Holy water

[Hawk258]

Tell me how you're going to get several tons of holy water in the first place.
'Cause if you got an efficient means of creating it in bulk, every reservoir, water treatment plant, water tank and swimming pool in the New West becomes a potential strategic target.

Tell me how you're going to get several tons of holy water in the first place.
'Cause if you got an efficient means of creating it in bulk, every reservoir, water treatment plant, water tank and swimming pool in the New West becomes a potential strategic target.

Well who makes holy water in Mexico and the southern region?

If you have to hand wave the source then the limit or availability is not settled.

And leaves much to develop.

[Hawk258]

If you had read page 80 of VKr you would understand what I am talking about.

But i will share it for the class.

Holy Water
Holy water is ordinary water, or water mixed with oil, blessed
by a priest whose god(s) is of a Scrupulous or Principled good
alignment, and recognized as a God ofLight. Holy water splashed
on a vampire bums like molten lead.
• Vial ofHoly Water (6 ounces): Six ounces (177 rnl) does 306
Hit Point damage.
• A vampire cannot enter a circle drawn with holy water while
it is wet. Once the water has all dried, the undead can enter.
• Covering the soil of the homeland inside a vampire's sleeping
chamber with holy water destroys the soil by contaminating it.


Which if a vampire is forced to flea quickly has to return to his point of creation for more soil or have a backup Or be native to the area.

And several tons of water is going to be more like a firehose force. 2700 gallons is roughly 16 tons.

Yes, covering the soil of the homeland inside a vampire's sleeping chamber with holy water destroys the soil by contaminating it. So if you happen to be doing your holy water bombing run in a vampire's sleeping chamber, it would destroy the soil of their homeland. As written, that would also mean that dumping holy water on the entirety of Mexico would not deny the whole the of the nation to the vampire kingdoms, because the soil of all of Mexico is not inside a vampire's sleeping chamber.

In my own games, I'd rule that for the soil to be contaminated by the holy water and become unusable for a vampire, it would have to be soil that is no longer connected to the ground. Thus, you could contaminate spare bags of soil that a vampire keeps on hand, but not the soil out in the vampire's backyard.

As an aside, given how liberal "soil of the homeland" is interpreted in Rifts (at the continent level), and that vampires can just burrow into the ground if they need to do so, it will almost never be a factor anyways.

But as a side note npc's and towns can provide the holy water.

Especially if a certain necromancer and vampire slayer can have 3866 undead soldiers waiting to wage war with the vampires.

Sure, npcs who are clergy of an appropriate deity (and the towns in which they dwell, by extension) could provide the holy water. Their ability to do that, however, is entirely independent of the ability of necromancers to have an army of mummies, so I'm not sure why you are citing that as a reason that npcs and towns can provide holy water.

Also the vampires already have lairs that are not hit by water so you would miss those and they would be unaffected by it.
There native soil is all mexico and north america for a vampire turned in mexico. As long as they are in mexico or NA they can sleep on the soil or in the earth. (so the scale of what you are trying is huge making it logistically.

There could be structures that shield soil from the hoaly water bombing.

Soil under water would not be hit by the holy water.

Does hoaly water contaminate soil that is not in the vampires sleeping lair the same?

You are basically claiming it is posible to severe the vampires connection to all the earth of its home land. That just does not seam feasible.

The holy water bombing requires a logistical operation that is unrealistic, and assumes it will just work to drive vampires away, despite many reasons it would not.

First of the need to know "when and where".

A well timed run when vamps become active is a good time. They are getting up and living. Getting ready to hunt. Dealing with slaves ect.

A well timed strike will have a chance of causing chaos, killing some vamps, and free slaves.

But there are risks. But there could be a bigger payoff if a secondary or master is caught in the mess.

Add in the fact that holy water is used, it will possibility put the vamps on defense, or into offense either way subtly will be less likely.

[dreicunan]

If you want to do a "bombing run" like this against vampires, you'd likely have an easier time of it by getting TWs to manufacture tons of storm flares to create storms over a huge area where vamps are out in the open. Those only make a storm in a 100 ft diameter but do 4d6x10 damage to vamps every half-melee round, and the fact that it is a storm gives you a good chance to actually kill them by taking them to -21 HP due to the storm preventing them from using their powers, plus even those caught in mist form will still be taking half damage (If you'd like to check that math, note that 4d6x10 averages 140 damage (max 240), resulting in an average of 280 damage per round (max 480); master's MAX HP is 260 (310 in true vampire form), average is 145 (195); max HP for a secondary is 130, average is 85; max HP for a wild is 87, average is 57 -- add 12 to the max and 7 to the average numbers for a lvl 4 vampire, another 60 for the max and 35 to the average at level 14, and at lvl 15 water attacks do half damage).

[Hawk258]

If you want to do a "bombing run" like this against vampires, you'd likely have an easier time of it by getting TWs to manufacture tons of storm flares to create storms over a huge area where vamps are out in the open. Those only make a storm in a 100 ft diameter but do 4d6x10 damage to vamps every half-melee round, and the fact that it is a storm gives you a good chance to actually kill them by taking them to -21 HP due to the storm preventing them from using their powers, plus even those caught in mist form will still be taking half damage (If you'd like to check that math, note that 4d6x10 averages 140 damage (max 240), resulting in an average of 280 damage per round (max 480); master's MAX HP is 260 (310 in true vampire form), average is 145 (195); max HP for a secondary is 130, average is 85; max HP for a wild is 87, average is 57 -- add 12 to the max and 7 to the average numbers for a lvl 4 vampire, another 60 for the max and 35 to the average at level 14, and at lvl 15 water attacks do half damage).

I could.

But that still leaves the unanswered question of "who makes the holy water?" How do you kill them (if running a vampire side adventure) or protect them if running the other side?

As noted there is a very small limited set of classes that could.

So... until that is sorted out either I hand wave it or fudge it

As I understand how you guys explain it holy water should almost be as rare as an MDC A10 thunderbolt.

[Hawk258]

Here is the scenario:

A merc vampire hunter offers the group a job.

Either ground support, escort, or protecting the aircraft while it is being loaded and security for the mages.

It causes the vampires to retaliate and attack the villages and towns.

Causing the citizens to blame the player characters and "unaffiliated" hunters.


It could be a vampire spy using the group as a tool to get the vampire clans unified.

A way to for CS intervention

For Dr. Reed to play hero and move his plans up (another mission which this could lead into).

Or more.

But it hinges on "who makes the holy water"

[taalismn]

[

Well who makes holy water in Mexico and the southern region?

If you have to hand wave the source then the limit or availability is not settled.

And leaves much to develop.

Well, obviously priests.
That raises the question, however, whether there are enough priests. Holy men, with the exception of those with martyrdom complexes or direct marching orders from their god, valuing their lives as much as the next person, would probably NOT immigrate into a region known to be rife with deadly intelligent predators. Those that do must have some serious dedication to tending to the spiritual needs of people in such areas, or want to seriously face off with the powers of darkness.
And I imagine that to qualify for a true holy priest able to bless with any potency, you've got to seriously BELIEVE, and not just take the cleric correspondence course for the sole aim of being able to produce holy water. to throw on monsters that abreact to it(not unless your deity of choice is really scrambling for ANY followers they can get).

[Hawk258]

[

Well who makes holy water in Mexico and the southern region?

If you have to hand wave the source then the limit or availability is not settled.

And leaves much to develop.

Well, obviously priests.
That raises the question, however, whether there are enough priests. Holy men, with the exception of those with martyrdom complexes or direct marching orders from their god, valuing their lives as much as the next person, would probably NOT immigrate into a region known to be rife with deadly intelligent predators. Those that do must have some serious dedication to tending to the spiritual needs of people in such areas, or want to seriously face off with the powers of darkness.
And I imagine that to qualify for a true holy priest able to bless with any potency, you've got to seriously BELIEVE, and not just take the cleric correspondence course for the sole aim of being able to produce holy water. to throw on monsters that abreact to it(not unless your deity of choice is really scrambling for ANY followers they can get).

So a class of character that still doesn't exist.

[Shark_Force]

[

Well who makes holy water in Mexico and the southern region?

If you have to hand wave the source then the limit or availability is not settled.

And leaves much to develop.

Well, obviously priests.
That raises the question, however, whether there are enough priests. Holy men, with the exception of those with martyrdom complexes or direct marching orders from their god, valuing their lives as much as the next person, would probably NOT immigrate into a region known to be rife with deadly intelligent predators. Those that do must have some serious dedication to tending to the spiritual needs of people in such areas, or want to seriously face off with the powers of darkness.
And I imagine that to qualify for a true holy priest able to bless with any potency, you've got to seriously BELIEVE, and not just take the cleric correspondence course for the sole aim of being able to produce holy water. to throw on monsters that abreact to it(not unless your deity of choice is really scrambling for ANY followers they can get).

So a class of character that still doesn't exist.

well, as mentioned, in rifts herbalism can do it. and if we're going beyond just rifts, there's a palladium fantasy OCC (and it's priests of light, who probably would be the sorts to get caught up in a crusade against vampires if they somehow wound up on rifts earth... but nothing indicates they'd be mass producing it on an industrial scale)

anyways, i don't recall there being any mention that people in mexico have any quantity of holy water. as in, i don't think it mentions one way or another. the vulnerability of vampires is mentioned, but i can't think of any place that says it is either available or unavailable.

that said, you're missing the point of the storm entirely... the storm doesn't need to be holy water. a "regular" magical storm with not-particularly-holy water works just fine.

and that is *much* more readily available to cover large areas.

[dreicunan]

[

Well who makes holy water in Mexico and the southern region?

If you have to hand wave the source then the limit or availability is not settled.

And leaves much to develop.

Well, obviously priests.
That raises the question, however, whether there are enough priests. Holy men, with the exception of those with martyrdom complexes or direct marching orders from their god, valuing their lives as much as the next person, would probably NOT immigrate into a region known to be rife with deadly intelligent predators. Those that do must have some serious dedication to tending to the spiritual needs of people in such areas, or want to seriously face off with the powers of darkness.
And I imagine that to qualify for a true holy priest able to bless with any potency, you've got to seriously BELIEVE, and not just take the cleric correspondence course for the sole aim of being able to produce holy water. to throw on monsters that abreact to it(not unless your deity of choice is really scrambling for ANY followers they can get).

So a class of character that still doesn't exist.

They do exist, see conversion book 2. The Preacher OCC also exists in New West. What would be rare is holy water made through herbal magic. Holy water from priests whose deity is considered a God of Light would logically be far more readily attainable in North America, but to what degree would be up to the GM because Kevin S has remained a bit vague on the topic of religion in Rifts overall.

If you adapt the Preist of Light from Palladium, you find out that all blessings take about a melee round and you can only bless one item at a time or the blessing loses its potency, so a single preist can do a six ounce vial per melee. Same basic math as I pointed out earlier, but preists and clergy aren't likely to be able to spend hours every day blessing water without neglecting other duties.

[Shark_Force]

[

Well who makes holy water in Mexico and the southern region?

If you have to hand wave the source then the limit or availability is not settled.

And leaves much to develop.

Well, obviously priests.
That raises the question, however, whether there are enough priests. Holy men, with the exception of those with martyrdom complexes or direct marching orders from their god, valuing their lives as much as the next person, would probably NOT immigrate into a region known to be rife with deadly intelligent predators. Those that do must have some serious dedication to tending to the spiritual needs of people in such areas, or want to seriously face off with the powers of darkness.
And I imagine that to qualify for a true holy priest able to bless with any potency, you've got to seriously BELIEVE, and not just take the cleric correspondence course for the sole aim of being able to produce holy water. to throw on monsters that abreact to it(not unless your deity of choice is really scrambling for ANY followers they can get).

So a class of character that still doesn't exist.

They do exist, see conversion book 2. The Preacher OCC also exists in New West. What would be rare is holy water made through herbal magic. Holy water from priests whose deity is considered a God of Light would logically be far more readily attainable in North America, but to what degree would be up to the GM because Kevin S has remained a bit vague on the topic of religion in Rifts overall.

If you adapt the Preist of Light from Palladium, you find out that all blessings take about a melee round and you can only bless one item at a time or the blessing loses its potency, so a single preist can do a six ounce vial per melee. Same basic math as I pointed out earlier, but preists and clergy aren't likely to be able to spend hours every day blessing water without neglecting other duties.

i'm not certain the rifts priest of light in CB2 gets the ability to make holy water.

and i'm pretty sure the preacher doesn't either.

[Hawk258]

[

Well who makes holy water in Mexico and the southern region?

If you have to hand wave the source then the limit or availability is not settled.

And leaves much to develop.

Well, obviously priests.
That raises the question, however, whether there are enough priests. Holy men, with the exception of those with martyrdom complexes or direct marching orders from their god, valuing their lives as much as the next person, would probably NOT immigrate into a region known to be rife with deadly intelligent predators. Those that do must have some serious dedication to tending to the spiritual needs of people in such areas, or want to seriously face off with the powers of darkness.
And I imagine that to qualify for a true holy priest able to bless with any potency, you've got to seriously BELIEVE, and not just take the cleric correspondence course for the sole aim of being able to produce holy water. to throw on monsters that abreact to it(not unless your deity of choice is really scrambling for ANY followers they can get).

So a class of character that still doesn't exist.

They do exist, see conversion book 2. The Preacher OCC also exists in New West. What would be rare is holy water made through herbal magic. Holy water from priests whose deity is considered a God of Light would logically be far more readily attainable in North America, but to what degree would be up to the GM because Kevin S has remained a bit vague on the topic of religion in Rifts overall.

If you adapt the Preist of Light from Palladium, you find out that all blessings take about a melee round and you can only bless one item at a time or the blessing loses its potency, so a single preist can do a six ounce vial per melee. Same basic math as I pointed out earlier, but preists and clergy aren't likely to be able to spend hours every day blessing water without neglecting other duties.

Okay show me the non-herbalist/magic way holy water is created.

[Blue_Lion]

If you want to do a "bombing run" like this against vampires, you'd likely have an easier time of it by getting TWs to manufacture tons of storm flares to create storms over a huge area where vamps are out in the open. Those only make a storm in a 100 ft diameter but do 4d6x10 damage to vamps every half-melee round, and the fact that it is a storm gives you a good chance to actually kill them by taking them to -21 HP due to the storm preventing them from using their powers, plus even those caught in mist form will still be taking half damage (If you'd like to check that math, note that 4d6x10 averages 140 damage (max 240), resulting in an average of 280 damage per round (max 480); master's MAX HP is 260 (310 in true vampire form), average is 145 (195); max HP for a secondary is 130, average is 85; max HP for a wild is 87, average is 57 -- add 12 to the max and 7 to the average numbers for a lvl 4 vampire, another 60 for the max and 35 to the average at level 14, and at lvl 15 water attacks do half damage).

Actually the storm flares are a poor choice. Summon and control rain can be used to cause rain at a range of 10 miles and radius 1 mile per level lasting 1 hour per level. (cost 200 PPE) The range and area of affect means that vampires can not simply run out of the center of it and must take shelter or have on clothing that is water restraint.


Biggest issue is spell level(12) the easiest way to get it would be to hire a level 2 high magus who has access to the spell as a standard spell. Something more feasible than finding a million mages native to England in NA.




The second biggest issue becomes as I understand it many secondary vampires wear water resistant clothing already that protects them from squirt guns. So the spell will not clean out vampires but may thin out nest of wild vampires.


Also vampires could easly have minions maning air defense so water bombers would be subject to getting shot down before they made significant progress on mexico.

[Hawk258]

So what you are all trying to tell me is there is holy water without a creator and that is so rare no one knows who it is?

Right?

Thes individual are the equivalent of Eugene of walking dead fame.

If These guys are as rare as you state, then either Doc Reed is giving them easy street life. (Which someone of that level of importance rarely goes unnoticed) or is a freaking mastermind of ungodly levels to stay hidden and still deliver holy water.

I am just going to fudge it and do it my way.

[Hawk258]

Tell me how you're going to get several tons of holy water in the first place.
'Cause if you got an efficient means of creating it in bulk, every reservoir, water treatment plant, water tank and swimming pool in the New West becomes a potential strategic target.

Well... well of plenty to name 1.

Then we have these

Angelina River
Blanco River
Bosque River
Brazos River
Colorado River
Concho River
Canadian River
Guadalupe River
James River
Lampasas River
Lavaca River
Leon River
Little River
Llano River
Navidad River
Neches River
Nolan River
Nueces River
Frio River
Paluxy River
Pease River
Pedernales River
Prairie Dog
Town Fork
Red River
Rio Grande
Devils River
Pecos River
Sabine River
San Antonio River
Medina River
San Bernard River
San Gabriel River
San Jacinto River
San Marcos River
San Saba River
Sulphur River
Trinity River
Wichita River
White River

[Hawk258]

If you want to do a "bombing run" like this against vampires, you'd likely have an easier time of it by getting TWs to manufacture tons of storm flares to create storms over a huge area where vamps are out in the open. Those only make a storm in a 100 ft diameter but do 4d6x10 damage to vamps every half-melee round, and the fact that it is a storm gives you a good chance to actually kill them by taking them to -21 HP due to the storm preventing them from using their powers, plus even those caught in mist form will still be taking half damage (If you'd like to check that math, note that 4d6x10 averages 140 damage (max 240), resulting in an average of 280 damage per round (max 480); master's MAX HP is 260 (310 in true vampire form), average is 145 (195); max HP for a secondary is 130, average is 85; max HP for a wild is 87, average is 57 -- add 12 to the max and 7 to the average numbers for a lvl 4 vampire, another 60 for the max and 35 to the average at level 14, and at lvl 15 water attacks do half damage).

Actually the storm flares are a poor choice. Summon and control rain can be used to cause rain at a range of 10 miles and radius 1 mile per level lasting 1 hour per level. (cost 200 PPE) The range and area of affect means that vampires can not simply run out of the center of it and must take shelter or have on clothing that is water restraint.


Biggest issue is spell level(12) the easiest way to get it would be to hire a level 2 high magus who has access to the spell as a standard spell. Something more feasible than finding a million mages native to England in NA.




The second biggest issue becomes as I understand it many secondary vampires wear water resistant clothing already that protects them from squirt guns. So the spell will not clean out vampires but may thin out nest of wild vampires.


Also vampires could easly have minions maning air defense so water bombers would be subject to getting shot down before they made significant progress on mexico.

VKr page 46

vampires' own arrogance and overblown sense of invincibility. There is no city within the Vampire Kingdoms that has defensive walls or fortified military positions.

[dreicunan]

So what you are all trying to tell me is there is holy water without a creator and that is so rare no one knows who it is?

Right?

Thes individual are the equivalent of Eugene of walking dead fame.

If These guys are as rare as you state, then either Doc Reed is giving them easy street life. (Which someone of that level of importance rarely goes unnoticed) or is a freaking mastermind of ungodly levels to stay hidden and still deliver holy water.

I am just going to fudge it and do it my way.

No, I already told you who gets it. VKr p. 80 makes it clear that you just need to be a priest of a god or gods of Principled or Scrupulous alignment and who would be considered a God of Light. That doesn't require you to be a member of the Priest OCC. Heck, any Christian from a denomination that accepts the priesthood of all believers could do it. GMs will, of course, make the final call on that, but RAW there are plenty of people who can make holy water that way. What we lack in VKr are clear rules on the process, likely because Kevin S never considered that anyone would try an idea like making Holy Water on an industrial scale.

[Blue_Lion]

If you want to do a "bombing run" like this against vampires, you'd likely have an easier time of it by getting TWs to manufacture tons of storm flares to create storms over a huge area where vamps are out in the open. Those only make a storm in a 100 ft diameter but do 4d6x10 damage to vamps every half-melee round, and the fact that it is a storm gives you a good chance to actually kill them by taking them to -21 HP due to the storm preventing them from using their powers, plus even those caught in mist form will still be taking half damage (If you'd like to check that math, note that 4d6x10 averages 140 damage (max 240), resulting in an average of 280 damage per round (max 480); master's MAX HP is 260 (310 in true vampire form), average is 145 (195); max HP for a secondary is 130, average is 85; max HP for a wild is 87, average is 57 -- add 12 to the max and 7 to the average numbers for a lvl 4 vampire, another 60 for the max and 35 to the average at level 14, and at lvl 15 water attacks do half damage).

Actually the storm flares are a poor choice. Summon and control rain can be used to cause rain at a range of 10 miles and radius 1 mile per level lasting 1 hour per level. (cost 200 PPE) The range and area of affect means that vampires can not simply run out of the center of it and must take shelter or have on clothing that is water restraint.


Biggest issue is spell level(12) the easiest way to get it would be to hire a level 2 high magus who has access to the spell as a standard spell. Something more feasible than finding a million mages native to England in NA.




The second biggest issue becomes as I understand it many secondary vampires wear water resistant clothing already that protects them from squirt guns. So the spell will not clean out vampires but may thin out nest of wild vampires.


Also vampires could easly have minions maning air defense so water bombers would be subject to getting shot down before they made significant progress on mexico.

VKr page 46

vampires' own arrogance and overblown sense of invincibility. There is no city within the Vampire Kingdoms that has defensive walls or fortified military positions.

Air defense does not require fortified military positions. Just vehiclles and PA with the abilty to shoot down air craft. Then once you start water bombing the vampires would order the anoying bombers be shot down. They may be argorant but they are not stupid.


Heck most cities in the US do not have defensive walls or military fortifcations but we have a rather strong military and air defense. We have military bases that do not really have fortifications.

[Proseksword]

pg. 80 of RIFTs: Vampire Kingdoms defines Holy Water as - "...ordinary water, or water mixed with oil, blessed by a priest whose god(s) is of a Scrupulous or Principled good alignment, and recognized as a God of Light."

This description is consistent with that found in the Palladium Fantasy RPG, both of which reflect no PPE cost, but the RIFTs version does not tie it to a specific O.C.C., likely to leave it open to creation by all priest O.C.C.s w/o needing to copy/paste it into each new O.C.C. published. I'd say any Priest who worships a good aligned god or goddess should be able to produce it.

The unique rules for holy water under Herbalism reflect the fact that it allows someone other than a priest to produce holy water. Normally, one must be a priest to produce holy water, but an Herbalist can produce the same effect at a PPC cost with specific ingredients.

[Hawk258]

So what you are all trying to tell me is there is holy water without a creator and that is so rare no one knows who it is?

Right?

Thes individual are the equivalent of Eugene of walking dead fame.

If These guys are as rare as you state, then either Doc Reed is giving them easy street life. (Which someone of that level of importance rarely goes unnoticed) or is a freaking mastermind of ungodly levels to stay hidden and still deliver holy water.

I am just going to fudge it and do it my way.

No, I already told you who gets it. VKr p. 80 makes it clear that you just need to be a priest of a god or gods of Principled or Scrupulous alignment and who would be considered a God of Light. That doesn't require you to be a member of the Priest OCC. Heck, any Christian from a denomination that accepts the priesthood of all believers could do it. GMs will, of course, make the final call on that, but RAW there are plenty of people who can make holy water that way. What we lack in VKr are clear rules on the process, likely because Kevin S never considered that anyone would try an idea like making Holy Water on an industrial scale.

Again "npcs" not player characters.

And it is "intended" that NPC's provide preparation for war like weapons of mass destruction or stockpiling ammo/equipment ect.

With the southern part of North America being breached and 6 alien intelligence it stands to reason that a few npc factions would decide it's a good idea.

As stated splurgorth could provide that. As holy water isn't effective against them and would be the 1 item that could be provided in mass to aid in the destruction of vampires, and in turn this would escalate the situation and even if humans win in a full war, they will be weakened and splurgorth can swoop in.

There are many ways the end plays out in a game.

A player character group could be tasked with defending the source or play death spike agents and try to destroy it.

Not realizing they just inadvertently helped humans and themselves.

Now unless I am wrong KS intention is to allow for many stories.

Is it a good idea? From a story stand point? No

Is it "possible?" Very. Any npc faction could decide this could benefit them.

Vampires would see a possible "unification" as a result

CS could see it as an excuse "clean house" of all the region.

Dr. Reed an excuse to use his WMVD sooner.

Or demons trying to cause Chaos.

Which it will.

Basically what results happen is up to the pc's.

Do they help the effort or stop it?

[dreicunan]

So what you are all trying to tell me is there is holy water without a creator and that is so rare no one knows who it is?

Right?

Thes individual are the equivalent of Eugene of walking dead fame.

If These guys are as rare as you state, then either Doc Reed is giving them easy street life. (Which someone of that level of importance rarely goes unnoticed) or is a freaking mastermind of ungodly levels to stay hidden and still deliver holy water.

I am just going to fudge it and do it my way.

No, I already told you who gets it. VKr p. 80 makes it clear that you just need to be a priest of a god or gods of Principled or Scrupulous alignment and who would be considered a God of Light. That doesn't require you to be a member of the Priest OCC. Heck, any Christian from a denomination that accepts the priesthood of all believers could do it. GMs will, of course, make the final call on that, but RAW there are plenty of people who can make holy water that way. What we lack in VKr are clear rules on the process, likely because Kevin S never considered that anyone would try an idea like making Holy Water on an industrial scale.

Again "npcs" not player characters.

And it is "intended" that NPC's provide preparation for war like weapons of mass destruction or stockpiling ammo/equipment ect.

Okay, you've lost me now. Are you asking us to specifically name who is providing holy water in the setting? Because we've listed plenty of options for npcs that could be providing it, but no, Palladium has not published "Rifts World Book 74.125: Sellers and Providers of Holy Water in North America."

We do have some info that reinforces what you have already been told: "Most priests will bless and make holy water at no cost to fight vampires, though a donation to the church is encouraged." Vampire Sourcebook p. 65

So yes, NPC priests (and the way the word is used here, pastors, preachers and other clergy should certainly be included) can make Holy Water.

[Hawk258]

So what you are all trying to tell me is there is holy water without a creator and that is so rare no one knows who it is?

Right?

Thes individual are the equivalent of Eugene of walking dead fame.

If These guys are as rare as you state, then either Doc Reed is giving them easy street life. (Which someone of that level of importance rarely goes unnoticed) or is a freaking mastermind of ungodly levels to stay hidden and still deliver holy water.

I am just going to fudge it and do it my way.

No, I already told you who gets it. VKr p. 80 makes it clear that you just need to be a priest of a god or gods of Principled or Scrupulous alignment and who would be considered a God of Light. That doesn't require you to be a member of the Priest OCC. Heck, any Christian from a denomination that accepts the priesthood of all believers could do it. GMs will, of course, make the final call on that, but RAW there are plenty of people who can make holy water that way. What we lack in VKr are clear rules on the process, likely because Kevin S never considered that anyone would try an idea like making Holy Water on an industrial scale.

Again "npcs" not player characters.

And it is "intended" that NPC's provide preparation for war like weapons of mass destruction or stockpiling ammo/equipment ect.

Okay, you've lost me now. Are you asking us to specifically name who is providing holy water in the setting? Because we've listed plenty of options for npcs that could be providing it, but no, Palladium has not published "Rifts World Book 74.125: Sellers and Providers of Holy Water in North America."

We do have some info that reinforces what you have already been told: "Most priests will bless and make holy water at no cost to fight vampires, though a donation to the church is encouraged." Vampire Sourcebook p. 65

So yes, NPC priests (and the way the word is used here, pastors, preachers and other clergy should certainly be included) can make Holy Water.

That's what I did ask for. It ended up being "debate on quantity and ability".

Initially it was stated "not on rifts" for priests and "herbalist are limited".

So yes thank you.

[Blue_Lion]

So what you are all trying to tell me is there is holy water without a creator and that is so rare no one knows who it is?

Right?

Thes individual are the equivalent of Eugene of walking dead fame.

If These guys are as rare as you state, then either Doc Reed is giving them easy street life. (Which someone of that level of importance rarely goes unnoticed) or is a freaking mastermind of ungodly levels to stay hidden and still deliver holy water.

I am just going to fudge it and do it my way.

No, I already told you who gets it. VKr p. 80 makes it clear that you just need to be a priest of a god or gods of Principled or Scrupulous alignment and who would be considered a God of Light. That doesn't require you to be a member of the Priest OCC. Heck, any Christian from a denomination that accepts the priesthood of all believers could do it. GMs will, of course, make the final call on that, but RAW there are plenty of people who can make holy water that way. What we lack in VKr are clear rules on the process, likely because Kevin S never considered that anyone would try an idea like making Holy Water on an industrial scale.

Again "npcs" not player characters.

And it is "intended" that NPC's provide preparation for war like weapons of mass destruction or stockpiling ammo/equipment ect.

Okay, you've lost me now. Are you asking us to specifically name who is providing holy water in the setting? Because we've listed plenty of options for npcs that could be providing it, but no, Palladium has not published "Rifts World Book 74.125: Sellers and Providers of Holy Water in North America."

We do have some info that reinforces what you have already been told: "Most priests will bless and make holy water at no cost to fight vampires, though a donation to the church is encouraged." Vampire Sourcebook p. 65

So yes, NPC priests (and the way the word is used here, pastors, preachers and other clergy should certainly be included) can make Holy Water.

That's what I did ask for. It ended up being "debate on quantity and ability".

Initially it was stated "not on rifts" for priests and "herbalist are limited".

So yes thank you.

Is it christen god recognized as priest of light?
How common are priest of gods of light on rifts earth?
What is the oil and how common is it source on rifts earth?

PG 80 vampire kingdom revised. "Holy water is ordinary water, or water mixed with oil, blessed by a priest whose god(s) is of a Scrupulous or Principled good alignment, and recognized as a God of Light. Holy water splashed on a vampire burns like molten lead."

[Hawk258]

The designer of Rifts has left the issue of religion deliberately vague. Conversion book2 page 13

This allows for GMs to build on it at their discretion.

The oil is blessed olive oil (for Christianity)

Which grow in orchards in the following u.s. states.
Texas, Georgia, Florida, Arizona, Oregon, Alabama, and Hawaii 

[dreicunan]

Is it christen god recognized as priest of light?
How common are priest of gods of light on rifts earth?
What is the oil and how common is it source on rifts earth?

PG 80 vampire kingdom revised. "Holy water is ordinary water, or water mixed with oil, blessed by a priest whose god(s) is of a Scrupulous or Principled good alignment, and recognized as a God of Light. Holy water splashed on a vampire burns like molten lead."

Yes, the God of Christianity would be a god of light. The whole reason for holy water and crosses being part of the vampire mythos is rooted in Christian influence and symbolism. To exclude it would be ludicrous.

[eliakon]

Is it christen god recognized as priest of light?
How common are priest of gods of light on rifts earth?
What is the oil and how common is it source on rifts earth?

PG 80 vampire kingdom revised. "Holy water is ordinary water, or water mixed with oil, blessed by a priest whose god(s) is of a Scrupulous or Principled good alignment, and recognized as a God of Light. Holy water splashed on a vampire burns like molten lead."

Yes, the God of Christianity would be a god of light. The whole reason for holy water and crosses being part of the vampire mythos is rooted in Christian influence and symbolism. To exclude it would be ludicrous.

That would be a GM call.
There is precident for yes and precident for no.
Shrugs.

I don't think that an argument about real world religions is going to be productive, nor is it going to be fruitful.
I think at the end of the day each and every GM is going to have to decide for themselves how they want to handle religion in their game and that will be how it works in their game.
I will note, that offiically, neither of the Christian clerics has any supernatural powers, nor is able to make holy water or perform exorcisims.
Neither are they officially unable to.
Like I said its a GMs call.

We are told that Ankhs work against vampires because it is a symbol of life. And this is one possible reason for why crosses work to.
Like I said its a GMs call

Holy water as a concept is something that dates back thousands of years to the dawn of religion and is not a uniquely Christian phenominan. And its use against the undead and demons was well enshrined in folk lore long before Christianity arose.
Again, like I said, its a GMs call

This doesn't even touch the subject of "what is the alignment of the Judeo-Christian God" which I wouldn't even begin to approach in a public forum out side of "that is complicated" "it depends on who you ask" and "that is a GMs call"

[Hawk258]

Is it christen god recognized as priest of light?
How common are priest of gods of light on rifts earth?
What is the oil and how common is it source on rifts earth?

PG 80 vampire kingdom revised. "Holy water is ordinary water, or water mixed with oil, blessed by a priest whose god(s) is of a Scrupulous or Principled good alignment, and recognized as a God of Light. Holy water splashed on a vampire burns like molten lead."

Yes, the God of Christianity would be a god of light. The whole reason for holy water and crosses being part of the vampire mythos is rooted in Christian influence and symbolism. To exclude it would be ludicrous.

That would be a GM call.
There is precident for yes and precident for no.
Shrugs.

I don't think that an argument about real world religions is going to be productive, nor is it going to be fruitful.
I think at the end of the day each and every GM is going to have to decide for themselves how they want to handle religion in their game and that will be how it works in their game.
I will note, that offiically, neither of the Christian clerics has any supernatural powers, nor is able to make holy water or perform exorcisims.
Neither are they officially unable to.
Like I said its a GMs call.

We are told that Ankhs work against vampires because it is a symbol of life. And this is one possible reason for why crosses work to.
Like I said its a GMs call

Holy water as a concept is something that dates back thousands of years to the dawn of religion and is not a uniquely Christian phenominan. And its use against the undead and demons was well enshrined in folk lore long before Christianity arose.
Again, like I said, its a GMs call

This doesn't even touch the subject of "what is the alignment of the Judeo-Christian God" which I wouldn't even begin to approach in a public forum out side of "that is complicated" "it depends on who you ask" and "that is a GMs call"

Well that is why KS left it Vague.

Also as noted I was addressing "holy water creators" in general not a specific group. As the gods of light are on rifts (at least at the moment of the 4 horsemen in africa)

So as noted in CB 2

they are often compelled to believe any powerful being who claims that he/she/it is a god. Some worship the being freely while others are enticed or forced into worship. In many instances, D-bees and other dimensional visitors bringnew and different religions and gods with them. Some may even have been sent by their gods to gain new converts. ost good priests can be valuable allies
against the forces of darkness, including vampires and supernatural monsters. Small communities and people under siege by dark forces are more likely to accept a priest's protection and convert to his religion.

In other words areas in the southwest u.s. and Mexico are likely fertile for followers and priests.

[Axelmania]

VKr p. 80 makes it clear that you just need to be a priest of a god or gods of Principled or Scrupulous alignment and who would be considered a God of Light.
That doesn't require you to be a member of the Priest OCC.
Heck, any Christian from a denomination that accepts the priesthood of all believers could do it
..
RAW there are plenty of people who can make holy water that way.

So you're basically saying that "priest" can somehow refer to more than just the Priest O.C.C.? One of those "is it capitalized?" games?

I guess in that case, if it ever says "ley line walker" then I don't need to be the Ley Line Walker O.C.C., I just need to be a person who walks along a ley line!