How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

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What do you add to your disarm roll?

Disarm Bonuses Only! It's a special move, after all, so no PP or strike bonuses should apply.
5
31%
Strike Bonuses Plus Disarm! It's just a specialized offensive strike after all.
5
31%
Bah! These choices are lame. I do my own thing, which I shall describe in a reply.
6
38%
 
Total votes: 16

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Hotrod
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How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Simple question today. When you roll to disarm an opponent, do you use the disarm bonus only, or do you add it to the strike bonus? Or do you do something else?
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by dreicunan »

Hotrod wrote:Simple question today. When you roll to disarm an opponent, do you use the disarm bonus only, or do you add it to the strike bonus? Or do you do something else?

Should we assume that this is only referring to an offensive disarm, and not a defensive?
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Hotrod »

dreicunan wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Simple question today. When you roll to disarm an opponent, do you use the disarm bonus only, or do you add it to the strike bonus? Or do you do something else?

Should we assume that this is only referring to an offensive disarm, and not a defensive?

Sure? I've never used it defensively.
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Shark_Force »

i would add PP bonus, but not strike bonuses.
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Warshield73 »

dreicunan wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Simple question today. When you roll to disarm an opponent, do you use the disarm bonus only, or do you add it to the strike bonus? Or do you do something else?

Should we assume that this is only referring to an offensive disarm, and not a defensive?

How do you use it defensively? I have always considered this a strike.
Shark_Force wrote:i would add PP bonus, but not strike bonuses.

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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Shark_Force wrote:i would add PP bonus, but not strike bonuses.

+1

Combat Bonuses only stack with like combat bonuses. Sometimes those like combat bonuses might have additional situational parameters that might allow them to be added in or not. This means that Disarm Bonuses stack (when appropriate) with each other, but not with Strike or other bonuses.

The one exception would be the PP Bonus. We know from the specific listing it is "strike, parry, dodge", but we also know PP applies to Auto-Dodge which means it would apply to other combat bonus categories (Auto-Dodge, Entangle, Disarm).

Warshield73 wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Simple question today. When you roll to disarm an opponent, do you use the disarm bonus only, or do you add it to the strike bonus? Or do you do something else?

Should we assume that this is only referring to an offensive disarm, and not a defensive?

How do you use it defensively? I have always considered this a strike.

RUE pg 345 on the Disarm Term "...It can be used as a defensive move in place of a dodge or parry, or can be done as an attack/strike." It then goes on in a bit more detail, but the options is there.

I don't know how far back this definition goes for Palladium RPGs, but that appears to be the working definition for Rifts currently (the term isn't in RMB).
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

PP and Disarm bonuses only, in place of a parry.
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Mlp7029 »

Warshield73 wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Simple question today. When you roll to disarm an opponent, do you use the disarm bonus only, or do you add it to the strike bonus? Or do you do something else?

Should we assume that this is only referring to an offensive disarm, and not a defensive?

How do you use it defensively? I have always considered this a strike.
Shark_Force wrote:i would add PP bonus, but not strike bonuses.

This is what I do.

The Disarm write up in the Rifts Conversion book says you can do a disarm instead of a parry or dodge but it reques a natural roll of 19 or 20.
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Mlp7029 »

I allow PP bonuses with Disarm but no other strike bonuses for a Disarm substituted for an offensive strike.
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Hotrod »

I have to say, I like the P.P. bonus with disarm for both offense and defense. That said, is there any canon reference to back that up?
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Prysus »

Greetings and Salutations. As an individual, I want to say I've always run it as Disarm bonus plus P.P. bonus. With that said, from what I can tell by the actual book (and the option I thereby voted), the answer is ...

Disarm (defensive): Natural 19 or 20 only. Bonuses and skill are irrelevant, only luck matters. As far as I can tell the only good reason to use this maneuver is if you need a Nat 19 or 20 to defend anyways. Then it's kind of a "Oh well, no reason NOT to, I guess."

Disarm (offensive): Roll with bonuses to Strike (plus any special Disarm bonuses). RUE, page 345 (under Disarm) there's a few lines that tell us how to treat this. First paragraph states: "It can be used as ... an attack/strike." Now this could be "strike" in the general usage of the term, so that doesn't mean much on its own.

Second paragraph states: "The disarm is a strike, hold or grappling maneuver ..." Once again we see the term strike, but that doesn't necessarily tell us much as "grappling" isn't a specific Palladium combat maneuver either. Now "holds" are a Palladium combat technique, and it has a line that states (on the same page as above): "If the strike is successful, then the victim is helpless until released." At no point does it give us more of a game mechanic, but it does refer to it as a "strike" (similar to Disarm). Outside of N&S (and maybe Rifts Japan and China), I don't believe any Hand to Hand provides bonuses to Hold. So if we determine Holds work as a normal strike (because I'm reluctant to believe it's intended as natural roll only), then this can be an insight into Disarm. Note: Holds further discuss mechanics for breaking and/or maintaining a Hold, but not how to begin one.

Third paragraph states: "Roll a disarming strike to attack as usual - high roll wins." This one uses the term "disarming strike." This could be a vague combat roll never described, or (as I read it) is basically just telling us to roll to strike as normal. The fact it adds "as usual" to me indicates that this functions like normal, not a special exception.

Disarm (much like Holds, Body Block/Tackle, Kick Attacks, etc.) aren't clearly defined into a mechanic. However, it doesn't actually deal damage. In an evenly matched battle, the Disarming character will probably take a few hits in the process of trying (along with some failures). If the opponent is only powerful due to a single item (which means they weren't very well balanced or thought out), or has been disarmed of several weapons in a row (which most likely means they were already outclassed), then I'm probably okay with the result. Others may have a different opinion, of course. Anyways, hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Mlp7029 wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Simple question today. When you roll to disarm an opponent, do you use the disarm bonus only, or do you add it to the strike bonus? Or do you do something else?

Should we assume that this is only referring to an offensive disarm, and not a defensive?

How do you use it defensively? I have always considered this a strike.
Shark_Force wrote:i would add PP bonus, but not strike bonuses.

This is what I do.

The Disarm write up in the Rifts Conversion book says you can do a disarm instead of a parry or dodge but it reques a natural roll of 19 or 20.

RUE was a change for rules written after that book. So RUE write up is the one that is currently valid.
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Prysus wrote:
Greetings and Salutations. As an individual, I want to say I've always run it as Disarm bonus plus P.P. bonus. With that said, from what I can tell by the actual book (and the option I thereby voted), the answer is ...

Disarm (defensive): Natural 19 or 20 only. Bonuses and skill are irrelevant, only luck matters. As far as I can tell the only good reason to use this maneuver is if you need a Nat 19 or 20 to defend anyways. Then it's kind of a "Oh well, no reason NOT to, I guess."

Disarm (offensive): Roll with bonuses to Strike (plus any special Disarm bonuses). RUE, page 345 (under Disarm) there's a few lines that tell us how to treat this. First paragraph states: "It can be used as ... an attack/strike." Now this could be "strike" in the general usage of the term, so that doesn't mean much on its own.

Second paragraph states: "The disarm is a strike, hold or grappling maneuver ..." Once again we see the term strike, but that doesn't necessarily tell us much as "grappling" isn't a specific Palladium combat maneuver either. Now "holds" are a Palladium combat technique, and it has a line that states (on the same page as above): "If the strike is successful, then the victim is helpless until released." At no point does it give us more of a game mechanic, but it does refer to it as a "strike" (similar to Disarm). Outside of N&S (and maybe Rifts Japan and China), I don't believe any Hand to Hand provides bonuses to Hold. So if we determine Holds work as a normal strike (because I'm reluctant to believe it's intended as natural roll only), then this can be an insight into Disarm. Note: Holds further discuss mechanics for breaking and/or maintaining a Hold, but not how to begin one.

Third paragraph states: "Roll a disarming strike to attack as usual - high roll wins." This one uses the term "disarming strike." This could be a vague combat roll never described, or (as I read it) is basically just telling us to roll to strike as normal. The fact it adds "as usual" to me indicates that this functions like normal, not a special exception.

Disarm (much like Holds, Body Block/Tackle, Kick Attacks, etc.) aren't clearly defined into a mechanic. However, it doesn't actually deal damage. In an evenly matched battle, the Disarming character will probably take a few hits in the process of trying (along with some failures). If the opponent is only powerful due to a single item (which means they weren't very well balanced or thought out), or has been disarmed of several weapons in a row (which most likely means they were already outclassed), then I'm probably okay with the result. Others may have a different opinion, of course. Anyways, hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Removing a rune weapon from a persons hand or taking away a powerfull weapon like those found in storm spire would be times it would be useful. Typically if a person has a powerful melee weapon if he has a back up it will not be as good. It might not be about stoping them from doing damage but stop them from doing as much.

You could also disarm to stop them from shooting at some non-combatant.

You could also disarm as part of an attempt to capture a person alive.


It is a tactical choice to try to get an advantage that might not always be useful.
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Prysus wrote:Disarm (defensive): Natural 19 or 20 only. Bonuses and skill are irrelevant, only luck matters. As far as I can tell the only good reason to use this maneuver is if you need a Nat 19 or 20 to defend anyways. Then it's kind of a "Oh well, no reason NOT to, I guess."

Defense bonuses don't matter for natural 20s (they always win anyway) but they do matter for natural 19s, since presumably you need to tie or exceed the strike. Someone who rolls 19+1 to strike (modified 20) would beat a natural 19 to disarm, but not a natural 19 with a +1.

Parries/Dodges which don't require a natural number could often be more attractive, but there are situations where these rolls are subject to penalties but disarms are not, or situations where disarming is very very valuable and worth only having a maximum of 10% chance of success.

It can be used as ... an attack/strike.

Strikes get strike bonuses except where we're explicitly told otherwise, IMO. Long as the origin makes sense. IE you get the +1 to strike from your W.P. Sword if using a sword to disarm, but not if using a shield.

I understand the conceptual objection to this of course: IRL it's probably harder to disarm someone with a weapon than to simply hit them with it, but stacking disarm/strike will always making striking disarms equal or better than simple hits.
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Re: How Do Disarm Bonuses Work?

Unread post by Vincent Takeda »

Personally I only use the disarm bonus without the PP bonus either as an attack or a defense, but I don't require the 19/20 bit. Easier to pull off as a defensive maneuver since you're beating an attack roll instead of a defense roll, but a still a tougher trick to pull off than simply attacking or defending. That being said, I allow martial arts from ninjas and superspies, where certain styles provide a disarm bonus when others do not. Without ninjas and superspies I can see how handling it with a standard attack roll and pp bonuses would seem a normal way to handle it.
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