Cyber-Knight Zen Combat Is a Broken, Unworkable Mess

[Hotrod]

From a roleplaying perspective, I've always appreciated the Cyber-Knight, especially as originally presented. With the exception of the Techno-Wizard, no other class brings together the kitchen sink of fantasy and science fiction like the CK does. Their lifestyle is both tragic and inspiring, making for some great thematic adventures.

Then the Siege on Tolkeen happened and ruined the class. They became anti-tech knights, rather than a class that embraced both technology and psionics. I didn't care for that, as their description would seem to align them more against demons than against technology, but from a practical standpoint, they needed some way of going toe to toe with the CS without getting steamrolled. That's how they're going as a class, and I can accept that. What I can't accept is how their anti-tech is implemented: Zen Combat. It sounds cool when you read it, but it breaks down badly when you actually try to implement it. Let's take a look at actually implementing it for a character:

Level 1: No bonuses. Cool.

Level 2: The cyber-knight gets paired weapons and W.P. Shield. Here's a problem: The bonuses to W.P. shield are given as starting at Level 1, but the character gets it at Level 2, and the last shield parry bonus comes at Level 15. We now have to make a judgment call: start W.P. shield at Level 2 proficiency, or start it at Level 1?

Level 3: The character is allowed to fight and strike while moving and off balance. I wasn't aware that anyone else couldn't strike while moving (charge attacks? Jump kicks?), but I guess this means that the CK never needs to shoot wild. It's a bit of an odd bonus for an anti-tech character, but ok.

Level 4: Basic Combat Awareness. This is where Zen Combat jumps the shark. Let's break it down:
Any bonuses provided by a weapon/machine are negated. First off, how many GM's have so developed their NPCs that they know exactly where all their bonuses come from? It's a hassle just to do all the cross-referencing necessary to sum up the bonuses. Now the GM (or player, if the player is fighting a CK) has to reverse that process, break down all sources of bonuses, selectively negate some of them, and then add up the rest, and this is just for one action! Never mind that many of these bonuses vary depending on the specific type of action the player is taking (aimed shot or normal shot?).
The Cyber-Knight gets +3 initiative against modern guns and machines and +6 against artificial intelligences and computers. Aside from the lack of clarity (what if a robot is using a modern gun?), this ignores the basic fact that initiative is rolled against everyone participating in combat, not just against one person who has tech. Therefore, if a Cyber-Knight and a Burster (with no tech) are fighting against a Ley Line Walker (no tech) and a Borg (with tech), this bonus is impossible to implement.
In the same paragraph, we get the line "Also, the Cyber-Knight is +3 to Strike and Parry." Is this against robots or high-tech opponents, or just to everyone?
In the next paragraph, "the Cyber-Knight's gun-toting or tech-laden opponent is -3 to dodge the Cyber-Knight's attacks and loses 2 melee attacks/actions due to time spent compensating for the Cyber-Knight's amazing agility, combat skills, and awareness." Here again, this become impossible to implement when more than one person is involved in combat. If the tech-laden opponent is also fighting a Cyber-Knight's ally, and only aims the occasional shot at the cyber-knight, how does that work out?

At level five, the Cyber-Knight gets a +4 to automatic dodge against tech. This sounds cool at first, but what constitutes "tech"? It specifies guns and mechanical weapons. Is a bow a "mechanical weapon?" How about a crossbow? If a borg is throwing a spear, does that count as a "tech" attack? The definition here is so nebulous that two reasonable people could draw lines that are totally different. In a game that depends on a group of people sharing a common imaginary frame of reference, these definitions matter. Additionally, the CK gets a +4 to automatic dodge. Is this in addition to normal dodge bonuses? PP bonuses? There's no canon answer that's readily apparent.

Level Six introduces "Cloud Sensors" which muddies things even further. Does this apply to all sensors used by anyone hostile to a Cyber-knight, even if they're only trying to engage one of the CK's allies? Do they still lose attacks figuring out what they're doing?

Level Eight's "Advanced Combat Awareness" mentions three things: it negates bonuses provided by weapons/machines (which Level 4 already did), and it mentiones a +2 to initiative against gun/machine-using opponents and +4 against AI and computer-controlled robots; It also makes opponents -2 to strike and dodge vs the knight, and costs them an attack. Aside from the fact that these bonuses are as broken as those at Level 4, it doesn't mention whether these bonuses stack with what came before or if they are in addition to them. Now, I can make an educated guess here that they are all in addition to those at Level 4, but this shouldn't be necessary.

Level Nine's clouding of targeting computers has the same issue as Level 6's cloud sensors.

Level Ten's improved auto-dodge also lacks context and other bonus information.

In summary, Zen combat as written is impossible to apply in situations with mixed tech/non-tech combatants. Even if it was clarified, it requires impractical amounts of book-keeping on the GM's part to keep track of all bonuses from tech for all NPCs. In my opinion, it's better to simply get rid of the whole thing, throw out the entire "anti-tech" slant of the Cyber-Knights that isn't consistent with their fluff anyway, and adopt something like what the Psi-Warriors of Psyscape have, instead.

What do you think?

[eliakon]

From a roleplaying perspective, I've always appreciated the Cyber-Knight, especially as originally presented. With the exception of the Techno-Wizard, no other class brings together the kitchen sink of fantasy and science fiction like the CK does. Their lifestyle is both tragic and inspiring, making for some great thematic adventures.

Then the Siege on Tolkeen happened and ruined the class. They became anti-tech knights, rather than a class that embraced both technology and psionics. I didn't care for that, as their description would seem to align them more against demons than against technology, but from a practical standpoint, they needed some way of going toe to toe with the CS without getting steamrolled. That's how they're going as a class, and I can accept that. What I can't accept is how their anti-tech is implemented: Zen Combat. It sounds cool when you read it, but it breaks down badly when you actually try to implement it. Let's take a look at actually implementing it for a character:

Level 1: No bonuses. Cool.

Level 2: The cyber-knight gets paired weapons and W.P. Shield. Here's a problem: The bonuses to W.P. shield are given as starting at Level 1, but the character gets it at Level 2, and the last shield parry bonus comes at Level 15. We now have to make a judgment call: start W.P. shield at Level 2 proficiency, or start it at Level 1?

Level 3: The character is allowed to fight and strike while moving and off balance. I wasn't aware that anyone else couldn't strike while moving (charge attacks? Jump kicks?), but I guess this means that the CK never needs to shoot wild. It's a bit of an odd bonus for an anti-tech character, but ok.

yeah, anyone moving while attacking is making wild attacks. This rule is almost never actually enforced...but it is what the rules are.

Level 4: Basic Combat Awareness. This is where Zen Combat jumps the shark. Let's break it down:
Any bonuses provided by a weapon/machine are negated. First off, how many GM's have so developed their NPCs that they know exactly where all their bonuses come from? It's a hassle just to do all the cross-referencing necessary to sum up the bonuses. Now the GM (or player, if the player is fighting a CK) has to reverse that process, break down all sources of bonuses, selectively negate some of them, and then add up the rest, and this is just for one action! Never mind that many of these bonuses vary depending on the specific type of action the player is taking (aimed shot or normal shot?).
The Cyber-Knight gets +3 initiative against modern guns and machines and +6 against artificial intelligences and computers. Aside from the lack of clarity (what if a robot is using a modern gun?), this ignores the basic fact that initiative is rolled against everyone participating in combat, not just against one person who has tech. Therefore, if a Cyber-Knight and a Burster (with no tech) are fighting against a Ley Line Walker (no tech) and a Borg (with tech), this bonus is impossible to implement.

Not really no.
If the cyberknight rolls a 10 lets say. And the borg rolls a 12... then the Cyberknight goes *before the borg* because he is facing a modern opponent and now adds +3 to his initiative.

In the same paragraph, we get the line "Also, the Cyber-Knight is +3 to Strike and Parry." Is this against robots or high-tech opponents, or just to everyone?

It is part of bullet point #2 so it applies to people using modern weapons/technology

In the next paragraph, "the Cyber-Knight's gun-toting or tech-laden opponent is -3 to dodge the Cyber-Knight's attacks and loses 2 melee attacks/actions due to time spent compensating for the Cyber-Knight's amazing agility, combat skills, and awareness." Here again, this become impossible to implement when more than one person is involved in combat. If the tech-laden opponent is also fighting a Cyber-Knight's ally, and only aims the occasional shot at the cyber-knight, how does that work out?

They are an opponent battles are not just some one-on-one duels that happen to be near each other. If the CK is fighting them, then they lose to melee attacks/actions unless they specifically state that they are totally ignoring the CK. In which case any and all attacks the CK makes against them are automatic surprise attacks.

At level five, the Cyber-Knight gets a +4 to automatic dodge against tech. This sounds cool at first, but what constitutes "tech"? It specifies guns and mechanical weapons. Is a bow a "mechanical weapon?" How about a crossbow? If a borg is throwing a spear, does that count as a "tech" attack? The definition here is so nebulous that two reasonable people could draw lines that are totally different. In a game that depends on a group of people sharing a common imaginary frame of reference, these definitions matter. Additionally, the CK gets a +4 to automatic dodge. Is this in addition to normal dodge bonuses? PP bonuses? There's no canon answer that's readily apparent.

Yeah, this is pretty vague. But BCA has the answer "basically any machine with moving parts or that uses electricity or has a computer chip"
so Bow no, Crossbow yes.

Level Six introduces "Cloud Sensors" which muddies things even further. Does this apply to all sensors used by anyone hostile to a Cyber-knight, even if they're only trying to engage one of the CK's allies? Do they still lose attacks figuring out what they're doing?

Yes. For example your fire control radar might be trying to lock on to the hover jeep...but it keeps on fritzing everytime a pulse touches the CK.
If the CK is in the area of effect where the sensor is sending out signals or collecting data from he messes with the sensor.

Level Eight's "Advanced Combat Awareness" mentions three things: it negates bonuses provided by weapons/machines (which Level 4 already did), and it mentiones a +2 to initiative against gun/machine-using opponents and +4 against AI and computer-controlled robots; It also makes opponents -2 to strike and dodge vs the knight, and costs them an attack. Aside from the fact that these bonuses are as broken as those at Level 4, it doesn't mention whether these bonuses stack with what came before or if they are in addition to them. Now, I can make an educated guess here that they are all in addition to those at Level 4, but this shouldn't be necessary.

Level Nine's clouding of targeting computers has the same issue as Level 6's cloud sensors.

I would apply the same standard

Level Ten's improved auto-dodge also lacks context and other bonus information.

Technology was defined in the first Combat Awareness and Cloud Sensors.
So if something fits those definitions of technology it is tech.

In summary, Zen combat as written is impossible to apply in situations with mixed tech/non-tech combatants. Even if it was clarified, it requires impractical amounts of book-keeping on the GM's part to keep track of all bonuses from tech for all NPCs. In my opinion, it's better to simply get rid of the whole thing, throw out the entire "anti-tech" slant of the Cyber-Knights that isn't consistent with their fluff anyway, and adopt something like what the Psi-Warriors of Psyscape have, instead.

What do you think?

I think it does require an insane amount of book keeping yes.
Although it isnt quite as much as it looks to be on the surface. Most NPCs are not deeply nuanced. Thus it is usually farely easy to simply look at them and tell where most of their bonuses come from.
For an opponent that has any form of tech on them then they lose pretty much all bonuses. For those with out tech they have almost no penalty.

This said in my opinion the new Cyberknights ARE perfectly in keeping with the mythos. To me I see several things. I see them putting the "cyber" into the knight. This makes them "cyber" knights in a way that a random implant doesn't. Also it helps with what is, fundamentally, one of the biggest dangers on the continent. Evil People. No seriously. The entire *reason* that the continent is not unified into a stable government with laws and protections and such... is because of evil governments, the CS at the top of the list and even the evil magic governments rely heavily on TW. bandits (who use tech) are also topping the list there for dangers. This makes them the terror of criminals, bandits, and evil empires. And that helps their quest by making them a force multiplier. The tales and legends about them grow and grow turning them into the mythical boogymen of good that the fluff paints them as. Thus you dont need armies of them mobilizing all the time. Simply having a knight or two in an area is enough to quell a lot of banditry and make evil mercenaries and the like worry... basically making them into mobile areas of calm and sanctuary from some of the major threats in the world.
It also fits neatly with their origins. Their founder comes from Palladium after all. Thus he is a Clarks Law exemplar. To him technology is magic. And thus he sees the proliferation of technological weapons as increadibly dangerous due to the fact that unlike magic or martial arts do not take years and decades to master allowing for the fielding of massive armies of low skilled, low educated soldiers with vast power... something that in his world lead to the Elf Dwarf wars, several thousand years of bloodshed and horror that devistated his world and nearly destroyed it.

So yeah, to me it makes total sense.
Make a force to keep the techies in line lest they get out of hand and have another apocalypse.

[Hotrod]

Level 3: The character is allowed to fight and strike while moving and off balance. I wasn't aware that anyone else couldn't strike while moving (charge attacks? Jump kicks?), but I guess this means that the CK never needs to shoot wild. It's a bit of an odd bonus for an anti-tech character, but ok.

yeah, anyone moving while attacking is making wild attacks. This rule is almost never actually enforced...but it is what the rules are.

So a charge attack on horseback is a wild attack? This makes sense if you're attacking with a gun, spear, or hand grenade. It makes much less sense from a melee combat perspective.

The Cyber-Knight gets +3 initiative against modern guns and machines and +6 against artificial intelligences and computers. Aside from the lack of clarity (what if a robot is using a modern gun?), this ignores the basic fact that initiative is rolled against everyone participating in combat, not just against one person who has tech. Therefore, if a Cyber-Knight and a Burster (with no tech) are fighting against a Ley Line Walker (no tech) and a Borg (with tech), this bonus is impossible to implement.

Not really no.
If the cyberknight rolls a 10 lets say. And the borg rolls a 12... then the Cyberknight goes *before the borg* because he is facing a modern opponent and now adds +3 to his initiative.

You're quite right; it works in a 1-on-1 situation. Not all fights are duels.
Lets say we have a cyber-knight and an ally fighting a non-tech burster and a borg.
For initiative, the Borg rolls a 11
The Burster rolls a 10, so does the ally.
Cyber-Knight rolls a 9

Now, because the CK gets a bonus, the CK should go ahead of the Borg. However, that also puts the CK ahead of the burster and the ally. Does the CK go first now? Does the borg get bumped to last now? I don't see a way to play this out that makes sense and is consistent with the spirit or the letter of the Zen Combat rules.

In the same paragraph, we get the line "Also, the Cyber-Knight is +3 to Strike and Parry." Is this against robots or high-tech opponents, or just to everyone?

It is part of bullet point #2 so it applies to people using modern weapons/technology

That seems like a valid interpretation, but this shouldn't need interpretation.

In the next paragraph, "the Cyber-Knight's gun-toting or tech-laden opponent is -3 to dodge the Cyber-Knight's attacks and loses 2 melee attacks/actions due to time spent compensating for the Cyber-Knight's amazing agility, combat skills, and awareness." Here again, this become impossible to implement when more than one person is involved in combat. If the tech-laden opponent is also fighting a Cyber-Knight's ally, and only aims the occasional shot at the cyber-knight, how does that work out?

They are an opponent battles are not just some one-on-one duels that happen to be near each other. If the CK is fighting them, then they lose to melee attacks/actions unless they specifically state that they are totally ignoring the CK. In which case any and all attacks the CK makes against them are automatic surprise attacks.

So if someone doesn't even try to hit the CK, and might not even be aware of the CK, but happens to be on the opposite side in a fight, that person must consciously recognize the threat and willfully ignore the CK and state so? That seems like an impractical standard to apply in an RPG session.

At level five, the Cyber-Knight gets a +4 to automatic dodge against tech. This sounds cool at first, but what constitutes "tech"? It specifies guns and mechanical weapons. Is a bow a "mechanical weapon?" How about a crossbow? If a borg is throwing a spear, does that count as a "tech" attack? The definition here is so nebulous that two reasonable people could draw lines that are totally different. In a game that depends on a group of people sharing a common imaginary frame of reference, these definitions matter.

Yeah, this is pretty vague. But BCA has the answer "basically any machine with moving parts or that uses electricity or has a computer chip"
so Bow no, Crossbow yes.

Bows don't move during operation? They change shape, and the arrow itself is a "moving part" that slides against the bow as it gets launched. This seems arbitrary.

Level Six introduces "Cloud Sensors" which muddies things even further. Does this apply to all sensors used by anyone hostile to a Cyber-knight, even if they're only trying to engage one of the CK's allies? Do they still lose attacks figuring out what they're doing?

Yes. For example your fire control radar might be trying to lock on to the hover jeep...but it keeps on fritzing everytime a pulse touches the CK.
If the CK is in the area of effect where the sensor is sending out signals or collecting data from he messes with the sensor.

Such an interpretation seems monstrously overpowered. Any vehicle with an active radar on the opposite side from a CK in an armed conflict, who happens to have the CK in radar range, even if they aren't aware of the CK, would be affected by this interpretation.

Level Ten's improved auto-dodge also lacks context and other bonus information.

Technology was defined in the first Combat Awareness and Cloud Sensors.
So if something fits those definitions of technology it is tech.

and how do the dodge bonuses get totaled? Do PP bonuses count? Ordinary dodge bonuses?

In summary, Zen combat as written is impossible to apply in situations with mixed tech/non-tech combatants. Even if it was clarified, it requires impractical amounts of book-keeping on the GM's part to keep track of all bonuses from tech for all NPCs. In my opinion, it's better to simply get rid of the whole thing, throw out the entire "anti-tech" slant of the Cyber-Knights that isn't consistent with their fluff anyway, and adopt something like what the Psi-Warriors of Psyscape have, instead.

What do you think?

I think it does require an insane amount of book keeping yes.
Although it isnt quite as much as it looks to be on the surface. Most NPCs are not deeply nuanced. Thus it is usually farely easy to simply look at them and tell where most of their bonuses come from.
For an opponent that has any form of tech on them then they lose pretty much all bonuses. For those with out tech they have almost no penalty.

Thus, they kind of suck against demons and supernatural monsters, something that they should be good at fighting... it also arguably goes against their own code. After all, an opponent with a vibro-blade would get put at a severe disadvantage against a CK under these rules.

As for the NPCs not being deeply nuanced, that also speaks to how much of a problem Zen Combat is. If all we get from regular NPC's are their final bonuses, which presumably include any tech-related ones, then either we have to make some guesses, or we just don't use Zen Combat, because it is unworkable.

This said in my opinion the new Cyberknights ARE perfectly in keeping with the mythos. To me I see several things. I see them putting the "cyber" into the knight. This makes them "cyber" knights in a way that a random implant doesn't. Also it helps with what is, fundamentally, one of the biggest dangers on the continent. Evil People. No seriously. The entire *reason* that the continent is not unified into a stable government with laws and protections and such... is because of evil governments, the CS at the top of the list and even the evil magic governments rely heavily on TW. bandits (who use tech) are also topping the list there for dangers. This makes them the terror of criminals, bandits, and evil empires. And that helps their quest by making them a force multiplier. The tales and legends about them grow and grow turning them into the mythical boogymen of good that the fluff paints them as. Thus you dont need armies of them mobilizing all the time. Simply having a knight or two in an area is enough to quell a lot of banditry and make evil mercenaries and the like worry... basically making them into mobile areas of calm and sanctuary from some of the major threats in the world.
It also fits neatly with their origins. Their founder comes from Palladium after all. Thus he is a Clarks Law exemplar. To him technology is magic. And thus he sees the proliferation of technological weapons as increadibly dangerous due to the fact that unlike magic or martial arts do not take years and decades to master allowing for the fielding of massive armies of low skilled, low educated soldiers with vast power... something that in his world lead to the Elf Dwarf wars, several thousand years of bloodshed and horror that devistated his world and nearly destroyed it.

You would put bandits and the CS above the minion wars, the Federation of Magic's extremists, and the many supernatural predators out there? That's a fascinating perspective that we should probably dive into sometime.

I see the CK's as having value in two ways: protecting people by fighting foes they can't, and more importantly, inspiring people to become better to each other by personal example, showing them a better way. I have a somewhat more jaded perspective of Coake as a quixotic product of a feudal system that created him. The idea of empowering the masses is likely abhorrent to his aristocratic sensibilities; martial power should be in the hands of the worthy, and he has decided what that means with his code. This is the tragedy of the Cyber-Knights: they save the day, but they don't build. They bask in the praise of protected villagers who don't realize that they could and probably should take responsibility for protecting themselves. Ironically, it was arrogance and pride that led to the Elf-Dwarf Wars, and the Cyber-Knights have both in spades.

So yeah, to me it makes total sense.
Make a force to keep the techies in line lest they get out of hand and have another apocalypse.

That doesn't match up with their origins. When Cyber-Knights got started, there weren't a lot of tech powers out there, and the official line of the Cyber-Knights is not antagonistic towards the Coalition or any other tech power.

[eliakon]

Level 3: The character is allowed to fight and strike while moving and off balance. I wasn't aware that anyone else couldn't strike while moving (charge attacks? Jump kicks?), but I guess this means that the CK never needs to shoot wild. It's a bit of an odd bonus for an anti-tech character, but ok.

yeah, anyone moving while attacking is making wild attacks. This rule is almost never actually enforced...but it is what the rules are.

So a charge attack on horseback is a wild attack? This makes sense if you're attacking with a gun, spear, or hand grenade. It makes much less sense from a melee combat perspective.

If you don't have equestrian combat or something... yes.

The Cyber-Knight gets +3 initiative against modern guns and machines and +6 against artificial intelligences and computers. Aside from the lack of clarity (what if a robot is using a modern gun?), this ignores the basic fact that initiative is rolled against everyone participating in combat, not just against one person who has tech. Therefore, if a Cyber-Knight and a Burster (with no tech) are fighting against a Ley Line Walker (no tech) and a Borg (with tech), this bonus is impossible to implement.

Not really no.
If the cyberknight rolls a 10 lets say. And the borg rolls a 12... then the Cyberknight goes *before the borg* because he is facing a modern opponent and now adds +3 to his initiative.

You're quite right; it works in a 1-on-1 situation. Not all fights are duels.
Lets say we have a cyber-knight and an ally fighting a non-tech burster and a borg.
For initiative, the Borg rolls a 11
The Burster rolls a 10, so does the ally.
Cyber-Knight rolls a 9

Now, because the CK gets a bonus, the CK should go ahead of the Borg. However, that also puts the CK ahead of the burster and the ally. Does the CK go first now? Does the borg get bumped to last now? I don't see a way to play this out that makes sense and is consistent with the spirit or the letter of the Zen Combat rules.

The Cyberknight got to add +3 to his initiative.
That means he is now suddenly three places up the initiative ladder.
Just like if you get hit with a spell that raises or lowers your initiative you move your place.

In the same paragraph, we get the line "Also, the Cyber-Knight is +3 to Strike and Parry." Is this against robots or high-tech opponents, or just to everyone?

It is part of bullet point #2 so it applies to people using modern weapons/technology

That seems like a valid interpretation, but this shouldn't need interpretation.

I would say that its not an interpretation at all
It is quite literally part of the power. That one bullet point is the summation of that one power, thus everything in the bullet point is about the power, we don't assume that bullet points are about anything else...that's why you have sub points in the first place after all.

In the next paragraph, "the Cyber-Knight's gun-toting or tech-laden opponent is -3 to dodge the Cyber-Knight's attacks and loses 2 melee attacks/actions due to time spent compensating for the Cyber-Knight's amazing agility, combat skills, and awareness." Here again, this become impossible to implement when more than one person is involved in combat. If the tech-laden opponent is also fighting a Cyber-Knight's ally, and only aims the occasional shot at the cyber-knight, how does that work out?

They are an opponent battles are not just some one-on-one duels that happen to be near each other. If the CK is fighting them, then they lose to melee attacks/actions unless they specifically state that they are totally ignoring the CK. In which case any and all attacks the CK makes against them are automatic surprise attacks.

So if someone doesn't even try to hit the CK, and might not even be aware of the CK, but happens to be on the opposite side in a fight, that person must consciously recognize the threat and willfully ignore the CK and state so? That seems like an impractical standard to apply in an RPG session.

If you are on the opposite side in the conflict then your affected
Just like if you have hostile intent you break invisibility.
The only way I could plausibly see it *not* affecting a person is if they specifically and explicitly choose to ignore the knight in all ways.

At level five, the Cyber-Knight gets a +4 to automatic dodge against tech. This sounds cool at first, but what constitutes "tech"? It specifies guns and mechanical weapons. Is a bow a "mechanical weapon?" How about a crossbow? If a borg is throwing a spear, does that count as a "tech" attack? The definition here is so nebulous that two reasonable people could draw lines that are totally different. In a game that depends on a group of people sharing a common imaginary frame of reference, these definitions matter.

Yeah, this is pretty vague. But BCA has the answer "basically any machine with moving parts or that uses electricity or has a computer chip"
so Bow no, Crossbow yes.

Bows don't move during operation? They change shape, and the arrow itself is a "moving part" that slides against the bow as it gets launched. This seems arbitrary.

It is, but there has to be a line drawn someplace other wise it works against all weapons since they are all tools and thus machines.
A sword is just a lever which is a simple machine...
Thus the writer chose the line of "if the device itself has moving parts"

Level Six introduces "Cloud Sensors" which muddies things even further. Does this apply to all sensors used by anyone hostile to a Cyber-knight, even if they're only trying to engage one of the CK's allies? Do they still lose attacks figuring out what they're doing?

Yes. For example your fire control radar might be trying to lock on to the hover jeep...but it keeps on fritzing everytime a pulse touches the CK.
If the CK is in the area of effect where the sensor is sending out signals or collecting data from he messes with the sensor.

Such an interpretation seems monstrously overpowered. Any vehicle with an active radar on the opposite side from a CK in an armed conflict, who happens to have the CK in radar range, even if they aren't aware of the CK, would be affected by this interpretation.

Yep

Level Ten's improved auto-dodge also lacks context and other bonus information.

Technology was defined in the first Combat Awareness and Cloud Sensors.
So if something fits those definitions of technology it is tech.

and how do the dodge bonuses get totaled? Do PP bonuses count? Ordinary dodge bonuses?

Like any other dodge
Auto-dodges use PP and bonuses to Auto-Dodge only. There is no reason this would be any different.

In summary, Zen combat as written is impossible to apply in situations with mixed tech/non-tech combatants. Even if it was clarified, it requires impractical amounts of book-keeping on the GM's part to keep track of all bonuses from tech for all NPCs. In my opinion, it's better to simply get rid of the whole thing, throw out the entire "anti-tech" slant of the Cyber-Knights that isn't consistent with their fluff anyway, and adopt something like what the Psi-Warriors of Psyscape have, instead.

What do you think?

I think it does require an insane amount of book keeping yes.
Although it isnt quite as much as it looks to be on the surface. Most NPCs are not deeply nuanced. Thus it is usually farely easy to simply look at them and tell where most of their bonuses come from.
For an opponent that has any form of tech on them then they lose pretty much all bonuses. For those with out tech they have almost no penalty.

Thus, they kind of suck against demons and supernatural monsters, something that they should be good at fighting... it also arguably goes against their own code. After all, an opponent with a vibro-blade would get put at a severe disadvantage against a CK under these rules.

Why do they have to be the best at everything?
They don't "suck" against demons and monsters
Honestly that is the most laughable thing I have ever heard.
NO ONE in the RMB days said "Oh Cyberknights suck, they don't have any good powers and so the fact that they only have skills and psionics means they suck"
But some how now that they have all of that, plus more psionics, plus a boost against technology and TW and the like... the suck?

As for the NPCs not being deeply nuanced, that also speaks to how much of a problem Zen Combat is. If all we get from regular NPC's are their final bonuses, which presumably include any tech-related ones, then either we have to make some guesses, or we just don't use Zen Combat, because it is unworkable.

Or you know you look at the NPC and figure out that if it is level 3 with H2H basic and WP energy pistol that its bonuses are from that?

This said in my opinion the new Cyberknights ARE perfectly in keeping with the mythos. To me I see several things. I see them putting the "cyber" into the knight. This makes them "cyber" knights in a way that a random implant doesn't. Also it helps with what is, fundamentally, one of the biggest dangers on the continent. Evil People. No seriously. The entire *reason* that the continent is not unified into a stable government with laws and protections and such... is because of evil governments, the CS at the top of the list and even the evil magic governments rely heavily on TW. bandits (who use tech) are also topping the list there for dangers. This makes them the terror of criminals, bandits, and evil empires. And that helps their quest by making them a force multiplier. The tales and legends about them grow and grow turning them into the mythical boogymen of good that the fluff paints them as. Thus you dont need armies of them mobilizing all the time. Simply having a knight or two in an area is enough to quell a lot of banditry and make evil mercenaries and the like worry... basically making them into mobile areas of calm and sanctuary from some of the major threats in the world.
It also fits neatly with their origins. Their founder comes from Palladium after all. Thus he is a Clarks Law exemplar. To him technology is magic. And thus he sees the proliferation of technological weapons as increadibly dangerous due to the fact that unlike magic or martial arts do not take years and decades to master allowing for the fielding of massive armies of low skilled, low educated soldiers with vast power... something that in his world lead to the Elf Dwarf wars, several thousand years of bloodshed and horror that devastated his world and nearly destroyed it.

You would put bandits and the CS above the minion wars, the Federation of Magic's extremists, and the many supernatural predators out there? That's a fascinating perspective that we should probably dive into sometime.

The Minion Wars literally happened in the last year so that's sort of a non sequitur.
The FoM? Again as I said, the foot troops of the FoM are mostly armed with TW... which they work against
They help prevent the "casual use of force" basically.
They negate the 'low skill grunts' that make up the bulk of most modern fighting forces by requiring that the only foes that can face them are the time and resource intensive specialists.
You can churn out infantry in a couple weeks... but if that infantry can't use any gear you don't really have any infantry at all.
Churning out one Summoner to summon monsters for you takes years.
By removing grunts from the equation it makes war lords less likely to casually fight wars of aggression because they cant use cheep expendable assets to do the fighting. War hurts again. Not to mention as I said before they are still every bit as good against every other force out there as they were in the RMB when they were considered to be a good solid force and made sense. So why is getting a power that neutralizes the threat of mass mechanized warfare and makes wars of aggression and banditry not as attractive suddenly making them weaker?

I see the CK's as having value in two ways: protecting people by fighting foes they can't, and more importantly, inspiring people to become better to each other by personal example, showing them a better way. I have a somewhat more jaded perspective of Coake as a quixotic product of a feudal system that created him. The idea of empowering the masses is likely abhorrent to his aristocratic sensibilities; martial power should be in the hands of the worthy, and he has decided what that means with his code. This is the tragedy of the Cyber-Knights: they save the day, but they don't build. They bask in the praise of protected villagers who don't realize that they could and probably should take responsibility for protecting themselves. Ironically, it was arrogance and pride that led to the Elf-Dwarf Wars, and the Cyber-Knights have both in spades.

Exactly
And the foes that people can't are often more than just the bag of hit points in front of you.
It is not the CS soldier that is a danger. it is the mentality that sent them there that is the danger. You can kill CS soldiers all day and not do a thing to protect people.
Instead what you do is you make that CS General stop and consider if he wants to risk his forces attacking this D-Bee village because he knows there are some CKs in the area nd there is a chance that one or two of them might be there and massacre his infantry. He could send in his elite psi-bat forces to do the job as well... but he can't replace those losses as easily and that means that he might not be able to do this mission over here as well.
THAT is how you protect people.
The war that never happens is the best protection.

So yeah, to me it makes total sense.
Make a force to keep the techies in line lest they get out of hand and have another apocalypse.

That doesn't match up with their origins. When Cyber-Knights got started, there weren't a lot of tech powers out there, and the official line of the Cyber-Knights is not antagonistic towards the Coalition or any other tech power.

That the point though. Remember to Coake tech IS a form of magic. And especially since it makes it quite clear that in the early days surviving tech was often the source of power of the many petty warlords and bandits and such. When he started out there weren't a lot of options for people to turn to for dealing with a Glitter Boy pilot gone bad. It wasn't like there were show rooms of power armor all over, and centralized mercenary services or the like. Someone had to step up and protect the weak and innocent from those abusers... and it seems to me that Coake said that the someone might as well be him.

And they are not antagonistic towards tech powers. They are antagonisti towards the misuese of tech in ways that lead to suffering and wars and evil.

[Incriptus]

So for Part A of the debate:

I agree that Zen Combat is Broken at best and Unworkable at worst.

Giving him bonuses against some enemies, Negating some of his enemies bonuses, and then giving some of his enemies penalties creates a lot of confusion and gets even worse as multiple characters get involved.


Part B of the debate:

Cyber Knights were never "Cyber" enough for me and I like the idea of upping their tech/powers.

"Some believe the cyber-knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition."

"Others say that they came to fight the hordes of supernatural beings that terrorize the land"

It is quite odd that people have this illusion that the Cyber Knights were always some anti-supernatural group. I suppose it was because the Psi-Sword and other Psionics gave them an edge against Supernatural Critters that other Men of Arms didn't have. . . And if he did try to rely on his Cyber Knight abilities against a tech opponent he would be inferior to a man with a gun.

[Killer Cyborg]

So for Part A of the debate:

I agree that Zen Combat is Broken at best and Unworkable at worst.

Giving him bonuses against some enemies, Negating some of his enemies bonuses, and then giving some of his enemies penalties creates a lot of confusion and gets even worse as multiple characters get involved.


Part B of the debate:

Cyber Knights were never "Cyber" enough for me and I like the idea of upping their tech/powers.

I get that.
But giving them zen anti-tech powers isn't "cyber."
Magic popcorn-powered sonic flight would be about as appropriate.

It is quite odd that people have this illusion that the Cyber Knights were always some anti-supernatural group. I suppose it was because the Psi-Sword and other Psionics gave them an edge against Supernatural Critters that other Men of Arms didn't have. . . And if he did try to rely on his Cyber Knight abilities against a tech opponent he would be inferior to a man with a gun.

It always boggles me that people didn't consider Cyber Knights to BE men with guns.
They had a psychic sword that was roughly as powerful as a vibro-blade, and about as useful in combat. That's a backup weapon, not a primary weapon.
CKs weren't even required to be proficient with their Psi-Sword, but they all knew how to use guns.

In any case, I always thought of them as people who fought against evil and chaos in all its forms.... not who specialized against any one kind of danger.

[eliakon]

So for Part A of the debate:

I agree that Zen Combat is Broken at best and Unworkable at worst.

Giving him bonuses against some enemies, Negating some of his enemies bonuses, and then giving some of his enemies penalties creates a lot of confusion and gets even worse as multiple characters get involved.


Part B of the debate:

Cyber Knights were never "Cyber" enough for me and I like the idea of upping their tech/powers.

I get that.
But giving them zen anti-tech powers isn't "cyber."
Magic popcorn-powered sonic flight would be about as appropriate.

See I agree with Incriptus here. This is very much so cyber. It is the essence of cyber. The fusion of man and machine...
In this case the mans will instead of their body but they still are, in effect, remotely hacking into every technological device around them and toying with it on a grand scale. If that isnt "cyber" then I really dont know what would be short of turning them into some sort of Warlordesque 'borgs. I mean seriously, one of the defining traits of "cyberpunk" is the whole hacker thing. And that is what these guys are, they are the ultimate hackers. Just highly specialized and doing it intuitively via psionics instead of via a headjack and cyberdeck.

[Incriptus]

Again I do think there are fair points on both sides of the debate

If I had the power to retcon Zen Combat I would because I do think it is sloppy.

But I don't think it undermines the main character class. Ideally I would have installed further cybernetic advantages on the 30% of Cyber Knights who do not have psionic powers. Seeing as how the default Psionic powers are mostly Psychic Sensitive, I'm not offended by the [Machine] Combat Awareness. I would have played it as Cybernetic Implants that clouded sensors and kept an eye on other machines instead of it being a quasi-mystical/Psionic rapport with technology. [However Eliakon makes a good point]

On the Subject of The Psi-Sword being a Secondary Weapon ... Game Mechanics it is, But ...

The Psi-Sword has some 5 paragraphs dedicated to it, One of which says "When a knight in training can create a psi-sword, he or she is ready to become a full knight errant", And is in every picture, And is in every piece of fiction ... It is easy to say the mechanics don't fit the feel of it.

[Of course I may simply be guilty of what I accuse others of, and simply over emphasize something that is supposed to be more ceremonial than functional, like the importance of a cavalryman's saber, in an age of modern warfare]


P.S. Cyber Knights always got 2 Modern 2 Ancient Weapon, it is just as likely he wouldn't pick Energy Rifle as he wouldn't pick Sword.

[Killer Cyborg]

So for Part A of the debate:

I agree that Zen Combat is Broken at best and Unworkable at worst.

Giving him bonuses against some enemies, Negating some of his enemies bonuses, and then giving some of his enemies penalties creates a lot of confusion and gets even worse as multiple characters get involved.


Part B of the debate:

Cyber Knights were never "Cyber" enough for me and I like the idea of upping their tech/powers.

I get that.
But giving them zen anti-tech powers isn't "cyber."
Magic popcorn-powered sonic flight would be about as appropriate.

See I agree with Incriptus here. This is very much so cyber. It is the essence of cyber. The fusion of man and machine...
In this case the mans will instead of their body but they still are, in effect, remotely hacking into every technological device around them and toying with it on a grand scale. If that isnt "cyber" then I really dont know what would be short of turning them into some sort of Warlordesque 'borgs. I mean seriously, one of the defining traits of "cyberpunk" is the whole hacker thing. And that is what these guys are, they are the ultimate hackers. Just highly specialized and doing it intuitively via psionics instead of via a headjack and cyberdeck.

Hacking is a single slice of cyberpunk, mostly due to hacking being allowed by cybernetic implants.
Zen meditation that lets people avoid machines isn't really hacking.

I get what you're saying; I just disagree, especially since--as you point out--this is effectively (but not specifically) psychic in nature, NOT cybernetic.
If the exact same powers came from "cybernetic implants and/or nanites," that would be one thing.
But instead it comes from "Zen."

And if the power allowed for control over machines, that'd be kinda "cyber" (if it was cybernetic in origin), but it doesn't really do that.
It lets the CK be aware of machines.
It lets the CK dodge against machines because they're so fast, mobile, and "aware."
Starting at 6th level, they can cloud sensors. That's kinda almost like hacking, except there's no programming involved, and no knowledge required. It's no more cyber than the HU power that lets you be invisible to machines. Arguably less so.

Find me any Cyberpunk novel where the cyberness is summed up as "machines have to squint more if they want to see you, because you're so zen" instead of "actual cybernetic implants," and I'll be not only amazed, but also disappointed that such a novel is considered to be "cyberpunk."

Operators have outright Telemechanics, and Psi-Mechanics have similar powers that give them greater understanding and control over machines than Cyber Knights have.
Does that make them more "cyber?"
In my book, it only makes them more psychic.

[Hotrod]

The Cyber-Knight gets +3 initiative against modern guns and machines and +6 against artificial intelligences and computers. Aside from the lack of clarity (what if a robot is using a modern gun?), this ignores the basic fact that initiative is rolled against everyone participating in combat, not just against one person who has tech. Therefore, if a Cyber-Knight and a Burster (with no tech) are fighting against a Ley Line Walker (no tech) and a Borg (with tech), this bonus is impossible to implement.

Not really no.
If the cyberknight rolls a 10 lets say. And the borg rolls a 12... then the Cyberknight goes *before the borg* because he is facing a modern opponent and now adds +3 to his initiative.

You're quite right; it works in a 1-on-1 situation. Not all fights are duels.
Lets say we have a cyber-knight and an ally fighting a non-tech burster and a borg.
For initiative, the Borg rolls a 11
The Burster rolls a 10, so does the ally.
Cyber-Knight rolls a 9

Now, because the CK gets a bonus, the CK should go ahead of the Borg. However, that also puts the CK ahead of the burster and the ally. Does the CK go first now? Does the borg get bumped to last now? I don't see a way to play this out that makes sense and is consistent with the spirit or the letter of the Zen Combat rules.

The Cyberknight got to add +3 to his initiative.
That means he is now suddenly three places up the initiative ladder.
Just like if you get hit with a spell that raises or lowers your initiative you move your place.

Let's look at the text

The Cyber-Knight knows what his opponent is doing the same instant his opponent does it, enabling the Knight to react a split second faster: +3 on initiative against attacks from modern guns and machines (bionics, robots, etc), and +6 against artificial intelligences and computers like Skelebots and automated defense systems.

In the scenario I gave, if you give the Cyber-Knight a +3, he doesn't just jump ahead of his tech opponent. He also jumps ahead of his non-tech opponent and non-tech ally. The Cyber-knight might strike and kill the enemy burster who never has a chance to activate his flame defenses, all because the burster happens to be on the same side as a borg and opposing a Cyber-Knight. I see no way to fix this rule as written to meet its intent without breaking combat for other participants.

In the same paragraph, we get the line "Also, the Cyber-Knight is +3 to Strike and Parry." Is this against robots or high-tech opponents, or just to everyone?

It is part of bullet point #2 so it applies to people using modern weapons/technology

That seems like a valid interpretation, but this shouldn't need interpretation.

I would say that its not an interpretation at all
It is quite literally part of the power. That one bullet point is the summation of that one power, thus everything in the bullet point is about the power, we don't assume that bullet points are about anything else...that's why you have sub points in the first place after all.

Ok, but are you applying this like you're applying the initiative bonus in this same section, where 20 non-tech people and 1 tech person attacks, and the CK gets the bonus against everyone because of the one tech person? That seems to go against both the spirit and the letter of Zen Combat. It's like X-Men 3, where all the Soldiers divest themselves of all metal when they go up against Magneto. If one dude forgot to ditch his dog tags, that shouldn't affect everyone else equally.

In summary, Zen combat as written is impossible to apply in situations with mixed tech/non-tech combatants. Even if it was clarified, it requires impractical amounts of book-keeping on the GM's part to keep track of all bonuses from tech for all NPCs. In my opinion, it's better to simply get rid of the whole thing, throw out the entire "anti-tech" slant of the Cyber-Knights that isn't consistent with their fluff anyway, and adopt something like what the Psi-Warriors of Psyscape have, instead.

What do you think?

I think it does require an insane amount of book keeping yes.
Although it isnt quite as much as it looks to be on the surface. Most NPCs are not deeply nuanced. Thus it is usually farely easy to simply look at them and tell where most of their bonuses come fro.m.
For an opponent that has any form of tech on them then they lose pretty much all bonuses. For those with out tech they have almost no penalty.

Thus, they kind of suck against demons and supernatural monsters, something that they should be good at fighting... it also arguably goes against their own code. After all, an opponent with a vibro-blade would get put at a severe disadvantage against a CK under these rules.

Why do they have to be the best at everything?
They don't "suck" against demons and monsters
Honestly that is the most laughable thing I have ever heard.
NO ONE in the RMB days said "Oh Cyberknights suck, they don't have any good powers and so the fact that they only have skills and psionics means they suck"
But some how now that they have all of that, plus more psionics, plus a boost against technology and TW and the like... the suck?

If that's the most laughable thing you've ever heard, go watch the Chappelle show. Zen combat, if actually implemented as you interpret, gives the CK wildly disproportionate power against technology, whilst being nothing special against supernatural threats. Thus, relative to their effectiveness against anyone using anything more technologically advanced than a spear, they suck against the supernatural.

As for the NPCs not being deeply nuanced, that also speaks to how much of a problem Zen Combat is. If all we get from regular NPC's are their final bonuses, which presumably include any tech-related ones, then either we have to make some guesses, or we just don't use Zen Combat, because it is unworkable.

Or you know you look at the NPC and figure out that if it is level 3 with H2H basic and WP energy pistol that its bonuses are from that?

Ok. Is the NPC made using RMB or RUE rules? Do you know both bonuses by heart? What type of pistol is the NPC using, and does it come with any bonuses to strike? Are those bonuses from a weapon sight or from the pistol's balance (do the Wilk's balance and quality-based bonus to aimed shots count as tech bonuses?) Is the NPC using any kind of armor-based optics? Book-provided NPCs don't provide these answers, and attempting to recreate them involves multiple judgment calls and guesswork. Combat is supposed to be fast-paced, and if we actually try to implement this, it will bog down fast.

This said in my opinion the new Cyberknights ARE perfectly in keeping with the mythos. To me I see several things. I see them putting the "cyber" into the knight. This makes them "cyber" knights in a way that a random implant doesn't. Also it helps with what is, fundamentally, one of the biggest dangers on the continent. Evil People. No seriously. The entire *reason* that the continent is not unified into a stable government with laws and protections and such... is because of evil governments, the CS at the top of the list and even the evil magic governments rely heavily on TW. bandits (who use tech) are also topping the list there for dangers. This makes them the terror of criminals, bandits, and evil empires. And that helps their quest by making them a force multiplier. The tales and legends about them grow and grow turning them into the mythical boogymen of good that the fluff paints them as. Thus you dont need armies of them mobilizing all the time. Simply having a knight or two in an area is enough to quell a lot of banditry and make evil mercenaries and the like worry... basically making them into mobile areas of calm and sanctuary from some of the major threats in the world.
It also fits neatly with their origins. Their founder comes from Palladium after all. Thus he is a Clarks Law exemplar. To him technology is magic. And thus he sees the proliferation of technological weapons as increadibly dangerous due to the fact that unlike magic or martial arts do not take years and decades to master allowing for the fielding of massive armies of low skilled, low educated soldiers with vast power... something that in his world lead to the Elf Dwarf wars, several thousand years of bloodshed and horror that devastated his world and nearly destroyed it.

You would put bandits and the CS above the minion wars, the Federation of Magic's extremists, and the many supernatural predators out there? That's a fascinating perspective that we should probably dive into sometime.

The Minion Wars literally happened in the last year so that's sort of a non sequitur.
The FoM? Again as I said, the foot troops of the FoM are mostly armed with TW... which they work against
They help prevent the "casual use of force" basically.
They negate the 'low skill grunts' that make up the bulk of most modern fighting forces by requiring that the only foes that can face them are the time and resource intensive specialists.
You can churn out infantry in a couple weeks... but if that infantry can't use any gear you don't really have any infantry at all.
Churning out one Summoner to summon monsters for you takes years.
By removing grunts from the equation it makes war lords less likely to casually fight wars of aggression because they cant use cheep expendable assets to do the fighting. War hurts again. Not to mention as I said before they are still every bit as good against every other force out there as they were in the RMB when they were considered to be a good solid force and made sense. So why is getting a power that neutralizes the threat of mass mechanized warfare and makes wars of aggression and banditry not as attractive suddenly making them weaker?

The Cyber-Knights showed up about 190 years before the in-game present day. There were no large-scale tech powers then, and there were lots of supernatural threats (still are, for that matter). I'll table that topic, however, because I'm more interested in where we agree. Coake is a product of an elitist feudal system, and the idea of arming peasants is likely antithetical to his sense of propriety. I personally think he's wrong, and the entire concept of knighthood is inherently flawed and self-defeating. When most people harmless and dependent upon others for defense, warlords are more likely to be aggressive because they know that there are few people out there who can oppose them. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that Cyber-Knights stay true and good. Unlike the Cosmo-Knights, there is no higher power keeping them on the straight and narrow, and their organization is almost non-existent; they answer to no authority other than the callings of their own hearts and the Code of Chivalry. I see that as a far more unstable and dangerous approach then arming and training people to protect themselves. I'd rather have a village protected by a Rifts version of the Minutemen than a Cyber-Knight.

Even so, your perspective of Coake seeing tech as a greater threat than magic seems wrong to me. To turn your allusion on its head, it takes years to design, prototype, and manufacture a laser rifle. That summoner who spent years learning circle magic can summon expendable minions over, and over again in far less time and with fewer resources than it takes to train up an infantryman. That demon will be more powerful than a grunt, and there's no pressing need to care for it in the long run (or pay it, for that matter). Fighting using expendable magic slave soldiers is a lot less painful than paying to recruit, train, and arm a soldier. If this is truly why Coake has pursued such an anti-tech slant for his disciple warriors, then his priorities are badly skewed.

I see the CK's as having value in two ways: protecting people by fighting foes they can't, and more importantly, inspiring people to become better to each other by personal example, showing them a better way. I have a somewhat more jaded perspective of Coake as a quixotic product of a feudal system that created him. The idea of empowering the masses is likely abhorrent to his aristocratic sensibilities; martial power should be in the hands of the worthy, and he has decided what that means with his code. This is the tragedy of the Cyber-Knights: they save the day, but they don't build. They bask in the praise of protected villagers who don't realize that they could and probably should take responsibility for protecting themselves. Ironically, it was arrogance and pride that led to the Elf-Dwarf Wars, and the Cyber-Knights have both in spades.

Exactly
And the foes that people can't are often more than just the bag of hit points in front of you.
It is not the CS soldier that is a danger. it is the mentality that sent them there that is the danger. You can kill CS soldiers all day and not do a thing to protect people.
Instead what you do is you make that CS General stop and consider if he wants to risk his forces attacking this D-Bee village because he knows there are some CKs in the area nd there is a chance that one or two of them might be there and massacre his infantry. He could send in his elite psi-bat forces to do the job as well... but he can't replace those losses as easily and that means that he might not be able to do this mission over here as well.
THAT is how you protect people.
The war that never happens is the best protection.

From both a philosophical and a practical perspective, I reject the idea that one or two people rescuing the village is a good or sustainable idea. One or two CK's aren't going to massacre more than a squad or two. Eventually, enough people will roll natural 20's that the CK's will go down, and that's assuming that the CK's even show up in the first place. Now, if all able-bodied folks in the whole village are packing Northern Gun armor and weapons, that's a different story. It may seem unfashionable to say this, but if I lived in Rifts Earth, I'd be a lot more excited about seeing a Northern Gun sales rep come to town than a Cyber-Knight.

So yeah, to me it makes total sense.
Make a force to keep the techies in line lest they get out of hand and have another apocalypse.

That doesn't match up with their origins. When Cyber-Knights got started, there weren't a lot of tech powers out there, and the official line of the Cyber-Knights is not antagonistic towards the Coalition or any other tech power.

That the point though. Remember to Coake tech IS a form of magic. And especially since it makes it quite clear that in the early days surviving tech was often the source of power of the many petty warlords and bandits and such. When he started out there weren't a lot of options for people to turn to for dealing with a Glitter Boy pilot gone bad. It wasn't like there were show rooms of power armor all over, and centralized mercenary services or the like. Someone had to step up and protect the weak and innocent from those abusers... and it seems to me that Coake said that the someone might as well be him.

And they are not antagonistic towards tech powers. They are antagonisti towards the misuese of tech in ways that lead to suffering and wars and evil.

In what way is magic intrinsically less accessible than tech? There are magic items aplenty out there, many of which are just as powerful as their tech counterparts. Some are more so. If you're worried about people becoming too powerful too fast, I'd be more worried about magic. It takes years to master technology and lots of money to acquire it; You can't just mutter a few words or touch a magic tattoo and conjure up a laser rifle. You can't just summon a dozen giant robots and order them to kill your enemies.

Coake is fond of collecting magic items and giving them out to people he likes. He comes from a world in which alchemists create and sell magic items to non-magic-users. This is essentially the same role that Operators and Cyber-Docs play. Knights and Palladins of Palladium train for years and get horses and elite weapons which grant them decisive advantages over most people. So do Robot and Power Armor pilots. The objections you raise seem to stem from a mistrust of industrialization and mass production, but that industrialization exists for magic, technology, bio-wizardry, and combinations thereof in Rifts Earth.

[Dustin Fireblade]

My group didn't like the change, and we kicked around some idea's about it.

One player thought to just give them the psi-power of Sixth Sense for free, but only against tech.

Another player thought about using some sort of system that would mimic the Psi-Nullifier, but again only against tech.

A third had the idea of just taking the "cloud sensors" ability from zen combat and applying a level increasing penalty to sensory equipment skill checks and targeting computers, ignoring everything else zen combat.


At the end of the day we just dropped it completely and gave the class HtH Commando and dropped the whole zen combat.

[Hotrod]

After reading through the Psi-Warrior again, I have to say that it would be a poor substitute for Zen Combat, as it just grants Psionic powers for the most part. Dustin's idea of hand-to-hand:Commando sounds a lot better than my initial Psi-Warrior idea, though it doesn't quite cover what seems thematically appropriate for Cyber-Knights. Something akin to a Chinese or Japanese-style specialty hand-to-hand might work well, especially if it managed to gel with the cyber-nature of the knights.

Killer Cyborg and I agree on the interpretation of Cyber, and I prefer the Savage Rifts fluff in which nanites in the Cyber-Armor play a key role in their special powers. If I were going to rewrite the Cyber-Knights, I'd have the knight's psionic mind directly connect to the Cyber-armor within him/herself, and as the bond develops, the knight's cyber-armor would attune to the knight and become a potent psionic focusing device (analogous to Crystal devices from Palladium Fantasy or Caliber-X, King Arr'Thuu's sword from Rifts: England).

Thus the Cyber-Knight would remain both cybernetic and psionic in concept, and these dual natures reinforce each other. Rather than all Cyber-Knights being anti-tech by design, each Knight would develop abilities in a more individual and less regimented/linear fashion. The Cyber armor itself would go from being a second-rate backup armor to an essential aspect of the class that is just as essential as the Psi-Sword.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Every time the issues with Zen Combat arises, I generally post this link:

http://www.prysus.com/hth_spirit_knight.htm

This is meant as an alternative to the RUE/SoT4 updates. I don't focus much on the "cyber" part but do try to provide a variety of paths for the knight to focus. At least one of the abilities is nearly a copy of one of the Zen Combat abilities and will run into some of the same issues (because I wanted to keep this as more of an alternative instead of just scrapping what Palladium did).

While not perfect, maybe some will find it preferable to the official version. Maybe not. *Shrugs.* Thank you for your time and patience. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

I'm so glad I've never had a player want to be a CK.

[shadrak]

I haven't played any Cyber-Knights since the change in Siege of Tolkeen and I rarely integrate Cyber Knight characters into my campaigns...


Here are a couple more questions:
1. What are the effects of cyberknights on technowizard devices?
2. What happens when you have multiple cyberknights on both sides?

I don't see the original CyberKnight as an anti-SN or as an anti-tech OCC...

I had seen them as a melding of Cyber characters and Psychic Characters...now, mixing cyber and psychics is more common and psionics don't penalize players as greatly as before RUE.

I also feel zen combat is unweildy, but I also apply a radius effect to the cyberknight's capabilities. I would have to look at my notes for the last Cyber knight NPC I used, but I think I gave the area of effect for cyberknight capabilities as Line of Sight between enemy and the knight providing an "umbrella" equal to 5 or 10 (I can't remember which) feet radius per lvl...

So, a level 5 cyberknight affects attackers that have a Line of Sight (this would include spotters, but would not include an artillery team)...the penalties and bonuses would be applied to any attacker attacking any object within the cyberknight's area of effect...

Just a house rule, but I think that is how I dealt with that problem...

With regard to "tech weapons", I treated it as anything that utilized a MODERN WP or used electronics/computers, it was affected (Vibroswords, etc.).

I would allow crossbows and bows and atlatl driven spears or spring loaded knives to be used without penalty...including compound bows...and I would allow bows that fired modern warheads to be unaffected as well.

I WOULD affect vibroswords. I also generally affected TechnoWizard devices.

For penalties, I believe I applied the GREATER penalty, but I did not combine them.

For AUTOMATIC DODGE, I treated it as a NORMAL automatic dodge--that is, no bonus from H2H (except Commando) or from Physical skills, but PP bonuses and SPECIFIC AUTOMATIC DODGE bonuses do apply.

Again, I have avoided Cyberknights because they have become unwieldy, but these were my "fixes".

[Jorick]

I'm not a fan of the zen combat change. It's clunky, no matter how one looks at it. Even if it's cool thematically, it's a lot of info. One could simply have some flat bonuses against tech. The way its written seems needlessly complicated to me.

The initiative issue is interesting. The cyber knight gets +3 against the borg, and only the borg. He doesn't get to attack the burster or whatever first because a borg is there. He gets +3 if he's attacking the borg or the borg is attacking him. The burster would go first, the cyber knight second *if he chooses to attack the borg.*

The issues I see with the way that plays out are mostly issues inherent in the initiative system as it is. Initiative forces a narrative that isn't always there. Usually, everyone fights at once, and we tally the result every "15 seconds." Until someone lands a killing blow which prevents further action on the part of the killed. Thus forcing "tally the result after 15 seconds" to "this guy goes first, then that guy, then that guy." It's always clunky and confusing in every game that uses a similar system (which is pretty much all of them, to my knowledge, unless they're heavily narrative--and even then, turn taking is usually a thing and breaks the narrative into game pieces).

It can easily be argued that adding the element of subjective initiative is adding even more needless complication. Generally players figure out turn order and then figure out what to do. In this case, the player would have to choose what to do first (or the GM would have to throw him a bone and say "you sense the borg is going after you" or something). In a more narrative game, the GM would definitely say "you sense the borg is about to do X" and the player would be able to call out an interruption of some sort against the borg and only the borg without messing up much else. The way Rifts tends to play, if the CK called that out then the GM would either have to be nice, or, if playing the NPC like a player would normally play, would change his intention for the burster and say, "well, the burster would have attacked the ally, but he knows you're a CK and that you'll give the borg a hard time, so he goes after you, negating any advantage you may have had over the borg." Just writing this all is making my head hurt.

I don't hate the combat system in palladium more than I do in other systems. The "better" combat systems are in games where combat/tactics is much more important to the rules than narrative, and takes over, which is as frustrating to me. Or the game just offers very little diversity for players (I'm all for a "lack of balance"). Only narrative style games deal with combat in a way I like. I wish someone capable suggested Fate before Savage Worlds for a new version. Palladium at least begs for narrative, even if it doesn't really rule for it. All that being said, the more little bitty rules like Zen Combat you add to the Palladium combat system, the more the system falls apart at worst, or becomes incredibly time consuming at best (which is at least as bad as spending all day setting up minis just to knock them down from a GM perspective, but most definitely worse from a player's perspective).

[Hotrod]

The initiative issue is interesting. The cyber knight gets +3 against the borg, and only the borg. He doesn't get to attack the burster or whatever first because a borg is there. He gets +3 if he's attacking the borg or the borg is attacking him. The burster would go first, the cyber knight second *if he chooses to attack the borg.*

(snipping out an interesting bit on combat mechanics vs narratives)

That's a nice workaround for the specific scenario I raised, but it also breaks down quickly if the Cyber-knight is taking an action that isn't against any specific foe ("I turn on my force field") or taking an action that affects both tech and non-tech foes ("I throw a hand grenade into the room").

You raise some interesting points on combat mechanics-focused combat vs narrative-focused combat. Zen combat doesn't seem to be workable for either approach.

[eliakon]

The initiative issue is interesting. The cyber knight gets +3 against the borg, and only the borg. He doesn't get to attack the burster or whatever first because a borg is there. He gets +3 if he's attacking the borg or the borg is attacking him. The burster would go first, the cyber knight second *if he chooses to attack the borg.*

(snipping out an interesting bit on combat mechanics vs narratives)

That's a nice workaround for the specific scenario I raised, but it also breaks down quickly if the Cyber-knight is taking an action that isn't against any specific foe ("I turn on my force field") or taking an action that affects both tech and non-tech foes ("I throw a hand grenade into the room").

You raise some interesting points on combat mechanics-focused combat vs narrative-focused combat. Zen combat doesn't seem to be workable for either approach.

it doesn't have to break down.
They are not against the borg so they don't get the bonus.

[Axelmania]

Level 2: The cyber-knight gets paired weapons and W.P. Shield. Here's a problem: The bonuses to W.P. shield are given as starting at Level 1, but the character gets it at Level 2, and the last shield parry bonus comes at Level 15. We now have to make a judgment call: start W.P. shield at Level 2 proficiency, or start it at Level 1?

Oddly enough, the Shield skill on RUE pg 327 gives +5 to parry by level 13, and +3 to strike by level 12. Page 65 has a different progression of parrying bonuses. It wouldn't make sense to give a unique set of bonuses that begin at 1st level which doesn't apply until 2nd level. You'd expect to see 2/3/6/9/12/15 instead of 1/3/6/9/12/15

It is convenient to need to +1 that entire list, if you're going to have a unique progression for the knights it would make more sense to just work it into the table and list the actual levels.

There's not actually a problem with a 15th level skill bonus which a Cyber-Knight wouldn't gain until 16th level though. Palladium experience tables all say when level 15 ends, so 1 higher is where 16 begins. We just don't know where 16 ends and 17 begins.

[Vrykolas2k]

I would have worked it differently.
I would have given the CK a flat +3 Initiative, +2 Strike, +3 Parry and Dodge vs Tech, and an MD Death Blow vs Supernatural, as well as their psi-weapons going up in damage over levels, and their cyber-armour improving... thus, they're not just "Anti-CS", but able to take on tech opponents and do what I originally read them to be able to do, which is combat supernatural evil.

[Axelmania]

Might just be easier to whip out Powers Unlimited and give them them Energy Shield (pg 24-25) at 1st level, Mechanical Awareness (pg 35) at 4th level and Frequency Absorbtion (pg 28) at 6th.

[Hotrod]

The initiative issue is interesting. The cyber knight gets +3 against the borg, and only the borg. He doesn't get to attack the burster or whatever first because a borg is there. He gets +3 if he's attacking the borg or the borg is attacking him. The burster would go first, the cyber knight second *if he chooses to attack the borg.*

(snipping out an interesting bit on combat mechanics vs narratives)

That's a nice workaround for the specific scenario I raised, but it also breaks down quickly if the Cyber-knight is taking an action that isn't against any specific foe ("I turn on my force field") or taking an action that affects both tech and non-tech foes ("I throw a hand grenade into the room").

You raise some interesting points on combat mechanics-focused combat vs narrative-focused combat. Zen combat doesn't seem to be workable for either approach.

it doesn't have to break down.
They are not against the borg so they don't get the bonus.

If the CK throws a grenade into a room that has both a borg (tech) and a burster (no tech), the action is against both, as the grenade will hit both. If the CK throws a grenade at the borg, but it hits the burser, too, how does that work?

Defensive actions are still "against" foes, which can include both tech and non-tech. One doesn't defend against nothing, after all (unless you're in the Neverending Story, in which case it's "The Nothing").

[dreicunan]

My fix for initiative is that if any opponent is using something that qualifies, they get it.

[Axelmania]

Whether or not it's an attack comes down to intention rather than danger. Someone with invisibility superior can do target practice and if another person with invisibility superior happens to walk in the line of fire, hitting them with your bullets doesn't ruin your invisibility since you were not intending to engage in combat.

Similar to how you can choose to explode a building if you think it is empty. It's only an 'attack' if you think there are people inside.

You can also eat a fairy hiding inside your hamburger so long as you don't know the fairy is there and you think it's just already-dead beef.

The best trick would probably be to Hypnotic Suggestion someone who is Invisible Superior into attacking your enemies whilst convincing them there are no victims so they don't lose their shroud.