Are TW Weapons worth the cost for non-magic characters?

[jburkett]

Hello, I was hoping to introduce some Techno-Wizard weapons and equipment into my current campaign but as I was skimming through some of the source books (RUE, Book of Magic, Federation of Magic) this question came up. For characters who don't use magic or have psionics and, therefore, don't have PPE or ISP why would they spend so much money on a TW weapon that requires a PPE clip (also very expensive initially and to recharge) and really doesn't seem to do more damage than a standard laser pistol? Perhaps there are more tantalizing offerings in another source book? Again, none of my players have PPE or ISP so they would need a weapon with a PPE clip or some other external source of magic energy. Has anyone found a way to make these weapons more appealing and less cost-prohibitive for the non-magic user/psionic? Any advice you can offer would be much appreciated. Thanks!

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hello, I was hoping to introduce some Techno-Wizard weapons and equipment into my current campaign but as I was skimming through some of the source books (RUE, Book of Magic, Federation of Magic) this question came up. For characters who don't use magic or have psionics and, therefore, don't have PPE or ISP why would they spend so much money on a TW weapon that requires a PPE clip (also very expensive initially and to recharge) and really doesn't seem to do more damage than a standard laser pistol? Perhaps there are more tantalizing offerings in another source book? Again, none of my players have PPE or ISP so they would need a weapon with a PPE clip or some other external source of magic energy. Has anyone found a way to make these weapons more appealing and less cost-prohibitive for the non-magic user/psionic? Any advice you can offer would be much appreciated. Thanks!

You're not missing anything, they're generally not worth the money for non magic-ISP using characters.

They exist and were deployed primarly in the context of magic kingdoms issuing standardized TW weaponry to everyone, Mage or Normal, wherein the cost to the individual is largely moot because their (and everyone elses) taxes are what's paying for it. Tolkeen for example used them widely for that reason. As to why they would pay so much more for something about as effective, it's because in Palladium most Mages and Magic-using kingdoms have an explict pro-magic bias where they think Magic is innately superior regardless of the reality.

And there are certain advantages to it they can use to justify it. For example, it simplifies supply trains considerably if someone in the Unit can completely recharge everyone's PPE clips anytime they have a few hours on a Ley Line, this eases the trouble of moving munitions around in the feild.

Secondly, they have no recoil, and so have +1 strike when firing bursts. for that matter, it even says an untrained person can use them with a straight die roll instead of firing wild. This is excellent once more in the context of magic-kingdom militias where most of their population is only marginally combat trained if at all. so the ability for mages who never bothered to pick up W.P. Energy Rifle to use them effectively is a strong consideration considering that prideful wizards would resent being thrown through boot camp.

Thirdly they provide the benefit of being PPE batteries in general, because mages can, if they need to, drain a PPE clip to power an important spell without a ritual. Which makes more sense in the context of mixed units--borrowing a few clips from a normie buddy for a spell because it's not like he needs the PPE, and you can just recharge all of them next line ley you come across.

Again, these are only marginal advantages in the context of a PC group of murderhobos who don't have to think about supply lines beyond what's in their packs and everyone has HtH combat and 3 W.P. Skills, but are not inconsiderable edges in the context of a lightly regulated magical militia trying to create mixed units of nonmagical and magical individuals and the difficulty of enforcing standardized training on a culture built on Idiosyncratic schools of magic which have conflicting if not outright contradictory philosophies. It's more expensive to provide nonmagical and nonpsychic troopers with PPE clips, but it's a lot easier politically to do so.

[Vrykolas2k]

Many of the Stormspire weapons can be used by mundanes, though they're expensive (especially when you compare a PPE clip to an Eclip).

[Axelmania]

The only reason I can see for it is for dealing with creatures who are utterly immune to non-magical weapons, such as Entities.

They'll help with vampires too, if you don't happen to have a crossbow lying around.

[Shark_Force]

if you don't have your own built-in supply of PPE or ISP, TW damaging weapons are indeed a pretty poor option. but the emphasis here is on the word *damaging*.

now, TW magic net guns, on the other hand... those are totally worth it. there are a variety of other TW weapons that offer more than just damage, and once again, those can be absolutely worth it in the right situation.

that said, i'm not sure where nekira is getting most that information. it's either in a book i've never read (which is totally possible, i don't own every rifts book ever) or possibly house rules. i've never heard anything stating that TW weapons don't have recoil (and it would be particularly odd if they had less recoil than laser weapons). i've never heard anything suggesting they're easier to use without a WP than regular weapons (there is a possible exception for actual spellcasters, iirc there's some text about them instinctively knowing how to use TW vehicles and such, but i've not seen any mechanics to that apart from the wing board). i've certainly never heard anything remotely suggesting that soldiers in magical kingdoms are so poorly trained they don't even have any WPs at all. or that mages can drain the PPE out of TW devices once it's been put in (with the exception of TW devices that are specifically designed only as PPE storage, which are only loosely described).

for actual spellcasters or psychics, however, i would say it does make sense; using magic to do damage tends to be a very sub-par option. your damage will generally not be as good as just using a weapon, and TW weapons have the advantage of generally being easier on the supply chain than more conventional weapons. it is pretty easy to go through e-clips rather quickly, especially when you're firing bursts or multiple pulses; a single round of combat can easily go through half an e-clip even on many of the more efficient guns.

it gets a lot less necessary the further into the timeline you go, though... in RMB, magic damaging spells had a very inefficient PPE ratio, you never got more than 2 spells per round without using TW or magic items, places to recharge e-clips were rare, recharging e-clips was expensive, and you never knew how far your limited resources could stretch. not to mention it used burst rules where you could unload half an e-clip in a single action easily. nowadays, you can buy e-clip rechargers to take with you, there's a spell that can recharge an e-clip by 50% (just don't overcharge, that ends poorly), and the standard burst rules from back in the day no longer apply, so you can't just use your 3d6 damage TW lightning gun (the one that replaces ion weapons) from the RMB to burst out 3d6x5 damage any more, which makes the ability to cheaply reload that gun in the middle of the wilderness a lot less valuable. also, while i would say damaging magic spells still leave something to be desired, there are now options which, if they aren't competitive with conventional weapons in range and damage (barring very high levels), at least can provide a means to damage your enemies at a low enough cost that you won't run out of PPE after a couple of rounds of combat.

(psionics i think always had efficient damage options available, sort of at least... if you could get your hands on a big enough collection of vibro-blades, that is)

so, if you're using RMB only, TW weapons are great. if you're using all of the books that have come out since then... much more situational.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hello, I was hoping to introduce some Techno-Wizard weapons and equipment into my current campaign but as I was skimming through some of the source books (RUE, Book of Magic, Federation of Magic) this question came up. For characters who don't use magic or have psionics and, therefore, don't have PPE or ISP why would they spend so much money on a TW weapon that requires a PPE clip (also very expensive initially and to recharge) and really doesn't seem to do more damage than a standard laser pistol?

First, to clarify:

The only people who can use TW devices in general are:
-people who can channel PPE, ISP, or Chi
-Supernatural beings and other creatures with high levels of PPE
-Children (sometimes)
-Adults who learned to use TW devices as children, and retained the ability when they grew up.

Unless a TW device is specified to be modified for normal people to use, then a normal person cannot activate even a fully charged TW device.

Now, in that context,
Why would a normal person use a TW gun that doesn't do more damage than a regular gun?

a) Some creatures are vulnerable (or particularly vulnerable) to magic, but are resistant or impervious to normal weapons.
b) Some TW weapons do extra damage at or near ley lines. If the normal person hangs out around ley lines, the damage could surpass that of a normal weapon.
c) If the normal person is travelling with a Techno-Wizard or other mage who can recharge the PPE Clips (or PPE batter) for free, this would provide the same kind of advantage as travelling with an Operator or other class whom the GM has house-ruled can recharge E-Clips for free.
d) There are three main camps of thought in Rifts PA times.
Some people blame Magic for the apocalypse, and they avoid magic.
Some people blame technology for the apocalypse, and they avoid magic.
Some people are in-between, or simply indifferent.
Anybody in the second camp would avoid technology in favor of magic to a strong degree.
e) It's not always about damage. A TW weapon might have other abilities that normal weapons can't have. A TW Net gun does zero damage, but it's a very effective weapon against human-sized targets within its range. Other weapons might have range advantages, area of effect damages, or other benefits over various tech weapons.

Has anyone found a way to make these weapons more appealing and less cost-prohibitive for the non-magic user/psionic?

They are not supposed to be appealing to non-magic/non-psionic/non-supernatural characters.
Until RUE added the special TW feature that allowed normal people to use TW devices, normal people couldn't use TW devices at all (except for as noted above).

[ShadowLogan]

For characters who don't use magic or have psionics and, therefore, don't have PPE or ISP why would they spend so much money on a TW weapon that requires a PPE clip (also very expensive initially and to recharge) and really doesn't seem to do more damage than a standard laser pistol? Perhaps there are more tantalizing offerings in another source book? Again, none of my players have PPE or ISP so they would need a weapon with a PPE clip or some other external source of magic energy.

Re: The Why?
1. Prestige (most TW items are not "mass produced", so you have the prestige of owning a rare item, possibly one of a kind. Take in that they are also likely hand-crafted, etc. It's magic.)
2. A probable enemy they expect to face is vulnerable to magic
3. They don't give much thought to the long term use
4. While the majority of TW items aren't necessarily viable/attractive in terms of performance, there are some that just can't be beat. A TW Lightblade one could argue is better than any Vibro-Blade (deals more damage, doesn't require PPE/ISP to run though SDC/HP).
5. As KC said, Ley Lines can improve performance and then you have non-damage abilities that might be more useful
6. Deception, they may want people to think they are a "big bad" mage/psychic, or they are in cahoots with something that is resistant to the weapons in question and they are "staging a fight"

Has anyone found a way to make these weapons more appealing and less cost-prohibitive for the non-magic user/psionic? Any advice you can offer would be much appreciated. Thanks!

[/quote]
If the items is presented in RUE format, you could in theory raise or lower the device level and alter gem quality (earlier RMB standard likely works to, but requires a bit more work). If the item has higher gem quality than needed, it lowers the PPE construction cost lowering the activation cost (potentially giving greater payload all other things being equal) and the item cost (all other things being equal). Device Level can also have an impact on the PPC construction cost and item cost, raising the device level raises the costs, but also means better performance potentially (depends on the specific spells involved).

You may have to accept that such items aren't going to be appealing for certain roles.

PPE Clip is not the only option, you can also use a Lifesource in the construction (or make a TW Lifescource Clip to take the place of a PPE Clip)

[HarleeKnight]

Hello, I was hoping to introduce some Techno-Wizard weapons and equipment into my current campaign but as I was skimming through some of the source books (RUE, Book of Magic, Federation of Magic) this question came up. For characters who don't use magic or have psionics and, therefore, don't have PPE or ISP why would they spend so much money on a TW weapon that requires a PPE clip (also very expensive initially and to recharge) and really doesn't seem to do more damage than a standard laser pistol? Perhaps there are more tantalizing offerings in another source book? Again, none of my players have PPE or ISP so they would need a weapon with a PPE clip or some other external source of magic energy. Has anyone found a way to make these weapons more appealing and less cost-prohibitive for the non-magic user/psionic? Any advice you can offer would be much appreciated. Thanks!

You're not missing anything, they're generally not worth the money for non magic-ISP using characters.

They exist and were deployed primarly in the context of magic kingdoms issuing standardized TW weaponry to everyone, Mage or Normal, wherein the cost to the individual is largely moot because their (and everyone elses) taxes are what's paying for it. Tolkeen for example used them widely for that reason. As to why they would pay so much more for something about as effective, it's because in Palladium most Mages and Magic-using kingdoms have an explict pro-magic bias where they think Magic is innately superior regardless of the reality.

And there are certain advantages to it they can use to justify it. For example, it simplifies supply trains considerably if someone in the Unit can completely recharge everyone's PPE clips anytime they have a few hours on a Ley Line, this eases the trouble of moving munitions around in the feild.

Secondly, they have no recoil, and so have +1 strike when firing bursts. for that matter, it even says an untrained person can use them with a straight die roll instead of firing wild. This is excellent once more in the context of magic-kingdom militias where most of their population is only marginally combat trained if at all. so the ability for mages who never bothered to pick up W.P. Energy Rifle to use them effectively is a strong consideration considering that prideful wizards would resent being thrown through boot camp.

Thirdly they provide the benefit of being PPE batteries in general, because mages can, if they need to, drain a PPE clip to power an important spell without a ritual. Which makes more sense in the context of mixed units--borrowing a few clips from a normie buddy for a spell because it's not like he needs the PPE, and you can just recharge all of them next line ley you come across.

Again, these are only marginal advantages in the context of a PC group of murderhobos who don't have to think about supply lines beyond what's in their packs and everyone has HtH combat and 3 W.P. Skills, but are not inconsiderable edges in the context of a lightly regulated magical militia trying to create mixed units of nonmagical and magical individuals and the difficulty of enforcing standardized training on a culture built on Idiosyncratic schools of magic which have conflicting if not outright contradictory philosophies. It's more expensive to provide nonmagical and nonpsychic troopers with PPE clips, but it's a lot easier politically to do so.

Where does it say that they can be recharged by anyone but a Techno-Wizard? The Mystic Knights of the White Rose are the only place I've seen them mentioned as being rechargeable by anyone else.
Where does it say they can be drained and used as PPE batteries to refill personal PPE or used to charge spells?

[eliakon]

The big issue is that unless the device has PPE storage built in (most devices do NOT) then you have to 'pay as you go'

Also, I hear all the time about mages being able to use TW devices as batteries...but no one has ever shown me were the rules say you can do that. It is a pretty common headcanon though so check with your GM.

The big factor for TW devices is simply this... they offer access to tools that normal tech usually can't provide. if that is something that is of value then they are worth the investment, if that is not something that is worth your investment then they aren't.

[Blue_Lion]

Hello, I was hoping to introduce some Techno-Wizard weapons and equipment into my current campaign but as I was skimming through some of the source books (RUE, Book of Magic, Federation of Magic) this question came up. For characters who don't use magic or have psionics and, therefore, don't have PPE or ISP why would they spend so much money on a TW weapon that requires a PPE clip (also very expensive initially and to recharge) and really doesn't seem to do more damage than a standard laser pistol? Perhaps there are more tantalizing offerings in another source book? Again, none of my players have PPE or ISP so they would need a weapon with a PPE clip or some other external source of magic energy. Has anyone found a way to make these weapons more appealing and less cost-prohibitive for the non-magic user/psionic? Any advice you can offer would be much appreciated. Thanks!

For the most part they can't use them even with a PPE clip. Even if they grow up using TW only a certain population retains the abilty to use tw(think the option was introduced in new west then the % was increased in anzo). So out side the few places that tw is every where only mages and psi can use them. (default is that most people can not use them.)
Rue has a option to allow them to use them but the default is they can not.

Basically TW is not intended to be used by every one. So there is not reason for making them appeal to people outside the target audience.

[Shark_Force]

Hello, I was hoping to introduce some Techno-Wizard weapons and equipment into my current campaign but as I was skimming through some of the source books (RUE, Book of Magic, Federation of Magic) this question came up. For characters who don't use magic or have psionics and, therefore, don't have PPE or ISP why would they spend so much money on a TW weapon that requires a PPE clip (also very expensive initially and to recharge) and really doesn't seem to do more damage than a standard laser pistol? Perhaps there are more tantalizing offerings in another source book? Again, none of my players have PPE or ISP so they would need a weapon with a PPE clip or some other external source of magic energy. Has anyone found a way to make these weapons more appealing and less cost-prohibitive for the non-magic user/psionic? Any advice you can offer would be much appreciated. Thanks!

For the most part they can't use them even with a PPE clip. Even if they grow up using TW only a certain population retains the abilty to use tw(think the option was introduced in new west then the % was increased in anzo). So out side the few places that tw is every where only mages and psi can use them. (default is that most people can not use them.)
Rue has a option to allow them to use them but the default is they can not.

Basically TW is not intended to be used by every one. So there is not reason for making them appeal to people outside the target audience.

0
the TW clips are explicitly made for the purpose of allowing those who normally could not use TW to be able to use TW. so actually, with those clips, normal folk absolutely can use TW weapons.

[Killer Cyborg]

the TW clips are explicitly made for the purpose of allowing those who normally could not use TW to be able to use TW.

Source?

[ShadowLogan]

i've never heard anything stating that TW weapons don't have recoil (and it would be particularly odd if they had less recoil than laser weapons).

WB16o pg112. This is in the Techno-Wizard Device part of the book (1st page for them), under the Techno-Wizard Weapon subheading and the paragraph talking about bursts (burst is bolded). "Because the TW weapons are generatring spells, there is no recoil from firing them."

It also mentions that unskilled users do so at straight die roll instead of the usual -6 penalty, skilled users still get benifit of their WP.

Also, I hear all the time about mages being able to use TW devices as batteries...but no one has ever shown me were the rules say you can do that.

Well the Magic Energy Cells as described in WB16o pg112 paint them as "essentially powerful Talismans that store P.PE.E". While not outright, it suggests they are PPE Battery Talismans.

Also favoring this is that "it is relatively easy for any mage with the knowledge of making talismans to recharge." If a Talisman knowledge is needed to recharge it, then the reverse might also be possible (it may require the proper knowledge IDK).

[Shark_Force]

the TW clips are explicitly made for the purpose of allowing those who normally could not use TW to be able to use TW.

Source?

hmmmm.... federation of magic belongs to a friend that moved away. book of magic doesn't talk about why those e-clips even exist, as far as i can tell.

so it should be in the (original, not 100% sure it would be in the revised) federation of magic world book where it introduces the concept of PPE clips, discussing the fact that they're stormspire's answer to the problem that you can't really sell TW weapons to nearly as large of a market as conventional weapons that use e-clips.

[Blue_Lion]

the TW clips are explicitly made for the purpose of allowing those who normally could not use TW to be able to use TW.

Source?

hmmmm.... federation of magic belongs to a friend that moved away. book of magic doesn't talk about why those e-clips even exist, as far as i can tell.

so it should be in the (original, not 100% sure it would be in the revised) federation of magic world book where it introduces the concept of PPE clips, discussing the fact that they're stormspire's answer to the problem that you can't really sell TW weapons to nearly as large of a market as conventional weapons that use e-clips.

Nothing in FoM unrevised says anything about that being a feature. The flavor text on a few weapons said that juicers love them and that they could carry them. It never said juicer could use them. This flavor text caused several people including myself to assume that they could be used that way.(at the time we had juicers that where psi) However in a debate with I believe DrDoom III and eliakon I did research and found that it never said the had that power, it was just a conclusion I jumped to.

A PPE clip can power a TW device but a normal person can not use TW items even if the are powered/fully charged, at the time FoM was written and the BoM was written. In Rue there is an option for TW to design devices for mundanes to use, this is a special feature not the default so would require them telling us they can. There are only a handful of devices that specifically tell us that any one can us them. (not cannon but I assume this is because normally you have to channel PPE to make the device work something that those attuned to the supernatural can do.)

Eliakon the start of using TW devices as bateries for PPE Started with devices like vehicles(found in FoM) that store PPE and not just a charge. This was further aided by TW PPE batties not attached to any device found in a rifter. The option to store PPE in devices in the TW guide found in RUE add an option to draw PPE from the device

P.P.E. is stored for the purpose of powering the device, not for the practitioner of magic's personal use, although this P.P.E. can be siphoned back out at a rate of 10 P.P.E. per attack/action (twice as fast for a Techno-Wizard).

-TW batteries for tech are part of the original write up of TW in Rifts RPG

[TechnoGothic]

(1) NO, non-magic characters shouldn't rely on TW at all.
(2) A Back-up Sidearm to harm beings that csn be only harm by magic weapibs, spells, etc... Yes. Worth it as backup only.
(3) Rune Weapons or Mystic Melee Weapons are worth it if the user doesn't need to activate powers for it.

[TechnoGothic]

(1) NO, non-magic characters shouldn't rely on TW at all.
(2) A Back-up Sidearm to harm beings that csn be only harm by magic weapibs, spells, etc... Yes. Worth it as backup only.
(3) Rune Weapons or Mystic Melee Weapons are worth it if the user doesn't need to activate powers for it.

[Killer Cyborg]

the TW clips are explicitly made for the purpose of allowing those who normally could not use TW to be able to use TW.

Source?

hmmmm.... federation of magic belongs to a friend that moved away. book of magic doesn't talk about why those e-clips even exist, as far as i can tell.

so it should be in the (original, not 100% sure it would be in the revised) federation of magic world book where it introduces the concept of PPE clips, discussing the fact that they're stormspire's answer to the problem that you can't really sell TW weapons to nearly as large of a market as conventional weapons that use e-clips.

If that’s in any of the books, nobody has ever found it or pointed it out in past discussions on this issue.
IIRC, the strongest arguments to date in support of the idea that Stormspire PPE Clips allow mundanes to use TW devices is an offhand comment of “Borgs love them” in one of the TW Gun descriptions.
But since there are TW borgs, psychic borgs, and so forth—not to mention that sometimes writers forget the rules—that was never a very strong argument.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hello, I was hoping to introduce some Techno-Wizard weapons and equipment into my current campaign but as I was skimming through some of the source books (RUE, Book of Magic, Federation of Magic) this question came up. For characters who don't use magic or have psionics and, therefore, don't have PPE or ISP why would they spend so much money on a TW weapon that requires a PPE clip (also very expensive initially and to recharge) and really doesn't seem to do more damage than a standard laser pistol? Perhaps there are more tantalizing offerings in another source book? Again, none of my players have PPE or ISP so they would need a weapon with a PPE clip or some other external source of magic energy. Has anyone found a way to make these weapons more appealing and less cost-prohibitive for the non-magic user/psionic? Any advice you can offer would be much appreciated. Thanks!

You're not missing anything, they're generally not worth the money for non magic-ISP using characters.

They exist and were deployed primarly in the context of magic kingdoms issuing standardized TW weaponry to everyone, Mage or Normal, wherein the cost to the individual is largely moot because their (and everyone elses) taxes are what's paying for it. Tolkeen for example used them widely for that reason. As to why they would pay so much more for something about as effective, it's because in Palladium most Mages and Magic-using kingdoms have an explict pro-magic bias where they think Magic is innately superior regardless of the reality.

And there are certain advantages to it they can use to justify it. For example, it simplifies supply trains considerably if someone in the Unit can completely recharge everyone's PPE clips anytime they have a few hours on a Ley Line, this eases the trouble of moving munitions around in the feild.

Secondly, they have no recoil, and so have +1 strike when firing bursts. for that matter, it even says an untrained person can use them with a straight die roll instead of firing wild. This is excellent once more in the context of magic-kingdom militias where most of their population is only marginally combat trained if at all. so the ability for mages who never bothered to pick up W.P. Energy Rifle to use them effectively is a strong consideration considering that prideful wizards would resent being thrown through boot camp.

Thirdly they provide the benefit of being PPE batteries in general, because mages can, if they need to, drain a PPE clip to power an important spell without a ritual. Which makes more sense in the context of mixed units--borrowing a few clips from a normie buddy for a spell because it's not like he needs the PPE, and you can just recharge all of them next line ley you come across.

Again, these are only marginal advantages in the context of a PC group of murderhobos who don't have to think about supply lines beyond what's in their packs and everyone has HtH combat and 3 W.P. Skills, but are not inconsiderable edges in the context of a lightly regulated magical militia trying to create mixed units of nonmagical and magical individuals and the difficulty of enforcing standardized training on a culture built on Idiosyncratic schools of magic which have conflicting if not outright contradictory philosophies. It's more expensive to provide nonmagical and nonpsychic troopers with PPE clips, but it's a lot easier politically to do so.

Where does it say that they can be recharged by anyone but a Techno-Wizard? The Mystic Knights of the White Rose are the only place I've seen them mentioned as being rechargeable by anyone else.

I didn't say anyone could recharge them. I said "Someone in the Unit can", presuming a magic kingdom would have the werewithall to put at least one person who can in any given company.

Where does it say they can be drained and used as PPE batteries to refill personal PPE or used to charge spells?

RUE page 131. A TW PPE battery for powering a device can have the PPE psiphoned off for personal use, just at a slower rate of 10 PPE per action. Not great in combat but a useful way to grather a bunch of PPE to recharge depeleted personal reserves or power large spells outside of combat.

[Vrykolas2k]

the TW clips are explicitly made for the purpose of allowing those who normally could not use TW to be able to use TW.

Source?

Federation of Magic, same section where it describes the PPE clips as a modified version of the Amulet spell.
Edit: I meant Talisman spell.

[Killer Cyborg]

the TW clips are explicitly made for the purpose of allowing those who normally could not use TW to be able to use TW.

Source?

Federation of Magic, same section where it describes the PPE clips as a modified version of the Amulet spell.

Direct quote?

[Blue_Lion]

the TW clips are explicitly made for the purpose of allowing those who normally could not use TW to be able to use TW.

Source?

Federation of Magic, same section where it describes the PPE clips as a modified version of the Amulet spell.

Direct quote?

Looking in my books it does not say they allow any one to use tw in that section. Quote below.-I have looked no such quote existed in either version of FoM.

Magic Energy Cells: Most Stormspire Techno-Wizard firearms require P.P.E. "energy cells" to function. These are essentially powerful Talismans that store P.P.E. The cells are uniform and often look like ordinary E-clips (except for a few magic symbols), so that a single clip can fit in any TW weapon. Black Market Cost: 40,000 credits each; it is basically a limited, energy storage talisman.

The closet quote is one about not needing to pay P.P.E. but that is not close to the same thing.

Of the most popular Techno-Wizard items available from Stormspire, among them are TW vehicles, and rifles and pistols capable of firing magical energy without P.P.E. cost to the user!

There is no quote in the book about allowing people to use them.

[HarleeKnight]

Hello, I was hoping to introduce some Techno-Wizard weapons and equipment into my current campaign but as I was skimming through some of the source books (RUE, Book of Magic, Federation of Magic) this question came up. For characters who don't use magic or have psionics and, therefore, don't have PPE or ISP why would they spend so much money on a TW weapon that requires a PPE clip (also very expensive initially and to recharge) and really doesn't seem to do more damage than a standard laser pistol? Perhaps there are more tantalizing offerings in another source book? Again, none of my players have PPE or ISP so they would need a weapon with a PPE clip or some other external source of magic energy. Has anyone found a way to make these weapons more appealing and less cost-prohibitive for the non-magic user/psionic? Any advice you can offer would be much appreciated. Thanks!

You're not missing anything, they're generally not worth the money for non magic-ISP using characters.

They exist and were deployed primarly in the context of magic kingdoms issuing standardized TW weaponry to everyone, Mage or Normal, wherein the cost to the individual is largely moot because their (and everyone elses) taxes are what's paying for it. Tolkeen for example used them widely for that reason. As to why they would pay so much more for something about as effective, it's because in Palladium most Mages and Magic-using kingdoms have an explict pro-magic bias where they think Magic is innately superior regardless of the reality.

And there are certain advantages to it they can use to justify it. For example, it simplifies supply trains considerably if someone in the Unit can completely recharge everyone's PPE clips anytime they have a few hours on a Ley Line, this eases the trouble of moving munitions around in the feild.

Secondly, they have no recoil, and so have +1 strike when firing bursts. for that matter, it even says an untrained person can use them with a straight die roll instead of firing wild. This is excellent once more in the context of magic-kingdom militias where most of their population is only marginally combat trained if at all. so the ability for mages who never bothered to pick up W.P. Energy Rifle to use them effectively is a strong consideration considering that prideful wizards would resent being thrown through boot camp.

Thirdly they provide the benefit of being PPE batteries in general, because mages can, if they need to, drain a PPE clip to power an important spell without a ritual. Which makes more sense in the context of mixed units--borrowing a few clips from a normie buddy for a spell because it's not like he needs the PPE, and you can just recharge all of them next line ley you come across.

Again, these are only marginal advantages in the context of a PC group of murderhobos who don't have to think about supply lines beyond what's in their packs and everyone has HtH combat and 3 W.P. Skills, but are not inconsiderable edges in the context of a lightly regulated magical militia trying to create mixed units of nonmagical and magical individuals and the difficulty of enforcing standardized training on a culture built on Idiosyncratic schools of magic which have conflicting if not outright contradictory philosophies. It's more expensive to provide nonmagical and nonpsychic troopers with PPE clips, but it's a lot easier politically to do so.

Where does it say that they can be recharged by anyone but a Techno-Wizard? The Mystic Knights of the White Rose are the only place I've seen them mentioned as being rechargeable by anyone else.

I didn't say anyone could recharge them. I said "Someone in the Unit can", presuming a magic kingdom would have the werewithall to put at least one person who can in any given company.

Where does it say they can be drained and used as PPE batteries to refill personal PPE or used to charge spells?

RUE page 131. A TW PPE battery for powering a device can have the PPE psiphoned off for personal use, just at a slower rate of 10 PPE per action. Not great in combat but a useful way to grather a bunch of PPE to recharge depeleted personal reserves or power large spells outside of combat.

Thank you for the RUE page number. I missed that in my reading on the subject.

I have thought of another problem with draining the Stromspire PPE clips; we have no idea how much PPE it takes to recharge one, so how can we know how much we can siphon from them? FoM states that the weapons can be powered by personal PPE at the rate of 10 PPE per shot for pistols and 20 PPE per shot for rifles, however, not all the weapons have the same payload per clip. So we can't use this as a reference.
The Knights of the White Rose can recharge the PPE clips for 60 PPE, so we might use that as the reference, but that seems to be both not enough and too much for powering some of these weapons.

[jburkett]

Thanks for the input on this topic. I guess I wrongly assumed that anyone could use a TW weapon/device if it had a PPE clip/battery. I then went back to RUE (in the initial description of the Techno-Wizard) and read "People who are not psychic or mystically oriented can not operate the devices at all". It goes on to explain than non-magic/psionics are actually baffled by them. So, apparently it takes more than just a reserve of personal PPE/ISP to operate TW creations. So, that being resolved, what if any magic weapons or items can be used by non-magic users? The weapons and items in the Book of Magic all seem to be pretty high powered. The amulates did catch my attention as an option but there are no prices listed for them. It also isn't clear to me if they only have a certain number of uses. As written, it seems like they can be used at any time and don't deplete (unless I am missing something). And what if I don't want to introduce Rune Weapons just yet (seems a bit high powered)? What are some options for low-powered magic weapons for the non-magic/psionic character? Is there an equivalent to the ubiquitous +1 sword, for example? Again, thanks for all the great feedback!

[Jorick]

Thanks for the input on this topic. I guess I wrongly assumed that anyone could use a TW weapon/device if it had a PPE clip/battery. I then went back to RUE (in the initial description of the Techno-Wizard) and read "People who are not psychic or mystically oriented can not operate the devices at all". It goes on to explain than non-magic/psionics are actually baffled by them. So, apparently it takes more than just a reserve of personal PPE/ISP to operate TW creations. So, that being resolved, what if any magic weapons or items can be used by non-magic users? The weapons and items in the Book of Magic all seem to be pretty high powered. The amulates did catch my attention as an option but there are no prices listed for them. It also isn't clear to me if they only have a certain number of uses. As written, it seems like they can be used at any time and don't deplete (unless I am missing something). And what if I don't want to introduce Rune Weapons just yet (seems a bit high powered)? What are some options for low-powered magic weapons for the non-magic/psionic character? Is there an equivalent to the ubiquitous +1 sword, for example? Again, thanks for all the great feedback!

A lot of the confusion re. "ppe clips" may stem from the South America 1 book wherein Manoa creates "Techno Wizard" weapons that are usable by anyone. They are "CJ TW" weapons, by which I mean: "in that book and others (e.g. the PW Dimension Books), CJ used the term techno wizardry perhaps a bit more liberally than originally intended." There is a kind of technological wizardry that may be endemic to North America that is described in detail in the RMB and RUE. This is different from other magical, or magic based, technologies, which may also be referred to as "techno-wizardy" (especially by CJ).

The Manoan TW weapons incorporate stone magic, allow mundanes to use the weapons as normal, and allow passive reloading in the correct environment.

UWW Marine PA is another example of "CJ TW" usable by mundanes.

Yes, there is an equivalent for a "+1 magic weapon." Magic or "enchanted" weapons (not rune weapons...although those, as you mention, are also examples), more common in Palladium Fantasy, are also usable by anyone who could normally use the base weapon.

[Blue_Lion]

Hello, I was hoping to introduce some Techno-Wizard weapons and equipment into my current campaign but as I was skimming through some of the source books (RUE, Book of Magic, Federation of Magic) this question came up. For characters who don't use magic or have psionics and, therefore, don't have PPE or ISP why would they spend so much money on a TW weapon that requires a PPE clip (also very expensive initially and to recharge) and really doesn't seem to do more damage than a standard laser pistol? Perhaps there are more tantalizing offerings in another source book? Again, none of my players have PPE or ISP so they would need a weapon with a PPE clip or some other external source of magic energy. Has anyone found a way to make these weapons more appealing and less cost-prohibitive for the non-magic user/psionic? Any advice you can offer would be much appreciated. Thanks!

You're not missing anything, they're generally not worth the money for non magic-ISP using characters.

They exist and were deployed primarly in the context of magic kingdoms issuing standardized TW weaponry to everyone, Mage or Normal, wherein the cost to the individual is largely moot because their (and everyone elses) taxes are what's paying for it. Tolkeen for example used them widely for that reason. As to why they would pay so much more for something about as effective, it's because in Palladium most Mages and Magic-using kingdoms have an explict pro-magic bias where they think Magic is innately superior regardless of the reality.

And there are certain advantages to it they can use to justify it. For example, it simplifies supply trains considerably if someone in the Unit can completely recharge everyone's PPE clips anytime they have a few hours on a Ley Line, this eases the trouble of moving munitions around in the feild.

Secondly, they have no recoil, and so have +1 strike when firing bursts. for that matter, it even says an untrained person can use them with a straight die roll instead of firing wild. This is excellent once more in the context of magic-kingdom militias where most of their population is only marginally combat trained if at all. so the ability for mages who never bothered to pick up W.P. Energy Rifle to use them effectively is a strong consideration considering that prideful wizards would resent being thrown through boot camp.

Thirdly they provide the benefit of being PPE batteries in general, because mages can, if they need to, drain a PPE clip to power an important spell without a ritual. Which makes more sense in the context of mixed units--borrowing a few clips from a normie buddy for a spell because it's not like he needs the PPE, and you can just recharge all of them next line ley you come across.

Again, these are only marginal advantages in the context of a PC group of murderhobos who don't have to think about supply lines beyond what's in their packs and everyone has HtH combat and 3 W.P. Skills, but are not inconsiderable edges in the context of a lightly regulated magical militia trying to create mixed units of nonmagical and magical individuals and the difficulty of enforcing standardized training on a culture built on Idiosyncratic schools of magic which have conflicting if not outright contradictory philosophies. It's more expensive to provide nonmagical and nonpsychic troopers with PPE clips, but it's a lot easier politically to do so.

Where does it say that they can be recharged by anyone but a Techno-Wizard? The Mystic Knights of the White Rose are the only place I've seen them mentioned as being rechargeable by anyone else.

I didn't say anyone could recharge them. I said "Someone in the Unit can", presuming a magic kingdom would have the werewithall to put at least one person who can in any given company.

Where does it say they can be drained and used as PPE batteries to refill personal PPE or used to charge spells?

RUE page 131. A TW PPE battery for powering a device can have the PPE psiphoned off for personal use, just at a slower rate of 10 PPE per action. Not great in combat but a useful way to grather a bunch of PPE to recharge depeleted personal reserves or power large spells outside of combat.

Thank you for the RUE page number. I missed that in my reading on the subject.

I have thought of another problem with draining the Stromspire PPE clips; we have no idea how much PPE it takes to recharge one, so how can we know how much we can siphon from them? FoM states that the weapons can be powered by personal PPE at the rate of 10 PPE per shot for pistols and 20 PPE per shot for rifles, however, not all the weapons have the same payload per clip. So we can't use this as a reference.
The Knights of the White Rose can recharge the PPE clips for 60 PPE, so we might use that as the reference, but that seems to be both not enough and too much for powering some of these weapons.

I treat it as the same as a talisman spell it is just more efficient to use it to power the special weapons.

[Blue_Lion]

Thanks for the input on this topic. I guess I wrongly assumed that anyone could use a TW weapon/device if it had a PPE clip/battery. I then went back to RUE (in the initial description of the Techno-Wizard) and read "People who are not psychic or mystically oriented can not operate the devices at all". It goes on to explain than non-magic/psionics are actually baffled by them. So, apparently it takes more than just a reserve of personal PPE/ISP to operate TW creations. So, that being resolved, what if any magic weapons or items can be used by non-magic users? The weapons and items in the Book of Magic all seem to be pretty high powered. The amulates did catch my attention as an option but there are no prices listed for them. It also isn't clear to me if they only have a certain number of uses. As written, it seems like they can be used at any time and don't deplete (unless I am missing something). And what if I don't want to introduce Rune Weapons just yet (seems a bit high powered)? What are some options for low-powered magic weapons for the non-magic/psionic character? Is there an equivalent to the ubiquitous +1 sword, for example? Again, thanks for all the great feedback!

A lot of the confusion re. "ppe clips" may stem from the South America 1 book wherein Manoa creates "Techno Wizard" weapons that are usable by anyone. They are "CJ TW" weapons, by which I mean: "in that book and others (e.g. the PW Dimension Books), CJ used the term techno wizardry perhaps a bit more liberally than originally intended." There is a kind of technological wizardry that may be endemic to North America that is described in detail in the RMB and RUE. This is different from other magical, or magic based, technologies, which may also be referred to as "techno-wizardy" (especially by CJ).

The Manoan TW weapons incorporate stone magic, allow mundanes to use the weapons as normal, and allow passive reloading in the correct environment.

UWW Marine PA is another example of "CJ TW" usable by mundanes.

Yes, there is an equivalent for a "+1 magic weapon." Magic or "enchanted" weapons (not rune weapons...although those, as you mention, are also examples), more common in Palladium Fantasy, are also usable by anyone who could normally use the base weapon.

Tws can work with other magic users to create tw items.
The monoan are declared as being used by any one. That is not the case of stormspire weapons. The precedence for special tw items, and the need to declare them predates any world book. The original TW write up in rifts RPG included a mind block helmet that could be used by anyone. And stated that it was special case.


The PPE eclips never say anyone can use them, that is just a conclusion people jump to.

[Shark_Force]

could've swore the stormspire weapons had that as their entire point. the clips were stupid expensive to get, could only be recharged in a handful of places, and were stupid expensive to recharge as well. there might be some reason to consider accepting those restrictions if you're not able to use normal TW weapons (at least, for some of them... for most of the purely damage-dealing weapons, it was just a bad deal for everyone period), but it's a pretty crappy deal for anyone who could just use conventional TW weapons instead.

anyways, whether stormspire TW devices could be used by anyone as of FoM, as of RUE it is possible to make TW devices that anyone can use, although they need to include either a built-in PPE battery of some form or some other method of obtaining PPE (there's one that deals damage to the wearer to power the weapon... i think it's a light blade or something like that). note that including such a power source does not make the device usable by anyone; it is merely a prerequisite to being able to do so (actually doing so costs no additional money beyond the cost of having that power source, however).

if stormspire weapons couldn't be used by everyone back in the day, it is at least highly likely that they have versions that can be as of the RUE update... that would be a huge increase to their market.

so the question still remains relevant; are TW weapons worth the cost for non-magic (and non-psychic) characters? and i'd give the same answer; for some TW weapons (but mostly devices), yes. it is absolutely worth the cost. but mostly not for the ones that just deal damage.

[jburkett]

could've swore the stormspire weapons had that as their entire point. the clips were stupid expensive to get, could only be recharged in a handful of places, and were stupid expensive to recharge as well. there might be some reason to consider accepting those restrictions if you're not able to use normal TW weapons (at least, for some of them... for most of the purely damage-dealing weapons, it was just a bad deal for everyone period), but it's a pretty crappy deal for anyone who could just use conventional TW weapons instead.

anyways, whether stormspire TW devices could be used by anyone as of FoM, as of RUE it is possible to make TW devices that anyone can use, although they need to include either a built-in PPE battery of some form or some other method of obtaining PPE (there's one that deals damage to the wearer to power the weapon... i think it's a light blade or something like that). note that including such a power source does not make the device usable by anyone; it is merely a prerequisite to being able to do so (actually doing so costs no additional money beyond the cost of having that power source, however).

if stormspire weapons couldn't be used by everyone back in the day, it is at least highly likely that they have versions that can be as of the RUE update... that would be a huge increase to their market.

so the question still remains relevant; are TW weapons worth the cost for non-magic (and non-psychic) characters? and i'd give the same answer; for some TW weapons (but mostly devices), yes. it is absolutely worth the cost. but mostly not for the ones that just deal damage.

Can you quote a section of RUE where it explicitly states that anyone can use TW weapons and devices? The only statement I found stated that non-magic users and non-psionics could NOT. (see my last post for the quoted text). I think we resolved that just because a TW device has a PPE clip/battery that doesn't mean anyone can use them. It is highly possible that there is something I overlooked in RUE. Thanks!

[Killer Cyborg]

could've swore the stormspire weapons had that as their entire point. the clips were stupid expensive to get, could only be recharged in a handful of places, and were stupid expensive to recharge as well. there might be some reason to consider accepting those restrictions if you're not able to use normal TW weapons (at least, for some of them... for most of the purely damage-dealing weapons, it was just a bad deal for everyone period), but it's a pretty crappy deal for anyone who could just use conventional TW weapons instead.

Not really.
One problem with standard TW stuff was that the only way to reload them was to use your own personal PPE... and for mages, that's often best held in reserve for casting actual spells.
For psychics, it's the same deal only moreso, because the TW devices that can use ISP to recharge take up twice the ISP as PPE as a rule.
PPE clips have the same advantages of E-Clips--you can reload without depleting your personal energy reserves, and you can reload even if your own reserves are already depleted.

anyways, whether stormspire TW devices could be used by anyone as of FoM, as of RUE it is possible to make TW devices that anyone can use, although they need to include either a built-in PPE battery of some form or some other method of obtaining PPE (there's one that deals damage to the wearer to power the weapon... i think it's a light blade or something like that). note that including such a power source does not make the device usable by anyone; it is merely a prerequisite to being able to do so (actually doing so costs no additional money beyond the cost of having that power source, however).

if stormspire weapons couldn't be used by everyone back in the day, it is at least highly likely that they have versions that can be as of the RUE update... that would be a huge increase to their market.

Agreed.
Should be easily available as far as I'm concerned.

[Killer Cyborg]

could've swore the stormspire weapons had that as their entire point. the clips were stupid expensive to get, could only be recharged in a handful of places, and were stupid expensive to recharge as well. there might be some reason to consider accepting those restrictions if you're not able to use normal TW weapons (at least, for some of them... for most of the purely damage-dealing weapons, it was just a bad deal for everyone period), but it's a pretty crappy deal for anyone who could just use conventional TW weapons instead.

anyways, whether stormspire TW devices could be used by anyone as of FoM, as of RUE it is possible to make TW devices that anyone can use, although they need to include either a built-in PPE battery of some form or some other method of obtaining PPE (there's one that deals damage to the wearer to power the weapon... i think it's a light blade or something like that). note that including such a power source does not make the device usable by anyone; it is merely a prerequisite to being able to do so (actually doing so costs no additional money beyond the cost of having that power source, however).

if stormspire weapons couldn't be used by everyone back in the day, it is at least highly likely that they have versions that can be as of the RUE update... that would be a huge increase to their market.

so the question still remains relevant; are TW weapons worth the cost for non-magic (and non-psychic) characters? and i'd give the same answer; for some TW weapons (but mostly devices), yes. it is absolutely worth the cost. but mostly not for the ones that just deal damage.

Can you quote a section of RUE where it explicitly states that anyone can use TW weapons and devices? The only statement I found stated that non-magic users and non-psionics could NOT. (see my last post for the quoted text). I think we resolved that just because a TW device has a PPE clip/battery that doesn't mean anyone can use them. It is highly possible that there is something I overlooked in RUE. Thanks!

He's referring to a specific ability that can be built into TW devices, the ability for the device to be used by normal people.
I don't have my books at the moment, so I can't be more helpful than that, but check in the TW Creation rules and read through them carefully.

[Blue_Lion]

could've swore the stormspire weapons had that as their entire point. the clips were stupid expensive to get, could only be recharged in a handful of places, and were stupid expensive to recharge as well. there might be some reason to consider accepting those restrictions if you're not able to use normal TW weapons (at least, for some of them... for most of the purely damage-dealing weapons, it was just a bad deal for everyone period), but it's a pretty crappy deal for anyone who could just use conventional TW weapons instead.

anyways, whether stormspire TW devices could be used by anyone as of FoM, as of RUE it is possible to make TW devices that anyone can use, although they need to include either a built-in PPE battery of some form or some other method of obtaining PPE (there's one that deals damage to the wearer to power the weapon... i think it's a light blade or something like that). note that including such a power source does not make the device usable by anyone; it is merely a prerequisite to being able to do so (actually doing so costs no additional money beyond the cost of having that power source, however).

if stormspire weapons couldn't be used by everyone back in the day, it is at least highly likely that they have versions that can be as of the RUE update... that would be a huge increase to their market.

so the question still remains relevant; are TW weapons worth the cost for non-magic (and non-psychic) characters? and i'd give the same answer; for some TW weapons (but mostly devices), yes. it is absolutely worth the cost. but mostly not for the ones that just deal damage.

Can you quote a section of RUE where it explicitly states that anyone can use TW weapons and devices? The only statement I found stated that non-magic users and non-psionics could NOT. (see my last post for the quoted text). I think we resolved that just because a TW device has a PPE clip/battery that doesn't mean anyone can use them. It is highly possible that there is something I overlooked in RUE. Thanks!

It is not a default they can. It is an option in the creation guide to design one that allows it. A stock TW item still needs to say it can be used by any one.

Page 131 RUE
Moreover, if the device itself is able to store its own P.P.E., the device can be made to function even for a non-psychic/non-mage, if the Techno-Wizard wants it to, at no additional cost.
(emphasis mine)
Not standard every one can use it but as an option at creation of new devices. There have always been TW items that could be used by any one but they are special cases not a rule.
So there is no reason to assume that any TW that does not tell us anyone can use it, can be used by anyone.

Note on stormspire-A PPE clip powered device is not storing its own energy so that clause as written does not apply. A gm could decide to allow a TW to make an item powered by a PPE clip able to be used by anyone

[Killer Cyborg]

Page 131 RUE
Moreover, if the device itself is able to store its own P.P.E., the device can be made to function even for a non-psychic/non-mage, if the Techno-Wizard wants it to, at no additional cost.
(emphasis mine)
Not standard every one can use it but as an option at creation of new devices. There have always been TW items that could be used by any one but they are special cases not a rule.
So there is no reason to assume that any TW that does not tell us anyone can use it, can be used by anyone.

Note on stormspire-A PPE clip powered device is not storing its own energy so that clause as written does not apply. A gm could decide to allow a TW to make an item powered by a PPE clip able to be used by anyone

Good point. I'd forgotten the exact phrasing, and you're right that the Stormspire weapons don't actually store their own PPE, so they're not technically included in this rule.
Like you, I don't see any problem with a GM allowing special Stormspire weapons to be made that have the same principle, but technically it wouldn't be covered by this rule.

[Shark_Force]

practically speaking, a clip is part of the weapon (specifically, the more proper name is a detachable box magazine - note that it is detachable, not attachable, meaning it is being defined as part of the weapon that can be detached, not a separate object that can be attached).

or, to put it another way, the swords to snakes spell transforms various objects (including a variety of lighter weapons, such as most laser pistols) into snakes. i expect you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would rule that the clip is a separate target from the pistol. if you transform the pistol, the clip goes with it, because it is part of the weapon.

not to mention that the light blade is also gaining PPE from an external source, and can be used by anyone just fine because it's made that way.

yes, it is a detachable part of the weapon. so are most parts of a gun, if you have the right tools.

[Blue_Lion]

practically speaking, a clip is part of the weapon (specifically, the more proper name is a detachable box magazine - note that it is detachable, not attachable, meaning it is being defined as part of the weapon that can be detached, not a separate object that can be attached).

or, to put it another way, the swords to snakes spell transforms various objects (including a variety of lighter weapons, such as most laser pistols) into snakes. i expect you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would rule that the clip is a separate target from the pistol. if you transform the pistol, the clip goes with it, because it is part of the weapon.

not to mention that the light blade is also gaining PPE from an external source, and can be used by anyone just fine because it's made that way.

yes, it is a detachable part of the weapon. so are most parts of a gun, if you have the right tools.

Technically speaking the PPE clip is not called a ppe clip that is a nick name. And a normal clip is not part of the gun. It is a separate item loaded in the gun. Making up random definitions with no sorce is a poor way to debate a point.


In the US army a magazine is not called a clip, a clip is a strip of mettle that rounds come attached on to feed into a magazine.

A magic power cell may look like a clip but it is described as a separate TW item, in the storm spire inventory. It is not a integrated part of the weapon but a interchangeable part of it, so practically speaking it is not part of the weapon. It is not even needed to use the weapon, so its use in PPE weapons is optional.

And by the way that is not the dictionary definition of clip.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clip

: a device to hold cartridges for charging the magazines of some rifles
also : a magazine from which ammunition is fed into the chamber of a firearm

[eliakon]

practically speaking, a clip is part of the weapon (specifically, the more proper name is a detachable box magazine - note that it is detachable, not attachable, meaning it is being defined as part of the weapon that can be detached, not a separate object that can be attached).

or, to put it another way, the swords to snakes spell transforms various objects (including a variety of lighter weapons, such as most laser pistols) into snakes. i expect you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would rule that the clip is a separate target from the pistol. if you transform the pistol, the clip goes with it, because it is part of the weapon.

not to mention that the light blade is also gaining PPE from an external source, and can be used by anyone just fine because it's made that way.

yes, it is a detachable part of the weapon. so are most parts of a gun, if you have the right tools.

Technically speaking the PPE clip is not called a ppe clip that is a nick name. And a normal clip is not part of the gun. It is a separate item loaded in the gun. Making up random definitions with no sorce is a poor way to debate a point.

Actually you are BOTH wrong.
Unless you have a canon citation on this you are BOTH making an inference.
And thus you are simply providing what your personal headcanon is.

In the US army a magazine is not called a clip, a clip is a strip of mettle that rounds come attached on to feed into a magazine.

That is true... but since magazines for energy weapons in this game have the proper term of "energy clip"... that is not relevant

A magic power cell may look like a clip but it is described as a separate TW item, in the storm spire inventory. It is not a integrated part of the weapon but a interchangeable part of it, so practically speaking it is not part of the weapon. It is not even needed to use the weapon, so its use in PPE weapons is optional.

E-clips are sold and listed separately from energy weapons, and yet that does not mean that they are not a part of the weapon for magical purposes (the swords to snakes spell for example)

And by the way that is not the dictionary definition of clip.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clip

: a device to hold cartridges for charging the magazines of some rifles
also : a magazine from which ammunition is fed into the chamber of a firearm

The dictionary definition is utterly and totally irelevant though. Since Palladium has defiend the magazines used by energy weapons (and TW weapons are energy weapons!) as "clips" or "e-clips"
Thus in Palladium the word 'clip' has an internal definition different than the dictionary. Which is good, because if we tried to use the Dictionary to define all the terms in the game we would not have a game! After all, vampires are described as not existing, so is Zeus, and Atlantis, and magic, and...

[Blue_Lion]

practically speaking, a clip is part of the weapon (specifically, the more proper name is a detachable box magazine - note that it is detachable, not attachable, meaning it is being defined as part of the weapon that can be detached, not a separate object that can be attached).

or, to put it another way, the swords to snakes spell transforms various objects (including a variety of lighter weapons, such as most laser pistols) into snakes. i expect you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would rule that the clip is a separate target from the pistol. if you transform the pistol, the clip goes with it, because it is part of the weapon.

not to mention that the light blade is also gaining PPE from an external source, and can be used by anyone just fine because it's made that way.

yes, it is a detachable part of the weapon. so are most parts of a gun, if you have the right tools.

Technically speaking the PPE clip is not called a ppe clip that is a nick name. And a normal clip is not part of the gun. It is a separate item loaded in the gun. Making up random definitions with no sorce is a poor way to debate a point.

Actually you are BOTH wrong.
Unless you have a canon citation on this you are BOTH making an inference.
And thus you are simply providing what your personal headcanon is.

In the US army a magazine is not called a clip, a clip is a strip of mettle that rounds come attached on to feed into a magazine.

That is true... but since magazines for energy weapons in this game have the proper term of "energy clip"... that is not relevant

A magic power cell may look like a clip but it is described as a separate TW item, in the storm spire inventory. It is not a integrated part of the weapon but a interchangeable part of it, so practically speaking it is not part of the weapon. It is not even needed to use the weapon, so its use in PPE weapons is optional.

E-clips are sold and listed separately from energy weapons, and yet that does not mean that they are not a part of the weapon for magical purposes (the swords to snakes spell for example)

And by the way that is not the dictionary definition of clip.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clip

: a device to hold cartridges for charging the magazines of some rifles
also : a magazine from which ammunition is fed into the chamber of a firearm

The dictionary definition is utterly and totally irelevant though. Since Palladium has defiend the magazines used by energy weapons (and TW weapons are energy weapons!) as "clips" or "e-clips"
Thus in Palladium the word 'clip' has an internal definition different than the dictionary. Which is good, because if we tried to use the Dictionary to define all the terms in t"he game we would not have a game! After all, vampires are described as not existing, so is Zeus, and Atlantis, and magic, and...

I had already quoted the section on the book that called it a mystic power cell earlier. So I what I said about its name had already been cited.
Wait how does PB define clip where.
I could have sworn ty where using it as the also-a magazine from which ammunition is fed into the chamber of a fire arm. A e-clip is a magazine from which they munition is fed into the "chamber" of a energy weapon.(so they are fallowing the dictionary definition just changed it from physical ammo to energy when they denote it as a e-clip.)

Just because you put a clip in something does not make it part of it for magical intent. In this case the device has to store its own power.

A device powered by interchangable clips is not storing its own power, but requires you to put something in to power it. If the battery was built in and charged while in the device then it would be storing its own power. But that is not the case so the magical power cell (PPE clip) is not the device storing its own power but you putting something in it to power it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Thank you for the RUE page number. I missed that in my reading on the subject.

I have thought of another problem with draining the Stromspire PPE clips; we have no idea how much PPE it takes to recharge one, so how can we know how much we can siphon from them? FoM states that the weapons can be powered by personal PPE at the rate of 10 PPE per shot for pistols and 20 PPE per shot for rifles, however, not all the weapons have the same payload per clip. So we can't use this as a reference.
The Knights of the White Rose can recharge the PPE clips for 60 PPE, so we might use that as the reference, but that seems to be both not enough and too much for powering some of these weapons.

I found one more intersting note on PPE clips, in Seige on Tolkeen book 1: it notes that any mage who knows the Talisman spell can recharge PPE clips, in addition to TW's being innately able to channel PPE into them. page 57/58

[Curbludgeon]

Like TW weapons, anyone with sufficient P.P.E. or I.S.P. can use the (Eco-Wizardry) device, and anyone can use the weapon when on a ley line.

Is there a good equivalent quote that anyone knows off-hand? The closest I can think of is Manoan weapons, but those require a stone pyramid (or TW) to recharge.

[Axelmania]

Here's an interesting inquiry. For those with lots of MDC who can take their time fighting entities in close range and who do not need high damage magic against them, but need SOME kind of TW weapon to beat them...

What is the cheapest option for the non-psychic/non-mage?

[shadrak]

Thanks for the input on this topic. I guess I wrongly assumed that anyone could use a TW weapon/device if it had a PPE clip/battery. I then went back to RUE (in the initial description of the Techno-Wizard) and read "People who are not psychic or mystically oriented can not operate the devices at all". It goes on to explain than non-magic/psionics are actually baffled by them. So, apparently it takes more than just a reserve of personal PPE/ISP to operate TW creations. So, that being resolved, what if any magic weapons or items can be used by non-magic users? The weapons and items in the Book of Magic all seem to be pretty high powered. The amulates did catch my attention as an option but there are no prices listed for them. It also isn't clear to me if they only have a certain number of uses. As written, it seems like they can be used at any time and don't deplete (unless I am missing something). And what if I don't want to introduce Rune Weapons just yet (seems a bit high powered)? What are some options for low-powered magic weapons for the non-magic/psionic character? Is there an equivalent to the ubiquitous +1 sword, for example? Again, thanks for all the great feedback!

Generally people who are not psychic or magically inclined cannot use them, but I believe there are some official rifter articles or it might Arzno where the defense forces break down into a quite a few headhunters and TW weapons are among the standard issue weapons...this would imply that either a significant portion of those headhunters are psychic (well beyond the Rifts norm) or that somehow non-mage/non-psychic characters can operate some devices. In the second case, it might be that the headhunter is not psychic or a mage but has a rough understanding of magic/lore:magic/high PPE. After all, what is the "high PPE" that is necessary to operate a device?

It would also seem unusual that a TW device could operate passively without a mage/psychic intervention (landmine, grenade, electrical generator, water purification unit, engine, etc.) and that a similar device could not be built that could allow a non-mange to activate it by a non-magical/mechanical means.

[Blue_Lion]

Thanks for the input on this topic. I guess I wrongly assumed that anyone could use a TW weapon/device if it had a PPE clip/battery. I then went back to RUE (in the initial description of the Techno-Wizard) and read "People who are not psychic or mystically oriented can not operate the devices at all". It goes on to explain than non-magic/psionics are actually baffled by them. So, apparently it takes more than just a reserve of personal PPE/ISP to operate TW creations. So, that being resolved, what if any magic weapons or items can be used by non-magic users? The weapons and items in the Book of Magic all seem to be pretty high powered. The amulates did catch my attention as an option but there are no prices listed for them. It also isn't clear to me if they only have a certain number of uses. As written, it seems like they can be used at any time and don't deplete (unless I am missing something). And what if I don't want to introduce Rune Weapons just yet (seems a bit high powered)? What are some options for low-powered magic weapons for the non-magic/psionic character? Is there an equivalent to the ubiquitous +1 sword, for example? Again, thanks for all the great feedback!

Generally people who are not psychic or magically inclined cannot use them, but I believe there are some official rifter articles or it might Arzno where the defense forces break down into a quite a few headhunters and TW weapons are among the standard issue weapons...this would imply that either a significant portion of those headhunters are psychic (well beyond the Rifts norm) or that somehow non-mage/non-psychic characters can operate some devices. In the second case, it might be that the headhunter is not psychic or a mage but has a rough understanding of magic/lore:magic/high PPE. After all, what is the "high PPE" that is necessary to operate a device?

It would also seem unusual that a TW device could operate passively without a mage/psychic intervention (landmine, grenade, electrical generator, water purification unit, engine, etc.) and that a similar device could not be built that could allow a non-mange to activate it by a non-magical/mechanical means.

It is the rule that people that grow up using TW may retain the ability to use it. This was added in new west if I recall right then modified in anzo to a higher %.

[Sohisohi]

Yes, but I'd only suggest specialized items and weapons for non-magic/psi.

Maybe items like a pan that heats itself for cooking or something and the like,
a specialized weapon like the TW Bug Zapper (if I recall) which is a gun that does double damage to Xiticix and +1 or +2d6 damage to all other bug beings,
and magic weapons are just a general good weapon for dealing with any and every paranormal or supernatural threat.

[shadrak]

Thanks for the input on this topic. I guess I wrongly assumed that anyone could use a TW weapon/device if it had a PPE clip/battery. I then went back to RUE (in the initial description of the Techno-Wizard) and read "People who are not psychic or mystically oriented can not operate the devices at all". It goes on to explain than non-magic/psionics are actually baffled by them. So, apparently it takes more than just a reserve of personal PPE/ISP to operate TW creations. So, that being resolved, what if any magic weapons or items can be used by non-magic users? The weapons and items in the Book of Magic all seem to be pretty high powered. The amulates did catch my attention as an option but there are no prices listed for them. It also isn't clear to me if they only have a certain number of uses. As written, it seems like they can be used at any time and don't deplete (unless I am missing something). And what if I don't want to introduce Rune Weapons just yet (seems a bit high powered)? What are some options for low-powered magic weapons for the non-magic/psionic character? Is there an equivalent to the ubiquitous +1 sword, for example? Again, thanks for all the great feedback!

Generally people who are not psychic or magically inclined cannot use them, but I believe there are some official rifter articles or it might Arzno where the defense forces break down into a quite a few headhunters and TW weapons are among the standard issue weapons...this would imply that either a significant portion of those headhunters are psychic (well beyond the Rifts norm) or that somehow non-mage/non-psychic characters can operate some devices. In the second case, it might be that the headhunter is not psychic or a mage but has a rough understanding of magic/lore:magic/high PPE. After all, what is the "high PPE" that is necessary to operate a device?

It would also seem unusual that a TW device could operate passively without a mage/psychic intervention (landmine, grenade, electrical generator, water purification unit, engine, etc.) and that a similar device could not be built that could allow a non-mange to activate it by a non-magical/mechanical means.

It is the rule that people that grow up using TW may retain the ability to use it. This was added in new west if I recall right then modified in anzo to a higher %.

There you go!

You don't have to be a mage or psychic, you just need intimate familiarity!

For most non-Coalition PCs, the back story often allows for this...

But previous issues with TW weapons (cost, limited ammunition for non-psychics/mages) still pose a problem...

While the canon allows for psychics to readily use TW devices, I generally penalize Coalition psychics that use TW at least early on in their careers...

In Secrets of the Coalition States: Heroes of Humanity page 64 talks about Dead Boys using TW devices. Perhaps this is meant to be only psychic Dead Boys, but it isn't clear in the text.

I would also house rule it to some extent based on the alieness of the TW device. It it looks like an assault rifle, has a safety and trigger and uses PPE clips like a normal magazine, I would be more apt to allow a non-mage to use it than a weapon that required an intuitive mental connection to trigger the mechanism.

[Shorty Lickens]

if you dont have any aversion to carrying those fairy batteries, then fine.