Random Cyborg thoughts

[Rathorc Lemenger]

Here's the thing to understand, I've been reading the Heroes of Humanity sourcebook and some things in it made me start to think. A) Can a Cyborg be able to "shapeshift" it's body into various forms, such as i8nto an "automated" Skycycle/Rocket Bike (I know that a item/mechanism is in one of the Rifts/Phase world books that allows it) and B) Can a Cyborg clip on a SAMAS Jet Pack/flight unit?

Signed,
Rathorc Lemenger.

[taalismn]

Here's the thing to understand, I've been reading the Heroes of Humanity sourcebook and some things in it made me start to think. A) Can a Cyborg be able to "shapeshift" it's body into various forms, such as i8nto an "automated" Skycycle/Rocket Bike (I know that a item/mechanism is in one of the Rifts/Phase world books that allows it) and B) Can a Cyborg clip on a SAMAS Jet Pack/flight unit?

Signed,
Rathorc Lemenger.

I don't see why not....transformation mechanics might be quite expensive, and there's always the danger of bad engineering creating a cyborg chassis that's jack of several trades and master of none, or just plain mediocre, if not outright lame, in all its modes compared to more solidly-built fixed-form cyborgs.
There's also the idea, if you want to give up pretty much all outward traces of your humanity, getting your brain transplanted into a modified transformable vehicle like the Kitten Robofighter.

SAMAS Jetpack? Again, that's possible with. some re-engineering. Same for the various Coalition wing packs, provided the weight of the cyborg doesn't exceed that of the original flight armored pilot(it would work best with Light Machines, for example).

[torjones]

Here's the thing to understand, I've been reading the Heroes of Humanity sourcebook and some things in it made me start to think. A) Can a Cyborg be able to "shapeshift" it's body into various forms, such as i8nto an "automated" Skycycle/Rocket Bike (I know that a item/mechanism is in one of the Rifts/Phase world books that allows it) and B) Can a Cyborg clip on a SAMAS Jet Pack/flight unit?

Signed,
Rathorc Lemenger.

I would say it depends entirely upon how full conversion they are. If they are a brain in a jar, then sure.

Years ago, when I was playing a cyberdoc with telemechanics, my group came across a couple of Kitani Hover Land Skimmers, and I used the mecha-morphosis as an excuse to create Macross II style Valkyrie 'borgs with the full line of FAST Packs.

That game was a lot of fun...

[taalismn]

[
I would say it depends entirely upon how full conversion they are. If they are a brain in a jar, then sure.

Years ago, when I was playing a cyberdoc with telemechanics, my group came across a couple of Kitani Hover Land Skimmers, and I used the mecha-morphosis as an excuse to create Macross II style Valkyrie 'borgs with the full line of FAST Packs.

That game was a lot of fun...

Always wanted to do that, and started starting them out, but set the effort aside, because...well, no conversions.
Instead I built man-sized fully robotic replicas of the Destroids, using equivalent infantry weapons. Built the full collectors' set.

[Blue_Lion]

Here's the thing to understand, I've been reading the Heroes of Humanity sourcebook and some things in it made me start to think. A) Can a Cyborg be able to "shapeshift" it's body into various forms, such as i8nto an "automated" Skycycle/Rocket Bike (I know that a item/mechanism is in one of the Rifts/Phase world books that allows it) and B) Can a Cyborg clip on a SAMAS Jet Pack/flight unit?

Signed,
Rathorc Lemenger.

A I would say yes but there may be some sanity issues from non being in non human forms.

The samas flight system is not a jet pack. It is a intergraded system. While it is theoretically possible to build a similar system to a borg it would not be a clip on system. (I do think there may be cyborg jet packs out there.)

[Rathorc Lemenger]

As an addition to what I previously stated, I can somehow picture some of the enemies of the Coalition states creating Borgs with the Mecha-morphosis ability in order to infiltrate the CS in order to sabotage and/or steal state secrets.

Signed,
Rathorc Lemenger.

[ShadowLogan]

Here's the thing to understand, I've been reading the Heroes of Humanity sourcebook and some things in it made me start to think. A) Can a Cyborg be able to "shapeshift" it's body into various forms, such as i8nto an "automated" Skycycle/Rocket Bike (I know that a item/mechanism is in one of the Rifts/Phase world books that allows it) and B) Can a Cyborg clip on a SAMAS Jet Pack/flight unit?

A. Yes a limited degree of shape shifting should be possible. Definitely NOT Bay-Movie Transformers, more like 80s Mini-Bots from the transformers line (or Gobots) or something like a transforming cosplay outfit. These are real simple, more like curling them up into a ball (which a borg could do) and locking them into position (locking mechanism should costs extra), being a borg they'd also require additional sensors to be used in their alt mode (cost extra).

B. Which Model SAMAS Jet Pack/Flight unit are you talking about. With the exception of the Super SAMAS it really isn't an option, and even with the S-SAMAS I would think it would require specialized connection gear. That said, Bionic Flight options exist w/66% of the speed of stock unit (might be able to soup it up off hand I'm not sure).

Something like the Wing systems in Lonestar and Juicer Uprising I would say yes, since they are intended for Cyborg pilots (IINM).

[glitterboy2098]

Here's the thing to understand, I've been reading the Heroes of Humanity sourcebook and some things in it made me start to think. A) Can a Cyborg be able to "shapeshift" it's body into various forms, such as i8nto an "automated" Skycycle/Rocket Bike (I know that a item/mechanism is in one of the Rifts/Phase world books that allows it) and B) Can a Cyborg clip on a SAMAS Jet Pack/flight unit?

Signed,
Rathorc Lemenger.

A I would say yes but there may be some sanity issues from non being in non human forms.

given that we've never had anything to suggest non-human forms (the monsterous russian borgs, the japanese dragonborgs, the Triax cyborg fighters, etc) cause sanity issues, i'm not sure we can say that in this case.

[ShadowLogan]

Here's the thing to understand, I've been reading the Heroes of Humanity sourcebook and some things in it made me start to think. A) Can a Cyborg be able to "shapeshift" it's body into various forms, such as i8nto an "automated" Skycycle/Rocket Bike (I know that a item/mechanism is in one of the Rifts/Phase world books that allows it) and B) Can a Cyborg clip on a SAMAS Jet Pack/flight unit?

Signed,
Rathorc Lemenger.

A I would say yes but there may be some sanity issues from non being in non human forms.

given that we've never had anything to suggest non-human forms (the monsterous russian borgs, the japanese dragonborgs, the Triax cyborg fighters, etc) cause sanity issues, i'm not sure we can say that in this case.

Are you being sarcastic? (can't tell), but issues from non-human forms are a known factor.

Dragon Borgs mention issues:
Tsunami 'Borg (WB8 pg102) has a 2%+1% per year chance for insantity
Imperical Combat 'Borg (WB8 pg105) mentions the inhuman body can induce problems.
Falame Cloud Attack Borg (pg107 WB) has same issues of Imperial

VR controled units (MiO and Triax) mention psychological issues, the Dragon unit in MiO (pg74) in particular mentions similar issues.

[Blue_Lion]

Here's the thing to understand, I've been reading the Heroes of Humanity sourcebook and some things in it made me start to think. A) Can a Cyborg be able to "shapeshift" it's body into various forms, such as i8nto an "automated" Skycycle/Rocket Bike (I know that a item/mechanism is in one of the Rifts/Phase world books that allows it) and B) Can a Cyborg clip on a SAMAS Jet Pack/flight unit?

Signed,
Rathorc Lemenger.

A I would say yes but there may be some sanity issues from non being in non human forms.

given that we've never had anything to suggest non-human forms (the monsterous russian borgs, the japanese dragonborgs, the Triax cyborg fighters, etc) cause sanity issues, i'm not sure we can say that in this case.

Rifts japan dragon borgs do indicate mental issues. Not sure about the other two books you listed(do not have them with me). But I know that the dragon borgs clearly states insanity linked to the inhuman form.(so you might want to fact check.)

A lot of Tsunami 'borgs suffer from the inhuman shape and their often violent duties. After one year of service, there is a 2% chance that the character will experience some mental trauma (roll on the Random Insanity Table). This chance increases by an additional 1% every year after the first. Among the delusions and fears these cyborgs undergo includes the belief that they are "real" dragons, or an intense hatred and fear of true dragons!

All this power has some major drawbacks, however. The inhuman shape of the cyborg body can induce a number of psychological problems. Volunteers undergo several weeks of hyponsis therapy to condition them to the alien experience of being a metallic, inhuman beast, but even with it, a hight number of people have become unbalanced after several years in this 'borg. Many cybernetic warriors manage to hide their insanities and carry on the fight; some estimates claim that as many as 30% of all Imperial Cyborgs are insane or at least unstable! The more conservative government reports claim that a mere 10% have some minor psychological problems, easily treated and cured. Use the rolls described under the Tsunami 'borg, but raise the chance to 5% on the first year, +2% per additional year.

[eliakon]

Since the Russian borgs have no insanity problems at all, neither do the Chinese ones and as this would have a human form as well...
The chances of insanity would seem to be pretty remote to the point of probably not being a factor.

Japan was, to be honest, written early when "power has a price" was still a theme of Rifts instead of "moah powah is kewl"

[Blue_Lion]

Since the Russian borgs have no insanity problems at all, neither do the Chinese ones and as this would have a human form as well...
The chances of insanity would seem to be pretty remote to the point of probably not being a factor.

Japan was, to be honest, written early when "power has a price" was still a theme of Rifts instead of "moah powah is kewl"

I said may not will there is precedence.

Honestly I never read Russia or china(not interested in them), so not sure what borgs(Russia seams to be a go to for munchkin borg charters on the boards) about but as there is precedence it is a possiblity.

If it has a classic transformer changing ability it would be like the robot brain in body that also had mental issues.

[taalismn]

If you want to keep down the more radical designs that push the limits, then cyber psychosis rules are a good idea, especially if you're dealing with cyborgs using radical technologies and/or built in areas where the character doesn't have a helluva lot of psychological support to smooth things over. The fact that cyborg designs in JAPAN have psych issues, in a society that's noted for being accepting of cyborgs and 'bots, is sayin' something. Maybe it's all those extra appendages, tails, and snake necks that human bodies just don't have, that strain the convert's psyche.

Now, also understand that the cyborg culture in Japan is fairly new, compared to Russia, where the Warlords have arguably been hammering at each other since before the Twin Cities in Japan arrived back from their shortcut in time. So, between the Warlord culture and the traditional Russian mindset , or maybe built-In vodka infusers, the Russian 'Borgs have less chance of insanity...unless you're one of the Russian cyborg cyberdocs, in which case the demands of being skilled and metalled up and constantly on call drive you that much closer to the edge and over.

[dreicunan]

If you want to keep down the more radical designs that push the limits, then cyber psychosis rules are a good idea, especially if you're dealing with cyborgs using radical technologies and/or built in areas where the character doesn't have a helluva lot of psychological support to smooth things over. The fact that cyborg designs in JAPAN have psych issues, in a society that's noted for being accepting of cyborgs and 'bots, is sayin' something. Maybe it's all those extra appendages, tails, and snake necks that human bodies just don't have, that strain the convert's psyche.

Now, also understand that the cyborg culture in Japan is fairly new, compared to Russia, where the Warlords have arguably been hammering at each other since before the Twin Cities in Japan arrived back from their shortcut in time. So, between the Warlord culture and the traditional Russian mindset , or maybe built-In vodka infusers, the Russian 'Borgs have less chance of insanity...unless you're one of the Russian cyborg cyberdocs, in which case the demands of being skilled and medalled up and constantly on call drive you that much closer to the edge and over.

I vote for built-in vodka infusers being the solution.

[pad300]

If you want to keep down the more radical designs that push the limits, then cyber psychosis rules are a good idea, especially if you're dealing with cyborgs using radical technologies and/or built in areas where the character doesn't have a helluva lot of psychological support to smooth things over. The fact that cyborg designs in JAPAN have psych issues, in a society that's noted for being accepting of cyborgs and 'bots, is sayin' something. Maybe it's all those extra appendages, tails, and snake necks that human bodies just don't have, that strain the convert's psyche.

Now, also understand that the cyborg culture in Japan is fairly new, compared to Russia, where the Warlords have arguably been hammering at each other since before the Twin Cities in Japan arrived back from their shortcut in time. So, between the Warlord culture and the traditional Russian mindset , or maybe built-In vodka infusers, the Russian 'Borgs have less chance of insanity...unless you're one of the Russian cyborg cyberdocs, in which case the demands of being skilled and metalled up and constantly on call drive you that much closer to the edge and over.

I wouldn't be surprised if extremely non-human borgs need something done to the brain itself to allow it to re-wire the motor cortex to handle the weird limbs... (assuming that they weren't borg'ed as babies and "grown" by chassis upgrades/changes).

[Hawk258]

If you want to keep down the more radical designs that push the limits, then cyber psychosis rules are a good idea, especially if you're dealing with cyborgs using radical technologies and/or built in areas where the character doesn't have a helluva lot of psychological support to smooth things over. The fact that cyborg designs in JAPAN have psych issues, in a society that's noted for being accepting of cyborgs and 'bots, is sayin' something. Maybe it's all those extra appendages, tails, and snake necks that human bodies just don't have, that strain the convert's psyche.

Now, also understand that the cyborg culture in Japan is fairly new, compared to Russia, where the Warlords have arguably been hammering at each other since before the Twin Cities in Japan arrived back from their shortcut in time. So, between the Warlord culture and the traditional Russian mindset , or maybe built-In vodka infusers, the Russian 'Borgs have less chance of insanity...unless you're one of the Russian cyborg cyberdocs, in which case the demands of being skilled and metalled up and constantly on call drive you that much closer to the edge and over.

I wouldn't be surprised if extremely non-human borgs need something done to the brain itself to allow it to re-wire the motor cortex to handle the weird limbs... (assuming that they weren't borg'ed as babies and "grown" by chassis upgrades/changes).

Well as noted before that japan does lots of psychological tests before converting an individual in the case of dragon borg and has a very low insanity percentage.

Now I believe that as long as it is bipedal and the individual is has a reasonably high MA, I don't see it as an issue. As in my opinion there are individuals that do understand the basic concept of transformation and may even wish to try it out. (I believe this includes deep undercover work and multiple identities in spying. (There is always a risk of losing ones own original identity or being turned as a sympathizer).

I believe as long as it is a willing individual with a full understanding of the capabilities that go with it, then I don't see a long term issue. As borg on there own don't suffer the same risk in spite of being more mechanical than biological. So I would say 2% chance.

Unwilling individuals on the other hand will be much more prone to insanity in my opinion. Which jumps the percentage to 20 to 30 percent against their MA.

[Blue_Lion]

If you want to keep down the more radical designs that push the limits, then cyber psychosis rules are a good idea, especially if you're dealing with cyborgs using radical technologies and/or built in areas where the character doesn't have a helluva lot of psychological support to smooth things over. The fact that cyborg designs in JAPAN have psych issues, in a society that's noted for being accepting of cyborgs and 'bots, is sayin' something. Maybe it's all those extra appendages, tails, and snake necks that human bodies just don't have, that strain the convert's psyche.

Now, also understand that the cyborg culture in Japan is fairly new, compared to Russia, where the Warlords have arguably been hammering at each other since before the Twin Cities in Japan arrived back from their shortcut in time. So, between the Warlord culture and the traditional Russian mindset , or maybe built-In vodka infusers, the Russian 'Borgs have less chance of insanity...unless you're one of the Russian cyborg cyberdocs, in which case the demands of being skilled and metalled up and constantly on call drive you that much closer to the edge and over.

I wouldn't be surprised if extremely non-human borgs need something done to the brain itself to allow it to re-wire the motor cortex to handle the weird limbs... (assuming that they weren't borg'ed as babies and "grown" by chassis upgrades/changes).

Well as noted before that japan does lots of psychological tests before converting an individual in the case of dragon borg and has a very low insanity percentage.

Now I believe that as long as it is bipedal and the individual is has a reasonably high MA, I don't see it as an issue. As in my opinion there are individuals that do understand the basic concept of transformation and may even wish to try it out. (I believe this includes deep undercover work and multiple identities in spying. (There is always a risk of losing ones own original identity or being turned as a sympathizer).

I believe as long as it is a willing individual with a full understanding of the capabilities that go with it, then I don't see a long term issue. As borg on there own don't suffer the same risk in spite of being more mechanical than biological. So I would say 2% chance.

Unwilling individuals on the other hand will be much more prone to insanity in my opinion. Which jumps the percentage to 20 to 30 percent against their MA.

Did you mean ME and not MA.
ME provides bonuses to mental stress/insanity.
MA is how likeable you are.

[Hawk258]

If you want to keep down the more radical designs that push the limits, then cyber psychosis rules are a good idea, especially if you're dealing with cyborgs using radical technologies and/or built in areas where the character doesn't have a helluva lot of psychological support to smooth things over. The fact that cyborg designs in JAPAN have psych issues, in a society that's noted for being accepting of cyborgs and 'bots, is sayin' something. Maybe it's all those extra appendages, tails, and snake necks that human bodies just don't have, that strain the convert's psyche.

Now, also understand that the cyborg culture in Japan is fairly new, compared to Russia, where the Warlords have arguably been hammering at each other since before the Twin Cities in Japan arrived back from their shortcut in time. So, between the Warlord culture and the traditional Russian mindset , or maybe built-In vodka infusers, the Russian 'Borgs have less chance of insanity...unless you're one of the Russian cyborg cyberdocs, in which case the demands of being skilled and metalled up and constantly on call drive you that much closer to the edge and over.

I wouldn't be surprised if extremely non-human borgs need something done to the brain itself to allow it to re-wire the motor cortex to handle the weird limbs... (assuming that they weren't borg'ed as babies and "grown" by chassis upgrades/changes).

Well as noted before that japan does lots of psychological tests before converting an individual in the case of dragon borg and has a very low insanity percentage.

Now I believe that as long as it is bipedal and the individual is has a reasonably high MA, I don't see it as an issue. As in my opinion there are individuals that do understand the basic concept of transformation and may even wish to try it out. (I believe this includes deep undercover work and multiple identities in spying. (There is always a risk of losing ones own original identity or being turned as a sympathizer).

I believe as long as it is a willing individual with a full understanding of the capabilities that go with it, then I don't see a long term issue. As borg on there own don't suffer the same risk in spite of being more mechanical than biological. So I would say 2% chance.

Unwilling individuals on the other hand will be much more prone to insanity in my opinion. Which jumps the percentage to 20 to 30 percent against their MA.

Did you mean ME and not MA.
ME provides bonuses to mental stress/insanity.
MA is how likeable you are.

Yes ME. Though I might say MA could contribute to insanity if no one likes you.

[taalismn]

Yes ME. Though I might say MA could contribute to insanity if no one likes you.

ME= ego("me, Me, ME!")

Back when I was an undergraduate and playing CHAMPIONS, a colleague created a character that had the equivalent of uber-high ME and dismal MA. He was so outrageously self-centered that virtually NOTHING phased him, and he was convinced everybody adored and admired him as a paragon of superhero manliness. Actually, the general consensus was that he was a human-shaped form of energy held together by pure conceit(he discovered his superpowers when his coworkers at the electrical power plant pushed him into a dynamo...he simply refused to believe he'd been killed by annoyed coworkers).

[RockJock]

The new Soventski book has the weird motorcycle/borg, which seems like a "light" version of this.

What about a Triax X-6000 from Underseas with a robot soldier/brain transplant? The X-6000 isn't listed as a robot for transfer, but it also wasn't around when NGR was written.

[torjones]

I would say it depends entirely upon how full conversion they are. If they are a brain in a jar, then sure.

Years ago, when I was playing a cyberdoc with telemechanics, my group came across a couple of Kitani Hover Land Skimmers, and I used the mecha-morphosis as an excuse to create Macross II style Valkyrie 'borgs with the full line of FAST Packs.

That game was a lot of fun...

Always wanted to do that, and started starting them out, but set the effort aside, because...well, no conversions.
Instead I built man-sized fully robotic replicas of the Destroids, using equivalent infantry weapons. Built the full collectors' set.

I was under the impression that the prohibition on conversions was on doing conversions for Star Trek, Star Wars, or Gundam, rather than Macross II which is already a (former) Palladium title. To me, that means that you're all good for making a 'Borg conversion for a VF-2SS SAP Special. Though, I imagine a Mod may correct that misconception if necessary.

[eliakon]

I would say it depends entirely upon how full conversion they are. If they are a brain in a jar, then sure.

Years ago, when I was playing a cyberdoc with telemechanics, my group came across a couple of Kitani Hover Land Skimmers, and I used the mecha-morphosis as an excuse to create Macross II style Valkyrie 'borgs with the full line of FAST Packs.

That game was a lot of fun...

Always wanted to do that, and started starting them out, but set the effort aside, because...well, no conversions.
Instead I built man-sized fully robotic replicas of the Destroids, using equivalent infantry weapons. Built the full collectors' set.

I was under the impression that the prohibition on conversions was on doing conversions for Star Trek, Star Wars, or Gundam, rather than Macross II which is already a (former) Palladium title. To me, that means that you're all good for making a 'Borg conversion for a VF-2SS SAP Special. Though, I imagine a Mod may correct that misconception if necessary.

It was possible to do it when it was a Palladium title.
But now that Palladium no longer has the license to that IP, they can no longer sanction conversions.

[MadGreenSon]

Speaking of cyborgs and having issues, what kind of maniacal hyperfocus on combat do you need to have to voluntarily give up a perfectly good human body to optimize your ability to fight? I get it if you're grievously injured or whatever, but it seems to say that some people go full conversion without being badly injured or otherwise on death's door.

It's a bit extreme.

Mining borgs are even nuttier IMO since they do it to mine stuff to make money. I suppose if they're trying to support a large family or something I can see it, but if they don't have that, that's some serious greed. I mean, as a full Borg, how much can you really indulge once you get the wealth? A full Borg can't even feel a comfortable chair or taste food or anything much to actually enjoy luxury.

Not all Borgs, of course. But I think a great many may come off as a bit nuts to regular people.

[guardiandashi]

Speaking of cyborgs and having issues, what kind of maniacal hyperfocus on combat do you need to have to voluntarily give up a perfectly good human body to optimize your ability to fight? I get it if you're grievously injured or whatever, but it seems to say that some people go full conversion without being badly injured or otherwise on death's door.

It's a bit extreme.

Mining borgs are even nuttier IMO since they do it to mine stuff to make money. I suppose if they're trying to support a large family or something I can see it, but if they don't have that, that's some serious greed. I mean, as a full Borg, how much can you really indulge once you get the wealth? A full Borg can't even feel a comfortable chair or taste food or anything much to actually enjoy luxury.

Not all Borgs, of course. But I think a great many may come off as a bit nuts to regular people.

thinking about it I suspect you are forgetting a big motivation safety/security.
Now its going to sound odd or crazy, but it has to weigh in at some level which would you rather be, a normal human, that can be killed essentially without any effort by some monster, or someone really tough that fight back, in the case of the combat borgs, or in the case of the mining borg, have a significantly increased survival odds in the case of mining accidents like cave ins, digging into a water pocket or similar.

I'm not saying that to me, it doesn't still sound rather nuts, but I can see where it might make more sense to people in the rifts world.

[MadGreenSon]

Speaking of cyborgs and having issues, what kind of maniacal hyperfocus on combat do you need to have to voluntarily give up a perfectly good human body to optimize your ability to fight? I get it if you're grievously injured or whatever, but it seems to say that some people go full conversion without being badly injured or otherwise on death's door.

It's a bit extreme.

Mining borgs are even nuttier IMO since they do it to mine stuff to make money. I suppose if they're trying to support a large family or something I can see it, but if they don't have that, that's some serious greed. I mean, as a full Borg, how much can you really indulge once you get the wealth? A full Borg can't even feel a comfortable chair or taste food or anything much to actually enjoy luxury.

Not all Borgs, of course. But I think a great many may come off as a bit nuts to regular people.

thinking about it I suspect you are forgetting a big motivation safety/security.
Now its going to sound odd or crazy, but it has to weigh in at some level which would you rather be, a normal human, that can be killed essentially without any effort by some monster, or someone really tough that fight back, in the case of the combat borgs, or in the case of the mining borg, have a significantly increased survival odds in the case of mining accidents like cave ins, digging into a water pocket or similar.

I'm not saying that to me, it doesn't still sound rather nuts, but I can see where it might make more sense to people in the rifts world.

I do see that, but it's literally sacrificing everything else in the name of safety in those cases. Which while fully comprehensible, is still a bit nuts.

Which I like. Borgs get plenty of equipment flavor, but not a lot of personality flavor other than an occasional roll for insanity. The idea that most Borgs are either people who chose it in lieu of death or people who are really focused on one thing to the exclusion of most other concerns, makes for the potential to have more full Borg culture. You'd have the ones that are happy to be alive and the armor plated piles of paranoia.

Might make for fun bar scenes as a bunch of Borgs hang out having drinks they can't taste, listen to music, and either twitch at loud noises or just groove on that today is another glorious day of being alive.

[torjones]

I would say it depends entirely upon how full conversion they are. If they are a brain in a jar, then sure.

Years ago, when I was playing a cyberdoc with telemechanics, my group came across a couple of Kitani Hover Land Skimmers, and I used the mecha-morphosis as an excuse to create Macross II style Valkyrie 'borgs with the full line of FAST Packs.

That game was a lot of fun...

Always wanted to do that, and started starting them out, but set the effort aside, because...well, no conversions.
Instead I built man-sized fully robotic replicas of the Destroids, using equivalent infantry weapons. Built the full collectors' set.

I was under the impression that the prohibition on conversions was on doing conversions for Star Trek, Star Wars, or Gundam, rather than Macross II which is already a (former) Palladium title. To me, that means that you're all good for making a 'Borg conversion for a VF-2SS SAP Special. Though, I imagine a Mod may correct that misconception if necessary.

It was possible to do it when it was a Palladium title.
But now that Palladium no longer has the license to that IP, they can no longer sanction conversions.

I don't know. See, that's part of what I'm not clear on. Where exactly does the line lay, because clearly, we still have the section of the forum for that material, and we still talk about that material including its use in Rifts, and the Conversion Book (CB1 I believe) is still published with references to that material. So I don't think that talking about it's use in Rifts further as a 'borg shell would or should be prohibited. Again, I may be wrong, but I would prefer a Mod's opinion on such.

[torjones]

Speaking of cyborgs and having issues, what kind of maniacal hyperfocus on combat do you need to have to voluntarily give up a perfectly good human body to optimize your ability to fight? I get it if you're grievously injured or whatever, but it seems to say that some people go full conversion without being badly injured or otherwise on death's door.

It's a bit extreme.

Mining borgs are even nuttier IMO since they do it to mine stuff to make money. I suppose if they're trying to support a large family or something I can see it, but if they don't have that, that's some serious greed. I mean, as a full Borg, how much can you really indulge once you get the wealth? A full Borg can't even feel a comfortable chair or taste food or anything much to actually enjoy luxury.

Not all Borgs, of course. But I think a great many may come off as a bit nuts to regular people.

Given the existence of the Cyber-Humanoid, combat does not need to be the focus of a person's willingness to give up "a perfectly good" human body.

There are already reasons that people, both in game and real-world, would acquire cybernetics, especially things like head-jacks, bionic eyes, bionic ears, and so on, they allow humans to do that which they could not do naturally. They allow you to interface with computers far more rapidly and seamlessly than natural, allow you to see, hear, smell, taste, or touch, far outside the normal range of human experiences. Which part of the EM spectrum do you want to see in? gas-spectrometer for a nose? Feel the "Micro-imperfections in the skin" of a rocket that's soon to be a Warp Test Flight Vehicle? How good is the weld you just made, are there any imperfections in it, or for inspections of hundred year old bridges?

There are people today who implant tiny magnets in the tips of their fingers to create a new sense for humans that they didn't previously have. The brain literally learns to interpret the input from that magnet as an entirely new sense apart from the sense of touch.

Take that to its logical conclusion of constantly upgrading your body to do entirely new things or new abilities, and it's entirely possible that people would give up the meat-frame existence for a cybernetic shell, even with a perfectly good meat-frame, especially after you have decoupled human reproduction from said meat-frame. (something else that may well be coming soon)

[MadGreenSon]

Given the existence of the Cyber-Humanoid, combat does not need to be the focus of a person's willingness to give up "a perfectly good" human body.

While that can be the case, the Cyber Humanoid description gives the impression that it's much more an espionage chassis than a philosophical lifestyle choice.

There are already reasons that people, both in game and real-world, would acquire cybernetics, especially things like head-jacks, bionic eyes, bionic ears, and so on, they allow humans to do that which they could not do naturally. They allow you to interface with computers far more rapidly and seamlessly than natural, allow you to see, hear, smell, taste, or touch, far outside the normal range of human experiences. Which part of the EM spectrum do you want to see in? gas-spectrometer for a nose? Feel the "Micro-imperfections in the skin" of a rocket that's soon to be a Warp Test Flight Vehicle? How good is the weld you just made, are there any imperfections in it, or for inspections of hundred year old bridges?

There are people today who implant tiny magnets in the tips of their fingers to create a new sense for humans that they didn't previously have. The brain literally learns to interpret the input from that magnet as an entirely new sense apart from the sense of touch.

Take that to its logical conclusion of constantly upgrading your body to do entirely new things or new abilities, and it's entirely possible that people would give up the meat-frame existence for a cybernetic shell, even with a perfectly good meat-frame, especially after you have decoupled human reproduction from said meat-frame. (something else that may well be coming soon)

You make good points, but I don't think Rifts Earth is at the point of transhuman philosophy and exploration of new lifestyles yet. They've yet to secure themselves against very real and present danger. Once they do though? Oooooh buddy, they have not just cybernetic/bionic tech, but biotech, nanotech, magic of various kinds, and psionics to fully explore the possibilities of changing and upgrading the human (or D-Bee) condition.

It'll be a thing to see, no doubt.

The place you're likely to currently see more embracing of transhuman style ideals and exploration of that kind of life would be in the Three Galaxies, the CCW, TGE, and UWW all have overtones of transhumanisim scattered here and there in them and having cultures within each polity exploring those avenues is fully believable. (though the CCW would be shying away from the more AI focused aspects of that due to their collective trauma about AI)

That isn't to say that I think that characters who are all in for exploring transhuman or even posthuman possibilities for their own sake are out of place in Rifts. Far from it. I just don't see it becoming a pervasive cultural meme for awhile yet.

[torjones]

Given the existence of the Cyber-Humanoid, combat does not need to be the focus of a person's willingness to give up "a perfectly good" human body.

While that can be the case, the Cyber Humanoid description gives the impression that it's much more an espionage chassis than a philosophical lifestyle choice.

That is certainly the flavor for the Cyber Humanoid, and by that I mean the reason for the class itself is espionage, however, the idea behind the idea if you will is still someone that is willing to give up flesh for the capabilities and abilities that machine provides. They are people who do not necessarily see it as discarding a perfectly good body, but instead as upgrading to a better one.

There are already reasons that people, both in game and real-world, would acquire cybernetics, especially things like head-jacks, bionic eyes, bionic ears, and so on, they allow humans to do that which they could not do naturally. They allow you to interface with computers far more rapidly and seamlessly than natural, allow you to see, hear, smell, taste, or touch, far outside the normal range of human experiences. Which part of the EM spectrum do you want to see in? gas-spectrometer for a nose? Feel the "Micro-imperfections in the skin" of a rocket that's soon to be a Warp Test Flight Vehicle? How good is the weld you just made, are there any imperfections in it, or for inspections of hundred year old bridges?

There are people today who implant tiny magnets in the tips of their fingers to create a new sense for humans that they didn't previously have. The brain literally learns to interpret the input from that magnet as an entirely new sense apart from the sense of touch.

Take that to its logical conclusion of constantly upgrading your body to do entirely new things or new abilities, and it's entirely possible that people would give up the meat-frame existence for a cybernetic shell, even with a perfectly good meat-frame, especially after you have decoupled human reproduction from said meat-frame. (something else that may well be coming soon)

You make good points, but I don't think Rifts Earth is at the point of transhuman philosophy and exploration of new lifestyles yet. They've yet to secure themselves against very real and present danger. Once they do though? Oooooh buddy, they have not just cybernetic/bionic tech, but biotech, nanotech, magic of various kinds, and psionics to fully explore the possibilities of changing and upgrading the human (or D-Bee) condition.

It'll be a thing to see, no doubt.

The place you're likely to currently see more embracing of transhuman style ideals and exploration of that kind of life would be in the Three Galaxies, the CCW, TGE, and UWW all have overtones of transhumanisim scattered here and there in them and having cultures within each polity exploring those avenues is fully believable. (though the CCW would be shying away from the more AI focused aspects of that due to their collective trauma about AI)

That isn't to say that I think that characters who are all in for exploring transhuman or even posthuman possibilities for their own sake are out of place in Rifts. Far from it. I just don't see it becoming a pervasive cultural meme for awhile yet.

I think the point I was trying to get at was that Mental Illness or Mental Aberration are not necessarily required for someone to be willing to augment themselves, and to further illustrate that point we also have Juicers and Crazys (and it's the MOM implants that supposedly make them crazy, rather than having the mental illness before the procedure). I agree that Rifts Earth really isn't into the whole Philosophy thing, but you don't need the Philosophy to be able to do a thing. And I also agree that The Three Galaxies are where I would expect to find an actual philosophy of transhumanism (or transdwarfism or whatever species one happens to be augmenting). I just don't think that with all of the actual trans- and post-humans running around on Rifts Earth that it's really all that rare for it to actually occur without the actual philosophy behind it. Just in RUE, there's 6 transhuman OCCs and 10 post-humans out of a total of 27 classes, that's over half the classes in the book, so I would say that a dominant philosophy of posthumanism exists, even if nobody is really cognizant of it as a philosophy.
and just for the record, I'm calling the following classes transhuman:
Combat Cyborg, Crazy, Cyber Knight, Headhunter, Juicer, City Rat.
and the following classes posthuman, though frankly, I'm expecting disagreement on the definition I'm using:
Elemental Fusionist, Ley Line Walker, Ley Line Rifter, Mystic, Shifter, Techno-Wizard, Burster, Dog Boy, Mind Melter, Psi-Stalker.
And even if you disagree with me on magic users being post-humans, that still leaves 4 clearly post-human classes, which only reduces the post/trans humans down to a bit over a third instead of a bit over half. maybe no longer dominant, but still a significant factor in the setting, and that is a very pervasive cultural meme.

[taalismn]

The whole 'give up the meat for metal and higher pay' is most effective if you have a society technologically advanced enough to produce clone bodies(without the brains) that the 'Borg brain can re-sleeve in later. So such a society has to have both advanced bionics and bio-engineering technologies.
Work ten years in the thorium mines of Mercury, then come back and re-incarnate into a slightly younger and disease-purged clone body of yourself.

Admittedly, I use this in my munchkin Paladin Steel/Greater New England home-brew, with parallel cyborg engineering and biotech allowing people with enough money, social credit, or sponsorship to 're-sleeve'', sometimes into what amounts to a bioborg body, after serving a stint as a full conversion cyborg.
However, even such a great and apparently seamless solution to humanity loss in becoming a cyborg(I.e., the prospect of getting a flesh-and-blood body again as a reward for working hard) might prove even MORE dehumanizing on a larger scale, since such a technology, made widespread, could cause people to regard their bodies as mere vehicles, to be traded in for a better model at the slightest sign of problems, or just because the looks are no longer considered the 'In' thing.

A GM allowing such 'hopping' back and forth from 'Borg to meat-body to 'Borg and back again might consider imposing an ME test for such behavior. Doing such zigzagging might well result in long-term mental problems like a false sense of invincibility , or a decline of empathy("Me hurt other people? Oh, do be serious! They can just get new bodies!").

[guardiandashi]

The whole 'give up the meat for metal and higher pay' is most effective if you have a society technologically advanced enough to produce clone bodies(without the brains) that the 'Borg brain can re-sleeve in later. So such a society has to have both advanced bionics and bio-engineering technologies.
Work ten years in the thorium mines of Mercury, then come back and re-incarnate into a slightly younger and disease-purged clone body of yourself.

Admittedly, I use this in my munchkin Paladin Steel/Greater New England home-brew, with parallel cyborg engineering and biotech allowing people with enough money, social credit, or sponsorship to 're-sleeve'', sometimes into what amounts to a bioborg body, after serving a stint as a full conversion cyborg.
However, even such a great and apparently seamless solution to humanity loss in becoming a cyborg(I.e., the prospect of getting a flesh-and-blood body again as a reward for working hard) might prove even MORE dehumanizing on a larger scale, since such a technology, made widespread, could cause people to regard their bodies as mere vehicles, to be traded in for a better model at the slightest sign of problems, or just because the looks are no longer considered the 'In' thing.

A GM allowing such 'hopping' back and forth from 'Borg to meat-body to 'Borg and back again might consider imposing an ME test for such behavior. Doing such zigzagging might well result in long-term mental problems like a false sense of invincibility , or a decline of empathy("Me hurt other people? Oh, do be serious! They can just get new bodies!").

I can't remember the novel atm but I think it was one of the Lois McMaster Bujold (Miles Vorkosagen) verse, but there was one of the governments where they had a very low value on human life, I think it was the hagen hub, but you could do just about anything if you had enough money. There was one "house" that specialized in bioengineering and cloning. one of the off the books (but very expensive) procedures was a form of regeneration via brain transplant, which had a fairly low success ratio (I want to say ~50% but I don't remember) but was always 100% fatal to the clone's brain/personality because they would create the clone body (child) raise it to the desired age, then surgically remove the brain from the clone, and transplant the brain from the "customer" into the clone body. the odds of survival also dropped precipitously if the surgical team was bribed to have an "accident" during the transplant operation.

I want to say miles clone brother (Mark) told the story of someone he knew who was one of the clone bodies, and he met them after the transplant operation. it was one of the reasons he was deliberately trying to come up with rejuvenation technologies that were more effective, and did not rely on killing people for the process.

another example is the movie Jupiter Rising, and their regeneration process

[Hawk258]

This should help with any "issues" any type of borg has.
(Which russia/japan/ect) likely have covered on one level or another.
Rifter 54 page 64

The Tin Rapture started out as an illegal
experiment based on pre-Rifts studies, but turned into a full time occupation when it got sanctioned by the New Chillicothe authorities due to the incredible morale boost it gave their cyborg troops. Mrs. Winston uses her psychiatric training to teach her hosts and hostesses how to behave and react to some of the odd cyborg behaviorisms, like how they have an air of invincibility about them but sometimes break down and cry in intimate moments. Or how they have grown to know no fear of pain or damage, but wince or jump at the light, seductive touch of an attractive person

[dreicunan]

This should help with any "issues" any type of borg has.
(Which russia/japan/ect) likely have covered on one level or another.
Rifter 54 page 64

The Tin Rapture started out as an illegal
experiment based on pre-Rifts studies, but turned into a full time occupation when it got sanctioned by the New Chillicothe authorities due to the incredible morale boost it gave their cyborg troops. Mrs. Winston uses her psychiatric training to teach her hosts and hostesses how to behave and react to some of the odd cyborg behaviorisms, like how they have an air of invincibility about them but sometimes break down and cry in intimate moments. Or how they have grown to know no fear of pain or damage, but wince or jump at the light, seductive touch of an attractive person

When posting about Rifter material, always make sure to note if it is official material or optional. In this case, the New Chillicothe material is all optional.

[torjones]

When posting about Rifter material, always make sure to note if it is official material or optional. In this case, the New Chillicothe material is all optional.

I'm pretty sure that just coming from a Rifter makes it optional. I mean, some material is more optional than others, but the only rules you need are in RUE. Source books, World books, Conversion books, Dimension books are all Optional. You don't have to buy them, you don't have to use them. So, yeah, if it's in a Rifter, no matter how Official it is, it's still optional material.

[Shark_Force]

When posting about Rifter material, always make sure to note if it is official material or optional. In this case, the New Chillicothe material is all optional.

I'm pretty sure that just coming from a Rifter makes it optional. I mean, some material is more optional than others, but the only rules you need are in RUE. Source books, World books, Conversion books, Dimension books are all Optional. You don't have to buy them, you don't have to use them. So, yeah, if it's in a Rifter, no matter how Official it is, it's still optional material.

some of it is official. it is marked as such (often it is excess material from a book that didn't quite make it in). it is optional in a manner of speaking, but no more optional than an actual world book (that is, nobody is going to kick in your door and force you to use the world book for, say, japan, if you decide you'd like to have a game there but don't own the books) or sourcebook.

[taalismn]

[
I can't remember the novel atm but I think it was one of the Lois McMaster Bujold (Miles Vorkosagen) verse, but there was one of the governments where they had a very low value on human life, I think it was the hagen hub, but you could do just about anything if you had enough money. There was one "house" that specialized in bioengineering and cloning. one of the off the books (but very expensive) procedures was a form of regeneration via brain transplant, which had a fairly low success ratio (I want to say ~50% but I don't remember) but was always 100% fatal to the clone's brain/personality because they would create the clone body (child) raise it to the desired age, then surgically remove the brain from the clone, and transplant the brain from the "customer" into the clone body. the odds of survival also dropped precipitously if the surgical team was bribed to have an "accident" during the transplant operation.

I want to say miles clone brother (Mark) told the story of someone he knew who was one of the clone bodies, and he met them after the transplant operation. it was one of the reasons he was deliberately trying to come up with rejuvenation technologies that were more effective, and did not rely on killing people for the process.

It was Jackson's Hole....very nasty planet from the organized crime/'there ain't anything illegal is you have enough money' standpoint. Sort of like Mesa in the Honor Harrington universe.
I don't recall Mark having met a post-transplant clone. I think he was against the whole thing on the basis that he himself was a clone, meant as a tool to infiltrate Barrayar, so he acutely felt sympathy for the other tools waiting to be used and cast aside.

But yeah, I'd imagine it would be ethically easier if a different cloning process for resleeving cyborgs was found...maybe something like the 3D 'flesh printers' in Battle Angel Alita, Final Orders, or assembly like a bioborg using bio-system organs.

[Blue_Lion]

I would say it depends entirely upon how full conversion they are. If they are a brain in a jar, then sure.

Years ago, when I was playing a cyberdoc with telemechanics, my group came across a couple of Kitani Hover Land Skimmers, and I used the mecha-morphosis as an excuse to create Macross II style Valkyrie 'borgs with the full line of FAST Packs.

That game was a lot of fun...

Always wanted to do that, and started starting them out, but set the effort aside, because...well, no conversions.
Instead I built man-sized fully robotic replicas of the Destroids, using equivalent infantry weapons. Built the full collectors' set.

I was under the impression that the prohibition on conversions was on doing conversions for Star Trek, Star Wars, or Gundam, rather than Macross II which is already a (former) Palladium title. To me, that means that you're all good for making a 'Borg conversion for a VF-2SS SAP Special. Though, I imagine a Mod may correct that misconception if necessary.

It was possible to do it when it was a Palladium title.
But now that Palladium no longer has the license to that IP, they can no longer sanction conversions.

I don't know. See, that's part of what I'm not clear on. Where exactly does the line lay, because clearly, we still have the section of the forum for that material, and we still talk about that material including its use in Rifts, and the Conversion Book (CB1 I believe) is still published with references to that material. So I don't think that talking about it's use in Rifts further as a 'borg shell would or should be prohibited. Again, I may be wrong, but I would prefer a Mod's opinion on such.

If they do not have the license for it, Allowing people to post conversations can get them slapped with a lawsuit. It is a cover their hind ends rule.

[Blue_Lion]

When posting about Rifter material, always make sure to note if it is official material or optional. In this case, the New Chillicothe material is all optional.

I'm pretty sure that just coming from a Rifter makes it optional. I mean, some material is more optional than others, but the only rules you need are in RUE. Source books, World books, Conversion books, Dimension books are all Optional. You don't have to buy them, you don't have to use them. So, yeah, if it's in a Rifter, no matter how Official it is, it's still optional material.

Official= cannon.
Optional=means it is there to use but not official.-optional material is typically flagged as such.

While you do not have to use rifts japan it is official, thus cannon. Assume most debates are about what is cannon/official unless a poster says other wise.

[Hawk258]

When posting about Rifter material, always make sure to note if it is official material or optional. In this case, the New Chillicothe material is all optional.

I'm pretty sure that just coming from a Rifter makes it optional. I mean, some material is more optional than others, but the only rules you need are in RUE. Source books, World books, Conversion books, Dimension books are all Optional. You don't have to buy them, you don't have to use them. So, yeah, if it's in a Rifter, no matter how Official it is, it's still optional material.

Official= cannon.
Optional=means it is there to use but not official.-optional material is typically flagged as such.

While you do not have to use rifts japan it is official, thus cannon. Assume most debates are about what is cannon/official unless a poster says other wise.

Everything in rifts is "optional" as stated by KS numerous times in all his books.

Rifter is material KS thinks works well in the world he created.

Canon flies out the window once the dice hit the table as now you and your players are effecting the story.

Which KS did not include "You" in his story.

"Your interaction" changes canon.

Anything you chose is canon. He is just laying a basis for the story.

Can you stop the tolkeen war? Help the 4 horseman win?

Any of it is up to "the people rolling the dice"

[Blue_Lion]

When posting about Rifter material, always make sure to note if it is official material or optional. In this case, the New Chillicothe material is all optional.

I'm pretty sure that just coming from a Rifter makes it optional. I mean, some material is more optional than others, but the only rules you need are in RUE. Source books, World books, Conversion books, Dimension books are all Optional. You don't have to buy them, you don't have to use them. So, yeah, if it's in a Rifter, no matter how Official it is, it's still optional material.

Official= cannon.
Optional=means it is there to use but not official.-optional material is typically flagged as such.

While you do not have to use rifts japan it is official, thus cannon. Assume most debates are about what is cannon/official unless a poster says other wise.

Everything in rifts is "optional" as stated by KS numerous times in all his books.

Rifter is material KS thinks works well in the world he created.

Canon flies out the window once the dice hit the table as now you and your players are effecting the story.

Which KS did not include "You" in his story.

"Your interaction" changes canon.

Anything you chose is canon. He is just laying a basis for the story.

Can you stop the tolkeen war? Help the 4 horseman win?

Any of it is up to "the people rolling the dice"

At this point it is clear you do not understand the concept of cannon.

Cannon is all official material. It is always cannon even if you do not use it is still cannon.
What happens in your game is not cannon.

The Rifters are a combination of things. Fan submissions, stuff left out of books do to space issues ect. Not all of it is things keven thinks will work well, much of it is optional. Anything marked as optional is not part of the offical cannon.


You do not have to use the offical cannon in your game but it still is the offical cannon. Optional material is something that some one felt some people might like but would not work for others.

[Hawk258]

When posting about Rifter material, always make sure to note if it is official material or optional. In this case, the New Chillicothe material is all optional.

I'm pretty sure that just coming from a Rifter makes it optional. I mean, some material is more optional than others, but the only rules you need are in RUE. Source books, World books, Conversion books, Dimension books are all Optional. You don't have to buy them, you don't have to use them. So, yeah, if it's in a Rifter, no matter how Official it is, it's still optional material.

Official= cannon.
Optional=means it is there to use but not official.-optional material is typically flagged as such.

While you do not have to use rifts japan it is official, thus cannon. Assume most debates are about what is cannon/official unless a poster says other wise.

Everything in rifts is "optional" as stated by KS numerous times in all his books.

Rifter is material KS thinks works well in the world he created.

Canon flies out the window once the dice hit the table as now you and your players are effecting the story.

Which KS did not include "You" in his story.

"Your interaction" changes canon.

Anything you chose is canon. He is just laying a basis for the story.

Can you stop the tolkeen war? Help the 4 horseman win?

Any of it is up to "the people rolling the dice"

At this point it is clear you do not understand the concept of cannon.

Cannon is all official material. It is always cannon even if you do not use it is still cannon.
What happens in your game is not cannon.

The Rifters are a combination of things. Fan submissions, stuff left out of books do to space issues ect. Not all of it is things keven thinks will work well, much of it is optional. Anything marked as optional is not part of the offical cannon.


You do not have to use the offical cannon in your game but it still is the offical cannon. Optional material is something that some one felt some people might like but does not work well with the game over all thus not part of the offial cannon.

How is "our" interpretation any greater than a published concept chosen by the creator?

You don't seem to grasp "player/GM" choice.

Our opinion has far less value as KS isn't putting our ideas in print for a specific world setting.

We can discuss our interpretation of the rules all day, quote book and RAW/RAI all day, and even rifter.

At the end of the day it's up to those rolling the dice and playing the game. That's all that matters.

[Blue_Lion]

I never said my interoperation was greater than the concept chosen by the game maker. In fact unlike you I am acknowledging distinctions that are in print.


My choice to acknowlede the distinction made by the publishers does not have anything to do with the concept player, choice. I know verry well people are free to do what they want in there games. I may self have my own hose rules.


You on the other hand are ignoring distinctions between what is offical and what is optinional made by the publishing company.
Then trying to place your opioin of what is cannon above every one elses including the people that make the game.


People here unless they say other wise are discussing official cannon of the game. Optional material is not part of that normally. So when people as if something is marked official in the debate that is very relevant.

(This is getting no where and deralling the topic. I am done I have said what I need to.)

[Hawk258]

I never said my interoperation was greater than the concept chosen by the game maker. In fact unlike you I am acknowledging distinctions that are in print.


My choice to acknowlede the distinction made by the publishers does not have anything to do with the concept player, choice. I know verry well people are free to do what they want in there games. I may self have my own hose rules.


You on the other hand are ignoring distinctions between what is offical and what is optinional made by the publishing company.
Then trying to place your opioin of what is cannon above every one elses including the people that make the game.


People here unless they say other wise are discussing official cannon of the game. Optional material is not part of that normally. So when people as if something is marked official in the debate that is very relevant.

(This is getting no where and deralling the topic. I am done I have said what I need to.)

I never claimed "canon" I said "option". I don't "do" canon.

Additionally "canon" is "everything is optional" "use at your discretion" ect.

The Canon is the story. And if "options" and "use" is canon in nearly every book KS writes, then an option in rifter is just as much "canon" as anything he offers.

[taalismn]

[
At this point it is clear you do not understand the concept of cannon..

Big fire stick thing that makes loud noises, throws little hard stuff really really fast and blows up stuff, right?
Sometimes you gotta load them from the front, other kinds are belt-fed from the back.
Either way, you don't wanna be standing in front of them when they go off.

Anyways, given how much pressure that folks are under in Rifts Earth anyways, how psychotically maladjusted can a regular cyborg become anyways?
Is it a case of 'Rifts Earth people are tough to begin with' or 'straw that broke the guy's brain'?
Okay, we have the Japanese Dragon 'Borgs and the Sovietski 'Borg-docs that have built-in opportunities for insanity.
And soem features, such as 360-degree vision optics, carry an attendant chance of mental aberration with them.

Should we compose additional cyberpsychosis tables with insanity factors unique to full conversions?
Perhaps weight some bionic features more than others, such as 'non-human(old) configuration', 'transformation', 'pronounced lack of tactile sensation'? with regards to being contributing factors to the development, long term, of insanities?
And how about the effect of coping techniques? Waking up in a new cyborg body in a chop shop and getting kicked out as soon as you stand up, might be be more traumatic than having a lengthy convalescence with an attending psychologist talking you through your new life.

[Hawk258]

[
At this point it is clear you do not understand the concept of cannon..

Big fire stick thing that makes loud noises, throws little hard stuff really really fast and blows up stuff, right?
Sometimes you gotta load them from the front, other kinds are belt-fed from the back.
Either way, you don't wanna be standing in front of them when they go off.

Anyways, given how much pressure that folks are under in Rifts Earth anyways, how psychotically maladjusted can a regular cyborg become anyways?
Is it a case of 'Rifts Earth people are tough to begin with' or 'straw that broke the guy's brain'?
Okay, we have the Japanese Dragon 'Borgs and the Sovietski 'Borg-docs that have built-in opportunities for insanity.
And soem features, such as 360-degree vision optics, carry an attendant chance of mental aberration with them.

Should we compose additional cyberpsychosis tables with insanity factors unique to full conversions?
Perhaps weight some bionic features more than others, such as 'non-human(old) configuration', 'transformation', 'pronounced lack of tactile sensation'? with regards to being contributing factors to the development, long term, of insanities?
And how about the effect of coping techniques? Waking up in a new cyborg body in a chop shop and getting kicked out as soon as you stand up, might be be more traumatic than having a lengthy convalescence with an attending psychologist talking you through your new life.

Frankly "KISS" is my friend. In the case of "Tin Rapture" it can be played for giggles and actually "play" a character to the hilt.

But considering the various inhuman transformations that players willingly subject themselves to I think it should either "be played for effect" or ignored. GM/player choice.

But admittedly a well adjusted borg is likely to want to partake in the Tin Rapture service just as much as any player will want to hit the bar and knock uglies with an atlantian.

[MadGreenSon]

I think the point I was trying to get at was that Mental Illness or Mental Aberration are not necessarily required for someone to be willing to augment themselves, and to further illustrate that point we also have Juicers and Crazys (and it's the MOM implants that supposedly make them crazy, rather than having the mental illness before the procedure). I agree that Rifts Earth really isn't into the whole Philosophy thing, but you don't need the Philosophy to be able to do a thing. And I also agree that The Three Galaxies are where I would expect to find an actual philosophy of transhumanism (or transdwarfism or whatever species one happens to be augmenting). I just don't think that with all of the actual trans- and post-humans running around on Rifts Earth that it's really all that rare for it to actually occur without the actual philosophy behind it. Just in RUE, there's 6 transhuman OCCs and 10 post-humans out of a total of 27 classes, that's over half the classes in the book, so I would say that a dominant philosophy of posthumanism exists, even if nobody is really cognizant of it as a philosophy.
and just for the record, I'm calling the following classes transhuman:
Combat Cyborg, Crazy, Cyber Knight, Headhunter, Juicer, City Rat.
and the following classes posthuman, though frankly, I'm expecting disagreement on the definition I'm using:
Elemental Fusionist, Ley Line Walker, Ley Line Rifter, Mystic, Shifter, Techno-Wizard, Burster, Dog Boy, Mind Melter, Psi-Stalker.
And even if you disagree with me on magic users being post-humans, that still leaves 4 clearly post-human classes, which only reduces the post/trans humans down to a bit over a third instead of a bit over half. maybe no longer dominant, but still a significant factor in the setting, and that is a very pervasive cultural meme.

We're seemingly using slightly different definitions of what we think transhumanism is, either way this actually does bring up something I've long contemplated and that did somewhat inform my statement about 'Borgs seeming odd to people who weren't 'Borgs.

This would apply to 'Borgs, Mages, Juicers, Crazies, Psychics of all kinds, etc. and it's that all of those people have access to senses and modes of interaction with the world that those unaugmented by anything will not. This will make them seem different to the unaugmented just because these people sense more of the world than they do and interact with the world in ways they cannot. If enough sensory augmentations were stacked on one person, they may trip the unaugmented's Uncanny Valley response with prolonged interaction.

'Borgs alone can be loaded with all kinds of alternate and enhanced sense. Imagine a regular dude walking into an area 'Borgs hang out in and being disturbed by the eerie silence and extremely dim lighting with a ringing undertone as the Borgs go about their socializing using radio or ultrasonics to communicate. For them, it's a regular day at the pool hall and they hear everything just fine and the light present is more than enough since they habitually enhance it, see thermals and ultraviolet and the music playing is on a private radio signal so that each of them can adjust the volume to their taste in their own heads.

To the regular guy, it looks like they're all mimeing in the dark and playing pool, for them it's just an evening at the 'Borg Club.

So it wouldn't be so much them being crazy at all, as much as them coming off really weird to the unaugmented, I just expressed it poorly. Now I do think the mindset that led them to their 'Borg life will inform their actions and behavior and lend itself to their weirdness, but I expressed it poorly before and have now had more time to think and reflect on it.

[taalismn]

[
To the regular guy, it looks like they're all mimeing in the dark and playing pool, for them it's just an evening at the 'Borg Club.

"Dude, step back your actuators or get a software patch; that's the fifth time today you've put the stick through the top of the table!"

[MadGreenSon]

[
To the regular guy, it looks like they're all mimeing in the dark and playing pool, for them it's just an evening at the 'Borg Club.

"Dude, step back your actuators or get a software patch; that's the fifth time today you've put the stick through the top of the table!"

#BorgWorldProblems

I could see it. The only other option would be having cues and tables that would withstand heavy artillery fire.

[kaid]

Speaking of cyborgs and having issues, what kind of maniacal hyperfocus on combat do you need to have to voluntarily give up a perfectly good human body to optimize your ability to fight? I get it if you're grievously injured or whatever, but it seems to say that some people go full conversion without being badly injured or otherwise on death's door.

It's a bit extreme.

Mining borgs are even nuttier IMO since they do it to mine stuff to make money. I suppose if they're trying to support a large family or something I can see it, but if they don't have that, that's some serious greed. I mean, as a full Borg, how much can you really indulge once you get the wealth? A full Borg can't even feel a comfortable chair or taste food or anything much to actually enjoy luxury.

Not all Borgs, of course. But I think a great many may come off as a bit nuts to regular people.

Given the existence of the Cyber-Humanoid, combat does not need to be the focus of a person's willingness to give up "a perfectly good" human body.

There are already reasons that people, both in game and real-world, would acquire cybernetics, especially things like head-jacks, bionic eyes, bionic ears, and so on, they allow humans to do that which they could not do naturally. They allow you to interface with computers far more rapidly and seamlessly than natural, allow you to see, hear, smell, taste, or touch, far outside the normal range of human experiences. Which part of the EM spectrum do you want to see in? gas-spectrometer for a nose? Feel the "Micro-imperfections in the skin" of a rocket that's soon to be a Warp Test Flight Vehicle? How good is the weld you just made, are there any imperfections in it, or for inspections of hundred year old bridges?

There are people today who implant tiny magnets in the tips of their fingers to create a new sense for humans that they didn't previously have. The brain literally learns to interpret the input from that magnet as an entirely new sense apart from the sense of touch.

Take that to its logical conclusion of constantly upgrading your body to do entirely new things or new abilities, and it's entirely possible that people would give up the meat-frame existence for a cybernetic shell, even with a perfectly good meat-frame, especially after you have decoupled human reproduction from said meat-frame. (something else that may well be coming soon)

Also consider even the safest parts of rifts earth are insanely potentially dangerous environments. Any moment a rift could potentially open and vomit out god knows what demons/monsters/hostile dbees/diseases/radiations/dimensional anomalies. Something like cyber humanoid I think or the sovietski proletariat model cyber body would be pretty popular. Basically human size/weight so you can wear cloths with minor modifications to no modifications use normal human equipment/tools/entertainments combined with a body that is basically at bare minimum has durable as the highest end top of the line infantry body armor you could buy and at the high end tricked out even the lightest cyborg could be as tough as most power armors and they can still wear either cyber armors or normal human body armor to increase that level of protection. Also they are environmentally durable with easy access to filtered/extended air supplies. Fast enough to outrun danger strong enough to fight most moderate threats even unarmed and capable of packing a fair amount of concealed weaponry.

On top of that not only is your life expectancy going to be just longer in general your durability and power means you are MUCH more likely to achieve that age in the first place. In a world where a juicer conversion seems like a viable trade of high power levels for 5-7 years of life expectancy I think cyborg conversions would have a lot of appeal to a large number of people. More than could afford the procedure for sure although the sovietski proletariat model is pretty great because they found so many mothballed versions basically if you really want the procedure and are willing to fight for the mother land for a few years they can hook you up.

[taalismn]

[

I could see it. The only other option would be having cues and tables that would withstand heavy artillery fire.

Then you gotta deal with the problem of a ball skipping off the table at antitank shell speeds and going through an unarmored passerby.

Safety balls; they shatter into dust if hit with anything above a certain impact velocity. They're also made of cheap compressed and laminated sawdust.
The players gotta learn to control their strength, or they buy the balls and clean the debris off every time they screw up.