Bionic Horses

[HarleeKnight]

Cyber-Knight says they can choose one, but I have never seen stats on them at all... so does anyone know where they can be found?

[guardiandashi]

Cyber-Knight says they can choose one, but I have never seen stats on them at all... so does anyone know where they can be found?

new west 195ish are the robot horses

[glitterboy2098]

Bionic horses have stats in WB17 Warlords of Russia. but the stats are nicely generic so anywhere with bionic technology should have them to some degree.

[Curbludgeon]

WB3 England pg 113
WB17 Warlords of Russia pg 171

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

WB3 England pg 113
WB17 Warlords of Russia pg 171

Some serious irony that the bionic horses from England are better than the Russian ones (speed/stats wise, not MDC)

And -cheap-, too, at least for the partial reconstruction - only 280k!

[SpiritInterface]

I haven't found stats on cyber-horses. As guardiandashi posted, stats on Robot Horses are in New West WB14 page 195, they are mentioned in the RMB, Vampire Kingdom, and England but no stats are given. I found stats of Real Horses in PF Monsters and Animals (2nd ed) page 205.

[SpiritInterface]

WB3 England pg 113
WB17 Warlords of Russia pg 171

Some serious irony that the bionic horses from England are better than the Russian ones (speed/stats wise, not MDC)

And -cheap-, too, at least for the partial reconstruction - only 280k!

I totally missed that one, thanks.

[ShadowLogan]

Cyber-Knight says they can choose one, but I have never seen stats on them at all... so does anyone know where they can be found?

new west 195ish are the robot horses

Then there is the Robot RCC in Source Book 1 (original and revised). Some of the robot systems are basically bionic at a premium cost IIRC.

Bionic Horses though...

Bionics Sourcebook on pg89-90 when discussing Bionic Leg Options does list "Horse", it would literally turn your lower body into a horse (ie you now look like a Cyber Centaur). Though how much of this is applicable to a Bionic conversion of an actual horse isn't discussed, but it shows elements are present (other required elements like the head, tail, and organs are already there for humans and D-Bees so it wouldn't be a stretch with some markup for uncommonality).

[taalismn]

WB3 England pg 113
WB17 Warlords of Russia pg 171

Some serious irony that the bionic horses from England are better than the Russian ones (speed/stats wise, not MDC)

And -cheap-, too, at least for the partial reconstruction - only 280k!

Discount German bionics as part of a market bid?
"Put some Mercedes(legs) on your Exmoor!"

"British Heart, German Dive; Ride the Best of Europe."

[HarleeKnight]

Would there be a benefit to bionic horses over robot horses?

[glitterboy2098]

Speed and endurance should be similar, but a bionic horse will just need feed, while a robot one will need recharging.
And a bionic horse still has a horses brain and evolution-hardwired instincts, which means it'll be able to warn the rider of threats like predators or the like, through its own reactions to sensory input. Something a robot horse can't do as readily without a fairly advanced and expensive AI

[kaid]

Would there be a benefit to bionic horses over robot horses?

Generally the price tag/endurance. Generally robot horses are nuclear powered so unlimited endurance but it basically bumps the cost by around 1 mil or so. Bionics in general is less expensive than robotics. One thing to note a bionic horse is still a horse so make sure it is well trained nobody wants to get horse kicked by a grumpy bionic horse.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Speed and endurance should be similar, but a bionic horse will just need feed, while a robot one will need recharging.
And a bionic horse still has a horses brain and evolution-hardwired instincts, which means it'll be able to warn the rider of threats like predators or the like, through its own reactions to sensory input. Something a robot horse can't do as readily without a fairly advanced and expensive AI

Even WITH the AI its not going to be as good.

To expand on what GB said, in the instances that Bionic Horses are mentioned, "real" Horsemen prefer them to robots for several reasons, in no particular order:

Cost is way lower. (Like, the most expensive Bionic conversion i saw was cheaper than the very cheap robot horses)
Maintenance is way easier.
Barring a VERY expensive AI (which can cost millions on its own), Bionic Horses are smarter
Bionic Horses apparently adapt EXTREMELY well to being converted and still behave like a real animal. Which means any training it received (as the son of a horsewoman, let me tell you, that "man and horse are one" thing is real) with its rider will stick. And its still familiar with its rider. They respond better than all but the absolute most expensive robot horses.
Its still a "real" animal, meaning it retains a lot of senses (even an intuition, as it were) that are helpful.
The addition of some cybernetics can ameliorate some of the very few weaknesses real horses have (as mentioned in England) - cybernetic sound blockers for ears so horses dont get spooked, etc.

And cheaper. Way cheaper.

280k for a basic partial conversion. Thats dirt cheap. Maybe 320k-ish with the barding.

[kaid]

Speed and endurance should be similar, but a bionic horse will just need feed, while a robot one will need recharging.
And a bionic horse still has a horses brain and evolution-hardwired instincts, which means it'll be able to warn the rider of threats like predators or the like, through its own reactions to sensory input. Something a robot horse can't do as readily without a fairly advanced and expensive AI

Even WITH the AI its not going to be as good.

To expand on what GB said, in the instances that Bionic Horses are mentioned, "real" Horsemen prefer them to robots for several reasons, in no particular order:

Cost is way lower. (Like, the most expensive Bionic conversion i saw was cheaper than the very cheap robot horses)
Maintenance is way easier.
Barring a VERY expensive AI (which can cost millions on its own), Bionic Horses are smarter
Bionic Horses apparently adapt EXTREMELY well to being converted and still behave like a real animal. Which means any training it received (as the son of a horsewoman, let me tell you, that "man and horse are one" thing is real) with its rider will stick. And its still familiar with its rider. They respond better than all but the absolute most expensive robot horses.
Its still a "real" animal, meaning it retains a lot of senses (even an intuition, as it were) that are helpful.
The addition of some cybernetics can ameliorate some of the very few weaknesses real horses have (as mentioned in England) - cybernetic sound blockers for ears so horses dont get spooked, etc.

And cheaper. Way cheaper.

280k for a basic partial conversion. Thats dirt cheap. Maybe 320k-ish with the barding.

Still the advantage of it being a real horse is also its disadvantage. Real horses can balk at explosions/combat/supernatural critters random lights sounds. Now couple those natural reactions with bionic reinforced limbs and you better damn well know what you are doing to handle a bionic horse. A robot horse has less of a good horses qualities but also will do what you tell it to when you tell it to and is not going to randomly spook or kick out with the force strong enough to dent a tank.

[Mack]

Kaid beat me to it. I'd be worried about a bionic horse getting spooked.

Whoops, sorry I scared your horse, Mister.
It's alright, he'll only go 50 or 60 miles before he stops...

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I guess since ive actually spent a lot of time around trained horses (though i cant ride to save my life), i just dont see that as an issue. Trained horses simply dont spook that easily at all. Trained warhorses even less so. And the bond between a rider and his horse cannot be glossed over.

The cost is also the biggest reason for me. Millions vs a few hundred thousand.

[taalismn]

[ nobody wants to get horse kicked by a grumpy bionic horse.

"Remember to wear your armored cup when you're muckin' out the stables, 'cause Lord Grantham doesn't pay out for 'Mister Stud' replacement prosthetics."
"Cheap bastard."
"I HEARD THAT, KNAVE!"

[Shark_Force]

cyborg armour is probably another compelling reason. if someone shoots your robot horse, the repair bill is going to be unpleasant for even 1d6 damage.

someone shoots your cyborg horse, assuming you go with the lighter armours, it's less than 30k to replace the entire thing (which is cheaper than repairs, but that's normal for rifts) and the body armour probably has nearly as much MDC as the actual robot horse in the first place...

[taalismn]

cyborg armour is probably another compelling reason. if someone shoots your robot horse, the repair bill is going to be unpleasant for even 1d6 damage.

someone shoots your cyborg horse, assuming you go with the lighter armours, it's less than 30k to replace the entire thing (which is cheaper than repairs, but that's normal for rifts) and the body armour probably has nearly as much MDC as the actual robot horse in the first place...

"Sorry, Trigger, you're easier to lose on my wallet."

[Shark_Force]

cyborg armour is probably another compelling reason. if someone shoots your robot horse, the repair bill is going to be unpleasant for even 1d6 damage.

someone shoots your cyborg horse, assuming you go with the lighter armours, it's less than 30k to replace the entire thing (which is cheaper than repairs, but that's normal for rifts) and the body armour probably has nearly as much MDC as the actual robot horse in the first place...

"Sorry, Trigger, you're easier to lose on my wallet."

who says you're going to lose it? unless you're also a cyborg, your horse is probably wearing more armour than you. 150 MDC main body for under 30k isn't available for typical humans last i checked

[taalismn]

who says you're going to lose it? unless you're also a cyborg, your horse is probably wearing more armour than you. 150 MDC main body for under 30k isn't available for typical humans last i checked

Because horses are bigger and easier targets? Admittedly, armor makes them harder to chip away at, but psychologically they're going to arouse artillery-interest.
And small arms interest as well...especially if you're using your horse Mongolian-style(i.e. as cover).

[Shark_Force]

who says you're going to lose it? unless you're also a cyborg, your horse is probably wearing more armour than you. 150 MDC main body for under 30k isn't available for typical humans last i checked

Because horses are bigger and easier targets? Admittedly, armor makes them harder to chip away at, but psychologically they're going to arouse artillery-interest.
And small arms interest as well...especially if you're using your horse Mongolian-style(i.e. as cover).

funny enough, in PB, the horse is probably actually a harder target; it probably isn't planning on using APM on attacks, so it can just dodge all day while the rider keeps shooting (wild, probably, but still, it's basically automatic dodge at the expense of attack bonus at that point )

[kaid]

I guess since ive actually spent a lot of time around trained horses (though i cant ride to save my life), i just dont see that as an issue. Trained horses simply dont spook that easily at all. Trained warhorses even less so. And the bond between a rider and his horse cannot be glossed over.

The cost is also the biggest reason for me. Millions vs a few hundred thousand.

Bionic horses in the hands of a skilled rider like a cyberknight or a cowboy are a great bargin to power option. They cost much less than a robot horse and are still very combat survivable especially if you get them barding.

But for anybody who is not a top end rider robot horse is probably the better option because if are not really confident horse rider/owner having something as powerful as a bionic horse with the reactions/tendencies of a normal horse is probably not a great idea. For those people a robot horse who goes where you tell it to/when you tell it to is handy. Nuke powered robot horses although expensive have unlimited range and can keep watch and actively patrol/guard your camp while you sleep. They lose out on some of the sensing capabilities of a normal horse but you gain a lot in active guarding capability.

[Blue_Lion]

According to Rifts New west PG 195 the robot horse are programed smarter than normal horses, equivalent IQ stat of 9. Do not have stats for a real horse or Borg horse with me with me but i am not going to buy a horse is as smart as a person. (given its real life iq its stat would be something around 2-3)are
I do not see a cost for improved intelligence.

In addition they are harder to steal programed to only respond to commands from set people.
Lack the fear response, do not need to eat(saves lots of time).

Real horse according to PF are highly psi sensitive and can see invisible.

[eliakon]

Neither of them is better.
It is simply that they both have advantages and disadvantages and that the user needs to decide what is best for their particular needs.

Cost is a huge issue for most people, as most people don't simply get to take the most expensive items possible just because they want them. PCs during character creation are exceptions to normal economic factors

Cyberknights and the like are likely to have telepathy... which they can use to communicate with an animal

Robots are harder to steal in some ways, and easier in others. After all someone with machine psi powers can easily take control of a robot and reprogram it. It is a LOT harder to 'reprogram' a trained animal.

On the flip side a robot horse can be more heavily armed, and can act as a guard. They also don't need food and such so they are more 'fuel efficient'

So basically... a person will pick the one that fits their particular needs, desires, and situation.

[Blue_Lion]

Speed and endurance should be similar, but a bionic horse will just need feed, while a robot one will need recharging.
And a bionic horse still has a horses brain and evolution-hardwired instincts, which means it'll be able to warn the rider of threats like predators or the like, through its own reactions to sensory input. Something a robot horse can't do as readily without a fairly advanced and expensive AI

You mean the default AI of robot horses. Because the robot has that advanced AI as its default AI.

[Blue_Lion]

Neither of them is better.
It is simply that they both have advantages and disadvantages and that the user needs to decide what is best for their particular needs.

Cost is a huge issue for most people, as most people don't simply get to take the most expensive items possible just because they want them. PCs during character creation are exceptions to normal economic factors

Cyberknights and the like are likely to have telepathy... which they can use to communicate with an animal

Robots are harder to steal in some ways, and easier in others. After all someone with machine psi powers can easily take control of a robot and reprogram it. It is a LOT harder to 'reprogram' a trained animal.

On the flip side a robot horse can be more heavily armed, and can act as a guard. They also don't need food and such so they are more 'fuel efficient'

So basically... a person will pick the one that fits their particular needs, desires, and situation.

And a person with spells or psi to control animals could do so to a regular horse as well as a normal thief steeling it. Basically yes with the right powers you could still a robot horse, but any one that knows how to handle horses can steal a normal/robot horse.

Can telepathy communicate with an animal that has no language? that does seam outside the power.

A horses natural psi would be an advantage, cost natural would be cheapest, then bionic then robot.

I am not saying the a horse borg would not have advantages but they are not always the ones some people are suggesting. In the end what you get comes down to personal choice and budget.

[ShadowLogan]

Neither of them is better.
It is simply that they both have advantages and disadvantages and that the user needs to decide what is best for their particular needs.

Cost is a huge issue for most people, as most people don't simply get to take the most expensive items possible just because they want them. PCs during character creation are exceptions to normal economic factors

Cyberknights and the like are likely to have telepathy... which they can use to communicate with an animal

Robots are harder to steal in some ways, and easier in others. After all someone with machine psi powers can easily take control of a robot and reprogram it. It is a LOT harder to 'reprogram' a trained animal.

On the flip side a robot horse can be more heavily armed, and can act as a guard. They also don't need food and such so they are more 'fuel efficient'

So basically... a person will pick the one that fits their particular needs, desires, and situation.

And a person with spells or psi to control animals could do so to a regular horse as well as a normal thief steeling it. Basically yes with the right powers you could still a robot horse, but any one that knows how to handle horses can steal a normal/robot horse.

Can telepathy communicate with an animal that has no language? that does seam outside the power.

A horses natural psi would be an advantage, cost natural would be cheapest, then bionic then robot.

I am not saying the a horse borg would not have advantages but they are not always the ones some people are suggesting. In the end what you get comes down to personal choice and budget.

Re: Telepathy.
It might be outside of the scope of the power, though a trained animal that can respond to verbal commands might also respond to the telepathic message if its in the correct tongue.

"Commune with Animals" might be closer to allowing something like this (it is considered a form of telepathy), though so would "Empathetic Transmission" or "Hypnotic Suggestion" (both mention animals) and "Mentally Possess Others" (maybe, doesn't mention animals just persons).

[Nightmask]

Neither of them is better.
It is simply that they both have advantages and disadvantages and that the user needs to decide what is best for their particular needs.

Cost is a huge issue for most people, as most people don't simply get to take the most expensive items possible just because they want them. PCs during character creation are exceptions to normal economic factors

Cyberknights and the like are likely to have telepathy... which they can use to communicate with an animal

Robots are harder to steal in some ways, and easier in others. After all someone with machine psi powers can easily take control of a robot and reprogram it. It is a LOT harder to 'reprogram' a trained animal.

On the flip side a robot horse can be more heavily armed, and can act as a guard. They also don't need food and such so they are more 'fuel efficient'

So basically... a person will pick the one that fits their particular needs, desires, and situation.

And a person with spells or psi to control animals could do so to a regular horse as well as a normal thief steeling it. Basically yes with the right powers you could still a robot horse, but any one that knows how to handle horses can steal a normal/robot horse.

Can telepathy communicate with an animal that has no language? that does seam outside the power.

A horses natural psi would be an advantage, cost natural would be cheapest, then bionic then robot.

I am not saying the a horse borg would not have advantages but they are not always the ones some people are suggesting. In the end what you get comes down to personal choice and budget.

One would think that like with humans/humanoids the more you convert a horse from flesh and blood to metal and circuits it loses its natural abilities, so a full-conversion horse borg would pretty much have no natural animal psychic abilities left because they wouldn't be much more than a brain, spinal column, and maybe basic digestive system with the rest being machine.

[eliakon]

Spoiler:

Neither of them is better.
It is simply that they both have advantages and disadvantages and that the user needs to decide what is best for their particular needs.

Cost is a huge issue for most people, as most people don't simply get to take the most expensive items possible just because they want them. PCs during character creation are exceptions to normal economic factors

Cyberknights and the like are likely to have telepathy... which they can use to communicate with an animal

Robots are harder to steal in some ways, and easier in others. After all someone with machine psi powers can easily take control of a robot and reprogram it. It is a LOT harder to 'reprogram' a trained animal.

On the flip side a robot horse can be more heavily armed, and can act as a guard. They also don't need food and such so they are more 'fuel efficient'

So basically... a person will pick the one that fits their particular needs, desires, and situation.

And a person with spells or psi to control animals could do so to a regular horse as well as a normal thief steeling it. Basically yes with the right powers you could still a robot horse, but any one that knows how to handle horses can steal a normal/robot horse.

Not exactly...
Trained animals are a LOT harder to steal. Simply being qualified to handle horses does not mean your going to be able to steal a trained one. Animal control abilities are a bit rarer. Psi stalker and the like animal powers are a gray area with some GMs ruling that they override training and such and some not...

Can telepathy communicate with an animal that has no language? that does seam outside the power.

I don't see the slightest reason why not.
The power doesn't say anything about language at all in its description so adding that limitation to it would be a house rule as far as I can tell.
This is reinforced by the fact that some of the various animal level intelligences in the game have and use telepathy.
If the animal can understand human speech said vocally there is no reason to assume it would not understand the same speech telepathically transmitted.

A horses natural psi would be an advantage, cost natural would be cheapest, then bionic then robot.

True... but since the discussion was between Robots and Cyborgs that was the options I was looking at...

I am not saying the a horse borg would not have advantages but they are not always the ones some people are suggesting. In the end what you get comes down to personal choice and budget.

Exactly
At the end of the day every advantage and every disadvantage is situational. There is no such thing as a 'pure' advantage or disadvantage in something like this.
It will heavily depend on the person making the choice, and the world that they are making that choice in. As the way that the GM of the particular game views things will have a massive influence on what you do or do not want.

[ShadowLogan]

Can telepathy communicate with an animal that has no language? that does seam outside the power.

I don't see the slightest reason why not.
The power doesn't say anything about language at all in its description so adding that limitation to it would be a house rule as far as I can tell.
This is reinforced by the fact that some of the various animal level intelligences in the game have and use telepathy.
If the animal can understand human speech said vocally there is no reason to assume it would not understand the same speech telepathically transmitted.

While the specific power in this instance doesn't mention anything about language specifically it is implied and in broader sense the Phase World Trade 2 (DB2 pg52, Telepathic in nature) Language would suggest it is not universal.

[eliakon]

Can telepathy communicate with an animal that has no language? that does seam outside the power.

I don't see the slightest reason why not.
The power doesn't say anything about language at all in its description so adding that limitation to it would be a house rule as far as I can tell.
This is reinforced by the fact that some of the various animal level intelligences in the game have and use telepathy.
If the animal can understand human speech said vocally there is no reason to assume it would not understand the same speech telepathically transmitted.

While the specific power in this instance doesn't mention anything about language specifically it is implied and in broader sense the Phase World Trade 2 (DB2 pg52, Telepathic in nature) Language would suggest it is not universal.

A language that is telepathic goes the other way in my opinion.
After all... if you could only talk in specific languages via telepathy and you had to have that language to do so... then you COULDNT have a telepathic language.
The existence of a special language that is for telepaths suggests that telepathy itself is NOT linguistic in and of itself any more than sound is inherently a language and can only be heard by those that speak the same language as the person making noise...

It is also, as I said simply incompatible with the fact that there are animals with telepathy. This is pretty much cut and dried.
Animal exists
Animal has telepathy
Animal does NOT have language skills
Ergo animal does not need language to use telepathy.

[ShadowLogan]

@eliakon
The fact that a Telepathic Language has to be established shows that telepahy is not usable as a form of universal communication, even among telepaths. Which does make sense given that languages have their own rules and organization that differ from one language to the next.

Now some creatures that possess Telepathy might have a variant of the power that allows them a much wider scope than the baseline power. We know variants exist with different scopes. The Baseline Psi-Sword has variant in the CK OCC, the Amaki Duelist CC, the Psi-Dagger (Psycape), and IINM the Psi-Tomahawk (Spirit West). A Burster's Pyrokensis is different than the baseline version. Bio-regeneration has normal and super versions (and some classes have their own form). There are races with Telekinetic-type powers and ectoplasm at zero or no cost, even Telemechanic-type powers. The Operator if they select Object Read has a different form of the baseline power (RMB pg78, RUE pg92).

[eliakon]

@eliakon
The fact that a Telepathic Language has to be established shows that telepahy is not usable as a form of universal communication, even among telepaths. Which does make sense given that languages have their own rules and organization that differ from one language to the next.

But that does NOT mean that you can only use telepathy with beings that HAVE language.
There is a HUGE difference.
There is a massive difference between saying "Telepathy only tranfers thoughts in languages" and "Telepathy only works for people who speak languages"
The first means that if I teach my horse commands in English... that I can send those commands by either speaking them, or sending them telepathically
The second means that I can only speak them.

Now some creatures that possess Telepathy might have a variant of the power that allows them a much wider scope than the baseline power. We know variants exist with different scopes. The Baseline Psi-Sword has variant in the CK OCC, the Amaki Duelist CC, the Psi-Dagger (Psycape), and IINM the Psi-Tomahawk (Spirit West). A Burster's Pyrokensis is different than the baseline version. Bio-regeneration has normal and super versions (and some classes have their own form). There are races with Telekinetic-type powers and ectoplasm at zero or no cost, even Telemechanic-type powers. The Operator if they select Object Read has a different form of the baseline power (RMB pg78, RUE pg92).

This is utterly irrelevant.
The simple fact is that there are animals with Telepathy. They canonically do NOT have a variant. Now sure, you can make a house rule that they have a different kind of Telepathy so that you can house rule how telepathy works for your game... but that is pure house rule layered on house rule.
In canon, animals can, and do, have telepathy.

Even MORE to the point Lemuria makes pains to tell us that telepathy is what is used to communicate with the various biomancy constructs... which are of 'animal' and 'plant' intelligence. The Sea Doctor is explicitly mentioned as being of animal intelligence, but that you can talk to it with telepathy ("normal Telepathy cn be used, simply asking for more help is sufficient)).

The canon is thus pretty clear... telepathy can, and is, used on and by animals all the time.

[ShadowLogan]

But that does NOT mean that you can only use telepathy with beings that HAVE language.
There is a HUGE difference.
There is a massive difference between saying "Telepathy only tranfers thoughts in languages" and "Telepathy only works for people who speak languages"
The first means that if I teach my horse commands in English... that I can send those commands by either speaking them, or sending them telepathically
The second means that I can only speak them.

You can certainly send a telepathic message, or even use it to pickup surface thoughts. That is not the issue, the issue comes when it is time to interpret the relayed telepathic information. That is when language comes into play, without it you really can not be sure that the proper meaning is being discerned.

Just what form does the telepathic information take? Words? Images? Some type of funky music/sound? Sensations?

The Telepathic Language Skill establishes that telepathy is not some type of universal translator, otherwise it wouldn't need to be a select-able skill because any telepath could send a message and know they could be properly understood. The description of the psychic power doesn't say that it can be used for universal communication either.

[eliakon]

But that does NOT mean that you can only use telepathy with beings that HAVE language.
There is a HUGE difference.
There is a massive difference between saying "Telepathy only tranfers thoughts in languages" and "Telepathy only works for people who speak languages"
The first means that if I teach my horse commands in English... that I can send those commands by either speaking them, or sending them telepathically
The second means that I can only speak them.

You can certainly send a telepathic message, or even use it to pickup surface thoughts. That is not the issue, the issue comes when it is time to interpret the relayed telepathic information. That is when language comes into play, without it you really can not be sure that the proper meaning is being discerned.

Just what form does the telepathic information take? Words? Images? Some type of funky music/sound? Sensations?

The Telepathic Language Skill establishes that telepathy is not some type of universal translator, otherwise it wouldn't need to be a select-able skill because any telepath could send a message and know they could be properly understood. The description of the psychic power doesn't say that it can be used for universal communication either.

Yeesssss your point is?
No really the point of this is?
No one except you is talking about universal translators. That's your own personal Windmill/Strawman.
What I was saying, and have been the entire time, is that telepathy can be used to communicate with animals the same as spoken languages can.
Thus a telepath can give their horse a command to "giddyap" or "whoah" or what ever else they have been trained to respond to just as easily with vocal words as telepathically.

As for the argument that telepathy is in some sort of funky sesation... that would pretty clearly conflict with the power itself. There is nothing whatsoever in the power inplying that it is not instantly and automatically comprehensiable by others (language aside)... now sure a GM can make up a house rule on the subject but that would be a total house rule with less than no canon support.

[Axelmania]

Can I breed bionic horses? I imagine bionic legs wouldn't interfere (might even make bearing pregnancy weight easier?) but torso modifications seem potentially problematic for gestation.

[ShadowLogan]

Can I breed bionic horses? I imagine bionic legs wouldn't interfere (might even make bearing pregnancy weight easier?) but torso modifications seem potentially problematic for gestation.

Cyber-Centaurs would suggests issues:
When talking about Cyber-Horsewomen "Instead, opting for cybernetic implants to augment their senses and partial bionics to reinforce and strengthen their lower bodies. A large reason for this is birth considerations. Most Cyber-Horsewomen prefer to give natural birth, something made impossible with a radical amount of bionic reconstruction."-WB20 Canada pg105 (likely also found in RCB1r and WB30 entries for the Cyber-Horseman but I haven't looked at theme). This doesn't even consider the male aspect with it suggested males won't commit to a full bionic conversion until after raising a family (pg104).

So it would depend on the amount of bionic reconstruction, but I'm not sure what traits you would be breeding for.

Yeesssss your point is?
No really the point of this is?
No one except you is talking about universal translators. That's your own personal Windmill/Strawman.
What I was saying, and have been the entire time, is that telepathy can be used to communicate with animals the same as spoken languages can.
Thus a telepath can give their horse a command to "giddyap" or "whoah" or what ever else they have been trained to respond to just as easily with vocal words as telepathically.

My Point is that what ever information is sent/received via telepathy requires language to interpret. Nothing indicates you can send/receive a telepathic message and be automatically understood or even comprehended. The only thing that would be automatic in the situation is that the message would be perceived (short of a Mind Block).

Do we even know how that telepathic information is perceived? Do they hear words, get mental images, some other sensory input or perception?

Though this is getting off topic.

[taalismn]

[
So it would depend on the amount of bionic reconstruction, but I'm not sure what traits you would be breeding for.

Probably not speed or looks...You can breath new life(at least for a while) into a broken down old nag, with enough bionic reconstruction(but would it be worth it? Is there any real data on in-book on how bionic conversion affects a horse's lifespan?).
Still, for folks more used to simply killing(and probably eating) a lamed animal, bionics presents a more humane(if expensive) alternative. And you can cover a lot of physical deficiencies with the right implants.
So what would you be breeding for? Rude health and endurance, to fight disease. Temperment, so your bionic horse doesn't buck at the slightest sound and send you flying or trample you, intelligence so you can better train your horse to do various things.

[eliakon]

Though this is getting off topic.

Indeed.
Thus I will be moving further discussion to

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=155773

[Blue_Lion]

Spoiler:

Neither of them is better.
It is simply that they both have advantages and disadvantages and that the user needs to decide what is best for their particular needs.

Cost is a huge issue for most people, as most people don't simply get to take the most expensive items possible just because they want them. PCs during character creation are exceptions to normal economic factors

Cyberknights and the like are likely to have telepathy... which they can use to communicate with an animal

Robots are harder to steal in some ways, and easier in others. After all someone with machine psi powers can easily take control of a robot and reprogram it. It is a LOT harder to 'reprogram' a trained animal.

On the flip side a robot horse can be more heavily armed, and can act as a guard. They also don't need food and such so they are more 'fuel efficient'

So basically... a person will pick the one that fits their particular needs, desires, and situation.

And a person with spells or psi to control animals could do so to a regular horse as well as a normal thief steeling it. Basically yes with the right powers you could still a robot horse, but any one that knows how to handle horses can steal a normal/robot horse.

Not exactly...
Trained animals are a LOT harder to steal. Simply being qualified to handle horses does not mean your going to be able to steal a trained one. Animal control abilities are a bit rarer. Psi stalker and the like animal powers are a gray area with some GMs ruling that they override training and such and some not...

Can telepathy communicate with an animal that has no language? that does seam outside the power.

I don't see the slightest reason why not.
The power doesn't say anything about language at all in its description so adding that limitation to it would be a house rule as far as I can tell.
This is reinforced by the fact that some of the various animal level intelligences in the game have and use telepathy.
If the animal can understand human speech said vocally there is no reason to assume it would not understand the same speech telepathically transmitted.

A horses natural psi would be an advantage, cost natural would be cheapest, then bionic then robot.

True... but since the discussion was between Robots and Cyborgs that was the options I was looking at...

I am not saying the a horse borg would not have advantages but they are not always the ones some people are suggesting. In the end what you get comes down to personal choice and budget.

Exactly
At the end of the day every advantage and every disadvantage is situational. There is no such thing as a 'pure' advantage or disadvantage in something like this.
It will heavily depend on the person making the choice, and the world that they are making that choice in. As the way that the GM of the particular game views things will have a massive influence on what you do or do not want.

How many machine PSI powers can reprogram AIs? To my knowledge machine ghost just gets info, and telemecanics affects are limited on AIs. You are presenting them as more common than powers to that affect real creatures. So we are looking at what super psi to steal a robot horse it seams. (yea so much more common than sensory abilties emotions.)

Psi powers like empathic transmission could help in stealing a horse, and there is a race of monster riders that have a natural abilty to connect with any creatures. There are also magical ways to control living things. (once you have the horse it is just a matter of time to get it to accept a new rider even if it is highly trained to only accept one rider.)

The only race I know that can control machines is the machine man from phase world, but I know several races have the abilty to get animals to trust them.

I think by trained you are only including to highly trained selecive rider horses and even those can be stolen by people with training in horses. (So special training for the horse to make it hard to steal because those are the common horses , a horse with basic training for mount and combat where stolen all the time in the west.) And because they have that level of training are worth the effort you just need to train them to accept a new rider.

Compartivly a robot horse would not let just any one access its computer system. (Basically you need some one with a machine psi power that can reprogram AIs, but you claim it is more common than people to be able to steal living/borg horses.)

*I would also say that your term comunicate implies a two exchange of information. So it is reasonable that people thaght you where impling that it allowed that type of comunication with animals. Perhaps the word command would have been more apropate choice to get your intended point acrossed. The way you worded I took it as you saying they had 2 way exchange of information telepathically.

[Axelmania]

Can I breed bionic horses? I imagine bionic legs wouldn't interfere (might even make bearing pregnancy weight easier?) but torso modifications seem potentially problematic for gestation.

Cyber-Centaurs would suggests issues:
When talking about Cyber-Horsewomen "Instead, opting for cybernetic implants to augment their senses and partial bionics to reinforce and strengthen their lower bodies. A large reason for this is birth considerations. Most Cyber-Horsewomen prefer to give natural birth, something made impossible with a radical amount of bionic reconstruction."-WB20 Canada pg105 (likely also found in RCB1r and WB30 entries for the Cyber-Horseman but I haven't looked at theme). This doesn't even consider the male aspect with it suggested males won't commit to a full bionic conversion until after raising a family (pg104).

So it would depend on the amount of bionic reconstruction, but I'm not sure what traits you would be breeding for.

Any guidelines somewhere as to what's considered a "radical" amount of bionic reconstruction? This does seem to imply that SOME level of bionic reconstruction is non-radical. "Partial bionics" sounds like partial conversion, so maybe only 'full conversion' makes them incapable of giving natural birth?

This also makes me wonder what is meant by "natural birth" too. Would a full conversion centauress still be able to have a non-natural birth like a Caesarian section?

[ShadowLogan]

AFAIK there are 3 levels of Bionic augmentation (From the Bionics SB):
1. Isolated Bionic Augmentation (minor reconstruction: an internal organ or a few bionic implants. Can include ONE limb): pg60-1
2. Partial Reconstruction (which involves reinforcing the hip/pelvis): pg71
3. Full Reconstruction (over 90% machine): pg77

Based on the above partial reconstruction would qualify as "radical", and given the reinforcement of the hip/pelvis would be an issue with natural birth (IINM). And by natural birth I assume they mean as their non-augmented counterparts (w/o complications).

I do not think a full conversion borg, in general would even be viable for Caesarean Section. There are a few races where the borg body would be designed with species propagation in mind I think, but given text about the Cyber-Centaurs I do not think they are one of them.

[Axelmania]

Pelvic reinforcement would only seem like an issue if it somehow narrowed the birth canal. If it was external armor only I don't really see what the issue would be.

Given that full conversion probably removes the lower spine and entire pelvis, it would probably remove or substitute a lot of stuff like the large/small intestines, so probably the womb as well, unless you did some kind of custom build where cyborgs had artificial wombs built inside them.

[taalismn]

Pelvic reinforcement would only seem like an issue if it somehow narrowed the birth canal. If it was external armor only I don't really see what the issue would be.

Given that full conversion probably removes the lower spine and entire pelvis, it would probably remove or substitute a lot of stuff like the large/small intestines, so probably the womb as well, unless you did some kind of custom build where cyborgs had artificial wombs built inside them.

(sound of truck backing up beep-beep-beep)
"-and this is our new semi-autonomous biomechanical animal husbandry unit. Or maybe it's a wet-matrix cellular 3d printer. Point is, we can make horses with it. Any kind of horse, as long as we have the starter DNA and the gestation data."

[shadrak]

Benefit of a bionic horse:

1. Extends the life of your pre-existing mount.

2. Harder to telemecha.ically possess.

And both bionic in a robotic would probably have benefits over organic by being less susceptible to psionic and magical attacks

[kaid]

Benefit of a bionic horse:

1. Extends the life of your pre-existing mount.

2. Harder to telemecha.ically possess.

And both bionic in a robotic would probably have benefits over organic by being less susceptible to psionic and magical attacks

Downside vulnerable to animal empathy and spells to control/manipulate animals. Both are almost equally vulnerable to external control but to different flavors of similar abilities.

[shadrak]

Benefit of a bionic horse:

1. Extends the life of your pre-existing mount.

2. Harder to telemecha.ically possess.

And both bionic in a robotic would probably have benefits over organic by being less susceptible to psionic and magical attacks

Downside vulnerable to animal empathy and spells to control/manipulate animals. Both are almost equally vulnerable to external control but to different flavors of similar abilities.

True...

But if you are playing against a GM that is a power gamer himself, he probably builds his NPCs with telemechanic possession over empathy.

Though, since you point it out...I will have to remember to include those capabilities for use against players that utilize real animals....

MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I guess you just need to get Bob shot up and then tell him the only bionic body you could find him was a horse...

Human intelligence and capabilities...a borg...resistant to both!

Though, if I were stuck in a horse's body I would probably need to roll to save vs insanity every week.

[Blue_Lion]

Benefit of a bionic horse:

1. Extends the life of your pre-existing mount.

2. Harder to telemecha.ically possess.

And both bionic in a robotic would probably have benefits over organic by being less susceptible to psionic and magical attacks

Downside vulnerable to animal empathy and spells to control/manipulate animals. Both are almost equally vulnerable to external control but to different flavors of similar abilities.

True...

But if you are playing against a GM that is a power gamer himself, he probably builds his NPCs with telemechanic possession over empathy.

Though, since you point it out...I will have to remember to include those capabilities for use against players that utilize real animals....

MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I guess you just need to get Bob shot up and then tell him the only bionic body you could find him was a horse...

Human intelligence and capabilities...a borg...resistant to both!

Though, if I were stuck in a horse's body I would probably need to roll to save vs insanity every week.

Honestly in games I have played do not think telemechanic possession was ever a standard npc power. I have seen some power gamer GM but never was that a standard power.
Also there is a cyber implant from japan that lets you seize control of another person bionics. Not sure if it is compatible with a bionic horse.)

[shadrak]

Really, no telemechanic possession?


It's really good for making a Pc's superweapon fail...or to have his AI robot turn on him...

I think it predated the spell enemy mind, too...so it was one of the first ways I encountered GMs sowing chaos in my player group.

Any time the group encountered an NPC with super psionics, you knew it was coming