Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

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rem1093
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Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by rem1093 »

Was wondering if anybody has added tech to magic weapons and armor? For example, adding optics and a comm unit to magic armor or when our Magebane used her power to enchant weapons, on a plasma Partisan and then activated the plasma field stacking the damage. (this is her new favorite weapon).
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by slade2501 »

there is no reason you CAN"T use mundane equipment in combination with the magical. You can have for example, a suit of Warmonger power armor (real crap) converted its battery to magic power supply, and still use the standard optics in the helmet. The power is SUPPLIED MAGICALLY, not powered directly by magic. A Ley Line Generator supplies perfectly normal power/electricity made from magic.

In another example, you can put a perfectly normal, battery powered scope on a TW rifle. it will work just fine.

As for the magebane enchanting a weapon, I would argue that it states only SDC weapons can become enchanted into MD weapons. one or two, SDC melee weapons. this power cannot be used on an already MD weapon. The rules also state that NO ENERGY weapons can be empowered, and I would rule that a plasma melee weapon is an ENERGY weapon.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by eliakon »

I mix and match magic and tech all the time myself. I play a lot of magic using characters and they are fond of their magic (obviously) but they will use technology when it suits them as well. My non-mages as well will use magic if they can and it does something they desire. A TW scope on a sniper rifle can be very handy, as can a technological scope on a TW rifle. Regular body armor is routinely enchanted with a lifeward. A previous character liked to load shotgun shells with "scarlet pepper" crystals, and was infamous for making an aerosol grenade out of some fairie cordial... stuff like that.
Most of the time my answer is "use the best of what ever you can and mix and match what you have handy to get the best results possible"
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by rem1093 »

slade2501 wrote:As for the magebane enchanting a weapon, I would argue that it states only SDC weapons can become enchanted into MD weapons. one or two, SDC melee weapons. this power cannot be used on an already MD weapon. The rules also state that NO ENERGY weapons can be empowered, and I would rule that a plasma melee weapon is an ENERGY weapon.


If you look at both the Plasma and Vibro weapons they do blunt damage when not powered up, that is what she enchanted. (As a side, the Blunt damage never made sense, so we got rid of the blunt part.)

eliakon wrote:I mix and match magic and tech all the time myself. I play a lot of magic using characters and they are fond of their magic (obviously) but they will use technology when it suits them as well. My non-mages as well will use magic if they can and it does something they desire. A TW scope on a sniper rifle can be very handy, as can a technological scope on a TW rifle. Regular body armor is routinely enchanted with a lifeward. A previous character liked to load shotgun shells with "scarlet pepper" crystals, and was infamous for making an aerosol grenade out of some fairie cordial... stuff like that.
Most of the time my answer is "use the best of what ever you can and mix and match what you have handy to get the best results possible"


Its just that I haven't seen anything as integrated as say, making the Kuznya Dragon armor into a fully environmental tech laden suit.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by taalismn »

That fireball thrower on that fancy TW flier you just purchased lacking in umps? Hey, mount a .50 cal machine gun with ramjet bullets on it!

Water system on your camper tasting funny? How about putting some water purification or Cleanse potion in the system.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by slade2501 »

taalismn wrote:That fireball thrower on that fancy TW flier you just purchased lacking in umps? Hey, mount a .50 cal machine gun with ramjet bullets on it!

Water system on your camper tasting funny? How about putting some water purification or Cleanse potion in the system.



turn a coffee maker into a TW desalination or hard water treatment plant. good idea.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by taalismn »

slade2501 wrote:[
turn a coffee maker into a TW desalination or hard water treatment plant. good idea.


"But I was FOND of those calcium deposits. Accretion was the only thing holding that coffee pot together..." :-(
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rem1093
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by rem1093 »

taalismn wrote:That fireball thrower on that fancy TW flier you just purchased lacking in umps? Hey, mount a .50 cal machine gun with ramjet bullets on it!

Water system on your camper tasting funny? How about putting some water purification or Cleanse potion in the system.


I know that can easily be done. Thats just swapping out one weapon for another. What I'm talking about is true integration of the two in a way that the user doesn't use ISP or PPE. Something like making a magic blade but before you add the Hilt, you hand it over to an engineer to add in a vibro, or plasma Field, stacking the damage, or having it do double damage to the supernatural. Or as one of our players now want to do and have a Mystic Kuznya build the armor/shell of his new robot body.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

rem1093 wrote:
taalismn wrote:That fireball thrower on that fancy TW flier you just purchased lacking in umps? Hey, mount a .50 cal machine gun with ramjet bullets on it!

Water system on your camper tasting funny? How about putting some water purification or Cleanse potion in the system.


I know that can easily be done. Thats just swapping out one weapon for another. What I'm talking about is true integration of the two in a way that the user doesn't use ISP or PPE. Something like making a magic blade but before you add the Hilt, you hand it over to an engineer to add in a vibro, or plasma Field, stacking the damage, or having it do double damage to the supernatural. Or as one of our players now want to do and have a Mystic Kuznya build the armor/shell of his new robot body.

Trying to stack tech and magic damage is something many would see as munchkin.(pure magic normally does better in melee weapons than tech.) The only true integration of tech and magic on the books is TW. There are TW PA t hat have their own storage of PPE to activate.

In my house rules I have a what I call pasive TW. Basically a magical affect that is always active. Things like a magical affect that changes the type of energy a weapon shoots while keeping the damage same. Or incorporating a see invisible talisman spell affect into a sensor system. But I know of no cannon examples of it.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Shark_Force »

a sword is technology. an enchantment is magic.

enchanted sword = combining tech and magic, and is not techno-wizardry. there you go.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Shark_Force wrote:a sword is technology. an enchantment is magic.

enchanted sword = combining tech and magic, and is not techno-wizardry. there you go.


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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by rem1093 »

Shark_Force wrote:a sword is technology. an enchantment is magic.

enchanted sword = combining tech and magic, and is not techno-wizardry. there you go.

I'm talking modern/future tech, not ancient tech.

Blue_Lion wrote:Trying to stack tech and magic damage is something many would see as munchkin.(pure magic normally does better in melee weapons than tech.) .

I don't see that. How is Ok mix magic with magic, but not magic and tech? For example take a blade enchant it so it does X (bonus to supernatural, change from SDC to MDC, ext), then add flaming blade enchantment witch does Y damage, its OK to have XY combined. But if you change the Y to a Tech Vibro, or plasma blade, you are saying that its now munchkin? Considering that the damage from Y would be the same whether magic or tech, it shouldn't be.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

rem1093 wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:a sword is technology. an enchantment is magic.

enchanted sword = combining tech and magic, and is not techno-wizardry. there you go.

I'm talking modern/future tech, not ancient tech.

Blue_Lion wrote:Trying to stack tech and magic damage is something many would see as munchkin.(pure magic normally does better in melee weapons than tech.) .

I don't see that. How is Ok mix magic with magic, but not magic and tech? For example take a blade enchant it so it does X (bonus to supernatural, change from SDC to MDC, ext), then add flaming blade enchantment witch does Y damage, its OK to have XY combined. But if you change the Y to a Tech Vibro, or plasma blade, you are saying that its now munchkin? Considering that the damage from Y would be the same whether magic or tech, it shouldn't be.


Where does it say you can do that? most spells that enchant weapons do not work on magic weapons.


What you proposed was basically adding vibro blade damage to a ruin blade.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Shark_Force »

rem1093 wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:a sword is technology. an enchantment is magic.

enchanted sword = combining tech and magic, and is not techno-wizardry. there you go.

I'm talking modern/future tech, not ancient tech.


fine. enchant some bullets. those are "modern" tech.

(though frankly, we still make use of a number of "ancient" technological devices right now, making me question what exactly it is that makes them "not modern". i mean, i don't know about you, but when it comes time to cut my steak, i'm not using a laser or a chainsaw, i use a knife. when it comes time to move things around, i am far more likely to use wheels than i am to use anti-gravity or hover technology. i make use of levers, inclined planes, pulleys, wedges, and all manner of other simple tools quite frequently).
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by eliakon »

One of the reasons you don't see this sort of stacking in the books is that in the books everytime magic and tech get used together the result is ALWAYS TW... and TW has radically changed since the first introduction.
It no longer is anything remotely like a rare, new form of magic. Instead it is millions of years old and is now, like diabolisim, pretty much a precursor to Rune Magic and is more or less the go-to for any form of magic that 'breaks the rules' or involves tech in any way, shape or form.

This means that combining tech and magic with OUT involving TW is, by necessity done at the game level.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by rem1093 »

Blue_Lion wrote:
rem1093 wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:a sword is technology. an enchantment is magic.

enchanted sword = combining tech and magic, and is not techno-wizardry. there you go.

I'm talking modern/future tech, not ancient tech.

Blue_Lion wrote:Trying to stack tech and magic damage is something many would see as munchkin.(pure magic normally does better in melee weapons than tech.) .

I don't see that. How is Ok mix magic with magic, but not magic and tech? For example take a blade enchant it so it does X (bonus to supernatural, change from SDC to MDC, ext), then add flaming blade enchantment witch does Y damage, its OK to have XY combined. But if you change the Y to a Tech Vibro, or plasma blade, you are saying that its now munchkin? Considering that the damage from Y would be the same whether magic or tech, it shouldn't be.


Where does it say you can do that? most spells that enchant weapons do not work on magic weapons.


What you proposed was basically adding vibro blade damage to a ruin blade.


Its in Mystic Russia, page 124 under Flaming weapon. it says "Adds 3D6 to weapons usual damage capacity." So if the weapon did 3D6, it would do 6D6, when the Flame is activated.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

rem1093 wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
rem1093 wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:a sword is technology. an enchantment is magic.

enchanted sword = combining tech and magic, and is not techno-wizardry. there you go.

I'm talking modern/future tech, not ancient tech.

Blue_Lion wrote:Trying to stack tech and magic damage is something many would see as munchkin.(pure magic normally does better in melee weapons than tech.) .

I don't see that. How is Ok mix magic with magic, but not magic and tech? For example take a blade enchant it so it does X (bonus to supernatural, change from SDC to MDC, ext), then add flaming blade enchantment witch does Y damage, its OK to have XY combined. But if you change the Y to a Tech Vibro, or plasma blade, you are saying that its now munchkin? Considering that the damage from Y would be the same whether magic or tech, it shouldn't be.


Where does it say you can do that? most spells that enchant weapons do not work on magic weapons.


What you proposed was basically adding vibro blade damage to a ruin blade.


Its in Mystic Russia, page 124 under Flaming weapon. it says "Adds 3D6 to weapons usual damage capacity." So if the weapon did 3D6, it would do 6D6, when the Flame is activated.

You are referring to a OCC specific ability to imbue up to four powers into a weapon? That is a special case just like TW.

They can imbue 4 powers into 1 enchanted weapon. That is special case. It is one enchanted item with multiple features. It is not truely diffrent magic being stacked. ONce the enchanting OCC enchants it then it would be unlikly for any other enchantments to be placed on it. A rune weapon can only have the features available to a ruin weapon, the enchanted weapon from that OCC can only have the powers available to its enchanted weapons. You can not add the Kunza enchant on a rune weapon. It has to be one type of magic.

(Basically it is built by the rules with set features having those features is ok, because it is one type of magic. combining the features of different types of enchanted weapons in one would be called munchkin. As would adding high tech damage to a magic weapon.)


But only TW can combine magic and high technology in one device. It is a class special feature to combine the twin arts.

As I said they way you are presenting what you want it sounds like munchkin attempt. I want to add vibro blade damage to magic weapons sounds like I want to add vibro blade damage to my sword of Atlantis or battle fury blade.


If something says it can stack on X it can stack on X. If it does not say it can stack on X it can't stack on X.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by rem1093 »

eliakon wrote:One of the reasons you don't see this sort of stacking in the books is that in the books everytime magic and tech get used together the result is ALWAYS TW... and TW has radically changed since the first introduction.
It no longer is anything remotely like a rare, new form of magic. Instead it is millions of years old and is now, like diabolisim, pretty much a precursor to Rune Magic and is more or less the go-to for any form of magic that 'breaks the rules' or involves tech in any way, shape or form.

This means that combining tech and magic with OUT involving TW is, by necessity done at the game level.


But that doesn't mean that there isn't or can't be other methods of combining the two. For instance, adding the systems/tech of a modern (by Rifts standards) body armor, to say a Kuznya made armor. Is not TW, but still mixes the tech and magic. It seams that TW adds the magic directly to whats is being made. What I'm talking about is taking about is to take something that has already has bin enchanted and then adding the tech.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

rem1093 wrote:
eliakon wrote:One of the reasons you don't see this sort of stacking in the books is that in the books everytime magic and tech get used together the result is ALWAYS TW... and TW has radically changed since the first introduction.
It no longer is anything remotely like a rare, new form of magic. Instead it is millions of years old and is now, like diabolisim, pretty much a precursor to Rune Magic and is more or less the go-to for any form of magic that 'breaks the rules' or involves tech in any way, shape or form.

This means that combining tech and magic with OUT involving TW is, by necessity done at the game level.


But that doesn't mean that there isn't or can't be other methods of combining the two. For instance, adding the systems/tech of a modern (by Rifts standards) body armor, to say a Kuznya made armor. Is not TW, but still mixes the tech and magic. It seams that TW adds the magic directly to whats is being made. What I'm talking about is taking about is to take something that has already has bin enchanted and then adding the tech.

That Adding optics or gass filtration system as a independent subsystem inside the armor is one thing adding a second high tech MDC plating in a Kuznya made armor for extra MDC, or adding a difrent type of enchantment is something different.
-In my opinion-
Subsystems would likely be able to be adding it as a independent unit inside the larger unit. That would be fairly easy, though some things might not be allowed because of rules or perceived game balance.

Combing two difrent types of main systems would be munchkin.

The main system can be specefic type of magic, TW(enchanted high tech and only way to do it) or high tech it can not be a combination of the two.
Damage is a main system, as is the primary source of MDC. You can not combine a enchant with tech or TW. You can not combine vibro blade with a rune weapon. That would be munchkin.

Typically the only way to enchant high tech is TW.
On the flip side I do not allow TW to be added to magic weapons and armor. Because they did not start in the high tech catagory.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by rem1093 »

Blue_Lion wrote:
rem1093 wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
rem1093 wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:a sword is technology. an enchantment is magic.

enchanted sword = combining tech and magic, and is not techno-wizardry. there you go.

I'm talking modern/future tech, not ancient tech.

Blue_Lion wrote:Trying to stack tech and magic damage is something many would see as munchkin.(pure magic normally does better in melee weapons than tech.) .

I don't see that. How is Ok mix magic with magic, but not magic and tech? For example take a blade enchant it so it does X (bonus to supernatural, change from SDC to MDC, ext), then add flaming blade enchantment witch does Y damage, its OK to have XY combined. But if you change the Y to a Tech Vibro, or plasma blade, you are saying that its now munchkin? Considering that the damage from Y would be the same whether magic or tech, it shouldn't be.


Where does it say you can do that? most spells that enchant weapons do not work on magic weapons.


What you proposed was basically adding vibro blade damage to a ruin blade.


Its in Mystic Russia, page 124 under Flaming weapon. it says "Adds 3D6 to weapons usual damage capacity." So if the weapon did 3D6, it would do 6D6, when the Flame is activated.

You are referring to a OCC specific ability to imbue up to four powers into a weapon? That is a special case just like TW.

They can imbue 4 powers into 1 enchanted weapon. That is special case. It is one enchanted item with multiple features. It is not truely diffrent magic being stacked. ONce the enchanting OCC enchants it then it would be unlikly for any other enchantments to be placed on it. A rune weapon can only have the features available to a ruin weapon, the enchanted weapon from that OCC can only have the powers available to its enchanted weapons. You can not add the Kunza enchant on a rune weapon. It has to be one type of magic.

(Basically it is built by the rules with set features having those features is ok, because it is one type of magic. combining the features of different types of enchanted weapons in one would be called munchkin. As would adding high tech damage to a magic weapon.)


But only TW can combine magic and high technology in one device. It is a class special feature to combine the twin arts.

As I said they way you are presenting what you want it sounds like munchkin attempt. I want to add vibro blade damage to magic weapons sounds like I want to add vibro blade damage to my sword of Atlantis or battle fury blade.


If something says it can stack on X it can stack on X. If it does not say it can stack on X it can't stack on X.


But you cant do the with a rune weapon? First off, (if you go by the Japan book and how they make the swords) rune weapons get their power from the souls after its made. So you can't take them apart to add the tech.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

rem1093 wrote: But you cant do the with a rune weapon? First off, (if you go by the Japan book and how they make the swords) rune weapons get their power from the souls after its made. So you can't take them apart to add the tech.

Do not all magic weapons get their powers when they are enchanted after they are made?

If you can't take apart a ruin blade to add tech how could you take apart a magic sword? If you can a magic sword why not a ruin blade?

I know nothing in the rules that allow such a thing.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by guardiandashi »

in our campaigns we sometimes mix tech and magic but its usually in ways that most people either wouldn't think of or consider munchkin /broken.

examples.
I had a character that made an "ultra tech" bow, to start with the bow concept wasn't all that impressive, it was a standard compound bow. the complications set in when my character decided to make it a "strength" bow, IE it took her full strength to draw it. this was a character with a ~60+ supernatural strength. If I remember right the bow ended up with a 3 ton draw strength. the ultra tech part was in the materials, the "arms" of the bow were monomolecular "spring" material the bow string was braided diamond monofilament "wire" and the arrows were steel shafts with depleted uranium "heads" there may have been spells for accuracy, but I know for certain that the arrows had a "recall" spell on them that returned them to the quiver.

another magic item the same character had was a permently enchanted clip that had a spell effect that was essentially a decanter of endless water, or melphs plentiful potion (from D&D ) on it, this meant that the clip would never run out of bullets while installed in a gun. Neruni plasma cartridge pistol with unlimited shots and not having to spend 40? credits every time you pull the trigger.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by rem1093 »

Blue_Lion wrote:
rem1093 wrote: But you cant do the with a rune weapon? First off, (if you go by the Japan book and how they make the swords) rune weapons get their power from the souls after its made. So you can't take them apart to add the tech.

Do not all magic weapons get their powers when they are enchanted after they are made?

If you can't take apart a ruin blade to add tech how could you take apart a magic sword? If you can a magic sword why not a ruin blade?

I know nothing in the rules that allow such a thing.


I'm not talking about taking buying and then taking apart an enchanted weapon. I'm taking about having the enchanter, enchant the Blade from tip to the end of the tang, or the head of an axe or hammer. Then the tech parts are added just any other tech based melee weapon. Think of how Stormbraker was made in the last Avengers movie, were just the head of the axe that was enchanted.
Another way to look at it if you are building a log cabin and you get the local earth elemental to cast Ironwood on all the lumber that you are going to use. When the house is done the only thing that is enchanted is the wood. the pluming, electrical, windows are all mundane. Does that still mean that the hole house is enchanted, or TW, I don't think that it is. Just because the wood, blade, armor, ext, is enchanted doesn't automatically mean that you cant fun electricity though the walls, add comms and optics to an armor, a vibro or plasma field, or mix it up any other way.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

rem1093 wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
rem1093 wrote: But you cant do the with a rune weapon? First off, (if you go by the Japan book and how they make the swords) rune weapons get their power from the souls after its made. So you can't take them apart to add the tech.

Do not all magic weapons get their powers when they are enchanted after they are made?

If you can't take apart a ruin blade to add tech how could you take apart a magic sword? If you can a magic sword why not a ruin blade?

I know nothing in the rules that allow such a thing.


I'm not talking about taking buying and then taking apart an enchanted weapon. I'm taking about having the enchanter, enchant the Blade from tip to the end of the tang, or the head of an axe or hammer. Then the tech parts are added just any other tech based melee weapon. Think of how Stormbraker was made in the last Avengers movie, were just the head of the axe that was enchanted.
Another way to look at it if you are building a log cabin and you get the local earth elemental to cast Ironwood on all the lumber that you are going to use. When the house is done the only thing that is enchanted is the wood. the pluming, electrical, windows are all mundane. Does that still mean that the hole house is enchanted, or TW, I don't think that it is. Just because the wood, blade, armor, ext, is enchanted doesn't automatically mean that you cant fun electricity though the walls, add comms and optics to an armor, a vibro or plasma field, or mix it up any other way.

Tenically speaking only TW is by the rules combining tech and magic, and what you are describing is beyond any TW on the books. Also I know of no enchanting of incomplete weapons. By the books adding plasma to magic weapons.

What you are talking about is way in the muchkin field.
You are basically asking to have the splogorth make a sword of atlantis without a hilt then make a hilt to add damage. That is pure munchkin.

Let me be clear by the rules there is no way to add high tech damage to normal enchanted weapons and only TWs can combine tech and magic unless we are told other wise.

And in your house example you do not run electricity through wood. So it is not possible to be ran through the walls, It can be ran through wires but not the magic wood.

Given issues with magic and man made material and that combining tech and magic like a TW is special attaching high tech device as part of and enchagnted weapon may cause the enchantment to fail.

What you are describing is more powerful than the TW combination of magic and tech. If it was possible to do that would it not be the basics of TW mellee weapons?
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Eagle »

The problem is that techno-wizardry has changed since it was first introduced, and now it is so widespread that it has really lost its meaning. It's just another term for "magic items" now. I'm not even sure what the rules are for it anymore, or who can use it.

Thematically, techno-wizardry probably should be some kind of crazy Doc Brown inventions. It could have a steampunk twist, or maybe a 1930s "Rocketeer" or mad scientist look to it. But ultimately the thing should look like it works, until an engineer takes it apart and says "hey this isn't real science". That's my personal opinion on it, anyway. But I don't think they had the concept tightly defined enough before making more books, and the concept drifted considerably.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by eliakon »

rem1093 wrote:
eliakon wrote:One of the reasons you don't see this sort of stacking in the books is that in the books everytime magic and tech get used together the result is ALWAYS TW... and TW has radically changed since the first introduction.
It no longer is anything remotely like a rare, new form of magic. Instead it is millions of years old and is now, like diabolisim, pretty much a precursor to Rune Magic and is more or less the go-to for any form of magic that 'breaks the rules' or involves tech in any way, shape or form.

This means that combining tech and magic with OUT involving TW is, by necessity done at the game level.


But that doesn't mean that there isn't or can't be other methods of combining the two. For instance, adding the systems/tech of a modern (by Rifts standards) body armor, to say a Kuznya made armor. Is not TW, but still mixes the tech and magic. It seams that TW adds the magic directly to whats is being made. What I'm talking about is taking about is to take something that has already has bin enchanted and then adding the tech.

That is exactly what I just said. :lol:
No seriously.
There is no way to do it officially, because any and all official combination of magic and tech whatsoever will be TW. Period, dot end of sentence.
That is just how the canon is.
BUT any gaming group can sit down and make up their own combinations and not call them TW... and presto, they have combinations that are not TW!

If your group wants to enchant the blades on a vibro-knife... hey more power (literally) to you, go right ahead and do that.
If you want to put a scope on your magic wand to make aiming easier, hey Rule Zero away.
Your group can do anything they agree that they want to... that is how the game works after all.
BUT what ever you end up doing will have to be house rules, simply because there are no official rules for it and any such combinations in canon are considered TW.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Eagle wrote:The problem is that techno-wizardry has changed since it was first introduced, and now it is so widespread that it has really lost its meaning. It's just another term for "magic items" now. I'm not even sure what the rules are for it anymore, or who can use it.

Thematically, techno-wizardry probably should be some kind of crazy Doc Brown inventions. It could have a steampunk twist, or maybe a 1930s "Rocketeer" or mad scientist look to it. But ultimately the thing should look like it works, until an engineer takes it apart and says "hey this isn't real science". That's my personal opinion on it, anyway. But I don't think they had the concept tightly defined enough before making more books, and the concept drifted considerably.

TW meaning is a combination of technology and magic. You want to combine magic and technology and it not be TW. How they go about it may have changed but that is what it has always been. The rules for creating it in game are listed in RUE. Who can use it is also defined in the rules in BoM and RUE, modified by rules in new west and Anzo to allow people that practiced since childhood to retain the ability to use it. (not sure how you are confused at who can use it.)
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

rem1093 wrote:Was wondering if anybody has added tech to magic weapons and armor? For example, adding optics and a comm unit to magic armor or when our Magebane used her power to enchant weapons, on a plasma Partisan and then activated the plasma field stacking the damage. (this is her new favorite weapon).


Sure, we used to do that all the time back when I had a regular group.
Take magic armor from the Palladium World, bring it to a shop in Rifts Earth, and shell out a lot of cash for them to make it fully environmental, for example. It was cheaper to do things the other way, though, to take some EBA to a Palladium alchemist, and just have them enchant the whole suit. That way it's all self-repairing (with the right enchantment).
(In a pinch, sometimes we'd have magic medieval plate or leather armor, but also be wearing a Multi-Optic Helmet instead of the normal headgear.)

Likewise, we liked the +3 to Strike bonus from laser targeting systems, so we'd add that to most guns, including TW guns.
And there's nothing wrong with a tactical flashlight mounted under the nose of a TW gun either.

We sailed around in a magic longboat we grabbed from Palladium World, and we mounted railguns and missile turrets on it.

Unless somebody is playing a character who thinks that tech and magic are best kept apart (or that one of those shouldn't exist at all), there's no real reason NOT to mix stuff up in whatever ways work.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:[If your group wants to enchant the blades on a vibro-knife... hey more power (literally) to you, go right ahead and do that.
If you want to put a scope on your magic wand to make aiming easier, hey Rule Zero away.
Your group can do anything they agree that they want to... that is how the game works after all.
BUT what ever you end up doing will have to be house rules, simply because there are no official rules for it and any such combinations in canon are considered TW.


Uh... no.
The rules state that Palladium Alchemists can enchant weapons. There are no rules saying that they cannot enchant vibro-blades or other tech weapons, so those are technically fair game.
A GM would have to house-rule in order for alchemists to NOT be able to enchant them.
And no... a vibro-knife with an alchemist enchantment on it is NOT techno-wizardry. Techno-wizardry is a specific thing, and that's not it.

Same deal with putting a scope on a magic wand. As long as the wand is capable of making Aimed Shots, any scope or whatever that adds to Aimed Shots would add to the wand according to the rules.
And putting a scope on a magic wand is NOT techno-wizardry. It's just a scope on a magic wand. The wand itself might be techno-wizardry, but the scope on the wand wouldn't be, and adding the scope to a wand wouldn't be. And if it's not a TW wand to begin with, then there's nothing TW about the combination of the two.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by eliakon »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:[If your group wants to enchant the blades on a vibro-knife... hey more power (literally) to you, go right ahead and do that.
If you want to put a scope on your magic wand to make aiming easier, hey Rule Zero away.
Your group can do anything they agree that they want to... that is how the game works after all.
BUT what ever you end up doing will have to be house rules, simply because there are no official rules for it and any such combinations in canon are considered TW.


Uh... no.
The rules state that Palladium Alchemists can enchant weapons. There are no rules saying that they cannot enchant vibro-blades or other tech weapons, so those are technically fair game.
A GM would have to house-rule in order for alchemists to NOT be able to enchant them.
And no... a vibro-knife with an alchemist enchantment on it is NOT techno-wizardry. Techno-wizardry is a specific thing, and that's not it.

Since those are two separate games combining them would be... wait for it... a house rule :lol:
It would also require the GM to make a ruling on if the enchantment is even possible! Since we already know that some weapons are *not* enchanted (officially) with weapon spells (hello Mr. Shield I was just talking about you)
Now how your particular game works is great... but I was speaking about canon here not house rules, fanon, and headcanon.


Killer Cyborg wrote:Same deal with putting a scope on a magic wand. As long as the wand is capable of making Aimed Shots, any scope or whatever that adds to Aimed Shots would add to the wand according to the rules.
And putting a scope on a magic wand is NOT techno-wizardry. It's just a scope on a magic wand. The wand itself might be techno-wizardry, but the scope on the wand wouldn't be, and adding the scope to a wand wouldn't be. And if it's not a TW wand to begin with, then there's nothing TW about the combination of the two.

The problem that a LOT of you people keep ignoring is that I am NOT talking about what the logical thing is. I am saying what the bloody canon is. I will try it again though...
Right now THERE ARE NO OFFICIAL COMBINATIONS OF TECHNOLOGY AND MAGIC IN THE RIFTS ROLE PLAYING GAME THAT ARE NOT CLASSED AS TECHNO-WIZARDRY.
None, zero, nada, zip, zilch, the total number is between zero and none.
Am I clear here? Or do I need to go on?

NOW that doesn't prevent any group from doing what ever they please true...
...but in the OFFICAL PUBLISHED MATERIAL. All magic+tech is referred to as TW. Even when it *isn't* really TW (hello Skor Blades, I'm looking at you). Yes, even that one. Yep that one too. ALL of it! (if someone can provide a Rifts Game canon black swan that shows otherwise I would be happy to totally retract this statement...but in all my searching I have yet to find it.)
Thus the reason that I was saying that one can not find examples of Magic+Tech in the books that is not TW. Because there isnt any!
That is why ALL exemplars of this require a group to go and do something on their own.

Is this clear now?
I am NOT trying to say that is how you have to play I am simply stating the simple fact that every example of Tech+Magic I have ever found in any Rifts Game Book has been called "Techno-Wizardry" (other games mileage may vary... but this is about the RIFTS RPG, and not the other Game Lines so...)
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

DB 15 pg 140 "Crystal Energy Weapons" wrote:Specific crystals were used along with technological weapons to form a hybrid of technology and magic. This is not true Techno-Wizardry. The results are weapons that are magic based and can fire a variety of different types of energy.
Wormwood Blood Stones are another example, in that mounting a Battle Stone on a laser rifle in no way requires a TW. Permanent Line Magic can also be incorporated into high tech items, e.g. a Healing Pattern woven into the padding of a pilot's compartment.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:[If your group wants to enchant the blades on a vibro-knife... hey more power (literally) to you, go right ahead and do that.
If you want to put a scope on your magic wand to make aiming easier, hey Rule Zero away.
Your group can do anything they agree that they want to... that is how the game works after all.
BUT what ever you end up doing will have to be house rules, simply because there are no official rules for it and any such combinations in canon are considered TW.


Uh... no.
The rules state that Palladium Alchemists can enchant weapons. There are no rules saying that they cannot enchant vibro-blades or other tech weapons, so those are technically fair game.
A GM would have to house-rule in order for alchemists to NOT be able to enchant them.
And no... a vibro-knife with an alchemist enchantment on it is NOT techno-wizardry. Techno-wizardry is a specific thing, and that's not it.

Since those are two separate games combining them would be... wait for it... a house rule :lol:


I guess you've never heard of the Rifts Conversion Book...?
:?

It would also require the GM to make a ruling on if the enchantment is even possible!


Nope.
There would need to be a specific rule restricting Alchemist enchantments to only certain kinds of technology, and there isn't one.

Since we already know that some weapons are *not* enchanted (officially) with weapon spells (hello Mr. Shield I was just talking about you)


Where's it say that shields can't be enchanted as weapons...?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Same deal with putting a scope on a magic wand. As long as the wand is capable of making Aimed Shots, any scope or whatever that adds to Aimed Shots would add to the wand according to the rules.
And putting a scope on a magic wand is NOT techno-wizardry. It's just a scope on a magic wand. The wand itself might be techno-wizardry, but the scope on the wand wouldn't be, and adding the scope to a wand wouldn't be. And if it's not a TW wand to begin with, then there's nothing TW about the combination of the two.


The problem that a LOT of you people keep ignoring is that I am NOT talking about what the logical thing is. I am saying what the bloody canon is.


No, you're not.
You're making stuff up and claiming it as canon.

I will try it again though...
Right now THERE ARE NO OFFICIAL COMBINATIONS OF TECHNOLOGY AND MAGIC IN THE RIFTS ROLE PLAYING GAME THAT ARE NOT CLASSED AS TECHNO-WIZARDRY.
None, zero, nada, zip, zilch, the total number is between zero and none.
Am I clear here? Or do I need to go on?


You're being clear, but you don't seem to understand that "there are no official combinations of technology and magic in the Rifts RPG that are not classed as Techno-Wizardry" is a) an unsupported claim, and b) NOT anywhere the same thing as "there is a rule banning any combinations of tech and magic that are not techno-Wizardry" or "It is stated that any combinations of technology and magic become Techno-Wizardry for some reason."

If you cast Enchant Weapon: Minor on bayonet, it's a magical bayonet. You stick it in a rifle, you have a combination of magic and technology.
There is zilch to indicate that it would become a TW weapon, and since techno-wizardry is a specific thing--and this would NOT be that thing--there's quite a lot of evidence that it wouldn't be.
Likewise you could take a Millenium Tree Wand, add a laser site to it, and have... well, something. You might just have something that doesn't give you bonuses, but is can be used to play with cats. You might not.
But you wouldn't have Techno-Wizardry, not according to canon.

Flip open BoM to page 263.
Note that there's a Bio-Wizard Faerie weapon called "Dark Lightning," and that it's a pistol.
If you can't come up with any rules preventing somebody from putting a laser site on that pistol, then guess what?
People can mix tech and magic in that way.
Just like they can mix it in a zillion other ways that are allowed by canon.

Heck, just having a MAGIC GUN is tech+magic in its own right.

NOW that doesn't prevent any group from doing what ever they please true...
...but in the OFFICAL PUBLISHED MATERIAL. All magic+tech is referred to as TW. Even when it *isn't* really TW (hello Skor Blades, I'm looking at you). Yes, even that one. Yep that one too. ALL of it! (if someone can provide a Rifts Game canon black swan that shows otherwise I would be happy to totally retract this statement...but in all my searching I have yet to find it.)
Thus the reason that I was saying that one can not find examples of Magic+Tech in the books that is not TW. Because there isnt any!


I don't really agree with that.
There are the magic bio-wizardry guns as mentioned above.
Then there's stuff like the Overlord Power Armor (BoM 273), where the actual classification is unclear--it seems to be its own thing, listed between Rune Statues and Magical Restraints--but it doesn't seem to be Techno-Wizardry.
At the least, a GM would have to make a house call/interpretation to declare it as a TW item.
It's described as "magic environmental armor."
It's mentioned that "with some Techno-Wizard modifications, other giant humanoids may be able to use the armor at least as body armor (not likely to be able to access the magic powers)."
It's mentioned that Splugorthian Alchemists can repair the MDC.
Since techno-wizards can only modify it in such a way that the spells can't be used by a new wearer, and only Alchemists can repair the armor, it sounds like an Alchemist item to me.

Flipping through the BoM a bit, there are a number of Bio-Wizad tech/magic guns (p. 256) as well.
And this is just one book, albeit a compilation of a lot of other books, but it doesn't cover everything in Rifts.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by shadrak »

Mixing magic and tech can be seen in the early pictures on Rifts products...

The classic ley line walker regularly wore a rebreather/filter mask even though he was also wearing robes that were more "classically" mystic in nature.

So long as you are piecemealing independent systems together, I don't see a real problem. It is when you create a totally integrated system that it becomes complicated.

What I have had as an NPC in the past was this set up:

Original SAMAS suit with a talisman of armor of ithan affixed with its own PPE battery as well as wielding a permanently enchanted magic sword.

I have also had TW weapons mounted on vehicles like Big Boss ATVs...I think that is kind of the point of PPE clips.

As mentioned previously, it might also make sense to hook a TW electrical generator/engine into a standard tech vehicle.
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by shadrak »

Also, the Eye of Eylor can be mounted onto tech weapons to provide a permanent power supply per Atlantis...

I don't recommend it because it doesn't make sense and can become munchkin (SA2 Sooper Dooper Plasma Rifle + Eye of Eylor = weapon of the gods)
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Re: Mixing magic and tech. and no not techno-wizard.

Unread post by rem1093 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
rem1093 wrote:Was wondering if anybody has added tech to magic weapons and armor? For example, adding optics and a comm unit to magic armor or when our Magebane used her power to enchant weapons, on a plasma Partisan and then activated the plasma field stacking the damage. (this is her new favorite weapon).


Sure, we used to do that all the time back when I had a regular group.
Take magic armor from the Palladium World, bring it to a shop in Rifts Earth, and shell out a lot of cash for them to make it fully environmental, for example. It was cheaper to do things the other way, though, to take some EBA to a Palladium alchemist, and just have them enchant the whole suit. That way it's all self-repairing (with the right enchantment).
(In a pinch, sometimes we'd have magic medieval plate or leather armor, but also be wearing a Multi-Optic Helmet instead of the normal headgear.)

Likewise, we liked the +3 to Strike bonus from laser targeting systems, so we'd add that to most guns, including TW guns.
And there's nothing wrong with a tactical flashlight mounted under the nose of a TW gun either.

We sailed around in a magic longboat we grabbed from Palladium World, and we mounted railguns and missile turrets on it.

Unless somebody is playing a character who thinks that tech and magic are best kept apart (or that one of those shouldn't exist at all), there's no real reason NOT to mix stuff up in whatever ways work.

I forgot about the Alchenmist, Was mostly looking at the Kuznya, and that one of our players is a Magebane. By the way the Magebanes enchantments says nothing about Tech but does say that it can't be used on anything that already has magic.

shadrak wrote:Mixing magic and tech can be seen in the early pictures on Rifts products...

The classic ley line walker regularly wore a rebreather/filter mask even though he was also wearing robes that were more "classically" mystic in nature.

So long as you are piecemealing independent systems together, I don't see a real problem. It is when you create a totally integrated system that it becomes complicated.

What I have had as an NPC in the past was this set up:

Original SAMAS suit with a talisman of armor of ithan affixed with its own PPE battery as well as wielding a permanently enchanted magic sword.

I have also had TW weapons mounted on vehicles like Big Boss ATVs...I think that is kind of the point of PPE clips.

As mentioned previously, it might also make sense to hook a TW electrical generator/engine into a standard tech vehicle.

I don't think integrated it would have to be that big of a problem. Take your SAMAS for example, instead of a talisman you were able to get a Kuznya to rebuild its armor so that it is impervious to all Fire. Or instead of only being able to plate silver for a Vibro blade you can use pure silver that has bin magically made hard as steel.
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