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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:22 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Because obviously hover is a mature technology, with the hovertanks.

Now, I know the real answer-- because new generatoin was a different anime and we want to make the Silverback look like it came from the same design genesis as the cyclone.

But what in setting reason could justify this, especially given the fact that hover vehicles have it pretty easy with lots of terrain that would give a wheeled vehicle fits?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:43 am
  

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Knight

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In-Universe the desire the use of conventional wheels over hover systems (assuming they use thrust generated by moving air as opposed to magnetic/gravitational levitation):

1. Remember the Cyclone is intended to function as an emergency survival unit, and to put it into mecha probably has to be made to fit a certain volume and mass/weight allowance. The tire system might be more compact (and less massive) for storage than a hoverjet system

2. If the hoversystem uses ambient atmosphere to generate lift (by moving it), that means the hovercraft would not be able to operate on the practically speaking vacuum on the surface of the Moon (for ex). This would cut into where you could deploy such systems (mankind has driven on the surface of the Moon using wheeled vehicles)

3. Simplicity. While we are taking about a Veritech here, the wheeled system might be "simpler" in terms of mechanical implementation and even maintenance.

4. "Stealth", a wheeled vehicle is likely quieter than the hoverjet system (at least without a system to make it quieter, which might be what other vehicles use), it won't kick up a "trail" that could be potentially more visible (wheels will leave a trail to, and can kick up dust I admit but dust can be managed, and the trail would be a lot harder to spot)

5. Reliability of the technology. Hoeverjet systems that compact for the Cyclone might not be practical or have the same degree of reliability they do for larger platforms when the Cyclone was initially designed.

6. For shipboard operations (or interior facilities, etc) a hoversystem might not be ideal from a safety standpoint. You've got the hoverjet wash and intake to consider.

7. Fuel Economy. The wheeled system might be more fuel efficient than using a hover system.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:29 am
  

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Hero

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Another reason might be because the REF already fully tested hover system cyclones and found the wheeled models to have more utility. They can be found in the UEEF Marines sourcebook.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:14 am
  

Hero

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another "big" reason might be cost and materials economy.

think about it the wheels even if they are some form of "run flat" tires are likely to be pretty to extremely cheap in the sense of materials used to make them, on the other hand I suspect the "hover" systems are most likely expensive, use scarce exotic materials and other "stuff" to get them to work, tires, well lets see they likely use steel, aluminum, or some variant of magnesium for the rims, rubber of some kind (or rubber like material) and possibly some kind of metal belting (read metal wires woven through the "rubber" ) to make the wheels and tires, all simple materials and simple science to work.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:27 pm
  

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I am going to go with the gravity/atmosphere issues.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:26 pm
  

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Because that was the designs from Megazone 23.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:37 pm
  

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no, Megazone 23 was the source for "robotech the movie", which never got released. (probably a good thing.. the reworking wasn't very good and the story was dreadful and would screw up continuity something fierce)

New Generation was Genesis Climber MOSPEADA.

that said.. i always hate when someone asks a reasonable question like "why would X do this" about the setting, and people just say "because it was a different show". i mean, we know that, certainly in our world that is true. but the question that got asked was about why something was done in the setting of the show. so the fact robotech was made by rewriting and combining shows does not matter.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:11 am
  

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Chris0013 wrote:
I am going to go with the gravity/atmosphere issues.



Yeah, thinking about it, I know that even helicopters have evidently had problems in Afghanistan due to the altitude of some areas. Noiw, granted, witht he kind of power you get out of protoculture, a direct flying aerodyhne shouldn't be too difficult, but OTH, if you extrapolate that to its logical end, nothing should exist except for aerodynes loaded up with weapons, so we'll just go with this is a mecha show.

But wheels combined with jets would let you move on anything from a airless world to a heavy G dense atmosphere world, without having to do much modification. The Southern Cross, being largely based on earth, diesn't have that problem.

That might also explain why the hover tanks gradually go away-- yes, they work, but the need to modify them for different worlds made them more difficult to keep around than it was worth.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:48 pm
  

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I'll also toss out the durability factor, since Cyclones are a survival unit as much as anything else.

Bunge up a tire, patch the tire (assuming Cyclone tires aren't runflats or solid anyway). Get something lodged in the intakes (well, outtakes I suppose *lol*) of a hover system and bunge it up, however you manage to do it, and if you're out in the boonies you're pretty much screwed.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:32 am
  

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mech798 wrote:
Chris0013 wrote:
I am going to go with the gravity/atmosphere issues.



Yeah, thinking about it, I know that even helicopters have evidently had problems in Afghanistan due to the altitude of some areas. Noiw, granted, witht he kind of power you get out of protoculture, a direct flying aerodyhne shouldn't be too difficult, but OTH, if you extrapolate that to its logical end, nothing should exist except for aerodynes loaded up with weapons, so we'll just go with this is a mecha show.

But wheels combined with jets would let you move on anything from a airless world to a heavy G dense atmosphere world, without having to do much modification. The Southern Cross, being largely based on earth, diesn't have that problem.

That might also explain why the hover tanks gradually go away-- yes, they work, but the need to modify them for different worlds made them more difficult to keep around than it was worth.

oooh
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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:25 pm
  

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mech798 wrote:
That might also explain why the hover tanks gradually go away-- yes, they work, but the need to modify them for different worlds made them more difficult to keep around than it was worth.


Except it didn't as Scott clearly identifies Hovertanks being in the pile of debris in The Lost City. Also, the Hovertank's ability to be used in Zero-G is clearly shown in the Tv series....

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:46 pm
  

Knight

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To quote from one of the novelizations, when you run out of fuel, the hovercycle is kinda hard to push.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:11 am
  

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SRoss wrote:
To quote from one of the novelizations, when you run out of fuel, the hovercycle is kinda hard to push.


Except that even civilian vehicles (as referenced in Curtain Call) run on Protoculture as well. Why else would the Right Cola van driver need a ration of Protoculture?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:12 am
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
mech798 wrote:
That might also explain why the hover tanks gradually go away-- yes, they work, but the need to modify them for different worlds made them more difficult to keep around than it was worth.


Except it didn't as Scott clearly identifies Hovertanks being in the pile of debris in The Lost City. Also, the Hovertank's ability to be used in Zero-G is clearly shown in the Tv series....

Re: Scott's Observation

the UEEF did have the Syncro-cannon prototype mounted to a hovercraft (in Ep83). So we know the UEEF does use hover vehicles.

The one potential issue with Scott's observation though is if the Hovertanks he spotted where UEEF or UEDF:ASC in origin. After all he did spot Bioroids in the mix too IIRC. I'm just saying there are potential holes here (especially with the bulk of Sentinels material being tossed out).

Re: Space Hovertank
While it is true the VHT-1 was used in space, it had to be modified for it with a mode limited add-on for vehicle mode use (since ep40 only had it in Battloid mode and walking on the hull/interior hold...). And the add-ons where all jettisoned when it went to Battloid mode to IIRC.

Granted none of that should stop the UEEF from using a VHT in space since they could operate it with add-ons, or mode limit it.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:55 pm
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
SRoss wrote:
To quote from one of the novelizations, when you run out of fuel, the hovercycle is kinda hard to push.


Except that even civilian vehicles (as referenced in Curtain Call) run on Protoculture as well. Why else would the Right Cola van driver need a ration of Protoculture?


except that (as has been point out many times when this is brought up), we do not know if that cargo truck's engine was the standard, or if it had been refit with the engine off something else. since that truck serviced norristown, it seems liekly that whatever nearby town it came from could trade for PC from norristown. this might well have been more reliable than any other fuel option, and caused the locals to source PC engines to refit their vehicles with. between the UEEF built jeeps, the survival motorcycles, and later cyclones.

heck, we don't even know the origins of that truck.. for all we know it was originaly a UEEF built military vehicle that the cola company bought off salvagers.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:10 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
except that (as has been point out many times when this is brought up), we do not know if that cargo truck's engine was the standard, or if it had been refit with the engine off something else. since that truck serviced norristown, it seems liekly that whatever nearby town it came from could trade for PC from norristown. this might well have been more reliable than any other fuel option, and caused the locals to source PC engines to refit their vehicles with. between the UEEF built jeeps, the survival motorcycles, and later cyclones.

heck, we don't even know the origins of that truck.. for all we know it was originaly a UEEF built military vehicle that the cola company bought off salvagers.


The fact that Scott's group found Protoculture Cells in a grocery store in Denver (which had been evacuated 2 days before The Invid Invasion) means that it was being used by civilians during at least the 2nd Robotech War (if not beforehand). It is, after all, the miracle fuel and would be more environmentally friendly for a planet that is on the brink due to being nearly obliterated by the Zentraedi....

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:06 am
  

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And running out of Protoculture doesn't make a hover vehicle any easier to push.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:05 pm
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
except that (as has been point out many times when this is brought up), we do not know if that cargo truck's engine was the standard, or if it had been refit with the engine off something else. since that truck serviced norristown, it seems liekly that whatever nearby town it came from could trade for PC from norristown. this might well have been more reliable than any other fuel option, and caused the locals to source PC engines to refit their vehicles with. between the UEEF built jeeps, the survival motorcycles, and later cyclones.

heck, we don't even know the origins of that truck.. for all we know it was originaly a UEEF built military vehicle that the cola company bought off salvagers.


The fact that Scott's group found Protoculture Cells in a grocery store in Denver (which had been evacuated 2 days before The Invid Invasion) means that it was being used by civilians during at least the 2nd Robotech War (if not beforehand). It is, after all, the miracle fuel and would be more environmentally friendly for a planet that is on the brink due to being nearly obliterated by the Zentraedi....


except that
a.) we don't know when exactly it was evacuated. that the place was denver was supposition based on finding a tickertape mentioning an evacuation order for denver. but tickertape machines are not necessarily location specific.. they are tied into a landline which may well include many locations. (and to be honest, given the technology present in the site, it seems really odd that an evac order would be sent out by a landline hooked to a tickertape system) it is still highly possible that the site was not denver, and that Scott misunderstood what the message he found was.
since the site still has perfectly edible bread, meat, and produce (see the sandwich rand is eating) and bagged candies that haven't turned to disgusting blobs (the peppermints), it is clear that the site has not been abandoned to the cold humidity for 15 years.

b.) just because they appear in a shopping cart does not mean they were found in the shopping center. we do not have any actual details on the provenance of the cells in the cart, and carts of that kind would be perfect for moving items around the city in general. it is within reason that Rook borrowed a cart to haul cargo around while visiting other sites in the city. which seems highly likely considering the teams other main cargo hauler, Lunk's truck, was at the time stuck on top of a skyscraper. those cells could well have been in some military or civil site (backup generator for the city, perhaps?), and rook just brought them with her into the store when she went looking for Rand and Annie.



much like with the truck example, you are making definitive statements based on highly ambiguous events, which themselves do not include enough evidence to support your statements, and which the context does not help either.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:27 pm
  

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RSCF wrote:
The fact that Scott's group found Protoculture Cells in a grocery store in Denver (which had been evacuated 2 days before The Invid Invasion) means that it was being used by civilians during at least the 2nd Robotech War (if not beforehand). It is, after all, the miracle fuel and would be more environmentally friendly for a planet that is on the brink due to being nearly obliterated by the Zentraedi....

Actually I agree with gb2098, we don't actually see them recover the PC cells in the store, I agree we see them in the cart, but the specifics of how they got there are speculation at best.

Putting PC into the civilian market seems an odd choice to make give the UEDF/UEEF had a limited supply of the stuff. They didn't have a working PC Factory/Matrix during this time period by all indications (IINM).

glitterboy2098 wrote:
except that
a.) we don't know when exactly it was evacuated. that the place was denver was supposition based on finding a tickertape mentioning an evacuation order for denver. but tickertape machines are not necessarily location specific.. they are tied into a landline which may well include many locations. (and to be honest, given the technology present in the site, it seems really odd that an evac order would be sent out by a landline hooked to a tickertape system) it is still highly possible that the site was not denver, and that Scott misunderstood what the message he found was.
since the site still has perfectly edible bread, meat, and produce (see the sandwich rand is eating) and bagged candies that haven't turned to disgusting blobs (the peppermints), it is clear that the site has not been abandoned to the cold humidity for 15 years.

Actually WE DO KNOW DENVER was evacuated in the TRM saga. I forget the specific epsidoe (TRM #23 or TRM #24 IINM) that shows a domed city being evacuated with dialogue in the montage about Denver. The NG Denver order is dated, so it seems odd to find such a thing still lying around if the site was occupied until recently (under the LR timeline). So domed cities existed in TRM. I'm not saying the two Denvers are the same site though (cities reuse names all the time, even concurrently), because for whatever reason the team was travelling on top of the dome (I don't think it was purely an ice dome either).

I agree the food is an issue, but its also an issue in the OSM (and here its not 15years, but even longer IIRC). Really "Denver" is more a case of supporting an ER timeline as the novels had as opposed to the LR timeline that is the current take.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:39 pm
  

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actually there was a denver mentioned, but the image we got was this:
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

which notably looks way different than what we see in the underice city in new generation, which is this:
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

notice the lack of battle damage, the lack of abandoned cars/traffic jams.. it is hard to reconcile the location seen in southern cross with the location seen in new generation.

also the line from new generation is:
lancer: "scott! take a look at this!" *hands scott a ticker tape*
Bernard: "what is it" *stretches it out and reads it*
Bernard: "to the people of denver"
lancer: "its an evacuation order given the day before the invid came"
Lunk: 'they were in such a hurry, they forgot to turn out the lights. boy are they going ot be stuck with some utility bill"
Bernard: "so this place was called denver"

there is no date given, though the implication certainly is 2031. but that message might well have been meant for denver, and just also arrived at the device there because they were on the same communication line (that is how ticker tape systems work..**), leading to a case of mistaken identity.

and if the site had been abandoned for 11 years, all that food they found should be spoiled (unless it was in cans.. and even then, it would be way past the use by dates and thus suspect), not to mention there should be way more weathering and damage to the buildings from the snow, ice, and water inside.



**they are connected to landlines, and print out anything that comes over them. they got used as a secure backup during the cold war because their analog systems and largely buried cables would survive nuclear strikes. since multiple locations were connected to a single multiply redundant connection for ease of sending messages out, you had to specify the messages intended location, because everyone got them. so a message sent to Denver could also pop up in say, colorado springs, or even NORAD. since they were used mainly for civil defense notifications, this was seen as an advantage.)

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:31 am
  

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glitterbouy2098 wrote:
notice the lack of battle damage, the lack of abandoned cars/traffic jams.. it is hard to reconcile the location seen in southern cross with the location seen in new generation.

I'm not saying the two "Denvers" are the same site though (I even stated that in my previous post). What I am saying is that a domed "Denver" does get evacuated at the end of TRM saga, so "domed cities" are a reality in the setting.

Yes there is a disconnect between the two Denvers, which can be explained in universe/story in several ways, or out of universe (the cobbled together nature of the original 85ep).

glitterboy2098 wrote:
there is no date given, though the implication certainly is 2031. but that message might well have been meant for denver, and just also arrived at the device there because they were on the same communication line (that is how ticker tape systems work..**), leading to a case of mistaken identity.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by date given. As you pointed out in the dialogue, "given the day before the Invid came". For RT dialogue that is pretty specific. And TRM dialogue suggests the Invid are expected to arrive within days/hours in the last few episodes of TRM saga.

glitterboy2098 wrote:
and if the site had been abandoned for 11 years, all that food they found should be spoiled (unless it was in cans.. and even then, it would be way past the use by dates and thus suspect), not to mention there should be way more weathering and damage to the buildings from the snow, ice, and water inside.

Oh I agree there are issues like this with the episode "Frostbite". The Food alone is a big issue. One that I don't think TPTB really considered when constructing the official timeline back in the early 2000s (previously events for NG would put it in early '30s based on previous products IINM), never mind the OSM writers.

The weathering I'm not so sure on. We can cut down on the damage IF we assume there is an artificial dome covered by snow and ice, and not a pure ice dome (which would need explaining in of its self). We assume the place was uninhabited, but what if there was an automated maintenance system in place (TMS did have civilian commercial service 'bots running around, so who knows where the technology might have developed that we aren't shown). That might at least explain the non-food issues to some degree.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:19 pm
  

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then you need to show proof that a domed 'denver' exists in the southern cross portion of the series. because i can find no evidence of such a place existing.

there is very clearly a non-domed denver however, that was being subject to attack (given the damage seen) and which had a rather chaotic evacuation (as can be seen)

i am not refuting the possibility of domed cities (Monument has a domed amusement park after all that would be big enough inside for a small city), it is just that that you keep claiming we see a domed city called denver in masters saga.. but i can't find the damn thing in the show.





and weathering would still be an issues even if there was a complete transparent dome.. because we see snow and ice over everything inside. including areas far from the hole bernards group came in from. indicating that the entire area inside had some sort of water cycle and freezing temps. which means the buildings are going ot be weathered.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:57 am
  

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Domed City/sections of City
For starters:
Ep60 14:21 (dialogue overlay puts it as part of Monument in this case)

I'm pretty sure there is one more shot, I'm just not sure which episode/timecode its in ATM (I don't really have the time/energy to review the entire arc either). It has been that long since this last came up, and RT.com's forum sections aren't searchable anymore (not even up, webarchive isn't the best for this sort of thing).

glitterboy2098 wrote:
there is very clearly a non-domed denver however, that was being subject to attack (given the damage seen) and which had a rather chaotic evacuation (as can be seen)

But is that actually Denver proper, or just a large community in the Denver Zone (which IIRC is the dialogue's description) being shown? Being the Denver Zone would sort of imply that Denver would be part of it.

glitterboy2098 wrote:
and weathering would still be an issues even if there was a complete transparent dome.. because we see snow and ice over everything inside. including areas far from the hole bernards group came in from. indicating that the entire area inside had some sort of water cycle and freezing temps. which means the buildings are going ot be weathered.

But how long did it take to accumulate all that ice and snow? Does it go through freeze/thaw cycles or not? We know the team can go into snowy areas with their "warm weather" clothes from other episodes (Fortress, The Midnight Sun), so "Denver" might not thawout and still be habitable (Frostbite has them in the middle of a storm, which is an entirely different set of conditions than what they found themselves in previously).

We also don't know if strides where made in building materials that could resist weathering. So I'm willing to give the writers and animators a pass on this aspect since a lot of factors go into it. The food issue is much bigger IMHO since there isn't any way to really explain it.

Anyway I'm done with this tangent at this point.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:43 pm
  

Hero

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If we are going by what was in the novels....wasn't it NOT Denver?? Didn't the little in universe thing at the beginning of the chapter say it was actually an underground continuity of government site??

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:58 am
  

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Chris0013 wrote:
If we are going by what was in the novels....wasn't it NOT Denver?? Didn't the little in universe thing at the beginning of the chapter say it was actually an underground continuity of government site??

We aren't going by what's in the novels though. But yes in the Novels it wasn't Denver, but an AMERICAN installation for that purpose.

Regardless though it doesn't explain the condition of the city, or why the food had managed to last so long. Be in Novels or LR/current timeline, the city without some form of maintenance should not look as good as it does, nor should the apparently commercial food on the shelves still be edible.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:34 pm
  

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the ambiguity as to what the place is allows for quite a few different explanations. personally i rather like the idea of it being an elaborate shelter. which could easily be where the people of denver seen in southern cross evacuated to.

the problem is always going to be the fresh food issue though.. while enough of what rand and annie were eating was canned that you could make an argument for those parts surviving long enough for a 13 year timespan, plenty of it wasn't in anything resembling longterm storage, making anything over a few months iffy. (it is even worse in the original MOSPEADA.. where the timeframe involved was meant to be decades)

i can think of a few possible options to explain it using elements from the show**.. but they'd be highly speculative stuff and not something i'd want to use outside my own games without corroborating evidence elsewhere.

**for example, that the place was heavily automated using automation similar to the bots seen on macross island/the SDF-1, which regularly restocked the place with fresher food obtained from automated farms and/or 'food factories' that recycle organic materials to make synethetics out of stuff like say, yeast.. the latter is indirectly implied by the way the SDF-1 can feed its civilian population so readily, but is not a confirmed part of the setting.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:18 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 5754
Location: 25th Member of the "Cabal of 24"
Comment: Token Right Wing Fascist Totalitarian
"Never hit a man while he's down. Kick them, it's easier" - The Hunt
ShadowLogan wrote:
Chris0013 wrote:
If we are going by what was in the novels....wasn't it NOT Denver?? Didn't the little in universe thing at the beginning of the chapter say it was actually an underground continuity of government site??

We aren't going by what's in the novels though. But yes in the Novels it wasn't Denver, but an AMERICAN installation for that purpose.

Regardless though it doesn't explain the condition of the city, or why the food had managed to last so long. Be in Novels or LR/current timeline, the city without some form of maintenance should not look as good as it does, nor should the apparently commercial food on the shelves still be edible.

Are you saying this was Denver's evacuation site (City sized bunker)?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:53 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 5291
Location: WI
No this wasn't Denver's evacuation site in the Novels. It was "constructed to ensure that American's heads of state would survive any form of attack leveled against the continent. But they weren't thinking of the Zentreadi then" (Novel #12 pg52, non-omnibus edition). So as Chris0013 stated it was an underground continuity of government site, one that was for America's govt not the UEG/UEDC.


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