Strength above 30.

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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by eliakon »

shadrak wrote:Let me get that for you...since you must have started playing after RUE and probably don't buy Rifter (and yes, while Rifter features "optional material", some articles are official and this one comes from the official FAQ from Rodney Scott at Palladium Books as in - at the time - canon and official:)

Actually I started playing Palladium before Rifts was even a thing.
And I have a subscription to the Rifter as well

shadrak wrote:Do I add my P.S. damage bonus to M.D. melee weapon attacks? Do I add my P.S. damage bonus if I have supernatural strength?

The PS damage bonus is ALWAYS and SDC damage bonus and is not added to MD melee weapon attacks [emphasis mine].

HOWEVER [emphasis mine] if the character possesses SUPERNATURAL STRENGTH OR ROBOTIC STRENGTH, the normal punch damage, if MD, cn be added to the damage inflicted with a mega-damage melee weapon. Again, PS damage bonuses [my note, as in the extended scale +1 damage for points above 30 and 15 points at 30] do not apply to this.

For example, if you could do a 3D6 MD punch and were using a weapon that did 1D6 MD, you would inflict 4D6 MD.

Awesome, there we go
In RMB era it was added and in RUE it is no longer added
I did not think to double check the FAQ from an eighteen year old rifter... my bad

THAT said... where is this article listed as being official?
I know that some of the Q&A had that, but I dont see it on the list of things that have been ruled official...
And yes, just because it is a Q&A doesnt make it offiicial.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Well, then, if it is not official, then the FAQs are not official...
It held the same status as the FAQs...

And, as I pointed out earlier, the FAQs are pretty bad a maintaining consistency, so you won't have an argument with me on that.

The problem is that if you use an RUE rule that goes back isn't clear with its intent, then you are going to have to check EVERY weapon's special characteristics (sometimes not even in the statistics, but in the flavor text instead) to determine if it allows for the use of an MD PS attack...

However, and I am surprised you didn't use this as your own evidence, the revised conversion book 1 is the origin of the RUE language...

It describes Vibroblades as it gives examples of MD attacks.

Which goes to show that Palladium has truly messed up these rules and probably needs to come out with a rule that either states DEFINITIVELY...once and for all...

That all MDC weapons either add or do not add SN Strength to the overall damage...

Because we now have recent content for Madhaven and Xiticix as well as Juicers and Triax and, possibly, Wormwood, that contain direct contradiction to the Revised Conversion Book 1 rule (which DOES specify the rule per your interpretation) and the your interpretation of the RUE rule.


And, just for the fun of it, here is the RUE page 284 rule in the 2002 Game Master's Guide (1 year before Revised Conversion Book 1 and 3 years before RUE - PS: It also contains answers similar to RIFTER #11 if you don't trust that the Palladium employees that write the FAQ are official):

Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, supernatural beings inflict
either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus or their basic hand to hand damage (see previous table) plus P.S. damage bonus,
whichever is greater.


Note the difference in the language...

As for me, I am not going to keep track of what Bionic Body Part (example, teeth) have a Damage plus Robotic PS damage and what bionic body parts do not have a damage plus robotic PS damage...

And I am not going to differentiate between a piece of armor or equipment that is made by Triax or Northern Gun in WB 5 or 10 or by the Xicitix or Madhaven Mutants in WB 23 or 29..

Or whatever other discrepancy that arises that directly contradicts your interpretation of page 284...

That is:
1-Too much to track
2-Non-rational rule
3-That is inconsistently applied and has continued to be inconsistently applied (assuming you are correct in your interpretation) in canon material since the publication of RUE.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:Well, then, if it is not official, then the FAQs are not official...
It held the same status as the FAQs...


"The same status as the FAQs" is "just some guy's opinion, unless an official source is cited."
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:Well, then, if it is not official, then the FAQs are not official...
It held the same status as the FAQs...


"The same status as the FAQs" is "just some guy's opinion, unless an official source is cited."



And where is that statement sourced? LOL

The FAQs contradict themselves repeatedly...

I would say that fits pretty well with current canon!
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

shadrak wrote:And I would refer you to page 294 of your oh-so-holy RUE...

Read it well...there is a sentence that reference you ;)

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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:Well, then, if it is not official, then the FAQs are not official...
It held the same status as the FAQs...


"The same status as the FAQs" is "just some guy's opinion, unless an official source is cited."



And where is that statement sourced? LOL


Because it's a fan FAQ.

"This is a new version of the FanFaq. What it does is take the FanFaq and cut them down to just the questions and answers."

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/index.html
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Mack »

shadrak wrote:
shadrak wrote:And I would refer you to page 294 of your oh-so-holy RUE...

Read it well...there is a sentence that reference you ;)

Warning: If you can't discuss the subject without attacking others then don't post. Mack



I get you, Mack! I got to be more subtle like they are so you don't see it! Point taken! I will do well to learn from them and get my digs in a more passive-aggressive manner. ;)

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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:Well, then, if it is not official, then the FAQs are not official...
It held the same status as the FAQs...


"The same status as the FAQs" is "just some guy's opinion, unless an official source is cited."



And where is that statement sourced? LOL


Because it's a fan FAQ.

"This is a new version of the FanFaq. What it does is take the FanFaq and cut them down to just the questions and answers."

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/index.html


The FAQ written on palladium-books.com is a fan FAQ?
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:Well, then, if it is not official, then the FAQs are not official...
It held the same status as the FAQs...


"The same status as the FAQs" is "just some guy's opinion, unless an official source is cited."



And where is that statement sourced? LOL


Because it's a fan FAQ.

"This is a new version of the FanFaq. What it does is take the FanFaq and cut them down to just the questions and answers."

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/index.html


The FAQ written on palladium-books.com is a fan FAQ?


The FAQ created on the Palladium Mailing List back in the day--run by fans--and eventually transplanted onto Palladium-Books.com, is a FanFaq.
That's what's known as "The Old FAQ."

The NEW FAQ is created here on the forums, when fans ask questions that are answered by fans, and then basically voted on, then put into the New FAQ.

So depending on which official Palladium.com FAQ you're talking about, the answer is either "yes" or "still yes."
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
"The same status as the FAQs" is "just some guy's opinion, unless an official source is cited."



And where is that statement sourced? LOL


Because it's a fan FAQ.

"This is a new version of the FanFaq. What it does is take the FanFaq and cut them down to just the questions and answers."

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/index.html


The FAQ written on palladium-books.com is a fan FAQ?


The FAQ created on the Palladium Mailing List back in the day--run by fans--and eventually transplanted onto Palladium-Books.com, is a FanFaq.
That's what's known as "The Old FAQ."

The NEW FAQ is created here on the forums, when fans ask questions that are answered by fans, and then basically voted on, then put into the New FAQ.

So depending on which official Palladium.com FAQ you're talking about, the answer is either "yes" or "still yes."


Thank you!

Did any developers confirm this?

Also, why does the company continue to host the old FAQ? It adds a lot of confusion especially if "FAN FAQ" (determined by consensus) becomes canon but employee answers do not.

Heck, why do they continue to host the old FAQ when it has contradictions between webpages and sometimes in an individual page?

I think a lot of players assume that the FAQ is updated (it clearly is not when you start digging into it) and that it is canon.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:Thank you!

Did any developers confirm this?


Confirm what?
Follow the links, and you can trace the FAQ back to its origin.

Also, why does the company continue to host the old FAQ?


For the same reasons why they put it up in the first place.

It adds a lot of confusion especially if "FAN FAQ" (determined by consensus) becomes canon but employee answers do not.


None of it becomes canon.
It's just official.
Only what is in the books is canon.

Heck, why do they continue to host the old FAQ when it has contradictions between webpages and sometimes in an individual page?


Palladium is less concerned with contradictions than one might initially think.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Mack »

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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »




Then the FAQ is worthless because it causes more problems then it solves when there is a dispute about gameplay.

"Official"

"Canonical"

SMH, that kind of differentiation reflects poorly on a game company...

So, what does Official mean?

And I guess that means the Rifter 11 Questions and Answers are "Official" but not canonical...

SMH...why even have an "official" classification then if the "official" is completely optional?

Just stop calling it "official source material" and just call it "optional source material that wasn't important enough to put in the book so it really doesn't matter unless you want to use it as fluff."
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

In summary, the difference between "official" and "optional" source material is whether or not the writer was compensated.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:In summary, the difference between "official" and "optional" source material is whether or not the writer was compensated.


Au contraire!
I have known at least one writer whose Palladium book was officially published and canonical, but who hadn't been paid for their work for a period of at least several years. For all I know, they still haven't been paid.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by eliakon »

shadrak wrote:In summary, the difference between "official" and "optional" source material is whether or not the writer was compensated.

Actually the status is if the material was deemed official by the IP holder (in this case Palladium books via Kevin Sembida) or not.
That is what the word "Canon" means
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

eliakon wrote:
shadrak wrote:In summary, the difference between "official" and "optional" source material is whether or not the writer was compensated.

Actually the status is if the material was deemed official by the IP holder (in this case Palladium books via Kevin Sembida) or not.
That is what the word "Canon" means


So are you saying:

1. Killer Cyborg and Mack don't know what they are talking about or
2. That they are lying?

Killer Cyborg just said that official does not mean canon...Mack's link from 2000 agrees...

I am inclined to believe them unless you can show that they are ignorant or lying.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:In summary, the difference between "official" and "optional" source material is whether or not the writer was compensated.


Au contraire!
I have known at least one writer whose Palladium book was officially published and canonical, but who hadn't been paid for their work for a period of at least several years. For all I know, they still haven't been paid.



That sucks for them!

I guess I should have said "work produced under contract/freelance"
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:In summary, the difference between "official" and "optional" source material is whether or not the writer was compensated.


Au contraire!
I have known at least one writer whose Palladium book was officially published and canonical, but who hadn't been paid for their work for a period of at least several years. For all I know, they still haven't been paid.



That sucks for them!

I guess I should have said "work produced under contract/freelance"


Regardless, there are optional rules in the canon books that IS official, presumably written by somebody who was paid or was supposed to be paid.
Not sure how that fits into your theory.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:In summary, the difference between "official" and "optional" source material is whether or not the writer was compensated.


Au contraire!
I have known at least one writer whose Palladium book was officially published and canonical, but who hadn't been paid for their work for a period of at least several years. For all I know, they still haven't been paid.



That sucks for them!

I guess I should have said "work produced under contract/freelance"


Regardless, there are optional rules in the canon books that IS official, presumably written by somebody who was paid or was supposed to be paid.
Not sure how that fits into your theory.


Well, I made the distinguishing factor as essentially being in a Rifts book or being in Rifter...Rifter and FAQ unpaid, Rifts books paid.

If it is a Rifts book (i.e.-paid work) - Canonical

If outside of a Rifts book (Rifter, FAQ, etc.) - At best "Official" (sanctioned by Palladium, but Palladium reserves the right to ignore as "non-canonical") or "Optional" (when Palladium is really just trying to fill pages or thinks that an article is interesting but the writer does not have a strong relationship with Palladium)...

What I don't understand is why differentiate between "Canonical" and "Official" when Palladium can, and has, RETCONNED stuff in the past?

Why not just make Official the same as Canonical and, if it doesn't work out later, make the rules change and say it is no longer canonical?
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

By the way, what thread is the "NEW" FAQ in?
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:What I don't understand is why differentiate between "Canonical" and "Official" when Palladium can, and has, RETCONNED stuff in the past?

Why not just make Official the same as Canonical and, if it doesn't work out later, make the rules change and say it is no longer canonical?


Because "canonical' and "official" don't mean the same thing.
They're two different words, with different functions that only sometimes overlap.

Palladium, for example, has various official merchandise like bumper stickers and t-shirts.
This merchandise is NOT canonical, and couldn't really be, since it's not a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged. It's not any kind of law or rule: it's just merchandise.
Saying that a "Got P.P.E.?" bumper sticker is official is both true and makes sense.
Saying that a "Got P.P.E.?" bumpers sticker is canonical is nonsense.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:What I don't understand is why differentiate between "Canonical" and "Official" when Palladium can, and has, RETCONNED stuff in the past?

Why not just make Official the same as Canonical and, if it doesn't work out later, make the rules change and say it is no longer canonical?


Because "canonical' and "official" don't mean the same thing.
They're two different words, with different functions that only sometimes overlap.

Palladium, for example, has various official merchandise like bumper stickers and t-shirts.
This merchandise is NOT canonical, and couldn't really be, since it's not a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged. It's not any kind of law or rule: it's just merchandise.
Saying that a "Got P.P.E.?" bumper sticker is official is both true and makes sense.
Saying that a "Got P.P.E.?" bumpers sticker is canonical is nonsense.


So, what you are saying is that, regardless of whether a published item is deemed official or not by Palladium, that doesn't necessarily make it canonical.

I read you!

And, based on your previous commentary and what Mack provided, some "official" source material that can be used in Rifts is not necessarily "canon".

I gotta say, where it DOES overlap, it would be nice if it were the same, but I understand what you are saying about it not being the same.
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Re: Strength above 30.

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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

I totally like the link title, but I am getting a bad webpage when I click on the hyperlink
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Re: Strength above 30.

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Weird, it worked the first time I previewed it.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Khanibal »

I wonder if a discussion of M.A. above 30 would elicit such vituperation.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Khanibal wrote:I wonder if a discussion of M.A. above 30 would elicit such vituperation.



HAHAHA!!!
The stat that is meaningless for most adventures!!!

If you want some adventures where it plays a role, I have a few...mostly negotiation-type where you have to roll against MA a lot if you don't have a negotiation skill.

Also for intimidating and bluffing gang members...

I have an adventure right now that I am working on with this.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by eliakon »

shadrak wrote:
eliakon wrote:
shadrak wrote:In summary, the difference between "official" and "optional" source material is whether or not the writer was compensated.

Actually the status is if the material was deemed official by the IP holder (in this case Palladium books via Kevin Sembida) or not.
That is what the word "Canon" means


So are you saying:

1. Killer Cyborg and Mack don't know what they are talking about or
2. That they are lying?

Killer Cyborg just said that official does not mean canon...Mack's link from 2000 agrees...

I am inclined to believe them unless you can show that they are ignorant or lying.

No difference
The material in question was NOT official
It is not canon
The FAQ is not official, thus it is not Canon.
That's sort of what it all means
Unless Palladium says something is canon... its not
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

eliakon wrote:
shadrak wrote:
eliakon wrote:
shadrak wrote:In summary, the difference between "official" and "optional" source material is whether or not the writer was compensated.

Actually the status is if the material was deemed official by the IP holder (in this case Palladium books via Kevin Sembida) or not.
That is what the word "Canon" means


So are you saying:

1. Killer Cyborg and Mack don't know what they are talking about or
2. That they are lying?

Killer Cyborg just said that official does not mean canon...Mack's link from 2000 agrees...

I am inclined to believe them unless you can show that they are ignorant or lying.

No difference
The material in question was NOT official
It is not canon
The FAQ is not official, thus it is not Canon.
That's sort of what it all means
Unless Palladium says something is canon... its not


So what in Rifter is canon?

What are the "magic" canon words?

"This is canon"? "This is official" "Official Rifts/Splicers material"?
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Mack »

I disagree with KC a bit. If it’s labeled Official, then it’s canon.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Mack wrote:I disagree with KC a bit. If it’s labeled Official, then it’s canon.


Well, KC says canon and official are not the same, eliakon says that Palladium must clearly specify that something is canon for it to be canon...

So:

1. What canon source defines what 'canon' means?

2. Since most questions of canonicity are directed towards rules and gamesystems rather than histories and game environment, is "optional" source material canon? What if it is both "official" and "optional"?
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

shadrak wrote:
Mack wrote:I disagree with KC a bit. If it’s labeled Official, then it’s canon.


Well, KC says canon and official are not the same, eliakon says that Palladium must clearly specify that something is canon for it to be canon...

So:

1. What canon source defines what 'canon' means?

2. Since most questions of canonicity are directed towards rules and gamesystems rather than histories and game environment, is "optional" source material canon? What if it is both "official" and "optional"?



I write that for this reason...

RUE contains "Optional Rules"...RUE is generally considered a "Canon" document. Those "optional rules" are certainly "official"....

So, are those optional rules canonical?

By extension, if those optional rules, published in an official Palladium publication, are canon, then what about the optional rules that are published in other official Palladium publications...

Your definition, KC's definition, and Eliakon's definition of "canon" are not the same...

And Eliakon (and I think KC) demand that answers to questions be canonical or they are invalid...

With a discrepancy with regard to what is and what is not canon.

One demand is that source material, in order to be canon, must come from K.S. (all glory and honor due unto him most high) or from someone he has sanctioned to provide guidance.

With regard to Rifter 11, the answers published in that document are from "WE here at Palladium Books"...and we know, based on KS commentary on his timelines and why Rifter is late, KS reviews all articles in Rifter... RESPONDEAT SUPERIOR

And Qui facit per alium, est perinde ac si facit per se ipsum

Palladium employees, acting under the review of the most holy himself, take and make actions that can be attributed to the most holy.

So that particular article meets Eliakon's defined criteria...unless he requires an official statement from KS on EVERYTHING KS reviews and signs off on by his direct and indirect employees to be canonical.

If so, then there are a lot of compiled works that contain "canonical" material that do not have the specific endorsement of KS and, in fact, have a "DIS-ENDORSEMENT" (for example, South America).


So, what is canon? And why do KC, Eliakon, and Mack disagree as to what it is?
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:
Mack wrote:I disagree with KC a bit. If it’s labeled Official, then it’s canon.


Well, KC says canon and official are not the same, eliakon says that Palladium must clearly specify that something is canon for it to be canon...

So:

1. What canon source defines what 'canon' means?


https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... 9730570060
1A. general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.]

If it's not a general law, rule, principle, or criterion, then it cannot by definition be "canon."
So bumper-stickers, t-shirts, and other merchandise are not canon.

2. Since most questions of canonicity are directed towards rules and gamesystems rather than histories and game environment, is "optional" source material canon? What if it is both "official" and "optional"?


Canon also applies to histories and game environment.
For example, the existence of the Coalition and of Chi-Town is canon: in the context of the setting description and setting history, the rule/law/principle is that the Coalition exists, that they rule Chi-Town, and so forth.
Likewise, Erin Tarn's trip to Wormwood is canon, as are other "this thing happened" kinds of events.

Optional source material can be official and/or canonical.
For example, there are Optional rules that are printed in official Rifts books such as RUE. These rules are Officially Optional and Canonically Optional, which means that they are both by Company approval and by rule, Optional.
This can lead to some misunderstandings and some poor phrasing, in that "official" and "canon" are often used with the connotation of being The Only Official Way, whereas in this case they are merely One Official Way.

Then there's stuff like Rifter Articles that are Officially Optional in that they have the Palladium stamp of approval in the context of being a Rifter article which players and GMs are free to use, but that are NOT going to affect the setting, be referred to in any of the books as being factual, or so forth.
Such articles are technically Official because they carry the Palladium stamp of approval, but they are NOT canonical because they are not a necessary component of the setting or rules--they are NOT criterion by which the game or setting itself can be judged.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Prysus »

shadrak wrote:And Eliakon (and I think KC) demand that answers to questions be canonical or they are invalid...

Greetings and Salutations. While I won't speak for them, from what I've seen you're confusing: "Believe only canon answers are valid in a discussion of the canon rules" with what you said. In general, I'm of the mindset that when providing house rules, they should be noted to avoid confusion (unless the OP is specifically asking for house rules). This helps avoid confusion. Even if you know your rules aren't official, someone reading them might think you're stating Rules As Written (RAW). This creates conflict, and much of what we're running into now.

So when someone asks a rules question, it often helps to start with a common ground, which is the RAW or clarify intent (such as listing that it's a house rule). Most of us have no issues with house rules. In fact, I'd say most of us agree that the game will not function smoothly without house rules.

shadrak wrote:With a discrepancy with regard to what is and what is not canon.

Actually, I'll agree with this. You'll see it used often on these boards, but many use it differently from others often causing confusion. For example ...

Killer Cyborg provided this definition earlier: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/canon

He referenced the first definition (1A). I've seen others use definition 2: "A collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine" with the argument that it must be in a printed book to be canon (so an official answer online is null and void to that person).

Others tend to use it as another word for Official (such as): https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Canon

I'm sure there are more versions. There's various definitions as well as common usage that's not the actual definition but still commonly used. As a result, I actually try to avoid using the word at this point, because too many people use it to mean different things.

shadrak wrote:One demand is that source material, in order to be canon, must come from K.S. (all glory and honor due unto him most high) or from someone he has sanctioned to provide guidance.

First, being snarky to everyone doesn't encourage others to want to help.

Second, in general, main rules books, world books, sourcebooks, dimensions books, and the like tend to be considered official/canon (whether or not Kevin's name is on the front cover or not). Rifters are a bit of an odd ball. The articles within them are fan content. Fan fiction, in general, is not considered official or canon almost anywhere you go. This line gets blurred a bit more since this fan fiction is published in a Palladium product. To complicate matters more, some of the articles are written by staff and/or freelancers. However, since you mentioned having Rifter #11, I'll quote a section of that one for you (and you'll find the same quote, or very similar, in every Rifter that I can recall).

Page 5 wrote:"Optional and Unofficial Rules & Source Material"

This section then goes on to state how it is "not 'official' to the main games or world settings."

This tells us the default status of the Rifter, until told otherwise. Rifter #50 is a great example of a contrary, where most of the articles are "Official." This is generally listed in the Table of Contents, as well as the article itself.

The Q&A articles are a bit of a confusion though, and some people will go one way or the other on the matter. Most were written by Rodney Stott and Shawn Merrow. I believe at the time, they were interns. While I may respect them, I'm not sure how much weight I'd give to the opinion of an intern compared to actual staff members. If I had a legal question and walked into a law office, I wouldn't feel nearly as confident getting my legal advice from an intern as I would to an actual lawyer.

Later Q&A articles start mentioning they also had some input from Kevin, and/or his name showing up in the credits for the article. However, we're not given any clear indication of how much input he had on those or to which questions. However, instead of focusing on that aspect, I'll continue to focus on Rifter #11 for now.

Rifter #11, page 48 wrote:"We at Palladium Books receive a lot of questions about various books over the internet, and as a result we maintain a massive list of answers on our website, but if you do not have access to the net, getting answer can be a bit of a problem. That is why we have decided to do this column. We cannot present all our archives at one time, but we can bring you a selection of answers.
[snip]
... and will cover not only single games, but draw answers from all of Palladium's games.

So they start off identifying as Palladium Books (looking good for official), but then goes to tell us that this is from their archives on the internet (which has been addressed above as unofficial). Beyond that, we are told that it "draws answers from all of Palladium's games." This complicates the matter even more, because despite Palladium's Megaversal system, rules tend to change between the settings. Interestingly enough, whether or not Supernatural P.S. damage is added to Weapon damage is one of those that changes. For example, in Nightbane and HU2 (or, at the very least, the major super power Supernatural Strength from HU2) combines punch damage and weapon damage. PF2 and RUE are one or the other (whichever is greater).

Furthermore, in Best of the Rifter (which covers Rifters #1 through #32), there is a Rifter Index in the back of the book. One of the ways they index articles is by listing "Official" articles. The Rifter Q&A articles (such as the one from Rifter #11) are not on that list.

Hopefully some of that will help. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by eliakon »

For myself I don't require an answer to be canon...
...unless the person is claiming the answer is, in fact, canon.
Thus saying "I think" or "I believe" or "in my game" or "it would seem" or the like... go ahead and interpret the best you can.
BUT
If you say "The rule is" or "That is incorrect" or "the official ruling is" or anything of that nature... then you need to show your work and demonstrate where you got the rule and why that rule is the actual rule.

[i]My[i] problem is when people pass of their head canon off as actual canon.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Prysus wrote:
shadrak wrote:And Eliakon (and I think KC) demand that answers to questions be canonical or they are invalid...

Greetings and Salutations. While I won't speak for them, from what I've seen you're confusing: "Believe only canon answers are valid in a discussion of the canon rules" with what you said. In general, I'm of the mindset that when providing house rules, they should be noted to avoid confusion (unless the OP is specifically asking for house rules). This helps avoid confusion. Even if you know your rules aren't official, someone reading them might think you're stating Rules As Written (RAW). This creates conflict, and much of what we're running into now.

So when someone asks a rules question, it often helps to start with a common ground, which is the RAW or clarify intent (such as listing that it's a house rule). Most of us have no issues with house rules. In fact, I'd say most of us agree that the game will not function smoothly without house rules.

shadrak wrote:With a discrepancy with regard to what is and what is not canon.

Actually, I'll agree with this. You'll see it used often on these boards, but many use it differently from others often causing confusion. For example ...

Killer Cyborg provided this definition earlier: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/canon

He referenced the first definition (1A). I've seen others use definition 2: "A collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine" with the argument that it must be in a printed book to be canon (so an official answer online is null and void to that person).

Others tend to use it as another word for Official (such as): https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Canon

I'm sure there are more versions. There's various definitions as well as common usage that's not the actual definition but still commonly used. As a result, I actually try to avoid using the word at this point, because too many people use it to mean different things.

shadrak wrote:One demand is that source material, in order to be canon, must come from K.S. (all glory and honor due unto him most high) or from someone he has sanctioned to provide guidance.

First, being snarky to everyone doesn't encourage others to want to help.

Second, in general, main rules books, world books, sourcebooks, dimensions books, and the like tend to be considered official/canon (whether or not Kevin's name is on the front cover or not). Rifters are a bit of an odd ball. The articles within them are fan content. Fan fiction, in general, is not considered official or canon almost anywhere you go. This line gets blurred a bit more since this fan fiction is published in a Palladium product. To complicate matters more, some of the articles are written by staff and/or freelancers. However, since you mentioned having Rifter #11, I'll quote a section of that one for you (and you'll find the same quote, or very similar, in every Rifter that I can recall).

Page 5 wrote:"Optional and Unofficial Rules & Source Material"

This section then goes on to state how it is "not 'official' to the main games or world settings."

This tells us the default status of the Rifter, until told otherwise. Rifter #50 is a great example of a contrary, where most of the articles are "Official." This is generally listed in the Table of Contents, as well as the article itself.

The Q&A articles are a bit of a confusion though, and some people will go one way or the other on the matter. Most were written by Rodney Stott and Shawn Merrow. I believe at the time, they were interns. While I may respect them, I'm not sure how much weight I'd give to the opinion of an intern compared to actual staff members. If I had a legal question and walked into a law office, I wouldn't feel nearly as confident getting my legal advice from an intern as I would to an actual lawyer.

Later Q&A articles start mentioning they also had some input from Kevin, and/or his name showing up in the credits for the article. However, we're not given any clear indication of how much input he had on those or to which questions. However, instead of focusing on that aspect, I'll continue to focus on Rifter #11 for now.

Rifter #11, page 48 wrote:"We at Palladium Books receive a lot of questions about various books over the internet, and as a result we maintain a massive list of answers on our website, but if you do not have access to the net, getting answer can be a bit of a problem. That is why we have decided to do this column. We cannot present all our archives at one time, but we can bring you a selection of answers.
[snip]
... and will cover not only single games, but draw answers from all of Palladium's games.

So they start off identifying as Palladium Books (looking good for official), but then goes to tell us that this is from their archives on the internet (which has been addressed above as unofficial). Beyond that, we are told that it "draws answers from all of Palladium's games." This complicates the matter even more, because despite Palladium's Megaversal system, rules tend to change between the settings. Interestingly enough, whether or not Supernatural P.S. damage is added to Weapon damage is one of those that changes. For example, in Nightbane and HU2 (or, at the very least, the major super power Supernatural Strength from HU2) combines punch damage and weapon damage. PF2 and RUE are one or the other (whichever is greater).

Furthermore, in Best of the Rifter (which covers Rifters #1 through #32), there is a Rifter Index in the back of the book. One of the ways they index articles is by listing "Official" articles. The Rifter Q&A articles (such as the one from Rifter #11) are not on that list.

Hopefully some of that will help. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



My thought was, and, if this were an instance where a contract was made between a company and a client, that if an employee of a company wrote a contract with the client that met all of the contract elements and the employee represented themselves as someone from the company, and the owner of the company read and reviewed the contract...

And then employee and the client signed the contract...

Generally the company would be held responsible as the employee was acting on behalf of the company.

Perhaps this is not what happens with the Rifter articles that are written by individuals that identify themselves as employees of Palladium and then have material reviewed by the owner of the company and are then said material is published...an unusual practice, but maybe it is how the Rifter works.

With regard to the Rifter, you touch on another question that I would have posed KC...what about articles that are purported to have been from published Sourcebooks and Worldbooks that are marked official?

Now, if you say they are official and canonical, that is fine, but that really only works if the Rifter is identifying consistently which articles are canonical and which articles are non-canonical.

If an employee can identify themselves as an agent of the company and submit an article, duly reviewed by the owner of the company and the article be non-canonical, then it is possible and just as likely that material created and designated for a canonical source that is published in Rifter because of size constraints is non-canonical.

In the end, when do we know if someone who is writing is writing in the capacity of:

1. Employee/Freelancer
2. Fan

?

I have overlooked this listing of Rifter articles that are and are not official...I will need to find it. I do know, however, that many individual articles are not identified specifically as non-official.

Also, I have noted that page 5 of Rifter 11 says most material presented in Rifter is "unofficial" or "optional". Most does not mean all. In fact, it most certainly does not mean all. Which goes back to "what is the difference between 'official' (Palladium term) and canonical (player term? not sure I have seen Palladium use it).

And circling back around, if you let an intern slap your name on a product and then you sell said product, your company is probably going to be responsible if said product fails...saying "well, that's not an actual company product" probably won't fly. If you have an employee going door to door selling driveway re-sealing and they say they will give a client a discount and they write a contract and you knew they did it and you didn't intervene? You are probably going to have to honor that contract.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

And let me quote Eliakon here:
Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.


If we accept that canon material and official material ARE the same (as Eliakon previously wrote) and we accept Eliakon's statement above as true, and we understand that SOME materials in Rifter are "official" (canon, in Eliakon's words) - as it must be since MOST are unofficial (if All were unofficial, then all would be unofficial...if most are unofficial then there must be exceptions)...

Then we have a situation in Rifter #11 where:

1. Authors identify themselves as employees of Palladium
2. Authors give answers to fan questions as employees of Palladium
3. Kevin Seimbeda reviewed said articles and answers and did not say that those answers were NOT from Palladium employees...

Then we have a situation where Kevin Seimbeda, through his approval of published material has established canon...

Using KC's definition of canon as general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged and understanding that common law (canon) is the foundation of American jurisprudence, and understanding that the doctrine of Respondeat Superior is an excepted doctrine of BOTH common law and civil law...

Then Rifter #11 answers were "official" using an understanding of American common law and were "canon" Eliakon's definition of what is canon until such a time a Kevin Siembieda or someone Kevin empowered declared them non-official or non-canon..

Palladium/Kevin had the opportunity to unequivicolly state that that FAQ was unofficial prior to its publication...the common understanding of an EMPLOYEE writing an article in a company publication with company review (unless otherwise stated) is that the employee is speaking on behalf of the company, especially when said employee says "WE HERE AT COMPANY X WANT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS"



If Johnson and Johnson published a document for doctors that was "NEWS AND VIEWS!!!" and said "some of these things in this document are official and some of these things are not official"...

And then a Johnson and Johnson employee wrote "Hey, I'm Bob Smith! We here at Johnson and Johnson have developed an FAQ for our clients so they know how to use our prescription drugs. We know many of you can't access that journal on our Johnson and Johnson website, so we wanted to reprint some of that guidance here--

Question: Should I mix my aspirin medicine with my Warfarin?
Answer: Well, aspirin and Warfarin are always taken separately. However, if you are prescribed a low dose aspirin, Warfarin should be taken AFTER your aspirin. For example: if you are prescribed a 50 milligrams of aspirin daily, you will want to take that first and wait at least 30 minutes until you take Warfarin.


In this situation...knowing that Johnson and Johnson published the "News and Views", would that section be considered official advice from Johnson and Johnson?

That question is rhetorical, of course, because it most certainly would.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:And Eliakon (and I think KC) demand that answers to questions be canonical or they are invalid...


THAT depends entirely on context.
As a default, rules discussions are under an assumption that they are discussing the canon rules.
At any time, any person may discuss non-canon rules, providing all of the following apply:
a) They understand that they are discussing non-canon rules.
b) They let other people know that they are discussing non-canon rules.
c) Discussing non-canon rules is an appropriate response to the discussion at hand.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by eliakon »

shadrak wrote:And let me quote Eliakon here:
Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.


If we accept that canon material and official material ARE the same (as Eliakon previously wrote) and we accept Eliakon's statement above as true, and we understand that SOME materials in Rifter are "official" (canon, in Eliakon's words) - as it must be since MOST are unofficial (if All were unofficial, then all would be unofficial...if most are unofficial then there must be exceptions)...

Then we have a situation in Rifter #11 where:

1. Authors identify themselves as employees of Palladium
2. Authors give answers to fan questions as employees of Palladium
3. Kevin Seimbeda reviewed said articles and answers and did not say that those answers were NOT from Palladium employees...

A nice strawman there though
Because Rifter #11 says that it is unofficial on page 5.
Unofficial Rifter is Unofficial.


shadrak wrote:Then we have a situation where Kevin Seimbeda, through his approval of published material has established canon...

Using KC's definition of canon as general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged and understanding that common law (canon) is the foundation of American jurisprudence, and understanding that the doctrine of Respondeat Superior is an excepted doctrine of BOTH common law and civil law...

Then Rifter #11 answers were "official" using an understanding of American common law and were "canon" Eliakon's definition of what is canon until such a time a Kevin Siembieda or someone Kevin empowered declared them non-official or non-canon..

That would be on page five where it says that the Rifter is unofficial.

shadrak wrote:Palladium/Kevin had the opportunity to unequivicolly state that that FAQ was unofficial prior to its publication...the common understanding of an EMPLOYEE writing an article in a company publication with company review (unless otherwise stated) is that the employee is speaking on behalf of the company, especially when said employee says "WE HERE AT COMPANY X WANT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS"

Incorrect
The entire magazine was stated to be unofficial on page 5.
Ergo, it would take a specific statement to the contrary to make any part of it official.


shadrak wrote:If Johnson and Johnson published a document for doctors that was "NEWS AND VIEWS!!!" and said "some of these things in this document are official and some of these things are not official"...

And then a Johnson and Johnson employee wrote "Hey, I'm Bob Smith! We here at Johnson and Johnson have developed an FAQ for our clients so they know how to use our prescription drugs. We know many of you can't access that journal on our Johnson and Johnson website, so we wanted to reprint some of that guidance here--

Question: Should I mix my aspirin medicine with my Warfarin?
Answer: Well, aspirin and Warfarin are always taken separately. However, if you are prescribed a low dose aspirin, Warfarin should be taken AFTER your aspirin. For example: if you are prescribed a 50 milligrams of aspirin daily, you will want to take that first and wait at least 30 minutes until you take Warfarin.


In this situation...knowing that Johnson and Johnson published the "News and Views", would that section be considered official advice from Johnson and Johnson?

That question is rhetorical, of course, because it most certainly would.

Again a lovely strawman. Because your holding up a different case and trying to generalize from one form of official status to another.
I will dissect this though.

If J&J had a forum though that stated clearly "This is an unofficial forum, the answers here do not represent the views of J&J nor have any legal or medical value beyond the status of the provider"... you know just like the Rifters do then it would not be official advice.
If the forum is listed as an official forum and that the views were official... then it would be official.
Simply because a format can contain official material does not mean that material in it is official.
The only way that material can be deemed official if it is being published in an otherwise unofficial source is for that material in and of itself to be listed as official.
So in this case?
The forum "news and views" would be unofficial
The status of Bob though hinges on the issue of if the FAQ that he is referencing is official (in this case the statement is that he is referencing an already published official FAQ.). To be considered official Bob would need to cite BOTH that the FAQ he is referencing is the official one, AND that he is making such statements in official capacity.
Otherwise he falls under the disclaimer "Nothing in this forum is official"
That is what disclaimers mean.
In this example they are explicitly referring to a FAQ that has been explicitly stated by Palladium to not be official. More they make no claims whatsoever that their answers are official, even though they know that they are being published in a format that is considered unofficial and even though Palladium Books had already demonstrated that they could, would, and did, mark official material in the Rifters with a specific notation that it was official.
As such their answers are of the same canonicity/officialness as the FAQ in reference. In this case...none.


No amount of 'intuitive' work will make it official.
Now a GM can rule that they feel it is official in so far as their games are concered... that is their perogitive.
But that does not make it an actual official rule.
As an example if you went to a tournament style convention and tried to cite this rule you would be informed that the rule is not official and therefor is not binding.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:And let me quote Eliakon here:
Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.


If we accept that canon material and official material ARE the same (as Eliakon previously wrote) and we accept Eliakon's statement above as true, and we understand that SOME materials in Rifter are "official" (canon, in Eliakon's words) - as it must be since MOST are unofficial (if All were unofficial, then all would be unofficial...if most are unofficial then there must be exceptions)...

Then we have a situation in Rifter #11 where:

1. Authors identify themselves as employees of Palladium
2. Authors give answers to fan questions as employees of Palladium
3. Kevin Seimbeda reviewed said articles and answers and did not say that those answers were NOT from Palladium employees...

Then we have a situation where Kevin Seimbeda, through his approval of published material has established canon...

Using KC's definition of canon as general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged and understanding that common law (canon) is the foundation of American jurisprudence, and understanding that the doctrine of Respondeat Superior is an excepted doctrine of BOTH common law and civil law...


We're not under common or civil law, though. We're talking about a RPG setting and system of rules.

If I understand the situation correctly, a Rifter article quoted rules from the FanFaq.
That's "official" in that a) the Rifter is a Palladium product, not a counterfeit or fan-fiction product, and b) the FanFaq is Palladium's "official" FAQ.
But neither of those things are canon, and the FanFaq is not (as a rule) canon, because it's not something by which the actual rules of the game may be accurately judged.

Look at it this way.
If there was a "Federal Law FAQ" that was written by non-lawyers with no particular qualifications and no particular understanding of Federal Law, and those people made many answers up entirely, and for some reason the Federal Government decided to post that FAQ on their website and/or publish it in a manual,
would that actually change the federal laws?

The answer is NO, it would not.

It would provide a legal defense for people who used the bogus answers in that FAQ, under the impression that they believed that the FAQ accurately represented the laws, but that's not the same as actually changing or creating laws, because Congress was NOT involved in the creation of the FAQ, and even if they were, the FAQ was not created through the same channels that are legally required to create or change Federal Law.

It would be a mess, and legitimate means for any number of lawsuits, but the Federal FanFaq would not represent, change, or create any Federal Laws.
It might be official, but it wouldn't be canon.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

eliakon wrote:
shadrak wrote:And let me quote Eliakon here:
Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.


If we accept that canon material and official material ARE the same (as Eliakon previously wrote) and we accept Eliakon's statement above as true, and we understand that SOME materials in Rifter are "official" (canon, in Eliakon's words) - as it must be since MOST are unofficial (if All were unofficial, then all would be unofficial...if most are unofficial then there must be exceptions)...

Then we have a situation in Rifter #11 where:

1. Authors identify themselves as employees of Palladium
2. Authors give answers to fan questions as employees of Palladium
3. Kevin Seimbeda reviewed said articles and answers and did not say that those answers were NOT from Palladium employees...

A nice strawman there though
Because Rifter #11 says that it is unofficial on page 5.
Unofficial Rifter is Unofficial.


shadrak wrote:Then we have a situation where Kevin Seimbeda, through his approval of published material has established canon...

Using KC's definition of canon as general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged and understanding that common law (canon) is the foundation of American jurisprudence, and understanding that the doctrine of Respondeat Superior is an excepted doctrine of BOTH common law and civil law...

Then Rifter #11 answers were "official" using an understanding of American common law and were "canon" Eliakon's definition of what is canon until such a time a Kevin Siembieda or someone Kevin empowered declared them non-official or non-canon..

That would be on page five where it says that the Rifter is unofficial.

shadrak wrote:Palladium/Kevin had the opportunity to unequivicolly state that that FAQ was unofficial prior to its publication...the common understanding of an EMPLOYEE writing an article in a company publication with company review (unless otherwise stated) is that the employee is speaking on behalf of the company, especially when said employee says "WE HERE AT COMPANY X WANT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS"

Incorrect
The entire magazine was stated to be unofficial on page 5.
Ergo, it would take a specific statement to the contrary to make any part of it official.


shadrak wrote:If Johnson and Johnson published a document for doctors that was "NEWS AND VIEWS!!!" and said "some of these things in this document are official and some of these things are not official"...

And then a Johnson and Johnson employee wrote "Hey, I'm Bob Smith! We here at Johnson and Johnson have developed an FAQ for our clients so they know how to use our prescription drugs. We know many of you can't access that journal on our Johnson and Johnson website, so we wanted to reprint some of that guidance here--

Question: Should I mix my aspirin medicine with my Warfarin?
Answer: Well, aspirin and Warfarin are always taken separately. However, if you are prescribed a low dose aspirin, Warfarin should be taken AFTER your aspirin. For example: if you are prescribed a 50 milligrams of aspirin daily, you will want to take that first and wait at least 30 minutes until you take Warfarin.


In this situation...knowing that Johnson and Johnson published the "News and Views", would that section be considered official advice from Johnson and Johnson?

That question is rhetorical, of course, because it most certainly would.

Again a lovely strawman. Because your holding up a different case and trying to generalize from one form of official status to another.
I will dissect this though.

If J&J had a forum though that stated clearly "This is an unofficial forum, the answers here do not represent the views of J&J nor have any legal or medical value beyond the status of the provider"... you know just like the Rifters do then it would not be official advice.
If the forum is listed as an official forum and that the views were official... then it would be official.
Simply because a format can contain official material does not mean that material in it is official.
The only way that material can be deemed official if it is being published in an otherwise unofficial source is for that material in and of itself to be listed as official.
So in this case?
The forum "news and views" would be unofficial
The status of Bob though hinges on the issue of if the FAQ that he is referencing is official (in this case the statement is that he is referencing an already published official FAQ.). To be considered official Bob would need to cite BOTH that the FAQ he is referencing is the official one, AND that he is making such statements in official capacity.
Otherwise he falls under the disclaimer "Nothing in this forum is official"
That is what disclaimers mean.
In this example they are explicitly referring to a FAQ that has been explicitly stated by Palladium to not be official. More they make no claims whatsoever that their answers are official, even though they know that they are being published in a format that is considered unofficial and even though Palladium Books had already demonstrated that they could, would, and did, mark official material in the Rifters with a specific notation that it was official.
As such their answers are of the same canonicity/officialness as the FAQ in reference. In this case...none.


No amount of 'intuitive' work will make it official.
Now a GM can rule that they feel it is official in so far as their games are concered... that is their perogitive.
But that does not make it an actual official rule.
As an example if you went to a tournament style convention and tried to cite this rule you would be informed that the rule is not official and therefor is not binding.


Please provide the quote in its entirety from page 5
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Here's what I have from page 5:

Optional and Unofficial Rules and Source Material:

Please note that most of the material presented in the Rifter is unofficial or optional source material. They are alternative ideas and things one can include in his campaign or enjoy reading. They are not official to the main games or world settings....




I believe that we have established that SOME material contained in Rifter has been official...

Have we not?

Or are you saying EVERYTHING in Rifter is unofficial?
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Does "Please note that most of the material presented in Rifter is unofficial" necessarily mean that ALL material in the Rifter is unofficial?

Or am I missing another section that says "Rifter #11 is unofficial"...

Cuz, all I see is the statement that most articles are unofficial...

So, getting back to J&J...

If J&J had official recommendations on the use of their drugs in a some newsletters and then allowed non-official recommendations to be published by individuals identified as employees responsible for giving official recommendations...

I think they would have a problem.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Side question:

What in what Rifter does the first officially marked article appear as "official"?

When does the first "official" article get published?

Not that it matters...when an employee is speaking for a company, or when it can reasonably be believe that they are speaking for a company, it does not have to be designated as official.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:If J&J had official recommendations on the use of their drugs in a some newsletters and then allowed non-official recommendations to be published by individuals identified as employees responsible for giving official recommendations...

I think they would have a problem.


Undoubtedly.
But those problems would be for the company, not for the actual rules of use, which would remain unaltered by any misrepresentation.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote:Look at it this way.
If there was a "Federal Law FAQ" that was written by non-lawyers with no particular qualifications and no particular understanding of Federal Law, and those people made many answers up entirely, and for some reason the Federal Government decided to post that FAQ on their website and/or publish it in a manual,
would that actually change the federal laws?

The answer is NO, it would not.

It would provide a legal defense for people who used the bogus answers in that FAQ, under the impression that they believed that the FAQ accurately represented the laws, but that's not the same as actually changing or creating laws, because Congress was NOT involved in the creation of the FAQ, and even if they were, the FAQ was not created through the same channels that are legally required to create or change Federal Law.

It would be a mess, and legitimate means for any number of lawsuits, but the Federal FanFaq would not represent, change, or create any Federal Laws.
It might be official, but it wouldn't be canon.


What if that Federal Law FAQ was written by the individuals responsible for administering and adjudicating those laws rather than random individuals?

Like the Federal Register?
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:If J&J had official recommendations on the use of their drugs in a some newsletters and then allowed non-official recommendations to be published by individuals identified as employees responsible for giving official recommendations...

I think they would have a problem.


Undoubtedly.
But those problems would be for the company, not for the actual rules of use, which would remain unaltered by any misrepresentation.



Well, the rules of use in that case could get someone killed ;)...

And the company would probably be held legally liable.

I totally get what you are saying...

And if an employee is simply reposting a fan faq, it certainly shouldn't be considered canon...

But the impression left by the FAQ is that it is sanctioned by the company...

That is, even if written by a fan, freelancer, or employee, the impression is (was) that it was good to go because Palladium reviewed it and attached their name to it without saying "look, these are just a collection of house rules" (at least, I never saw that disclaimer).

For me, I only stopped assuming the FAQ WASN'T legit when it was clear that it wasn't being updated and that it had so many contradictions that it made no sense...

And even then I assumed it was legit Palladium material because---contradictions haven't been uncommon.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by shadrak »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:And let me quote Eliakon here:
Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.


If we accept that canon material and official material ARE the same (as Eliakon previously wrote) and we accept Eliakon's statement above as true, and we understand that SOME materials in Rifter are "official" (canon, in Eliakon's words) - as it must be since MOST are unofficial (if All were unofficial, then all would be unofficial...if most are unofficial then there must be exceptions)...

Then we have a situation in Rifter #11 where:

1. Authors identify themselves as employees of Palladium
2. Authors give answers to fan questions as employees of Palladium
3. Kevin Seimbeda reviewed said articles and answers and did not say that those answers were NOT from Palladium employees...

Then we have a situation where Kevin Seimbeda, through his approval of published material has established canon...

Using KC's definition of canon as general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged and understanding that common law (canon) is the foundation of American jurisprudence, and understanding that the doctrine of Respondeat Superior is an excepted doctrine of BOTH common law and civil law...


We're not under common or civil law, though. We're talking about a RPG setting and system of rules.

If I understand the situation correctly, a Rifter article quoted rules from the FanFaq.
That's "official" in that a) the Rifter is a Palladium product, not a counterfeit or fan-fiction product, and b) the FanFaq is Palladium's "official" FAQ.
But neither of those things are canon, and the FanFaq is not (as a rule) canon, because it's not something by which the actual rules of the game may be accurately judged.

Look at it this way.
If there was a "Federal Law FAQ" that was written by non-lawyers with no particular qualifications and no particular understanding of Federal Law, and those people made many answers up entirely, and for some reason the Federal Government decided to post that FAQ on their website and/or publish it in a manual,
would that actually change the federal laws?

The answer is NO, it would not.

It would provide a legal defense for people who used the bogus answers in that FAQ, under the impression that they believed that the FAQ accurately represented the laws, but that's not the same as actually changing or creating laws, because Congress was NOT involved in the creation of the FAQ, and even if they were, the FAQ was not created through the same channels that are legally required to create or change Federal Law.

It would be a mess, and legitimate means for any number of lawsuits, but the Federal FanFaq would not represent, change, or create any Federal Laws.
It might be official, but it wouldn't be canon.


Oh, and, to be clear...the article never says it is from the Fan FAQ...it says

"we at Palladium Books receive a lot of questions about the various books over the Internet, and as a result we maintain a massive list of answers on our website, but if you do not have access to the net, getting to these answers can be a bit of a problem. That is why we have decided to do this column....

If you want to ask a question, feel free to send an e-mail to rstott@palladiumbooks.com, or visit the Palladium Books website at http://www.palladiumbooks.com.


Heck, until you or someone else said the FAQ on the website was a Fan FAQ I didn't know that...my issue with that FAQ was the internal contradiction and the fact that it hadn't been updated to reflect new rules and materials so it just couldn't be trusted.
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Re: Strength above 30.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

shadrak wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
shadrak wrote:And let me quote Eliakon here:
Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.


If we accept that canon material and official material ARE the same (as Eliakon previously wrote) and we accept Eliakon's statement above as true, and we understand that SOME materials in Rifter are "official" (canon, in Eliakon's words) - as it must be since MOST are unofficial (if All were unofficial, then all would be unofficial...if most are unofficial then there must be exceptions)...

Then we have a situation in Rifter #11 where:

1. Authors identify themselves as employees of Palladium
2. Authors give answers to fan questions as employees of Palladium
3. Kevin Seimbeda reviewed said articles and answers and did not say that those answers were NOT from Palladium employees...

Then we have a situation where Kevin Seimbeda, through his approval of published material has established canon...

Using KC's definition of canon as general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged and understanding that common law (canon) is the foundation of American jurisprudence, and understanding that the doctrine of Respondeat Superior is an excepted doctrine of BOTH common law and civil law...


We're not under common or civil law, though. We're talking about a RPG setting and system of rules.

If I understand the situation correctly, a Rifter article quoted rules from the FanFaq.
That's "official" in that a) the Rifter is a Palladium product, not a counterfeit or fan-fiction product, and b) the FanFaq is Palladium's "official" FAQ.
But neither of those things are canon, and the FanFaq is not (as a rule) canon, because it's not something by which the actual rules of the game may be accurately judged.

Look at it this way.
If there was a "Federal Law FAQ" that was written by non-lawyers with no particular qualifications and no particular understanding of Federal Law, and those people made many answers up entirely, and for some reason the Federal Government decided to post that FAQ on their website and/or publish it in a manual,
would that actually change the federal laws?

The answer is NO, it would not.

It would provide a legal defense for people who used the bogus answers in that FAQ, under the impression that they believed that the FAQ accurately represented the laws, but that's not the same as actually changing or creating laws, because Congress was NOT involved in the creation of the FAQ, and even if they were, the FAQ was not created through the same channels that are legally required to create or change Federal Law.

It would be a mess, and legitimate means for any number of lawsuits, but the Federal FanFaq would not represent, change, or create any Federal Laws.
It might be official, but it wouldn't be canon.


Oh, and, to be clear...the article never says it is from the Fan FAQ...it says

"we at Palladium Books receive a lot of questions about the various books over the Internet, and as a result we maintain a massive list of answers on our website, but if you do not have access to the net, getting to these answers can be a bit of a problem. That is why we have decided to do this column....

If you want to ask a question, feel free to send an e-mail to rstott@palladiumbooks.com, or visit the Palladium Books website at http://www.palladiumbooks.com.


Heck, until you or someone else said the FAQ on the website was a Fan FAQ I didn't know that...my issue with that FAQ was the internal contradiction and the fact that it hadn't been updated to reflect new rules and materials so it just couldn't be trusted.


:ok:

So are the questions actually from the FanFaq? As in, are they reprints of the same questions and answers?

Either way, yeah, I initially discarded the FAQ simply because of their nonsensical answers in many cases.
Prysus was the one who tracked it to it source, with his usual methodical precision.
Personally, I don't like that Palladium presents the FAQ as if it was something that The Palladium Authors had Thoughtfully come up with as part of of an overall plan or pattern of Their Megaversal System.
I don't chalk it up to laziness or malice, but simply to KS not really grokking why it would be important to have a unified coherent system in the first place.
He seems like a "whatever works for your group" kind of guy who doesn't get that when different groups get together to discuss their mutual game, it's often a shocking disappointment to discover that--due to each group making countless house-rules and house-interpretations (often without realizing it)--they're not really playing the same game.
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