Attacks per melee for NPCs etc. from older source books

[jburkett]

Hello All, I have one last question for today. I believe that at some point the starting number of attacks per melee went up for player characters to 4 attacks/actions per melee if the character took a Hand to Hand Combat type. I want to say that prior to this it may have been 2 attacks/actions per melee but I don't know for certain. One thing I noticed going through some of the source books (some prior to RUE but perhaps some even published after RUE) is that NPC's seem to have a low number of attacks/actions per melee for their level and Hand to Hand Combat type. I have also noticed that with most of the monsters or creatures of magic, etc. that a number of attacks/actions per melee will be listed (which usually seems a bit low) as well as a number of magic attacks per melee. This leads me to believe that these were all probably created before the newer rules for attacks/actions per melee. I wanted to know if any of you have also noticed this and if you increase (I would assume by two but perhaps more) the number of attacks for NPCs or monsters etc to more evenly balance them out with PCs. Do any of you know when this change happened (was it with RUE?) and are their newer source books that are more in line with this increased number of attacks, etc? Anyhoo, I know that this may not be on everyone's radar or it may not even matter that much but any input you may have would be appreciated. Thanks!

[guardiandashi]

Hello All, I have one last question for today. I believe that at some point the starting number of attacks per melee went up for player characters to 4 attacks/actions per melee if the character took a Hand to Hand Combat type. I want to say that prior to this it may have been 2 attacks/actions per melee but I don't know for certain. One thing I noticed going through some of the source books (some prior to RUE but perhaps some even published after RUE) is that NPC's seem to have a low number of attacks/actions per melee for their level and Hand to Hand Combat type. I have also noticed that with most of the monsters or creatures of magic, etc. that a number of attacks/actions per melee will be listed (which usually seems a bit low) as well as a number of magic attacks per melee. This leads me to believe that these were all probably created before the newer rules for attacks/actions per melee. I wanted to know if any of you have also noticed this and if you increase (I would assume by two but perhaps more) the number of attacks for NPCs or monsters etc to more evenly balance them out with PCs. Do any of you know when this change happened (was it with RUE?) and are their newer source books that are more in line with this increased number of attacks, etc? Anyhoo, I know that this may not be on everyone's radar or it may not even matter that much but any input you may have would be appreciated. Thanks!

the old rule was that a character got attacks based on their hand to hand skills and additional skills that specified what additional attacks they got (like boxing adding 1 attack) then there was a rule that player characters got 2 extra attacks because they were heroes. around the time of RUE or a little before it got changed to everyone got 2 base attacks for being alive. so all the npc's got the extra attacks also.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hello All, I have one last question for today. I believe that at some point the starting number of attacks per melee went up for player characters to 4 attacks/actions per melee if the character took a Hand to Hand Combat type. I want to say that prior to this it may have been 2 attacks/actions per melee but I don't know for certain. One thing I noticed going through some of the source books (some prior to RUE but perhaps some even published after RUE) is that NPC's seem to have a low number of attacks/actions per melee for their level and Hand to Hand Combat type. I have also noticed that with most of the monsters or creatures of magic, etc. that a number of attacks/actions per melee will be listed (which usually seems a bit low) as well as a number of magic attacks per melee. This leads me to believe that these were all probably created before the newer rules for attacks/actions per melee. I wanted to know if any of you have also noticed this and if you increase (I would assume by two but perhaps more) the number of attacks for NPCs or monsters etc to more evenly balance them out with PCs. Do any of you know when this change happened (was it with RUE?) and are their newer source books that are more in line with this increased number of attacks, etc? Anyhoo, I know that this may not be on everyone's radar or it may not even matter that much but any input you may have would be appreciated. Thanks!

the old rule was that a character got attacks based on their hand to hand skills and additional skills that specified what additional attacks they got (like boxing adding 1 attack) then there was a rule that player characters got 2 extra attacks because they were heroes. around the time of RUE or a little before it got changed to everyone got 2 base attacks for being alive. so all the npc's got the extra attacks also.

The bolded was only ever possibly true in Heroes Unlimited.

In Rifts, the Two Attacks For Living were added some time around when the Atlantis book came out.
The rule was officially added in the RGMG, iirc.

[Blue_Lion]

You saw refences about it starting around when Atlantis came out, and it was edited in a few books if I recall right.(later editions of the main book had refence to it) However this caused some confusion about needing to add two attacks from hand thand. So the two attacks for being alive was baked in to hand to hand combat stats in the GMG, to try and remove confusion. (replaced with higher number of attacks in the skills.)

[jburkett]

So, in general, did players start out with two less attacks/actions per melee than they do now with the new combat rules? Would a player with Hand to Hand combat start out with only two attacks per melee. If that is the case (and this leads me back to my original question), does it make sense to increase the number of attacks/actions per melee for monsters, NPCs, etc. from Conversion Book One, Source Book One or other books where their number of attacks seem low compared to player characters? Thanks!

[Hawk258]

According to RUE page 347

the player character starts with 1 attack per melee round and 2 non-combat actions per melee round. If No HtH skill is selected.
Get +1 attack, +1 dodge, +1 Non-combat action at level 3,

At level 6 they get +2 Non-combat actions ,
At level 9 they get +1 attack, +1 non-combat action.

Unless otherwise stated in the R.C.C./O.C.C
description.

Certain characters with multiple limbs "can" have more attacks per round.

The way it is written the game is forcing you to take an HtH skill by Level 9 or you are stuck.

[jburkett]

According to RUE page 347

the player character starts with 1 attack per melee round and 2 non-combat actions per melee round. If No HtH skill is selected.
Get +1 attack, +1 dodge, +1 Non-combat action at level 3,

At level 6 they get +2 Non-combat actions ,
At level 9 they get +1 attack, +1 non-combat action.

Unless otherwise stated in the R.C.C./O.C.C
description.

Certain characters with multiple limbs "can" have more attacks per round.

The way it is written the game is forcing you to take an HtH skill by Level 9 or you are stuck.

Yes, it does seem to be a good idea to start off with HtH and the four attacks/actions per melee. As I'm reading over my initial comment it does seem that I am taking it for granted that players will choose a HtH and start with the four attacks. But, again, is this two more than were allowed under the previous rules for a starting player with HtH? And does that necessitate updating the number of attacks for monsters and NPCs from certain earlier source books? Thanks!

[guardiandashi]

According to RUE page 347

the player character starts with 1 attack per melee round and 2 non-combat actions per melee round. If No HtH skill is selected.
Get +1 attack, +1 dodge, +1 Non-combat action at level 3,

At level 6 they get +2 Non-combat actions ,
At level 9 they get +1 attack, +1 non-combat action.

Unless otherwise stated in the R.C.C./O.C.C
description.

Certain characters with multiple limbs "can" have more attacks per round.

The way it is written the game is forcing you to take an HtH skill by Level 9 or you are stuck.

Yes, it does seem to be a good idea to start off with HtH and the four attacks/actions per melee. As I'm reading over my initial comment it does seem that I am taking it for granted that players will choose a HtH and start with the four attacks. But, again, is this two more than were allowed under the previous rules for a starting player with HtH? And does that necessitate updating the number of attacks for monsters and NPCs from certain earlier source books? Thanks!

another point is in the Rifts main book it explicially called out combat as an adaption of ninjas and superspys and the TMNT rpg's
all hand to hand forms started with 2 base attacks (except assassin which started with 1, and got 2 more at second level) the non combat actions did not get added until RUE

[Killer Cyborg]

So, in general, did players start out with two less attacks/actions per melee than they do now with the new combat rules?

Yes.

Characters with no HTH skills would get 1 attack per melee.
Characters with HTH Basic, Expert, or Martial Arts would be 2x faster than the unskilled person, their HTH skill granting them 2 attacks to start instead of the 1 attack most people get.
Characters with HTH Assassin would only start with 1 attack per melee, but at 3rd level they'd get +2 attacks per melee, making them faster than the other HTH skills.

Would a player [character] with Hand to Hand combat start out with only two attacks per melee.

Yes, assuming that the PC had Basic, Expert, or Martial Arts.
Which was a fairly safe assumption, since PCs were assumed to be Heroes, and most character classes restricted HTH: Assassin to those of Evil alignment.

If that is the case (and this leads me back to my original question), does it make sense to increase the number of attacks/actions per melee for monsters, NPCs, etc. from Conversion Book One, Source Book One or other books where their number of attacks seem low compared to player characters? Thanks!

Yes, it does make sense.
But it might not be easy to compile a comprehensive list, and no matter what you do, the power balance will never go back to what it was before those extra attacks.
There are countless little decisions you'll have to make. Like with vampires, for example. In the original Vampire Kingdoms, vamps had a set number of attacks per melee (usually 5 attacks, IIRC). At the time, this made them the combat speed equivalent of a first level Juicer with Boxing.
Palladium never updated their number of attacks: in Vampire Kingdom Revised, the average vampire STILL has 5 attacks per melee, which is now the equivalent of a first level character with HTH Basic and Boxing. A first level Juicer with Boxing would now have 7 attacks per melee on average.
So it appears that Palladium either has never noticed the relative nerfing of Vampires, OR that they're okay with the nerfing.
So you'll have to decide whether to go with Palladium's original intent that vampires be significantly faster than normal humans, OR to go with their current decision to have vampires only be as fast as the average human.
And you'll have to make the same decision with Bots, who originally had 6 attacks per melee, making them faster even than low level Juicers, but who now are barely faster than an average first level character with boxing.
And when you look at Juicers... well, their +2 attacks per melee originally made them roughly 2x faster than the average low level normal human with HTH combat training. When the TAFL was slipped into the mix, Juicers (and other character types with a flat "+x attacks" bonus) got relatively nerfed because "everybody" got faster by 2 attacks.
Looking at 1st level characters with HTH basic/expert/martial arts,
Originally a normal human had 2 attacks per melee, and a Juicer had 4: Juicers were twice as fast.
Now a normal human has 4 attacks per melee, and a Juicer has 6 attacks per melee: Juicers are only 50% faster than a normal human.
Considering the fact that Juicers are literally dying for that superhuman boost, I'm not sure that 50% faster is worth it.
And Crazies, Simvan, and others that has +1 attack per melee? They were originally 50% faster, and now they're 25% faster.

So it's all kind of a mess.

(And that's not even getting into how the rule affected Mages!)

[jburkett]

So, in general, did players start out with two less attacks/actions per melee than they do now with the new combat rules?

Yes.

Characters with no HTH skills would get 1 attack per melee.
Characters with HTH Basic, Expert, or Martial Arts would be 2x faster than the unskilled person, their HTH skill granting them 2 attacks to start instead of the 1 attack most people get.
Characters with HTH Assassin would only start with 1 attack per melee, but at 3rd level they'd get +2 attacks per melee, making them faster than the other HTH skills.

Would a player [character] with Hand to Hand combat start out with only two attacks per melee.

Yes, assuming that the PC had Basic, Expert, or Martial Arts.
Which was a fairly safe assumption, since PCs were assumed to be Heroes, and most character classes restricted HTH: Assassin to those of Evil alignment.

If that is the case (and this leads me back to my original question), does it make sense to increase the number of attacks/actions per melee for monsters, NPCs, etc. from Conversion Book One, Source Book One or other books where their number of attacks seem low compared to player characters? Thanks!

Yes, it does make sense.
But it might not be easy to compile a comprehensive list, and no matter what you do, the power balance will never go back to what it was before those extra attacks.
There are countless little decisions you'll have to make. Like with vampires, for example. In the original Vampire Kingdoms, vamps had a set number of attacks per melee (usually 5 attacks, IIRC). At the time, this made them the combat speed equivalent of a first level Juicer with Boxing.
Palladium never updated their number of attacks: in Vampire Kingdom Revised, the average vampire STILL has 5 attacks per melee, which is now the equivalent of a first level character with HTH Basic and Boxing. A first level Juicer with Boxing would now have 7 attacks per melee on average.
So it appears that Palladium either has never noticed the relative nerfing of Vampires, OR that they're okay with the nerfing.
So you'll have to decide whether to go with Palladium's original intent that vampires be significantly faster than normal humans, OR to go with their current decision to have vampires only be as fast as the average human.
And you'll have to make the same decision with Bots, who originally had 6 attacks per melee, making them faster even than low level Juicers, but who now are barely faster than an average first level character with boxing.
And when you look at Juicers... well, their +2 attacks per melee originally made them roughly 2x faster than the average low level normal human with HTH combat training. When the TAFL was slipped into the mix, Juicers (and other character types with a flat "+x attacks" bonus) got relatively nerfed because "everybody" got faster by 2 attacks.
Looking at 1st level characters with HTH basic/expert/martial arts,
Originally a normal human had 2 attacks per melee, and a Juicer had 4: Juicers were twice as fast.
Now a normal human has 4 attacks per melee, and a Juicer has 6 attacks per melee: Juicers are only 50% faster than a normal human.
Considering the fact that Juicers are literally dying for that superhuman boost, I'm not sure that 50% faster is worth it.
And Crazies, Simvan, and others that has +1 attack per melee? They were originally 50% faster, and now they're 25% faster.

So it's all kind of a mess.

(And that's not even getting into how the rule affected Mages!)

Okay, thanks. This is the kind of info I was fishing for. I think that moving forward I will have to make some adjustments to monsters, creatures of magic, NPC's, etc. on a case by case basis.