advantage of the entire interior of the ship... the ship's vital systems all have to take up space inside the hull. The available living space for colonists is curtailed by the massive main engine systems, the clusters of sub-engines scattered across the hull, the bow-mounted synchro cannon, the fold drive, and the reflex furnaces that provide the huge amounts of energy needed to run all that take up space... and that isn't even factoring in concerns like fuel storage, cargo space for the huge amount of food and medicine the ship would need to sustain a population that size, prefabricated housing and other vital supplies for building the colony when they find a planet, and the hangar space, spare parts storage, fuel and munitions storage, and all the other supplies needed to keep the ship's 380+ Alpha fighters and whatever other military hardware it's carrying armed and operational.

In short, there's no way they're going to be able to take advantage of the entire interior of the ship. They'd be lucky to get half. If they're lucky they'll have about the same amount of space as Macross's Megaroad-class ships. There's no way they'll get anywhere near 100,000 colonists in there long-term. :nh:
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:it much larger then the SDF-1, and theat ship help 70,000 in it, City, parks, Arcades and tons of un-used wasted space like the area Rick and Minmie got caught in

Rick and Minmei were trapped in an area that was, given what we see of it, a utility access corridor. It's not the sort of place where building would even be feasible, so that isn't really a fair indication of how much free space the SDF-1 had. Now, mind you, the production art of the original series shows that the city occupied almost the entire interior of the ship as well...
so here they use the entire interior space for the city....


Colonel Wolfe wrote:it they took advantage of the entire interior, had minimal wasted space... i should hold alot more then 2x the SDF-1.

But they can't take advantage of the entire interior of the ship...
but here they can't? :?:

the ship's vital systems all have to take up space inside the hull. The available living space for colonists is curtailed by the massive main engine systems, the clusters of sub-engines scattered across the hull, the bow-mounted synchro cannon, the fold drive, and the reflex furnaces that provide the huge amounts of energy needed to run all that take up space... and that isn't even factoring in concerns like fuel storage, cargo space for the huge amount of food and medicine the ship would need to sustain a population that size, prefabricated housing and other vital supplies for building the colony when they find a planet, and the hangar space, spare parts storage, fuel and munitions storage, and all the other supplies needed to keep the ship's 380+ Alpha fighters and whatever other military hardware it's carrying armed and operational.
All of thie was included in the SDF-1 to some extent, it held 70,000 people, wiht lots of wasted space. The Idea of Free-standing housing in a ship is silly to begin with. i see why they did ti in the SDF-1, they transfered building fomr macross island to inside the ship (or something), but the SDF-1 wasnt a colonly vessel, and held 70,000... not make a Purpose built colony vessel, minus free-standing building, and wasted spaces for parks and stadiums... and this is assuming the Ark-Angels were designed for long term trips through deep space, which isnt a solid assumption.

In short, there's no way they're going to be able to take advantage of the entire interior of the ship. They'd be lucky to get half. If they're lucky they'll have about the same amount of space as Macross's Megaroad-class ships. There's no way they'll get anywhere near 100,000 colonists in there long-term. :nh:
a Ship with at least 2x (prolly 5-6X)the space of the SDF-1 holds 50% more people?
the SDF-1 lasted in Space for 13 months, wiht 70,000 peopel inside, with no preperation for said event... a little planning and a purpose built ship would allow for alot more then 50% more people with 200% or more the Space.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Colonel Wolfe wrote:[...] but here they can't? :?:

In a word... yes. Unlike the Ark Angel, which has to cram everything into the same interior space and carry food and fuel stores for long-term space exploration, the SDF-1 wasn't set up to be a long-term space colonization ship. It wasn't carrying large quantities of food or other supplies vital to constructing a permanent colony on another planet. They were also able to do something the Ark Angel's crew couldn't... displace a large portion of the mecha compliment to another ship.



Colonel Wolfe wrote:but the SDF-1 wasnt a colonly vessel, and held 70,000... not make a Purpose built colony vessel, minus free-standing building, and wasted spaces for parks and stadiums... and this is assuming the Ark-Angels were designed for long term trips through deep space, which isnt a solid assumption.

Yes... I'm glad you understand the SDF-1 wasn't a colony vessel. I'm just frustrated that you're not grasping the implications of that fact. It was never set up to support a sizable civilian population for long periods of time. They weren't carrying the equipment to build a settlement on another planet, or the food and supplies to sustain a population in space for years at a time. They lasted as long as they did because they were able to pillage what remained of the island, and then Mars Base, and finally receive resupply from Earth. That's THREE resupply operations in a year... not exactly feasible in the long term. Did you also forget about the rationing imposed while the city was being rebuilt? How even Minmei's family couldn't get more than what looked like a single ration pack?

As far as long-term trips go, I suggest you go read the OP's post. It also runs counter to common sense for them to build a massive colony ship with dedicated habitat sections for quick back-and-forth runs to a known location. That'd just be hideously wasteful. Even if they ARE just an overelaborate bus hauling civilians between a fixed set of stops, that won't eliminate the cargo requirements for managing their sizable fighter compliment, supporting the ship's crew, and building the colonies themselves.



Colonel Wolfe wrote:a Ship with at least 2x (prolly 5-6X)the space of the SDF-1 holds 50% more people?

If that... endurance is going to be important in space colonization, since there's no actual guarantee that they'll find an inhabitable planet in a timely fashion. Let's also recall that it has to lug all the materials necessary to set up a colony (prefab housing, water processing equipment, generator equipment, farming tools, medical commodities, etc), and support a fighter compliment that is, at the absolute minimum, nearly twice the size of the SDF-1's. (and that's not counting the contents of those two massive hangar complexes located just forward of the colony bays... craft it doesn't have the luxury of displacing to another ship it's docked with)
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:If, instead, they go with a cityscape internal plan, integrating SDF-1 know-how with technology garnered from Tirol and their cityships but on a much smaller scale...maybe 100 to 150k.

Eh... unlike with the SDF-1, the Ark Angel doesn't have the luxury of displacing thousands of crew members to externally-docked ships to provide more room for accommodating the ship's habitat sectors. It's also worth noting that the SDF-1's internal city was something made in extremis, not something intended for long term space travel.
No, it doesn't have external ships grafted on. Instead, the Ark Angel-class does have the luxury of being designed from the ground up to accommodate crew and colonists, which would help make the accommodations infinitely less wasteful of space. That there's several times the internal space of the SDF-1 doesn't hurt. As for the in extremis nature of Macross City inside the SDF-1, I counter with the non-in extremis use of cityscapes within Tirolian Motherships, which could coincide with and reinforce the use of cityscape by those in the UEEF who viewed the in extremis creation a marvel of human achievement and seek to replicate it, in spirit if nothing else, for nostalgic and morale reasons. By the time of the premature launch of the Ark Angel, Tirol and the Expeditionary Force had been in close contact for a large number of years, allowing plenty of time for development and collaboration in terms of cityscape design. Cityscape is therefore not an unreasonable scenario, hence my inclusion of it, despite that not being my own preference for the internal design.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

jaymz wrote:In regards ot food.....couldn't they take page out of hte Zentraedi book adn have some kind of processed paste or "food" and supplement that witha hydroponics system of somekind? That would definitely extend any mission in reagrsd to food supplies.


Also sounds like a good way to have a mutiny. Well fed people are happy, poorly fed are very cranky. There is a reason US Navy Submarine crews are the best fed in the fleet.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

jaymz wrote:In regards ot food.....couldn't they take page out of hte Zentraedi book adn have some kind of processed paste or "food" and supplement that witha hydroponics system of somekind? That would definitely extend any mission in reagrsd to food supplies.

With the Level of Food preservation found in Robotech, Food storage isnt much of a Problem.
The Food found in "Denver" has sat there for 13-14+ years, and hadn''t spoiled, and had no rodent infestation. The Soda was still fresh...

I dont kow if the Zents used Food "Paste", since I dont remember seeing them easting beforte I see Khyron eating a Massive baguette and a huge Drumstick. Thou they were known to Have access to alcohol, since Exodore criticizes Breetis decision to use khyron because he got drunk and destroyed his own forces.....

dont forget the Space-Tuna found readily in the Robotech universe....
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Tiree »

Well if it is strictly a doubling of size from the SDF-1 to the Arkangel, you are talking about a volume increase around 8 times.

That translates to 600,000 colonists. And I am sure the space utilized by the SDF-1 was not used in the most optimal way as a ship specifically designed for this function.

I am not saying 750,000 colonists is correct. But I do believe that it should be higher than 2 or even 3 times what the SDF-1 had. And that's if the Arkangel is transformable!
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Tiree wrote:Well if it is strictly a doubling of size from the SDF-1 to the Arkangel, you are talking about a volume increase around 8 times.

That translates to 600,000 colonists. And I am sure the space utilized by the SDF-1 was not used in the most optimal way as a ship specifically designed for this function.

I am not saying 750,000 colonists is correct. But I do believe that it should be higher than 2 or even 3 times what the SDF-1 had. And that's if the Arkangel is transformable!
and unlike the SDF-1, the Ark-angels median Highteth runs almost the entire lenght of its hull... and is taller then SDF-3 at it tallest point...
I think 750K is high, but not impossible, since it is a Purpose built ship... not some Ad-hoc colonly ship.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Zor Disciple wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:[...] but here they can't? :?:

In a word... yes. Unlike the Ark Angel, which has to cram everything into the same interior space and carry food and fuel stores for long-term space exploration, the SDF-1 wasn't set up to be a long-term space colonization ship. It wasn't carrying large quantities of food or other supplies vital to constructing a permanent colony on another planet. They were also able to do something the Ark Angel's crew couldn't... displace a large portion of the mecha compliment to another ship.


A purpose built colony ship would be less effective at carrying colonist than a ship not built with colonists in mind? :?

I kinda wonder the same logic there... All of the Same interior problems the Ark-Angel is claimed to have wiht its Design, the SDF-1 had in spades... it has not 1 gun, but 2 massive booms that took over 1/3 of the ships lenght.
massive engines in the Rear...
all on a Frame WAY smaller then the Ark-Angel.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Zor Disciple wrote:What kind colonizing are they doing? There is a difference between:

“Hey we found a place, let’s pack of the colonist and head there!”
which is the Intelligent way to Do colonies...

“Let’s pack up some people and just wander around blindly looking for a place.”
Which is how morons would explore space...

With the Acess to the Zentradie and the Masters by 2044.... They should have a good idea of the nearby systems, and a list of a few habitable planets.

and Why were they Building Colony ships in 2044? to move more people off earth? to further expand colonies already established?
I dont think it was to move people off earth, snce they planned to murder a whole bunch of them wiht the Neutron-s missiles.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Zor Disciple wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:
Zor Disciple wrote:What kind colonizing are they doing? There is a difference between:

“Hey we found a place, let’s pack of the colonist and head there!”
which is the Intelligent way to Do colonies...

“Let’s pack up some people and just wander around blindly looking for a place.”
Which is how morons would explore space...

With the Acess to the Zentradie and the Masters by 2044.... They should have a good idea of the nearby systems, and a list of a few habitable planets.

and Why were they Building Colony ships in 2044? to move more people off earth? to further expand colonies already established?
I dont think it was to move people off earth, snce they planned to murder a whole bunch of them wiht the Neutron-s missiles.


Do we know when they were being built? (the colony ships)
in RTSC, the Ark-angel was nearing completion of Construction, they had yet to install the Shadow devices, and the Synchro-canon... so it was part of a new wave of colony ships.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Zor Disciple wrote: But it is a refit, correct?

to be honest... I cant remember the exact dialog... TSC was so horrid i can stomach more of the Macross saga then i can Tommy's horrible job with TSC.
but IIRC, Louie said it was under construction... so possibly not a re-fit.
the only Colony Ships they re-fitted were the Neutron-S Missiles... which they wanted to Murder Humanity's birth place with.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Sgt Anjay wrote:Instead, the Ark Angel-class does have the luxury of being designed from the ground up to accommodate crew and colonists, which would help make the accommodations infinitely less wasteful of space.

Granted, but it still has a limited internal volume... a not-inconsiderable portion of which will need to be given over to supplies for feeding the colonists, maintaining the ship and its crew, and building the colony itself when they get where they're going.



Sgt Anjay wrote:Cityscape is therefore not an unreasonable scenario, hence my inclusion of it, despite that not being my own preference for the internal design.

Frankly, I think a conventional cityscape would've been indispensable for a long-term colony mission. It would go a long way towards maintaining the psychological security of the ship's civilian population during their long voyage in space.



Tiree wrote:Well if it is strictly a doubling of size from the SDF-1 to the Arkangel, you are talking about a volume increase around 8 times.

It isn't... and I'm still kind of surprised at everyone bandying around the SDF-1 as though it were a viable example of a long-term space colony ship's population, when it was neither a colony ship nor capable of sustaining its population in a long-term scenario (hence pillaging Macross island, Mars Base Sara, and then taking on new supplies on Earth).



Zor Disciple wrote:A purpose built colony ship would be less effective at carrying colonist than a ship not built with colonists in mind? :?

A purpose-built colony ship would be more effective at sustaining a smaller population for a prolonged mission than a hastily improved habitat system inside a warship. Sheer carrying capacity IS NOT effectiveness in a colony ship, the ability to sustain that population for a long period of time and carry the supplies to help them successfully establish a colony is. Unless they know exactly where they're going and can get there in a big hurry, packing the ship to the rafters is not going to do them any favors... nobody wants to live in an environment where the population density makes Tokyo look practically rural by comparison, and that's exactly what you'd get by cramming hundreds of thousands of people into a ship that's barely two kilometers long.




Zor Disciple wrote:But it is a refit, correct?

No, the Ark Angel-class is brand new as of 2044... so new, in fact, that the Ark Angel was the only ship of its class complete enough to fly when Vince Grant and the crew of the Icarus boosted it from Space Station Liberty because its shadow technology systems hadn't been installed yet.

Insofar as where the colonists are coming from... who knows? Certainly not Earth, since it was under the Invid occupation at the time. The only other (known) human settlements at the time (in canon RT) were Moon Base ALUCE, the outer solar system colonies, and the big REF base on Tirol.



Colonel Wolfe wrote:which is the Intelligent way to Do colonies...

Except that it's incredibly inefficient, because then you have to send out exploratory fleets every which way before you can even launch a colonization program... a horribly bad idea considering how protoculture-intensive long distance fold travel apparently is and how rare and hard to procure protoculture fuel is. It just gets worse when you factor in the problem of the REF apparently not having the ships to spare when they were busy throwing them at the Invid Regent and Regess to hilariously tragic effect.

Mind you, there's no indication of any such fleets being launched, and every inhabitable planet encountered in canon and pseudocanon RT stories has already had another sentient species living on it... given the lengths Tommy Yune has already gone to to Macross-ize Robotech in RTSC and the new RPG, it's a safe bet he intended for these ships to be used in Macross-style space colonization. Unless they have some sort of hereforeto unseen terraforming technology, they're stuck looking around for human compatible planets that don't already have someone else living there... and that's kind of a tall order. :lol:
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:which is the Intelligent way to Do colonies...

Except that it's incredibly inefficient, because then you have to send out exploratory fleets every which way before you can even launch a colonization program... a horribly bad idea considering how protoculture-intensive long distance fold travel apparently is and how rare and hard to procure protoculture fuel is. It just gets worse when you factor in the problem of the REF apparently not having the ships to spare when they were busy throwing them at the Invid Regent and Regess to hilariously tragic effect.

being the SDF-3 had a working Matrix on it, and they had access to make new Protoculture. since the REF by 2044 were quite adept at space travel. and had Access to the Tirolian and Zentradie's information on the local universe.
in a round about way, the Fact the Number of Colonists carried by a Ark-Angel class ship is so high would lend its self to they had Destinations in mind.
not some Long wondering through the Galaxy like a stupid lost dog until we happen to find a "M" class planet that maybe we could live on... if were lucky...

I mean it is more efficient to Send 1 Garfish to explore and find a planet, or send a Fleet of Ships to wander around, until they happen to find a place to Live.
I mean in Macross-F they are recycling dead bodies for food and what-not... kinda makes me thing tke wander around looking for problems isnt a good Idea.

Mind you, there's no indication of any such fleets being launched
and why would there be? thats assuming they need to search for places? there is so little information it is all speculation.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Colonel Wolfe wrote:being the SDF-3 had a working Matrix on it, and they had access to make new Protoculture.

Let's be quite upfront about this... the SDF-3 had THE ONLY working matrix, which is why they're so desperate to find the bloody thing. Without it, they can't produce more protoculture. As stated in RTSC, they've only got enough to operate their forces for another year unless they can recover the SDF-3. That's not conducive to long-range fold travel of any kind, let alone a large-scale colonization operation... especially if it needs to have an advance fleet to discover inhabitable planets before a ship can be dispatched.



Colonel Wolfe wrote:since the REF by 2044 were quite adept at space travel. and had Access to the Tirolian and Zentradie's information on the local universe.

"Quite adept" is a funny way of putting it, since they seemed to be rather averse to sending more than one or two ships to do even the most vital of tasks. You'd think after thirty years mucking around in space, they'd have realized by now that it's kind of a big place... though since the Pioneer mission fleet only went to a handful of inhabited systems, I have to wonder how you think they have a ton of information on the local universe. Seems like an unfounded guess to me.



Colonel Wolfe wrote:in a round about way, the Fact the Number of Colonists carried by a Ark-Angel class ship is so high would lend its self to they had Destinations in mind.

Now there's a wild guess... circumstances established in canon sources would seem to rule that idea out, or at least make it very unlikely... fuel shortages and all.



Colonel Wolfe wrote:I mean in Macross-F they are recycling dead bodies for food and what-not... kinda makes me thing tke wander around looking for problems isnt a good Idea.

Um... that's no different from living on a planet. Dead things are broken down and become nutrients for plants, and all the rest of that cycle of life stuff. The only difference between what happens on a planet and what happens on a 5th Generation bioplant colony ship in the main Macross continuity is that the bioplant ship uses technology to speed things up a bit. You're giving a rather heavily distorted view of the long-term colonization missions from Macross to try to discredit the far more likely scenario that they'd have to look for the planet they settle on instead of having a magic list of conveniently uninhabited planets for them to settle on.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:being the SDF-3 had a working Matrix on it, and they had access to make new Protoculture.

Let's be quite upfront about this... the SDF-3 had THE ONLY working matrix, which is why they're so desperate to find the bloody thing. Without it, they can't produce more protoculture. As stated in RTSC, they've only got enough to operate their forces for another year unless they can recover the SDF-3. That's not conducive to long-range fold travel of any kind, let alone a large-scale colonization operation... especially if it needs to have an advance fleet to discover inhabitable planets before a ship can be dispatched.
so your saying the Planned, set up and nearly constructed a Ark-angel in the days or weeks since the SDF-3 was lost? (12-14 Days by the Rt.com timeline)
or was the Ark-angel planned, and started being built while the SDF-3 was around, and had the Protoculture matrix?




"Quite adept" is a funny way of putting it, since they seemed to be rather averse to sending more than one or two ships to do even the most vital of tasks. You'd think after thirty years mucking around in space, they'd have realized by now that it's kind of a big place... though since the Pioneer mission fleet only went to a handful of inhabited systems, I have to wonder how you think they have a ton of information on the local universe. Seems like an unfounded guess to me.
so Their Allies the Tirolians and the Zentradie who have an expansive range of travel (and apprently the Masters had an Intersteller empire)... the Humans may not have Gottne any information fomr them?



Now there's a wild guess... circumstances established in canon sources would seem to rule that idea out, or at least make it very unlikely... fuel shortages and all.
I dont think Fuel Sortages were an Issue when they Planned the Ark-Angel... Factors after the Fact can Alter what was Planned... IE, there was no Sortage when they started building the ships. The SDF-3 and its Matrix have only been missing a week or 2? 3 at the most? (12-14 days by the rt.com timeline)



[quote] You're giving a rather heavily distorted view of the long-term colonization missions from Macross to try to discredit the far more likely scenario that they'd have to look for the planet they settle on instead of having a magic list of conveniently uninhabited planets for them to settle on.[/quoteI respect you as a source for "Macross", but I honestly Think You're pre-determined opinion on the subject makes an objective stance on the Ark-angel impossible.
Robotech's version of the Universe has humanity befreinding 2 diffrent alien races, who have vastly more expeince and exploration in Space.

in Macross they Wander around, since the Roaming hordes of Zetran are waiting to Kill everyone. so its a good Idea to arm a huge Fleet, and wander haphazardly like a lost child.
in Robotech, the Majority of Zents are Gone, and by 2044, they have defeated the Masters on Earth, and Allied with the Remaining Masters on Earth.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Sgt Anjay »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:Instead, the Ark Angel-class does have the luxury of being designed from the ground up to accommodate crew and colonists, which would help make the accommodations infinitely less wasteful of space.

Granted, but it still has a limited internal volume... a not-inconsiderable portion of which will need to be given over to supplies for feeding the colonists, maintaining the ship and its crew, and building the colony itself when they get where they're going.
The Ark Angel carrying everything by itself is predicated on there not being tenders, or freighters, or escorts, or ships capable of going foraging. With a fleet to tend it, it would only need storage for a much more limited period of time. At any rate, the need for storage space is already factored in to the numbers I gave above.



Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:Cityscape is therefore not an unreasonable scenario, hence my inclusion of it, despite that not being my own preference for the internal design.

Frankly, I think a conventional cityscape would've been indispensable for a long-term colony mission. It would go a long way towards maintaining the psychological security of the ship's civilian population during their long voyage in space.
Not surprising from a Macross fan; the visuals of those cityscape in their domes sailing on the sea of stars is really compelling, and for the most part Macross has a tradition of meticulous verisimilitude.

But I disagree; decks laid out with plentiful and varied recreation areas and parks, tall enough for mecha in the main thoroughfares and public areas and lit by EVE, and possibly even some sort of pseudo-city "neighborhood and block" organization would be plenty without the hideous amounts of empty or inefficient space in a true cityscape. It's not less than most city folk have anyway, and certainly not less than they experience day-to-day.

Also, these aren't exactly civilians as we know them today. First the Global War, then the sky falls for huge numbers of people during the Rain of Death, followed by the fall of the world as we know it and the rise of a neo-feudal society. Out of those survivors, these people sign up to leave everything they've ever known and the celestial sphere of their birth (assuming they weren't "born in deep space on a Robotech ship" to begin with), to trek into the unknown on a ship. Again: not your normal civilian, and someone going in knowing what they're getting.

Will a true cityscape make that easier? Assuming they were from a city to begin with and so are comfortable in them, sure, it'd probably help. Its an interesting and compelling idea, certainly. But is it vital enough that you have to do that for long-term missions at the cost of tremendous efficiency? No, I don't think so, if for no other reason that to me assuming it does invalidates most or at least many depictions of permanent space-stations, bunker civilizations, underground civilizations, hideaways, havens, some arcology-type scenarios, and other similar phenomena in a lot of the fiction I've enjoyed.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by taalismn »

I'd presume that the Human colonization efforts would learn something from the Masters' logistical handing of their Zentraedi legions....A full-sized Zentraedi takes a LOT of nourishment to keep going at combat peak, so recycling dead bodies aside (not always possible when you're losing corpses into the deeps of space), the Masters probably gave the Zentreadi ships some limited ability to make their own CHON(Carbon-Hydrogen-Oxygen-Nitrogen) basic foodstuffs from ingathered deep space ice and materials to supplement the massive food tanks aboard(so even if the ammo supply ships are late, the troops aren't going to starve while waiting). Certainly Factory Satellites would have this capability, making them the 'breadbaskets' of the Zentraedi armadas.
Even though similar foodstuffs scaled to the human digestive system(a haystack is Zentraedi dietary fiber) would hardly be palatable without some jiggering with the recipes, and one wouldn;'t want to make a steady diet of the stuff(unless they were courting mutiny), the technology does allow colony ships to 'live off the land' until more conventional agriculture is established.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

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Emperor Ryu wrote:
WildWalker wrote:If I'm understanding the numbers from the Mars Direct project you are looking at around 2.6 kg of consumables per day because of recycling. That comes out to just shy of 1 metric ton of consumable per person per year. Call it 1mt/person per year.

That means for 100,000 people for 1 year you'd need 365,000mt of consumables per year or about the mass of 3-4 modern aircraft carriers.


But, isn't there a difference between the Mars Direct and the Ark Angel Ship, in terms of technology being employed here?

The differences in technology really don't matter much. In either case they need to provide certain minimums per each crew member. Air and Water can be recycled but unless the system is 100% efficient, extra will need to be brought along to handle loss.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:its apparent that the official stats for the Archangels leave much to be desired. Most are in agreement that 750,000 colonists is too high and therefore unrealistic. However, I think a number would also agree that 75,000 is too low. So, let's put our heads together and see if we can actually arrive at something that is a little more reasonable.

Query. Do they state how the colonists live onboard the ship? Because the thought occurred to me that if the colonists are put in suspended animation for the voyage you can get alot more in the ship and make the life support situation easier to manage.

Now off hand the only place I recall Stasis tech even mentioned in Robotech is 1E RPG w/regard to the Zentreadi ships (and factory) and Zor's original mission to Optera in the Novels. If the Zentreadi still have stasis tech like in the 1E RPG it is possible that technology was transfered for the human colonization effort.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Sgt Anjay »

The Zentraedi are still given stasis tech. Though even if they weren't, we see the Robotech Masters use stasis tech, and by the time the Ark Angels were being built, humans had been in contact with Tirol a significant period of time. Mass stasis is about the only way I could see anything anywhere near the book numbers make sense.

However useful it is, though, humans aren't ever seen using it. Moreover, when SS Liberty is evacuated into the Ark Angel, there's no mention that everyone is going into stasis, nor is stasis mentioned in the text for it in the book.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

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Sgt Anjay wrote:The Zentraedi are still given stasis tech. Though even if they weren't, we see the Robotech Masters use stasis tech, and by the time the Ark Angels were being built, humans had been in contact with Tirol a significant period of time. Mass stasis is about the only way I could see anything anywhere near the book numbers make sense.

However useful it is, though, humans aren't ever seen using it. Moreover, when SS Liberty is evacuated into the Ark Angel, there's no mention that everyone is going into stasis, nor is stasis mentioned in the text for it in the book.

I recall the Masters and (mabe) the Invid used Stasis tech now, but I was thinking more along the lines of Zentreadi and Terrans at the time when colonization began. Where is the Zentreadi statis tech example from?

The Ark Angel evacuation need not rule out stasis tech being available. There simply may not have been enough time to put people into stasis during an evacuation. The ship was mothballed IIRC, so priority may not have been given to restoring that system. No mention of it may also relate to how important it was to the plot (did we need to know they entered stasis safely or just that they are safe?). Expected duration for the trip. Etc.

The book may not mention stasis, but do they mention anything about how the colonists live once onboard? If not, then Tirol and Zentreadi tech may provide the answer to how the ships are expected to operate normally.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Colonel Wolfe wrote:so your saying the Planned, set up and nearly constructed a Ark-angel in the days or weeks since the SDF-3 was lost? (12-14 Days by the Rt.com timeline)
or was the Ark-angel planned, and started being built while the SDF-3 was around, and had the Protoculture matrix?

Neither one, actually... this business about the SDF-3 being "missing" is horribly inconsistent at best. I'm sure you'll agree that it seems a trifle odd for the REF to throw its one means of producing the exotic fuel source their entire military depends on into harm's way. Of course, if we're applying common sense then run into other problems... like where they're getting all these colonists from, or why they were thick enough to base their entire military around this exotic and apparently impossible-to-produce power source.



Colonel Wolfe wrote:so Their Allies the Tirolians and the Zentradie who have an expansive range of travel (and apprently the Masters had an Intersteller empire)... the Humans may not have Gottne any information fomr them?

Who says the information they got was any use? This isn't Star Trek, where you'll find inhabitable planets in every other star system. It might be helpful for you to read up on the Drake Equation sometime. Even if they knew where they're going, it might take them years or potentially even decades to cross the galaxy to a suitable planet.



Colonel Wolfe wrote:I dont think Fuel Sortages were an Issue when they Planned the Ark-Angel... Factors after the Fact can Alter what was Planned... IE, there was no Sortage when they started building the ships. The SDF-3 and its Matrix have only been missing a week or 2? 3 at the most? (12-14 days by the rt.com timeline)

They would be fools not to consider a fuel shortage while planning the Ark Angel-class ships... especially when they throw their one means of producing more protoculture for the entire REF into danger with cavalier disregard for its safety.



Colonel Wolfe wrote:Robotech's version of the Universe has humanity befreinding 2 diffrent alien races, who have vastly more expeince and exploration in Space.

Eh... make that "one" alien race, since Scott's remarks seem to indicate that the Zentradi went extinct or were on the verge of extinction circa 2043. Certainly the REF wasn't doing much to preserve them, since Breetai's entire Zentradi contingent was killed when Edwards backstabbed the Invid Regent. I wouldn't really call the Zentradi explorers either, since in Robotech and Macross alike, their mentality is "Go here, shoot that".



Colonel Wolfe wrote:in Macross they Wander around, since the Roaming hordes of Zetran are waiting to Kill everyone. so its a good Idea to arm a huge Fleet, and wander haphazardly like a lost child.

Again with the amusing distortions... in Macross, they send a well-armed fleet out to escort their colony ships and protect them while they search for an inhabitable planet, since Macross isn't like Star Trek either and inhabitable planets aren't exactly sitting all over the place. They send them out packing enough firepower to take down a medium-size Zentradi branch fleet, and they have the capability to perform the Minmay Attack (a tactic with an impressive track record at ending conflicts with the Zentradi on the first battle with little loss of life on either side). It's also wildly inaccurate to say they're wandering, they're following their long-range advance scouts towards likely systems for resource collection or potential colonization.



Sgt Anjay wrote:The Ark Angel carrying everything by itself is predicated on there not being tenders, or freighters, or escorts, or ships capable of going foraging.

Given the REF's track record of sending one and precisely one ship to accomplish many critical tasks, a habit they're in no danger of breaking if the leaked story treatment for RTSR is any indication, it seems like a logical assumption. One has to wonder why they would say the Angel-class were retired as unsuitable for being unable to defend themselves if the ships were accompanied by a fleet of military escorts...



Seto Kaiba wrote:But I disagree; decks laid out with plentiful and varied recreation areas and parks, tall enough for mecha in the main thoroughfares and public areas and lit by EVE, and possibly even some sort of pseudo-city "neighborhood and block" organization would be plenty without the hideous amounts of empty or inefficient space in a true cityscape.

Personally, I think you underestimate the need humans have to cling to something familiar in times of change... particularly in the case of the humans inhabiting these ships, since they already live with the reality of one (possibly two) apocalypses. It certainly did a number on Dana, as indicated in Prelude. Even if it is somewhat space-inefficient (though not as much as you indicate, for reasons I will make clear) it's a familiar atmosphere that will maintain a much-needed sense of psychological security for the colonists... and they need it far more than Macross's colonists do, since Robotech's galaxy is a fairly unfriendly place to say the least...

Now, insofar as the dome ships being space inefficient... what makes you assume that the dome's top layer is the only inhabited one? I assure you, there are others.

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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Zor Disciple wrote:I think we get it Seto...

:roll: Typical... "you don't agree with me therefore you must hate Robotech". The most common ad hominem attack in the Robotech fandom.


Zor Disciple wrote:The way Macross does it = The Awesome
The way Robotech maybe did it = The Suck

's more like:
The way Macross does it = well thought-out, believable, and spacious enough for the colonists to live comfortably and support a growing population while en route.

The way some of you are positing Robotech does it = implausible, impractical, depends on unsupportable assumptions, and utterly unsuitable for long-term habitation due to a population density that makes downtown Tokyo look downright rural... and that's not even touching on how it makes no sense in the context of the setting, but that last one's Tommy Yune's fault. :P

(Seriously, if the ship's carrying even 100,000 people in that space and we're GENEROUS about how it's proportioned, it still has a population density to top ten cities by population density... around #5, by my reckoning)
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

Okay guys, this thread is starting to go off the rails. Lets avoid ad hominems, please.

If there is going to be long term habitation on an Ark Angel, it obviously needs several large replenishment ships. Its also got to have an escort flotilla to ensure it survives the dangerous galaxy.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:If there is going to be long term habitation on an Ark Angel, it obviously needs several large replenishment ships.

Possibly... though there are problems with that idea, as illustrated below.


Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Its also got to have an escort flotilla to ensure it survives the dangerous galaxy.

But this assumption runs into the problem I've already mentioned... if an escort flotilla was a normal part of Robotech's colonization missions, why was the Angel-class scrapped for having insufficient defensive capabilities? Either they couldn't spare the ships to make up an escort flotilla (likely, since they were throwing most of their forces at the Invid with minimal success) or the ships they had weren't equal to the task... neither bodes well for the Ark Angel-class's prospects.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Sgt Anjay »

Shadowlogan: The Zentraedi are mentioned as still using stasis in the new edition of the RPG. And yeah, stasis isn't ruled out, and could explain the high numbers ascribed to that ship.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:The Ark Angel carrying everything by itself is predicated on there not being tenders, or freighters, or escorts, or ships capable of going foraging.

Given the REF's track record of sending one and precisely one ship to accomplish many critical tasks, a habit they're in no danger of breaking if the leaked story treatment for RTSR is any indication, it seems like a logical assumption. One has to wonder why they would say the Angel-class were retired as unsuitable for being unable to defend themselves if the ships were accompanied by a fleet of military escorts...
I'm sorry? Where in that did I mention military escorts? Oh, wait, I didn't, I'm very clearly talking about other ships carrying supplies and equipment, or (in the case of foraging) being able to go out and get them. And the scenario the original poster asked we operate under includes an escort fleet, and therefore that is the parameters I am operating under. Your opinion on the matter of the likelihood of escorts is irrelevant to the discussion because it is outside the bounds of the hypotheticals as previously defined.



Seto Kaiba wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:But I disagree; decks laid out with plentiful and varied recreation areas and parks, tall enough for mecha in the main thoroughfares and public areas and lit by EVE, and possibly even some sort of pseudo-city "neighborhood and block" organization would be plenty without the hideous amounts of empty or inefficient space in a true cityscape.

Personally, I think you underestimate the need humans have to cling to something familiar in times of change... particularly in the case of the humans inhabiting these ships, since they already live with the reality of one (possibly two) apocalypses. It certainly did a number on Dana, as indicated in Prelude. Even if it is somewhat space-inefficient (though not as much as you indicate, for reasons I will make clear) it's a familiar atmosphere that will maintain a much-needed sense of psychological security for the colonists... and they need it far more than Macross's colonists do, since Robotech's galaxy is a fairly unfriendly place to say the least...
Macross's galaxy is pretty damn unpleasant as well, though it does seem much less densely populated. And unless you have something to back up "you have to have cityscape or people can't handle it" besides the fact that Macross did it that way, I don't see a reason to take it as gospel. Plenty of science fiction does colonization different than Macross, and any one could be a much better example to follow; it isn't about me underestimating anything, it actually seems to be about how you can't imagine doing it any way except the way Macross did it.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Now, insofar as the dome ships being space inefficient... what makes you assume that the dome's top layer is the only inhabited one? I assure you, there are others.
(Screencaps taken from Macross Frontier: Itsuwari no Utahime Blu-Ray (1080p) and scaled down to 720p for those with low-bandwidth connections)
How very nice, its multi-level. Don't know why you assume I didn't know that. Very nice high quality screenies, though. Be that as it may, multi-level makes it more efficient than single-level, but that doesn't take away from the fact that there is a vast amount of inefficiently used space insofar as maximum carrying capacity for that volume.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Its also got to have an escort flotilla to ensure it survives the dangerous galaxy.
But this assumption runs into the problem I've already mentioned... if an escort flotilla was a normal part of Robotech's colonization missions, why was the Angel-class scrapped for having insufficient defensive capabilities? Either they couldn't spare the ships to make up an escort flotilla (likely, since they were throwing most of their forces at the Invid with minimal success) or the ships they had weren't equal to the task... neither bodes well for the Ark Angel-class's prospects.
Well, for one, you don't get to decide the rules since this isn't your hypothetical scenario. RSCF isn't stating "this is canon", or "this is how it has to be"...he clearly stated the hypothetical nature, what his assumptions were, and why he made them.

But as to your contention, they went from a ship incapable of defense which would need escort to a powerful vessel that is a threat in its own right. What may have been an escort element inadequate for a ship incapable of defense could easily be more than enough to help defend a hard target like the Ark Angel.

As to throwing forces at the Invid with "minimal success", I assume you mean the divisions sent against the Regis; the Regent had a quite difference experience against the Expeditionary Force, and up until the very end he was the one dealing with most of their forces, not her.


By the by, as to the state of things in Robotech, you seem bound and determined to minimalize, if not outright mock, their capabilities. Last I checked, humanity's two closest allies are the former rulers of a vast galactic empire, and their enforcers (who seemed non-extinct enough to be considered when the Bioroid Interceptor was designed and to populate the ranks of its pilots as shown in Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles). Along the way, they defeated the force that had been the greatest threat to that empire, and allied with a coalition of that empire's former subjects providing another group of allies.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Sgt Anjay wrote:I'm sorry? Where in that did I mention military escorts? Oh, wait, I didn't, I'm very clearly talking about other ships carrying supplies and equipment, or (in the case of foraging) being able to go out and get them.

:roll: It's not a civilian ship, so if you're going to refer to its attendant fleet as escorts then the implication is that they're military escort ships. That's rather common sense, especially since it's being taken as an article of faith (to say nothing of canon) that Robotech's galaxy is a very dangerous place. Why would the REF make a fuss over the armaments on the colony ship and then send it out with a fleet of unarmed or lightly armed escorts?



Sgt Anjay wrote:Macross's galaxy is pretty damn unpleasant as well, though it does seem much less densely populated.

That's a matter of opinion, though at least in Macross humanity doesn't have every major power in the galaxy out to exterminate them.



Sgt Anjay wrote:And unless you have something to back up "you have to have cityscape or people can't handle it" besides the fact that Macross did it that way, I don't see a reason to take it as gospel.

Every starship we see in Robotech that supports a civilian population in addition to a military contingent does so via a cityscape. Is that reason enough for you? :nh:



Sgt Anjay wrote:it isn't about me underestimating anything, it actually seems to be about how you can't imagine doing it any way except the way Macross did it.

Perhaps the moderators need to step up their enforcement here a little... IIRC there's something about "discuss the topic, not the person posting it" worked into the site's rules... something you and Zor Disciple seem all too eager to do.



Sgt Anjay wrote:but that doesn't take away from the fact that there is a vast amount of inefficiently used space insofar as maximum carrying capacity for that volume.

Yes, and you consistently ignore the population density problem. People are NOT comfortable living in environments where they're packed in like sardines. There's a limit to how efficiently you can arrange the ship's interior before it becomes claustrophobic and the population density makes living there highly uncomfortable. I'm not surprised, it's really a hard thing to understand until you've been to a heavily populated country. The problem I keep raising for packing hundreds of thousands of colonists into that ship is that even if you assume the entire interior is given over to habitat space (and it's a safe bet that it isn't) you're still giving it a population density that would make living there for any extended period profoundly uncomfortable.

Is it really that odd to think that sheer carrying capacity might not be the only concern in the Ark Angel's design? That maybe, just maybe, they wanted the colonists to get there in relative comfort rather than packing them in like cheap sardines?



Sgt Anjay wrote:By the by, as to the state of things in Robotech, you seem bound and determined to minimalize, if not outright mock, their capabilities.

Oh, I don't need to minimalize anything... Robotech's creative staff did that for me. The deterioration of military capabilities in Robotech is an artifact of its creation and the singleminded determination of those in charge to stick to OSM specs as closely as possible. Still, isn't this another case of you trying to attack the poster, not discuss the topic? I prefer to stick to canon facts wherever possible, though I recognize that so many years without any kind of official sources has left many RT fans with a marked tendency to take unsubstantiated theories as valid sources of information and contempt for the creative team's decisions as to what is and is not canon. :nh:



Sgt Anjay wrote:Last I checked, humanity's two closest allies [...] they defeated the force that had been the greatest threat to that empire, and allied with a coalition of that empire's former subjects providing another group of allies.

Calling it a defeat might be stretching things a little... the Regess up and left because she was sick of the slaughter, not because her forces had suffered a conclusive defeat. (Indeed, the dialogue in "Symphony of Light" suggests she still considered victory a possibility) The Regent wasn't really beaten by the REF either, he was caught with his pants down by someone he thought was an ally. Likewise, the Tirolans the REF allied were not, strictly speaking, the ones responsible for the "vast interstellar empire" (of half a dozen worlds)... they're the ones who were left behind by the Masters.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Sgt Anjay »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:I'm sorry? Where in that did I mention military escorts? Oh, wait, I didn't, I'm very clearly talking about other ships carrying supplies and equipment, or (in the case of foraging) being able to go out and get them.

:roll: It's not a civilian ship, so if you're going to refer to its attendant fleet as escorts then the implication is that they're military escort ships. That's rather common sense, especially since it's being taken as an article of faith (to say nothing of canon) that Robotech's galaxy is a very dangerous place. Why would the REF make a fuss over the armaments on the colony ship and then send it out with a fleet of unarmed or lightly armed escorts?
Two different issues you're conflating. I am here speaking of tenders, freighters, ships that can forage, etc. Whether or not there is also warship escort is an entirely different issue. When I said military escort, I should have said warship instead; that's actually what I meant. The Ark Angel, even if devoid of any warship escort, could still be convoying with tenders, freighters, ships that can forage, etc. There is, in other words, no reason why it would have to carry absolutely everything it needs by itself. If it does or doesn't have warship escort is irrelevant to that point.



Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:Macross's galaxy is pretty damn unpleasant as well, though it does seem much less densely populated.

That's a matter of opinion, though at least in Macross humanity doesn't have every major power in the galaxy out to exterminate them.
What's a matter of opinion? What it was unpleasant? I'd call a galaxy with billions of hostile Zentradi pretty unpleasant. That it was less densely populated? The number of canon sentient species in Robotech is larger than it is in Macross, certainly. And what major power has humanity encountered in Macross that humanity hasn't warred with?



Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:And unless you have something to back up "you have to have cityscape or people can't handle it" besides the fact that Macross did it that way, I don't see a reason to take it as gospel.

Every starship we see in Robotech that supports a civilian population in addition to a military contingent does so via a cityscape. Is that reason enough for you? :nh:
That, actually, is a good point. Its one of the reasons I included the cityscape scenario in my post. If, though, you're trying to tell me that it can only be done with a cityscape, that I don't agree with.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:it isn't about me underestimating anything, it actually seems to be about how you can't imagine doing it any way except the way Macross did it.

Perhaps the moderators need to step up their enforcement here a little... IIRC there's something about "discuss the topic, not the person posting it" worked into the site's rules... something you and Zor Disciple seem all too eager to do.
Is that so? You do realize that its pretty evident that statement of mine is a response to you claiming that I'm "underestimating", meaning that you were discussing me, and not the topic. It would be even more evident if you didn't edit me quite so severely, but the fact that that's a response and not an unprovoked attack is still obvious.



Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:but that doesn't take away from the fact that there is a vast amount of inefficiently used space insofar as maximum carrying capacity for that volume.

Yes, and you consistently ignore the population density problem. People are NOT comfortable living in environments where they're packed in like sardines. There's a limit to how efficiently you can arrange the ship's interior before it becomes claustrophobic and the population density makes living there highly uncomfortable. I'm not surprised, it's really a hard thing to understand until you've been to a heavily populated country. The problem I keep raising for packing hundreds of thousands of colonists into that ship is that even if you assume the entire interior is given over to habitat space (and it's a safe bet that it isn't) you're still giving it a population density that would make living there for any extended period profoundly uncomfortable.
So now I'm not just underestimating, I'm ignoring, and you are suddenly an expert on where and how I've lived? As well as the psychological needs of densely packed populations, of course. Again, the way Macross does it is not the only way to do it, nor is it the only way even in the Science Fiction genre. A densely packed city slum here on 21st century Earth, and passengers on a ship, or space station, or arcology, or similar structure, with copious amenities built by highly advanced technologies are not the same thing.


Seto Kaiba wrote:Is it really that odd to think that sheer carrying capacity might not be the only concern in the Ark Angel's design? That maybe, just maybe, they wanted the colonists to get there in relative comfort rather than packing them in like cheap sardines?
Cheap sardines? In what way does tall, wide thoroughfares, EVE skies, copious recreational amenities to include greenery resemble being packed like cheap sardines? Its not a choice between cheap sardines and a full-on city; there's median measure available that provide for the people without wasting the amount of space a cityscape does. Not that I have EVER said a cityscape was out of the question, as you can read in my first post in this thread.



Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:By the by, as to the state of things in Robotech, you seem bound and determined to minimalize, if not outright mock, their capabilities.

Oh, I don't need to minimalize anything... Robotech's creative staff did that for me. The deterioration of military capabilities in Robotech is an artifact of its creation and the singleminded determination of those in charge to stick to OSM specs as closely as possible. Still, isn't this another case of you trying to attack the poster, not discuss the topic? I prefer to stick to canon facts wherever possible, though I recognize that so many years without any kind of official sources has left many RT fans with a marked tendency to take unsubstantiated theories as valid sources of information and contempt for the creative team's decisions as to what is and is not canon. :nh:
Considering the fact that you repeatedly debate against what can be seen in Robotech with theories you make up out of whole cloth, I find your claiming of some sort of high ground dubious. I also find telling that you very clearly do considering the capabilities of Robotech low, though you are convinced it is because of the creative team rather than your interpretations. Pointing out what you are doing isn't an attack, its pointing out what you are doing. Robotech can't do that, Robotech can't do this, Robotech isn't capable of this, look at how poor they are, how at how little there is, look at how they don't this or that or the other. Your positions are beginning to boil down to this with a monotonous regularity.

And I'm sorry, but there is plenty of precedence in the world of fiction for Author Fiat and Word of God to not have the final say. That may be how most sci-fi fandoms are run, but frankly considering how long Robotech was left drifting on its own inertia, such as it was, there's nothing wrong with Robotech's fans choosing another path. "Death of the Author", as its called, is neither new, nor some dirty secret, nor something to inherently despise.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:Last I checked, humanity's two closest allies [...] they defeated the force that had been the greatest threat to that empire, and allied with a coalition of that empire's former subjects providing another group of allies.

Calling it a defeat might be stretching things a little... the Regess up and left because she was sick of the slaughter, not because her forces had suffered a conclusive defeat. (Indeed, the dialogue in "Symphony of Light" suggests she still considered victory a possibility) The Regent wasn't really beaten by the REF either, he was caught with his pants down by someone he thought was an ally. Likewise, the Tirolans the REF allied were not, strictly speaking, the ones responsible for the "vast interstellar empire" (of half a dozen worlds)... they're the ones who were left behind by the Masters.
Wow. For one, the Regis wasn't the force that was the greatest threat to the empire, the Regent was. Earth wasn't part of the empire, and that's what the Regis was a threat to. The current canon version of the Regent's death happened while he was in hand-to-hand with Breetai as Bioroid Interceptors crashed into his inner sanctum and laid waste to all they surveyed. The one who betrayed the Regent? An Expeditionary Force officer; sure, he betrayed the Expeditionary Force as well, but it remains that the EF and its personnel clearly had the Regent and his forces down on the mat. The Master's empire only being a half-dozen worlds contradicts...well, the fact that the Masters are said to have a vast empire, patrolled by billions of Zentraedi warriors. I have no idea where you got that from, but it does fall in line with the pattern of minimization that seems your pogrom.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

Seto Kaiba wrote:I'm sure you'll agree that it seems a trifle odd for the REF to throw its one means of producing the exotic fuel source their entire military depends on into harm's way.


Okay, we're talking about Tommy Yune. I would rather not have to deal with his ridiculous tripe in this thread.

Even if they knew where they're going, it might take them years or potentially even decades to cross the galaxy to a suitable planet.


I also imagine there were more than a few formerly habitable planets that got caught in the crossfire between the Robotech Masters and DoZ.

They would be fools not to consider a fuel shortage while planning the Ark Angel-class ships... especially when they throw their one means of producing more protoculture for the entire REF into danger with cavalier disregard for its safety.


I quote:

ROBOTomHG: I'm still pissed off about Tommy's assertion that Leonard and Edwards were in anti-government cahoots
General Leonard: yea..me too
ROBOTomHG: but I don't think Tommy has met a plothole he didn't think was unimportant

As I said earlier, lets not deal with Tommy's ridiculous tripe.

in Macross, they send a well-armed fleet out to escort their colony ships and protect them while they search for an inhabitable planet


Which is how they would have had to do it in Robotech. There is no reason, other than Tommy Logic, to make the assumption that the Angel-class didn't have Pioneer Mission escorts to their destinations while the latter searched for the homeworld of the Robotech Masters.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Okay, we're talking about Tommy Yune. I would rather not have to deal with his ridiculous tripe in this thread.

Ah, yes... I figured I'd be hearing that sooner or later. If we're going to discuss or theorize about a class of ships created for Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, eventually we're going to have to broach the uncomfortable topic of Tommy Yune. I know full well you have no use for the man, and you know I don't either. Still, the setting materials that shat the Ark Angel into being can't really be ignored if we're going to speculate about the UEEF's intentions for the Ark Angel-class.



Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Which is how they would have had to do it in Robotech. There is no reason, other than Tommy Logic, to make the assumption that the Angel-class didn't have Pioneer Mission escorts to their destinations while the latter searched for the homeworld of the Robotech Masters.

That's a fun term for it... "Tommy logic". It would make sense for them to send a decently large escort fleet to protect the ship, though I doubt the UEEF could spare many ships while facing a war on two fronts with the Invid. Still, you and I both know that "Tommy logic" and common sense seldom cross paths. I wouldn't put it past them to send the colony ships out alone, the same way they sent one and only one ship for every other vital operation in that entire timeframe. :roll:



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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

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No hurry on my account :lol:
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

Modern Marvels had an episode on today about mega-meals. They said how much food an Ohio Class Submarine takes for a four month mission to feed a crew of 160.

90,000lbs Dry Goods
30,000lbs Frozen Goods
8,000lbs Fresh Goods

That comes out to 800lbs per crew member or a little over 6lbs a day. For the artbook listed crew that means about 4.5 million pounds a day. To use a famous quote "We are going to need a bigger boat."
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

Shawn Merrow wrote:Modern Marvels had an episode on today about mega-meals. They said how much food an Ohio Class Submarine takes for a four month mission to feed a crew of 160.

90,000lbs Dry Goods
30,000lbs Frozen Goods
8,000lbs Fresh Goods

That comes out to 800lbs per crew member or a little over 6lbs a day. For the artbook listed crew that means about 4.5 million pounds a day. To use a famous quote "We are going to need a bigger boat."


Ah, now this is what I'm talking about. Its a good exercise in logistics and it helps to have hard numbers to gauge as a general rule of thumb. This is why I never thought the idea that a colony ship would simply leave alone, unsupported, made sense. At the very least they're going to need a dozen replenishment ships of good size (Seron Thoun-class Zentraedi Cruiser from The Sentinels, perhaps?) in addition to a warship escort flotilla (Tristar's etc).
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

Glad you liked it, been keeping an eye out for that episode since this thread started. We got lucky that it did not take very long.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Beatmeclever »

Two words: Micronization Technology.

They are able to fit 750,000 people and 4.5 million pounds/day of goods aboard the Angel-Class because the entire mess has been micronized so that the average height of a man or European descent is only 3/4 of an inch. :))
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Daeglan »

I have to point out that to start a colony you don't need anywhere near 100K people. heck the 25k on Macross is a great colony size.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:Modern Marvels had an episode on today about mega-meals. They said how much food an Ohio Class Submarine takes for a four month mission to feed a crew of 160.

90,000lbs Dry Goods
30,000lbs Frozen Goods
8,000lbs Fresh Goods

That comes out to 800lbs per crew member or a little over 6lbs a day. For the artbook listed crew that means about 4.5 million pounds a day. To use a famous quote "We are going to need a bigger boat."


Ah, now this is what I'm talking about. Its a good exercise in logistics and it helps to have hard numbers to gauge as a general rule of thumb. This is why I never thought the idea that a colony ship would simply leave alone, unsupported, made sense. At the very least they're going to need a dozen replenishment ships of good size (Seron Thoun-class Zentraedi Cruiser from The Sentinels, perhaps?) in addition to a warship escort flotilla (Tristar's etc).

Here is something I found awhile back that has to say on Consumables for space flight (they reference a Nasa document).

http://www.asi.org/adb/04/03/05/consuma ... ction.html

Between air, water, and food you need to provide 27.98kg per person per day in an open loop life support system. In a closed loop you can recycle the water and air.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Sgt Anjay wrote:No hurry on my account :lol:

Sorry 'bout that... it seems like no matter how quickly I get done with each translation, the queue of Macross publications waiting for me never shrinks. There's been a lot of noise about the Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Space Wing book that just came out, so a couple folks prevailed upon me to have a look at bits for the upgraded gunpod and the VF-1's SLEP variants.






Sgt Anjay wrote:When I said military escort, I should have said warship instead;

That would've made your meaning clearer, yes... my misinterpretation then.



Sgt Anjay wrote:What's a matter of opinion? What it was unpleasant? I'd call a galaxy with billions of hostile Zentradi pretty unpleasant.

"Hostile" isn't entirely accurate... and in most cases they're not much of a threat once they endure a Minmay Attack. In some cases, they've even backed off of their own accord after discovering humanity is a miclone species possessing culture and concluding that they might be the Protoculture.



Sgt Anjay wrote:That, actually, is a good point. Its one of the reasons I included the cityscape scenario in my post. If, though, you're trying to tell me that it can only be done with a cityscape, that I don't agree with.

I'm sure we agree that in Robotech, the Robotech Masters are pretty much the final "expert opinion" on anything relating to robotechnology and space travel. They keep their civilian populations in cityscapes during interstellar travel... fairly spacious areas with low population densities. They're the experts, and they do it that way... with a mindset like theirs, I can't imagine them doing something inefficient without a VERY good reason. Now, assuming the REF is benefiting from their experience, why wouldn't the follow the advice of the experts who've been doing it for half a million years?





Sgt Anjay wrote:A densely packed city slum here on 21st century Earth, and passengers on a ship, or space station, or arcology, or similar structure, with copious amenities built by highly advanced technologies are not the same thing.

But there's precious little difference when there's barely room to swing an arm and you end up packed into a press that makes the Tokyo train system look roomy whenever you leave your house/apartment/quarters.




Seto Kaiba wrote:And I'm sorry, but there is plenty of precedence in the world of fiction for Author Fiat and Word of God to not have the final say. That may be how most sci-fi fandoms are run, but frankly considering how long Robotech was left drifting on its own inertia, such as it was, there's nothing wrong with Robotech's fans choosing another path. "Death of the Author", as its called, is neither new, nor some dirty secret, nor something to inherently despise.

I would agree with you... if Robotech was still drifting the way it was in the 90's. The franchise might be limping along with all the blistering speed of a paraplegic tortoise, but the Robotech "brand" is moving under its own power and has been since 2001. There's no longer any need for, or justification to, fall back on this "personal canon" garbage. We have a rebooted continuity and a creative director far more successful than Carl Macek ever was at getting new Robotech titles released. You might not like it, and I know I sure as hell don't, but it is what it is.



Shawn Merrow wrote:That comes out to 800lbs per crew member or a little over 6lbs a day. For the artbook listed crew that means about 4.5 million pounds a day. To use a famous quote "We are going to need a bigger boat."

Exactly... any way you shake it, they're either gonna need a massive amount of stored food and water, or a MASSIVE recycling system to process it all on a daily basis and maintain the closed-loop system. Mind you, that's assuming the recycling system has better than perfect efficiency, since you're not going to get all the nutrient value back when you reconstitute all your food from waste... unless of course you have pattern replication technology along the lines of Star Trek's replicator or Transmetropolitan's "maker".

Either way, it's a massive, bulky mess cutting into the ship's crew carrying capacity and largely dictating what the maximum sustainable crew size is.



Beatmeclever wrote:They are able to fit 750,000 people and 4.5 million pounds/day of goods aboard the Angel-Class because the entire mess has been micronized so that the average height of a man or European descent is only 3/4 of an inch. :))

lol! That might explain it... if only there were precedent for it in RT, that'd be a huge coup for their colony program. :lol:



Daeglan wrote:I have to point out that to start a colony you don't need anywhere near 100K people. heck the 25k on Macross is a great colony size.

's what I've been saying, and at that population size you can achieve a relatively low and reasonable urban population density and still have enough room to store everything you'd need to maintain the ship's hundreds of Alpha fighters, build a colony, etc. Mind you, the Macross in Macross only carried that many people in the short term because it was an emergency (and there were 10,000 fewer people than in the RT version)... the normal total population on the mass-produced Macross-class ships was only 10,000, counting the ship's crew.

Mind you, it still seems a bit inefficient compared to Macross's... since they'd have to build a whole separate settlement on the planet's surface after finding a planet instead of just plunking the colony ship down and using it as a prefabricated city with all the utilities and amenities of home already in place
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

Zor Disciple wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:Modern Marvels had an episode on today about mega-meals. They said how much food an Ohio Class Submarine takes for a four month mission to feed a crew of 160.

90,000lbs Dry Goods
30,000lbs Frozen Goods
8,000lbs Fresh Goods

That comes out to 800lbs per crew member or a little over 6lbs a day. For the artbook listed crew that means about 4.5 million pounds a day. To use a famous quote "We are going to need a bigger boat."


Realize that an Ohio is just 170m long, 13m wide, height 15m. The colony vessel is 2.57km/2.14km. I don't see an official width unfortunately. Someone earlier postulated 500m. Same with height, but let's say it is as tall as the SDF1 at 312m.

33,150 meters cubed for the Ohio.
400,920,000 meters cubed for the RT vessel.

This means the Ark Angel would roughly have the same internal space as 12,094 Ohio subs. At 160 crew per sub that be 1,935,040 crew.


Also need storage for water and other supplies (clothes, hygiene, medical, spare parts, etc.). Will need actual quarters as they will want more then just a bunk. Also need full hospitals, galleys and anything else you would have in a city of that size. That does not even count all the space dedicated for ship systems (engines, life support, power system, etc.). In the case of the Ohio, space is so limited they have to store food all over the sub in any free space they can find.
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Re: Fixing the Archangel-class Colony Fortress

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Zor Disciple wrote:[...] The colony vessel is 2.57km/2.14km. I don't see an official width unfortunately. Someone earlier postulated 500m. Same with height, but let's say it is as tall as the SDF1 at 312m.

Remember, the 2,570m figure counts the large protruding antennae on the prow and the big fins around the ship's engines. The 2,140m figure is the actual length of the ship's hull, and that includes the tapered prow with the built-in (massive) synchro cannon, the various sets of engines, etc. The ship's height is not constant across its length either, so for accuracy's sake I pulled the image from the official size comparison.

The average exterior hull height of the rear 2/3 of the ship is 270m, and the synchro cannon section is approximately 370m. The approximate width is ~600m at maximum cross-section, tapered inwards and narrowing towards the prow. Excluding the sections containing the big hangars, the main engines, large maneuvering thrusters, and the synchro cannon, the ship's usable internal volume for civilian habitation is ~1,100m long, ~270m high, and ~500m wide, or roughly 148,500,000m cubed. In terms of horizontal space, you've got about .55 square kilometers and 270m of altitude to work with.

Just for giggles, let's assume the target is a population density roughly equal to that of the Tokyo metropolitan area. That gives us enough space for approximately 3,216 people in a single city tier. Playing it conservatively, the Macross got around 4 tiers of cityscape into around 160m of vertical space, so the Ark Angel's habitat section would have room for, say, about 7 tiers of unbroken cityscape. That comes out to a sustainable long-term population of ~22,512 colonists in addition to the ship's 8,500 crew. Not a far cry from my estimate of ~25,000 colonists as a reasonable figure.

Pushing it to a total population of 100,000 would give it an uncomfortably high population density of 25,974 people per square kilometer, making it the 15th most heavily populated city (by area). Getting up to 150,000 would put it at #4. Anything above 166,000 and you've gone right off the top of the charts. :lol:
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