Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RCCs?

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Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RCCs?

Unread post by shadrak »

So, most SN beings and Creatures of magic have a templated and number of attacks and bonuses.

These appear to be attack numbers that predate the additional two attacks that RUE and other books introduced.

Source material published since these rules seem to indicate that similar monsters and supernatural creatures have received the increase in the number of attacks, but I don't see a definitive answer on the question.

Do supernatural creatures published pre are you we have their attacks increased by 2? As it stands, supernatural creatures seem to be dramatically underpowered with a single human clad in MDC armor and wielding a current weapon being able to kill two or three lesser Demons by themselves.
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:So, most SN beings and Creatures of magic have a templated and number of attacks and bonuses.

These appear to be attack numbers that predate the additional two attacks that RUE and other books introduced.

Source material published since these rules seem to indicate that similar monsters and supernatural creatures have received the increase in the number of attacks, but I don't see a definitive answer on the question.

Do supernatural creatures published pre are you we have their attacks increased by 2? As it stands, supernatural creatures seem to be dramatically underpowered with a single human clad in MDC armor and wielding a current weapon being able to kill two or three lesser Demons by themselves.


Absolutely nothing official about that, as far as I'm aware.
When (and where) exactly the TAFL was introduced isn't even clear, so it's unknown for certain when and where such modification would be applied.
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:So, most SN beings and Creatures of magic have a templated and number of attacks and bonuses.

These appear to be attack numbers that predate the additional two attacks that RUE and other books introduced.

Source material published since these rules seem to indicate that similar monsters and supernatural creatures have received the increase in the number of attacks, but I don't see a definitive answer on the question.

Do supernatural creatures published pre are you we have their attacks increased by 2? As it stands, supernatural creatures seem to be dramatically underpowered with a single human clad in MDC armor and wielding a current weapon being able to kill two or three lesser Demons by themselves.


Absolutely nothing official about that, as far as I'm aware.
When (and where) exactly the TAFL was introduced isn't even clear, so it's unknown for certain when and where such modification would be applied.


Thanks...

TAFL...is that the Two Attacks...?

It was implied in Heroes Unlimited as far back as 1996 from what I remember, but it was a "players only" bonus to advantage players...and it's been so long ago and I don't have that book anymore so I can't remember exactly where...it would have had to have been in a VERY small section of the original Heroes Unlimited, because my player group overlooked it until a new player pointed it out (he was not happy with his 3 attacks when we had 5)...

Now, it seems starting players hit 4 or 5 right off the bat and high level characters with OCC bonuses hit 9 or 10...

Kinda makes the extra 2 from being a Juicer less worthwhile (a Juicer with 5 vs a normal guy with 3 is impressive...a Juicer with 7 vs a normal guy with 5 is less impressive.)

Thanks for the assistance though...I think the new Demon-Deevil War fixes it for SN creatures from Hades/Dyval, but I am wanting to set up a scenario in Wormwood and, if they players have 7 and 8 attacks per melee and the demons have 4 or 5, the power levels are going to get skewed very quickly, especially considering the underwhelming power of those Demon's weapons and natural abilities.

So, in summary...you haven't seen an official determination for SN/RCC/templated combat stats either? It is primarily the update hand to hand combat skills that add the 2 attacks?
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:So, most SN beings and Creatures of magic have a templated and number of attacks and bonuses.

These appear to be attack numbers that predate the additional two attacks that RUE and other books introduced.

Source material published since these rules seem to indicate that similar monsters and supernatural creatures have received the increase in the number of attacks, but I don't see a definitive answer on the question.

Do supernatural creatures published pre are you we have their attacks increased by 2? As it stands, supernatural creatures seem to be dramatically underpowered with a single human clad in MDC armor and wielding a current weapon being able to kill two or three lesser Demons by themselves.


Absolutely nothing official about that, as far as I'm aware.
When (and where) exactly the TAFL was introduced isn't even clear, so it's unknown for certain when and where such modification would be applied.


Thanks...

TAFL...is that the Two Attacks...?


Sorry, yes, it's forum shorthand for "Two Attacks For Living," which is a term for the bonus two attacks that were introduced into the rules at an unknown time/place after KS decided that 2 attacks per 15 seconds was too slow.
(It can apply to non-living characters as well, so the "for living" isn't entirely correct, of course.)

It was implied in Heroes Unlimited as far back as 1996 from what I remember, but it was a "players only" bonus to advantage players...and it's been so long ago and I don't have that book anymore so I can't remember exactly where...it would have had to have been in a VERY small section of the original Heroes Unlimited, because my player group overlooked it until a new player pointed it out (he was not happy with his 3 attacks when we had 5)...


I recommend not trying to make claims or investigations into which games and when the two extra attacks were or are intended to apply.
Like gazing into the eyes of Cthulu, that way lies madness.

So, in summary...you haven't seen an official determination for SN/RCC/templated combat stats either? It is primarily the update hand to hand combat skills that add the 2 attacks?


It's almost entirely in the HTH skills, and the fact that somewhere Palladium started giving extra attacks to NPCs.
Maryann--one of the sole online representatives of Palladium at that time--claimed that the two attacks had always been there, in a kind of "these are not the droids you're looking for" sort of way, but not only was this obviously untrue, such claims seem to have originated with her, not with the company.

Palladium introduced extra attacks at some time(s) in some way(s), and years later acknowledged that they had done so.
They eventually updated the HTH skills to reflect the change.
That is, as far as I'm aware, the only official acknowledgement that there was a change.
There has never been, to the best of my knowledge, any acknowledgement that this change in the rules would have any kind of repercussions or problems that would in any way need to be resolved, nor any acknowledgment that any kind of conversion would need to be made for the older material to fit the new rules.
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

shadrak wrote:So, most SN beings and Creatures of magic have a templated and number of attacks and bonuses.

These appear to be attack numbers that predate the additional two attacks that RUE and other books introduced.

Source material published since these rules seem to indicate that similar monsters and supernatural creatures have received the increase in the number of attacks, but I don't see a definitive answer on the question.

Do supernatural creatures published pre are you we have their attacks increased by 2? As it stands, supernatural creatures seem to be dramatically underpowered with a single human clad in MDC armor and wielding a current weapon being able to kill two or three lesser Demons by themselves.

IINM, but could be wrong, post-RUE printings of pre-RUE books have received some "stealth" updates that are not mentioned. So all I could say is to check the printing date and respond accordingly, maybe even verify if 2AFL was used in NPCs to gauge if it was a factor. If nothing else the GM can muck about with stats as they see fit.

I will add though that the 2AFL thing is old, I've found references for it in the Rifts Main Book (Black Hardcover) with a 1995 print date on pg 37 in the Psychic Combat Section (off all places). I do not think these where added into NPCs since in SB1o (7th printing in 1998) the NPCs have the same number of attacks per melee as if 2AFL did not exist based on their skills.

I do know that it has existed in other lines (HU2E and PF2E) in a similar form, and older TMNT in a more restricted form (I don't think it was in 1E RT or M2) before they simply added it in by default (as they did in RUE and 2E RT).
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

ShadowLogan wrote:I will add though that the 2AFL thing is old, I've found references for it in the Rifts Main Book (Black Hardcover)


No, you haven't.
You've found a passage that people think meant that, but that didn't.
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by eliakon »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:I will add though that the 2AFL thing is old, I've found references for it in the Rifts Main Book (Black Hardcover)


No, you haven't.
You've found a passage that people think meant that, but that didn't.

Now I'm curious
What is this passage?
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by The Beast »

eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:I will add though that the 2AFL thing is old, I've found references for it in the Rifts Main Book (Black Hardcover)


No, you haven't.
You've found a passage that people think meant that, but that didn't.

Now I'm curious
What is this passage?


If it's the one I think it is, it's in the beginning of the psychic section under Psychic Combat.
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by shadrak »

The Beast wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:I will add though that the 2AFL thing is old, I've found references for it in the Rifts Main Book (Black Hardcover)


No, you haven't.
You've found a passage that people think meant that, but that didn't.

Now I'm curious
What is this passage?


If it's the one I think it is, it's in the beginning of the psychic section under Psychic Combat.



The only thing I remember, prior to RUE, was a note in Heroes Unlimited (that may have been repeated in Rifts) to:

Paraphrasing: "give players an addition so two attacks for being players"...

And that note, as I recall was easy to overlook.

I'm glad they codified it in the H2H skills and NPCs get it too, but now there are NPCs that do not have hand-to-hand combat skills
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

The Beast wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:I will add though that the 2AFL thing is old, I've found references for it in the Rifts Main Book (Black Hardcover)


No, you haven't.
You've found a passage that people think meant that, but that didn't.

Now I'm curious
What is this passage?


If it's the one I think it is, it's in the beginning of the psychic section under Psychic Combat.

@eliakon as mentioned in the post KC quoted from (but cut off) see Rifts Main Book (black hardcover version) pg37 in the Psychic Combat Section.

shadrak wrote:The only thing I remember, prior to RUE, was a note in Heroes Unlimited (that may have been repeated in Rifts) to:

Paraphrasing: "give players an addition so two attacks for being players"...

And that note, as I recall was easy to overlook.

I'm glad they codified it in the H2H skills and NPCs get it too, but now there are NPCs that do not have hand-to-hand combat skills

Yeap it is easy to overlook especially if it gets buried in an odd place (like Psychic Combat).

As for having no hand-hand-skill, everyone essentially starts off with what amounts to HTH: None (which is a free skill) and class/category selection upgrades it. RUE is IINM the first place to list as a HTH skill, prior to that it looked more like a (being generous here) WP bonus outline than a HTH skill and was found in the Physcial Skill Description (nothing existed to really call attention to it like bold text).
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by shadrak »

ShadowLogan wrote:
The Beast wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:I will add though that the 2AFL thing is old, I've found references for it in the Rifts Main Book (Black Hardcover)


No, you haven't.
You've found a passage that people think meant that, but that didn't.

Now I'm curious
What is this passage?


If it's the one I think it is, it's in the beginning of the psychic section under Psychic Combat.

@eliakon as mentioned in the post KC quoted from (but cut off) see Rifts Main Book (black hardcover version) pg37 in the Psychic Combat Section.

shadrak wrote:The only thing I remember, prior to RUE, was a note in Heroes Unlimited (that may have been repeated in Rifts) to:

Paraphrasing: "give players an addition so two attacks for being players"...

And that note, as I recall was easy to overlook.

I'm glad they codified it in the H2H skills and NPCs get it too, but now there are NPCs that do not have hand-to-hand combat skills

Yeap it is easy to overlook especially if it gets buried in an odd place (like Psychic Combat).

As for having no hand-hand-skill, everyone essentially starts off with what amounts to HTH: None (which is a free skill) and class/category selection upgrades it. RUE is IINM the first place to list as a HTH skill, prior to that it looked more like a (being generous here) WP bonus outline than a HTH skill and was found in the Physcial Skill Description (nothing existed to really call attention to it like bold text).



But, originally, it was a skill reserved just for PC's, right?

Because even official Palladium publications were putting out stuff with reduced Number of Attacks on NPCs.
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Nothing indicates that what was essentially HTH: None (or "no combat training" description) is limited to PCs, the wording doesn't use adjective Player or non-player to describe the character.

The Text in RMB pg28 & pg35, HU2E pg55 and 68, PF2E pg45 & 55, Macross II pg22 & 30, 1E Robotech main RPG pg32, and TMNTr pg56 goes "Characters without combat training have " (technically a few don't use this exact phrase, but something just like it). It should be noted that those with 2 listing might conflict in terms of progression (RMB, Mac2) with some giving the impression its static and others with progression.
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by shadrak »

ShadowLogan wrote:Nothing indicates that what was essentially HTH: None (or "no combat training" description) is limited to PCs, the wording doesn't use adjective Player or non-player to describe the character.

The Text in RMB pg28 & pg35, HU2E pg55 and 68, PF2E pg45 & 55, Macross II pg22 & 30, 1E Robotech main RPG pg32, and TMNTr pg56 goes "Characters without combat training have " (technically a few don't use this exact phrase, but something just like it). It should be noted that those with 2 listing might conflict in terms of progression (RMB, Mac2) with some giving the impression its static and others with progression.



Thanks!

I had never noticed that (I never made a player with Hand to Hand: none, only NPCs)...

At the time, the only thing I had ever seen was the one statement I referenced before--something like "Don't forget, these attacks are added to the two that every player automatically gets"

I'll be honest, if I had come across the Hand to Hand: None, I would have intuitively NOT added it to other Hand to Hand skills because I would have thought it would be like adding together Hand to Hand: Basic and Hand to Hand: Expert.
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

viewtopic.php?p=2670321#p2670321
Subject: When did 4 attacks become the norm?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
kaid wrote:I know it was like that in rifts when it first came out


No, it was not.

Here's how I broke it down in a previous post on the subject:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Preacher wrote:The statement that has been quoted several times now is a pretty straight forward and clear statement. All players automatically start with two attacks. How does that not come across clearly to you and why?
Additonal attacks are gained from Hand to Hand skills and boxing. Again how is it you or anyone can say it has not been there since day one in Rifts?

I have first printings of the RMB & Conversion Book and there it is.

HOW do you misintrepret "ALL PLAYERS START WITH 2 ATTACKS?" Main Book first printing 1990. Where is the room for error? All Players? Start? With 2 Attacks?

I honestly do not see how you can misunderstand that? :frust: :frust:


I'll explain.

First of all, the statement itself is likely a mistake. For one thing, it's in the psychic combat section; NOT the normal combat section.
For another, it is directly contradicted on p. 28 under the physical skills section, in the description of hand to hand skills.
"Characters without combat training have one hand to hand attack per melee at levels one and two, but get a second attack at level three and a third attack at level nine."

Also, under the HTH skill descriptions (p. 37), HTH Basic says "Two attacks per melee" at level one. Not "+2 attacks per melee," like it says everywhere else that bonus attacks are described just "Two attacks per melee."

And on the same page, HTH Expert and Martial Arts both say; "Two attacke per melee to start."
I don't see how that's unclear. A first level character with HTH Expert/MA gets Two Attacks Per Melee to start.... NOT two bonus attacks, not +2 attacks, just two attacks per melee to start.
This is clearly describing a base number of attacks.

Furthermore, the writers themselves (Meaning KS) never use the TAFL (Two Attacks For Living) in the Rifts book.

p. 39, under "Determining the Number of Attacks Per Melee and Combat Bonuses"
"This is how it works. Players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high-tech robot or power armor:
1) The pilot's normal, hand to hand combat skill, and 2) The pilot's Robot Combat skill. Simply combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. The total number indicates the total attacks per melee possible."

No mention of any free two attacks for living.
Only two factors; HTH skill, and Robot Combat skill.

Furthermore, "Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of four attacks per melee."
That's 4 attacks; two from HTH skill, and two from Robot/PA combat skill.
NOT 6 attacks, which is what would be common if KS was using the TAFL.

p. 40 (discussing characters with Pilot: Robots & Power Armor skill, but no Robot Combat skill)
"A first level character will usuall have two attacks per melee."
"If a pilot does not have hand to hand combat training, he or she is limited to one attack per melee and NO special bonuses."

p. 40
"For Example: A character piloting a Coalition Urban Assault bot (Enforcer UAR-1) has five attacks per melee."
Why 5?
If KS was using TAFL, then he'd have at least 6 attacks; 2 for living, 2 from HTH, and 2 from Robot Combat.

p. 42-44
"An Example of Combat"
Portrays a battle between a UAR-1 and some bandits.
The UAR-1 has 5 attacks. The rebel SAMAS pilot only has 4.
If KS was using TAFL, then the UAR-1 would have 6+ attacks, and so would the SAMAS (unless he had no robot combat skill, in which case he'd only have 1-2 attacks according to the rules cited above).

p. 249
Animalistic supernatural predators have 1d4 attacks per melee.
This makes sense if the average is assumed to be 2-3 attacks per melee... the animals might be a bit slower or a bit faster than the normal human. At worst, they'd be just as slow as an untrained human (1 attack).
It does NOT make sense if the average number of attacks for a human is 4-5... that would mean that even an untrained human would be twice as fast as 25% of the supernatural predators, and that the fastest supernatural predators would only be as fast as a normal 1st level human with HTH: Basic.

p. 251
Intelligent Supernatural Monsters also get only 1d4 attacks per melee.
So ditto all the above for predators, only more-so.

p. 256
A Typical Coalition Grunt is first level, has HTH: Expert, and has 2 attacks per melee.
A Typical Coalition SAMAS has HTH Expet + Elite Power Armor Combat for a total of 4 attacks per melee.
A Typical High-Tech Bandit has HTH: Expert and 2 attacks per melee.

So if you have any explanation for how KS meant to include the TAFL in the main book, but neglected to ever use it or mention it outside of that one passage under psychic combat, and somehow neglected to edit out all the rules contradicting the TAFL... let's hear it!

Personally, I don't think he's that incompetent.
I can buy him making a single mistake in the psychic combat section more easily than I can buy him making 8+ mistakes spread out all through the book.


The statements in the RMB that are along the lines of "all player characters start with two attacks" are based on an assumption that all PCs are going to have HTH combat skills, and that their HTH combat skill is NOT going to be Assassin (as Assassin is reserved for Evil characters, and there is an assumption that PCs won't be Evil).
The references to gaining attacks from HTH combat skills are referring to the fact that characters with HTH skills gained attacks as they leveled up, NOT to stacking the base attacks from the forms to a mythical 2 attacks that "everybody" always gets.

Now, some people usually pop up to claim that the TAFL was intended for PCs only, and that's why NPCs don't have them.
But that still skips over the references to the average PC having only 2 attacks at first level (or 4 attacks if they're robot pilots), and it ignores the sentence from Rifts, p. 37
(Right after the mention that all PCs get two attacks to start):
"A typical non-player character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions."
That's the same description of attacks as when it describes PCs.
NPCs and PCs work the same way when it comes to determining attacks per melee.


Here's another recounting that I did.
There's some overlap with the other recounting, but there's some additional references as well:
Vrykolas2k wrote:Two attacks for living are in the core rules...


1. No, they weren't.
2. If they were, then please enlighten me on the following things:
p. 35:
"Characters without combat training have only one attack per melee and have no automatic parry."

p. 37 Under Hand to Hand: Expert and Martial Arts
"Level 1 Two attacks per melee to start"
Under HTH: Assassin
"one attack per melee"
Any time a character gets bonus attacks, they are listed as "+1 Attack(s)." Never as just "x attacks per melee" and definitely not "x attacks to start."

p. 39 under "Determinign the Number of Attacks per Melee and Combat Bonuses"
"Players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high-tech robot or power armor: 1) The pilot's normal, hand to hand comabt skill, and 2) The pilot's Robot Combat skill. Simply combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. the total number indicates the total attacks per melee possible. Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of FOUR attacks per melee."

p. 40
"For Example: A character piloting a Coalition Urban Assault bot (Enforcer UAR-1) has five attacks per melee."
This can make sense if the pilot has 2 attacks from his HTH skill, one attack from boxing, and two from his Robot Combat skill.

Also on p. 40 (emphasis added):
"For example: A Coalition Urban Assault Bot is up against four bandit robots. The pilot decides to launch four of his missiles at one enemy. That's one attack, leaving three more that melee. He can not fire the four missiles simultaneously at all four of the enemy. To strike all four, the pilot must fire at each individual target seperately. However, this will take up all four of the pilot's attacks that melee."
Again, this only makes sense if he has 2 attacks from HTH and 2 attacks from Robot Combat.
No 2 attacks for living.

p. 42-44 "An Example of Combat"
The SAMAS pilots only have 4 attacks each, and the UAR-1 Enforcer pilot only has 5 attacks each. Again, no Two Attacks For Living (TAFL, for short).

p. 194 SAMAS armor.
The C-40R has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS SAMAS Pilot would be 6.

p. 196 The UAR-1 Enforcer
The C-50R rail gun has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Enforcer Pilot would be 6.

p. 198 The Spider-Skull Walker
The C-100R rail guns has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Skull-Walker Pilot would be 6.

The CR-4T Laser Turrets have an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Skull-Walker Pilot would be 6.

p. 223 The Glitter Boy
The Boom Gun has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a Glitter Boyr Pilot would be 6.

p. 249
A randomly rolled Animalistic Predator only has 1d4 attacks.
If the PCs have the TAFL, then this means that the very fastest of these wupernatural predators will be only as fast as a low-end level 1 character.

P. 251
The Intelligent Supernatural Monsters have the same number of attacks; 1d4.

p. 256
-The Typical CS Grunt has HTH Expert and only 2 attacks per melee. No TAFL.
-The Typical CS SAMAS has HTH Expert + Elite Power Armor Combat training for a total of 4 attacks per melee.
No TAFL.
-All listed dinosaurs have 2 attacks per melee. If PCs had TAFL, then a first level scholar with HTH basic would be twice as fast as any dinosaur.
-A Typical High Tech Bandit or Headhunter has HTH: Expert and has 2 attacks per melee.
No TAFL.


Edit:
And here's ANOTHER old post where I address the issue:
Killer Cyborg wrote:When I went to Gen-Con and talked to Kevin Siembieda, I asked him about it.
He said that they were an addition to the rules, made after the first few books were released. He's a boxing fan, and he noticed that people can get of a LOT more than 2 attacks per 15 seconds of melee. So he changed the rules.

I ran the idea by him that PCs got more attacks than NPCs, and he said No.

After I got home from Gen-Con, I looked through the copy of CB1 Revised that I bought there. Guess what I found...

CB1R, p. 12-13
"Characters with no hand to hand combat traingin get one attack/action per melee round at levels 1, 6, and 12...."
"Note: It is rare for most characters not to have at least the Hand to Hand: Basic combat skill, but civilian NPCs like a child, high school student, housewife, white collar worker, or game designer, are probably only going to have one or two attacks per round..."

Which explains a bit of the reasoning going on in assuming that all PCs get 2 attacks per melee. It is assuming that they're going to have at least HTH Basic (and apparently forgets HTH Assassin, or assumes that PCs are going to be Good aligned).

More importantly, and I apparantly cannot emphasize this enough:
"Characters with any kind of formal hand to hand combat training (HTH Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc. automatically starts with two attacks per melee, in addition to those provided from their actual hand to hand combat skill. That means a first level character typically starts with FOUR attacks per melee round- two to begin and two from a specific Hand to Hand skill. Game Designer Note: This was not originally the case when I first designed the game system. Back then the character only got the number of attacks provided by the Hand to Hand skill (2), plus those gained from experience in that skill and any possible O.C.C. bonus. A lot of people seem to prefer fewer attacks per round tha more. That's okay. If that's what you like, start with only two from Hand to Hand skills and forget about the other two. Role-Playing is flexible, go with what you, as GM, feel most comfortable with. I only increased the starting number (four instead of two) because it seemed more realistic for characters who are trained in combat (including adventurers who need to know how to handle themselves in the wild)."

So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote: So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.


Which, unfortunately, doesn't give me an official what to do with all of those monsters that now move 25-50% slower than the average human and do 25% less damage than that same human wielding a Wilk's Laser sword ;)

It would be nice if they came out with a rule that said all preset monsters get 1 add'l attack at levels 3, 6, 9 and 12 unless otherwise noted...

Or, better yet, publish a revised compilation of all monsters, RCCs, and OCCs that have not been updated...

Oh...and since I am in fairytaleland, a complete listing of every skill available in the Rifts section of the Palladium Megaverse.
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote: So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.


Which, unfortunately, doesn't give me an official what to do with all of those monsters that now move 25-50% slower than the average human and do 25% less damage than that same human wielding a Wilk's Laser sword ;)


Officially, you just play it as it lies.
The TAFL screwed up a LOT of stuff:
Animals
Robots
Mages (due to casting speed. This has been helped some as of RUE, but it's still weird.)
The RMB Supernatural Predators and Such.
Crazies (used to be roughly 50% faster than other level 1 characters, and are now only 25% faster)
Juicers and Power Armor/Robot Pilots (used to be roughly 2x faster than other level 1 characters, and now are only 50% faster)
Any weapon weapon that has a set number of blasts per melee round.
And so on, and so forth.

It changed the balance of the entire game, and apparently Palladium doesn't notice and doesn't care.
So yeah, a bunch of people and things got shafted.
Yeah, the balance got shifted.
KS would probably shrug it off with "Rifts isn't supposed to be balanced," and just play with the new balance.

Basically the same attitude as with the -10 rule, scrapping the burst/spray rules, the GI-Joe rule, general power creep, and undoubtedly other changes that have been made to the game.
We only really have two options: houserule things to try to get the original balance (or feel of it) back, OR just adapt to the fact that Rifts isn't the game it used to be. Some things that used to be feared are now less deadly, sometimes laughably so.
C'est ley lines.

It would be nice if they came out with a rule that said all preset monsters get 1 add'l attack at levels 3, 6, 9 and 12 unless otherwise noted...

Or, better yet, publish a revised compilation of all monsters, RCCs, and OCCs that have not been updated...

Oh...and since I am in fairytaleland, a complete listing of every skill available in the Rifts section of the Palladium Megaverse.


Yup.
:ok:
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shadrak
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Re: Is there a ruling on increasing # of attks for preset RC

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote: So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.


Which, unfortunately, doesn't give me an official what to do with all of those monsters that now move 25-50% slower than the average human and do 25% less damage than that same human wielding a Wilk's Laser sword ;)


Officially, you just play it as it lies.
The TAFL screwed up a LOT of stuff:
Animals
Robots
Mages (due to casting speed. This has been helped some as of RUE, but it's still weird.)
The RMB Supernatural Predators and Such.
Crazies (used to be roughly 50% faster than other level 1 characters, and are now only 25% faster)
Juicers and Power Armor/Robot Pilots (used to be roughly 2x faster than other level 1 characters, and now are only 50% faster)
Any weapon weapon that has a set number of blasts per melee round.
And so on, and so forth.

It changed the balance of the entire game, and apparently Palladium doesn't notice and doesn't care.
So yeah, a bunch of people and things got shafted.
Yeah, the balance got shifted.
KS would probably shrug it off with "Rifts isn't supposed to be balanced," and just play with the new balance.

Basically the same attitude as with the -10 rule, scrapping the burst/spray rules, the GI-Joe rule, general power creep, and undoubtedly other changes that have been made to the game.
We only really have two options: houserule things to try to get the original balance (or feel of it) back, OR just adapt to the fact that Rifts isn't the game it used to be. Some things that used to be feared are now less deadly, sometimes laughably so.
C'est ley lines.

It would be nice if they came out with a rule that said all preset monsters get 1 add'l attack at levels 3, 6, 9 and 12 unless otherwise noted...

Or, better yet, publish a revised compilation of all monsters, RCCs, and OCCs that have not been updated...

Oh...and since I am in fairytaleland, a complete listing of every skill available in the Rifts section of the Palladium Megaverse.


Yup.
:ok:


Yep....

One thing, though, burst/spray rule seems to be scrapped some of the time. Several post RUE reprint of weapons still appear to reference it...probably more an oversight than an intention to re-introduce it into the game...

And thus necessitating a house rule.
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