p.p. bonus to bows

[sargent26]

16. Does a P.P. bonus add to the strike when using a bow or crossbow? I never thought that it did, but in the new PFRPG, there is one paragraph about modern weapon proficiencies, where it says that you do. Could you clear this up for me?
Answer: The P.P. strike bonus is not applied when using a bow or crossbow.

why not. the p.p. bonuse is for better hand to eye. it should work on anything you use out side of stuff with wepon systems.

an why wouldnt a high p.s. add to the use of a bow. its your p.s that is pulling it. thanks for any help

[Blue_Lion]

PS beyond what is needed to pull the string back does not mater. The strength of bow shot is set by the bow.

What does rifts say about it.
PG 328
"No P.S. Damage Bonus: The damage bonus for Strength does NOT apply to arrows fired from a bow, or from a thrown weapon unless the "

The skill archery does not address PP.
Combat only states it does not apply to guns.

Bows are more about a steady shot than a hand eye coordination.

[sargent26]

i shot bows its hand eye cordination to hit your target an your str has a factor when using a real bow thats why im asking

[42dragon]

Yes, Bows get to add the PP bonus. From RUE pg 326 all ancient WP get to add the PP bonus, along with OCC, and HTH combat skill. And from Palladium 2e pg 59, All bonus are cumulative. except for modern weapons.

[sargent26]

Yes, Bows get to add the PP bonus. From RUE pg 326 all ancient WP get to add the PP bonus, along with OCC, and HTH combat skill. And from Palladium 2e pg 59, All bonus are cumulative. except for modern weapons.

thanks what about ps

[Blue_Lion]

i shot bows its hand eye cordination to hit your target an your str has a factor when using a real bow thats why im asking

Strength is only a factor to meet the stregth of the bow. If I can use a bow with a 60 pound draw but I am using a bow with a 35 pound draw it hits with the force of a 35 pound draw not 60 pound draw. All strength beyond what is needed to pull the string has no affect on the force of the arrow.(honestly having exerince with thrown weapons, guns and bows. Hand to eye defiantly determines the chance to hit. while guns and bows you basically try to hold it steady and use visual points of refence to aim(with bows you use a mark on the string or a feather with a different color and a the front of the bow your hand or aim point), so PP should apply as much to bows as guns.)

[Blue_Lion]

Yes, Bows get to add the PP bonus. From RUE pg 326 all ancient WP get to add the PP bonus, along with OCC, and HTH combat skill. And from Palladium 2e pg 59, All bonus are cumulative. except for modern weapons.

thanks what about ps

RUE page 328 states you do not get a bonus to damage from PS. I have already quoted this to you. It clearly says no PS bonus for arrows fired from a bow.

[Axelmania]

Yes, Bows get to add the PP bonus.
From RUE pg 326 all ancient WP get to add the PP bonus, along with OCC, and HTH combat skill.

The actual text is:

Bonuses that increase for that particular weapon are accumulative and are combined with the character's P.P. attribute, O.C.C., and Hand to Hand Combat skill bonuses.

That isn't a guarantee that these three things (P/O/H) necessarily apply to every ancient weapon though, if we are told otherwise under specific circumstances.

Consider page 328:

A thrown weapon is considered a ranged attack, however the P.P. attribute bonus to strike does apply

This implies that ranged attacks as a default do not benefit from the PP bonus to strike. Since the Archery skill does not have a disclaimer like the Throwing skill, I am inclined to think it is no such exception.

The rules for Ranged Combat begin on page 360, and this quote form page 361 (Weapon Modifiers) is important:

Bonuses: The only bonuses that apply to using guns and other ranged weapons are the specific Weapon Proficiency, Sniping skill bonus if the character has the skill, any applicable bonus from the weapon itself, and the ones that follow

Page 309 (Espionage Skills) definition of the Sniper skill:

This skill represents special training in long-range shooting and marksmanship.
Only weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/round or blast can be used for sniping;
no automatic burst firing.
Acceptable weapons include bow and arrows, crossbows

Arrows and crossbow bolts are "single round" and use standard Ranged Combat rules, so the only bonuses which you can use for them come from 3 possible places: WP, Sniping, or the Weapon.

The only exception I would make for this are when we are specifically told about ranged combat bonuses in unusual situations. For example:

*Page 348 at 8th level Hand to Hand: Assassin gives "+1 to strike with guns" (though this wouldn't apply to arrows)
*World Book 16 (Federation of Magic Revised) page 75 the Controller OCC under "Controller OCC Bonuses" has a bonus to strike on a "called shot" or any carefully aimed attack
*World Book 17 (Warlords of Russia) page 82 the Reaver Assassin OCC has a bonus "to strike with ranged weapons or in hand to hand combat."
*World Book 21 (Splynn Dimensional Market) page 108 the Tattooed Archer OCC under "RCC Bonuses" (typo?) a bonus to disarm with a "called" shot from an arrow

I believe when it is this specific (generic bonuses to strike or disarm which do not specify "ranged" or "guns" or "arrow" would not be) it would qualify as a 4th circumstance (OCC bonus) where you would be allowed to add the bonus.

PP are a basic rule though, not an extraneous World Book exception, so if they were allowed they would've been mentioned on RUE 361, and they are not, so they do not apply.

from Palladium 2e pg 59, All bonus are cumulative. except for modern weapons.

Where oddly enough, "W.P. Modern Weapons (guns!):" on page 60 specifies PP bonuses and the Targeting skill apply to guns:

Using a gun by the average untrained character is relatively simple: point and shoot.
Each squeeze of the trigger fires one shot and counts as one melee attack/action.
Normal strike bonuses from hand to hand combat skills do NOT apply,
but bonuses from a high P.P. attribute or the targeting skill do count.

I don't see anything there saying bonuses aren't cumulative for modern weapons, just that HtH bonuses don't apply to them. This makes me wonder if we're meant to assume that HtH bonuses apply to all other weapons, such as bows, or if that is specified anywhere.

Given the semantic "hand to hand" I would not apply these bonuses in Palladium Fantasy unless the user were unarmed and their opponent were unarmed. Unless it specifically says somewhere to apply HTH bonuses when using weapons.

Page 83's description of the Long Bowman doesn't appear to imply anywhere adding HTH bonuses. There are OCC skills of Sniper and WP for Archery (all bows) and Targeting, and a special OCC ability "Special Aimed Shot" which replaced Archery when using a longbow, but that's about it. Unless there's some NPC example where HTH are clearly incorporated, I would figure they are not.

[shadrak]

Yes, Bows get to add the PP bonus.
From RUE pg 326 all ancient WP get to add the PP bonus, along with OCC, and HTH combat skill.

The actual text is:

Bonuses that increase for that particular weapon are accumulative and are combined with the character's P.P. attribute, O.C.C., and Hand to Hand Combat skill bonuses.

That isn't a guarantee that these three things (P/O/H) necessarily apply to every ancient weapon though, if we are told otherwise under specific circumstances.

Consider page 328:

A thrown weapon is considered a ranged attack, however the P.P. attribute bonus to strike does apply

This implies that ranged attacks as a default do not benefit from the PP bonus to strike. Since the Archery skill does not have a disclaimer like the Throwing skill, I am inclined to think it is no such exception.

The rules for Ranged Combat begin on page 360, and this quote form page 361 (Weapon Modifiers) is important:

Bonuses: The only bonuses that apply to using guns and other ranged weapons are the specific Weapon Proficiency, Sniping skill bonus if the character has the skill, any applicable bonus from the weapon itself, and the ones that follow

Page 309 (Espionage Skills) definition of the Sniper skill:

This skill represents special training in long-range shooting and marksmanship.
Only weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/round or blast can be used for sniping;
no automatic burst firing.
Acceptable weapons include bow and arrows, crossbows

Arrows and crossbow bolts are "single round" and use standard Ranged Combat rules, so the only bonuses which you can use for them come from 3 possible places: WP, Sniping, or the Weapon.

The only exception I would make for this are when we are specifically told about ranged combat bonuses in unusual situations. For example:

*Page 348 at 8th level Hand to Hand: Assassin gives "+1 to strike with guns" (though this wouldn't apply to arrows)
*World Book 16 (Federation of Magic Revised) page 75 the Controller OCC under "Controller OCC Bonuses" has a bonus to strike on a "called shot" or any carefully aimed attack
*World Book 17 (Warlords of Russia) page 82 the Reaver Assassin OCC has a bonus "to strike with ranged weapons or in hand to hand combat."
*World Book 21 (Splynn Dimensional Market) page 108 the Tattooed Archer OCC under "RCC Bonuses" (typo?) a bonus to disarm with a "called" shot from an arrow

I believe when it is this specific (generic bonuses to strike or disarm which do not specify "ranged" or "guns" or "arrow" would not be) it would qualify as a 4th circumstance (OCC bonus) where you would be allowed to add the bonus.

PP are a basic rule though, not an extraneous World Book exception, so if they were allowed they would've been mentioned on RUE 361, and they are not, so they do not apply.

from Palladium 2e pg 59, All bonus are cumulative. except for modern weapons.

Where oddly enough, "W.P. Modern Weapons (guns!):" on page 60 specifies PP bonuses and the Targeting skill apply to guns:

Using a gun by the average untrained character is relatively simple: point and shoot.
Each squeeze of the trigger fires one shot and counts as one melee attack/action.
Normal strike bonuses from hand to hand combat skills do NOT apply,
but bonuses from a high P.P. attribute or the targeting skill do count.

I don't see anything there saying bonuses aren't cumulative for modern weapons, just that HtH bonuses don't apply to them. This makes me wonder if we're meant to assume that HtH bonuses apply to all other weapons, such as bows, or if that is specified anywhere.

Given the semantic "hand to hand" I would not apply these bonuses in Palladium Fantasy unless the user were unarmed and their opponent were unarmed. Unless it specifically says somewhere to apply HTH bonuses when using weapons.

Page 83's description of the Long Bowman doesn't appear to imply anywhere adding HTH bonuses. There are OCC skills of Sniper and WP for Archery (all bows) and Targeting, and a special OCC ability "Special Aimed Shot" which replaced Archery when using a longbow, but that's about it. Unless there's some NPC example where HTH are clearly incorporated, I would figure they are not.

I'm away from being able to check my copy of the Rue, but what happens when you compare targeting and archery?

A thrown weapon, if I recall correctly, does get the pp bonus through the original WP for that kind of weapon. Bows / archery are their own kind of weapons, but I believe the write-up implies a PP bonus.

[Blue_Lion]

Yes, Bows get to add the PP bonus.
From RUE pg 326 all ancient WP get to add the PP bonus, along with OCC, and HTH combat skill.

The actual text is:

Bonuses that increase for that particular weapon are accumulative and are combined with the character's P.P. attribute, O.C.C., and Hand to Hand Combat skill bonuses.

That isn't a guarantee that these three things (P/O/H) necessarily apply to every ancient weapon though, if we are told otherwise under specific circumstances.

Consider page 328:

A thrown weapon is considered a ranged attack, however the P.P. attribute bonus to strike does apply

This implies that ranged attacks as a default do not benefit from the PP bonus to strike. Since the Archery skill does not have a disclaimer like the Throwing skill, I am inclined to think it is no such exception.

The rules for Ranged Combat begin on page 360, and this quote form page 361 (Weapon Modifiers) is important:

Bonuses: The only bonuses that apply to using guns and other ranged weapons are the specific Weapon Proficiency, Sniping skill bonus if the character has the skill, any applicable bonus from the weapon itself, and the ones that follow

Page 309 (Espionage Skills) definition of the Sniper skill:

This skill represents special training in long-range shooting and marksmanship.
Only weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/round or blast can be used for sniping;
no automatic burst firing.
Acceptable weapons include bow and arrows, crossbows

Arrows and crossbow bolts are "single round" and use standard Ranged Combat rules, so the only bonuses which you can use for them come from 3 possible places: WP, Sniping, or the Weapon.

The only exception I would make for this are when we are specifically told about ranged combat bonuses in unusual situations. For example:

*Page 348 at 8th level Hand to Hand: Assassin gives "+1 to strike with guns" (though this wouldn't apply to arrows)
*World Book 16 (Federation of Magic Revised) page 75 the Controller OCC under "Controller OCC Bonuses" has a bonus to strike on a "called shot" or any carefully aimed attack
*World Book 17 (Warlords of Russia) page 82 the Reaver Assassin OCC has a bonus "to strike with ranged weapons or in hand to hand combat."
*World Book 21 (Splynn Dimensional Market) page 108 the Tattooed Archer OCC under "RCC Bonuses" (typo?) a bonus to disarm with a "called" shot from an arrow

I believe when it is this specific (generic bonuses to strike or disarm which do not specify "ranged" or "guns" or "arrow" would not be) it would qualify as a 4th circumstance (OCC bonus) where you would be allowed to add the bonus.

PP are a basic rule though, not an extraneous World Book exception, so if they were allowed they would've been mentioned on RUE 361, and they are not, so they do not apply.

from Palladium 2e pg 59, All bonus are cumulative. except for modern weapons.

Where oddly enough, "W.P. Modern Weapons (guns!):" on page 60 specifies PP bonuses and the Targeting skill apply to guns:

Using a gun by the average untrained character is relatively simple: point and shoot.
Each squeeze of the trigger fires one shot and counts as one melee attack/action.
Normal strike bonuses from hand to hand combat skills do NOT apply,
but bonuses from a high P.P. attribute or the targeting skill do count.

I don't see anything there saying bonuses aren't cumulative for modern weapons, just that HtH bonuses don't apply to them. This makes me wonder if we're meant to assume that HtH bonuses apply to all other weapons, such as bows, or if that is specified anywhere.

Given the semantic "hand to hand" I would not apply these bonuses in Palladium Fantasy unless the user were unarmed and their opponent were unarmed. Unless it specifically says somewhere to apply HTH bonuses when using weapons.

Page 83's description of the Long Bowman doesn't appear to imply anywhere adding HTH bonuses. There are OCC skills of Sniper and WP for Archery (all bows) and Targeting, and a special OCC ability "Special Aimed Shot" which replaced Archery when using a longbow, but that's about it. Unless there's some NPC example where HTH are clearly incorporated, I would figure they are not.

I'm away from being able to check my copy of the Rue, but what happens when you compare targeting and archery?

A thrown weapon, if I recall correctly, does get the pp bonus through the original WP for that kind of weapon. Bows / archery are their own kind of weapons, but I believe the write-up implies a PP bonus.

Nothing in the write up of archery has any refences to PP bonuses. So there is no implied text. The only bonuses adressed are per level strike.


The wording in targeting does that allows PP specifies thrown weapons. The inclusion line about PP bonuses starts with however, that indicates a acceptation the normal rules for the addressed topic. In this case the address topic of the paragraph was thrown weapons. So no implied inclusion of archery there.

[Axelmania]

The confusion is in 1990's RMB there was "Archery and Targeting" but in 2005's RUE there is now Bow skill and Targeting skill separate.

[Blue_Lion]

The confusion is in 1990's RMB there was "Archery and Targeting" but in 2005's RUE there is now Bow skill and Targeting skill separate.

The earliest separation I know of bows and thrown weapons in rifts was rifts japan.
The original name made it sound like it was two skills rolled into one.


I think the confusion is partially because of how the rules are written with the skills in one location, and labeling of ancient weapons while having the rules for ranged attacks buried in rules for modern weapons.

[eliakon]

From what I can understand.
PP applies to all unarmed attacks; and to all attacks with ancient weapons both melee, and ranged such as bows and thrown knives.
It does not apply to guns or other modern weapons ever except in Palladium Fantasy and Splicers.
The question on things like spells, psionics, super powers and the like is a bit hazier. I suggest consulting either your GM or a Magic 8-Ball (or possibly both...)