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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:11 am
  

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Knight

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Why do the later generation Veritech Fighters have higher speeds in their alt (non-fighter) modes than the VF-1 in almost every case (the only two exceptions are AGAC Helicopter treated as a guardian AND the Beta in guardian)? Yet in Fighter Mode they only have 35-70% the speed of the VF-1 at its listed altitudes? This just seems to make little sense to me to put emphasis on alt-mode speed, and it would seem to run counter to the idea of a technological backslide given these are arguably the least aerodynamic modes so should have lower speeds in comparison to the more aerodynamic VF-1. Any technologies the later VFs could have for G/B modes should in theory also work for F mode (and better in F mode I suspect)

For reference I am using 2E RPG/RT.com Infopedia classification for alt modes AND Speeds for all modes (I am using the slightly higher numbers in the 2E RPG for the VF-1 outside of Sea Level, otherwise they all match?). Results compared to the VF-1 in a given mode (VFH-10 and VF-8 do not have official "Guardian" modes by the official thinking, even though Marie specifically calls the Logan's alt mode "guardian", and the AGAC well a helicopter has physics that limit its airspeed):
-VFA-6H/I/S/X is ~136% in Guardian mode, and ~160% in Battloid mode
-VFA-6Z is 155% in Guardian mode, and ~190% in Battloid mode
-VBF-9A/S is equal in Guardian mode, but ~250% in Battloid mode
-VFH-10 is ~155% in Battloid mode (if we treat it's helicopter mode as comparable to Guardian it only has ~77%)
-VF-8 is ~180% in Battloid mode (though if we go by the dialogue it is Guardian mode, and would be 70%)

This means that if the Battloid mode stats are used as reference, then the other mecha should be similarly faster than the VF-1 in their other modes to. Battloid mode seems appropriate as canonically they all have one. So what do the later VFs look like if we use Battloid mode ratios to adjust the G/F modes? And for simplicity use the Sea Level speed in Fighter mode and retain the same altitude ratios (so if at 10k you are 40% faster than at sea level under the canon stats, adjusting it you'd still be 40% faster than sea level with the "fanon" stat). Well this is what they would look like (Quick and dirty Mach speed at various listed altitudes is approx. 1 Mach per 1000kph):

VF-1 is Unchanged

VFA-6H/I/X/S
Fighter Mode
Sea Level: 2755kph (3250kph with Z model)
10k meter: 4760kph (5553kph with Z model)
30k meter: 7516kph (8803kph with Z model)
Guardian Mode: 804kph all altitudes (948kph with Z model)

VFB-1A/S
Fighter Mode
Sea Level: 4257kph
18k meter: 11738kph
45k meter: 54131kph (Ballistic, which would actually allow the Beta to achieve Earth Escape Velocity easily)
Guardian Mode: 1242kph all altitudes

VFH-10
Fighter Mode
Sea Level: 2649kph
30k meter: 4398kph
Guardian Mode: As Helicopter

VF-8
Fighter Mode
Sea Level: 3091kph
10k meter: 6624kph
Guardian Mode: No Guardian Mode (by HG's Official line)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:24 am
  

Hero

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I don't have a GOOD explanation but I do have a kind of explanation.

the best explanation I have is that the "newer" veritechs while they don't seem to have more absolute top end power (at least in fighter mode) have more "effective" power/thrust available in their alt modes than the VF-1 does.

the best way I can explain this is by making a car analogy.

the VF-1 has 3 "gears" it has the low battloid gear, where it has a top speed of 60mph running and 120 flying it has a "medium" gear where it tops out at mach 1 in "guardian mode"
it has the high gear in fighter mode where it tops out at ~mach 3.5-4.0

the Alpha has a low gear that is set higher than the vf-1's 120mph its 180mph instead exactly HOW it accomplishes this is not stated but it could be more aerodynamic so less drag proportionately (umm no)
or it has a higher thrust to weight/drag ratio because it has more/more powerful thrusters it can use in B mode.
it also has more /more efficient thrusters in "G" mode, but not in F mode.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:53 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Why do the later generation Veritech Fighters have higher speeds in their alt (non-fighter) modes than the VF-1 in almost every case (the only two exceptions are AGAC Helicopter treated as a guardian AND the Beta in guardian)? Yet in Fighter Mode they only have 35-70% the speed of the VF-1 at its listed altitudes? This just seems to make little sense to me [...]

Forgive me for cutting straight to the heart of the problem, but the reason it doesn't make sense to you is that you jumped straight to the conclusion that the official canon was wrong instead of doing the research.

Now, as to the why... the fact of the matter is that this is something inherited from the OSM, and is generally a function of the designs of the aircraft in question. (It's not helped by the Infopedia giving barely enough info to cover one side of a 3x5 card.)

The crux of the problem is actually a gaffe by the uRRG "researchers" in their coverage of the [AFC-01 Legioss/VFA-6 Alpha]. You see, none of the original shows listed a flight speed for their mecha in robot mode... so what the uRRG's writers did to fill that category was they used one of the two speeds cited for the Legioss in Armo-Diver mode [Guardian] as the Alpha's battloid mode speed. The 312km/h speed is what was actually listed for Armo-Diver [Guardian] mode with the arms deployed, and the faster 680km/h speed is Armo-Diver [Guardian] mode with the arms folded and using all of the fighter's engines. The 312km/h speed isn't all that unreasonable, however, given that in the Armo-Soldier [Battloid] mode it can still potentially use most or all of its six engines to sustain flight, and they're all designed for sustained use.

The VF-1 Valkyrie spec, which Robotech inherited from the original Macross, was cut down for the Infopedia to the point that the article doesn't mention that the "backpack" engines are a different type from the main engines. The VF-1's main engines in the legs are the potent FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction turbine engines that OSM-ly can run for weeks, but the auxiliary engines in the "backpack" are three liquid fuel rocket boosters with a fairly limited internal fuel supply. Each rocket is about 74% more powerful than the Legioss/Alpha's sub-engines officially are (81.72kN vs 47.07kN), but they're not intended for continuous use and would run out of fuel quickly at their maximum output. That's why the VF-1 Valkyrie's maximum level speed in GERWALK (Guardian) mode looks slower... it's achieving that 500km/h with just those rocket motors and what little thrust can be spared by tilting the main engines. The same would be true of Battroid [Battloid] mode, since the majority of the main engine thrust is devoted to keeping the aircraft airborne and the rockets are what's providing forward thrust.



Put simply, the mecha of the Masters Saga and New Generation that fly faster than the VF-1 in their alt-modes are able to do so purely as a result of how they transform... not because the official stats short-sold them.

The VF-1's not designed for sustained high-speed level flight in GERWALK [Guardian] mode or Battroid [Battloid] mode, so the only engines it has for that purpose are designed for short bursts of acceleration. The Alpha and Beta have more engine systems than the VF-1 does, and a transformation setup that leaves most of those engines in line to provide thrust for level flight in its alt modes. The Logan's transformation, minimalistic as it is, leaves its main engines in that position and the reduction in speed is presumably down to output diverted to the hover nozzles in the feet and the increased drag.


EDIT: Edited for tone, spelling errors.
EDIT 2: Whoops! Accidentally used the auxiliary engine thrust for the VF-1X's improved rocket engines instead of the early type used on the VF-1[A/D/J/S]. Each of the three rockets is 74% more powerful than the Legioss/Alpha's sub-engines, not 78%.

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Last edited by Seto Kaiba on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:08 pm
  

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the VF-1 has two hugely powerful engines in the legs.. and only a few small thrusters elsewhere. in guardian and battloid mode, the bulk of its thrust is being employed for lift, not horizontal speed.

the Alpha has 2 large engines in the legs, two somewhat smaller engines in the arms, and a fairly powerful thruster in the groin. the thruster is powerful enough to allow the fighter to lift off and hover vertically. in guardian mode this means the groin thruster can provide the lift, allowing the leg engines (and arm engines if those are still stowed) to be employed for forward thrust. odds are the thruster can be vectored for use in lift during battloid mode as well, allowing the leg engines to be used farther off centerline to give horizontal thrust.

the AGACS is laid out with large engines in the legs similar to the VF-1, but those rotor tips appear to mount thrusters nearly as large as the groin thruster on the Alpha, which should give it a fairly high horizontal thrust in battloid mode. (and i would not count the copter mode as equivilent to guardian mode for this issue, since it would be relying on the helicopter blades for lift and horizontal thrust, possibly with augmentation by the leg engines for horizontal thrust. [compound helicopters IRL like the eurocopter X3,S-72, and AH-56 Cheyenne can hit speeds of up to 200mph+)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:26 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the VF-1 has two hugely powerful engines in the legs.. and only a few small thrusters elsewhere. in guardian and battloid mode, the bulk of its thrust is being employed for lift, not horizontal speed.

Mostly accurate... it'd be difficult to call the trio of liquid-fueled rockets that are the VF-1 Valkyrie's auxiliary engines "small thrusters" with a straight face, as individually they're 174% as powerful as the Alpha's sub-engines and when operated together their combined output is actually slightly greater (~20kN) than the output of the VF-1's two main engines at 100% power.1 Most of the vernier array fits the description, though some of them have more than enough power to briefly get the fighter hovering and are even used in atmospheric maneuvering (such as their wingtip-mounted roll control verniers). Neither the rockets nor the verniers are suited for long-duration use, though, which is a big part of what limits the usage of GERWALK [Guardian] mode to hovering-type maneuvers and why the flight in Battroid [Battloid] is usually stationkeeping while rotating on an axis.



glitterboy2098 wrote:
the Alpha has 2 large engines in the legs, two somewhat smaller engines in the arms, and a fairly powerful thruster in the groin. the thruster is powerful enough to allow the fighter to lift off and hover vertically. in guardian mode this means the groin thruster can provide the lift, allowing the leg engines (and arm engines if those are still stowed) to be employed for forward thrust. odds are the thruster can be vectored for use in lift during battloid mode as well, allowing the leg engines to be used farther off centerline to give horizontal thrust.

The exact positioning of the Alpha's sub-engines is kind of an "open to debate" situation, due to some ambiguously worded statements in the Infopedia. OSM-ly, each foot contains a main engine nozzle and a sub-engine system for added thrust, while each arm also contains a sub-engine. The ventral vectoring nozzles used diverted airflow from the main engine. The Infopedia's coverage of the Shadow Fighter suggests there may not be sub-engines inside of the feet and that the ventral nozzles are where those two sub-engines migrated to, leaving the fighter with the same total of 6 engines (2 main, 4 sub).

Depending on which version you adhere to, in [Armo-Diver/Guardian] with arms stowed the fighter has either five or six engines to play with... though in either case for [Armo-Soldier/Battloid] there is the amusing potential to use the ventral nozzles that end up in the chest to permit "Superman"-style flight by using the sub-engines for thrust and all the main engine power for hovering.



1. For the Block 5 and earlier VF-1 Valkyrie that appeared in the original Macross TV series (and thus in Robotech), the nominal maximum power (100%) was not the true maximum operating power. In overboost, that engine was capable of 200% of its standard rated output. That increased to 240% on the Block 6 and later VF-1 that first appeared in DYRL?.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:40 am
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
Forgive me for cutting straight to the heart of the problem, but the reason it doesn't make sense to you is that you jumped straight to the conclusion that the official canon was wrong instead of doing the research.

You know my view on OSM data.

In universe though it doesn't make a lick of sense, especially when you consider:
-with regard to the Alpha when you consider that the Shadow Model drops the VTOL engines without impacting flight performance in G/B modes and nothing indicates the engines are new models with even higher thrust (or other performance) ratings than the -Z (aside from protoculture emissions).
-AFAIK there isn't anything to support the idea the VF-1 is still using built-in liquid chemical rockets in RT (absent in the Infopedia) and if we restrict ourselves to a 2E RPG RAW perspective the VF-1 is using a fusion system to power those rockets (which at least suggests HG might be thinking along those lines).
-I've always viewed the VF-1's G mode top speed as also using the main engines in the legs for forward flight (see Ep2 when Rick is rescuing Minmei, the legs are swept back when he's avoiding the missile barrage and subsequent ariel transfer before leveling out and the legs drop), a similar function for the Alpha (and Beta) that it assumes the best possible position for performance gains. (Logan and AGACs don't have traditional G-modes so aren't an issue from a G mode perspective)
-given that all the VFs are said to have the same speed in B/G regardless of altitude, that doesn't add up either since at higher altitude they should encounter less drag and have higher operating speeds as a result
-If the Beta's horizontal speed is from the one rear facing engine in B/G, then logically the F mode should be x3 faster than one of those two modes even at sea level. Granted that assumes those engines are all putting out the same amount of thrust (each leg and the single main body) and isn't benefiting from the reduced drag offered by F mode

glitterboy2098 wrote:
(and i would not count the copter mode as equivilent to guardian mode for this issue

I don't say WE SHOULD, only IF in terms of treating the Helicopter and Guardian mode as equivalents. I'm leery of it since operationally physics will place limits on the rotor craft mode operation that the other VFs don't have to content with, but put it out there for those interested.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:39 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
You know my view on OSM data.

Yes, I do... but the simple, honest fact of the matter is that Robotech's official canon relies quite heavily upon the OSM, the official tech specs are derived from it (when they're not simply copied whole-cloth from it), and Harmony Gold's staff considers the OSM one of the most reliable sources of information for resolving inconsistencies and areas of unclear information. These things that you're saying don't make "a lick of sense" DO, in fact, make sense when viewed with context. The Infopedia's coverage was so brief and bare-bones that the context got lost in the reduction.



ShadowLogan wrote:
In universe though it doesn't make a lick of sense, especially when you consider:
-with regard to the Alpha when you consider that the Shadow Model drops the VTOL engines without impacting flight performance in G/B modes and nothing indicates the engines are new models with even higher thrust (or other performance) ratings than the -Z (aside from protoculture emissions).

My previous post actually contains the explanation for this one... the uRRG-contributed "research" conflated nozzles with engines, apparently not realizing that the ventral nozzles are fed by the main turbines. The Shadow Fighter has the same performance numbers as the standard Alpha because the OSM Dark Legioss had the same spec as the regular Legioss, because those VTOL nozzles were just nozzles, not the actual engines themselves.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-AFAIK there isn't anything to support the idea the VF-1 is still using built-in liquid chemical rockets in RT (absent in the Infopedia) and if we restrict ourselves to a 2E RPG RAW perspective the VF-1 is using a fusion system to power those rockets (which at least suggests HG might be thinking along those lines).

To date, there isn't anything in Robotech's official canon to indicate or even suggest that they aren't still liquid fuel rockets. Minus a few data points that were rounded, the RT.com Infopedia copied the OSM VF-1 spec so completely they accidentally copied weapons options which don't even exist in Robotech, and even went back to establish that the mecha ran on fusion rather than protoculture.

IIRC, the RPG lists that third fusion reactor that doesn't exist in canon as a generator for powering onboard systems, not an engine system.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-I've always viewed the VF-1's G mode top speed as also using the main engines in the legs for forward flight (see Ep2 when Rick is rescuing Minmei, the legs are swept back when he's avoiding the missile barrage and subsequent ariel transfer before leveling out and the legs drop), a similar function for the Alpha (and Beta) that it assumes the best possible position for performance gains.

That's not level flight, that's a power drive... though, as I noted, the VF-1 does use some of the thrust from the main engines to provide forward acceleration in GERWALK [Guardian] mode. Just not all of it, given that they're also responsible for providing the thrust that's taking the place of lift in keeping the fighter airborne. (They sort of lean into it, but they can't lean too far or they'll tip. GERWALK [Guardian] isn't really intended for long-duration flight on the VF-1.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
-given that all the VFs are said to have the same speed in B/G regardless of altitude, that doesn't add up either since at higher altitude they should encounter less drag and have higher operating speeds as a result

That's more a beef with the Infopedia's presentation than the actual information... considering they're staying up purely on raw thrust with a much-reduced or outright absent contribution from lift, it can be understood that there's an implicit service ceiling in play in atmosphere. The OSM spec for the Legioss actually notes that its Armo-Diver flight speed is at an altitude of just 10m.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-If the Beta's horizontal speed is from the one rear facing engine in B/G, then logically the F mode should be x3 faster than one of those two modes even at sea level. Granted that assumes those engines are all putting out the same amount of thrust (each leg and the single main body) and isn't benefiting from the reduced drag offered by F mode

Drag increases with the square of the speed, so 3x thrust won't actually equal 3x velocity even in the same mode... there's some complex aerodynamics in play on that front.

Still, you more or less hit the nail on the head as to why it didn't shake out like that. The AB-01 TLEAD's [Beta's] center engine is a lot less powerful than the two main ones, but it benefits from being a multi-stage engine that greatly increases in power when a Legioss [Alpha] is connected, since the output of the two main turbines is ducted through to it and used to increase its power.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:53 am
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
IIRC, the RPG lists that third fusion reactor that doesn't exist in canon as a generator for powering onboard systems, not an engine system.

You would be incorrect. Unless it was changed in the full-size, the manga listing on pg67 reads "A third NA fusion reactor burning SLMH-V powers the numerous vernier thrusters mounted to the airframe."

Seto wrote:
That's not level flight, that's a power drive... though, as I noted, the VF-1 does use some of the thrust from the main engines to provide forward acceleration in GERWALK [Guardian] mode. Just not all of it, given that they're also responsible for providing the thrust that's taking the place of lift in keeping the fighter airborne. (They sort of lean into it, but they can't lean too far or they'll tip. GERWALK [Guardian] isn't really intended for long-duration flight on the VF-1.)

It wasn't just a power dive it was used for. Rick went ballistic using it in Ep2 while holding Minmei, and for a short time had leveled off during the missile barrage.

Seto wrote:
Drag increases with the square of the speed, so 3x thrust won't actually equal 3x velocity even in the same mode... there's some complex aerodynamics in play on that front.

I agree there are some complex aerodynamics in play, I don't really expect to see G and B modes with velocities equal to F mode in atmospheric use (space is another matter). However there are drag reduction technologies/techniques that could be said to be in play and we'd never notice. Most (if not all) of which could be utilized for any mode. I don't think there is anything preventing those them from being utilized (even as a recton) to explain the higher speeds, but using them means you have to explain why they aren't applied to F mode to raise its operating speeds (where it makes the most sense).

This applies to the VF-1 and VFB-9, not so much the VFA-6, but... The G-mode does retrain the wings in a deployed configuration, which means they can be used to generate lift above a minimum velocity, which would allow the legs to sweep back for less drag. The main drag differing source then between F and G mode would be with the arms, but this requires a minimum speed to be achieved so the leg engines don't have to be used for lifting but instead for pushing.

The Alpha having no wings in full G-mode can't match that exactly given that its wings fold down becoming vertical stabilizers (for all practical purpose). AE most likely, but we DO see the Alpha hovering in G-mode sans legs in "Paper Hero" (opening battle sequence), so its possible the Alpha doesn't even need the legs to hover in G-mode. If that isn't an AE then the Alpha could use its legs to provide forward thrust while its VTOL engines (considered separate from main/secondary) do the lifting (arm engines are not functional when deployed*), so it won't have as much thrust as F-mode (about 1/2).

The Logan and AGAC don't have a "guardian mode" officially (even though that is technically what dialogue states about the Logan).


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:42 am
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
You would be incorrect. Unless it was changed in the full-size, the manga listing on pg67 reads "A third NA fusion reactor burning SLMH-V powers the numerous vernier thrusters mounted to the airframe."

... are you so sure I'm wrong? I see two problems with your conclusion:
  1. The auxiliary engines in the "backpack" aren't verniers, not even by the loosest and most casual definition of the term. ;)
  2. This statement clearly indicates that the third reactor that doesn't exist in canon "powers" the vernier thrusters. It isn't an engine system itself, it's a power supply. Similar notations can be found throughout the books of a discrete reactor powering an engine system.

(As to why a vernier thruster would need a power supply, it's worth remembering that the vernier thrusters on the VF-1's exterior have thrust-vectoring capability via a motorized ring and adjustable control surface across the nozzle. They'd also need power for the igniter, but I'll admit a dedicated fusion reactor is going WAAAAAAAY overboard for what are essentially small chemical rockets. This kind of thing is no small part of why Harmony Gold doesn't treat the RPG as a reliable or authoritative source.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
It wasn't just a power dive it was used for. Rick went ballistic using it in Ep2 while holding Minmei, and for a short time had leveled off during the missile barrage.

He used it in the power dive where he caught Minmay after the arm was shot off.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree there are some complex aerodynamics in play, I don't really expect to see G and B modes with velocities equal to F mode in atmospheric use (space is another matter). However there are drag reduction technologies/techniques that could be said to be in play and we'd never notice.

There is an awfully big gulf between "could be" and "are"... the only one of the mecha where I am aware of ANY mention of any kind of drag reduction technology in play is, in what will be a surprise to bloody well nobody, the VF-1 Valkyrie. Its OSM writeups mention the usage of a sophisticated boundary layer control system with a dedicated set of sub-intakes... but it was intended for use in fighter mode and I honestly cannot recall any mention of it being used outside of fighter mode. (Definitely not in Battroid [Battloid] mode, where the intakes are closed behind an armored shutter and, in any case, are pointing in completely the wrong direction.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
Most (if not all) of which could be utilized for any mode. I don't think there is anything preventing those them from being utilized (even as a recton) to explain the higher speeds, but using them means you have to explain why they aren't applied to F mode to raise its operating speeds (where it makes the most sense).

Like most attempts to argue against the OSM-derived stats, it's a self-defeating argument because it'd cause more logical problems than it'd solve. uRRG inaccuracies aside, there's a very good reason Harmony Gold chose to base Robotech's official spec on the OSM.



ShadowLogan wrote:
This applies to the VF-1 and VFB-9, not so much the VFA-6, but... The G-mode does retrain the wings in a deployed configuration, which means they can be used to generate lift above a minimum velocity, which would allow the legs to sweep back for less drag. The main drag differing source then between F and G mode would be with the arms, but this requires a minimum speed to be achieved so the leg engines don't have to be used for lifting but instead for pushing.

There are some issues with the mechanical articulation there, but this is part of the reason why the flight speed for arms-folded Armo-Diver [Guardian] is more than twice that of the speed with the arms deployed. You still have all the drag of the deployed legs and you can't get a lot of lift from the wing, but it's enough of a drag reduction combined with increased available engine power to go much faster.



ShadowLogan wrote:
AE most likely, but we DO see the Alpha hovering in G-mode sans legs in "Paper Hero" (opening battle sequence), so its possible the Alpha doesn't even need the legs to hover in G-mode.

Yeah... it's almost like it has a pair of thrust-vectoring nozzles on the underside of the aircraft that are used for things like VTOL and hovering, nozzles which had the full power of the main engines behind them in the OSM. ;)

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:24 am
  

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Seto wrote:
There is an awfully big gulf between "could be" and "are"... the only one of the mecha where I am aware of ANY mention of any kind of drag reduction technology in play is, in what will be a surprise to bloody well nobody, the VF-1 Valkyrie. Its OSM writeups mention the usage of a sophisticated boundary layer control system with a dedicated set of sub-intakes... but it was intended for use in fighter mode and I honestly cannot recall any mention of it being used outside of fighter mode. (Definitely not in Battroid [Battloid] mode, where the intakes are closed behind an armored shutter and, in any case, are pointing in completely the wrong direction.)

True about the gulf, but I am trying to avoid claiming something that isn't stated, at this point its a "maybe" nothing more. They'd have to be "RT-isms" and purposely added by HG to the mecha as a feature (and you do note that technical details for the later sagas tend to be lacking).

Seto wrote:
Like most attempts to argue against the OSM-derived stats, it's a self-defeating argument because it'd cause more logical problems than it'd solve. uRRG inaccuracies aside, there's a very good reason Harmony Gold chose to base Robotech's official spec on the OSM.

I have to disagree. The OSM-derived stats cause just as many (if not more) logical problems, and IMHO bigger issues when looking at the larger picture.

Seto wrote:
There are some issues with the mechanical articulation there, but this is part of the reason why the flight speed for arms-folded Armo-Diver [Guardian] is more than twice that of the speed with the arms deployed. You still have all the drag of the deployed legs and you can't get a lot of lift from the wing, but it's enough of a drag reduction combined with increased available engine power to go much faster.

But that's with the legs facing downward, there really shouldn't be anything to prevent them from flying with the legs swept back from an articulation standpoint as if they are in F mode on either the Beta or VF-1 given the knee joints in both cases in how it goes from G-B they have to pass-by F position.

I don't expect such a maneuver to be highly used as the main means of high speed movement. As we see in EP3 is something that can happen from needing to maneuver rapidly (climb, dive, evasive), but would also offer benefits if the transformation system gets disabled/damaged/limited and they can not get into F mode, but can make use of G mode for a more energy efficient flight.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:13 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
True about the gulf, but I am trying to avoid claiming something that isn't stated, at this point its a "maybe" nothing more. They'd have to be "RT-isms" and purposely added by HG to the mecha as a feature (and you do note that technical details for the later sagas tend to be lacking).

Yep... if we could point to something distinctly Robotech to support it that would be helpful, but unfortunately there's not really anything to go on there.

In all honestly, I'm not sure "lacking" is entirely the right word for what's going on with the completeness of OSM specs in the latter two sagas. Or, at least, it's not really fair to MOSPEADA. Southern Cross's information is less "lacking" than it is "almost entirely absent", while MOSPEADA's is at a more typical level of detail for a mecha anime series of that period. The big problem is that MOSPEADA's creators lavished all the detail on the mecha that was supposed to be the show's centerpiece (the titular VR-052 MOSPEADA) instead of the fighters that weren't supposed to be more than background set dressing in the show as originally planned. It can feel a bit lacking next to the level of detail Macross's creators sunk into the VF-1, but even that would be horribly unfair to MOSPEADA given that its detail level was more or less typical for the period and Shoji Kawamori and Masahiro Chiba simply went massively overboard.



ShadowLogan wrote:
But that's with the legs facing downward, there really shouldn't be anything to prevent them from flying with the legs swept back from an articulation standpoint as if they are in F mode on either the Beta or VF-1 given the knee joints in both cases in how it goes from G-B they have to pass-by F position.

I don't expect such a maneuver to be highly used as the main means of high speed movement. As we see in EP3 is something that can happen from needing to maneuver rapidly (climb, dive, evasive), but would also offer benefits if the transformation system gets disabled/damaged/limited and they can not get into F mode, but can make use of G mode for a more energy efficient flight.

On the VF-1, the big problem with that approach is that you're going to get a lot of drag and the fighter is going to be unbalanced moving through the air with its center of gravity thrown out so far in front and the engine power off-axis to the lift surface. Not an ideal situation if your idea of flight is stable.

On the Legioss [Alpha], the problem is more logistical given that the feet and VTOL lift nozzles are fed by the same pair of turbines and thus it's an eternal balancing act between which engine is providing lift and which is providing thrust.

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