Weapon creating

[HaloR8848]

Ok I'm a new GM and even during some of the campaigns I've played in I don't get how you go about creating a weapon or armor set. Like do I need materials to first create it and if so what do different metals or materials do to that item because I'm so confused and need to know what all goes into creating items so I can further my campaign because basic rift weapons/armor are pretty garbage. Thanks

[taalismn]

Are you looking to create magic or technological arms and armor?
And what's your criteria for garbage/non-garbage?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ok I'm a new GM and even during some of the campaigns I've played in I don't get how you go about creating a weapon or armor set. Like do I need materials to first create it and if so what do different metals or materials do to that item because I'm so confused and need to know what all goes into creating items so I can further my campaign because basic rift weapons/armor are pretty garbage. Thanks

Palladium has no detailed item creation rules. It's skills are more for modifying and imporving baseline gear instead of deisgning your own.

[HaloR8848]

I get how use magic to make armor and weapons better and the power armor and stuff is ok but not good enough for what they are going against that's why I didn't know if u could make armor from complete scratch

[ShadowLogan]

Ok I'm a new GM and even during some of the campaigns I've played in I don't get how you go about creating a weapon or armor set. Like do I need materials to first create it and if so what do different metals or materials do to that item because I'm so confused and need to know what all goes into creating items so I can further my campaign because basic rift weapons/armor are pretty garbage. Thanks

In addition to what Nekira and Taalsimn said...

Well obviously you need materials to create items (well a conjurer might not). How game mechanic properties are assigned isn't known, we know that some materials exist that have special properties, but unlikely when it comes to assigning MDC/SDC/AR based on available quantity (and scaling doesn't really exist in Palladium, though there is some level of consistency)

[Killer Cyborg]

basic rift weapons/armor are pretty garbage

[Nekira Sudacne]

I get how use magic to make armor and weapons better and the power armor and stuff is ok but not good enough for what they are going against that's why I didn't know if u could make armor from complete scratch

The only class I know for a fact may do this is the Mystic Kuznya from Mystic Russia. They and both forge raw weapons and armor with their class ability, and they can also make some really impressive enchantments too.

[Hotrod]

I get how use magic to make armor and weapons better and the power armor and stuff is ok but not good enough for what they are going against that's why I didn't know if u could make armor from complete scratch

What are they going up against?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I get how use magic to make armor and weapons better and the power armor and stuff is ok but not good enough for what they are going against that's why I didn't know if u could make armor from complete scratch

What are they going up against?

Anything, really. In general and with few exceptions, average weapon damage is pretty paltry compared to average MDC quantities. When an average attack does 20-30 MDC and the average bad guy has 200-800 MDC, then winning even fights were you have an overwhelming advantage can be a slow and dull process. Which is complicated even further by palladium allowing Active Defenses where enemies with high bonuses to parry, dodge, and autododge can take the already slow "Plink plink" of weapon against armor be even more unberable by virtue of only occasionally having your pinks even land.

You can have one lone deadboy, hungry, tired, with only his basic kit, and he can still stall the game for an hour or more as a group of low level characters try to plink through 200 MDC armor one 3d6 shot at a time.

This is why I've found mages or Master Psychics to be the only classes worth playing. The most statistically optimal stratagy is to play a Master Psychic who simply spams bio-manipulation: Pralasis on every single turn, or a mage to cast "Domination" every single turn--there's usually no reason whatever to do anything else, unless it's the first round where you open with stuff like Carpet of Adhesiojn/Magic Net to keep them still while you spam Bio-manip and Domination on them.

Even if they are a juicer with a crazy high save vs. magic, it's still better to spam the Domination, because he's also got insane bonuses to dodge, so you will only hit him if he rolls low. but if your plinking him with regular weapons, he has to roll low 5-10 times for you to win, while if your casting domination, the fight is over when he rolls low once.

Master Psychics tend to be a bit better, because more beings have a high PE than ME, so most beings have a lower save vs. psionics than magic, however they tend to not have as much utility.

This is why the Royal Frilled dragon is probablly the optimal player choice. They have a large amount of starting MDC on a good roll, get decent magic, and can start with two super psionics, so Bio-manipulation and preference.

Optimal Play: transform into a small creature, use innate shadow meld, and spam Bio-Manipulation and/or Domination (Once they're high enough level) every turn, depending on if the opponent is weaker vs magic or psionics. Unless the other side has a dog boy or psi-stalker, they won't have any way to even find you while you gradually mind control them to start turning on each-other.

Repeat for every encounter. Enjoy the glares the GM sends your way.

[Killer Cyborg]

I get how use magic to make armor and weapons better and the power armor and stuff is ok but not good enough for what they are going against that's why I didn't know if u could make armor from complete scratch

What are they going up against?

Anything, really. In general and with few exceptions, average weapon damage is pretty paltry compared to average MDC quantities.

Since he's looking for "better weapons and armor," I don't think that's his issue.
Or maybe it is, but he doesn't realize that if he improves both weapons and armor, then there's going to be the same stalemate at a higher level.

When an average attack does 20-30 MDC and the average bad guy has 200-800 MDC,

Then the GM needs to use more appropriate bad guys to the PC's power level.
That's kinda like saying, "When your average punch does 1d4 SDC, but the average car has 200-800 SDC...."
I think it just implies that there are some unrealistic expectations of what you're supposed to fight.

You can have one lone deadboy, hungry, tired, with only his basic kit, and he can still stall the game for an hour or more as a group of low level characters try to plink through 200 MDC armor one 3d6 shot at a time.

200 MDC is "basic kit?"

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's a dead boys standard issue armor yes

[Killer Cyborg]

It's a dead boys standard issue armor yes

"Standard issue?"
Or "The most powerful body armor that's technically allowable as part of mission-dependent starting equipment?"
Because there's a big difference.

And which armor are you talking about? The CA-6EX Exoskeleton (CWC 102) that's "typically reserved for Special forces, platoon sergeants, commissioned officers, rail gunners, and loyal soldiers who have an impressive natural strength or speed (21 or greater)?"

Or have the newer books bumped up body armor yet again with the demon war and such?

As of CWC, the CA-4 Standard Dead Boy Armor was the standard issue, and it has 100 MDC.
Of course, the standard CS infantry rifle at the time as the CP-40, which does 6d6 MD per pulse (same as the L-20 in the RMB), so I'm not sure where you're getting 3d6 as a standard attack.
Unless you're deliberately picking and choosing low-end weapons and high-end armor, then complaining that the low-end weapons can't easily overcome the high-end armor.


Edit:
Just running the numbers, btw, the average damage of a 6d6 MD weapon is 21 MD, which would mean that it takes an average of 5 shots to take out 100 MDC armor.
If you've got a team of 5 characters, that means it'd take 1 successful attack each to drop the guy.
Even with 3d6 MD weapons, that's an average of 10.5 MD per attack. A team of 5 adventurers against a guy in 100 MDC armor will take an average of successful 2 attacks each to drop the bad guy. That doesn't seem outrageous.
Even with the 200 MDC armor, we're talking 4 successful per party member.
Considering each party member will probably have 4-5 attacks at first level, that means it'd be perfectly possible to drop the guy in a single melee round, and would be likely to drop the guy within 2 melee rounds.
Even if the guy hangs on for 3 rounds, that's not exactly the fight of the century.

[HaloR8848]

Ok I'm good I figured some things out and thanks for helping everything should be good now

[Blue_Lion]

creation requires house rules.
Basically it should require starting material to build anything.


General rule of thumb I would say is a % of the cost of a similar pure tech device in raw goods.
Basically find a suit or weapon with same amount of MDC the for the item you want to build. Charge a fraction of the cost for the suit in materials then come up a cost for special features. Time to build a energy weapon or suit of armor by hand should be greater than a week.


I require blue prints or prototyping that can require to make advanced armor or weapons prototyping can take weeks or months even with common tech principles.


None-TW Non-exoskeletal body armor has a max MDC of 120 MDC. (found in sot -cyberknights.)

[Blue_Lion]

basic rift weapons/armor are pretty garbage

The only problem I see is they lack the feel that they are advanced tech. Yes I know they are mdc, but they have no rail systems or modular systems to adapt to soldiers need. Attaching a grenade launcher to a laser rifle should not require a whole new weapon but a under barrel mod to an existing one. The M203 is a modification that can be put on any M4/M16 rifle. (Basically it feels like it is just numbers and no real thought beyond that to make them feel advanced. No feel of progression from currant weapon and tech.)


I do not think it should be about bigger numbers but about features like target identification systems in the body armor to reduce friendly fire or Bio-monitoring system to deploy medical response. (Nano surgical intervention or tourniquet systems built in arms and legs of the armor.)-what would and advanced future tech use to reduce soldiers life.

[ShadowLogan]

None-TW Non-exoskeletal body armor has a max MDC of 120 MDC. (found in sot -cyberknights.)

This though is for human-size body armor, giant-size has a higher limit (and gnome/faeries have a smaller limit).

I don't know what that limit is off the top of my head, and it might change from book to book, but there are at least two examples of Giant Size Body Armor with 150MDC (old rules) that can be found in WB5 (Gargoyle) and WB6 (Megaversal Legion), and several additional giant size suits exist in various Rifts books (WB9, WB21 in a shop and Naruni Wave 2 have rules on handling this, WB6/30) never mind specific NPC one-off jobs or even a handful of power armor suits.

The only problem I see is they lack the feel that they are advanced tech. Yes I know they are mdc, but they have no rail systems or modular systems to adapt to soldiers need. Attaching a grenade launcher to a laser rifle should not require a whole new weapon but a under barrel mod to an existing one. The M203 is a modification that can be put on any M4/M16 rifle. (Basically it feels like it is just numbers and no real thought beyond that to make them feel advanced. No feel of progression from currant weapon and tech.)

While I can agree they lack modularity, we know that you can equip them with scopes/sights and bayonets as optional feature (Scopes I'm pretty sure on, bayonets might be specific examples only), among other things (lasers can get blue-green conversion kit, a flashlight kit). So, as a GM I wouldn't necessarily rule it out as an add-on feature (Wilk's flashlight addon in MercOps suggests you'd likely need additional mounting hardware) , but keep in mind that those integrated GLs usually come with multi round capacity payloads (3-12round) vs single-shot for the M203/M79 style which means you can fire more often before reloading (generally not-burst capable, but exceptions exist).

I don't know about you, but they certainly feel like advanced tech from certain POV, that doesn't mean from certain POV they don't feel "advanced" when it comes to features one might expect.

[Blue_Lion]

None-TW Non-exoskeletal body armor has a max MDC of 120 MDC. (found in sot -cyberknights.)

This though is for human-size body armor, giant-size has a higher limit (and gnome/faeries have a smaller limit).

I don't know what that limit is off the top of my head, and it might change from book to book, but there are at least two examples of Giant Size Body Armor with 150MDC (old rules) that can be found in WB5 (Gargoyle) and WB6 (Megaversal Legion), and several additional giant size suits exist in various Rifts books (WB9, WB21 in a shop and Naruni Wave 2 have rules on handling this, WB6/30) never mind specific NPC one-off jobs or even a handful of power armor suits.

It did not specify size in sot, was stated as a blanket rule there may be acceptations but we have a rule that the max mdc for non tw body armor is 120 MDC.

The reason the modern under barrel grenade launchers are single shot is do to size and weight. All(12 of the) modern under barrel grenade launchers shoot rounds around 40 MM in diameter. An internal or external magazine would render the weapon to heavy and bulky reducing the effectiveness of the weapon it is under. Attaching the Milkor MGL to a M-4 would have a weapon with close to 18 pounds before you add in any ammo. http://milkorusa.com/product/av-140-msgl/ Even shaving off some of the weight do to removal of the stock and other modifications you would still likely be more than 15 pounds empty. Placing it in the crew served category. Not something you want as your main individual weapon in urban combat. Over half that weight would be in the front of the weapon, making it extremely front heavy so shooting without support would be area suppression not accurate. So it would impair proper function of the M-4 as an individual weapon. To keep the M-4 effective they keep the multi round grenade launcher as a second carried weapon you transition to when needed.

In Rifts grenade launcher seam to have much smaller ammo(there is a grenade launcher laser pistol) so it should be fully possible to create a effective under barrel grenade launcher similar to under barrel shotguns, just like the integrated ones.

[taalismn]

[ Even shaving off some of the weight do to removal of the stock and other modifications you would still likely be more than 15 pounds empty. Placing it in the crew served category. Not something you want as your main individual weapon in urban combat. Over half that weight would be in the front of the weapon, making it extremely front heavy so shooting without support would be area suppression not accurate. So it would impair proper function of the M-4 as an individual weapon. To keep the M-4 effective they keep the multi round grenade launcher as a second carried weapon you transition to when needed..

"Bob, I'm frankly terrified that you carry an automatic grenade launcher as your standard weapon of choice, even if you are a Juicer."
"Hey, I don't believe in pulling my punches!"

[Blue_Lion]

[ Even shaving off some of the weight do to removal of the stock and other modifications you would still likely be more than 15 pounds empty. Placing it in the crew served category. Not something you want as your main individual weapon in urban combat. Over half that weight would be in the front of the weapon, making it extremely front heavy so shooting without support would be area suppression not accurate. So it would impair proper function of the M-4 as an individual weapon. To keep the M-4 effective they keep the multi round grenade launcher as a second carried weapon you transition to when needed..

"Bob, I'm frankly terrified that you carry an automatic grenade launcher as your standard weapon of choice, even if you are a Juicer."
"Hey, I don't believe in pulling my punches!"

Oh it is only 130 pounds for the wi-gl 120 better carry a back up.


The CP-50 can hold 12 grenades and is only 10 pounds.

So obviously they found lighter material than out 6 grenade launchers that have a higher weight that currently using.

[ShadowLogan]

It did not specify size in sot, was stated as a blanket rule there may be acceptations but we have a rule that the max mdc for non tw body armor is 120 MDC.

I think it is implied though in SOT4 that it is in reference to human-size suits and not giant/gnome-size especially given examples listed are only available in human size and the prevalence of examples that run counter to it:
- WB21 (pg34) clearly describes suits in the size categories (human, larger than human typical size, full-on giant), and the larger size categories clearly have listed more than 120 MDC, and nothing indicates the material is enchanted.
-DB8 (pg38), human size suit has 90MDC, but those in the larger than human add 50MDC for a total of 140MDC.
-WB5's Gargoyle Body Armor (pg205) and WB9 (pg115, sorry previous post said it was in WB6) has Megaversal Legion Mark II, both suits at 150 for giants.
-WB6 (pg136) Pogtalian Dragon Slayers make Dragon Skin Body Armor with 250+ MDC, and WB30 (pg158) goes even farther with more options none of which top out at 120MDC for giants (one suit has that as a minimum though).
-WB9 (pg54) has Pucara Red Giants (over20ft tall) with Stone Armor Suits, a full suit has 150MDC (the half suit has 90), this might count as "enchanted" though
-WB2 (pg138) lists Centaur Body Armor at 130, this clearly isn't human design (normal Barding in WB14 comes in at 90, but is much lighter and classified as "light" armor) so might be exempt.
-RUE,RMB, Bionic SB, technically Full Conversion Borg Body Armor might also count here given FCBs are larger than humans, and their body armor clearly exceeds 120MDC in the Main Body. As it is just "body armor" a case could be made they should be included, but I can also see not including them.

In Rifts grenade launcher seam to have much smaller ammo(there is a grenade launcher laser pistol) so it should be fully possible to create a effective under barrel grenade launcher similar to under barrel shotguns, just like the integrated ones.

I agree there is a potential size issue, the main sticking point I see is in general we don't have size statistics for the vast majority of Rifts weapons (unlike in 2E RT where just about every weapon has a size). The point remains though that these weapons do have a larger payload, for what ever reason.

[Blue_Lion]

nothing in the write up in sot 4 cyber knights implies it was limited to human sized it is a general statement about armor.

Acceptations to a rule do not disprove the rule.

[eliakon]

nothing in the write up in sot 4 cyber knights implies it was limited to human sized it is a general statement about armor.

Acceptations to a rule do not disprove the rule.

Going to have to agree with Blue here
If the rule says "Body armor has a max of 120 MDC"
And we then have a few exceptions to the rule published, that simply means... that we have some exceptions. Not that the rule does not exist nor that there are actually unprinted additional words in the rule that can be used to allow people to bypass the rule... just that there are, and can be exceptions.
So sure, if you want your new bigger suit of armor to be one of those exceptions, go for it. But just now that it is just that, an exception. Not the standard, an exception.

And it will be up until the rule in SoT4 is nulified.

[ShadowLogan]

nothing in the write up in sot 4 cyber knights implies it was limited to human sized it is a general statement about armor.

Acceptations to a rule do not disprove the rule.

First it is "exceptions" not "Acceptations".

I have to disagree about SoT4.
1st the section it is from is titled "Cyber-Knight Armor", and the vast majority of Cyber-Knight population is human-size (1% are Grackle Tooth, 5% are Other D-Bee). So at best we have 6% of the population, off hand I don't know what the percentage of D-Bees are that fit "giant/larger"-size is that can become CyberKnights meaning giants are likely an even smaller percentage of the population, and some beings don't wear armor for various reasons. As Grackle Tooth are an example of a giant D-Bee when it comes to armor it is known "Few wear any armor at all, but some will consider wearing partial M.D.C. armor for additional protection" (WB30 pg98). So a Cyber-Knight Grackle Tooth might not even wear body armor, or if they do only wear a partial suit (examples are full suits).

2nd the paragraph you refer to specifically starts out "All suits start with the basic framework of a standard type of body armor (see the Rifts RPG, pages 209-211), from Crusader to Urban Warrior to Bushman and even Triax and Coalition 'Dead Body' armors". All of these are human-size examples. AFAIK the CS and Triax don't produce giant-size suits, and the others are in a book that doesn't even consider "giants" for PCs (well aside from Dragons).

3rd it runs counter to numerous examples where giants have armor that offers better protection than "human-size" in Rifts that aren't enchanted. So yes Giants are exceptions to the rule, but given various contexts the statement is about human-size suits.

[Maddux]

Think you guys need to look at some of the skills can raise MDC on armor. But think if your building something if your not an Operator going to be hard.

[Blue_Lion]

Think you guys need to look at some of the skills can raise MDC on armor. But think if your building something if your not an Operator going to be hard.

First thing you need to look at is are you building/designing or modifying armor. That can have a significant impact on the scope of the project. (Operators/TW have a leg up because it kind of is there wheel house, but others can do it.)


Modifying or adding extra armor to a existing suit of body armor(without a skill created for it) I would allow the field armorer(based of vehicle armorer doing the same for vehicles) or mechanical engineer (even though it seams like it is more structural in nature just because no existing skill covers it)skill to be used.


Building armor then you enter a higher level problem. No existing skill really fits for body armor desighn. Advanced body armor in rifts like weapons is likly a multi-displine skill. (I created a skill for it, in my games.) I am not sure that advanced body(non natural) armor with no features would be covered by mechincal engineer, but that is the closes existing general skill. EBA cleary has electronic componets, and may even require computer programer for the built in computer. So you might be looking at three or more skills for designing body armor if you are limited to existing skills.