was Chi a form of Psionics all along?

[Axelmania]

I remember some sore feelings about one of the books (I think Japan or China or Conversion Book) changing Chi from Ninjas and Super Spies into psi.

But upon reviewing the conversion notes in the back (pg 163) the Mind Mage from the Palladium RPG could use "Detect Psionics" to "easily detect and evaluate characters who have powerful Chi".

Wouldn't that mean with anyone who has Chi higher than PE qualifies as psychic?

Or is this just like giving a new 'free ability' to any Mind Mages who had these powers, similar to how anyone with chi mastery powers gets some free powers with whatever they pick? So in that case the Mind Mage with Detect Psionic doesn't actually use Detect Psionic (which has an ISP cost) to detect powerful Chi?

The parenthesized "as Chi Awareness" refers to page 118, which has no ISP or even chi cost. It is a free ability just like Chi Relaxation.

[eliakon]

I remember some sore feelings about one of the books (I think Japan or China or Conversion Book) changing Chi from Ninjas and Super Spies into psi.

But upon reviewing the conversion notes in the back (pg 163) the Mind Mage from the Palladium RPG could use "Detect Psionics" to "easily detect and evaluate characters who have powerful Chi".

Wouldn't that mean with anyone who has Chi higher than PE qualifies as psychic?

Or is this just like giving a new 'free ability' to any Mind Mages who had these powers, similar to how anyone with chi mastery powers gets some free powers with whatever they pick? So in that case the Mind Mage with Detect Psionic doesn't actually use Detect Psionic (which has an ISP cost) to detect powerful Chi?

The parenthesized "as Chi Awareness" refers to page 118, which has no ISP or even chi cost. It is a free ability just like Chi Relaxation.

Yeah, its just a new power.
Note that it said that the Mind Mage got this. Not that "any use of psionic detection abilities" does this.

[Blue_Lion]

No.
Mystic chinia rifts uses isp as chi while japan uses ppe as chi, the revised conversion book has optional rules to use it as psi powers.

However some of the rules for chi combat are incompatible with it being isp and even PPE.

Every one has a starting chi equal to PE-not every one has ISP and PPE is different starting value.
There is no negative isp or PPE.
You can not heal if your chi is attuned wrong or has been disrupted reduced to 0.
There are spells to change chi to PPE.

Also on the mage page cutting room floor the charter sheet tracks chi separate from PPE or ISP

[Killer Cyborg]

I remember some sore feelings about one of the books (I think Japan or China or Conversion Book) changing Chi from Ninjas and Super Spies into psi.

But upon reviewing the conversion notes in the back (pg 163) the Mind Mage from the Palladium RPG could use "Detect Psionics" to "easily detect and evaluate characters who have powerful Chi".

Wouldn't that mean with anyone who has Chi higher than PE qualifies as psychic?

Or is this just like giving a new 'free ability' to any Mind Mages who had these powers, similar to how anyone with chi mastery powers gets some free powers with whatever they pick? So in that case the Mind Mage with Detect Psionic doesn't actually use Detect Psionic (which has an ISP cost) to detect powerful Chi?

The parenthesized "as Chi Awareness" refers to page 118, which has no ISP or even chi cost. It is a free ability just like Chi Relaxation.

Yeah, its just a new power.
Note that it said that the Mind Mage got this. Not that "any use of psionic detection abilities" does this.

Agreed, for the same reasons.

[Axelmania]

Okay so the question is: is this a new aspect of Detect Psionics (still pay same price to activate, same duration) or a totally separate no-cost always-on power that anyone with Detect Psionic now has?

[Blue_Lion]

Okay so the question is: is this a new aspect of Detect Psionics (still pay same price to activate, same duration) or a totally separate no-cost always-on power that anyone with Detect Psionic now has?

If it only appears in the mind mage description it is likely a class specific add on to the power. So it is not a any one has but a mind mage has. It is a bonus affect of a specific class on the detect psi power.
When a setting has something difrent than another it is also posible it is a setting specific tweak.

[ShadowLogan]

I remember some sore feelings about one of the books (I think Japan or China or Conversion Book) changing Chi from Ninjas and Super Spies into psi.

Japan uses PPE for the mystic martial arts powers, CB1r uses ISP, and I don't know about China.

However it should be remembered that ISP and PPE are "convertible" for some purposes usually 2ISP = 1 PPE). So the way I would treat Japan and CB1r (and by extension China) would be that the people have found different methods of "unlocking" said power/ability. This likely also indicates that ISP = PPE = Chi at some conversion rate (I'm not overly familiar with N&SS).

But upon reviewing the conversion notes in the back (pg 163) the Mind Mage from the Palladium RPG could use "Detect Psionics" to "easily detect and evaluate characters who have powerful Chi".

Wouldn't "See Aura" also show Chi?

But I agree with others in principle that it would be new.

There is no negative isp or PPE.

Nega Psychic and Psi Nullifier character classes in Rifts Psycape (WB12) beg to differ:
-pg58 "The expending on one P.P.E. point as negative energy will disrupt and dispell [i]three P.P.E. from the magic ritual or spell caster."
-pg66 "As a living battery of negative psychic energy"
-pg67 "he instinctively floods his attacker(s) with a wave of negative psychic energy.. This negative energy destroys positive psionic and magic energies, canceling them out completely or reducing their power", and later "releases enough negative psychic energy to cancel or diminish most psi-powers or magic spells used within his disruption range." Several more instances of this "negative ISP"

Now it does not function like Chi in the sense you track positive and negative pools and repercussions on them, but to say there is no "negative" ISP or PPE seems to be in error from a certain POV given that Nega-Psychics and Psi-Nullifiers are described as producing negative energy.

[Library Ogre]

I view Chi and ISP as being refinements of PPE, with ISP being a refinement towards mental applications and Chi as being a refinement towards the physical (thus why Chi can be influenced by the arrangement of physical objects, and more commonly exists independent of a mind).

So, I don't see an inherent problem with psychic powers being able to affect or sense Chi, and vice versa, but it's less efficient than magic doing the same, and magic is less efficient than Chi/ISP being used to influence themselves.

[Axelmania]

Okay so the question is: is this a new aspect of Detect Psionics (still pay same price to activate, same duration) or a totally separate no-cost always-on power that anyone with Detect Psionic now has?

If it only appears in the mind mage description it is likely a class specific add on to the power. So it is not a any one has but a mind mage has. It is a bonus affect of a specific class on the detect psi power.
When a setting has something difrent than another it is also posible it is a setting specific tweak.

Fair enough, you must meet both criteria:
1) be a Mind Mage (sorry Melters)
2) have Detect Psionics (or one of those other 2 powers)

When you say it's a bonus on the power though, mechanically it is still important to know if they get "Chi Awareness" always-on no-cost like a Chi Master does, or if it's more like they're a "temporary Chi Master" any time they pay ISP to activate one of these abilities, and only so long as the duration lasts.

An extension of this would be that beings like Psi-Nullifiers who can knock out ISP-based psi-powers could then jam their Chi Awareness by deactivating the psi it relies on, though they couldn't impede a normal Chi Master's Chi Awareness.

Another important aspect would be that Chi Masters using Chi Awareness would not read to beings who could sense psi in use as using psi, but that a Mind Mage who got temporary Chi Awareness whenever they were using these powers, would have to read as using psi (the base power) any time they wanted to do this. So they could be tracked by Psi-Stalkers while Chi Masters could not be tracked by Psi-Stalkers.

But upon reviewing the conversion notes in the back (pg 163) the Mind Mage from the Palladium RPG could use "Detect Psionics" to "easily detect and evaluate characters who have powerful Chi".

Wouldn't "See Aura" also show Chi?

Yes and one other one, I just used Detect Psionics as an example because it's the most controversial. But apparently only See Aura when used by the Mind Mage OCC, not See Aura used by anybody else.

That or, a Mind Mage doesn't actually have to USE it, just HAVE it. That's the main thing to resolve, whether or not the ISP cost and limited durations of the required powers apply to Chi Awareness.

I view Chi and ISP as being refinements of PPE

Isn't there supposed to be tiny amounts of chi in un-living objects though? Also how do you resolve the positive/negative flows in nature? That's raw, not unrefined. Caves v. Waterfalls and all that.

[Library Ogre]

I view Chi and ISP as being refinements of PPE

Isn't there supposed to be tiny amounts of chi in un-living objects though? Also how do you resolve the positive/negative flows in nature? That's raw, not unrefined. Caves v. Waterfalls and all that.

Refinement of potential psychic energy, but not necessarily an artificial refinement of such... more an alteration in its characteristics to better suit a certain purpose. In the case of Chi, it is not POTENTIAL psychic energy, but such energy actualized into life and unlife. Like PPE, it still flows through the physical world, with Dragon Line frequently (but not always) overlapping Ley Lines.

[Axelmania]

It makes me wonder when they talk about chi in rocks, if it's ALL rocks, or perhaps just rocks on planets with living beings on them. Like if the source of chi is PPE, but then after PPE refines into chi, it spreads all over the place. So maybe if it was some asteroid that had never been near living things ever it could be chiless.

[eliakon]

I would say that all three (CHI, ISP, and PPE) are basically forms of 'spiritual energy'. They are different, but related, kinds or 'flavors' of the same general thing.
Which is why they can all be used towards the same general purpose and can be converted into each other and all that other good stuff.
THAT said, they are not the same thing, just similar.

This is why they are set up differently, tracked differently, have different effects, and all the rest... because in the final analysis they are not the same things.

[Blue_Lion]

I remember some sore feelings about one of the books (I think Japan or China or Conversion Book) changing Chi from Ninjas and Super Spies into psi.

Japan uses PPE for the mystic martial arts powers, CB1r uses ISP, and I don't know about China.

However it should be remembered that ISP and PPE are "convertible" for some purposes usually 2ISP = 1 PPE). So the way I would treat Japan and CB1r (and by extension China) would be that the people have found different methods of "unlocking" said power/ability. This likely also indicates that ISP = PPE = Chi at some conversion rate (I'm not overly familiar with N&SS).

But upon reviewing the conversion notes in the back (pg 163) the Mind Mage from the Palladium RPG could use "Detect Psionics" to "easily detect and evaluate characters who have powerful Chi".

Wouldn't "See Aura" also show Chi?

But I agree with others in principle that it would be new.

There is no negative isp or PPE.

Nega Psychic and Psi Nullifier character classes in Rifts Psycape (WB12) beg to differ:
-pg58 "The expending on one P.P.E. point as negative energy will disrupt and dispell [i]three P.P.E. from the magic ritual or spell caster."
-pg66 "As a living battery of negative psychic energy"
-pg67 "he instinctively floods his attacker(s) with a wave of negative psychic energy.. This negative energy destroys positive psionic and magic energies, canceling them out completely or reducing their power", and later "releases enough negative psychic energy to cancel or diminish most psi-powers or magic spells used within his disruption range." Several more instances of this "negative ISP"

Now it does not function like Chi in the sense you track positive and negative pools and repercussions on them, but to say there is no "negative" ISP or PPE seems to be in error from a certain POV given that Nega-Psychics and Psi-Nullifiers are described as producing negative energy.

Because the race they are from is not inate negitive so they would not be able to heal with negitive chi so their PPE can be always charged with negative chi. All that quote means is he is converting it negitive energy the isp itself is not inate negitive.

Negative chi can disrupt positive chi and positive chi can disrupt negative. If they where negative they would be subject to having the isp whipped out by normal psi.

[Axelmania]

Positive Chi Mastery doesn't give you free Positive Chi Attack to destroy negative chi (except defensively) while Negative Chi Mastery does, perhaps ISP works the same way?

[Blue_Lion]

Positive Chi Mastery doesn't give you free Positive Chi Attack to destroy negative chi (except defensively) while Negative Chi Mastery does, perhaps ISP works the same way?

Negative chi attacks destroy chi in a person. Positive chi defense destroys chi directed towards you.(no one said anything gave you free attacks, do not build a straw man)
Nega Psi disrupts magic and psi in an area to prevent power use. A nega psi can not deplete a person ISP. As I recall they never say a nega psi has negative isp just that they can release it as a negative energy.
So they do not appear to work the same way.(If anything the nega psi power is closer to chi defense than chi attacks but still significant difference)
There may be similarities between ppe, isp and chi, but that does not make any of them the same. Each has its own flavor.


So my statement stands the combat rules are inconsistent with chi being isp.

[Axelmania]

By "free attack" I meant "gains the ability to do Negative Chi Attack for free when you have a Negative Chi Mastery", (similar to acrobatic's "automatic kick") sorry if that came across as "extra melee action" or anything like that.

I see your point, the Nega-Psychic's destruction of ISP targeting them works similarly to a Chi Master's use of Positive Chi destroying incoming Negative Chi. The only difference is they can target anywhere within 10 ft while the Chi Master can only defend himself.

Nega Psychic's ability to actively target ~150ft (if I'm remembering right) might be more analogous to the Negative Chi Master's NCA since you can offensively target potentially beneficial things.

[TechnoGothic]

ISP is "psychic" Energy you produce yourself.
PPE is "Potential Psychic" Energy you borrow from the Environment around yourself, Ley Lines, etc...
CHI is BOTH of the above actually at the same time. They generate their own psychic energy and can borrow it from the environment to perform feats, etc...

The way these energies manifest and are used by individuals are the biggest difference.

[Sgt Mushroom]

Chi is more like the energy of life. It is really neither ISP or PPE.

[Blue_Lion]

Chi is more like the energy of life. It is really neither ISP or PPE.

umm. close but every thing has chi. rocks have chi water ha chi. It is not just the energy of life. But it is not ISP or PPE

[eliakon]

Chi is more like the energy of life. It is really neither ISP or PPE.

umm. close but every thing has chi. rocks have chi water ha chi. It is not just the energy of life. But it is not ISP or PPE

And I would note... that rocks do not have ISP or PPE
To be 'the same thing' you would need to have PPE scores and ISP scores for everything, even rocks and water and air and....