Extra Attack/Action per melee with Boxing

[jburkett]

Hello, I remember seeing some debate about this on an earlier thread (perhaps on another forum) and wondered if there has ever been a decisive ruling. Is the extra attack/action that comes with Boxing for Hand to Hand/melee weapons only or does it also apply to ranged attacks as well? Thanks!

[Eagle]

It applies to everything. If it didn't, it would specifically say that it only applied to hand to hand.

If it helps you visualize it better, being trained in boxing may help you think on your feet faster.

[jburkett]

It applies to everything. If it didn't, it would specifically say that it only applied to hand to hand.

If it helps you visualize it better, being trained in boxing may help you think on your feet faster.

Okay, that is how I figured it. So, the earlier post that I saw was erroneous. Thanks!

[Blue_Lion]

The only ruling I know of that says it is limited if found in on the main page cutting room floor in the faq. It has a ruling that limits it to melee attacks, that does make sense but it is a highly debated subject.

[13eowulf]

For direct reference:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

30. Does the boxing skill add an attack at all times or just during melee that doesn't involve missile weapons?
Answer: Only during melee weapons combat it does not apply to any form of ranged combat

This is on the Official web site, which also has official errata and other non-forum FAQs.
It also directly contradicts what Eagle stated as fact above. Apparently erroneously so.

[Blue_Lion]

For direct reference:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

30. Does the boxing skill add an attack at all times or just during melee that doesn't involve missile weapons?
Answer: Only during melee weapons combat it does not apply to any form of ranged combat

This is on the Official web site, which also has official errata and other non-forum FAQs.
It also directly contradicts what Eagle stated as fact above. Apparently erroneously so.

People debate weither or not that faq is valid. So the two of you are mearly stating your opions on something that is higly debated here.

[jburkett]

Well, I would think that if any hand-to-hand skill (Basic, Expert, etc.) determines your base number of attacks/actions per melee regardless if the attack is melee or ranged combat then I have no problem extending this logic to boxing. Do some see boxing as different or more limited in this regard? Thanks for your input.

[13eowulf]

For direct reference:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

30. Does the boxing skill add an attack at all times or just during melee that doesn't involve missile weapons?
Answer: Only during melee weapons combat it does not apply to any form of ranged combat

This is on the Official web site, which also has official errata and other non-forum FAQs.
It also directly contradicts what Eagle stated as fact above. Apparently erroneously so.

People debate weither or not that faq is valid. So the two of you are mearly stating your opions on something that is higly debated here.

What I was referring to as erroneous was making the opinion a statement of fact.
For this particular rule I have used it both ways both as a player and GM. I was not stating one way or the other what my thoughts were, just pointing out the location of the FAQ, and the text, and that the existence of that text, in that location, renders Eagle's statement of fact erroneous as a statement of fact.

Though to address the status of the FAQs as highly debated, it really matters not how highly debated they are. The FAQs that are part of the Cutting Room Floor are, in fact, a part of the cutting room floor, and on the first page of the Cutting Room Floor, at the top, we find this statement:

On the "cutting room floor," you will find things that went out of print, were forgotten or left out for other reasons, along with general errata and excluded material from various books.

Which is pretty clear.

[13eowulf]

Well, I would think that if any hand-to-hand skill (Basic, Expert, etc.) determines your base number of attacks/actions per melee regardless if the attack is melee or ranged combat then I have no problem extending this logic to boxing. Do some see boxing as different or more limited in this regard? Thanks for your input.

Except there is a section for people who don't have a hand-to-hand skill, as not everyone does. And there are other examples in other books of items providing additional attacks to only certain types of actions. Granted the RUE has rendered moot many of the items regarding 'number of spells able to cast', among other such similar items, from older books.

[Eagle]

Well then I stand corrected. People will argue over any damn thing.

[Mack]

Hello, I remember seeing some debate about this on an earlier thread (perhaps on another forum) and wondered if there has ever been a decisive ruling. Is the extra attack/action that comes with Boxing for Hand to Hand/melee weapons only or does it also apply to ranged attacks as well? Thanks!

I chalk it up to the character being more comfortable in combat (mentally) and thus is able to get off one more attack.

Shrug. As long as you’re consistent it shouldn’t matter.

[Killer Cyborg]

1. The old FAQ was written by fans (not staff) who only sometimes knew what they were talking about.
Unless it cites some kind of canon source, it's best ignored.

2. Boxing increases the number of HTH attacks.
The number of ranged attacks a person has is based on the number of HTH attacks they have, except in cases where there's a Rate of Fire, such as Archery.
But for modern weapons, look at RUE 361:
Single Shot: The standard, non-Aimed, non-burst, single firing of a ranged weapon counts as one melee attack.
Same with Rapid-fire pulse: "it counts as one melee attack."
An Aimed Shot "counts as two melee attacks."
A simultaneous dual-blast "counts as one melee attack."
A Called Shot "counts as two melee attacks."

In short:
Boxing necessarily adds to your number of ranged attacks, because ranged attacks necessarily use melee attacks.

In fact, there is no such thing as "ranged attacks" in their own right. They're just melee attacks, used to fire ranged weapons.

[shadrak]

Boxing applies to ranged attacks...

It is a flaw in the Palladium system...

After all, Hand to Hand skill is HAND TO HAND (not ranged), yet it applies to ranged attacks.

If you would like an alternative that makes more sense but is even more complicated than the current canon system, there is a system in the Rifter.

[Axelmania]

1. The old FAQ was written by fans (not staff) who only sometimes knew what they were talking about.
Unless it cites some kind of canon source, it's best ignored.

Regardless of who wrote it, it has been canonized. The list all sounds affirmed to me:

out of print
forgotten
left out for other reasons
general errata
excluded material

This sounds about on par with the Russian Gods who were not printed in Mystic Russia. The gods were "excluded material" and "left out for other reasons" namely being space restrictions.

Boxing necessarily adds to your number of ranged attacks, because ranged attacks necessarily use melee attacks.

There are other cases besides boxing where we are explicitly told that bonus attacks can only be made a certain way. "Extra attack with tail" or "extra attack with fire breath" wouldn't increase ranged attacks with guns either. The only issue with boxing is that it was either forgotten or left out because it seemed like common sense to the writer that people would not assume it helped with guns.

[Eagle]

This sounds about on par with the Russian Gods who were not printed in Mystic Russia. The gods were "excluded material" and "left out for other reasons" namely being space restrictions.

Boxing necessarily adds to your number of ranged attacks, because ranged attacks necessarily use melee attacks.

There are other cases besides boxing where we are explicitly told that bonus attacks can only be made a certain way. "Extra attack with tail" or "extra attack with fire breath" wouldn't increase ranged attacks with guns either. The only issue with boxing is that it was either forgotten or left out because it seemed like common sense to the writer that people would not assume it helped with guns.

And yet, in the current rules being good at karate makes you cast spells faster.

[Axelmania]

Spellcasting is presumed to be done with hand movements, I don't see a problem. Logically it wouldn't help (just like Boxing) if you were somehow still able to cast spells with your hands bound.

[Eagle]

Spellcasting is presumed to be done with hand movements, I don't see a problem. Logically it wouldn't help (just like Boxing) if you were somehow still able to cast spells with your hands bound.

Shooting a gun uses hand movements too. Psychic powers are also sped up by being good with karate.

[Axelmania]

Presumably the hand gestures that are usually part of the spellcasting process involve arm movements which resemble boxing/karate punches/blocks in a way that pointing a gun or pulling a trigger does not.

After 164/289, looking at RUE 366, it says "each psionic attack counts as one melee attack/action" but it doesn't necessarily say that you can use any attack/action to make a psionic attack. If you had "+1 attack with guns only" you couldn't use it for psi, after all, unless the GM made an exception say for using TK to fire a gun.

I would think then that the bonus attack would only apply under the standard Cutting Room restrictions of it being melee combat only. So it could probably be used for Telekinetic Leap / Punch / Push so long as you were using touch-only and not the 1ft/level version. It would make sense to allow it for manipulations of arm-like ectoplasm too, but not for telekinetically manipulating objects. I don't think your Boxing attack could be used to create a Psi-Shield, but I do think it could be used to parry with one.

[StormSeeker]

If it helps you visualize it better, being trained in boxing may help you think on your feet faster.

The part of that which has never made sense to me is why boxing only. Shouldn't kickboxing give the same? What about aikido or karate?
Ever watch olympic fencing? That's fast. Much more so than you see in typical movies. But no other non-hth physical skill gives a bonus attack.

I've always though boxing should either be a part of hth:expert, or it's own martial arts skill.

[Axelmania]

RUE 316 doesn't specify that "automatically knockout opponents on a roll of a Natural Twenty" applies to punches, so I am going to assume this also applies when using swords, thrown rocks and laser pistols as well.

[dreicunan]

RUE 316 doesn't specify that "automatically knockout opponents on a roll of a Natural Twenty" applies to punches, so I am going to assume this also applies when using swords, thrown rocks and laser pistols as well.

Are you being sarcastic to prove a point or serious here? I honestly can't tell.

[Axelmania]

I'm serious in the context that if I were assuming that about the extra action I would feel obligated to assume that about the knockout as well. Why not? They're presented in the same open-ended context. To apply a house rule to limit the natural 20 in some way would feel like it came with an obligation to apply that house rule to the melee attack as well.

[Killer Cyborg]

1. The old FAQ was written by fans (not staff) who only sometimes knew what they were talking about.
Unless it cites some kind of canon source, it's best ignored.

Regardless of who wrote it, it has been canonized.

No, it has not.

Boxing necessarily adds to your number of ranged attacks, because ranged attacks necessarily use melee attacks.

There are other cases besides boxing where we are explicitly told that bonus attacks can only be made a certain way.

Correct.
And in Boxing, we are NOT told that, therefore the bonus attack is NOT only made a certain way.

[hbrika]

I remember back in the day when Robotech and BTS and TMNT were new and fresh everyone took boxing to get that extra attack. That was in the late 80s…

And over 30 years later it is still being debated.

There seriously needs to be a players guide. Rather than paying for essentially the same skill lists and equipment lists (VCRs haha) for each new book. They then could add more art and other content to their books.


I agree if there is no limit then its an extra attack period. You can houserule it if you like but as it stands it is what the writers said it is.

[Axelmania]

All I know is, if the extra attack applies to more than just punches then the knockout on natural 20 applies to more than just punches.

[Killer Cyborg]

All I know is, if the extra attack applies to more than just punches then the knockout on natural 20 applies to more than just punches.

Incorrect.
What you should say is this:
"All I know is, if the extra attack is a standard attack (NOT a special attack that's different from any other extra attack a character can get from any number of causes), then the knockout on a Natural 20 is a standard knockout attack, and NOT a special attack that's different (other than as listed) from any other knockout attack."

That would be logical, and more precise than your stance.

The distinction is important, because a standard knockout attack IS a punch attack and/or a melee attack.

RGMG 34
The Game Master can only assume that a combatant is trying to hurt or kill his opponent unless told otherwise. If the attacker "announces that he is trying to render his opponent unconscious, that is a different story. Then if the character tolls at or above his Hand to Hand combat skill to Knockout/Stun, or rolls a natural 20, his opponent is knocked unconscious rather than killed. A knockout punch inflicts minimal physical damage, but knocks the victim unconscious or dazed/stunned/incapacitated.

And, describing how the knockout (punch) was used in game play:
Each roll for the knockout punch was terrible...

Knockout is a term that applies to melee combat as standard, part of a character's HTH Combat skill. Just like the HTH skill critical strikes, knockout only applies to melee as standard, NOT to ranged weapons.
And just as with the extra attack granted by boxing, the fact that no exception to this rule is stated means that there is no exception to this rule.

[dreicunan]

The knockout from boxing is exceptional in that you can just choose to take advantage of any natural 20 after the fact and decide that your attack also knocked them out. Logic tells you that this applies to attacks that could conceivably knock a person out. So check with your GM about how that is applied at each individual table.

This rule comes in the text section before it talks about BONUSES gained due to boxing, which include an extra attack per melee as well as bonuses to strength, parry and dodge, and sdc. Clearly those bonuses are meant to apply at all times, and not just while one is fighting with one's fists. The extra attack applies regardless of the nature of the combat.

[Killer Cyborg]

The knockout from boxing is exceptional in that you can just choose to take advantage of any natural 20 after the fact and decide that your attack also knocked them out.

Yes, it's exceptional in only the ways that it is noted as being exceptional.

This rule comes in the text section before it talks about BONUSES gained due to boxing, which include an extra attack per melee as well as bonuses to strength, parry and dodge, and sdc. Clearly those bonuses are meant to apply at all times, and not just while one is fighting with one's fists. The extra attack applies regardless of the nature of the combat.

Good point.
Nobody tries to claim that the bonuses to PS, Parry, Dodge, and SDC only apply when punching somebody, even though the extra attack is listed on the same level.

[Axelmania]

a standard knockout attack IS a punch attack and/or a melee attack.

RGMG 34
The Game Master can only assume that a combatant is trying to hurt or kill his opponent unless told otherwise. If the attacker "announces that he is trying to render his opponent unconscious, that is a different story. Then if the character tolls at or above his Hand to Hand combat skill to Knockout/Stun, or rolls a natural 20, his opponent is knocked unconscious rather than killed. A knockout punch inflicts minimal physical damage, but knocks the victim unconscious or dazed/stunned/incapacitated.

And, describing how the knockout (punch) was used in game play:
Each roll for the knockout punch was terrible...

A punch being used as the chosen attack in an example in no way limits it to working with punches.

The preceding play-test example involves a presumptuous GM. They respond "lousy punch" even though the Juicer never actually specified HOW they were trying to knock them out.

Furthermore, in this example, since the required roll was 19-20, it wasn't talking about the boxing skill at all, but rather some other ability. I'm going to assume this Juicer was a 13th level Judoka (WB8p193) because that doesn't fit the parameters of any of RMB's original HTH skills:

Basic: from behind at 13th
Expert: 18/19/20 at 11th
Martial: 18/19/20 at 13th
Assassin: 17/18/19/20 at 7th

"Strike bonuses are included" also shows this GM was using house rules because Japan clearly says this has to be a "natural" 19 or 20!

GM also should've probably advised the juicer he could've used his generous +3 to pull punch to try and negate the damage from the punches so that he could keep trying until he made his roll.

IMO pull punch should be made more interesting: if it's 11 to do half damage, maybe it should be 12 for quarter, 13 for 1 and 14 for none? Some relationship between damage inflicted and chance of knocking out certain targets would also be sensible.

Knockout is a term that applies to melee combat as standard, part of a character's HTH Combat skill. Just like the HTH skill critical strikes, knockout only applies to melee as standard, NOT to ranged weapons.

At what point was an inability to use HTH crit/knockout ranges for ranged weapons clarified?

I know RMB33 mentioned not adding WP strike bonuses to "hand to hand or combat skill" but die-based outcomes are not bonuses.

And just as with the extra attack granted by boxing, the fact that no exception to this rule is stated means that there is no exception to this rule.

What rule are we talking about? Page?

Nobody tries to claim that the bonuses to PS, Parry, Dodge, and SDC only apply when punching somebody, even though the extra attack is listed on the same level.

So why argue that "automatically knockout an opponent on a natural 20" only applies in "fighting with fists" situations?

What's next, the +4 to damage from being on horseback doesn't benefit damage from arrows?

[dreicunan]

Nobody tries to claim that the bonuses to PS, Parry, Dodge, and SDC only apply when punching somebody, even though the extra attack is listed on the same level.

So why argue that "automatically knockout an opponent on a natural 20" only applies in "fighting with fists" situations?

What's next, the +4 to damage from being on horseback doesn't benefit damage from arrows?

First, every single horsemanship skill in RUE makes,it clear that the bonus damage does not apply to ranged weapons or attacks. The bonus damage would apply to the arrow if you held it in your fist and slammed it into someone as you rode past them. It would not if you shot it at them.

Second, the main reason to argue that the knockout would only apply to punches would be that it says that boxing is "the art of fighting with fists," and then says that "skilled boxers will automatically knock out an opponents on a roll of Natural Twenty." A boxer is one who boxes, and boxing was just defined as the art of fighting with fists, therefore the knockout blow would come from a fist.

Note that I am merely presenting that argument. I personally would most definitely include any blow with a body part (punch, kick, knee, elbow, headbut, groin thrust with a reinforced codpiece, etc), can see a very good argument for extending it to blunt weapons, and am not opposed to including some slashing and piercing weapons as well, depending on their size. Or instead allowing someone using a slashing or piercing weapon to convert the blow, e.g. as you tried using your rapier to stab, you saw an opening and instead sucker punched your opponent in the jaw, sending him sprawling. You use the damage for a punch, not the rapier (or maybe a punch plus the equivalent of brass knuckles depending on the guard), and knock your opponent out.

Now, we always played that this kind of knockout was also a crit since you weren't trying just knock the person out, but how people interpret thag may differ.

[Axelmania]

every single horsemanship skill in RUE makes,it clear that the bonus damage does not apply to ranged weapons or attacks.

I'm reviewing RUE311 right now. Where's that made clear for Horsemanship: General? I see "not applicable to ranged" as a limit to the damage bonus for Cowboy/Cossack/Cyber-Knight/Knight but it does not appear to be a limitation for the general skill.

Further more I actually cropped off the end: "ranged weapons like rifles and blasters". Should that necessarily be read as ALL ranged weapons, or the subset of ranged weapons that are alike to those 2 kinds, ie perhaps just guns and not arrows / throwing.

Second, the main reason to argue that the knockout would only apply to punches would be that it says that boxing is "the art of fighting with fists," and then says that "skilled boxers will automatically knock out an opponents on a roll of Natural Twenty." A boxer is one who boxes, and boxing was just defined as the art of fighting with fists, therefore the knockout blow would come from a fist.

That is basically us relying on what seems reasonable based rather than the letter, but if we're taking THAT path, then the parry bonus should only be to unarmed parries against punches, the dodge only against punches, the extra melee attack only for a punch or to dodge a punch, etc.

[dreicunan]

every single horsemanship skill in RUE makes,it clear that the bonus damage does not apply to ranged weapons or attacks.

I'm reviewing RUE311 right now. Where's that made clear for Horsemanship: General? I see "not applicable to ranged" as a limit to the damage bonus for Cowboy/Cossack/Cyber-Knight/Knight but it does not appear to be a limitation for the general skill.

Further more I actually cropped off the end: "ranged weapons like rifles and blasters". Should that necessarily be read as ALL ranged weapons, or the subset of ranged weapons that are alike to those 2 kinds, ie perhaps just guns and not arrows / throwing.

General adds it to kicks and melee weapons. That means exactly what it says, not what it doesn't.

Yes, ranged weapons means all ranged weapons. I have spoken (see my sig).

Second, the main reason to argue that the knockout would only apply to punches would be that it says that boxing is "the art of fighting with fists," and then says that "skilled boxers will automatically knock out an opponents on a roll of Natural Twenty." A boxer is one who boxes, and boxing was just defined as the art of fighting with fists, therefore the knockout blow would come from a fist.

That is basically us relying on what seems reasonable based rather than the letter, but if we're taking THAT path, then the parry bonus should only be to unarmed parries against punches, the dodge only against punches, the extra melee attack only for a punch or to dodge a punch, etc.

No, because the skill makes it clear that "Training helps build the body and reflexes." The "bonuses" from physical skills always apply. Body building doesn't only give you +2 PS while lifting weights!

[Killer Cyborg]

a standard knockout attack IS a punch attack and/or a melee attack.

RGMG 34
The Game Master can only assume that a combatant is trying to hurt or kill his opponent unless told otherwise. If the attacker "announces that he is trying to render his opponent unconscious, that is a different story. Then if the character tolls at or above his Hand to Hand combat skill to Knockout/Stun, or rolls a natural 20, his opponent is knocked unconscious rather than killed. A knockout punch inflicts minimal physical damage, but knocks the victim unconscious or dazed/stunned/incapacitated.

And, describing how the knockout (punch) was used in game play:
Each roll for the knockout punch was terrible...

A punch being used as the chosen attack in an example in no way limits it to working with punches.

That depends on how many times the chosen attack is used, in how many examples, and whether or not any other kind of attack is EVER used.
Find an instance where any knockout attack is made with anything other than a punch, if you want to build a case.

The preceding play-test example involves a presumptuous GM. They respond "lousy punch" even though the Juicer never actually specified HOW they were trying to knock them out.

OR the Juicer never needed to specify, because a knockout attack is necessarily a punch in the first place.
If a player states they want to lick an NPC's face, they don't need to specify that they're doing it with their tongue.

Furthermore, in this example, since the required roll was 19-20, it wasn't talking about the boxing skill at all

It doesn't matter, because the example is for how Knockouts work in general.

I'm going to assume this Juicer was a 13th level Judoka (WB8p193)

You're going to assume that the example of roleplay was using a rule that wouldn't be written until years AFTER the fact, instead of some rule written or playtested before the game in question was played?

Okay.

Knockout is a term that applies to melee combat as standard, part of a character's HTH Combat skill. Just like the HTH skill critical strikes, knockout only applies to melee as standard, NOT to ranged weapons.

At what point was an inability to use HTH crit/knockout ranges for ranged weapons clarified?

Not sure off hand.
But the ability to use HTH bonuses/skills in ranged combat is never granted in the first place.

And just as with the extra attack granted by boxing, the fact that no exception to this rule is stated means that there is no exception to this rule.

What rule are we talking about? Page?

The rule that HTH bonuses and attacks only apply to melee unless otherwise stated.
You'll have to find the page yourself, or look up previous arguments about this topic, because I don't have the time right now.

Nobody tries to claim that the bonuses to PS, Parry, Dodge, and SDC only apply when punching somebody, even though the extra attack is listed on the same level.

So why argue that "automatically knockout an opponent on a natural 20" only applies in "fighting with fists" situations?[quote]

Because that's the nature of Knockout attacks.

[RockJock]

I fall into the extra ranged attack for boxing. As an example from a book, New West, General Kenneth Sprite(pg 27/28), gives a character with Boxing adding an extra ranged attack. 7 with boxing and Expert, 8 with pistols, so the boxing attack is added in.

I know the above example doesn't prove anything, since PB is filled with characters that do not fit the rules, but I feel it should at least be a guideline to how character are meant to work. Plus, if boxing does not give a bonus ranged attacked then why not throw everything out and go with a more realistic approach? Have totally separate range and hth attack numbers? I can be a competition shooter without being able to throw lightning fast punches.

[ShadowLogan]

I fall into the extra ranged attack for boxing. As an example from a book, New West, General Kenneth Sprite(pg 27/28), gives a character with Boxing adding an extra ranged attack. 7 with boxing and Expert, 8 with pistols, so the boxing attack is added in.

I know the above example doesn't prove anything, since PB is filled with characters that do not fit the rules, but I feel it should at least be a guideline to how character are meant to work. Plus, if boxing does not give a bonus ranged attacked then why not throw everything out and go with a more realistic approach? Have totally separate range and hth attack numbers? I can be a competition shooter without being able to throw lightning fast punches.

+1, are there other NPCs that show this is the case? (or even the reverse).

I am looking at SB1o, and all of the CS affiliated NPCs (pg20-26) check out in terms of attacks when considering Level, HTH skill and if they have boxing. That adds 3 NPCs to the list (out of 10, only 3 had boxing).

[Axelmania]

General adds it to kicks and melee weapons. That means exactly what it says, not what it doesn't.

Quote?

Yes, ranged weapons means all ranged weapons. I have spoken (see my sig).

The "bonuses" from physical skills always apply. Body building doesn't only give you +2 PS while lifting weights!

Nor does boxing only give nat20 knockouts on punches or even melee attacks. That's my point.

That depends on how many times the chosen attack is used, in how many examples, and whether or not any other kind of attack is EVER used.
Find an instance where any knockout attack is made with anything other than a punch, if you want to build a case.

You need to find more than a strange Aikido-Juicer example if you want to introduce a rule limiting wen an ability is applied.

OR the Juicer never needed to specify, because a knockout attack is necessarily a punch in the first place.
If a player states they want to lick an NPC's face, they don't need to specify that they're doing it with their tongue.

There is no basis for that assumption, knockouts are never described that way. We also know realistically that kicks can knock people out too. GMs sometimes just assume stuff. RCBp11 for example had "I'm going to blow off his hand" without Knight X specifying WHICH of Grunt Y's hands (the one with the vibro-blade or the one with the gun) but the GM rules a miss goes past the LEFT ear, though we don't even know which hand is holding which weapon.

There may be un-published things in gaming summaries, like a Juicer's playing saying "assume any knockouts I make are with my left hand" to shorten future communications with the GM.

You're going to assume that the example of roleplay was using a rule that wouldn't be written until years AFTER the fact, instead of some rule written or playtested before the game in question was played?

Japan was PUBLISHED years after this first appeared on page 12-13 of the Conversion Book, but who knows how long that was being written for? N&S was already out (RCB had conversion for it) so perhaps the playtest involved them using a HTH form from that.

N&Sp83 basic/judo gave a 19-20 knockout at level 9, expert/jujitsu at 8, as two pretty accessible examples.

the ability to use HTH bonuses/skills in ranged combat is never granted in the first place.

The rule that HTH bonuses and attacks only apply to melee unless otherwise stated.

Where is that rule?

The way you can use "melee" attacks to shoot guns, or "dodge" (defined in HTH, not ranged) against guns, shows the system of one is built upon the other. Do you even have rules on rolling a D20 to hit with bullets, or does that rely on melee baseline?

So why argue that "automatically knockout an opponent on a natural 20" only applies in "fighting with fists" situations?

Because that's the nature of Knockout attacks.

There's never been any fists-only rule for KOS.

I fall into the extra ranged attack for boxing. As an example from a book, New West, General Kenneth Sprite(pg 27/28), gives a character with Boxing adding an extra ranged attack. 7 with boxing and Expert, 8 with pistols, so the boxing attack is added in.

I know the above example doesn't prove anything, since PB is filled with characters that do not fit the rules, but I feel it should at least be a guideline to how character are meant to work.

I agree. If any NPCs with Boxing stated under combat notes "knockout on a natural 20 with punches only" or "knockout on a natural 20 with melee attacks only" that'd be decent precedent.

Plus, if boxing does not give a bonus ranged attacked then why not throw everything out and go with a more realistic approach? Have totally separate range and hth attack numbers? I can be a competition shooter without being able to throw lightning fast punches.

Sounds a lot like the Rate of Fire for Archery.

[dreicunan]

General adds it to kicks and melee weapons. That means exactly what it says, not what it doesn't.

Quote?

Open you copy of RUE to page 311 and read the skill "Horsemanship: General."

The "bonuses" from physical skills always apply. Body building doesn't only give you +2 PS while lifting weights!

Nor does boxing only give nat20 knockouts on punches or even melee attacks. That's my point.

The ability to KO on a nat 20 granted by boxing is not listed in the bonus section, however, and thus is not necesarily the same thing. While I personally would extend it beyond punches, as I already stated in an earlier post, I don't recall seeing anything definitive on the matter in the rules.

[Pepsi Jedi]

This is silly.

As per Palladium rules, RAW, yes, boxing adds to your ranged attacks. As many have pointed out your ranged attacks are based on your HTH skill, so trying to argue it the other way is just stupid.

It may not be the best rule system in the world, but this? Seriously? lol I could understand this in 1988. I was 11.

[jaymz]

In short:
Boxing necessarily adds to your number of ranged attacks, because ranged attacks necessarily use melee attacks.

In fact, there is no such thing as "ranged attacks" in their own right. They're just melee attacks, used to fire ranged weapons.

This

[jaymz]

Boxing applies to ranged attacks...

It is a flaw in the Palladium system...

After all, Hand to Hand skill is HAND TO HAND (not ranged), yet it applies to ranged attacks.

If you would like an alternative that makes more sense but is even more complicated than the current canon system, there is a system in the Rifter.

If I am thinking of the same "ranged combat training" that you are it too uses your number of HTH attacks

[jaymz]

Putting aside the fact that some people seem to just like to argue....

The Palladium system can get convoluted enough at times without also having to keep track of "which attacks are general and which a just hth"

RUE states +1 additional attack per melee round.
RMB states + one additional attack per melee.
GMG states +1 additional attack per melee.

THOSE are the 3 primary sources for the skill in question.

NONE state +1/one additional HAND TO HAND ATTACK per melee round. They ONLY state +1/one ATTACK per melee round.

Simple english. It is a GENERAL attack per melee round.

Hoby Jeebus Keeryste this is not hard to figure out people.

[RockJock]

Axel, I agree what I threw up there is similar to archery. A way to manager attacks in a period of time, but not the same as a brawling melee.

Shadow, I didn't do an extensive search for NPCs. I had a hunch that the wording used for gunslinger types might be more descriptive than the regular melee action count, and I was right. I'll look for others when I have time, but feel free to poke around. There cannot be too many gunslingers/gunfighter type NPCs stated out.

[Killer Cyborg]

That depends on how many times the chosen attack is used, in how many examples, and whether or not any other kind of attack is EVER used.
Find an instance where any knockout attack is made with anything other than a punch, if you want to build a case.

You need to find more than a strange Aikido-Juicer example if you want to introduce a rule limiting wen an ability is applied.

I'm not introducing a rule limiting when an ability is applied.
You're trying to introduce a rule expanding when it is applied.

OR the Juicer never needed to specify, because a knockout attack is necessarily a punch in the first place.
If a player states they want to lick an NPC's face, they don't need to specify that they're doing it with their tongue.

There is no basis for that assumption, knockouts are never described that way.

They're never really described at all.

We also know realistically that kicks can knock people out too.

DO we know that's how it works in-game?
Find me an example.

You're going to assume that the example of roleplay was using a rule that wouldn't be written until years AFTER the fact, instead of some rule written or playtested before the game in question was played?

Japan was PUBLISHED years after this first appeared on page 12-13 of the Conversion Book, but who knows how long that was being written for?

Find some evidence that it was written years before it was published, and you might have a case.
Otherwise...

N&S was already out (RCB had conversion for it) so perhaps the playtest involved them using a HTH form from that.

A more reasonable assumption, but still guesswork.

the ability to use HTH bonuses/skills in ranged combat is never granted in the first place.

The rule that HTH bonuses and attacks only apply to melee unless otherwise stated.

Where is that rule?

Look through the books, man.

RUE 361 has a version of it:
The only bonuses that apply to using guns or other ranged weapons are the specific Weapon Proficiency, Sniping skill bonuses if the character has that skill, any applicable bonus from the weapon itself, and the ones that follow...

But there are other versions in other books as well.

The way you can use "melee" attacks to shoot guns,

The way in which you can use HTH attacks to fire guns is due to the rules for guns, NOT due to the rules for Hand to Hand combat.
RMB 34
Each individual shot takes one full attack.

That rule for firearms allows you to use HTH attacks to make Aimed Shots; without it, you couldn't.
There are similar rules for bursts, and so forth.

And there's Rate of Fire: Equal To Number of Hand To Hand Attacks, which works the same way.

or "dodge" (defined in HTH, not ranged) against guns,

Not the same thing:
If a missile was coming at you, you could try to punch it using a normal HTH punch.
Similarly, if a missile is coming at you, you can try to dodge it using a normal HTH dodge.

What you cannot do--because the rules don't grant the ability--is to make a Ranged Dodge.

Do you even have rules on rolling a D20 to hit with bullets, or does that rely on melee baseline?

Please stop asking questions that you could easily look up yourself.
I don't mind assisting with obscure lore, but do more of your own research, especially with easy stuff.

RMB 34
Roll to strike for each shot

RMB 37
Strike Anyone attempting to hit an opponent must roll to strike. As with all combat rolls, a roll to strike is made with twenty-sided dice.

There's never been any fists-only rule for KOS.

There has never been any rule defining it as anything else.
I agree that it's reasonable to allow kicks and other Hand To Hand attacks that one gets from Hand To Hand Combat,
but like other HTH combat maneuvers, it only applies to HTH combat unless otherwise stated.
You can't Pull Punch with a bullet.
You can't Kick with a bullet.
You can't Judo-Flip with a bullet.
You can't Critical Strike on an unmodified 19+ with a bullet.
You don't get your HTH strike, parry, or dodge bonuses with a bullet.
You don't get your HTH damage bonuses with a bullet.
And you don't get your Knockout/Stun attack with a bullet.

Not unless there's a rule somewhere specifying that you DO.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That depends on how many times the chosen attack is used, in how many examples, and whether or not any other kind of attack is EVER used.
Find an instance where any knockout attack is made with anything other than a punch, if you want to build a case.

You need to find more than a strange Aikido-Juicer example if you want to introduce a rule limiting wen an ability is applied.

I'm not introducing a rule limiting when an ability is applied.
You're trying to introduce a rule expanding when it is applied.

OR the Juicer never needed to specify, because a knockout attack is necessarily a punch in the first place.
If a player states they want to lick an NPC's face, they don't need to specify that they're doing it with their tongue.

There is no basis for that assumption, knockouts are never described that way.

They're never really described at all.

Umm, yes they are. Rifts Ultimate Edition discribes the victims of a knockout as being dazed, having one attack per melee round and no combat bonuses. By the rules, they can still parry, dodge, run away, even use a level 1-5 spell to try to hide or get away if they want, though RP Wise they should be dazed and not acting optimally, but they can act.

In Heroes Unlimited, a Knockout is discribed in further detail, save vs. Knockout of 15 or higher with PE bonuses to remain concious, if they do, then they lose two attacks per melee and combat bonuses reduced by half and act with a "head full of cobwebs" but can still fight.

ONLY characters with boxing can reliablly knock out victims on a natural 20. Otherwise, even a successful knockout or knockout from behind, might not actually stop them from fighting at all, just apply penalties. That's what Automatic Knockout meant, without boxing, there's no garentee a successful knockout actually knocks someone out, and also a note that just because Palladium copy-pasts 90% of basic rules across settings is no reason to not read them closely because some things do change.

In Rifts main book, it said knockout does not necessarily knock them out, but does stun them/daze them.

In Heroes Unlimited Second Edition, there is a save vs. Knockout that means even if you land a knockout, they might just get some penalties and keep fighting

and in Rifts Ultimate edition, Knockout has no save, but has more severe penalties, but also never actually results in knocking the opponenet unconicous unless you have boxing, which in RUE rules is the only way to knock someone unconcious short of magic or tranquilizer weapons.

[Killer Cyborg]

OR the Juicer never needed to specify, because a knockout attack is necessarily a punch in the first place.
If a player states they want to lick an NPC's face, they don't need to specify that they're doing it with their tongue.

There is no basis for that assumption, knockouts are never described that way.

They're never really described at all.

Umm, yes they are. Rifts Ultimate Edition discribes the victims of a knockout as being dazed, having one attack per melee round and no combat bonuses. By the rules, they can still parry, dodge, run away, even use a level 1-5 spell to try to hide or get away if they want, though RP Wise they should be dazed and not acting optimally, but they can act.

In Heroes Unlimited, a Knockout is discribed in further detail, save vs. Knockout of 15 or higher with PE bonuses to remain concious, if they do, then they lose two attacks per melee and combat bonuses reduced by half and act with a "head full of cobwebs" but can still fight.

ONLY characters with boxing can reliablly knock out victims on a natural 20. Otherwise, even a successful knockout or knockout from behind, might not actually stop them from fighting at all, just apply penalties. That's what Automatic Knockout meant, without boxing, there's no garentee a successful knockout actually knocks someone out, and also a note that just because Palladium copy-pasts 90% of basic rules across settings is no reason to not read them closely because some things do change.

In Rifts main book, it said knockout does not necessarily knock them out, but does stun them/daze them.

In Heroes Unlimited Second Edition, there is a save vs. Knockout that means even if you land a knockout, they might just get some penalties and keep fighting

and in Rifts Ultimate edition, Knockout has no save, but has more severe penalties, but also never actually results in knocking the opponenet unconicous unless you have boxing, which in RUE rules is the only way to knock someone unconcious short of magic or tranquilizer weapons.

Those are describing the effects of a knockout, not how the knockout attack is made.

[Nekira Sudacne]

OR the Juicer never needed to specify, because a knockout attack is necessarily a punch in the first place.
If a player states they want to lick an NPC's face, they don't need to specify that they're doing it with their tongue.

There is no basis for that assumption, knockouts are never described that way.

They're never really described at all.

Umm, yes they are. Rifts Ultimate Edition discribes the victims of a knockout as being dazed, having one attack per melee round and no combat bonuses. By the rules, they can still parry, dodge, run away, even use a level 1-5 spell to try to hide or get away if they want, though RP Wise they should be dazed and not acting optimally, but they can act.

In Heroes Unlimited, a Knockout is discribed in further detail, save vs. Knockout of 15 or higher with PE bonuses to remain concious, if they do, then they lose two attacks per melee and combat bonuses reduced by half and act with a "head full of cobwebs" but can still fight.

ONLY characters with boxing can reliablly knock out victims on a natural 20. Otherwise, even a successful knockout or knockout from behind, might not actually stop them from fighting at all, just apply penalties. That's what Automatic Knockout meant, without boxing, there's no garentee a successful knockout actually knocks someone out, and also a note that just because Palladium copy-pasts 90% of basic rules across settings is no reason to not read them closely because some things do change.

In Rifts main book, it said knockout does not necessarily knock them out, but does stun them/daze them.

In Heroes Unlimited Second Edition, there is a save vs. Knockout that means even if you land a knockout, they might just get some penalties and keep fighting

and in Rifts Ultimate edition, Knockout has no save, but has more severe penalties, but also never actually results in knocking the opponenet unconicous unless you have boxing, which in RUE rules is the only way to knock someone unconcious short of magic or tranquilizer weapons.

Those are describing the effects of a knockout, not how the knockout attack is made.

My point is one can largely work backwards from the effect to deduce the cause. Like you can sort of look at a stab wound and figure out what kind of weapon made it. it may not be exactly precice, but it seems like it should be enough to work with? Especially as there's no one discription as there's no single cause in every case. Any attack that could reasonably result in a knockout as discribed should be valid, while those that are not, should not"

[Killer Cyborg]

My point is one can largely work backwards from the effect to deduce the cause. Like you can sort of look at a stab wound and figure out what kind of weapon made it. it may not be exactly precice, but it seems like it should be enough to work with? Especially as there's no one discription as there's no single cause in every case. Any attack that could reasonably result in a knockout as discribed should be valid, while those that are not, should not"

So... just "use common sense"...?

[Axelmania]

It seems like HOW you do a knockout is simple: it just happens. You don't need to declare anything for the Boxing version of it.

I imagine they put it in there because other means of knockouts, you did need to declare before rolling. I can't remember WHY specifically though, like if there was any downside to declaring and failing.

I'm not introducing a rule limiting when an ability is applied.
You're trying to introduce a rule expanding when it is applied.


They're never really described at all.

In Rifts, or Palladium in general?

Find some evidence that it was written years before it was published, and you might have a case.
Otherwise...

A more reasonable assumption, but still guesswork.

An educated assessment, Japan drew heavily on Wujcik's work even if not the direct author like the Chinas.

Look through the books, man.

RUE 361 has a version of it:
The only bonuses that apply to using guns or other ranged weapons are the specific Weapon Proficiency, Sniping skill bonuses if the character has that skill, any applicable bonus from the weapon itself, and the ones that follow...

But there are other versions in other books as well.

Interesting. So on this basis, HTH skill bonuses to melee attacks do not apply to ranged weapons since they are not weapon proficiencies, sniping, from the weapon itself, or from the ranged combat section?

"+1 attack" far more resembles a "bonus" than "knockout on a natural 20" or "knockout from behind".

The way in which you can use HTH attacks to fire guns is due to the rules for guns, NOT due to the rules for Hand to Hand combat.
RMB 34
Each individual shot takes one full attack.

Ah: but does that refer to the default attacks ALL characters have (untrained) or does it specifically allow the use of the extra attacks one gains through a HTH skill?

That rule for firearms allows you to use HTH attacks to make Aimed Shots; without it, you couldn't.

Wrong, you do not need to have a HTH skill to have attacks, untrained people without a HTH skill have attacks, you could use those.

RMB 34
Roll to strike for each shot

RMB 37
Strike Anyone attempting to hit an opponent must roll to strike. As with all combat rolls, a roll to strike is made with twenty-sided dice.

There's never been any fists-only rule for KOS.

There has never been any rule defining it as anything else.
I agree that it's reasonable to allow kicks and other Hand To Hand attacks that one gets from Hand To Hand Combat,
but like other HTH combat maneuvers, it only applies to HTH combat unless otherwise stated.

I don't know if maneuver is the right term for that.

You can't Pull Punch with a bullet.

Can you do it with a Wilks Laser Sword?

You don't get your HTH strike, parry, or dodge bonuses with a bullet.
You don't get your HTH damage bonuses with a bullet.
And you don't get your Knockout/Stun attack with a bullet.

Not unless there's a rule somewhere specifying that you DO.

But you do get your melee attack bonuses?

We should probably isolate whether you get the bonus attacks from levelling in HTH skills with guns, or if it might be vague enough to refer to the attacks untrained people have.

[Killer Cyborg]

It seems like HOW you do a knockout is simple: it just happens. You don't need to declare anything for the Boxing version of it.

I imagine they put it in there because other means of knockouts, you did need to declare before rolling. I can't remember WHY specifically though, like if there was any downside to declaring and failing.

I don't remember any downsides.

I'm not introducing a rule limiting when an ability is applied.
You're trying to introduce a rule expanding when it is applied.


They're never really described at all.

In Rifts, or Palladium in general?

As far as I know, in Palladium in general.

Find some evidence that it was written years before it was published, and you might have a case.
Otherwise...

A more reasonable assumption, but still guesswork.

An educated assessment, Japan drew heavily on Wujcik's work even if not the direct author like the Chinas.

Guesswork is guesswork.

Look through the books, man.

RUE 361 has a version of it:
The only bonuses that apply to using guns or other ranged weapons are the specific Weapon Proficiency, Sniping skill bonuses if the character has that skill, any applicable bonus from the weapon itself, and the ones that follow...

But there are other versions in other books as well.

Interesting. So on this basis, HTH skill bonuses to melee attacks do not apply to ranged weapons since they are not weapon proficiencies, sniping, from the weapon itself, or from the ranged combat section?

"+1 attack" far more resembles a "bonus" than "knockout on a natural 20" or "knockout from behind".

It's not a bonus; it's not added to a die roll.
It's simply an additional attack per melee.

The way in which you can use HTH attacks to fire guns is due to the rules for guns, NOT due to the rules for Hand to Hand combat.
RMB 34
Each individual shot takes one full attack.

Ah: but does that refer to the default attacks ALL characters have (untrained) or does it specifically allow the use of the extra attacks one gains through a HTH skill?[/quote]

In Palladium, attacks are attacks unless otherwise specified.

That rule for firearms allows you to use HTH attacks to make Aimed Shots; without it, you couldn't.

Wrong, you do not need to have a HTH skill to have attacks, untrained people without a HTH skill have attacks, you could use those.

Right.
Because Palladium does not distinguish between attacks unless specified.

You can't Pull Punch with a bullet.

Can you do it with a Wilks Laser Sword?

Yup.

[Axelmania]

It's not a bonus; it's not added to a die roll.
It's simply an additional attack per melee.

A bonus is something you add, I don't think the term necessarily is exclusive to die-rolls, but may apply to static amounts. Or would we be unable to find a "bonus attack per melee" or similar wording somewhere?

In Palladium, attacks are attacks unless otherwise specified.

I think "hand to hand" is specific.