Enchanted SDC ammo in a fully automatic weapon

[shadrak]

How do you manage the use of enchanted SDC ammo (2D6 MD) in an automatic weapon?

Short/Long bursts?

Ramjet+ Rules?

[dreicunan]

How do you manage the use of enchanted SDC ammo (2D6 MD) in an automatic weapon?

Short/Long bursts?

Ramjet+ Rules?

I suppose I would see what the sdc damage codes for said bursts are in comparison to a,single round, then extrapolate from there.

[eliakon]

It depends honestly.
My first instinct when people try this is to grab my MunchBat <tm> and smite first and ask questions later.
That is because I have yet to see anyone try and do this who is not trying to shenanigan the rules to let them do hundreds or thousands of MDC with each pull of the trigger.
I often just flatly don't let it work. When ask I say "its magic". I then point out that the gander rule means that if they are allowed to be running round with guns that do hundreds of MDC per pull, then NPCs will have the same weapons, and that usually makes the idea loose a lot of its appeal right there. After all most munchkins don't want to be just like everyone else. They want to be unique with moah powah than anyone else.

[Killer Cyborg]

How do you manage the use of enchanted SDC ammo (2D6 MD) in an automatic weapon?

Short/Long bursts?

Ramjet+ Rules?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here.

If you enchant ammo to inflict 2d6 MD per weapon, then as of RUE a short burst would typically do 2d6x2 MD, and a long burst (2 attacks) would typically inflict 2d6x3 MD.
That's pretty much all laid out in the skills and weapons you're dealing with.

Ramjets?
Well, unless there's an exception, they'd also do 2d6 MD as per the spell.

[Shark_Force]

It depends honestly.
My first instinct when people try this is to grab my MunchBat <tm> and smite first and ask questions later.
That is because I have yet to see anyone try and do this who is not trying to shenanigan the rules to let them do hundreds or thousands of MDC with each pull of the trigger.
I often just flatly don't let it work. When ask I say "its magic". I then point out that the gander rule means that if they are allowed to be running round with guns that do hundreds of MDC per pull, then NPCs will have the same weapons, and that usually makes the idea loose a lot of its appeal right there. After all most munchkins don't want to be just like everyone else. They want to be unique with moah powah than anyone else.

eh, i think you're overreacting quite a bit here.

first off, as KC points out, it isn't that powerful; you're looking at 6d6 damage at a cost of 2 actions, or 4d6 at a cost of one action, which is frankly not particularly impressive. it's a spell that can only be used once every 3 months to make 72 bullets, you have to somehow get access to a level 15 spell (which isn't easy for most spellcasters), and even if you're using the old burst rules it works out to be less damage than some of the energy pistols in the RMB. no, really... i'm not joking. the NG-57 has adequate range, and better damage than 2d6 per single shot. if you had an NG-L5 you could shoot around 50% further than the range of a typical assault rifle under palladium rules, and again, do more damage than 2d6 per single shot. and they both had "standard" rate of fire, meaning yes, they were burst-capable (even if you demand explicit burst capabilities - which, for the record, are not listed for the various fully automatic SDC weapons either, and the burst rules the game refers you to explicitly notes that you use them for semiautomatic weapons too - the juicer laser rifle comes with an underslung ion blaster that very explicitly does bursts, and again, a level 15 spell costs far more than the 40 grand it'll take to buy this superior weapon even if i have to buy myself a ton of e-clips. after all, i only have to be able to afford 3 e-clips every 3 months to wind up with more total ammo than the spell in question.

even if you go with the more generous interpretation that making a temporary magic weapon is somehow not making a magic weapon (it totally is, a temporary magic weapon is still a magic weapon) thus allowing you to use it as often as you can get both the PPE and enough time to use a ritual in safety, you'd be far better off the majority of the time learning sub-particle acceleration and using it to recharge e-clips at a fraction of the cost if you want to improve your effectiveness with ranged weapons. shorter casting time, lower PPE cost, and no need to carry around thousands of bullets that require both space and weight capacity to transport.

seriously, you need to take some time to think before you start accusing people of every gaming crime under the sun just because they asked a question.

[glitterboy2098]

"fully automatic" can also describe machineguns, which tend to do x5 on a 10-15 round burst and x10 on a 20-30 round burst. (reverse engineered fro mthe various entries in the game)

which would let you turn an M249 Squad Automatic Weapon Light MG into a weapon capable of outperforming every Man or PA portable railgun in the game short of the boomgun.

if that isn't munchkin, i don't know what is. and inevitably, when i've seen people bringing up enchanted ammo, that sort of OP combo is exactly what everyone wants to do. if not worse (like a frikken M134 Minigun gatling, which given the rate of fire, would have burst sizes 2-3 times as large, with commensurate damage increase.. which would quickly become the most destructive weapon in the game, short of city-killer nukes..

[ShadowLogan]

How do you manage the use of enchanted SDC ammo (2D6 MD) in an automatic weapon?

From the spell "Enchant Weapon (Minor)", it's a lot easier than one might think:
-15th level spell, so it isn't going to be very common or easy to find for a DIY role
-the bullets have a shelf life of 1month per caster level (so if you buy or find them it could be an issue)
-the ritual can only be performed ONCE every 3 months maximum, this can limit the supply w/o some assistance (multiple casters, TW)
-you only get a flat number of bullets per casting, which further limits ability to stockpile
-burst modes of attack eat up a lot of ammunition with a whole lot of missing. Look at the Heavy Caliber Machine Guns on pg329, it can fire a 30 round burst, but based on the damage assignments only like 5-7 rounds actually hit. The lighter automatic weapons are better, but you still have rounds missing. Which could make for an expensive investment
-while a hose rule option, these enchanted bullets can't mix their production lots (based on Casting time/caster). So Bob's casting 3 months ago can't be stored with the ones he just did (or Jane did). The Magic either cancels out, or the rounds are magically repealed by each other in the weapon (preventing loading). For lighter payload options it likely won't come up, but for capacities of greater than 72 it will be an issue. This is based partly on the Psi-Slinger Class in New West (who can only "enchant" up to a certain number of rounds)
-if purchasing the cost is likely going to be more than stock ammunition, and given rarity there might be cheaper options that perform as well or better (unless the target is vulnerable to magic)

[Shark_Force]

"fully automatic" can also describe machineguns, which tend to do x5 on a 10-15 round burst and x10 on a 20-30 round burst. (reverse engineered fro mthe various entries in the game)

which would let you turn an M249 Squad Automatic Weapon Light MG into a weapon capable of outperforming every Man or PA portable railgun in the game short of the boomgun.

if that isn't munchkin, i don't know what is. and inevitably, when i've seen people bringing up enchanted ammo, that sort of OP combo is exactly what everyone wants to do. if not worse (like a frikken M134 Minigun gatling, which given the rate of fire, would have burst sizes 2-3 times as large, with commensurate damage increase.. which would quickly become the most destructive weapon in the game, short of city-killer nukes..

yeah, that x10 on a 20-30 round burst? if this is based on the RUE firearms, that's 2-3 attacks worth. so no, not really better. it's competitive. 1d6x10 damage per action is certainly on the higher end of railgun damage. but given you get 2-3 bursts every 3 months, i'm not certain that remotely qualifies for outperforming much of anything.

if you really want to pump up your damage, hire some random schmuck and give them a really good laser rifle. +1d6x10 MD per action can be had much much cheaper than you're trying for.

[Killer Cyborg]

"fully automatic" can also describe machineguns, which tend to do x5 on a 10-15 round burst and x10 on a 20-30 round burst. (reverse engineered fro mthe various entries in the game)

which would let you turn an M249 Squad Automatic Weapon Light MG into a weapon capable of outperforming every Man or PA portable railgun in the game short of the boomgun.

Care to show your math on this?
Looking at the WP Heavy Military Weapons skill, a Light or Medium caliber machine gun normally does 5d6 per single shot, or 1d6x10 MD on a burst of 12 rounds. That's still basically x2 damage. The Magic Bullet equivalent would be 12 rounds for 4d6 MD.
A long burst of 36 rounds takes 3 attacks, and does 2d6x10+10 SDC. The Magic Bullet version would be about 2d6x5 MD, which would be about 12 MD per attack spent.

Heavy Caliber Machine Guns and Mini-Guns once again do about x2 damage on short bursts, and x5 on long bursts that take three melee attacks.



if that isn't munchkin, i don't know what is. and inevitably, when i've seen people bringing up enchanted ammo, that sort of OP combo is exactly what everyone wants to do. if not worse (like a frikken M134 Minigun gatling, which given the rate of fire, would have burst sizes 2-3 times as large, with commensurate damage increase.. which would quickly become the most destructive weapon in the game, short of city-killer nukes..[/quote]

[glitterboy2098]

reverse engineered from the actual weapons, not the WP entries. the WP entries for those don't actually match up to any of the actual weapons in the game, which tend to conform to the amounts i listed.. aside from some recent outliers, like the mercops 14.5mm weapons (where the writer seems to have been using house rules where literally every bullet in a burst hits)
the WP entries seem to be missing a zero in many cases.. probably due to the same sort of editing that put tank cannons in the early HU works as having little more damage than a hand grenade. downplaying powerful weapons in absurd fashion in order to prevent them being overly lethal to players, rather than trust GM's to avoid situations where that lethality will become an issue. (it also makes it ironic that these downgrades tended to show up alongside rules like 'point blank explosions' which upped the lethality of certain actions due to common sense, like throwing oneself onto a grenade. creating a situation where diving onto a grenade was more dangerous than being hit by a 105mm anti-tank shell)

"fully automatic" can also describe machineguns, which tend to do x5 on a 10-15 round burst and x10 on a 20-30 round burst. (reverse engineered fro mthe various entries in the game)

which would let you turn an M249 Squad Automatic Weapon Light MG into a weapon capable of outperforming every Man or PA portable railgun in the game short of the boomgun.

if that isn't munchkin, i don't know what is. and inevitably, when i've seen people bringing up enchanted ammo, that sort of OP combo is exactly what everyone wants to do. if not worse (like a frikken M134 Minigun gatling, which given the rate of fire, would have burst sizes 2-3 times as large, with commensurate damage increase.. which would quickly become the most destructive weapon in the game, short of city-killer nukes..

yeah, that x10 on a 20-30 round burst? if this is based on the RUE firearms, that's 2-3 attacks worth. so no, not really better. it's competitive. 1d6x10 damage per action is certainly on the higher end of railgun damage. but given you get 2-3 bursts every 3 months, i'm not certain that remotely qualifies for outperforming much of anything.

if you really want to pump up your damage, hire some random schmuck and give them a really good laser rifle. +1d6x10 MD per action can be had much much cheaper than you're trying for.

except that the current rules do not claim that such large bursts use multiple attacks. in fact, in the actual weapon write ups, they usually list them as single attacks, even the big bursts.
and if we go back to the old RMB rules for bursts. a full melee burst which does x10 still only costs 1 attack (see pg40), it just prevented that particular weapon from firing again that melee. since these rules applied to all weapons and were not based on specific number of rounds per burst, rather the proportion of the magazine, this meant that there was functionally no difference between a weapon firing 15 rounds and one firing 200 in terms of number of attacks (or of damage, one of the reasons that those old rules were dropped) note that those old rules also did not match up to the stats for specific weapons in the books, as you had weapons which were firing full burst damages but without the full burst 'once per melee' limitation

so the idea that extra large bursts use multiple attacks is incorrect, in either version of the rules. futher it makes no logial sense, as weapons with larger burst sizes invariable have them because they have higher rates of fire in rounds per minute. when a weapon can fire three or four or ten times faster, why would that burst take more actual time? especially when you have things like a gatling ,which can easily read thousands of rounds per minute.. it can get off a hundred rounds in less time than a non-gatling can get off 30, so why would the 100 round burst take more time in game?

[Killer Cyborg]

the idea that extra large bursts use multiple attacks is incorrect, in either version of the rules

I listed the page number that states the current burst rules for machine guns.
What more do you need...?

[Shark_Force]

i'm looking at my PDF of the RMB right now. a long burst does x5 damage for one action. an entire magazine can do x10 damage, and explicitly costs 2 actions. see page 33 where it has the rules for modern weapons.

in either case, you're getting 1d6x10 per action, and in either case, it still isn't outperforming cheap commonly available weapons that are many times easier to get ammunition for, because any "broken" amount of damage you could do with 2d6 MD enchanted bullets can be beaten with cheap, widely available energy weapons using cheap* widely available e-clips.

* cheap is relative, to be clear. i'm talking "cheap compared to the expected effort involved in obtaining either the spell or a supply of bullets from someone who can cast the spell, given that the spell is a level 15 ritual costing a large amount of PPE to cast and is only usable once every 3 months to make enough bullets for few bursts".


2d6 MD enchanted bullets are not broken. not in RMB. not in RUE.

[eliakon]

Just to be clear where I am coming from.
In literally every case this has ever been tried in a game I have been this has been used as a wedge to open the door. The claim starts "but these bullets are so hard to make and so rare, that its not a problem"
Then, like clockwork one of three things happens. They then get a TW device to mass produce them or they then get the Nightbane version of this spell or they turn to one of the various otherMD bullets (the one in the bionic finger being a perennial favorite).

At this point we now are swimming in MD ammunition. But what to shoot it with.
The normal munchkin response is to go for the .50 Caliber GECAL 50, Six Barrel, Machine Gun found on page 108 of the CoMW
With its lovely RoF of 8000 rounds per minute, we get a RoF of 2000 rounds per round.
Using the Machinegun/Minigun rate of fire modified for this particular weapon we get
132D6x10+1,320 for a full round burst... for a nice round 6k MD per round (okay so its only 5,940 but what's 60 MD at this point...)

Having seen this exact evolution no less than five times (with other lesser version even more often) I am profoundly leery of the claim that "it wont get out of hand" and "The amunition is rare and hard to get"

[Tiree]

I can't find my copy of RMB at the moment, but I did find my copy of the Sentinels (which has similar rules within it).

Sentinels: Page 47 - Rifles
Short Burst - 20% of Ammo/Magazine, x2 Damage, 1 Attack
Long Burst - 50% of Ammo/Magazine, x5 Damage, 1 Attack
Entire Magazine - 100% of Ammo/Magazine, x10 Damage, 2 Attacks

Sentinels: Page 47 - Machineguns
Short Burst - 10% of Ammo/Magazine, x2 Damage, 1 Attack
Long Burst - 30% of Ammo/Magazine, x5 Damage, 1 Attack
Empty Magazine - 100% of Ammo/Magazine, x20, All Actions for the Melee

All Damage multipliers is for 1 Round of Damage.

So a Machinegun that has all 72 Rounds of Magical MD Bullets, fires for the full Melee, at one target will do a bit more damage than a Boom Gun (2d6x20 = 4d6x10), but it blows all their actions, AND all their Ammo.

[shadrak]

*sigh*...

I believe somewhere in there someone asks why I ask this question...KC?

I am just trying to figure out what rules to use:

1 The RUE burst rules in ranged combat
2 Extrapolated rules from Ramjet Bursts (which would result in excessive damage)
3 Extrapolated rules from vehicle mounted machineguns/railguns
4 Or extrapolated damage from what is laid out in the RUE WPs.

My damage estimates for the four options:
1. Rapid fire pulses seem to be intended for laser-type weapons. If they were, the enchanted bullets would do 4D6 MD for a 3 round burst.
2. Ramjets extrapolated to 1MD per round and 2D4 MD per 20 round burst...extrapolating, a 20 round burst of enchanted bullets would do 2D4x7 or 2D4x2D6 damage (average 35 damage, max 96 damage)
3. Extrapolated Rail Gun damage to enchanted MG damage would be about 3D4x10 MD for 30 round burst (average 70 damage, max 120 damage)
4. Not particularly relevant because Palladium apparently assumes that weapon size corresponds to rate of fire, but if rate of fire option differences between assault rifles and machineguns is ignored this becomes what I believe is them most reasonable system for calculating damage. Plus, when you read the Palladium WP it seems clear that Palladium is not differentiating very well between semiautomatic weapons and rapid firing and true automatic weapons fire (automatic pistols can fire 3 round bursts? all semi automatic rifles can fire 3 and 6 round bursts?)
Assault rifle - 3 round burst = 4D6 MD
Assault rifle - 6 round burst (2 attacks) = 6D6 MD
Machinegun - 12 round burst (1 attack) = 4D6 MD
Machinegun - 36 round burst (3 attacks) = Approx. 1D6x10 MD
The big issue here is that it doesn't match ramjet and it treats semi-automatic and fully automatic weapons the same...and a cyclic rate of fire of 800 rounds per minute is damn near impossible with a semiautomatic weapon.

I am leaning towards option 4.

I don't like to have PC's facing large bands of enemy fighters that have MD weapons that they can sell for hundreds of thousands of credits. An E-Clip alone can be extremely valuable loot.

[eliakon]

*sigh*...

I believe somewhere in there someone asks why I ask this question...KC?

I am just trying to figure out what rules to use:

1 The RUE burst rules in ranged combat
2 Extrapolated rules from Ramjet Bursts (which would result in excessive damage)
3 Extrapolated rules from vehicle mounted machineguns/railguns
4 Or extrapolated damage from what is laid out in the RUE WPs.

My damage estimates for the four options:
1. Rapid fire pulses seem to be intended for laser-type weapons. If they were, the enchanted bullets would do 4D6 MD for a 3 round burst.
2. Ramjets extrapolated to 1MD per round and 2D4 MD per 20 round burst...extrapolating, a 20 round burst of enchanted bullets would do 2D4x7 or 2D4x2D6 damage (average 35 damage, max 96 damage)
3. Extrapolated Rail Gun damage to enchanted MG damage would be about 3D4x10 MD for 30 round burst (average 70 damage, max 120 damage)
4. Not particularly relevant because Palladium apparently assumes that weapon size corresponds to rate of fire, but if rate of fire option differences between assault rifles and machineguns is ignored this becomes what I believe is them most reasonable system for calculating damage. Plus, when you read the Palladium WP it seems clear that Palladium is not differentiating very well between semiautomatic weapons and rapid firing and true automatic weapons fire (automatic pistols can fire 3 round bursts? all semi automatic rifles can fire 3 and 6 round bursts?)
Assault rifle - 3 round burst = 4D6 MD
Assault rifle - 6 round burst (2 attacks) = 6D6 MD
Machinegun - 12 round burst (1 attack) = 4D6 MD
Machinegun - 36 round burst (3 attacks) = Approx. 1D6x10 MD
The big issue here is that it doesn't match ramjet and it treats semi-automatic and fully automatic weapons the same...and a cyclic rate of fire of 800 rounds per minute is damn near impossible with a semiautomatic weapon.

I am leaning towards option 4.

I don't like to have PC's facing large bands of enemy fighters that have MD weapons that they can sell for hundreds of thousands of credits. An E-Clip alone can be extremely valuable loot.

In this case, yeah, I would lean toward 4 myself. It would, in my opinion, definitely be a way to go.
I would also give bows a look. The various MD, trick and explosive arrows make them an interesting weapon to arm bandits and soldiers with.

[Shark_Force]

Just to be clear where I am coming from.
In literally every case this has ever been tried in a game I have been this has been used as a wedge to open the door. The claim starts "but these bullets are so hard to make and so rare, that its not a problem"
Then, like clockwork one of three things happens. They then get a TW device to mass produce them or they then get the Nightbane version of this spell or they turn to one of the various otherMD bullets (the one in the bionic finger being a perennial favorite).

At this point we now are swimming in MD ammunition. But what to shoot it with.
The normal munchkin response is to go for the .50 Caliber GECAL 50, Six Barrel, Machine Gun found on page 108 of the CoMW
With its lovely RoF of 8000 rounds per minute, we get a RoF of 2000 rounds per round.
Using the Machinegun/Minigun rate of fire modified for this particular weapon we get
132D6x10+1,320 for a full round burst... for a nice round 6k MD per round (okay so its only 5,940 but what's 60 MD at this point...)

Having seen this exact evolution no less than five times (with other lesser version even more often) I am profoundly leery of the claim that "it wont get out of hand" and "The amunition is rare and hard to get"

sounds like the problem has absolutely nothing to do with enchanted bullets, and everything to do with allowing a special gun into the game. i mean, if it works with the other MD bullets that you've mentioned, how does it matter in the slightest that there are enchanted bullets?

(also, how are they getting the nightbane version of enchant weapon? how do their characters know it exists, given it's the *nightbane* version, found in the *nightbane* dimension, through the mirrorwall that will destroy anything they bring through it (so they are going be popping up in the nightbane dimension naked, vulnerable to SDC weaponry since it isn't a MDC world even if the party shows up as MDC creatures, in a burst of magical energy which will probably be easy to detect, and then having somehow known to show up there they have to find someone in that setting who both knows the spell and is willing to give it to random naked people that they've never met in a world where people with spell knowledge and people who seek spell knowledge are actively being hunted by the nightlords and their many minions, and then somehow they have to get *back* into the rifts dimension... at which point they have a spell that never remotely says it makes the bullets deal MD, because it's from an SDC setting where such things are not a concern).

but seriously, the problem is the minigun you decided to add to your setting, which you then used unofficial rules to stat out, and give a ludicrously high amount of damage to. not the enchanted bullets.

[eliakon]

Just to be clear where I am coming from.
In literally every case this has ever been tried in a game I have been this has been used as a wedge to open the door. The claim starts "but these bullets are so hard to make and so rare, that its not a problem"
Then, like clockwork one of three things happens. They then get a TW device to mass produce them or they then get the Nightbane version of this spell or they turn to one of the various otherMD bullets (the one in the bionic finger being a perennial favorite).

At this point we now are swimming in MD ammunition. But what to shoot it with.
The normal munchkin response is to go for the .50 Caliber GECAL 50, Six Barrel, Machine Gun found on page 108 of the CoMW
With its lovely RoF of 8000 rounds per minute, we get a RoF of 2000 rounds per round.
Using the Machinegun/Minigun rate of fire modified for this particular weapon we get
132D6x10+1,320 for a full round burst... for a nice round 6k MD per round (okay so its only 5,940 but what's 60 MD at this point...)

Having seen this exact evolution no less than five times (with other lesser version even more often) I am profoundly leery of the claim that "it wont get out of hand" and "The amunition is rare and hard to get"

sounds like the problem has absolutely nothing to do with enchanted bullets, and everything to do with allowing a special gun into the game. i mean, if it works with the other MD bullets that you've mentioned, how does it matter in the slightest that there are enchanted bullets?

(also, how are they getting the nightbane version of enchant weapon? how do their characters know it exists, given it's the *nightbane* version, found in the *nightbane* dimension, through the mirrorwall that will destroy anything they bring through it (so they are going be popping up in the nightbane dimension naked, vulnerable to SDC weaponry since it isn't a MDC world even if the party shows up as MDC creatures, in a burst of magical energy which will probably be easy to detect, and then having somehow known to show up there they have to find someone in that setting who both knows the spell and is willing to give it to random naked people that they've never met in a world where people with spell knowledge and people who seek spell knowledge are actively being hunted by the nightlords and their many minions, and then somehow they have to get *back* into the rifts dimension... at which point they have a spell that never remotely says it makes the bullets deal MD, because it's from an SDC setting where such things are not a concern).

but seriously, the problem is the minigun you decided to add to your setting, which you then used unofficial rules to stat out, and give a ludicrously high amount of damage to. not the enchanted bullets.

I see you have never actually played at the same table as a rules layering munchkin.
The typical way that this works in games where I have watched GM after GM get suckered into this is like this:
-First is that the rare magic bullet is used to justify a bit of a higher damage bump for bursts. Its rare so that wont be an issue right?
-Then of course once they have the ruling that this rare bullet works like this, then they pull out the obscure other bullets that they had saved up for this occasion. Either another ammo, or the spell (usually done under the "well we can pick a spell of X level, and you already said we could pick from these other books so I'm picking this one)
-THEN they will go to one of the mentions in the various books referring us to the CoMW for additional guns as justification to be able to bring in those guns. Usually done earlier to get a slightly different pistol, or a shotgun or something.
-Then they whip out the Gatling gun, and point out that its game stats give it a specific RoF, so that its write up has this ludicrous RoF. Though they are just as apt to use all sorts of other machineguns or the like
-Then they proceed to either curbstomp stuff, or make the entire game a pain as they pitch a fit about how the GM is being arbitrary and unfair in undoing all the previous rulings he made and blah blah blah.

Hence when I GM I have very little patience for these sorts of shenanigans and, having seen many games derailed by them prefer to nip them in the bud before they become an issue. I am wise enough to learn from mistakes the first time (for the record my game experience was a munchkin trying to stack Triad Assassin, paired Calico Pistols, the Assassin burst, and MD bullets.) I however do not always run games. Not only do I sometimes actually *gasp* play in other peoples games, but I talk to fellow gamers who are willing to share horror stories of "great _____ broke the game with this minigun and now what".

As the OP seems to be going at it in reverse, aka they are trying to make a way to do a decent amount of damage with out having to give everyone and their dog a couple hundred thousand credits worth of gear it looks like less of an issue.

[Killer Cyborg]

*sigh*...

I believe somewhere in there someone asks why I ask this question...KC?

I am just trying to figure out what rules to use:

1 The RUE burst rules in ranged combat
2 Extrapolated rules from Ramjet Bursts (which would result in excessive damage)
3 Extrapolated rules from vehicle mounted machineguns/railguns
4 Or extrapolated damage from what is laid out in the RUE WPs.

Go with 4.
Or by specific weapon stats, if a specific weapon is being used.

[shadrak]

*sigh*...

I believe somewhere in there someone asks why I ask this question...KC?

I am just trying to figure out what rules to use:

1 The RUE burst rules in ranged combat
2 Extrapolated rules from Ramjet Bursts (which would result in excessive damage)
3 Extrapolated rules from vehicle mounted machineguns/railguns
4 Or extrapolated damage from what is laid out in the RUE WPs.

Go with 4.
Or by specific weapon stats, if a specific weapon is being used.

I think you are right, 4 is best, but I may have to modify it so that automatic weapons of all sorts meet the Machine gun rules limited only by magazine size.

I still thing the automatic fire rules are bad, though...this is an opportunity to make P.S. matter in the game--I wish RUE had introduced better ranged combat rules.

[Shark_Force]

I see you have never actually played at the same table as a rules layering munchkin.
The typical way that this works in games where I have watched GM after GM get suckered into this is like this:
-First is that the rare magic bullet is used to justify a bit of a higher damage bump for bursts. Its rare so that wont be an issue right?
-Then of course once they have the ruling that this rare bullet works like this, then they pull out the obscure other bullets that they had saved up for this occasion. Either another ammo, or the spell (usually done under the "well we can pick a spell of X level, and you already said we could pick from these other books so I'm picking this one)
-THEN they will go to one of the mentions in the various books referring us to the CoMW for additional guns as justification to be able to bring in those guns. Usually done earlier to get a slightly different pistol, or a shotgun or something.
-Then they whip out the Gatling gun, and point out that its game stats give it a specific RoF, so that its write up has this ludicrous RoF. Though they are just as apt to use all sorts of other machineguns or the like
-Then they proceed to either curbstomp stuff, or make the entire game a pain as they pitch a fit about how the GM is being arbitrary and unfair in undoing all the previous rulings he made and blah blah blah.

Hence when I GM I have very little patience for these sorts of shenanigans and, having seen many games derailed by them prefer to nip them in the bud before they become an issue. I am wise enough to learn from mistakes the first time (for the record my game experience was a munchkin trying to stack Triad Assassin, paired Calico Pistols, the Assassin burst, and MD bullets.) I however do not always run games. Not only do I sometimes actually *gasp* play in other peoples games, but I talk to fellow gamers who are willing to share horror stories of "great _____ broke the game with this minigun and now what".

As the OP seems to be going at it in reverse, aka they are trying to make a way to do a decent amount of damage with out having to give everyone and their dog a couple hundred thousand credits worth of gear it looks like less of an issue.

once again: this all boils down to "i allowed a gun that deals a bajillion damage into the game", not "enchanted bullets exist".

if you allow the gun that does as much damage as a single round times 200 with no drawbacks, it is a problem whether the enchant weapon spell is used or not. if you don't allow it, enchanted bullets don't cause problems.

if the gun without the bullets causes problems, and the bullets without the gun doesn't cause problems, then the problem is not the bullets, it's the gun.

if you say "no" to the bullets, they can still push for the gun, and the gun will still deal completely absurd damage if you give it completely absurd stats, with or without the enchanted bullets.

[Mlp7029]

How do you manage the use of enchanted SDC ammo (2D6 MD) in an automatic weapon?

From the spell "Enchant Weapon (Minor)", it's a lot easier than one might think:
-15th level spell, so it isn't going to be very common or easy to find for a DIY role
-the bullets have a shelf life of 1month per caster level (so if you buy or find them it could be an issue)
-the ritual can only be performed ONCE every 3 months maximum, this can limit the supply w/o some assistance (multiple casters, TW)
-you only get a flat number of bullets per casting, which further limits ability to stockpile
-burst modes of attack eat up a lot of ammunition with a whole lot of missing. Look at the Heavy Caliber Machine Guns on pg329, it can fire a 30 round burst, but based on the damage assignments only like 5-7 rounds actually hit. The lighter automatic weapons are better, but you still have rounds missing. Which could make for an expensive investment
-while a hose rule option, these enchanted bullets can't mix their production lots (based on Casting time/caster). So Bob's casting 3 months ago can't be stored with the ones he just did (or Jane did). The Magic either cancels out, or the rounds are magically repealed by each other in the weapon (preventing loading). For lighter payload options it likely won't come up, but for capacities of greater than 72 it will be an issue. This is based partly on the Psi-Slinger Class in New West (who can only "enchant" up to a certain number of rounds)
-if purchasing the cost is likely going to be more than stock ammunition, and given rarity there might be cheaper options that perform as well or better (unless the target is vulnerable to magic)

Not sure where some on your comments are coming from. The spell says

Bullets cannot be enchanted permanently; the magic is depleted once they are fired and hit something

. That seems very clear to me the bullets last until fired. My GM plays the once every three months applies to the permanent enchantment which permanently drains 2D4 PPE and it is that drain causing the recovery time. No reason why the temporary version which just uses PPE like any other spell should only work once every three months.

The biggest reason no one in our game uses enchanted bullets extensively is the cost. Using the 30-50 credits per PPE spent guideline from Arzno this spell costs 400 times 30-50 = 12,000-20,000 credits per casting or 167-278 credits per bullet. That's way more than railgun ammo.

[ShadowLogan]

@Mip7029
And the Duration of the spell is quite clear "One month per level of experience, or permanent." in the bold list above the fluff text. It doesn't make an exception for arrows or bullets.

It also says that "Bullets can not be enchanted permanently; the magic is depleted once they are fired and hit something". To me that just means the bullets hold the magic charge for either the 1 month per level OR until used the first time as the bullets are not recoverable (as magical item), which ever comes first.

As for the frequency of use, that IMHO is the GM's call on the last sentence in the paragraph. I read it as applying to both the temporary and permanent versions of the ritual.

[Mlp7029]

@Mip7029
And the Duration of the spell is quite clear "One month per level of experience, or permanent." in the bold list above the fluff text. It doesn't make an exception for arrows or bullets.

It also says that "Bullets can not be enchanted permanently; the magic is depleted once they are fired and hit something". To me that just means the bullets hold the magic charge for either the 1 month per level OR until used the first time as the bullets are not recoverable (as magical item), which ever comes first.

As for the frequency of use, that IMHO is the GM's call on the last sentence in the paragraph. I read it as applying to both the temporary and permanent versions of the ritual.

I agree this one is definitely in the GM call. As strictly written the spell is pretty useless and very confusing. I do not think as written it is worth even learning. A practically useless level 15 spell.

[shadrak]

@Mip7029
And the Duration of the spell is quite clear "One month per level of experience, or permanent." in the bold list above the fluff text. It doesn't make an exception for arrows or bullets.

It also says that "Bullets can not be enchanted permanently; the magic is depleted once they are fired and hit something". To me that just means the bullets hold the magic charge for either the 1 month per level OR until used the first time as the bullets are not recoverable (as magical item), which ever comes first.

As for the frequency of use, that IMHO is the GM's call on the last sentence in the paragraph. I read it as applying to both the temporary and permanent versions of the ritual.

I agree this one is definitely in the GM call. As strictly written the spell is pretty useless and very confusing. I do not think as written it is worth even learning. A practically useless level 15 spell.

For my purposes, I do not apply the 1 x per 4 months limit to temporary enchanted weapons mostly because it is a way to equip low-tech NPCs with weapons that have no resale value...though I agree that the language as written appears to apply to both temporary and permanent enchantment.

Using the spell in this manner, a small town or bandit group with a wizard can create an armory that includes a couple dozen melee weapons and a few thousand rounds of enchanted ammunition. Coupled with MDC wood or metal armor, this creates an opportunity to create a challenging situation for characters without enabling the characters to harvest NPC gear for resale.

The 400 PPE requirement is significant enough...especially when you consider the techno-wizard requirements for similar weapons.

If you figure you have a wizard with about 200 PPE per 20-man band of bandits with 10 PPE each, every 2 days you could enchant one thing. So, that is 15 things per month...which is less than 1 weapon per band member. If the goal is to create a force that is armed with enchanted swords (4D6 MD), knives (2D6 MD), and SDC firearms firing enchanted bullets (2D6; 4D6 short burst; 6D6 long burst) allowing for this becomes possible...

So you can have a 20-man band (lvl 3-5) with enough capability to challenge a PC group while keeping the wizard at level 3-5.

With regard to armor, I am planning to utilize MDC leather and Ironwood to create something roughly equal to Huntsman.

I have a scenario where the players need to infiltrate a castle and might have the opportunity to fight and win a pitched battle against a band of several hundred (about 400) marauders by assisting local militias in fighting the marauders...

I have been debating exactly what kind of equipment to give the marauders that won't create too much of an opportunity for the PC's to get millions of credits worth of loot when the militias can only pay less than 100,000 credits to the PCs for the assistance...

If I equip the marauders with E-Clips or Ramjets, then killing ten marauders will mean the loot from the NPCs will exceed the amount the militias can pay.

[Shark_Force]

@Mip7029
And the Duration of the spell is quite clear "One month per level of experience, or permanent." in the bold list above the fluff text. It doesn't make an exception for arrows or bullets.

It also says that "Bullets can not be enchanted permanently; the magic is depleted once they are fired and hit something". To me that just means the bullets hold the magic charge for either the 1 month per level OR until used the first time as the bullets are not recoverable (as magical item), which ever comes first.

As for the frequency of use, that IMHO is the GM's call on the last sentence in the paragraph. I read it as applying to both the temporary and permanent versions of the ritual.

I agree this one is definitely in the GM call. As strictly written the spell is pretty useless and very confusing. I do not think as written it is worth even learning. A practically useless level 15 spell.

how do you figure? it works quite adequately for archers (4d6 damage on a longbow is quite competitive with most laser rifles on a single shot basis, and unlike bullets, arrows have no limitation on reuse. indeed, they become MDC structures and are quite unlikely to break).

furthermore, if you can get your hands on a decent weapon, 6d6 damage is quite achievable. potentially in a one-handed weapon. and you only need to be level 3 to sustain it indefinitely (i'd be quite surprised if you're not level 3 by the time you have access to a spell this powerful).

furthermore, it isn't that hard to equip a group of bandits with MD weaponry regardless; talismans or scrolls of spells that give MD attacks like throwing stones as well as protective spells, stockpiled fire globe spells, ironwood armour enchanted with life ward allowing their personal SDC to protect them after the MDC is depleted, all kinds of stuff that is frankly more accessible than level 15 spell magic.

(and personally, if you want to go with powerful spell magic giving you a villain that might actually have a reason to hang around with a bunch of weak easily-intimidated untrained random schmucks, i think the transformation spell makes for a much better storytelling tool... now you know why they're following orders (nobody wants to 'volunteer' for the ritual), and there's a much more compelling reason for them to actually be willing to attack groups of people that are armed to the teeth when all they have is a handful of enchanted arrows and swords).

but, if you've absolutely got your heart set on someone using specifically this spell, just make liberal use of the ley line time capsule spell. you'll need to recast it every time the weapons are used, but you should be able to build up quite a stockpile of weapons over a period of time, and there is no limitation on recasting the time capsule spell. it can also be extended with "energize spell" to double the duration of active use.

[eliakon]

While the minigun is the outlier (I use it to demonstrate the end result that seems happen virtually every time a munchkin starts in on this)
Its not even required to use one.
The basic burst fire rules can allow for x3, x5, x7 or more rather easily. This stacks up pretty fast with just bog standard weapons.
And that's assuming that no one is playing around with shenanigans like time-holes, time-capsules, speeded weapons, or some of the other various shenanigans that can cause MD bullets to get out of hand rather quickly.
There are reasons that things like Ramjets have their own specifically delineated burst values... it is specifically to avoid this exact thing.
Which of course is the reason that every munchkin I have ever seen as instantly set to work to try and find a way to get around that limitation so that they can get personal arms that put out Boom-Gun (or better) levels of damage.
And THAT is why my first response to anyone bringing up "what is the damage output of Enchanted ammo in fully automatic weapons" is a reflexive smite first and ask questions second. Because in my experience it is almost never for an innocuous reason. Shadrak being the exception that proves the rule.

[Killer Cyborg]

While the minigun is the outlier (I use it to demonstrate the end result that seems happen virtually every time a munchkin starts in on this)
Its not even required to use one.
The basic burst fire rules can allow for x3, x5, x7 or more rather easily. This stacks up pretty fast with just bog standard weapons.
And that's assuming that no one is playing around with shenanigans like time-holes, time-capsules, speeded weapons, or some of the other various shenanigans that can cause MD bullets to get out of hand rather quickly.
There are reasons that things like Ramjets have their own specifically delineated burst values... it is specifically to avoid this exact thing.
Which of course is the reason that every munchkin I have ever seen as instantly set to work to try and find a way to get around that limitation so that they can get personal arms that put out Boom-Gun (or better) levels of damage.
And THAT is why my first response to anyone bringing up "what is the damage output of Enchanted ammo in fully automatic weapons" is a reflexive smite first and ask questions second. Because in my experience it is almost never for an innocuous reason. Shadrak being the exception that proves the rule.

Instead of nitpicking the details that I disagree on here,
I’ll just say that I agree with the heart of what you have to say, that Munchkins can be a relentless pain in the butt, and it’s often easier to nip things in the bud than to wait for them to get out of hand.
Each GM knows their own group or groups, and develops a feel for what kind of things are more trouble than they’re worth.
It doesn’t matter whether I think any group I might run would get out of hand because of this spell—what matters is that if s GM thinks it’s more trouble than its worth, a preemptive ban is perfectly reasonable.

[Shark_Force]

can't really agree.

the logic of "allowing this perfectly reasonable thing that doesn't cause any problems might lead to someone asking for something that isn't reasonable" leads pretty quickly to "i should just disallow everything", which kinda points to it not being good logic.

if the player is such a horrible munchkin that playing rifts with them is a miserable experience, don't play rifts with them. if you're worried about some other thing being asked for that isn't reasonable, then just deny the unreasonable requests.

and so far as i can tell, the standard burst fire rules* might allow for x3 or x5 damage (if you're using them any more given that RUE basically removed them from existence), but not x7 damage with a single action, and x5 damage with a single action is 1d6x10... again, quite impressive (that's as good as most of the better railguns, which is certainly respectable to say the least, though *still* not better than a good laser rifle), but not going to break your game for a handful of attacks per 3 in-game months, and is only possible if you somehow get your hands on a spell that is hard for the great majority of people to get their hands on.

particularly since with those same rules*, you can do x3 or x5 or x7 damage on any number of other perfectly standard weapons available from the start of the game with easily obtainable resources, far more often than a few times per 3 month period. heck, for x5 damage i can use the NG-P7 (rate of fire standard, right out of the RMB, using the burst rules found in the RMB) to dish out 5d4x10 damage (though considering that does more damage than the number of energy blasts you're expending, as a GM i would certainly be tweaking that specific example with a house rule).

* actually, i'm not sure what rules you're looking at for x3 or x7 damage at all. RMB has x2, x5, x10 (costing 2 actions) or even x20 (costing all actions) as options, but i don't see x3 or x7 in rifts at least.

[shadrak]

While the minigun is the outlier (I use it to demonstrate the end result that seems happen virtually every time a munchkin starts in on this)
Its not even required to use one.
The basic burst fire rules can allow for x3, x5, x7 or more rather easily. This stacks up pretty fast with just bog standard weapons.
And that's assuming that no one is playing around with shenanigans like time-holes, time-capsules, speeded weapons, or some of the other various shenanigans that can cause MD bullets to get out of hand rather quickly.
There are reasons that things like Ramjets have their own specifically delineated burst values... it is specifically to avoid this exact thing.
Which of course is the reason that every munchkin I have ever seen as instantly set to work to try and find a way to get around that limitation so that they can get personal arms that put out Boom-Gun (or better) levels of damage.
And THAT is why my first response to anyone bringing up "what is the damage output of Enchanted ammo in fully automatic weapons" is a reflexive smite first and ask questions second. Because in my experience it is almost never for an innocuous reason. Shadrak being the exception that proves the rule.

Those rules are no longer in effect with RUE...hence my question...using the old rules creates the potential for overpowered enchanted bullets.

Personally, I would prefer something between RUE and RMB as the Ramjet and Machineguns weapons imply in their damage.

[Killer Cyborg]

can't really agree.

the logic of "allowing this perfectly reasonable thing that doesn't cause any problems might lead to someone asking for something that isn't reasonable" leads pretty quickly to "i should just disallow everything", which kinda points to it not being good logic.

You just made a Slippery Slope fallacy, while talking about good logic.

if the player is such a horrible munchkin that playing rifts with them is a miserable experience, don't play rifts with them. if you're worried about some other thing being asked for that isn't reasonable, then just deny the unreasonable requests.

The thin line that seems to divide our views lies between "I wouldn't play that way" and/or "I wouldn't play with them," and in telling other people how to run their game, and who they should game with.

and so far as i can tell, the standard burst fire rules* might allow for x3 or x5 damage (if you're using them any more given that RUE basically removed them from existence), but not x7 damage with a single action, and x5 damage with a single action is 1d6x10... again, quite impressive (that's as good as most of the better railguns, which is certainly respectable to say the least, though *still* not better than a good laser rifle), but not going to break your game for a handful of attacks per 3 in-game months, and is only possible if you somehow get your hands on a spell that is hard for the great majority of people to get their hands on.

Agreed. x7 damage for 2 attacks isn't the same as just plain x7 damage. And 2d6x5 doesn't seem that bad.
Not when I'm gaming.
But Eliakon listed out other things that he thinks might be a factor, which means that at his table they probably would be.
Because everybody's table is different; everybody uses different house rules and house interpretations, and each one of those differences creates a host of other rippling changes throughout the game.
You mention the NG-P7 being able to do bursts, and a lot of people play it that way. A lot don't. It comes down to their interpretations of the rules, whether or not Heavy Energy weapons can perform bursts, and how they want to house rules things. At some tables, your point about the NG-P7 is perfectly valid. At others, it's not.
And the same goes for most or any points that can be made to try to counter what Eliakon is saying.
When he talks about "time-holes, time-capsules, speeded weapons," and such making things get out of hand, I don't know what he's talking about because none of those things would be a problem at my table--particularly in conjunction with Enchanted Bullets.
But that's MY table.
His game is going to be different from mine, just as mine is going to be different from yours.
And since I don't have a list or understanding of the countless house rules and house interpretations that his table uses--not to mention a list of which of the many variations of canon rules they're using--I'm not really qualified to tell him what to do.
None of us are.

All we can really logically say is, "Well, I don't see those things or combinations of things being an issue at MY table, but whatever. Good luck!"

* actually, i'm not sure what rules you're looking at for x3 or x7 damage at all. RMB has x2, x5, x10 (costing 2 actions) or even x20 (costing all actions) as options, but i don't see x3 or x7 in rifts at least.

That's from CB1, where they officially changed the x5 and x10 damages respectively.

[Killer Cyborg]

While the minigun is the outlier (I use it to demonstrate the end result that seems happen virtually every time a munchkin starts in on this)
Its not even required to use one.
The basic burst fire rules can allow for x3, x5, x7 or more rather easily. This stacks up pretty fast with just bog standard weapons.
And that's assuming that no one is playing around with shenanigans like time-holes, time-capsules, speeded weapons, or some of the other various shenanigans that can cause MD bullets to get out of hand rather quickly.
There are reasons that things like Ramjets have their own specifically delineated burst values... it is specifically to avoid this exact thing.
Which of course is the reason that every munchkin I have ever seen as instantly set to work to try and find a way to get around that limitation so that they can get personal arms that put out Boom-Gun (or better) levels of damage.
And THAT is why my first response to anyone bringing up "what is the damage output of Enchanted ammo in fully automatic weapons" is a reflexive smite first and ask questions second. Because in my experience it is almost never for an innocuous reason. Shadrak being the exception that proves the rule.

Those rules are no longer in effect with RUE...hence my question...using the old rules creates the potential for overpowered enchanted bullets.

Personally, I would prefer something between RUE and RMB as the Ramjet and Machineguns weapons imply in their damage.

I think that's the main question here: what end result would you prefer?
There are enough sets of rules to choose from, and enough logical house rule possibilities, that we can probably come up with a coherent means of getting those Enchanted Bullets into any power range you like.

[eliakon]

While the minigun is the outlier (I use it to demonstrate the end result that seems happen virtually every time a munchkin starts in on this)
Its not even required to use one.
The basic burst fire rules can allow for x3, x5, x7 or more rather easily. This stacks up pretty fast with just bog standard weapons.
And that's assuming that no one is playing around with shenanigans like time-holes, time-capsules, speeded weapons, or some of the other various shenanigans that can cause MD bullets to get out of hand rather quickly.
There are reasons that things like Ramjets have their own specifically delineated burst values... it is specifically to avoid this exact thing.
Which of course is the reason that every munchkin I have ever seen as instantly set to work to try and find a way to get around that limitation so that they can get personal arms that put out Boom-Gun (or better) levels of damage.
And THAT is why my first response to anyone bringing up "what is the damage output of Enchanted ammo in fully automatic weapons" is a reflexive smite first and ask questions second. Because in my experience it is almost never for an innocuous reason. Shadrak being the exception that proves the rule.

Those rules are no longer in effect with RUE...hence my question...using the old rules creates the potential for overpowered enchanted bullets.

Personally, I would prefer something between RUE and RMB as the Ramjet and Machineguns weapons imply in their damage.

A solution might be to borrow from the ramjets and simply make up a specific burst value for the bullets instead of a flat multiple.
Thus a burst of magic bullets does Xd6+Y damage and shoots Z rounds instead of Base*multiple.

[Shark_Force]

can't really agree.

the logic of "allowing this perfectly reasonable thing that doesn't cause any problems might lead to someone asking for something that isn't reasonable" leads pretty quickly to "i should just disallow everything", which kinda points to it not being good logic.

You just made a Slippery Slope fallacy, while talking about good logic.

if you're just applying this logic in spite of all evidence showing that something is not the problem in the first place, how do you know you're going to avoid the slippery slope? the thing with the slippery slope fallacy is that there needs to be something showing that the slope does not, in fact, exist. the slippery slope has to be false, otherwise you risk sliding down the whole thing just like you would if you jumped on an actual real life slippery slope.

if your logic does not actually prevent you from going down the slippery slope, you need to change the logic, not just blindly declare something to be a slippery slope fallacy and go on your merry way.

[Killer Cyborg]

can't really agree.

the logic of "allowing this perfectly reasonable thing that doesn't cause any problems might lead to someone asking for something that isn't reasonable" leads pretty quickly to "i should just disallow everything", which kinda points to it not being good logic.

You just made a Slippery Slope fallacy, while talking about good logic.

if you're just applying this logic in spite of all evidence showing that something is not the problem in the first place, how do you know you're going to avoid the slippery slope? the thing with the slippery slope fallacy is that there needs to be something showing that the slope does not, in fact, exist. the slippery slope has to be false, otherwise you risk sliding down the whole thing just like you would if you jumped on an actual real life slippery slope.

True.
And since your slippery slope is "leads pretty quickly to 'i should just disallow everything,'" I feel perfectly comfortable in saying that it does not in fact exist.
Nobody's talking about disallowing everything, and nobody ever will.
Especially not from something as benign as house-ruling a 15th level spell that isn't likely to come up much in the first place.

[shadrak]

While the minigun is the outlier (I use it to demonstrate the end result that seems happen virtually every time a munchkin starts in on this)
Its not even required to use one.
The basic burst fire rules can allow for x3, x5, x7 or more rather easily. This stacks up pretty fast with just bog standard weapons.
And that's assuming that no one is playing around with shenanigans like time-holes, time-capsules, speeded weapons, or some of the other various shenanigans that can cause MD bullets to get out of hand rather quickly.
There are reasons that things like Ramjets have their own specifically delineated burst values... it is specifically to avoid this exact thing.
Which of course is the reason that every munchkin I have ever seen as instantly set to work to try and find a way to get around that limitation so that they can get personal arms that put out Boom-Gun (or better) levels of damage.
And THAT is why my first response to anyone bringing up "what is the damage output of Enchanted ammo in fully automatic weapons" is a reflexive smite first and ask questions second. Because in my experience it is almost never for an innocuous reason. Shadrak being the exception that proves the rule.

Those rules are no longer in effect with RUE...hence my question...using the old rules creates the potential for overpowered enchanted bullets.

Personally, I would prefer something between RUE and RMB as the Ramjet and Machineguns weapons imply in their damage.

A solution might be to borrow from the ramjets and simply make up a specific burst value for the bullets instead of a flat multiple.
Thus a burst of magic bullets does Xd6+Y damage and shoots Z rounds instead of Base*multiple.

Thank you,

That is a pretty good solution.

For Ramjets, they do 1 MD each and a burst of 20 does 2D4 MD (2-8 with a mean value around 5). So, every 4 rounds fired equals 1 hit on average with the potential for it to equal almost 2 hits or as low as .5 hits.

The Ramjet description in Mercenaries does not identify the number of attacks required of each burst. Using a solution like you suggest, I am comfortable with the following in a fully automatic weapon (and I would use "regular" burst rules for semi-automatics):

5 round burst = 1 attack = 4D4 MD
10 round burst = 1 attack = 5D6 MD
20 round burst = 1 attack = 1D6 x 10 MD

If necessary, I could just set a standard burst rate of about 10 (5D6 MD). This would give relatively effective assault rifles, would consume most ammunition quickly, and would result in an environment where the PCs wouldn't have access to excessive loot.


If I were writing generic automatic fire rules for Palladium, I would have just created a recoil system that applied a penalty for to-hit.

Example: M16 has a recoil value (RV) of 3; every round fired is 4 RV; Physical Strength - Total Recoil Value for Burst equals total penalty for each round fired in the burst; each round to-hit is rolled individually

Player has P.S.=11. Player fires 3-round burst. Shots are resolved with 3 individual rolls as though they are burst fire. Had the burst been a 5-round burst the penalty would be a -4 to-hit penalty for each round. If P.S. was lower, there would be higher penalties. These penalties would not apply to SN and Robotic PS.

Alternatively, you could just apply an additional hit penalty based on burst size, -2 for bursts up to 3 rounds, -3 for 4-7 rounds, -4 for 8-15 rounds, etc.