Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore stances

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Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore stances

Unread post by Axelmania »

I am making a separate topic for something which came up in a thread on a different topic to avoid derailing it further. I think it valuable to re-explain points clearly from the start, so I re-wrote them, and in the process noticed additional details I think are worth analyzing.

These involve my concerns with Erin Tarn's 30 April 101 PA letter titled "Vampires and Water", which includes an equal-sized title "Vampire Legends" which has no separate date, and appears before the 3 May 101 PA "Juarez Mexico" letter, leading me to conclude it was included as part of the April 30th letter.

Page 147 of Rifts Africa defines Erin Tarn as part of the Gathering of Heroes (103 PA) as having "demon & monster lore" at 98% by 14th level. This includes her 5% IQ bonus. Since it is 25% +5% / level, she could not have learned this at level 12, because even with the +20% bonus Scholars got to Technical skills (RMB pg 80) it would only be at 60%/65% (depending on whether you counted 1st level as getting the per-level bonus) at 14. It could not have been at level 9 either, as 3 more levels would only bring that up to 75/80%. It could not have been at level 6 either, as 3 more would only bring that to 90/95. So we know that Erin Tarn must have selected this skill either at 1st level or 3rd level. Level 3 would mean 105/110 by 14 (capped down to 98) or 90/95 by level 11. Even using the lesser number this would guarantee her 95% by level 12, 98% by level 13.

Keep that in mind, when estimating what experience level she might have been in 101 PA compared to level 14 in 103PA. Also keep in mind that she did not experience 2 years between these dates. According to Rifts England page 6, her letter in May 103 PA:
    "only six months have passed for me since the spring of 101 PA"

Someone who is 14th level at 64 years old would probably not be very many levels lower at 63.5 years old, no matter how fantastic the adventures she had in Wormwood/England prior to visiting Africa. I think we can realistically expect that Tarn had a rather competent skill level, as even if she had been 10th level 6 months prior, she would still have a minimum of 85% skill in Demon/Monster Lore.

Page 39, Vampire Kingdoms, July 1991
    The following enumerated facts (?) are about true vampires and are universally agreed upon by the residents along the Rio Grande.
    1. Vampires stalk at night and sleep by day.
    2. The light of day will turn a vampire to dust.
    3. Water will hold at bay, hurt and even destroy a vampire.
    4. A wooden or silver stake, driven through the heart, will kill a vampire. A wooden arrow or silver bullet will hurt or kill them.
    5. Vampires are impervious to all other types of weapons, including particle beam weapons, rail guns, and explosives (I find this difficult to believe).
    6. Vampires can metamorph into the shape of a bat, wolf, or mist.
    7. Vampires posses superhuman strength.
    8. Vampires can regenerate entire limbs overnight.
    9. Vampires feed on humanoid blood. Animal blood cannot be substituted.
    10. The victim of a vampire is cursed to walk the earth as an undead until slain.
    11. Vampires are always evil and savage monsters.
    12. The purest heart is not safe from a vampire.

Page 7, Vampire Kingdoms New Revised Edition, August 2011
    The following enumerated beliefs are accepted as facts by the residents along the Rio Grande.
    1. Vampires stalk at night and sleep by day.
    2. The light of day is agony to a vampire and turns them to dust.
    3. Vampires cannot cross moving water and if forced into its embrace it can destroy vampires.
    4. A wooden or silver stake, driven through the heart kills a vampire. A wooden arrow or silver bullet can also hurt and kill them.
    5. Vampires are impervious to all other types of weapons, including particle beam weapons, lasers, rail guns, and explosives.
    6. Vampires can "metamorph" into the shape of a bat, wolf, or mist.
    7. Vampires possess Supernatural Strength.
    8. Vampires can regenerate entire limbs overnight.
    9. Vampires feed on humanoid blood. Animal blood cannot be substituted.
    10. The victims of vampires are cursed to walk the earth as the undead until slain.
    11. The undead, though once human, are demons when they are reborn as vampires.
    12. Vampires are always evil and savage monsters.
    13. Even the purest hearts and men of the cloth are not safe from a vampire.
    14. Vampires never age and are said to be immortal.

I have redded in the 1st list the things which Kevin Siembieda removed in the 2nd list, and also redded in the 2nd list the things which Kevin Siembieda removed in the 1st list.

Evaluation of details in these lists from "random" to "conspicuous" can be done in two ways. Irrespective analysis would be how items on a list stand out in relation to other items on the same list. Respective analysis would be how items in the list were changed between one and the other.

Irrespective analysis for 1991 version
    A) Tarn opted to place a question mark next to "facts" preceding the list, despite acknowledging UNIVERSAL agreement of the inhabitants. She also places "true" before vampires when introducing the list. This emphasizes that Tarn is aware of other creatures who are called vampires which differ from these. This only serves to emphasize how informed she is about the subject matter.
    B) In item 3, Tarn mentions WATER (not running water) being able to kill vampires, even though ONLY running water could kill them. If inhabitants were wrong about this (low Lore) she could have supplemented that information with her own knowledge.
    C) In item 4, Tarn also does not correct the misconception that a stake to the heart will kill vampires. Someone skilled in Lore pertaining to them (this is the very Lore skill that Atlantean Undead Slayers have, at a LOWER percentage than Tarn) should know that it only puts them into suspended animation.
    D) In item 5, Tarn adds a parenthesized (I find this hard to believe) following her statements. She does not do this for the other 11 items. This ties back to "facts (?)" preceding the list. Item 5 is a list of 3 things which Rio Grande residents universally accept that vampires are impervious to, according to Tarn. Tarn expresses no difficulty at believing any of the other 11 items, to reiterate. Even things which are false, while it is TRUE that vampires are impervious to these 3 things.
    E) In item 10, Tarn does not explain that ONLY the victims of Slow Kill are actually cursed to walk the earth as undead. Her statement is broad, and "victims" makes it sounds like ANYONE bitten by a vampire, or even hypnotized by them, are guaranteed vampires-to-be.
    F) In item 11, Tarn does not correct the misconception about all vampires being evil. Page 14 clearly states that Secondaries can be "unprincipled good" and page 14 even allows Wilds to be anarchist.

Respective analysis between 1991 and 2011 versions:
    G) Siembieda changes "facts (?)" to "beliefs .. accepted as facts". I don't view this as a major change, as in either case Tarn's presentation of the list is worded in a way which calls it into doubt. This is not an honest thing to do if you know otherwise, as someone of her Lore proficiency should.
    H) "about true vampires" was removed, either removing the idea that Tarn is aware of non-True vampires, or implying she does not wish to inform people of them
    I) "universally agreed upon" was removed. This paints Tarn as more neutral, and more justified in questioning what she hears, in the revised edition.
    J) Item 2: "is agony" is added to the light>dust statement. This might be to invoke sympathy for them, since the conjunction she chooses is "and" rather than "then". She doesn't actually point out that they aren't INSTANTLY turned into dust, and that it could take some critical time in which they could still harm you, or escape.
    K) Item 3: "moving" is added before water. This makes her appear more honest in 2011 than in 1991, but also MORE COMPETENT.
    L) Item 4: "will" is changed to "can" when describing wooden arrows and silver bullets' capacity to "hurt and kill them". Tarn still insists that stakes (or Warrows/Sbullets) to the heart kill vampires, despite appearing to be more informed or honest on other matters.
    M) Item 5 removes the parenthesized "hard to believe" and adds "lasers". Like K) this makes Tarn appear more knowledgeable (added example) and impartial (not snubbing that particular rumor
    N) Item 6 puts the word "metamorph" in quotations in the revised version. No ideas on this one.
    O) Item 7: -superhuman strength- becomes -Supernatural Strength-. It's like Tarn's been reading a game manual.
    P) Item 10: singular>plural, doesn't seem important.
    Q) Items 11 and 12 are moved to become 12 and 13
    R) The new item 11 has Tarn communicate that vampires are demons (absent in her original list) which makes her appear more knowledgeable and honest, like amendments K/M to Items 5/6. However this makes the non-removed falsehoods identified in E/F for 10 and 11>12 (that all vampire victims become vampires, that all vampires are evil) even more suspect.
    S) This new 13th point (in position 12) uses the phrase "once human", which implies that only humans become vampire-demons when attacked by them.
    T) The addition of "men of the cloth" to "purest hearts". No comment.
    U) the addition of a 14th point about vampires not aging. Tarn's lack of disagreement with this (although per point G, she still refuses to call the list "facts" unmodified) like K/M/R, makes her seem honest and knowledgeable, and contrasts further with the misleading statements of 10/12 (previously 10/11) highlighted in E/F above.

Page 32 of Rifts Main Book under Lore: Demons & Monsters (not that book consistently abbreviates this to Lore: Demon)
    It includes the beliefs of ancient and primitive cultures, as well as documentation in the modern Rifts world regarding demons, vampires, possession .. and the study of legendary and known supernatural beings, including their known habits, appearance, weaknesses, strengths, powers, and abilities.

Page 324 of Rifts Ultimate Edition under Lore: Demons & Monsters
    General knowledge includes .. the myths and legends of vampires .. Specific knowledge is limited to the continent where the character lives/originates

Lore: Vampires (introduced in Nightbane) does not appear to have been imported into Rifts in 2005 with Ultimate Edition, the 2011 revised edition of VK is the earliest I can find it in Rifts. It is unclear if this is meant to retcon Lore: Demons into not having this knowledge. I can't actually find the skill defined in this book, but it appears on page 33 for the intelligence and page 60 for the Hero Vampire (an addition to Secondary, implying Secondaries normally lack the skill). Page 108 the Vampire Hunter specifies "beyond the parameters of Lore: Vampires" and page 109 defines the % for them as well as listing a lower percentage for people not trained as vampires, which presumably is a very roundabout way of making it available as a technical skill.

THAT skill has a base 20, lower than Lore: Demons base 25. There wouldn't be incentive for people to select it if Lore: Demons included all of that knowledge, so I'm wondering if there was an unclarified intent for this to divorce all vampire knowledge from Lore: Demons, which would be strange considering the addition of a new item on the list where Tarn goes out of her way to state that vampires are demons.

Two items on 109 stand out as potentially illustrative here:
    separating truth from fantasy,
    their true powers

RUE 325 refers to "known powers" then "powers" again for some reason, but never "true powers" so what this may imply is that Lore includes knowledge of "fake powers" of vampires too. For example: vampires are able to breathe fire, and are able to bend leylines at a glance.

While this in no way redeems 1990s Tarn, it could be an aspect of Siembieda's clear efforts to redeem 2010s Tarn, since she has never been listed as having Lore: Vampires, only Lore: Demons (& Monsters). From this perspective, Lore: Demons know very little, they just collect rumors but have no ability to discern useful information from them, while someone with Lore: Vampires has more specific knowledge which DOES allow them to discern useful information from them.

If that is the case, and Tarn really is that ignorant, then I can't fault the 2011 version (14 items) for lacking disclaimers. Tarn is a noob who doesn't know what is real, and she probably would've died if she had chosen to travel by land through Mexico instead of Rifting there. Even being diverted to Wormwood was probably the safer route.

The 1991 version (12 items) is still a problem for her, and some of the alteration by Siembieda to her letter show this, if only because of the sole point that she chooses to single out item 5 (the truth) for doubt, but not the other 11, included 2 falsehoods, which went unmolested.

To give Tarn (particularly the 1991 version) the benefit of the doubt and keep her a beacon of goodness and friend to humanity as some wish to see her, requires understanding that Lore: Demon MUST have HUGE limitations to justify such a viewpoint, not just for vampires, but for anything covered under it, in terms of "I heard stories that maybe" v "I know for certain" levels of knowledge.

This would be important for realistically roleplaying people who have this skill and avoiding metagaming. Even with experience fighting vampires, it wouldn't necessarily be realistic for characters to learn from it quickly, since the terror of fighting the supernatural could make recollecting clearly difficult.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Shark_Force »

i think the key problem here is that you're starting with the wrong assumption about what this skill does.

Lore: "a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject or held by a particular group, typically passed from person to person by word of mouth"

lore doesn't necessarily give you accurate information. it is the study of stories and beliefs, not an in-depth rigorous scientific study detailing every piece of information on something. it includes modern beliefs and stories, but it is still ultimately modern beliefs and stories, not concrete knowledge resulting from extensively documented, cross-examined, peer-reviewed testing.

for example, it says: "This is the study of demonic creatures and supernatural monster lore throughout the ages and around the world. It includes the beliefs of ancient and primitive cultures, as well as documentation in the modern Rifts world..." (that last one being documentation of current beliefs and stories; it is not a documentation of modern rifts creatures exact scientifically-researched abilities any more than the documented material about ancient and primitive cultures is).

note that even where it says "...the study of legendary and known supernatural beings, including their known habits, appearance, weaknesses, strengths, powers, and abilities..." it actually specifies the *known* habits, appearance, etc.

so basically, erin tarn saying "this is what everyone believes about vampires" is in fact a perfectly reasonable example of the lore skill being used, because it doesn't give you perfectly accurate information about demons and monsters; it tells you about the lore, stories, and commonly held beliefs about them (some of which will be accurate, some of which will not be). tarn would only be demonstrably lying if she told us things that are not commonly held beliefs about vampires.

i mean, considering: "The master of demon lore may be able to identify a particular type of monster by hearing its description or a description of its actions, seeing a drawing or photograph or footprint, or by how it acted, killed, or exhibited certain abilities."

if masters of the skill only *may* be able to ID the monster given a photograph, then quite frankly that should be telling you something about the limitations of the skill.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by eliakon »

Shark_Force wrote:i think the key problem here is that you're starting with the wrong assumption about what this skill does.

Lore: "a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject or held by a particular group, typically passed from person to person by word of mouth"

lore doesn't necessarily give you accurate information. it is the study of stories and beliefs, not an in-depth rigorous scientific study detailing every piece of information on something. it includes modern beliefs and stories, but it is still ultimately modern beliefs and stories, not concrete knowledge resulting from extensively documented, cross-examined, peer-reviewed testing.

for example, it says: "This is the study of demonic creatures and supernatural monster lore throughout the ages and around the world. It includes the beliefs of ancient and primitive cultures, as well as documentation in the modern Rifts world..." (that last one being documentation of current beliefs and stories; it is not a documentation of modern rifts creatures exact scientifically-researched abilities any more than the documented material about ancient and primitive cultures is).

note that even where it says "...the study of legendary and known supernatural beings, including their known habits, appearance, weaknesses, strengths, powers, and abilities..." it actually specifies the *known* habits, appearance, etc.

so basically, erin tarn saying "this is what everyone believes about vampires" is in fact a perfectly reasonable example of the lore skill being used, because it doesn't give you perfectly accurate information about demons and monsters; it tells you about the lore, stories, and commonly held beliefs about them (some of which will be accurate, some of which will not be). tarn would only be demonstrably lying if she told us things that are not commonly held beliefs about vampires.

i mean, considering: "The master of demon lore may be able to identify a particular type of monster by hearing its description or a description of its actions, seeing a drawing or photograph or footprint, or by how it acted, killed, or exhibited certain abilities."

if masters of the skill only *may* be able to ID the monster given a photograph, then quite frankly that should be telling you something about the limitations of the skill.

What he said and more.
I would point out that this is a "lore" skill. A technical skill.
It is NOT a scientific skill. This is not "Demonology" or "Crytpozoology" or "Thanatology" or any other 'ology' skill.
It is not a detailed, rigorus science, but simply a collection of stories, myths, best practices, old wives tales, personal accedotes, and general supposition on a subject.

For a good contrast compare the skill "Lore Magic" with the skill "Principles of Magic"
While Lore Magic will tell you a general idea of something (maybe) it will NOT allow you to postively identify a spell, nor research it from first principles, nor tell you the exact specifications of a spell. Things that you could do with Principles of Magic though.

Lore Native American and Anthroplogy is another good example
or Lore Cattle vs Biology or Zoology

I could go on and on but the basics are the same. Lore is not a detailed, scientific skill. That is why it is a technical lore, and not a Science -ology.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

basically the Lore skills mean you know a lot of the rumors, legends, myths, and "well a friend of a friend" stories about a given topic/type of being.
so the real info (the game mechanics) get lost in there with all the old romanian tales, everything that hollywood ever said about vamps, etc.

a higher percentage just means you are better at sorting out the good info from the chaff. and a bad roll means you made the wrong conclusions.. just hope it is "actually vampires can go into sunlight, they just sparkle" rather than "actually, vampires don't have the ability to mind control people"
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Axelmania »

Shark_Force wrote:i think the key problem here is that you're starting with the wrong assumption about what this skill does.

I think my assumption about what the skill does is pretty on-par with how most people would play it, to justify knowing things about monsters. I've already pointed out though that the contrast between Lore: Demons in RUE and Lore: Vampires in VKR does contradict my assumption.

That said, Tarn not having accurate doesn't explain the singling-out of item 5 in the original.

eliakon wrote:It is NOT a scientific skill. This is not "Demonology" or "Crytpozoology" or "Thanatology" or any other 'ology' skill.

I want skills like these. I'd figure someone like Angel of Death who operates on Brodkil would have something along these lines.

glitterboy2098 wrote:basically the Lore skills mean you know a lot of the rumors, legends, myths, and "well a friend of a friend" stories about a given topic/type of being.
so the real info (the game mechanics) get lost in there with all the old romanian tales, everything that hollywood ever said about vamps, etc.

That reflects Lore: Demon's info on vampires, but Lore: Vampires (probably due to being a narrow specialty) is explicitly more accurate than this.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Hotrod »

In the absence of technical, scientific skills on demon/monster capabilities, its technical lore counterpart seems reasonable to me as a surrogate. Doc Reid has that Lore skill and could be considered the world's foremost expert on the subject.

In a gaming scenario, the Lore skill seems to have two primary functions. First, it allows a player to justify his character knowing something about a demon/monster that the player knows or can look up. Second, it provides a mechanic for the GM to decide whether or not to inform the player and player character about something significant that could affect the player's in-character decisions.

Neither of these applications make much difference to NPCs, because NPCs serve different functions. They're a tool for the author to help set the stage of the setting, and/or they're characters for the GM to use in an adventure. In both cases, what the books/GM present is what matters; the specific skill values are meant to assist in describing and using the NPC.

Authors frequently cheat and make up their own rules as they make NPCs in order to create characters that fulfill the desired role within a given setting/adventure. They routinely bump attributes to highly unlikely levels, select skills/abilities that aren't allowed for the given OCC/RCC, and give the NPC unique equipment or perks that player characters can't have. Additionally, it's common for NPCs to have knowledge or knowledge gaps that aren't reflected in their stats. As long as these discrepancies serve to enrich the story, setting, or adventure, this is a good thing.

As NPC builds go, Erin Tarn is actually pretty reasonable. While her mental stats are unlikely, this is justifiable given her unique reputation and background. The magic items and equipment she has are within the achievable range and aren't overpowered. Her skills are all within the bounds of what a Rogue Scholar does. I'll give Kevin this much: the concept of an ordinary human of no special power achieving such a titanic reputation via being an author in the context of a setting like Rifts is kind of awesome. She represents an ideal of multiculturalism.

Where Erin Tarn fails as an NPC for me is her perspective-armor. Her perspective is so closely aligned to Kevin's that it's difficult at times to distinguish between her narrative voice and Kevin's. Aftermath's world information section is a particularly egregious example of this. Tarn's perspective shouldn't be inerrant; she should make mistakes, and those mistakes shouldn't be swept under the rug with lampshading excuses like "that was an unauthorized manuscript/letter" or retroactive corrections. The setting would be far stronger for me if it gave comparable attention to alternate perspectives and voices. It's possible to make a strong, sympathetic, and even moral case against the broad acceptance of Debees, but this perspective is generally conflated with the quasi-Nazi undertones of the Coalition.

Kevin once told me, "there are no utopias in Rifts." I'd love to see him apply that mantra in a sourcebook on Lazlo.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by eliakon »

Hotrod wrote:Kevin once told me, "there are no utopias in Rifts." I'd love to see him apply that mantra in a sourcebook on Lazlo.

Which is why the Lazlo sourcebook will never come out :lol:
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:i think the key problem here is that you're starting with the wrong assumption about what this skill does.

I think my assumption about what the skill does is pretty on-par with how most people would play it, to justify knowing things about monsters. I've already pointed out though that the contrast between Lore: Demons in RUE and Lore: Vampires in VKR does contradict my assumption.

That said, Tarn not having accurate doesn't explain the singling-out of item 5 in the original.

eliakon wrote:It is NOT a scientific skill. This is not "Demonology" or "Crytpozoology" or "Thanatology" or any other 'ology' skill.

I want skills like these. I'd figure someone like Angel of Death who operates on Brodkil would have something along these lines.

glitterboy2098 wrote:basically the Lore skills mean you know a lot of the rumors, legends, myths, and "well a friend of a friend" stories about a given topic/type of being.
so the real info (the game mechanics) get lost in there with all the old romanian tales, everything that hollywood ever said about vamps, etc.

That reflects Lore: Demon's info on vampires, but Lore: Vampires (probably due to being a narrow specialty) is explicitly more accurate than this.

I think your assumption is in conflict with the skill description. The skill is a study of stories and history of monsters and demons. Lore is often passed on by word of mouth(stories).

Specific knowledge is limited to monster common in the area the charter is from.
So unless she was from an area where vampires are common she would only have stories. Even if she was her information would come in the form of stories. As her skill is not 100% some of her may be wrong. She might also might doubt stories that are true, this is a study of lore/stories not physical study.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Eagle »

I would say she's limited to information she could reasonably know. Anything completely outside her experience would be unknown to her.

So let's say she's got Demon and Monster lore at 98%. That doesn't mean she knows anything about Chinese monsters if she's never been to China. That information is simply unavailable to her. Now, if she ever does visit China, since she has that lore skill, after a period of adjustment she will quickly learn all there is to learn about those creatures. After what amounts to completing the GM's story arc, she'll then be able to use her full skill roll.

Her statements about vampires would have been made during this period of adjustment. At that time, she was learning the lore appropriate to the area, but she was not convinced of its accuracy. Very few monsters have the kinds of immunities that vampires do, and so her doubt is entirely reasonable.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Hotrod »

eliakon wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Kevin once told me, "there are no utopias in Rifts." I'd love to see him apply that mantra in a sourcebook on Lazlo.

Which is why the Lazlo sourcebook will never come out :lol:


I'm not so sure; Kevin said that in response to my observation that Lazlo seems to be presented as a utopia.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by eliakon »

Eagle wrote:I would say she's limited to information she could reasonably know. Anything completely outside her experience would be unknown to her.

So let's say she's got Demon and Monster lore at 98%. That doesn't mean she knows anything about Chinese monsters if she's never been to China. That information is simply unavailable to her. Now, if she ever does visit China, since she has that lore skill, after a period of adjustment she will quickly learn all there is to learn about those creatures. After what amounts to completing the GM's story arc, she'll then be able to use her full skill roll.

Her statements about vampires would have been made during this period of adjustment. At that time, she was learning the lore appropriate to the area, but she was not convinced of its accuracy. Very few monsters have the kinds of immunities that vampires do, and so her doubt is entirely reasonable.

The China situation is also a perfect example of why there are skill penalties in the game.
So rolling against your Demon and Monster lore skill for an obscure monster might be at -10, or -30, or -60 or worse. success might mean that you read the one monograph on the subject in the library years ago... or it might provide nothing more than "you are positive that this is a kind of monster previously unknown to you or any of your sources"

Simply because you rolled a success doesn't instantly mean you know everything about a monster and can read its game stats. Sometimes the answer is "you don't know"
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Axelmania »

Blue_Lion wrote:I think your assumption is in conflict with the skill description. The skill is a study of stories and history of monsters and demons. Lore is often passed on by word of mouth(stories).

Are you referring to the 1990 description on RMB 32, or the 2005 description on RUE 324?

Blue_Lion wrote:Specific knowledge is limited to monster common in the area the charter is from.

This tells me you're consulting RUE. I'm referring to RMB.

Blue_Lion wrote:So unless she was from an area where vampires are common she would only have stories.

Reread RUE 324. It does not say "area" it says "continent". Vampires are common in North America, they dominate Mexico. Tarn is from Canada.

Blue_Lion wrote:Even if she was her information would come in the form of stories. As her skill is not 100% some of her may be wrong. She might also might doubt stories that are true, this is a study of lore/stories not physical study.

I disagree. This uncertainty applies to other continents. In RUE, Tarn would have "specific knowledge" of her own continent.

RMB specifies KNOWN things. Not THOUGHT things.

eliakon wrote:Simply because you rolled a success doesn't instantly mean you know everything about a monster and can read its game stats. Sometimes the answer is "you don't know"

Consider how many times a 14th level Rogue Scholar at 98% skill would have rolled checks when planning a trip through Mexico, as pertains to learning about the most prevalent demonic invader in the region.

This isn't "read their game stats". Tarn doesn't need to know average vampire HP. Simply know one of three things:
1) vampires are impervious to particle beams
2) vampires are impervious to railguns
3) vampires are impervious to explosives

She didn't deny a single on of them, and by calling item 5 into doubt, is essentially encouraging people with these weapons to rely on them against vampires.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

When discussing things by cannon you go by currant cannon but even in the outdated book it was a study of lore and beliefs of not science. But even the obsolete book it was not a scientific study. So you are reaching for false conclusion not supported by the actually description.

Page 32 old book.
This is the study of demonic creatures and supernatural monster lore throughout the ages and around the world. It includes the beliefs of ancient and primitive cultures, as well as documentation in the modern...


Oh look it says it right there a study of lore throughout the ages, including beliefs of primitive culture and documentation in the modern. If there was no modern documentation available to her. She would have studied primitive beliefs and ancient story. While the study might include known weakness that does not mean they can tell the difference which primitive beliefs are correct, or which modern documentations are correct. (it is not like she has access to a fact check web data base)

So as the skill was a study of lore that includes beliefs means it includes what people think and is not pure facts. If what you know is a primitive belief that does not make that belief accurate or facts. You are over reaching, to try and make her sound like a villain, the skill it self does not mean she knows which beliefs are real and which are false. Just that she has studied them, if you study with a book that has a error you would not know it until you put it to a test. So unless she had a lab where she tested what worked she is merely operating off of second hand knowledge she gathered.

So no her lack of belief statement is not evidence she mislead people as she re-laid second hand stories she gathered in her study in accordance with the skill description. When she wrote it she did not have a tested and verified vampire guide to go on. What she had was the stories of people, without field test she had no way of knowing which where correct and which where tall tales.

(while vampires are common on part of NA they are not common on the whole content so current cannon she would not have accurate information.)

***note the unrevisied book did not remove anything from the revised. The changed book added things, but an earlier book can not remove things that have not been written.***
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Shark_Force »

again, the lore skill gives you detailed knowledge of the LORE about demons and monsters on your continent. all that skill will let you do is know that there are stories that vampires cannot be harmed with rail guns, and that it is a common belief. it doesn't tell you whether that belief is true or not, it just tells you that it is something people believe. it becomes even further unclear when you consider that there will also be stories where some people have almost definitely witnessed vampires being harmed with railguns, for example (and sure, that could be the result of the monster in question just being something that looked somewhat like a vampire or which they assumed was a vampire (for example because they think everyone bit by a vampire turns into one), or it could be that the railgun in question had special silver or wood-covered slugs, and in fact doesn't even mean that the railgun wasn't actually a heavy machine gun using enchanted bullets, but the person telling the story doesn't know that; all they know is that they are pretty sure they just saw something that they think is a vampire get shot by someone using what they think was a railgun, and the thing they think is a vampire got utterly wrecked by it).

knowledge of lore is not necessarily accurate knowledge of the subject of the lore. some of the stories are probably true. some of the stories are probably false. most of them will probably be a mixture of truth and falsehoods.

tarn's mastery of demon and monster lore has given her some very specific information about the beliefs, traditions, and stories regarding vampires. it has, correctly, not given her any very specific information on whether or not those beliefs, traditions, and stories are 100% accurate.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

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You know, given the amount of anti-vampire gear out there that has been deliberately manufactured by large companies and the anti-vampire stakes/hammers that are common starting gear for many characters, including some Coalition ones, it does seem like Tarn should be more knowledgeable on the topic than she appears to be.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Hotrod wrote:You know, given the amount of anti-vampire gear out there that has been deliberately manufactured by large companies and the anti-vampire stakes/hammers that are common starting gear for many characters, including some Coalition ones, it does seem like Tarn should be more knowledgeable on the topic than she appears to be.

unless and this is just a suggestion, people read her stuff (even high level people in the coalition that claim she is public enemy #whatever) and use the information she publishes, to influence equipment choices that the troops get.

you know that makes it rather amusing and ironic, just how hypocritical the coalition is if they use the information provided by someone they officially hate, to setup gear for troops, to better combat other enemies.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Hotrod wrote:You know, given the amount of anti-vampire gear out there that has been deliberately manufactured by large companies and the anti-vampire stakes/hammers that are common starting gear for many characters, including some Coalition ones, it does seem like Tarn should be more knowledgeable on the topic than she appears to be.


in what way? which part of the stuff she shares contradicts the anti-vampire equipment or starting equipment of anyone?

she never expresses doubt about the things that do hurt them (which was totally a normal thing for that kind of vulnerability to exist when all we had was the RMB), only about the things that are said to not hurt them, and it wouldn't make much sense for everyone to suddenly stop using railguns, particle beams, etc just because one specific creature is rumoured to be immune to them... and that checks out too, because everyone is still using those weapons, it's just that many people have wooden stakes as well.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

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Our GM does allow explosions to affect a vampire's clothes, etc and throw them around but not actually damage them. Same with normal megadamage kinetic type rounds. Knock them back but not damage them.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

There are optional knockdown rules for vampires and the conversion book has more for robots.

I also recall that the reason there are no chunky salsa rules is that the default is any MD attack that kills it's target results in chunky salsa if it's SDC, and if it's by -200 MDC or more it's simply vaporized and there is not even a smudge left.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by shadrak »

Hotrod wrote:You know, given the amount of anti-vampire gear out there that has been deliberately manufactured by large companies and the anti-vampire stakes/hammers that are common starting gear for many characters, including some Coalition ones, it does seem like Tarn should be more knowledgeable on the topic than she appears to be.



Most of this gear was introduced in the mid-2000's...roughly equating to PA 105-PA 106 in the game timeline...

And that gear was not common place in the mid-west/Canada...that gear is common to the Southwest.

Rifts, conceptually, has changed since RMB and Sourcebook 1.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by shadrak »

Axelmania wrote:That reflects Lore: Demon's info on vampires, but Lore: Vampires (probably due to being a narrow specialty) is explicitly more accurate than this.



So, is your issue with Erin Tarn that her letters do not reflect her skill in Lore: Vampires?
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Axelmania »

Blue_Lion wrote:When discussing things by cannon you go by currant cannon

You can go by whatever canon you like. Thus "two Tarns". VK and VK revised have different letters so they give us 2 different pictures of who Tarn is based on those differences.

Blue_Lion wrote:but even in the outdated book it was a study of lore and beliefs of not science. But even the obsolete book it was not a scientific study. So you are reaching for false conclusion not supported by the actually description.

Tarn is not merely impartially recording lore and beliefs, because she chose to inject her personal opinion in parenthesis next to item 5.

Blue_Lion wrote:Oh look it says it right there a study of lore throughout the ages, including beliefs of primitive culture and documentation in the modern. If there was no modern documentation available to her. She would have studied primitive beliefs and ancient story. While the study might include known weakness that does not mean they can tell the difference which primitive beliefs are correct, or which modern documentations are correct. (it is not like she has access to a fact check web data base)

My point is that I believe a lot of players/GMs would think that the Lore skills would allow a character to discern which myths are reliable, particularly at higher skill levels.

IE when you failed the skill roll, you put together a false conclusion about a monster, when you passed it, you have some legit lore and give good advice.

If all a positive skill roll means is you remember SOMETHING (which could be wrong) it doesn't seem as useful as one would hope. It also means there isn't an actual mechanic for determining which information your character believes is true. There's no roll to determine which myth a character will rely on. He'd have to test all of them, and if you had multiple ideas it would be hard to avoid metagaming to discern which things to test first.

We have to look at what this means for characters like the Undead Slayer who probably should know that you can't just shoot vampires with laser guns. Their Demon+Monster Lore did not give them this knowledge. Should they have this knowledge, but not represented through the skills they have?

If characters can simply have knowledge like this which is BETTER than the skill, what's the point of even having it?

Blue_Lion wrote:You are over reaching, to try and make her sound like a villain, the skill it self does not mean she knows which beliefs are real and which are false. Just that she has studied them, if you study with a book that has a error you would not know it until you put it to a test. So unless she had a lab where she tested what worked she is merely operating off of second hand knowledge she gathered.

One could view a 98% skill in something as meaning that over years of experience that they have weighed these beliefs against evidence to get an idea of which myths are more accurate.

For example, Tarn could have interviewed 99 Vagabonds who consistently tell her "I shot a vampire with a laser pistol and it did nothing, but I hit it with a branch and it hurt the vampire".

If she encounters 1 lone vagabond who says "I hit a vampire with a branch and it did nothing, then I shot it with the laser pistol and it died" this wouldn't necessarily lead Tarn to give THIS myth equal weight.

Historians deal with conflicting stories like this all the time, they have means by which to sort out and prioritize information by weight of support.

Blue_Lion wrote:So no her lack of belief statement is not evidence she mislead people as she re-laid second hand stories she gathered in her study in accordance with the skill description.

WRONG, she did not merely relay 2nd-hand stories, she added a parenthesis next to one in particular (a CORRECT story, item 5) calling it into doubt.

Why would she do that, except in applying her own "wisdom" in doubting the (true) claim.

Blue_Lion wrote:When she wrote it she did not have a tested and verified vampire guide to go on. What she had was the stories of people, without field test she had no way of knowing which where correct and which where tall tales.

If Tarn did not test the information, then why would she feel compelled to express her difficulty at believing vampires can't be harmed by particle beam rifles?

Instead of encouraging people with particle beam rifles to go out and kill themselves by saying "I find this hard to believe" when conveying villager wisdom that PB rifles don't harm vamps, why doesn't she simply stay quiet (like she did for the other 10 items) and admit she doesn't know?

Blue_Lion wrote:(while vampires are common on part of NA they are not common on the whole content so current cannon she would not have accurate information.)

A monster doesn't need to be common on the WHOLE continent, RUE's definition simply requires them to be on the continent.

Blue_Lion wrote:***note the unrevisied book did not remove anything from the revised. The changed book added things, but an earlier book can not remove things that have not been written.***

I'm not sure why you're saying this. I pointed out differences between them, whether it was things which were removed or which were added.

Shark_Force wrote:again, the lore skill gives you detailed knowledge of the LORE about demons and monsters on your continent. all that skill will let you do is know that there are stories that vampires cannot be harmed with rail guns, and that it is a common belief. it doesn't tell you whether that belief is true or not, it just tells you that it is something people believe.

In the original VK, Tarn goes beyond conveying the myth to single it out as the one thing (out of 11) which she has trouble believing. Someone with 98% in Demon Lore should have enough experience with the issue to not have difficulty believing TRUE things. This should be the PREVAILING lore which should be very easy to believe because a competent skilled historian is able to prioritize true beliefs.

Shark_Force wrote:it becomes even further unclear when you consider that there will also be stories where some people have almost definitely witnessed vampires being harmed with railguns, for example (and sure, that could be the result of the monster in question just being something that looked somewhat like a vampire or which they assumed was a vampire (for example because they think everyone bit by a vampire turns into one)

In the 1991 book, Tarn explicitly says "true vampires". She has already considered this. The whole point of saying TRUE vampire is that you're aware that there are pseudovampires.

Shark_Force wrote:or it could be that the railgun in question had special silver or wood-covered slugs, and in fact doesn't even mean that the railgun wasn't actually a heavy machine gun using enchanted bullets, but the person telling the story doesn't know that; all they know is that they are pretty sure they just saw something that they think is a vampire get shot by someone using what they think was a railgun, and the thing they think is a vampire got utterly wrecked by it).

Unless you're the one firing a gun, you're probably not going to know the nature of the weapon. If you're firing it, you're probably going to know what ammo you were using.

If the guy firing the gun won the fight, you could also just go and ask him what ammo he was using. So it wouldn't be this big unknown if someone was using metal-cored wood bullets or silver bullets in their railgun.

It also doesn't explain the particle beam weapon problem. There aren't wood/silver bullet explanations for why someone might think a PB rifle could harm a vampire.

Shark_Force wrote:knowledge of lore is not necessarily accurate knowledge of the subject of the lore. some of the stories are probably true. some of the stories are probably false. most of them will probably be a mixture of truth and falsehoods.

If Lore doesn't let you sort this out, what does? What skills would represent the ability of IRL historians to weigh different stories and put together a mostly-correct picture of things?

Shark_Force wrote:tarn's mastery of demon and monster lore has given her some very specific information about the beliefs, traditions, and stories regarding vampires. it has, correctly, not given her any very specific information on whether or not those beliefs, traditions, and stories are 100% accurate.

On the other hand, we don't know she lacks the new "Vampire Lore" skill introduced in VK revised (since "skills of note" only say what people have, not what they don't have) so it's still possible she does have this knowledge.

This is the sort of skill you'd expect a Rogue Scholar planning an exploration of Mexico to have, after all.

Hotrod wrote:You know, given the amount of anti-vampire gear out there that has been deliberately manufactured by large companies and the anti-vampire stakes/hammers that are common starting gear for many characters, including some Coalition ones, it does seem like Tarn should be more knowledgeable on the topic than she appears to be.

Very food point. She does hail from Lazlo, which is basically Techo-Wizard capital. Surely they must be involved in the trade of TW anti-vampire weapons found south. If not them, I can only think Stormspire.

Even if anti-vampire TW gear was being manufactured by random mexican techno-wizards, you'd figure they'd share notes or be interested in rumors about what other TW are producing.

guardiandashi wrote:unless and this is just a suggestion, people read her stuff (even high level people in the coalition that claim she is public enemy #whatever) and use the information she publishes, to influence equipment choices that the troops get.

you know that makes it rather amusing and ironic, just how hypocritical the coalition is if they use the information provided by someone they officially hate, to setup gear for troops, to better combat other enemies.

If the CS had any faith in Tarn's writing, they would take her doubts to heart and try and keep enthusiastically shooting vampires with particle beam rifles. After all, the myths that PB rifles can't hurt vampires are HARD TO BELIEVE by the venerable Tarn, so there's no reason not to try it!

Shark_Force wrote:in what way? which part of the stuff she shares contradicts the anti-vampire equipment or starting equipment of anyone?

she never expresses doubt about the things that do hurt them (which was totally a normal thing for that kind of vulnerability to exist when all we had was the RMB), only about the things that are said to not hurt them,

As I pointed out in the original post, she says:
    The following enumerated facts (?) are about true vampires and are universally agreed upon by the residents along the Rio Grande.

Tarn's use of the parenthesized question mark means she is calling into doubt the ENTIRE list, including items 2/3/4 covering their vulnerability to daylight, water and wood/silver.

The change from "facts (?)" to "beliefs ... accepted by facts by" in Revised is just as bad. In either case, Tarn is choosing to call into doubt not just vampire immunity, but vampire vulnerability as well.

Shark_Force wrote:it wouldn't make much sense for everyone to suddenly stop using railguns, particle beams, etc just because one specific creature is rumoured to be immune to them... and that checks out too, because everyone is still using those weapons, it's just that many people have wooden stakes as well.

Nobody's saying the CS should throw away their PB rifles because of vampires, just that if you know you're dealing with a vampire you should choose something other than a PB rifle to shoot it with.

Not Tarn though. She found it hard to believe PB rifles couldn't harm vampires. Why? I dunno, at the time the conversion book didn't allow PB rifles to harm those with the major super ability from HU of Invulnerability, pretty sure that didn't get added in until later in the revised CB.

shadrak wrote:So, is your issue with Erin Tarn that her letters do not reflect her skill in Lore: Vampires?

Lore: Vampires was not part of Rifts, far as I know, when Vampire Kingdoms, Africa, Coalition War Campaign or Ultimate Edition were published. I believe Vampire Kingdoms Revised was the first adaptation of this skill to Rifts from Nightbane.

The issue is this was pretty much the best/only skill to reflect knowledge of vampires prior to Lore: Vampires being added.

So at the time, a 98% skill in Demon Lore was the best crunch representation you could have of someone knowing how to deal with vampires, what does or doesn't hurt them.

So I think her letters don't reflect her skill in Lore: Demons, what that skill should have represented at the time.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Shark_Force »

if lore: monsters and demons turns into an almost perfectly reliable way of knowing everything important about any monster, it becomes an absurdly powerful skill far out of proportion with most every other. it becomes essentially non-optional.

if it lets you know stories about monsters, it becomes a useful tool for getting hints as to what is going on without being a nearly perfectly accurate solution to every question you have about every monster you encounter. having a higher skill means you are better at finding those hints, which can make your efforts to deal with various monsters far easier... an ability which is well worth a skill as far as i'm concerned.

if you want the benefits of first-hand knowledge backed up by extensive scientific research, you're going to have to do that yourself. otherwise, you have stories that you've heard from other people, which you don't know are either accurate or inaccurate with absolute certainty until you put them to the test yourself.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Axelmania »

If by "almost perfectly reliable" you mean 98% skill, most people won't have it anywhere near there because they are not as intelligent, experienced, or educated as Tarn is. The skill begins at 25% so 75% of the time noobs using it will come to the wrong conclusions. It's not like a GM will just let you shrug off failures and keep rerolling until you pass.

Also: do we really think Lazlo lacks extensive research on demons?
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Axelmania wrote:If by "almost perfectly reliable" you mean 98% skill, most people won't have it anywhere near there because they are not as intelligent, experienced, or educated as Tarn is. The skill begins at 25% so 75% of the time noobs using it will come to the wrong conclusions. It's not like a GM will just let you shrug off failures and keep rerolling until you pass.

Also: do we really think Lazlo lacks extensive research on demons?


just about *everyone* lacks extensive scientific research on demons. i'm quite certain that lazlo has an abundance of *lore* regarding demons, but given that they likely don't summon demons into labs for the purpose of experimenting on them, i would be quite surprised to discover that lazlo has a great deal of personal first-hand experience with demons.

but seriously, just to show how easy it is for fake "facts" to get into common knowledge... consider the bear. now, bears are fairly common creatures. you may have seen one in a zoo... you may have seen one in the wild. you almost definitely know someone who has encountered bears in the wild, and possibly even know someone who has fairly regular encounters. we live in a society where access to people with knowledge about bears is readily available because there is a worldwide communication network that almost everyone uses on a daily basis, often for most of the day.

and yet, there are some completely absurd ideas that people have about bears. ideas like "bears can't run downhill so you can outrun them by going down hills" or "if you're being chased by a bear, climb a tree because bears can't climb trees" (given this one seems to cite their heaviness as the reason, that they would break the tree, you'd think that a bear heavy enough to break trees would imply that maybe you shouldn't be climbing a tree that the bear can break down, but it still persists), and a number of other mistaken beliefs (http://www.bearsmart.com/about-bears/dispelling-myths/ has some examples if you would like). this kind of misinformation exists for a variety of other creatures, too (including a number of them that often live in close proximity to humans, like bats). creatures that have zero supernatural aspects to them, which live in a world where there is an abundance of scientists, and those scientists are always looking for something new to study, and in a world where it is easier to share information than it has been at any other time in history... and yet, there's all manner of bad information about these creatures. on rifts earth, with few exceptions there is nobody in the wilderness counting numbers, studying their habits in the wild, putting trackers onto these supernatural creatures to observe their migratory patterns, etc (Doc Reed is an exception to this trend when it comes to vampires, but i rather doubt he's got a website up that's accessible from all over the planet detailing his findings). so instead, people have to rely on stories, which can come from unreliable people (including people that the vampires have some control over by a variety of methods; the vampires *do* have a vested interest in spreading misinformation about what can kill them and how to defend against them, after all).

a high "lore" skill will let you know more of those stories... consider, for example, the mythbusters. a lot of the myths they busted were things i certainly never heard about, presumably because over the course of trying to find myths to bust they developed a much higher knowledge of various "lores" than i did. and you should also notice that they used their knowledge of science, not their knowledge of those stories, to prove or disprove those myths... and that their guesses are not always right, in spite of their high lore skill, because it isn't lore that gives consistent reliable answers, it is when they actually run tests using scientific methods. that's WHY we started using the scientific method in the first place, because until we started testing and peer-reviewing and recording results and requiring proof, there were a lot of ideas that people had about how the world works in almost every field (astronomy, physics, chemistry, medicine/biology, you name it there were all kinds of things that people got wrong)

a knowledge of stories about something is not the same as having accurate scientifically-tested information about something. rifts has plenty of the former, and very little of the latter.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Axelmania »

Shark_Force wrote:they likely don't summon demons into labs for the purpose of experimenting on them

Sure they would, why not? They're willing to genocide the Xiticix who heal much slower and are far less malicious than demons. They've also likely encountered the lore that a slain demon doesn't permanently die and just has decades of down-time in their home dimension so there would be no guilt if they died under the knife.

Shark_Force wrote:and yet, there are some completely absurd ideas that people have about bears. ideas like "bears can't run downhill so you can outrun them by going down hills" or "if you're being chased by a bear, climb a tree because bears can't climb trees"

Is this really all we expect Lore skills to do? A success means you remember a useless or dangerous anecdote as readily as a useful and accurate one? No ability to prioritize the true ones? The % is simply whether you remember ANY information, and failure just means NO INFO rather than bad info?

What skill represents being able to respond to Lore BS then?
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Axelmania wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:they likely don't summon demons into labs for the purpose of experimenting on them

Sure they would, why not? They're willing to genocide the Xiticix who heal much slower and are far less malicious than demons. They've also likely encountered the lore that a slain demon doesn't permanently die and just has decades of down-time in their home dimension so there would be no guilt if they died under the knife.

Shark_Force wrote:and yet, there are some completely absurd ideas that people have about bears. ideas like "bears can't run downhill so you can outrun them by going down hills" or "if you're being chased by a bear, climb a tree because bears can't climb trees"

Is this really all we expect Lore skills to do? A success means you remember a useless or dangerous anecdote as readily as a useful and accurate one? No ability to prioritize the true ones? The % is simply whether you remember ANY information, and failure just means NO INFO rather than bad info?

What skill represents being able to respond to Lore BS then?


lazlo wouldn't do experiments on demons because torture is not acceptable behaviour even if the subject of the torture is going to recover eventually. just like they don't torture the xiticix. that doesn't mean they aren't going to try to kill threats to them, but it does mean torture, which is pretty much what experimenting to discover what does or doesn't harm demons is going to mean.

and no, lore doesn't only give you false information. it can just as easily get accurate information... and presuming you know the source (i'd expect successful lore skill checks to help with that), you can certainly make a more informed guess regarding what is accurate and what isn't. but as far as proving or disproving? again, personal experience or skills that provide hard knowledge.

for example, suppose you've heard lore that suggests bears can't run downhill, but you've also heard lore (traditions, stories, and other knowledge passed around a community) from wilderness scouts saying that's a load of bull. the wilderness scout is a more reliable source, and common sense suggests there is no reason bears couldn't run downhill, so you figure bears probably *can* run downhill just fine.

you could also use a skill that gives you hard knowledge; if, say, you've heard a story that simvan eat gold, but you know that they thrive in a number of areas that don't have any gold deposits because of your geology skill, or you know that they would need to be mostly made of gold if they ate gold in any significant quantity because of your biology skill (and since they aren't made of gold, that story is probably inaccurate), and so forth.

but while those other skills can help you guess how accurate that lore is, it won't give you the lore in the first place; no amount of biology or geology will tell you that the simvan in a certain area particularly covet gold over other forms of currency for some unknown reason, and it certainly won't tell you that the simvan are known for taming and riding monsters (if you're looking for a skill that might help you confirm whether simvan actually ride monsters, i would suggest history skills would be applicable, although for such common knowledge - given they're known as simvan >>> monster riders <<< i would expect you wouldn't have much conflicting lore on that point. you might have a bit of conflicting lore on what specific monsters they tend to prefer, i suppose).

of course, sometimes lore can be used to help prove or disprove itself; if you've heard conflicting lore (which a higher lore skill and therefore knowing more lore will help with, in the event that there is conflicting lore to be had) you can potentially get a better feel for it by having other confirmed lore... like with that example i just used where you might get conflicting lore about what specific monsters simvan are likely to ride... you might use your demons and monster lore skill to know that fury beetles are common in one area, but not in another, and thus speculate that the simvan in that one area are fond of fury beetles (because they're available) but not the simvan in the other area. or if you have heard lore about the territory where you can find simvan, and territory where you can find fury beetles, and there is a tremendous amount of overlap, you might speculate that simvan are fond of fury beetles and prefer to live in areas where fury beetles are available to tame.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Axelmania »

Who's to say a forced experiment is necessarily torture? Demons are probably more traumatized by cute kittens than they are being tied up or injured. Do we even know all of them feel pain from 1 MD?

Do we really know enough about the policies and alignments of Lazlo to say this is an option which is off the table?

lore doesn't only give you false information. it can just as easily get accurate information

Right, but unless you know what is accurate and what isn't, you can't prioritize the application of correct information.

So what skill can represent that ability to learn what lores are correct and put together a proper picture of the universe? What skill check results in properly prioritizing the word of the Wilderness Scout over the Operator regarding bears?
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Axelmania wrote:Who's to say a forced experiment is necessarily torture? Demons are probably more traumatized by cute kittens than they are being tied up or injured. Do we even know all of them feel pain from 1 MD?

Do we really know enough about the policies and alignments of Lazlo to say this is an option which is off the table?

lore doesn't only give you false information. it can just as easily get accurate information

Right, but unless you know what is accurate and what isn't, you can't prioritize the application of correct information.

So what skill can represent that ability to learn what lores are correct and put together a proper picture of the universe? What skill check results in properly prioritizing the word of the Wilderness Scout over the Operator regarding bears?


so far as we know, demons are not lining up to get punched in the face by each other so they can experience the joys of being in pain. so quite frankly, torture is still torture for them. you can, of course, lie to yourself all you like, but i rather suspect that a person who chose the name of one of the most well-known philosophers ever would be inclined to do that, and we know plato has a rather high up position in lazlo.

as to prioritizing... well, as i said: partly common sense, partly other skills that *are* based on actual evidence, and partly just intuition even. of course, sometimes that will lead you astray (an expert can be wrong about something, and an amateur can be right), but them's the breaks. it simply isn't perfect knowledge, and it isn't meant to be.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by eliakon »

Shark_Force wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Who's to say a forced experiment is necessarily torture? Demons are probably more traumatized by cute kittens than they are being tied up or injured. Do we even know all of them feel pain from 1 MD?

Do we really know enough about the policies and alignments of Lazlo to say this is an option which is off the table?

lore doesn't only give you false information. it can just as easily get accurate information

Right, but unless you know what is accurate and what isn't, you can't prioritize the application of correct information.

So what skill can represent that ability to learn what lores are correct and put together a proper picture of the universe? What skill check results in properly prioritizing the word of the Wilderness Scout over the Operator regarding bears?


so far as we know, demons are not lining up to get punched in the face by each other so they can experience the joys of being in pain. so quite frankly, torture is still torture for them. you can, of course, lie to yourself all you like, but i rather suspect that a person who chose the name of one of the most well-known philosophers ever would be inclined to do that, and we know plato has a rather high up position in lazlo.

Also this is Palladium.
Good and Evil (including torture) are universally defined measurable constants.
Torture is defined by the universe itself and only certain people are allowed to do so with out repercussions.
Period.
Houserulling this away is fine... but that is not RAW and Erin Tarn lives in the world of RAW.


As for sorting and prioritizing?
That is the skill roll. :lol:
No really, that is what it is for. But even with a 98% skill you can still roll a 99 or 00. And that doesn't factor in that sometimes there are skill penalties.
It is perfectly possible for someone to get a result that they think is questionable. "I have heard from several good sources that this particular bit of outrageous information is, indeed, true. It worries me and I am not sure if I can believe it because it is so wildly divergant from anything else out there but here it is" might have been another, wordier, way to present the same thing she said...But 1) it is longer and more important 2) it is not how she speaks. She is a writter of prose not a lawyer.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Axelmania »

SF only a Principled char will "Never torture for any reason." The next best Scrupulous is merely "Never torture for pleasure", It even specifies "may use muscle to extract information from criminals or evil characters" which would perfectly describe tying up demons and testing to see what harms their species.

As for prioritizing, we may be roleplaying a character who might lack the same level of common sense as we have, or have more common sense than we have. I think what historians do, what those who study lore do, has some expertise to it beyond mere common sense.

Eliakon the problem is that this went beyond prose in the initial version. Why would Tarn turn out to be worried about and unsure in belief about the inability of a particle beam rifle to harm a vampire? Of all things?
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by dreicunan »

Axelmania wrote:SF only a Principled char will "Never torture for any reason." The next best Scrupulous is merely "Never torture for pleasure", It even specifies "may use muscle to extract information from criminals or evil characters" which would perfectly describe tying up demons and testing to see what harms their species.

As for prioritizing, we may be roleplaying a character who might lack the same level of common sense as we have, or have more common sense than we have. I think what historians do, what those who study lore do, has some expertise to it beyond mere common sense.

Eliakon the problem is that this went beyond prose in the initial version. Why would Tarn turn out to be worried about and unsure in belief about the inability of a particle beam rifle to harm a vampire? Of all things?

Because particle beam weapons are powerful things. That a vampire can essentially bathe in the blasts and then rip your throat out would be a reason to be concerned.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by guardiandashi »

dreicunan wrote:
Axelmania wrote:SF only a Principled char will "Never torture for any reason." The next best Scrupulous is merely "Never torture for pleasure", It even specifies "may use muscle to extract information from criminals or evil characters" which would perfectly describe tying up demons and testing to see what harms their species.

As for prioritizing, we may be roleplaying a character who might lack the same level of common sense as we have, or have more common sense than we have. I think what historians do, what those who study lore do, has some expertise to it beyond mere common sense.

Eliakon the problem is that this went beyond prose in the initial version. Why would Tarn turn out to be worried about and unsure in belief about the inability of a particle beam rifle to harm a vampire? Of all things?

Because particle beam weapons are powerful things. That a vampire can essentially bathe in the blasts and then rip your throat out would be a reason to be concerned.

actually I believe in the older material the particle beam was supposed to be the one weapon that damaged "every thing" when it hit.

the reasoning was some things were impervious to energy, but a particle beam has a kenetic portion so it got around that, some things were impervious to impact, but it also burns so it still damaged them etc.

it might only do a small amount of its normal damage but it still did damage.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Axelmania »

Not sure what you mean by older material. Pretty sure in Rifts they were classified as energy weapons so Impervious to Energy would block them.

I think I recall something in HU or AU about them being able to harm either those with Invulnerability or Intangibility though, can't recall.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:Not sure what you mean by older material. Pretty sure in Rifts they were classified as energy weapons so Impervious to Energy would block them.

I think I recall something in HU or AU about them being able to harm either those with Invulnerability or Intangibility though, can't recall.

HU I believe GMG book made them able to damage things impervious to harm. That is not a rule found in rifts.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:SF only a Principled char will "Never torture for any reason." The next best Scrupulous is merely "Never torture for pleasure", It even specifies "may use muscle to extract information from criminals or evil characters" which would perfectly describe tying up demons and testing to see what harms their species.

As for prioritizing, we may be roleplaying a character who might lack the same level of common sense as we have, or have more common sense than we have. I think what historians do, what those who study lore do, has some expertise to it beyond mere common sense.

Eliakon the problem is that this went beyond prose in the initial version. Why would Tarn turn out to be worried about and unsure in belief about the inability of a particle beam rifle to harm a vampire? Of all things?

Because may be she may have never encountered one with a PB rifle. She is after all going on stories she researched.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Shark_Force wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Who's to say a forced experiment is necessarily torture? Demons are probably more traumatized by cute kittens than they are being tied up or injured. Do we even know all of them feel pain from 1 MD?

Do we really know enough about the policies and alignments of Lazlo to say this is an option which is off the table?

lore doesn't only give you false information. it can just as easily get accurate information

Right, but unless you know what is accurate and what isn't, you can't prioritize the application of correct information.

So what skill can represent that ability to learn what lores are correct and put together a proper picture of the universe? What skill check results in properly prioritizing the word of the Wilderness Scout over the Operator regarding bears?


so far as we know, demons are not lining up to get punched in the face by each other so they can experience the joys of being in pain. so quite frankly, torture is still torture for them. you can, of course, lie to yourself all you like, but i rather suspect that a person who chose the name of one of the most well-known philosophers ever would be inclined to do that, and we know plato has a rather high up position in lazlo.

as to prioritizing... well, as i said: partly common sense, partly other skills that *are* based on actual evidence, and partly just intuition even. of course, sometimes that will lead you astray (an expert can be wrong about something, and an amateur can be right), but them's the breaks. it simply isn't perfect knowledge, and it isn't meant to be.

There is no skill to tell what stories lore has found are true and what are not. Common monsters where you are from would likely have easily available documentation. The lore skill is not a free pass for use of player knowledge.


Think about it this way there are people that doubt that the earth is generally spherical shape, even though information on it is easily available. They doubt the accuracy of photo evidence that it is round.

So it is possible even if every thing some one knows on vampires is true they may doubt it because it sounds so outlandish. What if she thinks there is a conspiracy by vampires to make them sound harder to kill. Think about it they can charm people and even impersonate them. What if the information she found with the lore skill is all a vampire plot? Would she not feel compelled to voice her doubt in the stories even if they are true simply because they sound outlandish.

Also if a monster is not common on the whole content it is not common on the content. It can be common in an area but that does not make it common to the content. So by the description of the skill she would not have accurate information on vampires because they are not common to the content. (Quinault tribal members are common in grays harbor, but they are not common in the US. Most people will never see one in their life.)
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Eagle »

Again, if Erin Tarn were suddenly transported to Rifts: Hawaii, where she's never been before (and we have no books yet detailing what kind of critters live there), her Lore skills will not automatically cover whatever monsters are there. Anything new and Hawaii-specific that she's never encountered before will be a surprise. She won't have 98% Monster Lore for those creatures, because she's never been there and she's never heard about them. The GM declares it to be so.

After a period of living on the islands (GM discretion as to how long), she will then be able to use her skills. Even if the player doesn't role-play out every conversation where she learns about local monsters, the character is assumed to be using her downtime to update her existing skills with the new local knowledge.

In real life, I'm a lawyer. Suppose I have the skill "Law" at 70%. But I don't practice in Hawaii. If I were to move there, I wouldn't instantly know everything there is to know about Hawaiian law (or even 70% of it). The new knowledge doesn't instantly flow into my head. It would take time for me to adjust and bring my skills up to their standard level. When Erin Tarn is writing her "it's hard to believe" letter, she's in the process of doing that.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by The Beast »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Not sure what you mean by older material. Pretty sure in Rifts they were classified as energy weapons so Impervious to Energy would block them.

I think I recall something in HU or AU about them being able to harm either those with Invulnerability or Intangibility though, can't recall.

HU I believe GMG book made them able to damage things impervious to harm. That is not a rule found in rifts.


Correction, that book made particle beam weapons able to harm characters with the superpower of Invulnerability. It said nothing about whether or not that rule is applied to settings outside of the HU/AU setting, nor does the book address if it applies to other types of immunities (ie: werewolves, vampires, etc). It also didn't address if the other rule concerning PBWs applies to settings other than HU/AU.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by eliakon »

Eagle wrote:Again, if Erin Tarn were suddenly transported to Rifts: Hawaii, where she's never been before (and we have no books yet detailing what kind of critters live there), her Lore skills will not automatically cover whatever monsters are there. Anything new and Hawaii-specific that she's never encountered before will be a surprise. She won't have 98% Monster Lore for those creatures, because she's never been there and she's never heard about them. The GM declares it to be so.

After a period of living on the islands (GM discretion as to how long), she will then be able to use her skills. Even if the player doesn't role-play out every conversation where she learns about local monsters, the character is assumed to be using her downtime to update her existing skills with the new local knowledge.

In real life, I'm a lawyer. Suppose I have the skill "Law" at 70%. But I don't practice in Hawaii. If I were to move there, I wouldn't instantly know everything there is to know about Hawaiian law (or even 70% of it). The new knowledge doesn't instantly flow into my head. It would take time for me to adjust and bring my skills up to their standard level. When Erin Tarn is writing her "it's hard to believe" letter, she's in the process of doing that.

Thank You. This is a perfect example and explanation.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

guardiandashi wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Axelmania wrote:SF only a Principled char will "Never torture for any reason." The next best Scrupulous is merely "Never torture for pleasure", It even specifies "may use muscle to extract information from criminals or evil characters" which would perfectly describe tying up demons and testing to see what harms their species.

As for prioritizing, we may be roleplaying a character who might lack the same level of common sense as we have, or have more common sense than we have. I think what historians do, what those who study lore do, has some expertise to it beyond mere common sense.

Eliakon the problem is that this went beyond prose in the initial version. Why would Tarn turn out to be worried about and unsure in belief about the inability of a particle beam rifle to harm a vampire? Of all things?

Because particle beam weapons are powerful things. That a vampire can essentially bathe in the blasts and then rip your throat out would be a reason to be concerned.

actually I believe in the older material the particle beam was supposed to be the one weapon that damaged "every thing" when it hit.

the reasoning was some things were impervious to energy, but a particle beam has a kenetic portion so it got around that, some things were impervious to impact, but it also burns so it still damaged them etc.

it might only do a small amount of its normal damage but it still did damage.


That's a garbled version that's kind of been floating around.

There's a note in the GM's guide that it "damages Invunerable characters, but half damage." Note that in heroes unlimited context, "Invunerable" tends to refer to the super power of Invunerabilty, so it's really not clear if this applys to vampires, as they don't have the super power invunerability. also i've heard it say it bypasses impervious to energy but that's based on your mentioned garbled rumor of it being based on being partially kinetic. this is nowhere stated. in fact, it offers absolutelyu no explination at all.

And that's because in HU context, it wouldn't matter. the Super power of Invunerability wouldn't care if it's half physical, half energy, but also burns, ect, because they're invunerable to all those things individaully. the super power of Invunerability ignores all damage that isn't magical or psionic in nature, period, they're just as immune to kenetic impact as they are to energy, so the argument that particle beams work because they're half energy is nonsense: it wouldn't matter because they're impervious to both halves. and so are vampires! So by that logic the only thing that makes sense is if partical beams are half magic.

Or maybe it was a retcon they threw in for some semblance of balance because one Invunerable character completely shuts down tech-based hardware classes pointblank, and didn't bother to think of any in-game justification.
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Axelmania »

Blue_Lion wrote:Because may be she may have never encountered one with a PB rifle. She is after all going on stories she researched.


I'm not aware of Tarn having any experience fighting vampires AT ALL, so why would she feel okay repeating stuff like stakes hurting them but want to call into doubt a precaution not to rely on particle beams?

Blue_Lion wrote:What if she thinks there is a conspiracy by vampires to make them sound harder to kill. Think about it they can charm people and even impersonate them. What if the information she found with the lore skill is all a vampire plot? Would she not feel compelled to voice her doubt in the stories even if they are true simply because they sound outlandish.

This is an interesting idea, but it begs the question why she doesn't explain the reason for her doubts, and why in particular she only isolated 1 item on the list of rumors to discredit. Couldn't other items on that list be part of a conspiracy?

Vampires might example, spread the false idea that wooden stakes kill them (Tarn repeated that false rumor, not correcting that it only puts them in stasis) to prevent enemies from using things which can actually kill them (sun or running water) giving the vamps a chance to come back and kill them.

Blue_Lion wrote:Also if a monster is not common on the whole content it is not common on the content. It can be common in an area but that does not make it common to the content.

So which monster exactly would be common on the "whole" continent? What exactly is the guideline here, at least 1 per every single square mile or else it's not common to the entire continent, just certain parts? Could ANY monster aside from entities fulfill these requirements with all the territory the CS has secured?

Eagle wrote:Again, if Erin Tarn were suddenly transported to Rifts: Hawaii, where she's never been before (and we have no books yet detailing what kind of critters live there), her Lore skills will not automatically cover whatever monsters are there. Anything new and Hawaii-specific that she's never encountered before will be a surprise. She won't have 98% Monster Lore for those creatures, because she's never been there and she's never heard about them. The GM declares it to be so.

After a period of living on the islands (GM discretion as to how long), she will then be able to use her skills. Even if the player doesn't role-play out every conversation where she learns about local monsters, the character is assumed to be using her downtime to update her existing skills with the new local knowledge.

The GM is free to house-rule location-based penalties like these, but they do not exist under the baseline skill description. Hawaii is considered part of North America, so anyone with Lore: Demons and Monsters (North America) would be equally knowledgeable about monsters inhabiting any part of it, regardless of their life experiences.

Applying bonuses/penalties to continent-based skills based upon continental-aspect familiarities is completely logical and I'd support the introduction of them somewhere, of course.

I dare say that Old Mexico is probably going to have more information available to mainland residents of Old US(even ones who hail from Old Canada) than Old Hawaii though.

Eagle wrote:In real life, I'm a lawyer. Suppose I have the skill "Law" at 70%. But I don't practice in Hawaii. If I were to move there, I wouldn't instantly know everything there is to know about Hawaiian law (or even 70% of it). The new knowledge doesn't instantly flow into my head. It would take time for me to adjust and bring my skills up to their standard level. When Erin Tarn is writing her "it's hard to believe" letter, she's in the process of doing that.

According to the RAW, you'd be 70% for everything. But I do agree that for realism it would make sense to apply certain bonuses/penalties to areas of specialty or ignorance. GMs are of course free to introduce house rules like that, though it would be nice for there to be some uniform guidelines.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:the only thing that makes sense is if partical beams are half magic.

Or psi, or phase. I think those hurt invulnerables (Major super or vamp)
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Re: Tale of Two Tarns: Erin's suspect shifting Vamp Lore sta

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:Because may be she may have never encountered one with a PB rifle. She is after all going on stories she researched.


I'm not aware of Tarn having any experience fighting vampires AT ALL, so why would she feel okay repeating stuff like stakes hurting them but want to call into doubt a precaution not to rely on particle beams?

Blue_Lion wrote:What if she thinks there is a conspiracy by vampires to make them sound harder to kill. Think about it they can charm people and even impersonate them. What if the information she found with the lore skill is all a vampire plot? Would she not feel compelled to voice her doubt in the stories even if they are true simply because they sound outlandish.

This is an interesting idea, but it begs the question why she doesn't explain the reason for her doubts, and why in particular she only isolated 1 item on the list of rumors to discredit. Couldn't other items on that list be part of a conspiracy?

Vampires might example, spread the false idea that wooden stakes kill them (Tarn repeated that false rumor, not correcting that it only puts them in stasis) to prevent enemies from using things which can actually kill them (sun or running water) giving the vamps a chance to come back and kill them.

Blue_Lion wrote:Also if a monster is not common on the whole content it is not common on the content. It can be common in an area but that does not make it common to the content.

So which monster exactly would be common on the "whole" continent? What exactly is the guideline here, at least 1 per every single square mile or else it's not common to the entire continent, just certain parts? Could ANY monster aside from entities fulfill these requirements with all the territory the CS has secured?

Eagle wrote:Again, if Erin Tarn were suddenly transported to Rifts: Hawaii, where she's never been before (and we have no books yet detailing what kind of critters live there), her Lore skills will not automatically cover whatever monsters are there. Anything new and Hawaii-specific that she's never encountered before will be a surprise. She won't have 98% Monster Lore for those creatures, because she's never been there and she's never heard about them. The GM declares it to be so.

After a period of living on the islands (GM discretion as to how long), she will then be able to use her skills. Even if the player doesn't role-play out every conversation where she learns about local monsters, the character is assumed to be using her downtime to update her existing skills with the new local knowledge.

The GM is free to house-rule location-based penalties like these, but they do not exist under the baseline skill description. Hawaii is considered part of North America, so anyone with Lore: Demons and Monsters (North America) would be equally knowledgeable about monsters inhabiting any part of it, regardless of their life experiences.

Applying bonuses/penalties to continent-based skills based upon continental-aspect familiarities is completely logical and I'd support the introduction of them somewhere, of course.

I dare say that Old Mexico is probably going to have more information available to mainland residents of Old US(even ones who hail from Old Canada) than Old Hawaii though.

Eagle wrote:In real life, I'm a lawyer. Suppose I have the skill "Law" at 70%. But I don't practice in Hawaii. If I were to move there, I wouldn't instantly know everything there is to know about Hawaiian law (or even 70% of it). The new knowledge doesn't instantly flow into my head. It would take time for me to adjust and bring my skills up to their standard level. When Erin Tarn is writing her "it's hard to believe" letter, she's in the process of doing that.

According to the RAW, you'd be 70% for everything. But I do agree that for realism it would make sense to apply certain bonuses/penalties to areas of specialty or ignorance. GMs are of course free to introduce house rules like that, though it would be nice for there to be some uniform guidelines.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:the only thing that makes sense is if partical beams are half magic.

Or psi, or phase. I think those hurt invulnerables (Major super or vamp)


Psi is possible. Phase not really. It says they hurt vampires and other supernaturals because Phase beams disrupt their magical energy that animates or empowers them.

So it ignores immunity for supernatural beings, but the Invunerability super power isn't magical or supernatural in origion, so there's no reason to think Phase Beamers would work on them, unless the power of Invunerability explictly comes from a supernatural force, like a Mystically Bestowed character. but a Mutant or Experiment or Alien with a natural/technological origion of Invunerability would be immune to phase beamers too.
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