Atlantis messes with the CS

[Subjugator]

So - Splynncryth gets a hair up his rear tentacle and decides to mess with the CS.

In pursuit of that goal, he starts capturing large numbers of CS personnel and giving them tattoos. Some get the tat on their arm and some get it on their head or torso.

How would the CS respond to this, assuming it was known as being involuntary?

/Sub

[Shades of Eternity]

basically a tag and release program.

to mess with normal humans and make them "tainted"

I know what I'd do if I were joesph prosek.

I would contain them and then have his contacts at the vanguard learn and use them.

[Subjugator]

So - Splynncryth gets a hair up his rear tentacle and decides to mess with the CS.

In pursuit of that goal, he starts capturing large numbers of CS personnel and giving them tattoos. Some get the tat on their arm and some get it on their head or torso.

How would the CS respond to this, assuming it was known as being involuntary?

/Sub

Uhm can you rephrase? Any examples?

OK - imagine that three CS colonels, a general, twenty-seven captains (army), and three thousand grunts are captured in a slaver hit to a minor CS base. Half die, leaving two colonels, the general, ten captains, and fifteen hundred grunts as captives.

Splynncryth giggles and has his tattoo masters. Soon, you have a whole boatload of CS military folks that are now effectively mages that are then released to do as they will. Some will inevitably return to their bases and families, who find out that they are incurably magical in nature. Some can have their arms or the like amputated, but they at least *were* magical.

Others could go to the bio-wizard transformation vats to become elves, dwarves, or supernatural beings.

How would the CS respond?

/Sub

[Vrykolas2k]

So - Splynncryth gets a hair up his rear tentacle and decides to mess with the CS.

In pursuit of that goal, he starts capturing large numbers of CS personnel and giving them tattoos. Some get the tat on their arm and some get it on their head or torso.

How would the CS respond to this, assuming it was known as being involuntary?

/Sub

Uhm can you rephrase? Any examples?

OK - imagine that three CS colonels, a general, twenty-seven captains (army), and three thousand grunts are captured in a slaver hit to a minor CS base. Half die, leaving two colonels, the general, ten captains, and fifteen hundred grunts as captives.

Splynncryth giggles and has his tattoo masters. Soon, you have a whole boatload of CS military folks that are now effectively mages that are then released to do as they will. Some will inevitably return to their bases and families, who find out that they are incurably magical in nature. Some can have their arms or the like amputated, but they at least *were* magical.

Others could go to the bio-wizard transformation vats to become elves, dwarves, or supernatural beings.

How would the CS respond?

/Sub

Kill them.
Are you sure humans could be turned into elves or whatever...?

[Subjugator]

Kill them.
Are you sure humans could be turned into elves or whatever...?

At least visually.

/Sub

[Nekira Sudacne]

So - Splynncryth gets a hair up his rear tentacle and decides to mess with the CS.

In pursuit of that goal, he starts capturing large numbers of CS personnel and giving them tattoos. Some get the tat on their arm and some get it on their head or torso.

How would the CS respond to this, assuming it was known as being involuntary?

/Sub

They've been corrupted by evil and need to be killed to keep the infection from spreading, like a virulent plauge.

Not much of a question really.

[cornholioprime]

So - Splynncryth gets a hair up his rear tentacle and decides to mess with the CS.

In pursuit of that goal, he starts capturing large numbers of CS personnel and giving them tattoos. Some get the tat on their arm and some get it on their head or torso.

How would the CS respond to this, assuming it was known as being involuntary?

/Sub

They've been corrupted by evil and need to be killed to keep the infection from spreading, like a virulent plauge.

Not much of a question really.

Agreement with Nekira.

They'd be killed to maintain the illusion; the smarter ones and/or the higher-ranked ones, who know what's REALLY going on with the CS's inner workings, would go AWOL and make their way to the nearest pro-human city they could find.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

sure the coalition haters would like to think the cs would kill them, but the cs might take in account how well they served and if they could be an asset in the future. or just eliminated with cybernetics

[cornholioprime]

sure the coalition haters would like to think the cs would kill them, but the cs might take in account how well they served and if they could be an asset in the future. or just eliminated with cybernetics

Remember, there's a girl in the Merc-Town Book who will be imprisoned or killed JUST for "allowing" herself to be Mind Controlled by a Vampire, so I'm going to make a logical guess that if she's facing death for non-visible Mind Control, a bunch of guys who come back covered in highly decorative Magical Tattoos from the CS's worst enemy.....

[Rallan]

Others could go to the bio-wizard transformation vats to become elves, dwarves, or supernatural beings.

How would the CS respond?

/Sub

Fabricate a story about how the troops were massacred in a dastardly terrorist attack by <insert enemy you want to mobilise public opinion against here>. Then kill them all and make sure nobody ever finds out what the Splugorth did to them. The last thing you want is for the general public to hear about a thousand soldiers being magically transformed into monsters.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

sure the coalition haters would like to think the cs would kill them, but the cs might take in account how well they served and if they could be an asset in the future. or just eliminated with cybernetics

Remember, there's a girl in the Merc-Town Book who will be imprisoned or killed JUST for "allowing" herself to be Mind Controlled by a Vampire, so I'm going to make a logical guess that if she's facing death for non-visible Mind Control, a bunch of guys who come back covered in highly decorative Magical Tattoos from the CS's worst enemy.....

leaving two colonels, the general, ten captains, and fifteen hundred grunts as captives.

as we all know how great prosek speech writer is, and if the soldiers are still loyal to the coalition, you might see a black op CS t-man force operating other side cs lands

[Vrykolas2k]

sure the coalition haters would like to think the cs would kill them, but the cs might take in account how well they served and if they could be an asset in the future. or just eliminated with cybernetics

Remember, there's a girl in the Merc-Town Book who will be imprisoned or killed JUST for "allowing" herself to be Mind Controlled by a Vampire, so I'm going to make a logical guess that if she's facing death for non-visible Mind Control, a bunch of guys who come back covered in highly decorative Magical Tattoos from the CS's worst enemy.....

leaving two colonels, the general, ten captains, and fifteen hundred grunts as captives.

as we all know how great prosek speech writer is, and if the soldiers are still loyal to the coalition, you might see a black op CS t-man force operating other side cs lands

No.

[Library Ogre]

My bet is that it would come down to who found them, and how they recontacted the Coalition. If they had good records prior to being captured, and contacted the Coalition through back channels, Joseph might funnel them to his contacts in the Vanguard. If they try to return as conquering heroes, however, it will be a lot harder to bury them, and they'll have to kill them, publicly.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

sure the coalition haters would like to think the cs would kill them, but the cs might take in account how well they served and if they could be an asset in the future. or just eliminated with cybernetics

Remember, there's a girl in the Merc-Town Book who will be imprisoned or killed JUST for "allowing" herself to be Mind Controlled by a Vampire, so I'm going to make a logical guess that if she's facing death for non-visible Mind Control, a bunch of guys who come back covered in highly decorative Magical Tattoos from the CS's worst enemy.....

leaving two colonels, the general, ten captains, and fifteen hundred grunts as captives.

as we all know how great prosek speech writer is, and if the soldiers are still loyal to the coalition, you might see a black op CS t-man force operating other side cs lands

No.

one thing about Prosek and the Coalition yes the coalition is going to kill over 1500 troops , even Prosek isnt that stupid, he is more liking to praise them and send them with a wink and a nod with help thru other channels and i'm not talking about Karl.

[Nekira Sudacne]

(Everyone would be labeled hero's as most of them died fighting the evil plague that haunts the earth.) The CS Elite would never kill a Gen. and I would imagine they would never unless under extreme circumstances worse then this kill the two Colonels, depending on the Officers and Enlisted's connections, influences and families. I also imagine there would be the ones that would "Myst" there own body parts to get rid of the tattoo.. When I think about this situation I think something along the lines of what happened to Col. Larsen would happen.. A cover up, they would all be proclaimed hero's. The ones that could be saved would be. And the rest would have been said to die fighting for the people.

Sure they'd kill 'em. That's the thing about politics. All your friends turn on you the instant you become more of a liability and there's no way to simply disapear the problem.

[Nekira Sudacne]

sure the coalition haters would like to think the cs would kill them, but the cs might take in account how well they served and if they could be an asset in the future. or just eliminated with cybernetics

assuming they were done on the arm and something not as removable. Like the head.

and I LOVE the coalition, but I still think they're a group of murdering bastards.

Nekira Sudacne -- Can appriciate Pure Evil done Well.

[dark brandon]

Depends

They would probably be thanked, debriefed and then have their status as CS removed. With a heavy heart the emperor would thank god for their return, but their existence could cause a breach in defenses. But, as long as they are not a problem for CS they wouldn't be hunted. CS would probably use them as an alternate source of power, like Larson.

See, thing about CS, they don't do evil to be evil (they arn't demons). If there's a way The emperor can use this to make the people love him even more, he's going to use it. A few soldiers they may mist, or put them into some hiding program, but this many soldiers are going to have a large number of family members. By showing a bit of generosity to humans who of no fault of their own are changed and using them as a merc group who do not interfere with their plans they would be allowed to live. Now the soldiers family members are happy their loved ones are alive, and while changed are not killed by CS will praise the CS on a much grander lvl than before.

[Lenwen]

Simple. Karl's son would have them all sent to CS Lone Star an let Desmond Bradford have his way with them all the while acclaiming them all as National Hero's . While out there Karl's son (cant remember his name atm ) would also allow Desmond to experiment on them , Desmond would then have them do seek an destroy missions for him an possibly start his very own Vendetta Army against the Pacos Empire . Not a single faction in Lone Star would think these Supernatural Beings are actually under CS leadership . The Perfect reason to season up this brigade size force . After some time of seasoning them up Desmond Briefs Karls son on thier abilities , powers . At which time Karl's son decides to use this new power under his own leadership to start a new campaign of terror against OTHER magic using communities . As was said who would put the connection together . Esp after thier all outfitted with merc style weapons an gear from other manufacturer's . All the while telling that brigade that thier now on the CS top secret program thus improving thier overall moral . The CS would easily be able to spin this into something of HUGE gain . The TOP officials in CS are not stupid enough to let something like this simply slip threw thier hands . Least not that I would think .

-Lenwen.

[KLM]

I guess, this scenario would present many volunteers to
full borg (and maybe juicer) conversion.

And that is marketed as a victory of human science over
alien magic.

Adios
KLM

[Rallan]

Depends

They would probably be thanked, debriefed and then have their status as CS removed. With a heavy heart the emperor would thank god for their return, but their existence could cause a breach in defenses. But, as long as they are not a problem for CS they wouldn't be hunted. CS would probably use them as an alternate source of power, like Larson.

See, thing about CS, they don't do evil to be evil (they arn't demons). If there's a way The emperor can use this to make the people love him even more, he's going to use it. A few soldiers they may mist, or put them into some hiding program, but this many soldiers are going to have a large number of family members. By showing a bit of generosity to humans who of no fault of their own are changed and using them as a merc group who do not interfere with their plans they would be allowed to live. Now the soldiers family members are happy their loved ones are alive, and while changed are not killed by CS will praise the CS on a much grander lvl than before.

Nah they're dead men, because if they're left alive they pose a threat to law and order. If you cashier 1500 soldiers out and strip them of their citizenship, it's not going to take long for every man and his dog to know that a CS garrison of 3000 men was wiped out by an enemy too powerful for the Coalition to retaliate against, and that the 1500 survivors have been magically transformed into freaks (and just how freaky they are will grow with every retelling). Karl and Joseph and the top brass and the boys in intelligence will probably all be in agreement that the simplest and least painful solution to this entire debacle is to quietly take all 1500 out back and shoot 'em, and then send their loved ones the tragic news that their son/brother/husband/whatever is missing presumed dead after a patrol he was on got ambushed.

Plus the CS is evil. The books are refreshingly honest and up front about just how evil the top brass actually are. While the three thousand poor bastards who get butchered or transformed by the Splugorth are likely to be no nastier than any other collection of soldiers (well, apart from the bit where a large chunk of them honestly believe that genocide is totally cool and shooting D-bees is as necessary and as trivial as killing vermin), the bigwigs who'll be making decisions about how to handle this mess are stone cold badasses. You know, the sort of stone cold badasses you'd expect to be in charge of an Evil Empire.

If they're lucky, the survivors might just get shipped off to a secure facility for some severe "reeducation" before being turned into full conversion cyborgs, and only the ones who fail the psych evaluation or who've been too thoroughly transformed by biowizardry will be liquidated. More than likely, the whole fifteen hundred of 'em will be quietly taken out to the middle of nowhere and shot by the boys from Intelligence, just to make sure word of what happened to them never gets out.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i think most of you forget this plays right into the Coalition hands.

"see what the island of monsters and demons did to our fine outstanding brave soldiers, now just think what they would do to your children?"

[ShadowLogan]

In pursuit of that goal, he starts capturing large numbers of CS personnel and giving them tattoos. Some get the tat on their arm and some get it on their head or torso.

How would the CS respond to this, assuming it was known as being involuntary?

Secondary questions would be: how the captured CS personnel would react to the magical tats? And how many are we talking per individual? (as above 6 they become M.D.C.).

If the CS solider became MDC, could they even recieve full cybernetic/bionic reconstruction sucessfully? (I realize they might be able to get new limbs).

I think they CS would already have declared them dead when they where captured. So if they turned up, sweeping them under the rug would not be to difficult. As they are already "dead" and if they return with magic auras, they likely would not be viewed as human anymore. Shoot first and ask questions later.

The CS Tats would be faced with some tough choices even before release:
-do they destroy themselves in an act to "preseve" their humanity?
-do they become hypocrits to an extent and live on either using/not using them
-do they surive long enough to get cybernetic replacements. And will they use their tats to further that end or not.
-do they even attempt to return to the CS knowing they will likely be shot on sight as being inhuman

[rat_bastard]

There are a great deal of variables here

the first is what kind of and how many tattoos.

I think we are going to assume one each and something pretty (relatively) useless like sdc quarterstaff. Implanting too many tats would result in insane troops which while fun are not all that subtle and implanting useful tats is a waste of resources.

then it depends largely on who was captured and how they go about contacting the CS. If they have the bold son of the right family and they radio their situation to the right officers then they will be picked up and taken to labs where they will be studied thoroughly and borderline humanly. If they just try to find the first CS base they can find then they may get warning shots, or killed outright. The CS would never openly use "tainted" troops, but they might use them in an unofficial basis.

[Rallan]

i think most of you forget this plays right into the Coalition hands.

"see what the island of monsters and demons did to our fine outstanding brave soldiers, now just think what they would do to your children?"

Nah. A handful of CS soldiers getting turned into monsters would play right into their hands. You can have some footage of the poor bastards being depressed, use the media to whip up a sense of moral outrage, convince the public that revenge is a dish best served hot, and bomb the perpetrators (or some poor scapegoats) into oblivion. That way it rams home the message that Outside is dangerous, magic and aliens are bad, and the CS has both the means and the mettle to fight back these perverted invaders.

But a garrison of three thousand men being taken out, and the fifteen hundred survivors all being magically transformed? That sorta implies that there's enemies out there big enough to kick the Coalition's ass six ways to sunday, and that's not an impression the CS wants to give its people. The world is supposed to be dangerous and evil, sure, but Uncle Karl is supposed to be big enough and badass enough to fend it off. The idea of an uber-powerful force from across the sea being able to waltz in and do this would challenge the very foundation of a lot of CS propaganda. It'd also be hellaciously bad for morale both in the military and among the public. It'd give the impression that all the hard work and sacrifice of the common soldier is ultimately futile, because somewhere out there is an enemy who could crush the Coalition if it wanted to.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i think most of you forget this plays right into the Coalition hands.

"see what the island of monsters and demons did to our fine outstanding brave soldiers, now just think what they would do to your children?"

Nah. A handful of CS soldiers getting turned into monsters would play right into their hands. You can have some footage of the poor bastards being depressed, use the media to whip up a sense of moral outrage, convince the public that revenge is a dish best served hot, and bomb the perpetrators (or some poor scapegoats) into oblivion. That way it rams home the message that Outside is dangerous, magic and aliens are bad, and the CS has both the means and the mettle to fight back these perverted invaders.

But a garrison of three thousand men being taken out, and the fifteen hundred survivors all being magically transformed? That sorta implies that there's enemies out there big enough to kick the Coalition's ass six ways to sunday, and that's not an impression the CS wants to give its people. The world is supposed to be dangerous and evil, sure, but Uncle Karl is supposed to be big enough and badass enough to fend it off. The idea of an uber-powerful force from across the sea being able to waltz in and do this would challenge the very foundation of a lot of CS propaganda. It'd also be hellaciously bad for morale both in the military and among the public. It'd give the impression that all the hard work and sacrifice of the common soldier is ultimately futile, because somewhere out there is an enemy who could crush the Coalition if it wanted to.

please give quotes and pages

[dark brandon]

Nah they're dead men, because if they're left alive they pose a threat to law and order. If you cashier 1500 soldiers out and strip them of their citizenship, it's not going to take long for every man and his dog to know that a CS garrison of 3000 men was wiped out by an enemy too powerful for the Coalition to retaliate against, and that the 1500 survivors have been magically transformed into freaks (and just how freaky they are will grow with every retelling). Karl and Joseph and the top brass and the boys in intelligence will probably all be in agreement that the simplest and least painful solution to this entire debacle is to quietly take all 1500 out back and shoot 'em, and then send their loved ones the tragic news that their son/brother/husband/whatever is missing presumed dead after a patrol he was on got ambushed.

Disagree. CS thrives on knowing it has powerful enemies. This makes you're point moot.

Plus the CS is evil. The books are refreshingly honest and up front about just how evil the top brass actually are. While the three thousand poor bastards who get butchered or transformed by the Splugorth are likely to be no nastier than any other collection of soldiers (well, apart from the bit where a large chunk of them honestly believe that genocide is totally cool and shooting D-bees is as necessary and as trivial as killing vermin), the bigwigs who'll be making decisions about how to handle this mess are stone cold badasses. You know, the sort of stone cold badasses you'd expect to be in charge of an Evil Empire.

There are many ways to be evil. Mindlessly evil isn't effective, which is exctly what you're suggesting here.

If they're lucky, the survivors might just get shipped off to a secure facility for some severe "reeducation" before being turned into full conversion cyborgs, and only the ones who fail the psych evaluation or who've been too thoroughly transformed by biowizardry will be liquidated. More than likely, the whole fifteen hundred of 'em will be quietly taken out to the middle of nowhere and shot by the boys from Intelligence, just to make sure word of what happened to them never gets out.

What reeducation? Reeducation is left for those who conspire against the CS. They may be turned into full conversion borgs, which is a definate possibility, and may be an option/requirement.

[Shadyslug]

The Vanguard would approach a few of them and see if they can be brought into the guard.

The rest...CS would either imprison them or kill them.

Think about it...from a security aspect, you don't know what these soldiers have been "reprogrammed" to do. You have to assume that it would be a gigantic security breach, because of the information that the Colonels would have had (or any other soldier with high clearance).

Overall...it's a bad bad situation for both the CS leadership and these soldiers.

There is NO way that the CS would bring them home...period.

[Vrykolas2k]

The Vanguard would approach a few of them and see if they can be brought into the guard.

The rest...CS would either imprison them or kill them.

Think about it...from a security aspect, you don't know what these soldiers have been "reprogrammed" to do. You have to assume that it would be a gigantic security breach, because of the information that the Colonels would have had (or any other soldier with high clearance).

Overall...it's a bad bad situation for both the CS leadership and these soldiers.

There is NO way that the CS would bring them home...period.

Pretty much.
The smart ones would likely join Braddock's Bad Boys or Larson's Brigade.
The stupid ones would be... disappeared.
Those CS crops must be fertilized with something, after all.

[Rallan]

Nah they're dead men, because if they're left alive they pose a threat to law and order. If you cashier 1500 soldiers out and strip them of their citizenship, it's not going to take long for every man and his dog to know that a CS garrison of 3000 men was wiped out by an enemy too powerful for the Coalition to retaliate against, and that the 1500 survivors have been magically transformed into freaks (and just how freaky they are will grow with every retelling). Karl and Joseph and the top brass and the boys in intelligence will probably all be in agreement that the simplest and least painful solution to this entire debacle is to quietly take all 1500 out back and shoot 'em, and then send their loved ones the tragic news that their son/brother/husband/whatever is missing presumed dead after a patrol he was on got ambushed.

Disagree. CS thrives on knowing it has powerful enemies. This makes you're point moot.

No it thrives on knowing that it lives in a dangerous world. I know you're getting sick of Nazi Germany comparisons, but this one's particularly apt: much like the Third Reich, the CS is a nation that's got paranoia and hope in equal measure. Paranoia because they're surrounded by enemies and have to be ever vigilant, and hope because they've got the technology, the leadership, and the will to triumph. And while that requires you to give the people the impression that your enemies are dangerous, you don't want them to get the idea that the enemy is too dangerous. Demonic raiders who do something bad and get their asses kicked for it is good. Citystates that defy the will of the CS but are too scared to openly go to war with it are good. Letting the people find out about an unbeatable empire of monsters on magic continent who can strike whenever they want to and have nothing to fear from the puny Coalition States? That'd be pretty sucky for morale right there.

If they're lucky, the survivors might just get shipped off to a secure facility for some severe "reeducation" before being turned into full conversion cyborgs, and only the ones who fail the psych evaluation or who've been too thoroughly transformed by biowizardry will be liquidated. More than likely, the whole fifteen hundred of 'em will be quietly taken out to the middle of nowhere and shot by the boys from Intelligence, just to make sure word of what happened to them never gets out.

What reeducation? Reeducation is left for those who conspire against the CS. They may be turned into full conversion borgs, which is a definate possibility, and may be an option/requirement.[/quote]

They've been turned into freaks in an incident the CS wouldn't want anyone to ever hear about. If they're gonna let any of these political liabilities live to see the light of day again, they're gonna have to make damn sure that the dudes know better than to accidentally let the truth out.

And I mean really, this isn't so horribly unbelievable behavior from a totalitarian dictatorship that runs on a messed up ideology. Just look at what Stalin did to thousands upon thousands of his own soldiers when they were liberated from German POW camps at the end of world war two. He had tens of thousands of 'em shipped en masse to Siberian gulags just to make sure they didn't go corrupting the Soviet Union with any capitalist or fascist ideology that they might've picked up in the company of the enemy. And Stalin, while he was one of history's greatest butchers, wasn't even pretty sane and stable by the standards of ruthless mass-murdering dictators.

[dark brandon]

No it thrives on knowing that it lives in a dangerous world. I know you're getting sick of Nazi Germany comparisons, but this one's particularly apt: much like the Third Reich, the CS is a nation that's got paranoia and hope in equal measure. Paranoia because they're surrounded by enemies and have to be ever vigilant, and hope because they've got the technology, the leadership, and the will to triumph. And while that requires you to give the people the impression that your enemies are dangerous, you don't want them to get the idea that the enemy is too dangerous. Demonic raiders who do something bad and get their asses kicked for it is good. Citystates that defy the will of the CS but are too scared to openly go to war with it are good. Letting the people find out about an unbeatable empire of monsters on magic continent who can strike whenever they want to and have nothing to fear from the puny Coalition States? That'd be pretty sucky for morale right there.

That's if they claimed to be unbeatable in the first place. This falls into the circumstance section. How much did they see, how much do they know? I agree those that come back bantering about the "Unbeatable" splugorth would probably face extermination or reeducation. Others might find it as a renewed source of insperation. Undeniable proof of what the CS does is right.

They've been turned into freaks in an incident the CS wouldn't want anyone to ever hear about. If they're gonna let any of these political liabilities live to see the light of day again, they're gonna have to make damn sure that the dudes know better than to accidentally let the truth out.

And I mean really, this isn't so horribly unbelievable behavior from a totalitarian dictatorship that runs on a messed up ideology. Just look at what Stalin did to thousands upon thousands of his own soldiers when they were liberated from German POW camps at the end of world war two. He had tens of thousands of 'em shipped en masse to Siberian gulags just to make sure they didn't go corrupting the Soviet Union with any capitalist or fascist ideology that they might've picked up in the company of the enemy. And Stalin, while he was one of history's greatest butchers, wasn't even pretty sane and stable by the standards of ruthless mass-murdering dictators.

It isn't horribly unbelieveable, just not a course I think the CS would take first. At least not with so many men. The PR if they were found out would have energy better spent in other ways.

[Rallan]

It isn't horribly unbelieveable, just not a course I think the CS would take first. At least not with so many men. The PR if they were found out would have energy better spent in other ways.

So what exactly is the CS going to do with 1500 men who've been incurably transformed into supernatural beings? Repatriate them into a society that's been trained to think of of them as evil freaks? Cancel their citizenship and hope none of them decide to use their new superpowers to get payback on the nation that abandoned them? Every last one of them is commiting a capital crime just by existing.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

It isn't horribly unbelieveable, just not a course I think the CS would take first. At least not with so many men. The PR if they were found out would have energy better spent in other ways.

So what exactly is the CS going to do with 1500 men who've been incurably transformed into supernatural beings? Repatriate them into a society that's been trained to think of of them as evil freaks? Cancel their citizenship and hope none of them decide to use their new superpowers to get payback on the nation that abandoned them? Every last one of them is commiting a capital crime just by existing.

Knowing Karl something that would show how human he is and have the people love him even more and get alot more recruits out of it.

[Blight]

Um doesn't anyone ever play the CS special expeditionary forces. Loyal troop that use all non CS equipment. They travel the world gathering info and furthering the CS cause. No one knowing they answer to CS. These men would, after a good PSI Battalion debrief, be perfect for this assignment.

[dark brandon]

It isn't horribly unbelieveable, just not a course I think the CS would take first. At least not with so many men. The PR if they were found out would have energy better spent in other ways.

So what exactly is the CS going to do with 1500 men who've been incurably transformed into supernatural beings? Repatriate them into a society that's been trained to think of of them as evil freaks? Cancel their citizenship and hope none of them decide to use their new superpowers to get payback on the nation that abandoned them? Every last one of them is commiting a capital crime just by existing.

If it wasn't so many, I do agree either full conversion borg or misting them.

Situation is also going to dictate how he reacts.

The best senario for the soldiers is that Karl uses them. He has to revoke their citizen ship, possibly ban them from CS territory. He isn't a blind fool, and killing that many soldiers for whatever reason is going to make the public sadden and even worse a loss of moral. By banishing them, but letting them live will win more hearts of CS public or at least better solidify his grasp on them. Not only that, who says CS has to abandon them. They could still use them and as long as they are of use, CS will use them.

Actually now that I think about it, while they may be abandoned, CS may use them by sending them into splynn to spy on them. Normal humans wouldn't stand a chance, but a tattoo man, well, that may work. In fact I think this senario is probably most likely.

THese men are not like mages who willingly learned magic. They would fall probably under the same line as psionics.

[Kelorin]

No, they didn't voluntarily get all 'magicked' up. But soldiers & civilians that get bitten & turned in zombies in most Zombie movies involuntarily are treated the same way. Dangerous threats that need to be put down.

I don't think that even Splynncryth would go through the effort to capture that large a number of troops, give them tatoos, then release them again, just for personal amusement. Which means they are likely to mind-controlled, or have bio-wizard, or Zombitron implants to take control of of the whole unit a critical time.

The CS is also paranoid enough to believe that visible tatoos constitute 'marking' at the least & total subversion at the worst. The safest thing the CS can do under the circumstances is wipe out the whole unit. Preferably, quietly and far away from CS territory.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

No, they didn't voluntarily get all 'magicked' up. But soldiers & civilians that get bitten & turned in zombies in most Zombie movies involuntarily are treated the same way. Dangerous threats that need to be put down.

I don't think that even Splynncryth would go through the effort to capture that large a number of troops, give them tatoos, then release them again, just for personal amusement. Which means they are likely to mind-controlled, or have bio-wizard, or Zombitron implants to take control of of the whole unit a critical time.

The CS is also paranoid enough to believe that visible tatoos constitute 'marking' at the least & total subversion at the worst. The safest thing the CS can do under the circumstances is wipe out the whole unit. Preferably, quietly and far away from CS territory.

you do bring some good points but like you said "The CS is also paranoid" with a number of fail-safes in place to found if the soldier is being controlled by an outside force

[Tor]

OK - imagine that three CS colonels, a general, twenty-seven captains (army), and three thousand grunts are captured in a slaver hit to a minor CS base. Half die, leaving two colonels, the general, ten captains, and fifteen hundred grunts as captives.

Splynncryth giggles and has his tattoo masters. Soon, you have a whole boatload of CS military folks that are now effectively mages that are then released to do as they will. Some will inevitably return to their bases and families, who find out that they are incurably magical in nature. Some can have their arms or the like amputated, but they at least *were* magical.

Have any explicit CS attitudes about magical tattoos actually been expressed?

I can't see them any problem with people whose tattoos were amputated...

I also think they could be easily forgiving for those who had 1-5 since they would remain SDC.

The real drama would be MDC humans who have 6+. I think if the CS had any chance of accepting them back into the fold, it would mandate removing enough SDCs to bring them down to at most 5 to make them non-MDC.

It might also depend on the nature of tattoos. Tattoos which can summon animals/monsters/weapons or any obvious 'powers' (shooting lightning bolts, etc) would have to be cut off as well. I'm not sure if the CS would have a problem with "Two Weapons Crossed" (it just makes you better with weapons, doesn't create anything) or subtle power tattoos like:
*chain encircling skull
*cross
*eye with tears (basically just mimicking a psychic)
*eyes: three
*heart pierced by stake
*thorns

I mean... do magic tattoos in use register to Psi-Stalkers the same way that spells do?

Do people with tats register as magic items?

Some get the tat on their arm and some get it on their head or torso. How would the CS respond to this, assuming it was known as being involuntary?

They've been corrupted by evil and need to be killed to keep the infection from spreading, like a virulent plauge. Not much of a question really.

Seems a tad extreme to me, you could quell the evil corrupting infection through amputation, don't have to go as far as murder. Even if someone had tattoos on their face you could just cut off their face, make them a cyborg. Purify the magic pestilence by embracing tech.

The CS does NOT kill troops who get too friendly with debees, Cannon books talk about the great lenghts that the CS coes through to "rehabilitate" troops humainly with counseling.

Isn't that what happened with Drogue? Made him kill his old D-bee gang buddies? CS has strong empathy

The CS is also paranoid enough to believe that visible tatoos constitute 'marking' at the least & total subversion at the worst.

Considering they accept Psi-Stalkers who are more different than someone with 1-5 tats (albeit the 6+ are weirder) I don't think they're THAT paranoid and would probably research it a bit.

I don't think they would embrace it but I think they would find rehab options short of murder for humans in this situation, prosthetics being the most probable.

Problems might arise if the person was not open about what was done to them though (ie not tell anyone about the tats, try to secretly use them, etc). This depending on their nature, of course. Something that could mimic empathic transmission is a higher risk to humanity than something which prevents a vampire from mind-controlling you.

If the CS did allow limited use, even of benign resist-mind-control stuff, it would never be allowed to be public because that would be seen as relying on mysticism.

[Blue_Lion]

They would no longer be considered part of the CS any unit encountering them would treat them as they would any magic user. Although the CS does not like mages there is some variations in the reactions based on the conditions. Some CS units have even at times worked with mages to stop a greater threat.

[Tor]

I think there's a difference between "any magic user" and a CS soldier subjected to magical abilities against their will. Although it's doubtful that Karl would be as nice with magical humans as his dad was with the gentle send-off the Vanguard got, there's also a big difference between a magically-tatted human and something like a mystic who will continue to grow in power and learn new spells.

I could see them being barred from the CS until they get it removed, but I think the CS military would aid (perhaps fully pay for) the removal and replacement of any limbs affected by the tattoos, including plastic surgery if it were done to the face. Though they might mandate (or strongly encourage) being changed into a Combat Cyborg to cover the costs.

[Library Ogre]

Official response: If you can't cure them, kill them.
Unofficial response: Debrief, and then if you can't cure them, kill them.
Secret response: Debrief, and if you can't cure them, funnel to secret pro-CS forces that work outside the limitations... or kill them.

The CS are fanatics. They don't react in what might be seen as a logical way, nor are they likely to be swayed by compassion. Some of the higher ups are swayed by UTILITY, and so make exceptions for magic, regardless of their personal feelings.

[flatline]

Are there any invocations with long or permanent durations that cause someone to appear as magical to dog boy senses? Tattoos would certainly work, but require more investment than simply casting spells on people.

--flatline

[ShadowLogan]

Are there any invocations with long or permanent durations that cause someone to appear as magical to dog boy senses? Tattoos would certainly work, but require more investment than simply casting spells on people.

--flatline

What do you define as "long duration" though.

Transferal Spell would qualify IINM as the target is now home to all that PPE. 1hr per level.

Magical afflictions (Minor Curse ex) would be another source for long duration spells.

What about instant spells that heal wounds (or even resurrect)? Do they qualify as "long term" since the magic doesn't wear off, or does the magic only influence things for a short period of time before a "natural" state returns?

[FatherMorpheus]

The whole idea is hilarious to me. It would be come even more funny, if it wasn't Lord Splynncryth but one of his rival Splugorth. While I agree with the idea that the CS would execute the soldiers in some quick, painless and secret fashion, what would the CS do after this? What if it was clearly blamed on Splynncryth? Would this launch the CS towards mores more direct action against the Lord of Atlantis? Perhaps this would be instigating item which would start a new war?

Oh, and another interesting question, how many of the CS Soldiers would commit suicide due to the brainwashing they have had drilled into their heads?

[flatline]

Are there any invocations with long or permanent durations that cause someone to appear as magical to dog boy senses? Tattoos would certainly work, but require more investment than simply casting spells on people.

--flatline

What do you define as "long duration" though.

Transferal Spell would qualify IINM as the target is now home to all that PPE. 1hr per level.

Magical afflictions (Minor Curse ex) would be another source for long duration spells.

What about instant spells that heal wounds (or even resurrect)? Do they qualify as "long term" since the magic doesn't wear off, or does the magic only influence things for a short period of time before a "natural" state returns?

The idea is to cast some sort of magical effect on CS troops so that they reek of magic long enough that the CS doesn't trust that they haven't been compromised by "the enemy" (whoever that may be). This has two potential benefits:
1. I no longer have to kill a soldier to deprive the CS of that soldier. I just have to make the CS not trust that soldier so that they "dispose" of him somehow.
2. If the CS doesn't kill the effected soldiers but still allows them to remain, then that makes it harder for psi-stalkers and dogboys to identify magic since these soldiers will interfere (see the description of how multiple sources of magic are confusing to the dogboy and stalker senses).

Preferably effects that have a duration of at least days or weeks. The longer the better. Permanent is ideal.

--flatline

[Sureshot]

Whatever the CS decides to do it will amount to nothing. Atlantis can and will crush the CS. Don't think for a second that if the CS decides to go up against Atlantis that other human factions will back them up imo. If Splugorth attacks it's one thing. Then enemies will join forces most likely. Otherwise even with the Vanguard they will make a good fight then get smashed and very easy I might add.

The corrupted troops will most likely be killed off in secret. While being used as propaganda bonanza by Joseph II. Those that can be saved will be. Chances are good that their options for survival are limited.

[Library Ogre]

Whatever the CS decides to do it will amount to nothing. Atlantis can and will crush the CS. Don't think for a second that if the CS decides to go up against Atlantis that other human factions will back them up imo. If Splugorth attacks it's one thing. Then enemies will join forces most likely. Otherwise even with the Vanguard they will make a good fight then get smashed and very easy I might add.

Said it before, and I'll say it again: The only reason Splynn doesn't control space is he doesn't want to. And with space-based weapons, he can do whatever he likes to the CS.

The corrupted troops will most likely be killed off in secret. While being used as propaganda bonanza by Joseph II. Those that can be saved will be. Chances are good that their options for survival are limited.

Raises an interesting question... is there a psionic way to counter curses and the like?

[Subjugator]

I thought of what the CS could do that would not kill their soldiers (since they were unwilling targets of such a curse)...they could transform 'em into full conversion borgs.

[ShadowLogan]

Are there any invocations with long or permanent durations that cause someone to appear as magical to dog boy senses? Tattoos would certainly work, but require more investment than simply casting spells on people.

--flatline

What do you define as "long duration" though.

Transferal Spell would qualify IINM as the target is now home to all that PPE. 1hr per level.

Magical afflictions (Minor Curse ex) would be another source for long duration spells.

What about instant spells that heal wounds (or even resurrect)? Do they qualify as "long term" since the magic doesn't wear off, or does the magic only influence things for a short period of time before a "natural" state returns?

The idea is to cast some sort of magical effect on CS troops so that they reek of magic long enough that the CS doesn't trust that they haven't been compromised by "the enemy" (whoever that may be). This has two potential benefits:
1. I no longer have to kill a soldier to deprive the CS of that soldier. I just have to make the CS not trust that soldier so that they "dispose" of him somehow.
2. If the CS doesn't kill the effected soldiers but still allows them to remain, then that makes it harder for psi-stalkers and dogboys to identify magic since these soldiers will interfere (see the description of how multiple sources of magic are confusing to the dogboy and stalker senses).

Preferably effects that have a duration of at least days or weeks. The longer the better. Permanent is ideal.

--flatline

There are very few options then that are actually applicable:
-Transferral (measured in hours though, so unless there is some way to boost the duration not what you are looking for short of a very high level mage)
-Curse of the World Bizzare (Level 11) 1d4days per level, though this one may backfire as the target will see his comrades differently and could react negatively
-Memory Bank (Level 6) is 3months per level (magically inserted memory, host doesn't know what's there, but since it's magical and it has a duration I would think they would radiate magic)
-Minor Curse (Level is 24hrs per level. and to boot you can put the target at negatives to actions.

Tattoo and Bio-Wizardry are also options, but require capture and release (though at least with Bio-Wizardry you might be able to make a mutation gun).

If you don't want to target the solider directly, you might be able to plant items on their person (eg. cheap Talisman, Amulets) or otherwise enchant equipment to radiate magic would have some other options IINM. Though here it has to be done carefully to have the desired effect since troops (given the Black Vault) do recover magic items.

A rather annoying factor might be to spam Magic Pigeons (20 PPE, trivial if on a Ley Line IIRC) to send messages to CS troops, even outside the battlefield. The trick is getting the name(s) of said troop(s) to harass. Messages should be designed to invoke mistrust in the target(s) by their fellows.

Another might be to convert dead CS soliders into Zombies (or mummies, Zombies i think would be more recognizable) and send them back to base with appropriate illusions in place (either additional magic or makeup). As a Zombie they should radiate magic I would suspect, and if the CS doesn't know they are dead

[flatline]

-Memory Bank (Level 6) is 3months per level (magically inserted memory, host doesn't know what's there, but since it's magical and it has a duration I would think they would radiate magic)

This seems like the best candidate so far based on the duration. The other spells will elapse after a week or two of quarantine. If the CS is willing to quarantine soldiers for years to see if the magical effect expires, then that's a great resource and morale drain.

There's no question that the dogboys can identify soldiers under a magical effect, but can they actually tell that it's Memory Bank and not some more potent effect like Compulsion? A quick scan of their senses and the psychic powers available to them seems to indicate that they can't tell the difference. This is a good thing for anyone wanting to employ this type of tactic.

A rather annoying factor might be to spam Magic Pigeons (20 PPE, trivial if on a Ley Line IIRC) to send messages to CS troops, even outside the battlefield. The trick is getting the name(s) of said troop(s) to harass. Messages should be designed to invoke mistrust in the target(s) by their fellows.

In previous threads, I've spoken about how I expect the Burbs and the exterior of each fortress city to be teaming with Magic Pigeons attempting to give messages to people inside the city. Having lots of magical things in and around CS territory reduces the effectiveness of dogboys in sniffing out mages and such since their senses become confused.

It seems like the enemies of the CS would want to take advantage of this. And any mage or supernatural critter attempting to live in the burbs would benefit from planting magical effects and/or items as often as possible to make it easier for them to remain hidden. Eternal Flame is another great spell for this.

Hmm...a TW device that merges magic pigeon with eternal flame could totally cover the Burbs in magical fire given enough time...

--flatline

[Sureshot]

I thought of what the CS could do that would not kill their soldiers (since they were unwilling targets of such a curse)...they could transform 'em into full conversion borgs.

A possible solution. Yet also a grisly one at that. Think about going from human to machine is probably not a easy thing to do imo. It might be the only way. That being said it may also may not be enough.