Holy water

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Hawk258
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Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

Could someone assist me in finding the books and pages relating to holy water creation? Please and thank you
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by eliakon »

Hawk258 wrote:Could someone assist me in finding the books and pages relating to holy water creation? Please and thank you

In Rifts the only way I am familiar with is Herbal Magic using the herbs Oak and Rue.
Oak
England page 30 or Book of Magic page 282
Rue
England page 31 or Book of Magic page 282

Palladium Fantasy has Priests of Light page 63. On page 65 is the special prayer "blessing of water" which transforms ordinary water into holy water. No volume is given, and the prayer is not found in the Rifts Priest.

Hope this help.s
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

eliakon wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:Could someone assist me in finding the books and pages relating to holy water creation? Please and thank you

In Rifts the only way I am familiar with is Herbal Magic using the herbs Oak and Rue.
Oak
England page 30 or Book of Magic page 282
Rue
England page 31 or Book of Magic page 282

Palladium Fantasy has Priests of Light page 63. On page 65 is the special prayer "blessing of water" which transforms ordinary water into holy water. No volume is given, and the prayer is not found in the Rifts Priest.

Hope this help.s


It does as the limits, amounts are not listed and only components listed implies huge vats of water can be made "holy" as a large pile of oak shavings and a few words from an herbalist could do that easily.
When I post an idea, game balance is my only concern. For rules see rule zero and for canon look at RUE PAGE 372. Only 2 questions need consideration is it fun? Is it balanced?

Gamblers fallacy:(Example): Coin flips are the most common example of the gambler's fallacy. For instance, in a game of heads or tails, many people will bet on tails if there have been several heads in a row.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by eliakon »

Hawk258 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:Could someone assist me in finding the books and pages relating to holy water creation? Please and thank you

In Rifts the only way I am familiar with is Herbal Magic using the herbs Oak and Rue.
Oak
England page 30 or Book of Magic page 282
Rue
England page 31 or Book of Magic page 282

Palladium Fantasy has Priests of Light page 63. On page 65 is the special prayer "blessing of water" which transforms ordinary water into holy water. No volume is given, and the prayer is not found in the Rifts Priest.

Hope this help.s


It does as the limits, amounts are not listed and only components listed implies huge vats of water can be made "holy" as a large pile of oak shavings and a few words from an herbalist could do that easily.

Its 20 PPE per vial. So sure you could make it in industrial quantities... but you will need industrial quantities of PPE to do that.
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Re: Holy water

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eliakon wrote:In Rifts the only way I am familiar with is Herbal Magic using the herbs Oak and Rue.
Palladium Fantasy has Priests of Light page 63. On page 65 is the special prayer "blessing of water" which transforms ordinary water into holy water. No volume is given, and the prayer is not found in the Rifts Priest.

PRPGp141 mentions under "4. Material needed" for EXORCISM "holy water (water blessed by a high priest/sixth level of higher), water sprinkler" for comparison.

Interestingly, as far as I can tell, page 179-180 "VAMPIRES (THE UNDEAD)" didn't include any water vulnerabilities at all. The closest is "holy symbols, holy weapons". Symbols hold them at bay like garlic and Holy weapons damage them like magic weapons.

It appears that Vampire Kingdoms might've been where water vulnerabilities were introduced for vampires, despite not introducing any water of actually making water holy until WB3 as you've pointed out.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:
eliakon wrote:In Rifts the only way I am familiar with is Herbal Magic using the herbs Oak and Rue.
Palladium Fantasy has Priests of Light page 63. On page 65 is the special prayer "blessing of water" which transforms ordinary water into holy water. No volume is given, and the prayer is not found in the Rifts Priest.

PRPGp141 mentions under "4. Material needed" for EXORCISM "holy water (water blessed by a high priest/sixth level of higher), water sprinkler" for comparison.

Correct, a priest can bless holy water in Palladium Fantasy... that's not Rifts though.

Axelmania wrote:Interestingly, as far as I can tell, page 179-180 "VAMPIRES (THE UNDEAD)" didn't include any water vulnerabilities at all. The closest is "holy symbols, holy weapons". Symbols hold them at bay like garlic and Holy weapons damage them like magic weapons.

It appears that Vampire Kingdoms might've been where water vulnerabilities were introduced for vampires, despite not introducing any water of actually making water holy until WB3 as you've pointed out.

Also correct. It is not until Vampire Kingdoms and the creation of the VI style of vampire that the generic vulnerability to water comes about. Likely this is because in the early Rifts books many things had odd weaknesses to offset their major strengths.

There may have been sources of Holy Water before WB3. I just am not aware of any.
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Re: Holy water

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WB1p28 mentioned "Holy water is water blessed by a priest whose god(s) is of a scrupulous or principled good alignment, or a god of light"

I couldn't find anything else, but while looking at Water Warlock spells, I came across "Water-Seal" (CBp80, 2nd level) and was curious if that would work on a vampire. It says "any item under forty pounds per level", so the question is whether to draw the line at what is included under 'item' I guess.

"Create Water" mentions "can be effective against vampires", implying you could drop it on them or something since normally stagnant water wouldn't harm them.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

Axelmania wrote:WB1p28 mentioned "Holy water is water blessed by a priest whose god(s) is of a scrupulous or principled good alignment, or a god of light"

I couldn't find anything else, but while looking at Water Warlock spells, I came across "Water-Seal" (CBp80, 2nd level) and was curious if that would work on a vampire. It says "any item under forty pounds per level", so the question is whether to draw the line at what is included under 'item' I guess.

"Create Water" mentions "can be effective against vampires", implying you could drop it on them or something since normally stagnant water wouldn't harm them.


I say yes. Because "motion" is relative. If the vampire moves in the water then its is "moving" across his body.
When I post an idea, game balance is my only concern. For rules see rule zero and for canon look at RUE PAGE 372. Only 2 questions need consideration is it fun? Is it balanced?

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Re: Holy water

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If moving through stagnant water harmed vampires, why bother with phrases like 'running water' if ALL water that contacts a vampire has relative motion and is moving?
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by shadrak »

Axelmania wrote:If moving through stagnant water harmed vampires, why bother with phrases like 'running water' if ALL water that contacts a vampire has relative motion and is moving?



Because way Palladium runs their Vampires is that water has an ablative effect, not an acidic effect...

Water shot from a water pistol and a water balloon hand grenade are hardly "running water" either(you MIGHT be able to consider a Sooper Soaker running water, but Palladium includes even the small hand held water pistols), yet Palladium gives both damage values.

So moving through the water would probably damage the Vampire, but not to the extent that their regenerative capabilities wouldn't almost negate it entirely.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by eliakon »

shadrak wrote:
Axelmania wrote:If moving through stagnant water harmed vampires, why bother with phrases like 'running water' if ALL water that contacts a vampire has relative motion and is moving?



Because way Palladium runs their Vampires is that water has an ablative effect, not an acidic effect...

Water shot from a water pistol and a water balloon hand grenade are hardly "running water" either(you MIGHT be able to consider a Sooper Soaker running water, but Palladium includes even the small hand held water pistols), yet Palladium gives both damage values.

So moving through the water would probably damage the Vampire, but not to the extent that their regenerative capabilities wouldn't almost negate it entirely.

The way I saw it was that it was the opposite.
It was a mystical thing. The water had to be in motion for magical reasons.
Thus if it the water wasn't moving itself it didn't count.
So a vampire can swim in still water, but can't cross a running stream. Why? Because its a magical weakness.
Same reason that sunlight hurts it, but moonlight and starlight do not.
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Re: Holy water

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Hawk258 wrote:
Axelmania wrote:WB1p28 mentioned "Holy water is water blessed by a priest whose god(s) is of a scrupulous or principled good alignment, or a god of light"

I couldn't find anything else, but while looking at Water Warlock spells, I came across "Water-Seal" (CBp80, 2nd level) and was curious if that would work on a vampire. It says "any item under forty pounds per level", so the question is whether to draw the line at what is included under 'item' I guess.

"Create Water" mentions "can be effective against vampires", implying you could drop it on them or something since normally stagnant water wouldn't harm them.


I say yes. Because "motion" is relative. If the vampire moves in the water then its is "moving" across his body.

Perhaps but that assumes it is the vampires and not the setting fame that matters in this case.
I think moving water is not a mater of phyisics but what a mideviel person would see as running water.(magic is kind of outside the normal realm of physics)
So rivers and streams as well rain because(or squirt guns) you can see the movement in relation to the setting and the body of water so it is running. Lakes, mud puddles, and ponds might not count as running water. Basically the water needs to be moving throgh the setting.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Axelmania »

When we look at relative motion, if a vampire was in a boat (the boat travels the same speed as the current, so the vampire is moving at same speed as current) and reached over edge and touched water, there wouldn't be any relative motion between them so the vampire shouldn't be harmed if what matters is 'running' relative to the vampire's position.

I expect what matters is whether the water is moving in relation to the surface of the planet the water is on? Which does beg the question of what frame of reference to use when considering the relative movement of vampires in space battles.

Relative motion has to matter for the concept of stationary water to exist, as otherwise all water on planet is 'moving' relative to the sun due to our orbit, or the rotation of the earth. So either the framer of reference is the vampire (in which case, you can touch the river if you are moving with the speed of the current, but moving through stagnant water hurts you) or the earth's crust (in which case, rivers hurt you even if you match the current, but you can move through stagnant water without trouble).

A weird situation crops up... a vampire should be able to scoop stagnant water into their hands, but is it 'running' if they drop it onto their head?

I wish we could assign some kind of "miles per hour" minimum water speed to qualify as 'running' to avoid weirdness like that. For some reason 20mph comes to mind, not sure why.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by MadGreenSon »

Axelmania wrote:
I wish we could assign some kind of "miles per hour" minimum water speed to qualify as 'running' to avoid weirdness like that. For some reason 20mph comes to mind, not sure why.

I'm often tempted to nix most of the water vulnerability leaving it for holy water only and having running water like natural streams, rivers, and oceans serving as a barrier sans damaging effects.

If for no other reason than it would stop the mocking jokes players like to make about Hasbro* being an anti-vampire defense contractor.

*makers of the Super Soaker
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:When we look at relative motion, if a vampire was in a boat (the boat travels the same speed as the current, so the vampire is moving at same speed as current) and reached over edge and touched water, there wouldn't be any relative motion between them so the vampire shouldn't be harmed if what matters is 'running' relative to the vampire's position.

I expect what matters is whether the water is moving in relation to the surface of the planet the water is on? Which does beg the question of what frame of reference to use when considering the relative movement of vampires in space battles.

Relative motion has to matter for the concept of stationary water to exist, as otherwise all water on planet is 'moving' relative to the sun due to our orbit, or the rotation of the earth. So either the framer of reference is the vampire (in which case, you can touch the river if you are moving with the speed of the current, but moving through stagnant water hurts you) or the earth's crust (in which case, rivers hurt you even if you match the current, but you can move through stagnant water without trouble).

A weird situation crops up... a vampire should be able to scoop stagnant water into their hands, but is it 'running' if they drop it onto their head?

I wish we could assign some kind of "miles per hour" minimum water speed to qualify as 'running' to avoid weirdness like that. For some reason 20mph comes to mind, not sure why.

Again why would the vampire frame be the one that matters. After all the setting always matters and the you just showed that using the vampires negates the inherent value of the term running water. If you use the vampire frame then they could negate high speed water by matching its speed and crossing it unharmed.

A running water(classic historic meaning flowing/moving body of water like rivers) as a whole is moving through the setting/ground. (the modern usage of running water is water supplied by pipes.) Running water is major factor in erosion.

Rivers and streams are examples of running water. They are moving through the setting they are in as a whole.


Standing water is a body water that is not moving as a whole through the setting. (even though we know that water itself is always moving)


This would mean that rivers, streams, rain drops, spraws from a squirt gun, and water dumped over the head of a person from a bucket would count as running water. And damage vampires.


And would also mean standing pools such as a bath tub, stagnant swamp, swimming pool would not be running water. But if you scoop up the water in it and drop it on their head it would be running water.


Not about speed but the fact it is moving as a whole though setting.

(basically I think you are making it more complex issue than it need to be by over thinking it.)
Last edited by Blue_Lion on Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

MadGreenSon wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
I wish we could assign some kind of "miles per hour" minimum water speed to qualify as 'running' to avoid weirdness like that. For some reason 20mph comes to mind, not sure why.

I'm often tempted to nix most of the water vulnerability leaving it for holy water only and having running water like natural streams, rivers, and oceans serving as a barrier sans damaging effects.

If for no other reason than it would stop the mocking jokes players like to make about Hasbro* being an anti-vampire defense contractor.

*makers of the Super Soaker


Wouldn't players just put holy water in Super Soakers, and make the same jokes?
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
MadGreenSon wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
I wish we could assign some kind of "miles per hour" minimum water speed to qualify as 'running' to avoid weirdness like that. For some reason 20mph comes to mind, not sure why.

I'm often tempted to nix most of the water vulnerability leaving it for holy water only and having running water like natural streams, rivers, and oceans serving as a barrier sans damaging effects.

If for no other reason than it would stop the mocking jokes players like to make about Hasbro* being an anti-vampire defense contractor.

*makers of the Super Soaker


Wouldn't players just put holy water in Super Soakers, and make the same jokes?

Yes they could do so to keep the jokes going.

Like the player that had his vampire put on body glitter to troll the other players in the game.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by MadGreenSon »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
MadGreenSon wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
I wish we could assign some kind of "miles per hour" minimum water speed to qualify as 'running' to avoid weirdness like that. For some reason 20mph comes to mind, not sure why.

I'm often tempted to nix most of the water vulnerability leaving it for holy water only and having running water like natural streams, rivers, and oceans serving as a barrier sans damaging effects.

If for no other reason than it would stop the mocking jokes players like to make about Hasbro* being an anti-vampire defense contractor.

*makers of the Super Soaker


Wouldn't players just put holy water in Super Soakers, and make the same jokes?

You're right. Next time I actually get to play a game*, I'm making a vampire hunter type and naming him Hasbro. Might as well embrace the humor. :D

*Likely ten past never...
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by taalismn »

Ewww. ...Bad Munchkin Thought/Question :thwak: ...I wonder if you could bless a Water Elemental?

Towering wave of self-propelled water with an infused blessing?
Vampire detergent. :twisted:


Probably not possible, but fun to contemplate. 8)
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by MadGreenSon »

taalismn wrote:Ewww. ...Bad Munchkin Thought/Question :thwak: ...I wonder if you could bless a Water Elemental?



Probably not, but if you could, the results would be absolutely hilarious. :lol:
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by taalismn »

MadGreenSon wrote:
taalismn wrote:Ewww. ...Bad Munchkin Thought/Question :thwak: ...I wonder if you could bless a Water Elemental?



Probably not, but if you could, the results would be absolutely hilarious. :lol:


Yah, Water Elementals are unlikely to tolerate being influenced or tainted in any way by another divinity/supernatural alien being. It's similarly questionable if they'd tolerate being summoned up to inhabit anything not immediately recognizable as unpolluted water(even if sea water).

Ah, but how about a Heroes Unlimited super being with Alter Physical Form: Water. It wouldn't be applicable to the ongoing question of a good Rifts in-house/universe vampire-slayer, but under other circumstances, a devoutly religious person who saw their superpower as a blessing ...might they accept a priest's water blessing to become a vampire's wet nightmare? :mrgreen:
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For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by dreicunan »

taalismn wrote:
MadGreenSon wrote:
taalismn wrote:Ewww. ...Bad Munchkin Thought/Question :thwak: ...I wonder if you could bless a Water Elemental?



Probably not, but if you could, the results would be absolutely hilarious. :lol:


Yah, Water Elementals are unlikely to tolerate being influenced or tainted in any way by another divinity/supernatural alien being. It's similarly questionable if they'd tolerate being summoned up to inhabit anything not immediately recognizable as unpolluted water(even if sea water).

Ah, but how about a Heroes Unlimited super being with Alter Physical Form: Water. It wouldn't be applicable to the ongoing question of a good Rifts in-house/universe vampire-slayer, but under other circumstances, a devoutly religious person who saw their superpower as a blessing ...might they accept a priest's water blessing to become a vampire's wet nightmare? :mrgreen:

You can either have the Super rifted in or be home-grown (and that isn't even counting the conversion book option; the Super-Spy could have it by taking the one major and one minor option, for example).
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

MadGreenSon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
MadGreenSon wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
I wish we could assign some kind of "miles per hour" minimum water speed to qualify as 'running' to avoid weirdness like that. For some reason 20mph comes to mind, not sure why.

I'm often tempted to nix most of the water vulnerability leaving it for holy water only and having running water like natural streams, rivers, and oceans serving as a barrier sans damaging effects.

If for no other reason than it would stop the mocking jokes players like to make about Hasbro* being an anti-vampire defense contractor.

*makers of the Super Soaker


Wouldn't players just put holy water in Super Soakers, and make the same jokes?

You're right. Next time I actually get to play a game*, I'm making a vampire hunter type and naming him Hasbro. Might as well embrace the humor. :D

*Likely ten past never...


:ok:
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Axelmania »

Blue_Lion wrote:why would the vampire frame be the one that matters. After all the setting always matters and the you just showed that using the vampires negates the inherent value of the term running water.

I said "I expect what matters is whether the water is moving in relation to the surface of the planet the water is on" already.

This does not prove 'the setting always matters', though. Vampires can easily be a unique situation due to their special relationship to soil. So it could be how water moves in relation to the largest collective body of soil, which in this case is the Earth.

Blue_Lion wrote:I think you are making it more complex issue than it need to be by over thinking it.

I notice you completely avoided the issue of how to determine what is running water in space, which is why I asked it.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

Careful... now you are entering into having to get into the definition of "moving" because regardless which is "moving" it is relative and ends with the same effect.

If you jump into water "you" are moving.

If water is thrown at you it is moving.

At the end of either you still end up wet and gravity and motion causing water to "move" across your body.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by The Beast »

Hawk258 wrote:Careful... now you are entering into having to get into the definition of "moving" because regardless which is "moving" it is relative and ends with the same effect.


Which is likely why page 80 of WB1r has some examples of what damage a vampire takes when immersed in different bodies of water.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

The Beast wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:Careful... now you are entering into having to get into the definition of "moving" because regardless which is "moving" it is relative and ends with the same effect.


Which is likely why page 80 of WB1r has some examples of what damage a vampire takes when immersed in different bodies of water.


In otherwords moving is only half the equation. "Clean" is the other half.

Because as noted holy water doesn't have to move to keep a vampire out.


And with a holy water bombing will destroy the soil forcing the vampires to leave the area.
When I post an idea, game balance is my only concern. For rules see rule zero and for canon look at RUE PAGE 372. Only 2 questions need consideration is it fun? Is it balanced?

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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Hawk258 wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:Careful... now you are entering into having to get into the definition of "moving" because regardless which is "moving" it is relative and ends with the same effect.


Which is likely why page 80 of WB1r has some examples of what damage a vampire takes when immersed in different bodies of water.


In otherwords moving is only half the equation. "Clean" is the other half.

Because as noted holy water doesn't have to move to keep a vampire out.


And with a holy water bombing will destroy the soil forcing the vampires to leave the area.


i think you're either overestimating the efficacy of holy water after it has been mixed into mud (most likely) or vastly overestimating the effects of soil erosion.

and of course, this still presumes that somehow you're going to get millions (more likely billions or trillions) of gallons of holy water per day when the ability to make it is frankly kind of rare and the process of creating it produces a very low volume.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by eliakon »

Shark_Force wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:Careful... now you are entering into having to get into the definition of "moving" because regardless which is "moving" it is relative and ends with the same effect.


Which is likely why page 80 of WB1r has some examples of what damage a vampire takes when immersed in different bodies of water.


In otherwords moving is only half the equation. "Clean" is the other half.

Because as noted holy water doesn't have to move to keep a vampire out.


And with a holy water bombing will destroy the soil forcing the vampires to leave the area.


i think you're either overestimating the efficacy of holy water after it has been mixed into mud (most likely) or vastly overestimating the effects of soil erosion.

and of course, this still presumes that somehow you're going to get millions (more likely billions or trillions) of gallons of holy water per day when the ability to make it is frankly kind of rare and the process of creating it produces a very low volume.

Harvey dropped around 33 trillion gallons of water on the US.
That should give you a basic idea of the scales your looking at here.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:why would the vampire frame be the one that matters. After all the setting always matters and the you just showed that using the vampires negates the inherent value of the term running water.

I said "I expect what matters is whether the water is moving in relation to the surface of the planet the water is on" already.

This does not prove 'the setting always matters', though. Vampires can easily be a unique situation due to their special relationship to soil. So it could be how water moves in relation to the largest collective body of soil, which in this case is the Earth.

Blue_Lion wrote:I think you are making it more complex issue than it need to be by over thinking it.

I notice you completely avoided the issue of how to determine what is running water in space, which is why I asked it.

1. The setting always matters in the game.
A the setting can allow or block any action.

If two people are 3' apart can they punch eachother? Depends on the setting if there is a sodlid wall between them they can not.
Can two people shoot eahother? again depends on the setting.
Can a samas fly between two points? depends does the setting becaus they have a max flight altitude.

There is no scenero that can not be affected by the setting, so the setting does alwayss matter.

However shooters vampires even PC are not always a factor in every scenerio.


2. In space, you still have some sort of setting that the action happens in. The setting can be a space ship, station, an area of deep space, asteroid. So moving would be relative to the setting. If the setting is a space ship then the water would need to be moving in relation to the setting means the ship frame is used to determine if it is moving. (see how simple it is and hey look it address all needs to determine movement.) If the setting is an area in space where two ships are fighting then it would be the area in space that determines what is moving.
(I did not call it out specifically because saying it is the setting that decides answers it.)
If the setting is the inside of death heads transport then the death head transport determines what is moving.

Simply the setting always matters and using the setting as the zero frame address all situations, and rules the same. So once you have a setting for the action then you also have a zero frame for the action.
Last edited by Blue_Lion on Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Shark_Force wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:Careful... now you are entering into having to get into the definition of "moving" because regardless which is "moving" it is relative and ends with the same effect.


Which is likely why page 80 of WB1r has some examples of what damage a vampire takes when immersed in different bodies of water.


In otherwords moving is only half the equation. "Clean" is the other half.

Because as noted holy water doesn't have to move to keep a vampire out.


And with a holy water bombing will destroy the soil forcing the vampires to leave the area.


i think you're either overestimating the efficacy of holy water after it has been mixed into mud (most likely) or vastly overestimating the effects of soil erosion.

and of course, this still presumes that somehow you're going to get millions (more likely billions or trillions) of gallons of holy water per day when the ability to make it is frankly kind of rare and the process of creating it produces a very low volume.

Is it still holy water when it is contaminated?
Does it have a listed affect when mixed in mud?

Honestly water bombing is just artificial rain something that can already harm vampires. Even with holy water you just making it rain, and vampires already have to deal with deadly rain.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:Careful... now you are entering into having to get into the definition of "moving" because regardless which is "moving" it is relative and ends with the same effect.


Which is likely why page 80 of WB1r has some examples of what damage a vampire takes when immersed in different bodies of water.


In otherwords moving is only half the equation. "Clean" is the other half.

Because as noted holy water doesn't have to move to keep a vampire out.


And with a holy water bombing will destroy the soil forcing the vampires to leave the area.


i think you're either overestimating the efficacy of holy water after it has been mixed into mud (most likely) or vastly overestimating the effects of soil erosion.

and of course, this still presumes that somehow you're going to get millions (more likely billions or trillions) of gallons of holy water per day when the ability to make it is frankly kind of rare and the process of creating it produces a very low volume.

Is it still holy water when it is contaminated?
Does it have a listed affect when mixed in mud?

Honestly water bombing is just artificial rain something that can already harm vampires. Even with holy water you just making it rain, and vampires already have to deal with deadly rain.


If you had read page 80 of VKr you would understand what I am talking about.

But i will share it for the class.

Holy Water
Holy water is ordinary water, or water mixed with oil, blessed
by a priest whose god(s) is of a Scrupulous or Principled good
alignment, and recognized as a God ofLight. Holy water splashed
on a vampire bums like molten lead.
• Vial ofHoly Water (6 ounces): Six ounces (177 rnl) does 306
Hit Point damage.
• A vampire cannot enter a circle drawn with holy water while
it is wet. Once the water has all dried, the undead can enter.
• Covering the soil of the homeland inside a vampire's sleeping
chamber with holy water destroys the soil by contaminating it.


Which if a vampire is forced to flea quickly has to return to his point of creation for more soil or have a backup Or be native to the area.

And several tons of water is going to be more like a firehose force. 2700 gallons is roughly 16 tons.

But as a side note npc's and towns can provide the holy water.

Especially if a certain necromancer and vampire slayer can have 3866 undead soldiers waiting to wage war with the vampires.
When I post an idea, game balance is my only concern. For rules see rule zero and for canon look at RUE PAGE 372. Only 2 questions need consideration is it fun? Is it balanced?

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Re: Holy water

Unread post by dreicunan »

Hawk258 wrote:If you had read page 80 of VKr you would understand what I am talking about.

But i will share it for the class.

Holy Water
Holy water is ordinary water, or water mixed with oil, blessed
by a priest whose god(s) is of a Scrupulous or Principled good
alignment, and recognized as a God ofLight. Holy water splashed
on a vampire bums like molten lead.
• Vial ofHoly Water (6 ounces): Six ounces (177 rnl) does 306
Hit Point damage.
• A vampire cannot enter a circle drawn with holy water while
it is wet. Once the water has all dried, the undead can enter.
• Covering the soil of the homeland inside a vampire's sleeping
chamber with holy water destroys the soil by contaminating it.


Which if a vampire is forced to flea quickly has to return to his point of creation for more soil or have a backup Or be native to the area.

And several tons of water is going to be more like a firehose force. 2700 gallons is roughly 16 tons.

Yes, covering the soil of the homeland inside a vampire's sleeping chamber with holy water destroys the soil by contaminating it. So if you happen to be doing your holy water bombing run in a vampire's sleeping chamber, it would destroy the soil of their homeland. As written, that would also mean that dumping holy water on the entirety of Mexico would not deny the whole the of the nation to the vampire kingdoms, because the soil of all of Mexico is not inside a vampire's sleeping chamber.

In my own games, I'd rule that for the soil to be contaminated by the holy water and become unusable for a vampire, it would have to be soil that is no longer connected to the ground. Thus, you could contaminate spare bags of soil that a vampire keeps on hand, but not the soil out in the vampire's backyard.

As an aside, given how liberal "soil of the homeland" is interpreted in Rifts (at the continent level), and that vampires can just burrow into the ground if they need to do so, it will almost never be a factor anyways.

Hawk258 wrote:But as a side note npc's and towns can provide the holy water.

Especially if a certain necromancer and vampire slayer can have 3866 undead soldiers waiting to wage war with the vampires.
Sure, npcs who are clergy of an appropriate deity (and the towns in which they dwell, by extension) could provide the holy water. Their ability to do that, however, is entirely independent of the ability of necromancers to have an army of mummies, so I'm not sure why you are citing that as a reason that npcs and towns can provide holy water.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

dreicunan wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:If you had read page 80 of VKr you would understand what I am talking about.

But i will share it for the class.

Holy Water
Holy water is ordinary water, or water mixed with oil, blessed
by a priest whose god(s) is of a Scrupulous or Principled good
alignment, and recognized as a God ofLight. Holy water splashed
on a vampire bums like molten lead.
• Vial ofHoly Water (6 ounces): Six ounces (177 rnl) does 306
Hit Point damage.
• A vampire cannot enter a circle drawn with holy water while
it is wet. Once the water has all dried, the undead can enter.
• Covering the soil of the homeland inside a vampire's sleeping
chamber with holy water destroys the soil by contaminating it.


Which if a vampire is forced to flea quickly has to return to his point of creation for more soil or have a backup Or be native to the area.

And several tons of water is going to be more like a firehose force. 2700 gallons is roughly 16 tons.

Yes, covering the soil of the homeland inside a vampire's sleeping chamber with holy water destroys the soil by contaminating it. So if you happen to be doing your holy water bombing run in a vampire's sleeping chamber, it would destroy the soil of their homeland. As written, that would also mean that dumping holy water on the entirety of Mexico would not deny the whole the of the nation to the vampire kingdoms, because the soil of all of Mexico is not inside a vampire's sleeping chamber.

In my own games, I'd rule that for the soil to be contaminated by the holy water and become unusable for a vampire, it would have to be soil that is no longer connected to the ground. Thus, you could contaminate spare bags of soil that a vampire keeps on hand, but not the soil out in the vampire's backyard.

As an aside, given how liberal "soil of the homeland" is interpreted in Rifts (at the continent level), and that vampires can just burrow into the ground if they need to do so, it will almost never be a factor anyways.

Hawk258 wrote:But as a side note npc's and towns can provide the holy water.

Especially if a certain necromancer and vampire slayer can have 3866 undead soldiers waiting to wage war with the vampires.
Sure, npcs who are clergy of an appropriate deity (and the towns in which they dwell, by extension) could provide the holy water. Their ability to do that, however, is entirely independent of the ability of necromancers to have an army of mummies, so I'm not sure why you are citing that as a reason that npcs and towns can provide holy water.



It is an "example" of an NPC group creating and having access to items and resources for such a "campaign".

It wouldn't be a stretch to say an NPC mage could make 1000 gallons of holy water every 18 hours.
When I post an idea, game balance is my only concern. For rules see rule zero and for canon look at RUE PAGE 372. Only 2 questions need consideration is it fun? Is it balanced?

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Re: Holy water

Unread post by dreicunan »

OK. I wouldn't have thought that an example was needed to clarify that NPCs get to have things, so thank you for clarifying what your point was.

Hawk258 wrote:It wouldn't be a stretch to say an NPC mage could make 1000 gallons of holy water every 18 hours.
Care to show your math on that?

Edit: I had a spare moment, so let me clarify. A vial of holy water doing 3d6 is established as being 6 ozs. There are 128000 ounces in 1000 gallons, which works out to 21,333 and a third vials. Let's drop the third. Making 21,333 vials of holy water costs 426,660 PPE.

So, let's assume that an NPC Mage had a knowledge of mystic herbology (which is non-existent in North and South America according to Book of Magic). Let us also assume that the practitioner is at a nexus so that at least 20 PPE extra can be used per round. Finally, let us assume that the process of enchanting the herb to make the potion only takes a single melee round (a matter about which I am dubious, but let's run with it). To make 21,333 vials would take 21,333 melee rounds, which is 5,333.25 minutes, which works out to 88 hours, 53 minutes, and 15 seconds. Now, I acknowledge that a practitioner of magic is going to have their own PPE pool to shave a few off of that, but very few are going to have enough PPE to make even 10 of them, but let's take a lvl 15 Ley Line Walker (who knows how he learned herbology) with max rolls on PPE and who has 30 PE, for a lvl 1 pool of 230, and then add on max PPE rolls all the way up for an extra 252 PPE, so 482. That shaves 24 Vials off, so it would only take 88 hours, 47 minutes, and 15 seconds to make the amount of Holy Water.

Heck, let's say that this lvl 15 ley line walker is so good that he can do TWO vials a melee round and is at a nexus and thus can get the 40 PPE per round needed to sustain it. That would cut the time needed down to 44 hours, and about 23 and a half minutes. You asserted that an NPC mage (note the singular) could make this amount every 18 hours. So, once again, would you kindly show your math on how that is done?
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Axelmania »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:why would the vampire frame be the one that matters. After all the setting always matters and the you just showed that using the vampires negates the inherent value of the term running water.

I said "I expect what matters is whether the water is moving in relation to the surface of the planet the water is on" already.

This does not prove 'the setting always matters', though. Vampires can easily be a unique situation due to their special relationship to soil. So it could be how water moves in relation to the largest collective body of soil, which in this case is the Earth.

Blue_Lion wrote:I think you are making it more complex issue than it need to be by over thinking it.

I notice you completely avoided the issue of how to determine what is running water in space, which is why I asked it.

1. The setting always matters in the game.
A the setting can allow or block any action.

If two people are 3' apart can they punch eachother? Depends on the setting if there is a sodlid wall between them they can not.
Can two people shoot eahother? again depends on the setting.
Can a samas fly between two points? depends does the setting becaus they have a max flight altitude.

There is no scenero that can not be affected by the setting, so the setting does alwayss matter.

However shooters vampires even PC are not always a factor in every scenerio.


2. In space, you still have some sort of setting that the action happens in. The setting can be a space ship, station, an area of deep space, asteroid. So moving would be relative to the setting. If the setting is a space ship then the water would need to be moving in relation to the setting means the ship frame is used to determine if it is moving. (see how simple it is and hey look it address all needs to determine movement.) If the setting is an area in space where two ships are fighting then it would be the area in space that determines what is moving.
(I did not call it out specifically because saying it is the setting that decides answers it.)
If the setting is the inside of death heads transport then the death head transport determines what is moving.

Simply the setting always matters and using the setting as the zero frame address all situations, and rules the same. So once you have a setting for the action then you also have a zero frame for the action.


BL this isn't a good time to resurrect your SAMAS theories. Setting is an arbitrary classification. Water that is stagnant in relation to Earth is in motion relative to the moon, meaning if you arbitrarily designate 'moon' as setting then it would harm vampires too.

You need a neutral and description designation of the reference point of running. Which is why "soil of a certain mass" should probably work.

The problem we face is that if I have a bathtub inside a Death's Head, it is clearly stagnant in regard to the Death's Head but if the DH begins to move, the water is in motion in respect to the Earth even though it remains stagnant in relation to the bathtub.

So at what altitude does the Death's Head transport become the "setting" instead of the Earth? If I'm dealing with a spaceship which can fly an unlimited distance away from Earth, at which point do you arbitrarily designate the reference point shift? We need specifics, not vague ideas that can be interpreted any variety of ways.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by dreicunan »

Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:why would the vampire frame be the one that matters. After all the setting always matters and the you just showed that using the vampires negates the inherent value of the term running water.

I said "I expect what matters is whether the water is moving in relation to the surface of the planet the water is on" already.

This does not prove 'the setting always matters', though. Vampires can easily be a unique situation due to their special relationship to soil. So it could be how water moves in relation to the largest collective body of soil, which in this case is the Earth.

Blue_Lion wrote:I think you are making it more complex issue than it need to be by over thinking it.

I notice you completely avoided the issue of how to determine what is running water in space, which is why I asked it.

1. The setting always matters in the game.
A the setting can allow or block any action.

If two people are 3' apart can they punch eachother? Depends on the setting if there is a sodlid wall between them they can not.
Can two people shoot eahother? again depends on the setting.
Can a samas fly between two points? depends does the setting becaus they have a max flight altitude.

There is no scenero that can not be affected by the setting, so the setting does alwayss matter.

However shooters vampires even PC are not always a factor in every scenerio.


2. In space, you still have some sort of setting that the action happens in. The setting can be a space ship, station, an area of deep space, asteroid. So moving would be relative to the setting. If the setting is a space ship then the water would need to be moving in relation to the setting means the ship frame is used to determine if it is moving. (see how simple it is and hey look it address all needs to determine movement.) If the setting is an area in space where two ships are fighting then it would be the area in space that determines what is moving.
(I did not call it out specifically because saying it is the setting that decides answers it.)
If the setting is the inside of death heads transport then the death head transport determines what is moving.

Simply the setting always matters and using the setting as the zero frame address all situations, and rules the same. So once you have a setting for the action then you also have a zero frame for the action.


BL this isn't a good time to resurrect your SAMAS theories. Setting is an arbitrary classification. Water that is stagnant in relation to Earth is in motion relative to the moon, meaning if you arbitrarily designate 'moon' as setting then it would harm vampires too.

You need a neutral and description designation of the reference point of running. Which is why "soil of a certain mass" should probably work.

The problem we face is that if I have a bathtub inside a Death's Head, it is clearly stagnant in regard to the Death's Head but if the DH begins to move, the water is in motion in respect to the Earth even though it remains stagnant in relation to the bathtub.

So at what altitude does the Death's Head transport become the "setting" instead of the Earth? If I'm dealing with a spaceship which can fly an unlimited distance away from Earth, at which point do you arbitrarily designate the reference point shift? We need specifics, not vague ideas that can be interpreted any variety of ways.

There aren't any specifics to give based on the information given in the books. The best that you can do is extrapolate based on examples that we do have.

For example: "Being immersed in clean, clear, still water, like a swimming pool or horse trough, causes discomfort and but (sic) only inflicts 1D6 points of damage per melee round and cannot kill a vampire even when Hit Points are reduced to zero or below." Thus, if the bathtub in the Death's head is still, regardless of the speed of the Death's Head, this is what it would do. Of course, if you turn the tap on, then you have running water.

However, if the water is sloshing back and forth, well, the GM needs to make a call on if that counts as running water. I don't recall a solid example on that.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

dreicunan wrote:OK. I wouldn't have thought that an example was needed to clarify that NPCs get to have things, so thank you for clarifying what your point was.

Hawk258 wrote:It wouldn't be a stretch to say an NPC mage could make 1000 gallons of holy water every 18 hours.
Care to show your math on that?

Edit: I had a spare moment, so let me clarify. A vial of holy water doing 3d6 is established as being 6 ozs. There are 128000 ounces in 1000 gallons, which works out to 21,333 and a third vials. Let's drop the third. Making 21,333 vials of holy water costs 426,660 PPE.

So, let's assume that an NPC Mage had a knowledge of mystic herbology (which is non-existent in North and South America according to Book of Magic). Let us also assume that the practitioner is at a nexus so that at least 20 PPE extra can be used per round. Finally, let us assume that the process of enchanting the herb to make the potion only takes a single melee round (a matter about which I am dubious, but let's run with it). To make 21,333 vials would take 21,333 melee rounds, which is 5,333.25 minutes, which works out to 88 hours, 53 minutes, and 15 seconds. Now, I acknowledge that a practitioner of magic is going to have their own PPE pool to shave a few off of that, but very few are going to have enough PPE to make even 10 of them, but let's take a lvl 15 Ley Line Walker (who knows how he learned herbology) with max rolls on PPE and who has 30 PE, for a lvl 1 pool of 230, and then add on max PPE rolls all the way up for an extra 252 PPE, so 482. That shaves 24 Vials off, so it would only take 88 hours, 47 minutes, and 15 seconds to make the amount of Holy Water.

Heck, let's say that this lvl 15 ley line walker is so good that he can do TWO vials a melee round and is at a nexus and thus can get the 40 PPE per round needed to sustain it. That would cut the time needed down to 44 hours, and about 23 and a half minutes. You asserted that an NPC mage (note the singular) could make this amount every 18 hours. So, once again, would you kindly show your math on how that is done?


Okay somewhere I admit I screwed up my math.
However 100 gallons in 9 hours is still significantly.

Also while "unlikely" an herbalist "could" be in north America it isn't improbable. In the southern region less likely. But with the tolkeen war that changes the probability greatly.

And in a desert full of vampires an herbalist is rather limited on what he can contribute to the fight. But making holy water in this environment would be a means to fund his way home.

But there is also the fact that there is nothing that says he has to make it 6oz at a time.

If a group of mages were to draw and focus ppe into the herbalist on a leyline, 1 gallon could be made per round.
Last edited by Hawk258 on Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
When I post an idea, game balance is my only concern. For rules see rule zero and for canon look at RUE PAGE 372. Only 2 questions need consideration is it fun? Is it balanced?

Gamblers fallacy:(Example): Coin flips are the most common example of the gambler's fallacy. For instance, in a game of heads or tails, many people will bet on tails if there have been several heads in a row.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:why would the vampire frame be the one that matters. After all the setting always matters and the you just showed that using the vampires negates the inherent value of the term running water.

I said "I expect what matters is whether the water is moving in relation to the surface of the planet the water is on" already.

This does not prove 'the setting always matters', though. Vampires can easily be a unique situation due to their special relationship to soil. So it could be how water moves in relation to the largest collective body of soil, which in this case is the Earth.

Blue_Lion wrote:I think you are making it more complex issue than it need to be by over thinking it.

I notice you completely avoided the issue of how to determine what is running water in space, which is why I asked it.

1. The setting always matters in the game.
A the setting can allow or block any action.

If two people are 3' apart can they punch eachother? Depends on the setting if there is a sodlid wall between them they can not.
Can two people shoot eahother? again depends on the setting.
Can a samas fly between two points? depends does the setting becaus they have a max flight altitude.

There is no scenero that can not be affected by the setting, so the setting does alwayss matter.

However shooters vampires even PC are not always a factor in every scenerio.


2. In space, you still have some sort of setting that the action happens in. The setting can be a space ship, station, an area of deep space, asteroid. So moving would be relative to the setting. If the setting is a space ship then the water would need to be moving in relation to the setting means the ship frame is used to determine if it is moving. (see how simple it is and hey look it address all needs to determine movement.) If the setting is an area in space where two ships are fighting then it would be the area in space that determines what is moving.
(I did not call it out specifically because saying it is the setting that decides answers it.)
If the setting is the inside of death heads transport then the death head transport determines what is moving.

Simply the setting always matters and using the setting as the zero frame address all situations, and rules the same. So once you have a setting for the action then you also have a zero frame for the action.


BL this isn't a good time to resurrect your SAMAS theories. Setting is an arbitrary classification. Water that is stagnant in relation to Earth is in motion relative to the moon, meaning if you arbitrarily designate 'moon' as setting then it would harm vampires too.

You need a neutral and description designation of the reference point of running. Which is why "soil of a certain mass" should probably work.

The problem we face is that if I have a bathtub inside a Death's Head, it is clearly stagnant in regard to the Death's Head but if the DH begins to move, the water is in motion in respect to the Earth even though it remains stagnant in relation to the bathtub.

So at what altitude does the Death's Head transport become the "setting" instead of the Earth? If I'm dealing with a spaceship which can fly an unlimited distance away from Earth, at which point do you arbitrarily designate the reference point shift? We need specifics, not vague ideas that can be interpreted any variety of ways.


I am actually inclined to agree here. If you hold 2 vampire in the water does one vampire moving the water count against the other?
When I post an idea, game balance is my only concern. For rules see rule zero and for canon look at RUE PAGE 372. Only 2 questions need consideration is it fun? Is it balanced?

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Re: Holy water

Unread post by dreicunan »

Hawk258 wrote:
dreicunan wrote:OK. I wouldn't have thought that an example was needed to clarify that NPCs get to have things, so thank you for clarifying what your point was.

Hawk258 wrote:It wouldn't be a stretch to say an NPC mage could make 1000 gallons of holy water every 18 hours.
Care to show your math on that?

Edit: I had a spare moment, so let me clarify. A vial of holy water doing 3d6 is established as being 6 ozs. There are 128000 ounces in 1000 gallons, which works out to 21,333 and a third vials. Let's drop the third. Making 21,333 vials of holy water costs 426,660 PPE.

So, let's assume that an NPC Mage had a knowledge of mystic herbology (which is non-existent in North and South America according to Book of Magic). Let us also assume that the practitioner is at a nexus so that at least 20 PPE extra can be used per round. Finally, let us assume that the process of enchanting the herb to make the potion only takes a single melee round (a matter about which I am dubious, but let's run with it). To make 21,333 vials would take 21,333 melee rounds, which is 5,333.25 minutes, which works out to 88 hours, 53 minutes, and 15 seconds. Now, I acknowledge that a practitioner of magic is going to have their own PPE pool to shave a few off of that, but very few are going to have enough PPE to make even 10 of them, but let's take a lvl 15 Ley Line Walker (who knows how he learned herbology) with max rolls on PPE and who has 30 PE, for a lvl 1 pool of 230, and then add on max PPE rolls all the way up for an extra 252 PPE, so 482. That shaves 24 Vials off, so it would only take 88 hours, 47 minutes, and 15 seconds to make the amount of Holy Water.

Heck, let's say that this lvl 15 ley line walker is so good that he can do TWO vials a melee round and is at a nexus and thus can get the 40 PPE per round needed to sustain it. That would cut the time needed down to 44 hours, and about 23 and a half minutes. You asserted that an NPC mage (note the singular) could make this amount every 18 hours. So, once again, would you kindly show your math on how that is done?


Okay somewhere I admit I screwed up my math.
However 100 gallons in 9 hours is still significantly.

Also while "unlikely" an herbalist "could" be in north America it isn't improbable. In the southern region less likely. But with the tolkeen war that changes the probability greatly.

And in a desert full of vampires an herbalist is rather limited on what he can contribute to the fight. But making holy water in this environment would be a means to fund his way home.

Sure. Now all he needs is a steady source of Rue or Common Oak (more likely the former than the latter in the south-west and in Mexico) that can actually be used to make that much holy water. Oh, I should note that after re-reading it is clear that it would take longer than a single melee round. A "potion" in the context of herbology is "simply a tea or similar liquid brew created by an herbalist or Druid" in Rifts: England. So to make Holy Water, first you have to enchant the herb, THEN you have to make a tea with it. The argument could be made that the actual tea making could be done independent of the enchanting, and perhaps more than one "vial" at a time, but either way you are spending more than a melee per vial on the process.

Also, the instilling of the herb with magic is subject to a skill roll (I'd forgotten about that), and failure means that it won't work, so base skill 20% + 5% per level, herbalist gets +15% bonus. Filidh gets +10%, Dryad gets +20%, and Scathach gets +5%. So depending on class and level you'll have to factor failures into how much can be produced in a given time frame.
Last edited by dreicunan on Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

dreicunan wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:
dreicunan wrote:OK. I wouldn't have thought that an example was needed to clarify that NPCs get to have things, so thank you for clarifying what your point was.

Hawk258 wrote:It wouldn't be a stretch to say an NPC mage could make 1000 gallons of holy water every 18 hours.
Care to show your math on that?

Edit: I had a spare moment, so let me clarify. A vial of holy water doing 3d6 is established as being 6 ozs. There are 128000 ounces in 1000 gallons, which works out to 21,333 and a third vials. Let's drop the third. Making 21,333 vials of holy water costs 426,660 PPE.

So, let's assume that an NPC Mage had a knowledge of mystic herbology (which is non-existent in North and South America according to Book of Magic). Let us also assume that the practitioner is at a nexus so that at least 20 PPE extra can be used per round. Finally, let us assume that the process of enchanting the herb to make the potion only takes a single melee round (a matter about which I am dubious, but let's run with it). To make 21,333 vials would take 21,333 melee rounds, which is 5,333.25 minutes, which works out to 88 hours, 53 minutes, and 15 seconds. Now, I acknowledge that a practitioner of magic is going to have their own PPE pool to shave a few off of that, but very few are going to have enough PPE to make even 10 of them, but let's take a lvl 15 Ley Line Walker (who knows how he learned herbology) with max rolls on PPE and who has 30 PE, for a lvl 1 pool of 230, and then add on max PPE rolls all the way up for an extra 252 PPE, so 482. That shaves 24 Vials off, so it would only take 88 hours, 47 minutes, and 15 seconds to make the amount of Holy Water.

Heck, let's say that this lvl 15 ley line walker is so good that he can do TWO vials a melee round and is at a nexus and thus can get the 40 PPE per round needed to sustain it. That would cut the time needed down to 44 hours, and about 23 and a half minutes. You asserted that an NPC mage (note the singular) could make this amount every 18 hours. So, once again, would you kindly show your math on how that is done?


Okay somewhere I admit I screwed up my math.
However 100 gallons in 9 hours is still significantly.

Also while "unlikely" an herbalist "could" be in north America it isn't improbable. In the southern region less likely. But with the tolkeen war that changes the probability greatly.

And in a desert full of vampires an herbalist is rather limited on what he can contribute to the fight. But making holy water in this environment would be a means to fund his way home.

Sure. Now all he needs is a steady source of Rue or Common Oak (more likely the former than the latter in the south-west and in Mexico) that can actually be used to make that much holy water. Oh, I should note that after re-reading it is clear that it would take longer than a single melee round. A "potion" in the context of herbology is "simply a tea or similar liquid brew created by an herbalist or Druid" in Rifts: England. So to make Holy Water, first you have to enchant the herb, THEN you have to make a tea with it. The argument could be made that the actual tea making could be done independent of the enchanting, and perhaps more than one "vial" at a time, but either way you are spending more than a melee per vial on the process.


In context of a PC that would be true, but the great thing about npc and items in an adventure they can break the rules to fit the adventure.

Kinda like a demon Locust that can fly at 450mph.
When I post an idea, game balance is my only concern. For rules see rule zero and for canon look at RUE PAGE 372. Only 2 questions need consideration is it fun? Is it balanced?

Gamblers fallacy:(Example): Coin flips are the most common example of the gambler's fallacy. For instance, in a game of heads or tails, many people will bet on tails if there have been several heads in a row.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by eliakon »

Hawk258 wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:
dreicunan wrote:OK. I wouldn't have thought that an example was needed to clarify that NPCs get to have things, so thank you for clarifying what your point was.

Hawk258 wrote:It wouldn't be a stretch to say an NPC mage could make 1000 gallons of holy water every 18 hours.
Care to show your math on that?

Edit: I had a spare moment, so let me clarify. A vial of holy water doing 3d6 is established as being 6 ozs. There are 128000 ounces in 1000 gallons, which works out to 21,333 and a third vials. Let's drop the third. Making 21,333 vials of holy water costs 426,660 PPE.

So, let's assume that an NPC Mage had a knowledge of mystic herbology (which is non-existent in North and South America according to Book of Magic). Let us also assume that the practitioner is at a nexus so that at least 20 PPE extra can be used per round. Finally, let us assume that the process of enchanting the herb to make the potion only takes a single melee round (a matter about which I am dubious, but let's run with it). To make 21,333 vials would take 21,333 melee rounds, which is 5,333.25 minutes, which works out to 88 hours, 53 minutes, and 15 seconds. Now, I acknowledge that a practitioner of magic is going to have their own PPE pool to shave a few off of that, but very few are going to have enough PPE to make even 10 of them, but let's take a lvl 15 Ley Line Walker (who knows how he learned herbology) with max rolls on PPE and who has 30 PE, for a lvl 1 pool of 230, and then add on max PPE rolls all the way up for an extra 252 PPE, so 482. That shaves 24 Vials off, so it would only take 88 hours, 47 minutes, and 15 seconds to make the amount of Holy Water.

Heck, let's say that this lvl 15 ley line walker is so good that he can do TWO vials a melee round and is at a nexus and thus can get the 40 PPE per round needed to sustain it. That would cut the time needed down to 44 hours, and about 23 and a half minutes. You asserted that an NPC mage (note the singular) could make this amount every 18 hours. So, once again, would you kindly show your math on how that is done?


Okay somewhere I admit I screwed up my math.
However 100 gallons in 9 hours is still significantly.

Also while "unlikely" an herbalist "could" be in north America it isn't improbable. In the southern region less likely. But with the tolkeen war that changes the probability greatly.

And in a desert full of vampires an herbalist is rather limited on what he can contribute to the fight. But making holy water in this environment would be a means to fund his way home.

Sure. Now all he needs is a steady source of Rue or Common Oak (more likely the former than the latter in the south-west and in Mexico) that can actually be used to make that much holy water. Oh, I should note that after re-reading it is clear that it would take longer than a single melee round. A "potion" in the context of herbology is "simply a tea or similar liquid brew created by an herbalist or Druid" in Rifts: England. So to make Holy Water, first you have to enchant the herb, THEN you have to make a tea with it. The argument could be made that the actual tea making could be done independent of the enchanting, and perhaps more than one "vial" at a time, but either way you are spending more than a melee per vial on the process.


In context of a PC that would be true, but the great thing about npc and items in an adventure they can break the rules to fit the adventure.

Kinda like a demon Locust that can fly at 450mph.

and spending a week or so to make enough holy water for one helicopter to drop in one night isn't going to do beans.

Lets say you have a million herbalists.
And lets say that they are working 2 9 hour shifts a day seven days a week.
And that they can make it two doses a round still.
Why, to make as much holy water as hurricane Harvey dropped (you know, for the mythical 'purify the dirt of Mexico") that would only take them 166,208 years of constant work! :lol:

Scope and scale people. Scope and scale.
Just because NPCs can provide "stuff as needed" does not mean that they are magical plot fairies that simply mean you can handwave any thing and say "It works because I can let the NPCs magically make it work, so it works"

Well, I mean I guess you *can* do that at your table. But no one I know of is going to buy that as a valid argument. Heck it is the #1 reason that people have problems with the CS.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

That's the thing, in game terms you don't have to know "what" it took to make the stockpile, just that they did.

Not like the vampire threat isn't a known. Or that scrupulously people wouldn't help or even opportunistic ones wouldn't take advantage of it.

Maybe the splurgorth have slave herbalist cranking it out.

Not like they have an issue with holy water. Or a reason to get rid of the vampires
When I post an idea, game balance is my only concern. For rules see rule zero and for canon look at RUE PAGE 372. Only 2 questions need consideration is it fun? Is it balanced?

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Re: Holy water

Unread post by dreicunan »

Hawk258 wrote:In context of a PC that would be true, but the great thing about npc and items in an adventure they can break the rules to fit the adventure.

Kinda like a demon Locust that can fly at 450mph.
Great. Why did you even start the thread then? You asked for books and pages related to holy water creation. People have taken their time to try and help you out with that. If your view is "I'll just have an NPC break the rules," why bother with holy water and dubious justifications. Just introduce Iwin Evenwheni Loseiwin to your games as an NPC and never have to worry again about explaining how this NPC triumphs over anything and everything. Iwin will defeat the vampires on his own with both hands and one foot tied behind his back. The PCs can either put on cheerleading uniforms and encourage him or head home and role-play domestic life while Iwin takes care of everything.

Hawk258 wrote:That's the thing, in game terms you don't have to know "what" it took to make the stockpile, just that they did.

Not like the vampire threat isn't a known. Or that scrupulously people wouldn't help or even opportunistic ones wouldn't take advantage of it.

Maybe the splurgorth have slave herbalist cranking it out.

Not like they have an issue with holy water. Or a reason to get rid of the vampires.
See, if you just use Iwin Evenwheni Loseiwin you wouldn't have to come up with crazy ideas like Splugorth making vast amounts of Holy Water. You could just have Iwin take care of it.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

dreicunan wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:In context of a PC that would be true, but the great thing about npc and items in an adventure they can break the rules to fit the adventure.

Kinda like a demon Locust that can fly at 450mph.
Great. Why did you even start the thread then? You asked for books and pages related to holy water creation. People have taken their time to try and help you out with that. If your view is "I'll just have an NPC break the rules," why bother with holy water and dubious justifications. Just introduce Iwin Evenwheni Loseiwin to your games as an NPC and never have to worry again about explaining how this NPC triumphs over anything and everything. Iwin will defeat the vampires on his own with both hands and one foot tied behind his back. The PCs can either put on cheerleading uniforms and encourage him or head home and role-play domestic life while Iwin takes care of everything.

Hawk258 wrote:That's the thing, in game terms you don't have to know "what" it took to make the stockpile, just that they did.

Not like the vampire threat isn't a known. Or that scrupulously people wouldn't help or even opportunistic ones wouldn't take advantage of it.

Maybe the splurgorth have slave herbalist cranking it out.

Not like they have an issue with holy water. Or a reason to get rid of the vampires.
See, if you just use Iwin Evenwheni Loseiwin you wouldn't have to come up with crazy ideas like Splugorth making vast amounts of Holy Water. You could just have Iwin take care of it.


Because if I do utilize any aspect for a game and hand wave it ar least it fit the story.

I mean has anyone asked where all the holy water comes from in the first place?

Or why those creators still live?
When I post an idea, game balance is my only concern. For rules see rule zero and for canon look at RUE PAGE 372. Only 2 questions need consideration is it fun? Is it balanced?

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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:why would the vampire frame be the one that matters. After all the setting always matters and the you just showed that using the vampires negates the inherent value of the term running water.

I said "I expect what matters is whether the water is moving in relation to the surface of the planet the water is on" already.

This does not prove 'the setting always matters', though. Vampires can easily be a unique situation due to their special relationship to soil. So it could be how water moves in relation to the largest collective body of soil, which in this case is the Earth.

Blue_Lion wrote:I think you are making it more complex issue than it need to be by over thinking it.

I notice you completely avoided the issue of how to determine what is running water in space, which is why I asked it.

1. The setting always matters in the game.
A the setting can allow or block any action.

If two people are 3' apart can they punch eachother? Depends on the setting if there is a sodlid wall between them they can not.
Can two people shoot eahother? again depends on the setting.
Can a samas fly between two points? depends does the setting becaus they have a max flight altitude.

There is no scenero that can not be affected by the setting, so the setting does alwayss matter.

However shooters vampires even PC are not always a factor in every scenerio.


2. In space, you still have some sort of setting that the action happens in. The setting can be a space ship, station, an area of deep space, asteroid. So moving would be relative to the setting. If the setting is a space ship then the water would need to be moving in relation to the setting means the ship frame is used to determine if it is moving. (see how simple it is and hey look it address all needs to determine movement.) If the setting is an area in space where two ships are fighting then it would be the area in space that determines what is moving.
(I did not call it out specifically because saying it is the setting that decides answers it.)
If the setting is the inside of death heads transport then the death head transport determines what is moving.

Simply the setting always matters and using the setting as the zero frame address all situations, and rules the same. So once you have a setting for the action then you also have a zero frame for the action.


BL this isn't a good time to resurrect your SAMAS theories. Setting is an arbitrary classification. Water that is stagnant in relation to Earth is in motion relative to the moon, meaning if you arbitrarily designate 'moon' as setting then it would harm vampires too.

You need a neutral and description designation of the reference point of running. Which is why "soil of a certain mass" should probably work.

The problem we face is that if I have a bathtub inside a Death's Head, it is clearly stagnant in regard to the Death's Head but if the DH begins to move, the water is in motion in respect to the Earth even though it remains stagnant in relation to the bathtub.

So at what altitude does the Death's Head transport become the "setting" instead of the Earth? If I'm dealing with a spaceship which can fly an unlimited distance away from Earth, at which point do you arbitrarily designate the reference point shift? We need specifics, not vague ideas that can be interpreted any variety of ways.

It was never a theory on Samas, or any other PA, so do not try to blaintently mislabel it to dismiss it. It is a theory that unifies all rules of movement and how to determine what is moving and how fast that is be applied the same to all use of movement in rules. So it is relevent to how movment is determend for water.


Your proposed theory does not seam to really address moving water and standing water in deep space or even the amount of soil needed to start tracking from.

The setting where action takes place is always present even if it changes in sceneries. It is where you already are tracking the location and movement of all actors, so in is the most obvious neutreal frame.


Demanding that others not discus a theory of how movement should be determined while putting forth your own theory is flawed stance in a debate. Once you introduced your own theory all other theories are acceptable responces.

So my theory is all movement is determend the same way by the setting, regardless of what the movement is being determined for. You have shown in your post that you intended to use a different method for each difrent time the rules discause movement.

The setting shifts to where ever the action is taken place at because that is the setting. So it is less arbitrary than you are claiming. If the action takes place on board a ship, the setting for the action is the ship. If the action takes place in an astral domain the setting is the astral domain. If the action happens inside a bar in Burbs then the setting is the bar. If the actin takes place in an open field then the setting is the field.

You statement about using the moon for the setting for water on the earth is illogical attempt that shows a lack of understanding of the concept setting because the setting is where the story is being told/game is taking place. It is the location of the action that is not something completely arbitrary, but where every thing involved in the even are. If the story/action/game is not taking place on the moon then the moon can not be the setting for the story/action/game. The setting is always where the story/game/action is taking place. It is where all things related to the action are, it is not arbitrary it is the location of the action.

(also stagnant is not just water that is not a moving body but been there so long that it has a build of unhealthy things. If you have stagnant water in your bath tub you need to drain it.)

Mine is single theory that is constantly address all rules the same, you are arbirtary chaning how to determine movement based on how you want it tracked for each difrent rule on movement.

Basically my theory the setting is where you determine all movement regardless of what the movement is for, your theory is to arbitarly track movement differently based on what you think is most relevant at the time.
Last edited by Blue_Lion on Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

dreicunan wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:If you had read page 80 of VKr you would understand what I am talking about.

But i will share it for the class.

Holy Water
Holy water is ordinary water, or water mixed with oil, blessed
by a priest whose god(s) is of a Scrupulous or Principled good
alignment, and recognized as a God ofLight. Holy water splashed
on a vampire bums like molten lead.
• Vial ofHoly Water (6 ounces): Six ounces (177 rnl) does 306
Hit Point damage.
• A vampire cannot enter a circle drawn with holy water while
it is wet. Once the water has all dried, the undead can enter.
• Covering the soil of the homeland inside a vampire's sleeping
chamber with holy water destroys the soil by contaminating it.


Which if a vampire is forced to flea quickly has to return to his point of creation for more soil or have a backup Or be native to the area.

And several tons of water is going to be more like a firehose force. 2700 gallons is roughly 16 tons.

Yes, covering the soil of the homeland inside a vampire's sleeping chamber with holy water destroys the soil by contaminating it. So if you happen to be doing your holy water bombing run in a vampire's sleeping chamber, it would destroy the soil of their homeland. As written, that would also mean that dumping holy water on the entirety of Mexico would not deny the whole the of the nation to the vampire kingdoms, because the soil of all of Mexico is not inside a vampire's sleeping chamber.

In my own games, I'd rule that for the soil to be contaminated by the holy water and become unusable for a vampire, it would have to be soil that is no longer connected to the ground. Thus, you could contaminate spare bags of soil that a vampire keeps on hand, but not the soil out in the vampire's backyard.

As an aside, given how liberal "soil of the homeland" is interpreted in Rifts (at the continent level), and that vampires can just burrow into the ground if they need to do so, it will almost never be a factor anyways.

Hawk258 wrote:But as a side note npc's and towns can provide the holy water.

Especially if a certain necromancer and vampire slayer can have 3866 undead soldiers waiting to wage war with the vampires.
Sure, npcs who are clergy of an appropriate deity (and the towns in which they dwell, by extension) could provide the holy water. Their ability to do that, however, is entirely independent of the ability of necromancers to have an army of mummies, so I'm not sure why you are citing that as a reason that npcs and towns can provide holy water.

Also the vampires already have lairs that are not hit by water so you would miss those and they would be unaffected by it.
There native soil is all mexico and north america for a vampire turned in mexico. As long as they are in mexico or NA they can sleep on the soil or in the earth. (so the scale of what you are trying is huge making it logistically.

There could be structures that shield soil from the hoaly water bombing.

Soil under water would not be hit by the holy water.

Does hoaly water contaminate soil that is not in the vampires sleeping lair the same?

You are basically claiming it is posible to severe the vampires connection to all the earth of its home land. That just does not seam feasible.

The holy water bombing requires a logistical operation that is unrealistic, and assumes it will just work to drive vampires away, despite many reasons it would not.
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I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Hawk258
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Hawk258 »

Blue_Lion wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Hawk258 wrote:If you had read page 80 of VKr you would understand what I am talking about.

But i will share it for the class.

Holy Water
Holy water is ordinary water, or water mixed with oil, blessed
by a priest whose god(s) is of a Scrupulous or Principled good
alignment, and recognized as a God ofLight. Holy water splashed
on a vampire bums like molten lead.
• Vial ofHoly Water (6 ounces): Six ounces (177 rnl) does 306
Hit Point damage.
• A vampire cannot enter a circle drawn with holy water while
it is wet. Once the water has all dried, the undead can enter.
• Covering the soil of the homeland inside a vampire's sleeping
chamber with holy water destroys the soil by contaminating it.


Which if a vampire is forced to flea quickly has to return to his point of creation for more soil or have a backup Or be native to the area.

And several tons of water is going to be more like a firehose force. 2700 gallons is roughly 16 tons.

Yes, covering the soil of the homeland inside a vampire's sleeping chamber with holy water destroys the soil by contaminating it. So if you happen to be doing your holy water bombing run in a vampire's sleeping chamber, it would destroy the soil of their homeland. As written, that would also mean that dumping holy water on the entirety of Mexico would not deny the whole the of the nation to the vampire kingdoms, because the soil of all of Mexico is not inside a vampire's sleeping chamber.

In my own games, I'd rule that for the soil to be contaminated by the holy water and become unusable for a vampire, it would have to be soil that is no longer connected to the ground. Thus, you could contaminate spare bags of soil that a vampire keeps on hand, but not the soil out in the vampire's backyard.

As an aside, given how liberal "soil of the homeland" is interpreted in Rifts (at the continent level), and that vampires can just burrow into the ground if they need to do so, it will almost never be a factor anyways.

Hawk258 wrote:But as a side note npc's and towns can provide the holy water.

Especially if a certain necromancer and vampire slayer can have 3866 undead soldiers waiting to wage war with the vampires.
Sure, npcs who are clergy of an appropriate deity (and the towns in which they dwell, by extension) could provide the holy water. Their ability to do that, however, is entirely independent of the ability of necromancers to have an army of mummies, so I'm not sure why you are citing that as a reason that npcs and towns can provide holy water.

Also the vampires already have lairs that are not hit by water so you would miss those and they would be unaffected by it.
There native soil is all mexico and north america for a vampire turned in mexico. As long as they are in mexico or NA they can sleep on the soil or in the earth. (so the scale of what you are trying is huge making it logistically.

There could be structures that shield soil from the hoaly water bombing.

Soil under water would not be hit by the holy water.

Does hoaly water contaminate soil that is not in the vampires sleeping lair the same?

You are basically claiming it is posible to severe the vampires connection to all the earth of its home land. That just does not seam feasible.

The holy water bombing requires a logistical operation that is unrealistic, and assumes it will just work to drive vampires away, despite many reasons it would not.



Vampires occupy various setting, old silvermines, towns, cities and villages. So that's a moot point

However the game differentiates soil by continent.

But I realized a bombing run alone would not be enough, ground units need to be available to pick off the runners
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Blue_Lion
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Hawk258 wrote:
However the game differentiates soil by continent.

But I realized a bombing run alone would not be enough, ground units need to be available to pick off the runners

There is no reason for them to run from it. The water bombing is a waisted effort. We only know they can't cross wet hoaly water and that when poored on the native soil in there sleeping location it no longer counts as native soil. Basically all they have to do is what they normally do for rain, then wait for it to dry.

We do not know that this would apply to soil that is not in there sleeping area. It could be a elemental link to there home land that requires contamanion after it is removed from the home land to no longer count.


I do not see it being effective, or feasible to pull off.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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taalismn
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Re: Holy water

Unread post by taalismn »

Tell me how you're going to get several tons of holy water in the first place.
'Cause if you got an efficient means of creating it in bulk, every reservoir, water treatment plant, water tank and swimming pool in the New West becomes a potential strategic target.
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