Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

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How would you prefer I present spell magic options?

Make the re-sorted spell list with all the quick essential stats.
3
23%
Make the re-sorted spell list, but don't include the quick essential stats.
2
15%
Create preferred-tactic spell lists by character level and type.
3
23%
Other (please elaborate in your reply)
1
8%
Forget it. This is a waste of time and effort. Go make more maps instead.
4
31%
 
Total votes: 13

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Hotrod
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Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Hotrod »

A few years ago at a convention game, another player watched me blow through all my character's healing potions after a fight because he didn't realize that his magic user had healing spells, and with the group sitting on a nexus point, those healing spells wouldn't cost him anything. I was a little irked, but given that he was using a premade character with the typical spell list shorthand of "all spells level 1-whatever plus a few extras," I couldn't really blame the guy.

GMs and players using new or pre-made spell-casting characters have to make snap decisions for what that character will cast on the fly with little preparation. This is awkward, and I've never played spell casters well as a player or a GM. I either avoid using them or I fail to properly use the full scope of their abilities.

Unless you're intimately familiar with the magic section, finding the best spell for a given situation from Palladium's spell lists is a needle in the haystack problem. The RUE spell section describes 158 spells over 24 pages, and most spells have specific rules and guidelines built into the specific description. Just levels 1-5 contain 75 spells. That said, the issue isn't the number of spells, but rather how Palladium presents them.

All Palladium RPG magic sections organize spells by level first, and then by alphabetical order. For a low-level mystic with only a few spells, this is no big deal; your spell list is small. However, the bigger the available spell list is, the harder it is to keep track of everything that a given character can do. I have a couple of ideas that might help fix this.

My first idea is to create a reorganized spell list with the quick essentials (level, PPE cost, duration, damage, range/radius) sorting them into separate lists by functional category, ordering them by level, and grouping them by casting time. This could save a lot of time for both GMs and players. For example, if I needed to quickly find a spell that a high-level Shifter could cast to disable an enemy in a single melee action, I could pick from a list of 15 disabling spells from level 1-5 rather than the full list of 75 spells from level 1-5.

I've created an early draft of this product, and I'd like to share it, but I'm concerned about how close this comes to treading on Palladium's copyright. The quick essentials don't reproduce all the spell-specific rules, so it wouldn't replace the spell section of RUE, but I may be going too far to share this with other fans. I could submit this to the Rifter, but with that publication about to go on hiatus, I'm skeptical that it would see print. I could also eliminate the quick essentials and only present the names, but this would make the resulting product significantly less useful than it could be, which I don't like.

My second idea is more of a character-design approach, where instead of saying that a given NPC has "all level 1-8 spell magic," I write something like "Harry's combat spell of choice is Expelliarmus, though he may resort to Sectumsempra and the Cruciatus curse against especially hated enemies under extreme circumstances." By looking over my sorted spell list, I think I could come up with some preferred options for low-level, mid-level, and high-level mages of different alignments and focuses.

This came up while I was contemplating how to make a magic-using NPC generator, but it occurred to me that what I come up with could be more broadly useful to fans than just the GMs making and using disposable NPCs on the fly. Please let me know what you think.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Honestly the answer is to learn your charters abilities. Having a metta game chart to provide quick answers is not a proper roleplaying solution. If you had no way to know another charter has healing spells then you would default to your normal way you heal. His charter should have been able to speak up and say something to you, in game. In combat people should default to what they know. If you are familiar with your charters abilities then you make choices based on them. Metta gaming tables are in my opinion a problem not a solution.


When as a GM I create npcs I also create an idea of how they will fight in combat.
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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Hotrod »

That's certainly a valid perspective, and I agree that it's important to be familiar with your character's powers. If you're playing a specific character that you made from scratch or have been playing for a long time, then of course I would expect you to know the tools you have available. Convention and Open House games aren't like that; you're often given a character sheet about a minute or two before the game begins, and flipping through the book to familiarize yourself with your options during play is likely to bog the game down. On the GMing side, while you might have a few fully prepared NPCs, most of the NPCs who interact with characters tend to be generic disposable characters. The heroes of Star Wars kill lots of stormtroopers, but only one or two big-name villains. My disposable NPC generators are all about supporting that, and I think it would be useful to be able to create and credibly play some disposable magic-using NPCs on the fly in many adventures.

I don't know what "metta list" means. The way spells are presented in the book makes it harder to wrap my head around my options. This is compounded when most magic-using NPCs in the published books come with lines like "Magic: Knows all level 1-XX spells." You call my reorganization part of the problem. RUE categorizes basic psionics, high-tech gear, bionics, and skills according to functional categories. Are these "metta lists" part of the problem you're referring to? I'm just trying to understand this point.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Hotrod wrote:That's certainly a valid perspective, and I agree that it's important to be familiar with your character's powers. If you're playing a specific character that you made from scratch or have been playing for a long time, then of course I would expect you to know the tools you have available. Convention and Open House games aren't like that; you're often given a character sheet about a minute or two before the game begins, and flipping through the book to familiarize yourself with your options during play is likely to bog the game down. On the GMing side, while you might have a few fully prepared NPCs, most of the NPCs who interact with characters tend to be generic disposable characters. The heroes of Star Wars kill lots of stormtroopers, but only one or two big-name villains. My disposable NPC generators are all about supporting that, and I think it would be useful to be able to create and credibly play some disposable magic-using NPCs on the fly in many adventures.

I don't know what "metta list" means. The way spells are presented in the book makes it harder to wrap my head around my options. This is compounded when most magic-using NPCs in the published books come with lines like "Magic: Knows all level 1-XX spells." You call my reorganization part of the problem. RUE categorizes basic psionics, high-tech gear, bionics, and skills according to functional categories. Are these "metta lists" part of the problem you're referring to? I'm just trying to understand this point.

Go with what you are familiar with and make judgments off that.
Honestly unless It is non invocation spells I can usually make on the fly judgment calls about what spell to use. Because I have a general idea of what many spells do. At most bring your own book and put sticky notes on the pages for key spells to make sure you roll the right dice. Odds are there are only about a few of the spells they have would be used in combat. Just by being familiar with magic system in general you are going to know what spells to cast. If you are constantly playing things you are not familiar with the issue is why are you not familiar with them. You may not be making optimal use of your spells in combat but then again combat is rarely optimal.


(honestly from my point of view it almost sounds like you are complaining that you are bad at playing the game.)
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Shark_Force »

i would think a few notes on basic abilities the character has would be the best route. "all spell magic 1-8" just feels weird to me for an NPC to have anyways, in most cases; i mean, when you are playing a character, do you make sure you know all level 1 spells before learning a level 2? you might wind up with most of the lower level spells if your GM makes buying spell knowledge available, but you're unlikely to wind up with all of the high level stuff.

so i'd go more with your specific notes idea, personally.

having a few sheets organized in ways that will help you remember what you can do isn't a bad idea.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Bill »

I try to build a personalized spell/power reference for each character that I hand out. That process also helps me go over the material more frequently and remember more of it while I'm running my NPCs. The sheer volume of spells and powers is quite overwhelming though.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Hotrod »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Hotrod wrote:That's certainly a valid perspective, and I agree that it's important to be familiar with your character's powers. If you're playing a specific character that you made from scratch or have been playing for a long time, then of course I would expect you to know the tools you have available. Convention and Open House games aren't like that; you're often given a character sheet about a minute or two before the game begins, and flipping through the book to familiarize yourself with your options during play is likely to bog the game down. On the GMing side, while you might have a few fully prepared NPCs, most of the NPCs who interact with characters tend to be generic disposable characters. The heroes of Star Wars kill lots of stormtroopers, but only one or two big-name villains. My disposable NPC generators are all about supporting that, and I think it would be useful to be able to create and credibly play some disposable magic-using NPCs on the fly in many adventures.

I don't know what "metta list" means. The way spells are presented in the book makes it harder to wrap my head around my options. This is compounded when most magic-using NPCs in the published books come with lines like "Magic: Knows all level 1-XX spells." You call my reorganization part of the problem. RUE categorizes basic psionics, high-tech gear, bionics, and skills according to functional categories. Are these "metta lists" part of the problem you're referring to? I'm just trying to understand this point.

Go with what you are familiar with and make judgments off that.
Honestly unless It is non invocation spells I can usually make on the fly judgment calls about what spell to use. Because I have a general idea of what many spells do. At most bring your own book and put sticky notes on the pages for key spells to make sure you roll the right dice. Odds are there are only about a few of the spells they have would be used in combat. Just by being familiar with magic system in general you are going to know what spells to cast. If you are constantly playing things you are not familiar with the issue is why are you not familiar with them. You may not be making optimal use of your spells in combat but then again combat is rarely optimal.


(honestly from my point of view it almost sounds like you are complaining that you are bad at playing the game.)

Your final remark is essentially correct. This is an aspect of the game that I am bad at playing, and I'm trying to come up with a solution that could make me more effective as a player and a GM. By more effective, I mean better at making informed decisions faster and saving everyone the time of me flipping through a dog-eared book.

A GM's knowledge of the game shouldn't need to be encyclopedic.

Rifts is a complicated and multifaceted game, and the sheer scope of what's out there can be an obstacle to gameplay. This is especially true for magic spells. I'm fine with complication is absolutely necessary or an enjoyable part of the game; the way spell lists are put together seems needlessly inaccessible to me. I generally don't like to complain about things unless I can see and be part of a better solution. This is why I make things like maps, disposable NPC generators, and it's why I've started making this re-sorted spell list.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by eliakon »

I would make a list of some of the top picks.
So say, list out their top two or three preferred, Armor spell, Sensory spell, Movement spell, healing spell, divination spell, attack spell, buff spell, debuff spells
Several of my characters are demigods and the like that might know fifty or sixty or a hundred spells... but they will typically have ten or twenty favorites that are their go-to choices for most things with the rest as a sort of "oh yeah, I can do that too can't I"

This lets the person have a "spell list" that they can use effectively that, in theory, would allow them to work adequetly...while still letting them know that "you also have all these other spells too, just these are some of your favorites".
Sort of like how your soldier might have a favorite rifle, but could realistically start the game by picking up ANY weapons out of the arms locker... but they probably wont.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

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Hotrod wrote:Your final remark is essentially correct. This is an aspect of the game that I ambad at playing, and I'm trying to come up with a solution that could make me more effective as a player and a GM. By more effective, I mean better at making informed decisions faster and saving everyone the time of me flipping through a dog-eared book.

A GM's knowledge of the game shouldn't need to be encyclopedic.

Rifts is a complicated and multifaceted game, and the sheer scope of what's out there can be an obstacle to gameplay. This is especially true for magic spells. I'm fine with complication is absolutely necessary or an enjoyable part of the game; the way spell lists are put together seems needlessly inaccessible to me. I generally don't like to complain about things unless I can see and be part of a better solution. This is why I make things like maps, disposable NPC generators, and it's why I've started making this re-sorted spell list.

And yet, a GM's knowledge of the game does need to be encyclopedic, regardless of what game they're running. As the GM you have to know everything, at least well enough that having the GM's screen in front of you gets you the information you need on the fly. Sure, spells are wildly variable, but it's not like there's an infinite amount of them, and most of them are just damage dealers, so you really only need to know a little bit about them.

If you want to get better at playing mages, then you need to play mages more often. You can also get better at playing them by rolling up one every night you aren't playing. In doing so, you have to look through their abilities, you have to read through the spells and decide which ones that particular mage would learn and why. That brings you a familiarity with the spells in a fairly rapid pace. When you are done with a gaming session, think about the encounters you had and consider the spells you as a player know and what you might have done as a mage in those situations. One thing that helped me was typing summaries into my character sheet (open office word doc) as I read each spell description. The trick to learning anything is to know how you learn best. I know it's typical high school stuff, but seriously, if you learn best by speaking about something, sit down somewhere and read the spells out loud. If you're tactile, like me, type the spell descriptions out. You're not a kid anymore, you know how important studying stuff is, or you should. Build a bridge, get over it, and just study the materials you want to learn. If it comes down to it, you'll learn the material through sheer repetition, if nothing else.

As a GM I had to do that with not just the combat system and skills systems (you have to know what skills are useful in which situations so you know what kind of skill checks to ask for), but you also need to know the psionics system and the magic system and a lot more about the different factions that your players will be engaging, and how all their gear works. As a GM I didn't memorize most of this stuff, but I knew enough that I didn't need to look every little thing up and I could use a rolodex for spells and psionics for oddball specifics. I had index cards for factions and for bits of equipment. What's in a Northern Gun survival kit? I've got an index card for that.

If it's a character that you're building, you can do plenty of that kind of stuff as well, as you build it. Sadly, pick-up games and tournament play is not so easy, unless you have done all that prep work long in advance. I still think the index cards are awesome, they are a lot quicker to flip through for specifics once you're a bit more familiar with the spells in general, but you still need that general familiarity.

For example, what are the twenty spells you choose most often? You should certainly know those spells pretty well. If you're going to play a LLW, you should also know their default spells just as well. Knowing those spells means you have to spend less time flipping and searching and deciding.

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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Another option would be to study raty's guide. ( I do not agree with all his assements about usefull ness.) You could also save it as a favorite to your phone, tablet or laptop for when you need a refence. Really study it and you should not need to have a table with you.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=142367&hilit=magic+guide

Why re-invent the wheel. Just become familiar with that and you can fake it on magic.

The ones he has listed in blue are the ones most mages would default to in combat. If nothing else memorize them.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Hotrod wrote:This came up while I was contemplating how to make a magic-using NPC generator, but it occurred to me that what I come up with could be more broadly useful to fans than just the GMs making and using disposable NPCs on the fly. Please let me know what you think.


Something to keep in mind in this, at least looking at future possible NPC generators or even options on a magic using classes are Psychic Powers. I think you'll run into the same basic issue there as well, and there aren't nearly as many such powers. So if you work something out with regard to one area, it might work with the other.

How the data gets organized and presented can be just as important as what's in the data itself. Rifts Character Sheets (mutant animal back of all places) put out by Palladium (and maybe their other lines) list the power and energy cost, but not much else though do group it by level and a check box for if you have it. Those lists are out of date (still use the RMB list, not the RUE list or even BoM list).

Still I agree just listing something like "Knows All Level #-# Spells" isn't very useful, but then neither is just having a list of said spell names without an idea of just what the spell does (most spell names are quite honest in that regard). I would suggest for the NPCs to just list their primary go to spells (with crib notes) for a given situation, and note that isn't all the spells they know (might want to list a total number of spells known) so the GM can always customize (ex. if FireBolt is a selected offensive spell, but the target is proving resistant to fire they might also know Call Lightning even if it isn't listed as a go to spell).

For PC use I don't think there is really an easy solution. Some type of cheating instrument would be very useful, but it would requires a lot of prep work.

torjones wrote:but it's not like there's an infinite amount of them, and most of them are just damage dealers, so you really only need to know a little bit about them

While it is true there is not an infinite amount of spells to worry about, the actual quantity though can be very high there are at least 273* Wizard Invocation Spells (between just RMB and WB16o, plus IINM SoT1 introduced new ones I'm not counting here), and that doesn't count the various other branches of magic in Rifts (Temporal, Necro, 4 Elementals, Biomancy, Ocean, and Tattoo) or the smaller branches (Fire, Spoiling, African, Cloud Magic, etc) or even importing spells from other lines (PF has 187 Wizard spells, not all of which are duplicated in Rifts) that aren't part of Rifts or created in the Rifters that might be in use (like Trickster or Ludicrous). Even limiting to one branch of magic, you are looking at creating a resource to cover around 300 spells (assuming Wizard).

320 Spells (assuming RMB, WB16o, and imports from PF2E main book) for Wizards, would be 7 pages long (single column, multiple columns or organization beyond simple alphabetical can alter the length) just listing the name of the spell, if you want other information (PPE cost, effect, range, saving throws, etc) you'd end up with 107 pages (for all of it, maybe less if you tinker with design and even then you'd probably be looking at 20+ pages). Obviously going with a smaller font size can also reduce things down, but how legible it would be I don't know. You could also reduce it down to just include spells known by a character (but as Hotrod points out there are NPCs with such descriptions that are quite extensive).

Nor is it true that most of those 320 spells "are just damage dealers". The vast majority are not, though there are some that have combat utility that don't involve doing damage (Armor of Ithan, Carpet of Adhesion, Horror, Thunderclap, Blinding Flash, Apparition, etc).

*quick note here, I am querying a database so the numbers are not pulled out of thin air. They might be off if given spells (or categories) aren't in the database, but IIRC Wizard Invocation list is "complete" to what I have in my collection.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by torjones »

ShadowLogan wrote:
torjones wrote:but it's not like there's an infinite amount of them, and most of them are just damage dealers, so you really only need to know a little bit about them

While it is true there is not an infinite amount of spells to worry about, the actual quantity though can be very high there are at least 273* Wizard Invocation Spells (between just RMB and WB16o, plus IINM SoT1 introduced new ones I'm not counting here), and that doesn't count the various other branches of magic in Rifts (Temporal, Necro, 4 Elementals, Biomancy, Ocean, and Tattoo) or the smaller branches (Fire, Spoiling, African, Cloud Magic, etc) or even importing spells from other lines (PF has 187 Wizard spells, not all of which are duplicated in Rifts) that aren't part of Rifts or created in the Rifters that might be in use (like Trickster or Ludicrous). Even limiting to one branch of magic, you are looking at creating a resource to cover around 300 spells (assuming Wizard).

320 Spells (assuming RMB, WB16o, and imports from PF2E main book) for Wizards, would be 7 pages long (single column, multiple columns or organization beyond simple alphabetical can alter the length) just listing the name of the spell, if you want other information (PPE cost, effect, range, saving throws, etc) you'd end up with 107 pages (for all of it, maybe less if you tinker with design and even then you'd probably be looking at 20+ pages). Obviously going with a smaller font size can also reduce things down, but how legible it would be I don't know. You could also reduce it down to just include spells known by a character (but as Hotrod points out there are NPCs with such descriptions that are quite extensive).

Nor is it true that most of those 320 spells "are just damage dealers". The vast majority are not, though there are some that have combat utility that don't involve doing damage (Armor of Ithan, Carpet of Adhesion, Horror, Thunderclap, Blinding Flash, Apparition, etc).

*quick note here, I am querying a database so the numbers are not pulled out of thin air. They might be off if given spells (or categories) aren't in the database, but IIRC Wizard Invocation list is "complete" to what I have in my collection.

I agree that there are a whole lot of them, and it was hyperbole to say that most of them are damage dealers, but the point was that you, as a player, are very likely to have a few personal favorites, and starting with memorizing those spells makes a person's life a little bit easier. Frankly, by the time you figure out which spells are your favorites, the spells you go to more often than other spells, you likely don't need to memorize anything as you've learned at least those spells through frequent use, and at least some familiarity with a good portion of the other spells from going through them so often.

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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Hotrod »

torjones wrote: Build a bridge, get over it, and just study the materials you want to learn. If it comes down to it, you'll learn the material through sheer repetition, if nothing else.
(snip)
I still think the index cards are awesome, they are a lot quicker to flip through for specifics once you're a bit more familiar with the spells in general, but you still need that general familiarity.


Going through and sorting them my way seems like a viable way to become more familiar with them, and if, in the process, I can make a useful product for other fans, I'd like to do so.

torjones wrote:For example, what are the twenty spells you choose most often? You should certainly know those spells pretty well. If you're going to play a LLW, you should also know their default spells just as well. Knowing those spells means you have to spend less time flipping and searching and deciding.

As a GM, I think it's important to be a chameleon who can play different NPCs well. If the party is going up against a bunch of magic users, it seems reasonable that those magic users shouldn't all use the same spells and tactics. Default spells should change with level, knowledge, and personal style, all of which should be variable from one NPC magic user to another.

A player may have a few favorites. A GM should not.

Blue_Lion wrote:Another option would be to study raty's guide (snip).
Why re-invent the wheel.

I'm not interested in a wheel; I'm interested in wings.

Ratty's guide on the relative practical merits of various spells amounts to an excellent review from a player's perspective that mirror's Palladium's scheme of presentation: by level, and then alphabetically.

What I'm putting together would allow me to quickly choose an appropriate spell as long as I know vaguely what a given NPC mage wants to do and the level of that mage's spell knowledge. The purpose isn't to select the best spell for a given purpose, rather to quickly select a suitable spell for a disposable NPC magic user. With this tool, the standard published NPC's "knows all level 1-xx spells" line becomes more than "figure it out yourself."

When I prepare a named magic-using NPC, I usually include something about that magic user's preferred spells and tactics. My idea with this task-category reorganization of the basic spell list is to create a far more flexible tool that I could apply to any NPC (or player character, for that matter).
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by eliakon »

At the end of the day... your really going to just have to either make some lists of preferred spells for different uses, or just become deeply immersed in the mastery of the system.
And as there several thousand unique spells in the Palladium system that's a bit of a challenge to say the least :lol:
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Hotrod »

ShadowLogan wrote:Something to keep in mind in this, at least looking at future possible NPC generators or even options on a magic using classes are Psychic Powers. I think you'll run into the same basic issue there as well, and there aren't nearly as many such powers. So if you work something out with regard to one area, it might work with the other.

How the data gets organized and presented can be just as important as what's in the data itself.


I've created both Dog Boys and Psi-Stalker NPC generators with psychic powers. Doing specialist psionics like them (or bursters) isn't too bad, because their optional extra psionics are limited, and the set of psionic powers is far more limited and better organized. I've avoided classes with more power selection flexibility for two reasons. First, it's difficult to come up with generic versions of them. Second, many powers one might select come with significant situational bonuses, which tend to complicate and enlarge the NPC generator. The Dog Boy and Psi-Stalker generators were a challenge; a Mind Melter would be more difficult. Given how spell casters tend to have an even larger repertoire of bonus-providing powers, it will likely be impossible to tally up all the situational stats that might apply in a given scenario. It would be hard enough just figuring out what such an NPC would want to cast in the first place, hence this thread.

eliakon wrote:At the end of the day... your really going to just have to either make some lists of preferred spells for different uses, or just become deeply immersed in the mastery of the system.
And as there several thousand unique spells in the Palladium system that's a bit of a challenge to say the least :lol:

If I tried to make this list much larger than the RUE spell list, it would be too much for the kind of tool I'm envisioning. I agree that the best procedure is to figure out a short list of spells for a given character; I'd like to have a tool that helps me do that in less time.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by torjones »

Hotrod wrote:
torjones wrote:For example, what are the twenty spells you choose most often? You should certainly know those spells pretty well. If you're going to play a LLW, you should also know their default spells just as well. Knowing those spells means you have to spend less time flipping and searching and deciding.

As a GM, I think it's important to be a chameleon who can play different NPCs well. If the party is going up against a bunch of magic users, it seems reasonable that those magic users shouldn't all use the same spells and tactics. Default spells should change with level, knowledge, and personal style, all of which should be variable from one NPC magic user to another.

A player may have a few favorites. A GM should not.

I was saying that as a means of learning the great quantity of spells that are out there, as someone else pointed out recently, there's 320 of the things. that's a lot of spells to memorize in one go. If you're not doing it all in one go though, and only starting with a handful of them, it's a lot easier to do. And developing a greater understanding of the spells is the best way to develop a better understanding of playing a spell caster, since spells are what makes a spell caster.

As a GM you should absolutely be able to play any character class out there, even if you aren't comfortable with every character concept. As an example, I'm not really comfortable playing a character like Garack from StarTrek DS9, even if I agree with a lot of his positions. ("You'd shoot a man in the back?" "Why not? It's the safest way, isn't it?" what makes it righteous or not IMO is the circumstances surrounding the why of the shooting someone in the back.) Maybe that's just because I don't really understand that particular character, but regardless, I'm not comfortable playing Garack, so he's never going to be an NPC in one of my games, even if I do have spy type characters. If you aren't good at playing mages, you should probably practice that by playing mages. If you're not good at playing psychics, you should likewise probably practice that by playing psychics. Also, ask around after the session, look for advice and tips for playing better. There's plenty of resources online today, it's not like it was 20 years ago when I first started playing where the only people you had to rely on for learning to be a better gamer were your fellow players and your GM. Now, there's 300 channels on youtube ready willing and enthusiastically providing regular videos on being a better player or gm. You've got twenty times that number of blogs out there doing the same thing.

Finally, I don't agree that GMs shouldn't have favorite anything. I do agree that not every mage you come across should throw out a carpet of adhesion, even if it really should be from a tactical sense one of the first few spells cast. that kind of thing gets tired and cliched rather quickly. That doesn't mean that the spell isn't one of the GM's favorites. Just like every Merc has a different armor & weapons preference, so too do psychics and mages have preferences for their powers & spells, & the GM needs to show that by not always using the same thing over and over again. That doesn't mean that they don't still have favorite spells at certain levels. Hell, most GM's even have favorite enemies to pit their players against. GMs have lots of favorites that make appearances more often than perhaps is warranted, but do anyway. What you're really saying here though, is that GM's shouldn't be human, and I hope that's not really your position. I hope that what you really meant was that GM's shouldn't play favorites, and that I entirely agree with.

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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by dreicunan »

Make your reference sheets and ignore the haters. Theycd be a useful tool for convention games, and some might find them useful in nornal sessions as well.

If I had been in your group and a player didn't realize that he could heal us, I'd have either asked the GM to remind the player that the CHARACTER most definitely would know it or have told them myself.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Typically in a school of magic there are spells and universal tactics that mages use.


IE- Most mages use magic for protection such as armor of ithan, there is also strong favoritism of CoA to immobilize foes. Typically most mages will cast at most 2-3 different direct attack spells in a fight depending on ppe reserves and the target. A group of mages that fight to gather would kind of cast the same spells and use similar tactics.

What changes over all tactics is training and goals. A group that fights together would use similar tactics even though even if not all the same person.(other wise the would not be able to effectively fight together) Members of a cult might attack even if they know they have no chance of winning. While bandits typically only attack when they think they can win(no profit in death).


A group with only one mage might come to expect him to cast certain spells in combat. A group with multiple mages would may cast the same spells or cast set chain of spells as a group. They do not have time to plan in a fight but typically most creatures are creatures of habit. They will learn that spell x or z works so use it allot.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by eliakon »

Just to drive this home people.
I am working on a master list of every canon spell palladium has ever published in any official material.
The list is currently (far) north of three thousand unique entries and looks to likely end up being near, if not over four thousand when all is said and done.
Think about that for a minute.
So the next time some one tells you that people just need to 'learn the spells' or that there aren't enough spell choices... feel free to laugh in their faces.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

eliakon wrote:Just to drive this home people.
I am working on a master list of every canon spell palladium has ever published in any official material.
The list is currently (far) north of three thousand unique entries and looks to likely end up being near, if not over four thousand when all is said and done.
Think about that for a minute.
So the next time some one tells you that people just need to 'learn the spells' or that there aren't enough spell choices... feel free to laugh in their faces.

Most of those spells are not common though.
Heck many of those spells probably are special snow flake mage spells.
You should learn what you use. If you do not know something do not use it until you do.
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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by eliakon »

Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:Just to drive this home people.
I am working on a master list of every canon spell palladium has ever published in any official material.
The list is currently (far) north of three thousand unique entries and looks to likely end up being near, if not over four thousand when all is said and done.
Think about that for a minute.
So the next time some one tells you that people just need to 'learn the spells' or that there aren't enough spell choices... feel free to laugh in their faces.

Most of those spells are not common though.
Heck many of those spells probably are special snow flake mage spells.
You should learn what you use. If you do not know something do not use it until you do.

How would you define "common"
There are (depending on how you slice it) between five hundred and a thousand generic invocations for example.
There are hundreds of invocations just in the BoM.
There isn't realistically any way for a person to learn all of the magic. Not with out spending years and years, if not decades of regular play running mages. Since that isn't actually a possible solution, suggesting it to someone isn't really being fair.

So, yeah I feel 100% confidant in saying that telling someone that they just need to suck it up and learn the magic is a cop out from people that have the advantage of already having had a decade or two of experience under there belt already. But as that's not actually something that someone can get so its not an actual solution.
That leaves us looking at actual solutions that can exist in the real world. (though if you know a way to pour a decades worth of experience into your convention players, I'm all ears :lol:)
Which is why I suggested winnowing down the larger spell lists into smaller more manageable bite sized chunks that can be learned.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by dreicunan »

eliakon wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:Just to drive this home people.
I am working on a master list of every canon spell palladium has ever published in any official material.
The list is currently (far) north of three thousand unique entries and looks to likely end up being near, if not over four thousand when all is said and done.
Think about that for a minute.
So the next time some one tells you that people just need to 'learn the spells' or that there aren't enough spell choices... feel free to laugh in their faces.

Most of those spells are not common though.
Heck many of those spells probably are special snow flake mage spells.
You should learn what you use. If you do not know something do not use it until you do.

How would you define "common"
There are (depending on how you slice it) between five hundred and a thousand generic invocations for example.
There are hundreds of invocations just in the BoM.
There isn't realistically any way for a person to learn all of the magic. Not with out spending years and years, if not decades of regular play running mages. Since that isn't actually a possible solution, suggesting it to someone isn't really being fair.

So, yeah I feel 100% confidant in saying that telling someone that they just need to suck it up and learn the magic is a cop out from people that have the advantage of already having had a decade or two of experience under there belt already. But as that's not actually something that someone can get so its not an actual solution.
That leaves us looking at actual solutions that can exist in the real world. (though if you know a way to pour a decades worth of experience into your convention players, I'm all ears :lol:)
Which is why I suggested winnowing down the larger spell lists into smaller more manageable bite sized chunks that can be learned.

Exactly. This is a really silly issue to try to beat people down about. Needing a reference doesn't make you "bad at the game," and it smacks of the kind of exclusionary antics and attitudes that so often turn people off to RPGs.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

3000+?
That sounds on the high side.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Hotrod »

Killer Cyborg wrote:3000+?
That sounds on the high side.

I'm somewhat skeptical of that number too, but if he's counting every edition of every setting Palladium has made, and especially if he's including the Rifter, it's plausible. Many early editions fall under the "can cast # of spells per day" system rather than the PPE system; would these be distinct from their PPE counterparts?

How many different kinds of magic are there in canon? I'd say dozens, and maybe half of them include some sort of spell casting.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Hotrod wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:3000+?
That sounds on the high side.

I'm somewhat skeptical of that number too, but if he's counting every edition of every setting Palladium has made, and especially if he's including the Rifter, it's plausible. Many early editions fall under the "can cast # of spells per day" system rather than the PPE system; would these be distinct from their PPE counterparts?

How many different kinds of magic are there in canon? I'd say dozens, and maybe half of them include some sort of spell casting.

The only way I see is if it includes every snow flake spell caster type of magic.
So it is likly not all spells that a leyline walker uses.
But the number does seam rather bloated.
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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Hotrod wrote: I've avoided classes with more power selection flexibility for two reasons. First, it's difficult to come up with generic versions of them. Second, many powers one might select come with significant situational bonuses, which tend to complicate and enlarge the NPC generator.

I get that, but given the variability in mages and psychics in terms of powers I am pretty much saying that if you work out one you work out the other, at least the frame work.

At least with powers like this it might be easier to simply list bonuses w/o consideration of various powers and put those power bonuses in the crib note for said power. It means manually adding bonuses in, but it might be the one of the saner methods since you might have to consider power stacking. Though at least with psychic powers MOST that do have bonuses IINM don't stack with other bonuses from the character.

Killer Cyborg wrote:3000+?
That sounds on the high side.

I have a similar (more comprehensive, though maybe not as many books) database project. Just from Rifts Book of Magic I count 925, but I purposely left out Mystic Russia stuff (as I don't have access to the book, though the Bone Magic was combined with necromancy so it is counted), but that adds another 75 plus depending on what/how eliakon "counts" as a magic power could raise the number even higher (ex. Inuit Talismans/Amulets or Native American Fetish or Stone Masters Gem powers or England's Herb Magic). It also leaves out things like OCC specific powers (ex. High Mangus Automaton related powers, or Elemental Fusionist), Rifter stuff, or material not in the BoM (like Space Magic in Fot3G, MercTown's Combat Magic, Robotech's Perytons*, TMNT's Timelords, Zenjoriki powers from Japan, Defific powers from D&G, etc) and when lists for a given branch also says "can take following spells from Wizard Invocation" but did not repeat them (ex. Ocean Magic has such an entry, those spells are omitted if they didn't repeat them in the description block).

*1E for sure, I don't have the 2E version but IINM they do have magic still as I don't have that book

Hotrod wrote:How many different kinds of magic are there in canon? I'd say dozens, and maybe half of them include some sort of spell casting.

Listing (ignoring OCC/RCC that share), depending on how you count it 30+ (most are from Rifts, I'm skipping the licensed material from RT/TMNT) and this is just the stuff I know about as I don't have a complete collection.
African Ceremonial Magic
African Witch Spells
Biomancy (SA1, IINM Lumerians have something identically named but may or may not be different)
Blue Flame (SA2)
Cloud Magic (NW, 1 or 3 based on categories)
Dolphin Magic
Elemental (1 or 4 depending on how you count the types)
Korallyte Shaping (US)
Nazcan Line Magic (SA1)
Necromancy (Africa, Mystic Russia's Bone Magic gets lumped in per BoM)
Ocean Magic (US)
Tattoo (is this one or more based on category since some branches are restricted like Arrow and Monstershaping)
Temporal Magic (England)
Whale Singer Spell Songs (US)
Wizard Invocation
Living Flame (Mystic Russia)
Spoiling Magic (Mystic Russia)
Fetish Magic (Native American, Spirit West)
Herb Magic (England)
Biowizardry (Atlantis)
Rune Magic (Atlantis, do the Nuhr Dwarves in SB4 and Japan's Rune Samurai swords fall here or separate branches? This might also count as Biowizardry)
Technowizardy
Ecowizardry (is this a separate branch or just a flavor of TW, Dinosaur Swamp)
Circle Magic (PF)
Diabolism (PF)
Elemental Fusionist (RUE, different take on Elemental)
Space Magic (Fot3G)
Zenjoriki Martial Arts Powers (PPE fueled, Japan)
Defeific Powers (D&G)
Combat Magic (?, MercTown)
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Eagle »

Years ago, I was playing 2nd edition D&D. I had always avoided playing wizards because I didn't know what most of the spells did. I didn't know what spells to pick, and I couldn't remember what anything did. Then in one game, a friend of mine went and wrote out, by hand, each spell that he had and what it did. It took him a while, but after that, he had zero problem at all.

It looked something like this:

1st level spells:
Magic Missile -- casting time 3, 200 foot range (I'm making these stats up, I don't remember them), no save, always hits, 3 bolts of D4+1 damage, may direct to multiple targets
Sleep -- casting time 3, 100 foot range, save or fall asleep for 5 minutes (unless woken up), targets with less than 5 HD do not get a save, affects everyone in 30 foot area

and so on. It was short and sweet, and had enough info that he could glance at the spell and know what it did. All the important info was there on that one page. The process of writing it out by hand really helped him remember, but then he had the reference sheet also. I basically do the exact same thing now, except I type it into a text file. If you wanted to save time, you could have a master list and just cut and paste onto the person's character sheet before you printed it. Some spells are going to be purely situational, or very rarely used. I wouldn't bother too much with those, just say "see book, page 137". You don't need to know exactly how a dimensional portal spell works -- you don't cast it every day, and when you do use it you've probably got enough time to look it up. Also some spells just suck, and you don't ever see yourself using them. You might just make a note, "crappy spells, don't use". But for your bread and butter spells you're using a lot? Yeah, a quick summary is fine. The tiniest details aren't that important, you can look those up if you need to. You want someone to be able to glance at the spell list and have a pretty good idea of what each thing does.

You might also have a small paragraph explaining commonly used spell combos, or what tactics the person normally uses in a fight. That's helpful for newcomers, or if you haven't looked at the character in a while. Sometimes even with a summary spell list, you've got like 50 things to pick from and you aren't necessarily going to spot the awesome one right away. A few notes like "Bob's best spell combo is to cast this spell, then that one, and then this other one. This gives him 500 attacks per round at 5D6x100 MD and a +30 to hit. Use sparingly, GM hates this move."
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by eliakon »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:3000+?
That sounds on the high side.

I'm somewhat skeptical of that number too, but if he's counting every edition of every setting Palladium has made, and especially if he's including the Rifter, it's plausible. Many early editions fall under the "can cast # of spells per day" system rather than the PPE system; would these be distinct from their PPE counterparts?

How many different kinds of magic are there in canon? I'd say dozens, and maybe half of them include some sort of spell casting.

The only way I see is if it includes every snow flake spell caster type of magic.
So it is likly not all spells that a leyline walker uses.
But the number does seam rather bloated.

Yes, I am counting Every single (unique) spell, from every edition of every game published by Palladium. By unique I mean that the spell must be materially different from another version of the spell to be included separately. I am though only including canon spells, not unofficial ones. So the only Rifter material, at this time, is official material.
So no, its not all spells a Ley Line Walker can use, of course not.
For spells a Ley Line Walker can use, the list is "just" several hundred or so (depending on how you interpret the rules. There is a lot of disagreements on several different kinds of magic on if they are avaliable to Ley Line Walkers or not)


The project is sort of a mess due to losing the original hard drive and having to reconstruct from back ups (and the publication of four new schools of magic while I was doing said reconstruction) but I do aim to finish it, hopefully soon.
When I get a chance, I will get a list of every school/subschool of magic in the game if you are all interested... which, while it wont show the number of spells it might help get across the diversity of magic itself.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by The Beast »

Killer Cyborg wrote:3000+?
That sounds on the high side.


My spreadsheet has 2,413 official spells and 907 from Rifters (1-70). With the official spells I have one page for the BoM, and intentionally left out the spells from the other books that were included in that book, even if the other printings had a slight difference in their descriptions (ie: PPE costs, damages, etc). I also stopped buying the books around the begining of 2015 so any spells released after that period are likely missing from my spreadsheet. If eliakon's saying there's over 3,000 official spells I'm not inclined to disagree with that number.

eliakon wrote:How would you define "common"


Well personally I'd limit it to the level 1-6 spells that appear in each settings' main book.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Mack »

My spreadsheet for building TW devices has 297 Invocations (levels 1 to 15) from the BoM.
[Pointless facts... A LLW would need 4,382 days (or 12 years) to learn them all, and if purchased it would cost just under $75,000,000.]

I can see where adding up all the various schools of magic would be in the thousands.

For Hotrod's project, I recommend picking a handful of "frequently used" spells and just go with it. Or one might pick a few different 'flavors' of mage and list their frequently used spells (an illusionist, a battle mage, a support/buffer...).
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Prince Artemis »

Do what a lot of other game systems are doing. Make cards. Could be playing card size, magic card size or even just little chits with the name and base stats on them. When you play a game, distribute the cards to the caster types and that way they have quick and easy reference. Hell, it even helps them narrow their options, as they can just remove the spells they can no longer afford to cast from their hand as the game goes on.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Prince Artemis »

Also, yeah, palladium's total spells are more in the range for 500-750 than 3000, unless you included all the rifters and even then, you're still not even close to a grand.

I know because I've actually made, through my character artemis who've I've been playing since 1999 weekly even to this day almost as many spells as palladium has, in 24 total schools, iirc. The joke in game is that he's trying to single handedly bring back the age of 1000 magics (and rampantly abuses an improved timehole).

Oh, and that is with the restriction that there's no curses, temporal magic, or damaging spells (with the restricted example of a single school) as art is not a pacifist in the strictest sense but generally prefers to avoid fighting and killing when possible. Not to say there aren't combat spells in there but most are non-lethal incapacitations more than anything else.
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Prince Artemis wrote:Also, yeah, palladium's total spells are more in the range for 500-750 than 3000, unless you included all the rifters and even then, you're still not even close to a grand.

I know because I've actually made, through my character artemis who've I've been playing since 1999 weekly even to this day almost as many spells as palladium has, in 24 total schools, iirc. The joke in game is that he's trying to single handedly bring back the age of 1000 magics (and rampantly abuses an improved timehole).

Oh, and that is with the restriction that there's no curses, temporal magic, or damaging spells (with the restricted example of a single school) as art is not a pacifist in the strictest sense but generally prefers to avoid fighting and killing when possible. Not to say there aren't combat spells in there but most are non-lethal incapacitations more than anything else.


we've got multiple people saying there are around 300 standard invocation magic spells in the book of magic alone (as in, they've got them in a spreadsheet and can clearly see that the ending number is around 300 from the starting number). throw in ocean magic, necromancy, biomancy, etc from just the rifts setting, then add in spells and specialty magic types from other settings (i don't know what PF has, but i know nightbane has some very different spells that only appear to be the same until you look closer, for example, plus a bunch of clearly setting-specific spells and specialist magic varieties). i don't know that i would have guessed 3000, but i don't have too hard of a time believing it.
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torjones
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Re: Trying to Fix My Problem with Spell Magic

Unread post by torjones »

Prince Artemis wrote:Also, yeah, palladium's total spells are more in the range for 500-750 than 3000, unless you included all the rifters and even then, you're still not even close to a grand.

I'm sorry, but the Book of Magic alone has well over 1000 spells. Your information is incorrect or seriously outdated.

May The Force be with you always.
Torrey
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