Pre-Rifts Survivors

[RockJock]

So lots of groups in Rifts Earth have ties, or connections to the Golden Age, but I'm trying to come up with who really has a direct connection, and is FROM pre-rifts earth.


New Navy (Some children of survivors still alive as Sea Titans)
Tundra Rangers(zapped forward)
Archie 3 (still kicking)
Republic of Japan/Ichto (whole thing zapped forward)
AIs in Australia and on the Moon, but they are on the edge of counting in my book.
Mindwerks (at least the first Angel)
Megaveral Legion (sorta)


Who/what else? I am sure there are dragons, True Atlanteans and so on that popped onto Earth early on.

[HarleeKnight]

WB 13 - Lonestar, pg. 145; Sundance

[kaid]

Possibly some full conversion borgs in places like triax or sovietski. With proper equipment full conversion borgs can live a really long time.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Possibly some full conversion borgs in places like triax or sovietski. With proper equipment full conversion borgs can live a really long time.

Ermm.. not nearly that long. Mindwerks makes that abundantly clear; the Angel of Death had to develop specific implants to keep the brain from deteriorating - with that tiny side affect of “drives you insane”.

The Brain starts to break down after the 150-year mark, if im not mistaken (i beleive it was covered in Mindwerks as well).

[Books]

The only two I could think of with a direct connection to the Golden Age is The Dreamer from Mercenaries and Diablo Joe from the Black Market. The Dreamer has been on Earth since the time of the Roman Empire; She's one of the few living witnesses to the coming of the Rifts, something which she refuses to talk about. Diablo Joe is a Full Conversion Borg the Black Market found while they were exploring Aera 51; He has memories of Pre-Rifts North America but they're spotty.

[Zer0 Kay]

Arent some of the Republican forces cryo stored... no that's the troops in Archie's cryo.

[eliakon]

So lots of groups in Rifts Earth have ties, or connections to the Golden Age, but I'm trying to come up with who really has a direct connection, and is FROM pre-rifts earth.


New Navy (Some children of survivors still alive as Sea Titans)
Tundra Rangers(zapped forward)
Archie 3 (still kicking)
Republic of Japan/Ichto (whole thing zapped forward)
AIs in Australia and on the Moon, but they are on the edge of counting in my book.
Mindwerks (at least the first Angel)
Megaveral Legion (sorta)


Who/what else? I am sure there are dragons, True Atlanteans and so on that popped onto Earth early on.

-Well right off the Bat... Victor Lazlo

-Well apparently Pharaoh Rama Set and Lo-Fung both were active on pre-rifts Earth.

-The Inca Undead were all from the first Inca empire...

-For an interesting take.... There are literally billions of Chinese Dead & Damned which include, as far as I can tell, everyone who died in the Cataclysm and after.

-It is possible that some of the Native American shamans would have survived (Plant Shamans for example can live hundreds of years). As there were zillions of Native American Pure Ones off in the gods pocket dimension untill the Cataclysm...

-That city of True Atlantians in South America is full of super long lived people... who had to rift in during the cataclysm (and had had links to the Earth long before at least up until the 1500s or so.)

[RockJock]

The Chinese, or even Inca dead are not what I'm looking for. To be honest, Victor Lazlo, the Sundance Kid, and even the Megaversal Legion, aren't "really" pre-rift chracters.

[Zer0 Kay]

The Chinese, or even Inca dead are not what I'm looking for. To be honest, Victor Lazlo, the Sundance Kid, and even the Megaversal Legion, aren't "really" pre-rift chracters.

What? How do you mean their not "really"?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The Chinese, or even Inca dead are not what I'm looking for. To be honest, Victor Lazlo, the Sundance Kid, and even the Megaversal Legion, aren't "really" pre-rift chracters.

Lazlo absolutely is. Even if he isnt from “the” Pre-Rifts Earth, hes from one that was nearly identical, enough so that its not a particularly relevant difference.

The other two... /shrug.

Or are you going for “lived through the Cataclysm”/Chaos Earth types?

[Curbludgeon]

WB 24 has totals of 104.3 million dead/damned, including the terracotta warriors.

[RockJock]

The not really for the ML fits Victor Lazo, or Sundance as well. They are from some time before the Rifts, but they weren't living in the Golden Age right before, and somehow survive.

[eliakon]

The Chinese, or even Inca dead are not what I'm looking for. To be honest, Victor Lazlo, the Sundance Kid, and even the Megaversal Legion, aren't "really" pre-rift chracters.

Then what are you looking FOR?
I assumed that by pre-rifts you meant "people who were born before the rifts"
If that is not what you are looking for *shrugs* I can adjust fire and find people that mesh better. But it isn't clear what you are looking for so it makes it hard to find them.

[RockJock]

People who lived in the Golden Age and are still around in Rifts.

The Republic of Japan, Tundra Rangers, and at least part of Mindwerks fit that exactly. The original Sea Titans from New Navy are on peripheral. I'm sure there are others that I am missing, perhaps some of the original Neo Humans? Some of the True Incas would definitely fit.

Victor Lazlo and the Megaversal Legion are more 20th, or early 21st century instead of Golden Age, with Sundance definitely being 19th century. Does anyone remember anybody like True Atlanteans, or even specific dragons(who could easily be around) being mentioned as survivors?

[eliakon]

People who lived in the Golden Age and are still around in Rifts.

The Republic of Japan, Tundra Rangers, and at least part of Mindwerks fit that exactly. The original Sea Titans from New Navy are on peripheral. I'm sure there are others that I am missing, perhaps some of the original Neo Humans? Some of the True Incas would definitely fit.

Victor Lazlo and the Megaversal Legion are more 20th, or early 21st century instead of Golden Age, with Sundance definitely being 19th century. Does anyone remember anybody like True Atlanteans, or even specific dragons(who could easily be around) being mentioned as survivors?

Ah, okay that narrows it down a bit.
Lo Fung and Rama-Set were both explicitly active on earth, for centuries. As such they would have been active during the golden age.

Some of the Chinese Dead and Damned would still fit as it does seem to include the entire population of Golden Age China.

Assuming that any of the golden age Native Americans became shammans during the cataclysim there could still be plant shamans around.

Yolanda from the Kingsdale Magic guild is a pre-rifts Nightbane who lived through the cataclysm. Based on that and the Dark Converions canonization of there being Nightbane on Rifts Earth we can safely assume that any manifested Nightbane would still be around.

Davey Jones has been active in Rifts Earth since the goden age of piracy (1500s or so) continuasly to the modern day

Litterally every pantheon ever worshiped on Earth would probably qualify

There will be vast numbers of Pucara Red Giants who lived as the race has a 600 year life span... so all the children up to middle aged individuals would remember the cataclysm.

The Spirit Sasquatch are all immortal and thus would have lived in the golden age (albeit as forest dwelling hermits)

Manoa. While the city itself rifted out to avoid the Conquistitdors they explicitly left portals behind so that they could continue to visit and interact with their world of birth. Portals that were active all the way up until the cataclysm. As such many of its inhabitants are likely to have visited the Earth and be more than passing familiar with it.

Thats all I can think of off the top of my head. I'll add to the list if I come across others.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

People who lived in the Golden Age and are still around in Rifts.

The Republic of Japan, Tundra Rangers, and at least part of Mindwerks fit that exactly. The original Sea Titans from New Navy are on peripheral. I'm sure there are others that I am missing, perhaps some of the original Neo Humans? Some of the True Incas would definitely fit.

Victor Lazlo and the Megaversal Legion are more 20th, or early 21st century instead of Golden Age, with Sundance definitely being 19th century. Does anyone remember anybody like True Atlanteans, or even specific dragons(who could easily be around) being mentioned as survivors?

Ah, okay that narrows it down a bit.
Lo Fung and Rama-Set were both explicitly active on earth, for centuries. As such they would have been active during the golden age.

Some of the Chinese Dead and Damned would still fit as it does seem to include the entire population of Golden Age China.

Assuming that any of the golden age Native Americans became shammans during the cataclysim there could still be plant shamans around.

Yolanda from the Kingsdale Magic guild is a pre-rifts Nightbane who lived through the cataclysm. Based on that and the Dark Converions canonization of there being Nightbane on Rifts Earth we can safely assume that any manifested Nightbane would still be around.

Davey Jones has been active in Rifts Earth since the goden age of piracy (1500s or so) continuasly to the modern day

Litterally every pantheon ever worshiped on Earth would probably qualify

There will be vast numbers of Pucara Red Giants who lived as the race has a 600 year life span... so all the children up to middle aged individuals would remember the cataclysm.

The Spirit Sasquatch are all immortal and thus would have lived in the golden age (albeit as forest dwelling hermits)

Manoa. While the city itself rifted out to avoid the Conquistitdors they explicitly left portals behind so that they could continue to visit and interact with their world of birth. Portals that were active all the way up until the cataclysm. As such many of its inhabitants are likely to have visited the Earth and be more than passing familiar with it.

Thats all I can think of off the top of my head. I'll add to the list if I come across others.

Good list. How long do Rahu-men live? There is a society of them in the Himalayas dating back many hundreds of years. Not sure how long lived they are, though.

[Curbludgeon]

Some of the Chinese Dead and Damned would still fit as it does seem to include the entire population of Golden Age China.

It very much does not. Putting aside Chinese population projections for 2098, Rifts China is a hamfisted interpretation of Diyu, within which souls are reincarnated. There are express statements about damned being reborn, e.g. the population description for the first hell. That said, a great many of the damned currently in that state have been so since 2098, although it is left unclear how many were dead since before the Cataclysm, and most would only be able to access their memories of such while being tormented. Additionally, Chinese demons are often taken from the ranks of the damned, with varying access to their previous life. Several Taoist Immortals are described as being around pre-Cataclysm as well.

[eliakon]

Some of the Chinese Dead and Damned would still fit as it does seem to include the entire population of Golden Age China.

It very much does not. Putting aside Chinese population projections for 2098, Rifts China is a hamfisted interpretation of Diyu, within which souls are reincarnated. There are express statements about damned being reborn, e.g. the population description for the first hell. That said, a great many of the damned currently in that state have been so since 2098, although it is left unclear how many were dead since before the Cataclysm, and most would only be able to access their memories of such while being tormented. Additionally, Chinese demons are often taken from the ranks of the damned, with varying access to their previous life. Several Taoist Immortals are described as being around pre-Cataclysm as well.

The problem there is that
1) we are flat out TOLD that the reincarnation system is 'off line'...heck the goddess in charge of it is mentioned as sitting there basically twiddling her thumbs. So that removes reincarnation as a place to put them.
2) there is no game mechanical way to turn a human soul into a demon. Into a 'dead and damned' sure... but they are not turned into demons. Unless there is something I missed in the book you can't become a demon.

But that is a good catch on the Immortals.

[eliakon]

Good list. How long do Rahu-men live? There is a society of them in the Himalayas dating back many hundreds of years. Not sure how long lived they are, though.

Rahu-Men have an average lifespan of 1000 years. So they go on the list too.

[Curbludgeon]

1) we are flat out TOLD that the reincarnation system is 'off line'...heck the goddess in charge of it is mentioned as sitting there basically twiddling her thumbs. So that removes reincarnation as a place to put them.

I'm going to need a quote on that, because I'm doing text searches on the pdf to little avail. By "goddess in charge of it" I currently assume you mean Lady Meng of the Terrace of Oblivion (pg 48), and while the location is described as fairly remote the Brew of Oblivion is in no way described as necessary to reincarnation. Also, the population description for the first hell says that some of the the original dead and damned have been reborn. Given the population of Rifts China (43M+humans, ~104M dead, <2M d-bee, ~5.75M demons) one might make an argument for while a majority of the dead are culled from recent humans, some of the dead could be pre- to immediately post-Cataclysm. To argue that the entirety of Golden Age China's people are dead/damned is being willfully innumerate.

2)Unless there is something I missed in the book you can't become a demon.

It's a bit of a stretch: Pg 20 (13 million dead and damned (including all varieties of ghosts and goblins)). So not demons, but goblins can arguably come from human stock.

[eliakon]

1) we are flat out TOLD that the reincarnation system is 'off line'...heck the goddess in charge of it is mentioned as sitting there basically twiddling her thumbs. So that removes reincarnation as a place to put them.

I'm going to need a quote on that, because I'm doing text searches on the pdf to little avail. By "goddess in charge of it" I currently assume you mean Lady Meng of the Terrace of Oblivion (pg 48), and while the location is described as fairly remote the Brew of Oblivion is in no way described as necessary to reincarnation.

Considering that it is explicitly stated as "all in preparation for the souls of the dead or damned to be reborn"... then I would say that yes, yes it is a necessary step. Unless you have a book citation that says otherwise. Like I said, I can't find anything on the subject.

Also, the population description for the first hell says that some of the the original dead and damned have been reborn. Given the population of Rifts China (43M+humans, ~104M dead, <2M d-bee, ~5.75M demons) one might make an argument for while a majority of the dead are culled from recent humans, some of the dead could be pre- to immediately post-Cataclysm. To argue that the entirety of Golden Age China's people are dead/damned is being willfully innumerate. [/quote]
What? A Pallidum book has no comprehension of numbers?
I'm gobsmacked
Of course the population numbers are messed up. Just like the distances are messed up. I take all numbers with an entire salt lick
And I will also note that souls in Palladium are NOT immortal. You can permanently destroy souls quite easily. So 300 or so years of predation will significantly lower the population totals.

2)Unless there is something I missed in the book you can't become a demon.

It's a bit of a stretch: Pg 20 (13 million dead and damned (including all varieties of ghosts and goblins)). So not demons, but goblins can arguably come from human stock.

Ummm, Ghosts? Remember "Ghostas & Goblins" is a category. Of that.... well humans become ghosts...
Again, unless there is specific text that states that souls can be changed into a different type of being...

[Curbludgeon]

1) we are flat out TOLD that the reincarnation system is 'off line'

I'm still going to need a quote on that. It is otherwise somewhere between personal headcanon, which I have less than zero interest in, and a lie.

WB 24 does not detail the exact process of reincarnation, thankfully. There are examples given of specific actions often taken in that process, but whether a given action is a necessary condition of reincarnation is left ambiguous. "(I)n preparation for the souls of the dead or damned to be reborn" does not mean that literally every soul must undergo this step. Pg. 12 clearly states that some number of souls have been reborn post-Cataclysm.

There are(emphasis mine) literally billions of Chinese Dead & Damned which include, as far as I can tell, everyone who died in the Cataclysm and after.

What? A Pallidum(sic) book has no comprehension of numbers?
I'm gobsmacked
Of course the population numbers are messed up. Just like the distances are messed up. I take all numbers with an entire salt lick
And I will also note that souls in Palladium are NOT immortal. You can permanently destroy souls quite easily. So 300 or so years of predation will significantly lower the population totals.

See above re:headcanon. Your propensity for shifting goalpoasts has also been noted. I suspect you are not arguing in good faith, and a cursory search of post history lends massive credence to this.

Pg. 20 (13 million dead and damned (including all varieties of ghosts and goblins)). So not demons, but goblins can arguably come from human stock.

Ummm, Ghosts? Remember "Ghostas(sic) & Goblins" is a category. Of that.... well humans become ghosts...
Again, unless there is specific text that states that souls can be changed into a different type of being...

The distributive property would suggest the above quote counts all varieties of ghosts and goblins among the dead and damned. Whether or not the text bothers to expound on how or why they count among such is irrelevant. Note that the population numbers given are only ever for humans, dead, d-bees, and demons(which are separate from goblins, and which I first misstated were capable of having previously being humans). In that most other references to the damned involve their having bodies, it is perhaps best to chalk this up as a typo, if for no other reason than to partially account for the many billion discrepancy between the number of damned and the number that have died as being the vast number of ghosts potentially inhabiting the mists.

[eliakon]

1) we are flat out TOLD that the reincarnation system is 'off line'

I'm still going to need a quote on that. It is otherwise somewhere between personal headcanon, which I have less than zero interest in, and a lie.

WB 24 does not detail the exact process of reincarnation, thankfully. There are examples given of specific actions often taken in that process, but whether a given action is a necessary condition of reincarnation is left ambiguous. "(I)n preparation for the souls of the dead or damned to be reborn" does not mean that literally every soul must undergo this step. Pg. 12 clearly states that some number of souls have been reborn post-Cataclysm.

A preparatory step is a stage in doing something.
You can not do something if you have not done the preparations.
The fact that some people are being reincarnated does not mean that everyone is. Just that some (small) number of souls have been properly referred, dosed, and reincarnated.
Unless there is something somewhere that says that you do NOT need to follow the listed step (which has drinking the elixir as a preparation) then it seems we should assume that they do.
While page 12 says that some of the souls have left to be reborn... that does not mean that they did not follow the procedure aka they were sent to Lady Wang, who gave them the elixir.
Since she is said to be no longer doing this as the Yama Kings are no longer sending her souls...
I will further note that it does not say WHEN they were reborn, and in fact those reborn were original inhabitants and not ones that post date the cataclysm.

There are(emphasis mine) literally billions of Chinese Dead & Damned which include, as far as I can tell, everyone who died in the Cataclysm and after.

What? A Pallidum(sic) book has no comprehension of numbers?
I'm gobsmacked
Of course the population numbers are messed up. Just like the distances are messed up. I take all numbers with an entire salt lick
And I will also note that souls in Palladium are NOT immortal. You can permanently destroy souls quite easily. So 300 or so years of predation will significantly lower the population totals.

See above re:headcanon. Your propensity for shifting goalpoasts has also been noted. I suspect you are not arguing in good faith, and a cursory search of post history lends massive credence to this.

Personal attacks aside... I am not shifting anything.
We have the populations of the specific zones. Nothing more.
Unless there is a population total that I missed for places such as the Yin-Caves, or the Mists, or the like...
So we have the population of a part of China.
Since Ghosts are dead and damned, and as far as I can tell anyone who dies in China becomes a Dead & Damned...
...then we have to have billions of D&D somewhere.

Pg. 20 (13 million dead and damned (including all varieties of ghosts and goblins)). So not demons, but goblins can arguably come from human stock.

Ummm, Ghosts? Remember "Ghostas(sic) & Goblins" is a category. Of that.... well humans become ghosts...
Again, unless there is specific text that states that souls can be changed into a different type of being...

The distributive property would suggest the above quote counts all varieties of ghosts and goblins among the dead and damned. Whether or not the text bothers to expound on how or why they count among such is irrelevant. Note that the population numbers given are only ever for humans, dead, d-bees, and demons(which are separate from goblins, and which I first misstated were capable of having previously being humans). In that most other references to the damned involve their having bodies, it is perhaps best to chalk this up as a typo, if for no other reason than to partially account for the many billion discrepancy between the number of damned and the number that have died as being the vast number of ghosts potentially inhabiting the mists.

Again no.
Humans are in a group called "Ghosts and Goblins"
It does not mean that you are both.
That is how something in that group is NOT both a ghost and a goblin which would be the result if we assumed the 'transitive property'.
Ghosts are ghosts, goblins are goblins and both fall in the category of "ghosts and goblins"
Now if there is some actual text somewhere that tells us that you can turn a human into a goblin I would be fascinated. Otherwise they are races of supernatural beings in and of them selves. Especially since page 74 explicitly states "They are not ghosts of the dead." (emphasis theirs)

So we have the following fates for all of the humans in Golden Age China
1) Still alive
2) Corporal Dead and Damned
3) Ghost Dead and Damned
4) Souls that were obliterated.
5) The potential that some small number may have been reincarnated before the Yama Kings stopped sending Lady Wang souls.

EDIT: this all said... perhaps it might be best to split this off into its own thread so as to avoid hijacking the original posters question with a tangential discussion

[Curbludgeon]

EDIT: this all said... perhaps it might be best to split this off into its own thread so as to avoid hijacking the original posters question with a tangential discussion

I was about to go along with this, until I saw it wasn't an edit made by a mod, but a use of the edit tag.

[eliakon]

Did a double check on the Neo-Humans.
It says that everyone of them that hasn't died of violence is still around...
So yes indeedy they go on the list.
A thought occurred to me as well. Since Dark Conversions and Yolanda demonstrate that there are Nightbane and such... then there could very well be Guardians/Dopplegangers/Athanos/whatever running around. Also Astral Mages/Lords could survive in their Astral Domains due to the 'no aging' thing.

I believe that some of the books claim that there were vampires (if very few) on Pre-Rifts earth so that is another possibility.

[Nightmask]

Did a double check on the Neo-Humans.
It says that everyone of them that hasn't died of violence is still around...
So yes indeedy they go on the list.
A thought occurred to me as well. Since Dark Conversions and Yolanda demonstrate that there are Nightbane and such... then there could very well be Guardians/Dopplegangers/Athanos/whatever running around. Also Astral Mages/Lords could survive in their Astral Domains due to the 'no aging' thing.

I believe that some of the books claim that there were vampires (if very few) on Pre-Rifts earth so that is another possibility.

The Dreamer from Rifts: Mercenaries and her people were around prior to the Rifts (in fact it explicitly notes she was so traumatized by the event she simply won't talk about it), plus Victor Lazlo is from Pre-Rifts Earth and simply got rifted forward in time. One Old West outlaw was also rifted forwards (can't remember if it was Billy the Kid, Sundance, or one of the others famous from that time period).

[RockJock]

One day recently several of us were talking about the Republican's Popsicle Army, and how it being woken seems to be in writing now. That led to the possibility of Pre-Rift survivors knowing each other. Yes, it is kinda far fetched, but the idea of a RCMP(Tundra Ranger) having known a NEMA(frozen Army) member isn't all that improbably. Similar with some of the survivors in the Republic of Japan and New Navy. The latter pairing is much less likely since only a handful of old Sea Titans are still around, but they could at least have people they knew in common.

The thought of doing a sort of Chaos Earth to Rifts game, or maybe a deep in the Dark Ages game came out of that.

[eliakon]

One day recently several of us were talking about the Republican's Popsicle Army, and how it being woken seems to be in writing now. That led to the possibility of Pre-Rift survivors knowing each other. Yes, it is kinda far fetched, but the idea of a RCMP(Tundra Ranger) having known a NEMA(frozen Army) member isn't all that improbably. Similar with some of the survivors in the Republic of Japan and New Navy. The latter pairing is much less likely since only a handful of old Sea Titans are still around, but they could at least have people they knew in common.

The thought of doing a sort of Chaos Earth to Rifts game, or maybe a deep in the Dark Ages game came out of that.

That... That is a fantastic idea.
I wish I had thought of it.
I may though be forced to errrrr "borrow" it.

[RockJock]

Go for it!

[Fell]

Am actively writing Rifts Dark Age Book. Will be submitting it to PB by end of summer. It covers the Two Hundred Years Dark Age, between Chaos Earth and Rifts.

[glitterboy2098]

One day recently several of us were talking about the Republican's Popsicle Army, and how it being woken seems to be in writing now. That led to the possibility of Pre-Rift survivors knowing each other. Yes, it is kinda far fetched, but the idea of a RCMP(Tundra Ranger) having known a NEMA(frozen Army) member isn't all that improbably. Similar with some of the survivors in the Republic of Japan and New Navy. The latter pairing is much less likely since only a handful of old Sea Titans are still around, but they could at least have people they knew in common.

The thought of doing a sort of Chaos Earth to Rifts game, or maybe a deep in the Dark Ages game came out of that.

That... That is a fantastic idea.
I wish I had thought of it.
I may though be forced to errrrr "borrow" it.

actually with the upper officer ranks it seems probable that they at least had heard of each other.. a NEMA officer from the east coast would probably have heard of some of the Officer's from the Canadian RCMP department, especially if said officer was involved in some sort of officer exchange training program or major multi-department operation.

and IIRC the frozen army had a lot of NEMA's intelligence personnel, so it is likely they actually had spent time with the different departments and worked with a lot of officers from all over.

another possibility would be to have the brother or father or other-relative of the ancestor of a clan of Descended GB pilots. especially if the person doesn't match up to the legends the family passed down over 300 years.


the New Navy/Republic of Japan thing i agree might be a bit more of a stretch, since IIRC the Sea Titan event occurred well after the first generation of Navy personnel retired.

[RockJock]

As I remember it the Sea Titans were generally going to be the "kids" of the survivors. Sure, there might be an on NCO or two that got zapped into Sea Titans, but they are individuals. That being said, a Pre-Rifts NEMA officer, or Japanese Navy officer is going to recognize the Tico and the Dobson name(Nemo's last name). I know the Tico was suppose to be a secret, but major ship captains tend to be known in certain circles, even if their billet is not.

The original Tundra Rangers have a decent chance of having contacts/friends/relatives in the frozen NEMA army. The TR were basically the Canadian federal police force, so they would work closely with NEMA and Canadian NEMA personnel would have a decent chance of having served in the RCMP at some point, not counting exchanges, training programs etc. Worse case you would have people that knew people in common.

I'm not saying all military/law enforcement know each other, but it is not THAT big a pool, and the higher you go the smaller the pool. They run in the same circles, go to the same colleges, have similar backgrounds, and serve in the same reserve units(NG and Reserves have a lot of cops, EMTs, paramedics, federal law enforcement etc in them).

I really like the Descended GB Clan idea. I could easily see the Republicans, and associated Descended GB families scattered around(heavy in FQ?) being related to the popsicles.

I'm not planning on doing anything all that complicated. Basically have some sort of small connections that start a relationship. I could see the Republicans, NEMA popsicles, and Tundra Rangers sort of networking if you will. These groups are fairly different, with different politics and all that, but I can see how private connections with the TR could influence the popsicles to being more moderate, and not just buying everything the Republicans are selling. You could end up with say Free Quebec being backed by and integrated with the TR, NEMA popsicles, Republicans and Archie resources. Now if you throw in the satellite communication options available to Archie you can stretch this to the Republic of Japan and/or New Navy. Not going to go that far, but I like the idea.

I might also do throw something supernatural into the mix. Maybe someone/something long lived was a pre-rifts connection. A dragon that was stuck on earth years before and blended in, or a True Atlantean or Dreamer who lived among humans in the Golden Age. Who knows.

BTW, I'm not going to have nation building in my games, but I might have small groups coming together that in theory could start the ball rolling. A similar idea could be True Atlanteans, Neo Humans, Dreamers, Sea Titans, Dragons or whatever crossing paths with old allies. Maybe all fighting bloodsuckers in Mexico?

[glitterboy2098]

there is no way that the Ticonderoga was secret pre-rifts. nothing that size (4x bigger than a Nimitz class carrier, and a submarine at that) can be designed, built, and deployed in total secrecy. the public may not have known its full capabilities but that it exists and its general abilities ought to have been public knowledge, because there is no way you can employ the 20,000+ worker's* you'd need to build the thing without knowledge of it getting out. and then crewing it with nearly as may people? forget it.

people wouldn't know how fast or deep it could go, might not know about the active stealth system, might not know the internal layout.. but they'd certainly recognize it.
ditto for the 'secret' new navy bases.. that they existed would have been known pre-rifts. odds are the public might have had an inkling about some of the islands they were on, and enemy government might have known a lot more. because you'd need a lot of workers to build them, and even fi they were all corps of engineers or something, some leaks would occur. but the general public wouldn't know what was in them or how to locate them or how to access them. much like the classified parts of Edwards Air Force Base (aka area 51) or the Greenbrier hotel bunker prior to declassification in 1992.

only in post-rifts times, after so many records were lost, could it go unrecognized for what it is.



* a modern Nimitz class requires nearly 18000 workers to build.. the Tico would probably take even more, especially since it didn't take any less time than a nimitz would, despite the larger size.. Build To Order: One Aircraft Carrier Here's why it takes more than seven years to make the world's most complicated manufactured product.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

there is no way that the Ticonderoga was secret pre-rifts. nothing that size (4x bigger than a Nimitz class carrier, and a submarine at that) can be designed, built, and deployed in total secrecy. the public may not have known its full capabilities but that it exists and its general abilities ought to have been public knowledge, because there is no way you can employ the 20,000+ worker's* you'd need to build the thing without knowledge of it getting out. and then crewing it with nearly as may people? forget it.

people wouldn't know how fast or deep it could go, might not know about the active stealth system, might not know the internal layout.. but they'd certainly recognize it.
ditto for the 'secret' new navy bases.. that they existed would have been known pre-rifts. odds are the public might have had an inkling about some of the islands they were on, and enemy government might have known a lot more. because you'd need a lot of workers to build them, and even fi they were all corps of engineers or something, some leaks would occur. but the general public wouldn't know what was in them or how to locate them or how to access them. much like the classified parts of Edwards Air Force Base (aka area 51) or the Greenbrier hotel bunker prior to declassification in 1992.

only in post-rifts times, after so many records were lost, could it go unrecognized for what it is.



* a modern Nimitz class requires nearly 18000 workers to build.. the Tico would probably take even more, especially since it didn't take any less time than a nimitz would, despite the larger size.. Build To Order: One Aircraft Carrier Here's why it takes more than seven years to make the world's most complicated manufactured product.

Automation, my good man. Remember these military bases (and other military bases in the continental US) have totally automated factories that can build weapons, tanks, robots and power armor.

90% of the construction of the Ticonderoga was probably automated.

[eliakon]

there is no way that the Ticonderoga was secret pre-rifts. nothing that size (4x bigger than a Nimitz class carrier, and a submarine at that) can be designed, built, and deployed in total secrecy. the public may not have known its full capabilities but that it exists and its general abilities ought to have been public knowledge, because there is no way you can employ the 20,000+ worker's* you'd need to build the thing without knowledge of it getting out. and then crewing it with nearly as may people? forget it.

people wouldn't know how fast or deep it could go, might not know about the active stealth system, might not know the internal layout.. but they'd certainly recognize it.
ditto for the 'secret' new navy bases.. that they existed would have been known pre-rifts. odds are the public might have had an inkling about some of the islands they were on, and enemy government might have known a lot more. because you'd need a lot of workers to build them, and even fi they were all corps of engineers or something, some leaks would occur. but the general public wouldn't know what was in them or how to locate them or how to access them. much like the classified parts of Edwards Air Force Base (aka area 51) or the Greenbrier hotel bunker prior to declassification in 1992.

only in post-rifts times, after so many records were lost, could it go unrecognized for what it is.



* a modern Nimitz class requires nearly 18000 workers to build.. the Tico would probably take even more, especially since it didn't take any less time than a nimitz would, despite the larger size.. Build To Order: One Aircraft Carrier Here's why it takes more than seven years to make the world's most complicated manufactured product.

Automation, my good man. Remember these military bases (and other military bases in the continental US) have totally automated factories that can build weapons, tanks, robots and power armor.

90% of the construction of the Ticonderoga was probably automated.

Is there a source for this?
I know that we are told that there are factories out there... but the only automated factory I am aware of was the unique Archie facility...and even that wasn't truly automated totally... it just ended up that way.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

there is no way that the Ticonderoga was secret pre-rifts. nothing that size (4x bigger than a Nimitz class carrier, and a submarine at that) can be designed, built, and deployed in total secrecy. the public may not have known its full capabilities but that it exists and its general abilities ought to have been public knowledge, because there is no way you can employ the 20,000+ worker's* you'd need to build the thing without knowledge of it getting out. and then crewing it with nearly as may people? forget it.

people wouldn't know how fast or deep it could go, might not know about the active stealth system, might not know the internal layout.. but they'd certainly recognize it.
ditto for the 'secret' new navy bases.. that they existed would have been known pre-rifts. odds are the public might have had an inkling about some of the islands they were on, and enemy government might have known a lot more. because you'd need a lot of workers to build them, and even fi they were all corps of engineers or something, some leaks would occur. but the general public wouldn't know what was in them or how to locate them or how to access them. much like the classified parts of Edwards Air Force Base (aka area 51) or the Greenbrier hotel bunker prior to declassification in 1992.

only in post-rifts times, after so many records were lost, could it go unrecognized for what it is.



* a modern Nimitz class requires nearly 18000 workers to build.. the Tico would probably take even more, especially since it didn't take any less time than a nimitz would, despite the larger size.. Build To Order: One Aircraft Carrier Here's why it takes more than seven years to make the world's most complicated manufactured product.

Automation, my good man. Remember these military bases (and other military bases in the continental US) have totally automated factories that can build weapons, tanks, robots and power armor.

90% of the construction of the Ticonderoga was probably automated.

Is there a source for this?
I know that we are told that there are factories out there... but the only automated factory I am aware of was the unique Archie facility...and even that wasn't truly automated totally... it just ended up that way.

Uh, its outright stated in Underseas about the factories on the island bases (built to produce their tanks, Semper-Fi PA, and sea subs) again in Spirit West about the factory at Fort Apache (they literally “turned the factory on and it made USA SAMAS until it ran out of material”), Lone Star’s factories were completely automated (Lone Star) thouh there is no evidence they are used much, if at all, and the factory the Black Market found at Groom Lake was automated to build SAMAS at the very least (though they have since taken control of it to build other stuff; Black Market). And, as of SB1r, those factories in Archie’s complex are completely automated and always were. Archie didnt build new ones or modify them (which is how the Republicans even know how to operate them at all), he simply added stockpiles of material.

[RockJock]

I don't see the Tico really being secret either. When it went to sea trials, or specs and abilities yes, but not the whole thing, just based on size, crew, and infrastructure.