The Godfathers

[iteration27]

so at the moment im examining SI/AIs and gods...ive looked through a number of books and im not entirely sure what to make of their relationship.
It seems clear that AI/SIs are the "apex predator" from what ive read and that they seem to be the oldest beings/races in the megaverse,their origins lost to the tides of time and all that.
gods on the other hand im not so sure about.in some places ive heard them described as actually ancient races of beings,in others that they came into being from mans need for understanding and their combined belief in greater powers.in others ive heard that they were simply created.In conversion book 2 three entire pantheons were created by individual AI/SIs(um sumerian,olympian and babylonian i think).This is printed as fact.the other reasons for their existence(belief and pre existence as a race) seem a bit more vague.
this leads me to believe that the gods (all of them) are actually the creations of these intelligences,even if they dont realize or remember.But then i looked at the intelligences.Not so much more powerful than gods.certainly none have been printed with godcrafting powers(even those three that are printed as having done such).I did find out in dragons and gods that intelligences have deific powers too,but nothing amongst those powers helps either.unless you count create minion,which doesnt seem to be powerful enough to create an actual god.maybe intelligences have a greater level of essence fragment they can employ to create gods,but dont do it anymore as any intelligence that creates a god tends to get overthrown by them(except zurvan),like the old ones were overthrown by their own minions(although im not sure if the palladium gods are counted amongst the minions the old ones created).or do they have an unprinted greater minion deific power or use create minion in conjunction with a regular essence fragment.is the ability to create a god a common ability or do only certain intelligences have this power?

i forgot my question now...um...oh right.is there further information on this anywhere lol ok,im just assuming all gods are created by intelligences at some point and that the other reasons for godly existence are inaccurate.is there solid information anywhere else on these other reasons for divine existence? and did i read somewhere that the demon/deevils and their lords were also created by intelligences?

[AzathothXy]

The demons/deevils seem to have been created by the Old Ones(along with the vampire intelligences), as shock troops/fodder. I beleive they were pitted against each other to earn their master's attention/affection. And with the defeat of the Old Ones, the demons/deevils still compete to see which side is more powerful, or worthy.

[Nightmartree]

Gods are basically beings who reached the point where they are more magic than being if I remember the description right. So all you need to make one is enough believers/followers pumping PPE into them. So for an Alien Intelligence to make a god all it has to do is create a minion tell its followers "this is my divine servant, worship it" and sit back, in time that servant gets enough belief/power and is now a god. This can be handy when your rulling so many people you need a few extra hands to keep things in line and a few powers who can throw down with gods and intelligences. But it comes with risk if you can't keep them in line.

This also means they aren't just made by intelligences, but that the intelligences are one of the few powers able to effectively make gods. This assumes they are a powerful enough one to spare the PPE and think they can keep their followers and the gods in line.

[iteration27]

Hmmm,seems to me anyone could "make" a god,if you you have to do is set it up to be worshipped.Demonstrate your godlike triax magic to a group of primitives and you'll be climbing up the divine ranks in no time.as far as gods just coming into being from belief,i was mistaken in that.i misread the passage.it simply states that some priests describe gods as mans way to explain universal mysteries.more concrete is the passage where it describes most gods as just alien dimensional travellers.
Also gods arent generally as powerful as intelligences,but can be with enough worship.intelligences can also make use of worship but dont need it.Both gods and intelligences have access to deific powers(so do demon/deevil lords).Regardless of where else they MAY come from,we only KNOW they can be created by intelligences.There is no other information on where they come from or how they come to be,other than the fact they they are dimesional travelling aliens.like intelligences.
so im really leaning to the argument that they are a form of lesser intelligence.less powerful and more reliant on PPE/worship.Maybe rare greater essence shards of more powerful intelligences.Certainly they're related in some way as these beings(including demon/deevil lords) are the only beings capable of expressing deific powers.
All that having been said,i have seen reference to being able to reach demi god status and in some cases god status,from mere mortal beginnings,which just muddies the waters all over again.But i think the evidence,such as it is,more strongly points to divinity being of AI origin,with the odd,typically palladium exception.

[Nightmartree]

I'd swear a read a bit somewhere about gods being able to ascend if they receive enough worshipers/energy but i'm not sure exactly where. And i'm also pretty sure once you become a god the only ways to truly kill you are to wipe out your pantheon, or all your believers (one leaves no one to revive you, the other leaves you with so little power you cease to exist). Alien intelligences get the benefit of not being tied to worshippers for life, though losing them removes an outside source of power, a group of worshippers generally IS a gods power/existence.

All told though, a lot of the older pantheons are born of alien intelligences...probably because back when all these pantheons were young the great old ones and kin were happily beboping around rulling all of existence...so an age thing not a "all gods must be" ya know? I mean if all power flows to the intelligences they're just in a position to do it when no one else is, once the great wars happened and the old ones were sealed then you have more room for non-intelligences (that sounds so bad) to grow in power and so you'd get more younger gods that aren't "Made"

[guardiandashi]

I will be honest I look at it from a slightly different point of view.

not everyone can ascend to being a god, with that said, if you do manage to ascend one of the things that makes it possible is that you have an ability to receive/harvest and channel power from belief/followers. of course that has its own issues and rules, but essentially if people believe in you, and channel power to you. You can do things that encourage belief in you and get them to send you more power which allows you to do more ....

now is it possible that the old ones created some of the older gods, for "proxy battles/wars" but we really don't know.

[SolCannibal]

Well, overall in Palladium books i have seen more examples of deities as "2nd generation Alien/Supernatural Intelligences" or creations that due to their functions and greater interaction with the mortal races developed a sort of rapport and decided to turn against their creators/parents.

In some cases, like Anu and Zurvan for example, the separation between god and AI/SI is even more vague and questionable, one more of temperament and interests than capacities or nature overall. Never seem much of evidence of people ascending to godhood or somesuch, though i'll be the first to admit i never seriously looked into the subject.

Demons seems to be - natives of Hades pretensions of specialness notwithstanding - a general term for any number of evil dimension-hopping races, capacity to reform themselves in a home plane optimal but not an essential requirement. Many are minions of an entity or pantheon, but some are basically roving bands of marauders, sort of like one might imagine Huns, Mongols and other groups associated with a strong "roving barbarian" imagery. Deevils are simply a group of infernal races that developed a particular culture and identity around a common place of origin (Dyval) and peculiar qualities (vulnerability to iron, etc).

The native of Hades are much the same, though with no special "race/nation" name to call their own, though in their case there's the added complication/curiosity that there seems to be large populations of demon races associated with Hades serving a lot of other entities/pantheons or as part of independent societies, like the Phoenix Empire, the Rakshasas under Ravana and a number of other cases.

Me i tend to interpret it somewhat as matters of language/people/ethnicity x nation, as one may see in Belgium, Switzerland, Spain and a number of countries that break with "one people, one language, etc" context. And a far from european-specific phenomenon, as shown by China and far more places than i wish to cite right now.

[iteration27]

ok,gods are like demons/deevils.if the god dies OUTSIDE his deific realm he can be forced to manifest back home in the deific realm,but only if two other pantheon members want him back.It doesnt state anywhere that they cant die in their own realm though.so like demons/deevils,if they die at home,one can assume they're dead.making home invasions the worst thing for gods.although they'd be undoubtedly more powerful on home turf.all this makes them even more like demonic beings in my opinion.or demonic beings like lesser divine beings.greater demons being like godlings and lesser demons being,well,lesser.
you gotta remember too that there are many more intelligences around than are written.including the elusive good intelligence.and many if not most pantheons cant tell you where they come from.again,leaving me to assume(yes i know about assumption) AI ancestry,through lack of contradicting information,as again,i dont think were given any clue as to where any pantheon come from except for the ones with AI ancestry.But also like i said before,they could be a form of lesser intelligence,if not created.
what was that about all power flowing to the AIs? no it doesnt,as gods have a habit of turning on their masters be they titans or intelligences.

Ok in pantheons it states that mortals can be worshipped as demigods/gods if powerful enough.but are never as powerful as actual gods.doesnt say they actually become gods.But then you got quetzalcoatl,a feathered serpent who became a god and dionysus,a demi god whom zeus elevated to godhood.so theres contradictions written into the pantheons book.

its not PROVEN that a mortal can just achieve godhood through worship and its not PROVEN that anybeings other than gods and intelligences can actually can the benefits of worship.But it does say that godlings dont see their power increased through worship.so why would mortals?

At the end of the day though its a debate as eternal as the gods themselves i suppose.On one hand you got the pantheon book which is written with the attitude that the gods as presented are just the authors interpretation and a guideline,nothing more,and that the gods should just be handled in any way the GM sees fit.on the other hand you got dragons and gods which says,this IS gods and this is how they are.

[iteration27]

sure,there are demonic races all over the place,too many to count with new ones published fairly regularly.But i think the DEMONS of hades and the DEEVILS of dyval were are specific to those two dimensions as they have the whole discorporate and reform at home dimension thing going on.I think i read that the two infernal races were created by the old ones(dont quote me on that) and their respective hells were created for them to inhabit and that they were basically playing pieces to be used against eachother.Ok thats pretty straight forward.but then you get all the other demonic races.do they have a similar relationship with their own dimensions? dying and being reborn? or is it just the hades/dyval set that have this divine gift? also when demonic beings not native to these 2 dimensions are adopted by the denizens of these realms,im pretty sure they share in that dimensions rebirth cycle(again dont quote me).is this a property of the dimensions themselves or of its demonic denizens,that can be granted to other beings?

[SolCannibal]

But i think the DEMONS of hades and the DEEVILS of dyval were are specific to those two dimensions as they have the whole discorporate and reform at home dimension thing going on.

Not quite - as i pointed out previously, populations of Baal-rogs, Gallu demon bulls, Rakshasas and many others have been shown as major populations of societies quite unrelated to Hades, like the Phoenix Empire or the realms of Ravana, Kubera and/or Yama, for a few examples. Again going to my "people x nation" example, not all slavs are russian, not all german people are from Germany, as millions of austrians, swiss (and some french) demonstrate. That said, yes, the whole "place to reform" gig seems to be mostly a thing of the infernal races of those two specific dimensions/realms in particular.

[Though that might be simply a product of their being the two groups of infernal powers that actually got dimension books dedicated specifically to them, should be said. The Apocalypse Demons from Rifts Africa most certainly are described as possessing the same capacity]

I think i read that the two infernal races were created by the old ones(dont quote me on that) and their respective hells were created for them to inhabit and that they were basically playing pieces to be used against eachother.Ok thats pretty straight forward.but then you get all the other demonic races.do they have a similar relationship with their own dimensions? dying and being reborn? or is it just the hades/dyval set that have this divine gift? also when demonic beings not native to these 2 dimensions are adopted by the denizens of these realms,im pretty sure they share in that dimensions rebirth cycle(again dont quote me).is this a property of the dimensions themselves or of its demonic denizens,that can be granted to other beings?

A number of demonic races are mentioned as creations of some kind of entity, if memory tricks me not - i remember the Galla demons of the Mesopotamian pantheon being mentioned as actual creations of Tiamat and related to Baal-Rog demons [Should have been Gallu demon bulls, imho] to boot.

[iteration27]

as always its all very messy.When i said demons/deevils are specific to hades/dyval....i should have said native.i do understand theyre found elsewhere.but the always reform in their native dimension.

I guess im not going to find any satisfactory answers lol my thing is ive got quite alot of the books but not all of them,so i dont know if im missing relevant information from some of them on alot of the issues/questions i have.
on this particular subject it seems no one has read anything definitive from a source i dont have.

[SolCannibal]

as always its all very messy.When i said demons/deevils are specific to hades/dyval....i should have said native.i do understand theyre found elsewhere.but the always reform in their native dimension.

Messy is good sometimes - i like that the powers of darkness in the Megaverse are not quite as cut & dry and simple to categorize like their alignment-divided analogs in D&D might have been, that members of some of the races popularly associated with either Hades or Dyval may be found that actually have no such ties, origin and probably do not even reform there, while maybe the opposite is true to some ancient, obscure & nearly extinct races from either dimension.

I guess im not going to find any satisfactory answers lol my thing is ive got quite alot of the books but not all of them,so i dont know if im missing relevant information from some of them on alot of the issues/questions i have.
on this particular subject it seems no one has read anything definitive from a source i dont have.

Probably no, setting isn't really thought as a closed case, one might say.

On another subject, truth be told, while i have seen this touted by people a number of times here and there, examples of mortals transforming themselves into deities is something i still have to see any canon examples of actually cited. The closest i can remember is the Sowki Erghoul's millenia-long plan/obsession with devising a way to do so with the knowledge gained through his witchery link to Abzu or Gilgamesh's attempt at immortality (that is dubiously vague at best and might even not involve godhood per se).

[iteration27]

i dont mind messy.i just like a bit of order to it lol

yeah rising to godhood is really only hinted at as a possibility and theres only a case or two mentioned here and there,with no mechanics.

[Sohisohi]

sure,there are demonic races all over the place,too many to count with new ones published fairly regularly.But i think the DEMONS of hades and the DEEVILS of dyval were are specific to those two dimensions as they have the whole discorporate and reform at home dimension thing going on.I think i read that the two infernal races were created by the old ones(dont quote me on that) and their respective hells were created for them to inhabit and that they were basically playing pieces to be used against eachother.Ok thats pretty straight forward.but then you get all the other demonic races.do they have a similar relationship with their own dimensions? dying and being reborn? or is it just the hades/dyval set that have this divine gift? also when demonic beings not native to these 2 dimensions are adopted by the denizens of these realms,im pretty sure they share in that dimensions rebirth cycle(again dont quote me).is this a property of the dimensions themselves or of its demonic denizens,that can be granted to other beings?

This is a question I was about to make a thread about because I don't remember reading anywhere that states deevils are reformed like daemons.

[SolCannibal]

Can't cite specific page, but i'm pretty sure the Deevils also reform too, it has been referenced a number of times in bits of lore, fluff and such related to the Minion War progression, so no real doubts on that subject to me.

[Sohisohi]

Can't cite specific page, but i'm pretty sure the Deevils also reform too, it has been referenced a number of times in bits of lore, fluff and such related to the Minion War progression, so no real doubts on that subject to me.

Just checked the book, p16, they do indeed reform. Though, unlike gods, they don't require anyone to reform. EDIT: Demons require at least one drop of blood to get things going. Both will try birthing to speed things up when the opportunity arise.

[Nightmartree]

On another subject, truth be told, while i have seen this touted by people a number of times here and there, examples of mortals transforming themselves into deities is something i still have to see any canon examples of actually cited.

I won't swear by it but i believe that its said that godlings can become gods (or implied...or maybe just assumed really heavily because we see cases of "these gods have kids and they are gods" and godlings are in many cases supposed to be descended from gods) and i think in one of the south america world books its shown or stated that you may become a godling as a possible reward from the gods to heros in service to the empire.

Though they are different from the pantheons of mehaverse godling...

I could be wrong but thats something to check

[SolCannibal]

On another subject, truth be told, while i have seen this touted by people a number of times here and there, examples of mortals transforming themselves into deities is something i still have to see any canon examples of actually cited.

I won't swear by it but i believe that its said that godlings can become gods (or implied...or maybe just assumed really heavily because we see cases of "these gods have kids and they are gods" and godlings are in many cases supposed to be descended from gods) and i think in one of the south america world books its shown or stated that you may become a godling as a possible reward from the gods to heros in service to the empire.

Though they are different from the pantheons of megaverse godling...

I could be wrong but thats something to check

Indeed. To be sure of how different or not such godlings might be from the Pantheons of Megaverse variety. The idea of "promoting" heroic mortals to demigod or godling status through the use of a Prototypical Divine Ability, such as those in Dragons & Gods, sounds like a pretty thematically fitting option.

And on the matter of godlings turning into gods, well, i always had this idea of godlings as "hatchlings of the gods", so to speak, and somehow i doubt that kind of lead of logic is far from unique on my part.

[iteration27]

well,in the absence of actual rules im open to anything.i was also of the opinion that godlings were essentially gods to be,the next generation.like what happens when a god truly dies? maybe a godling powers up to fill the void? of course,osiris died,did anyone take his place...im not sure.but yeah,like i said pantheons just leaves things open how to handle gods,where as D&Gs give more definite form to their workings but doesnt answer everything.

[SolCannibal]

well,in the absence of actual rules im open to anything.i was also of the opinion that godlings were essentially gods to be,the next generation.like what happens when a god truly dies? maybe a godling powers up to fill the void? of course,osiris died,did anyone take his place...im not sure.but yeah,like i said pantheons just leaves things open how to handle gods,where as D&Gs give more definite form to their workings but doesnt answer everything.

Well, considering Isis millenia-long quest to collect her husband's parts and bring him back, i would guess "true death" is something quite vague and debatable when it comes to gods.

Also, how does "filling the void" in a pantheon works anyway? Do they have titles or niches to cover, a matter of power and social pecking order, defined by the individual personalities, a combination of those and more or something else altogether? It may even vary depending on pantheon and the books show evidence of gods migrating between pantheons - Aphrodite from Mesopotamian to Greek and the Avesta being relatives of the Vedic segment of Indian gods, for examples - so these issues can be quite convoluted in their specifity in fact.

[iteration27]

i'd like to know WHERE osiris died.Im assuming he died in his home dimension,in order to leave a corpse.cos according to D&Gs if he died outside the home dimension,he can just be forced to manifest by 2 willing pantheon members.which makes me believe death at home is a true death as it is for demons.leaving a physical corpse as osiris did.
the deific resurrection power brings back the dead even if completely destroyed(discorporated for a god),so surely that would work on osiris.But he isnt discorporated.hes physically dead and dismembered.its very curious.is his state the result of a specific magical curse? or do gods suffering physical death simply need all their parts to resurrect,like a normal resurrection spell.

filling the void must depend on pantheon.they all have a definite pecking order,theres always a leader at the very least and most gods as far as i can tell,represent something(sun,harvest,the dead,love).whether these divine representations qualify as positions in a pantheon or not,is anyones guess.But if a pantheon lost its goddess of love,surely they'd be replaced,or miss out on all the worship usually garnered by a god in that position.

[SolCannibal]

i'd like to know WHERE osiris died.Im assuming he died in his home dimension,in order to leave a corpse.cos according to D&Gs if he died outside the home dimension,he can just be forced to manifest by 2 willing pantheon members.which makes me believe death at home is a true death as it is for demons.leaving a physical corpse as osiris did.

It beggars the question of what and where would that home dimension be.

the deific resurrection power brings back the dead even if completely destroyed(discorporated for a god),so surely that would work on osiris.But he isnt discorporated.hes physically dead and dismembered.its very curious.is his state the result of a specific magical curse? or do gods suffering physical death simply need all their parts to resurrect,like a normal resurrection spell.

I'm tempted to bet on curse, as the dismembering was done directly by Set in myth and there's also the whole "neither part ever managed to collect more than a third of all parts at any one time". Considering that Set himself suffers with this complication, the curse's source might have been not even himself, but something done indirectly with resources obtained from Thoth or a more mysterious entity, for example.

filling the void must depend on pantheon.they all have a definite pecking order,theres always a leader at the very least and most gods as far as i can tell,represent something(sun,harvest,the dead,love).whether these divine representations qualify as positions in a pantheon or not,is anyones guess.But if a pantheon lost its goddess of love,surely they'd be replaced,or miss out on all the worship usually garnered by a god in that position.

I would bet more on the second case, roles fitting the member deities' personalities, as the sample pantheons have not only clear gaps on their purviews/interests when compared to each other but sometimes deities with similar and somewhat redundant roles.

[Khanibal]

Do you not have the Ascension sourcebook for Rifts? On p. 37 it reads that you have to file a form 3384-D with the local office of divinity, before you can start receiving PPE from outside the normal range (check BoM).

[iteration27]

I'm assuming the egyptian pantheon home dimension is ma'ip,unless ive missed somewhere that ma'ip is not where they originate.or im getting mixed up somehow(i'll check up on that later).and as for where it is.well dimensions are their own location,arent they?
yeah i'd probably go with curse too,it makes sense and i dont have any better suggestions.
Ascension for rifts? is my chain being jerked? im sensing some humour here lol
as for BoM(im assuming book of magic) what am i looking for in there specifically? i dont recall seeing anything about gods in there.

[guardiandashi]

it is totally noncanon but my feeling is that if a god gets taken out (dies) the Pantheon is going to do 1 of two things, either try to bring them back, (or if they can't they will try to cultivate a replacement) which doesn't always mean they will be successful.

I mean its not really like they can hold auditions. I can just see that honestly,
Zeus: "Ok guys so as you all know Ares is dead, I mean really and finally dead, so we have an opening for a new god of WAR so lets see your Resume, and your qualifications, then after that We will do interviews, and have the trials."

[iteration27]

i dont know,godtrials might well be a thing.or maybe sank like olympus has got talent,divinity factor,who knows lol the gods are said to be rather human in their behaviour afterall.
But in all seriousness,yes im sure they'd probably try to bolster their number if possible.But the question is how.as mentioned earlier,the aspects gods represent arent always all encompassing and exact matches for certain gods would be hard to come by,replacing say the god of storms with the god of moderately strong winds.
I did read that zeus elevated dionysus from a demi-god to a full god,however,so if this kinda thing is possible,then maybe replenishing a pantheon isnt hard at all.just requiring consensus amongst the gods in the same way as deific resurrection.

[SolCannibal]

I guess it depends on how popular or invaluable the departed deity was to its respective pantheon i guess.

Some may want it back, some might see the god or goddess leave as welcome relief from a disliked associate/relative, others might not care either way but see in the occasion an opportunity to poach into that role or bring some associates as replacements. Instead of trying to fake cosmic, play up the petiness and mundanity of a grouping of deities intriguing as they go. Somewhere between superhero teams and a court/clique of conspirators in Game of Thrones.

It actually goes well with Rifts' particular blend of mythology and cosmic comic book drama, imho.

The pantheons are not quite static, gods may come and go for a number of reasons - there's Aphrodite case of pantheon migration, Ra joining the pantheon of Light & Darkness after Osiris was taken apart, as its leader no less, Benu self-imposed exile along with Sobek's far less voluntary one, Hel (the one from Palladium, not the norse one) abandoning her pantheon to become queen of Dyval and a number of other examples of twists, changes and so on.

[iteration27]

yeah i guess at the end of the day there is no big megaversal plan.it really is just left open for GMs to decide.

[SolCannibal]

yeah i guess at the end of the day there is no big megaversal plan.it really is just left open for GMs to decide.

Or to players to attemp crazy plans out of the GMs evocative bits of scenery with.

[iteration27]

nothing is beyond the GM!!! unless hes kept out of the loop.

[Nightmartree]

nothing is beyond the GM!!! unless hes kept out of the loop.

You just have to apply "Fey and Forces of the universe" rules to the GM

[iteration27]

do these rules circumvent the absence of a loop connection to the GM? im sure the loop is a fundamental law that is unable to be circumvented by anything but an actual loop hole.in this case a loop peephole,enabling the GM knowledge of all the dirtiness the players are upto.

[SolCannibal]

For the sake of an example of playing with the pantheons as being in a state of flux and not set in stone....

- what if Aphrodite, after an extended vacation frolicking with Krishna as rumored in CB2, decides to change pantheons again? Would Eros follow with his mom, try to fill her role in the pantheon or maybe strike on his own to find a new, unique path outside of her shadow and portfolio? And how does that affect, for good or for ill, Hera's own influence as goddess of marriage?

- Phobos, the godling working with a vampire intelligence - what's he up to actually, is he the real deal or not? If he is, what could have lead to a falling out of his with Ares and/or the other olympians (who can be quite tolerant with the foibles and vices of each other, might be said)? If he's an imposter, how would the real Phobos, Deimos and other children of Ares feel about this rogue toying with the name of one of theirs (toxic as it may be on itself)?

- How much does Kali, who changed sides in the last second during the mayhem of the Indian Gods losing a world to extradimensional invaders (Splugorth, if memories trick me not) know or not about Varuna's own collaboration and double-dealing in the conflict? Could she try to blackmail him? Could he orchestrate a counterstrike - and her capture, assassination or conversion into rune weapon - out of an effort to clean this stain/eliminate all incriminating evidence or witnesses?

- Could Parvati be manipulated into helping take her "rogue aspect" down? Would Shiva be ok with Kali's destruction feeling betrayed by her actions or does he still care enough for her to attempt to "rescue" her or even go to her side and consequences be damned? Would Parvati turn against her husband or would this push her even harder into a fight with either or both?

- If Ratri has indeed been captured by forces of darkness in Mexico - be it Kingu, vampire inteligences, Camazotz, the Aztec Gods or something else altogether - what kind of plans could they have for her? And how does that affect or not her associates among the Indian and Persian pantheons?

[iteration27]

all good points,but ive already accepted its all as will be written.just from the writers point of view,its not set in stone.and trying to divine answers to my questions is impractical as those answers only exist in the varied minds of the many GMs.

[SolCannibal]

all good points,but ive already accepted its all as will be written.just from the writers point of view,its not set in stone.and trying to divine answers to my questions is impractical as those answers only exist in the varied minds of the many GMs.

Well, it happens - but then i'm among those who see that as a good thing. What had you in mind to use such answers for, in fact?

[iteration27]

oh i had nothing in mind.well i had in mind that there might be answers in books i didnt have.so i guess i was just trying to broaden my knowledge.I dont see the way it currently sits as negative or positive.it just is what it is.and only becomes a negative or positive depending on the needs and intentions of whoevers looking at it.
but yeah.i was looking at all these stats for gods and greater and just assuming more beyond that.trying to divine what it could be in the absence of anything solid.
And finding that there is nothing concrete,just gives me leeway to decide whats really going on in my own games,to my own satisfaction.

[SolCannibal]

Indeed.

But back on the initial matter/question of a relation between alien intelligences and gods, Zeus and his siblings knows it for a fact with Cronus, same goes for the mesopotamian pantheon and Abzu & Tiamat, with some of them harkening to that more alien and primal era in body (Anu) or spirit (Ereshkigal & Nergal for example), others might be debatable in either origin or awareness (depends on how one looks at Zurvan' nature, his making of Ahura Mazda & Ahriman and either's awareness of its desires & motives) and some where we are utterly left in the dark (Norse and Indian pantheons) about any relation or lack thereof.

[RockJock]

Wolvenar is another good example of a young god coming into being. The problem is D&G does not really give an answer as to how he was formed. Might be from demons, might be the child of a god and a wolf, might have just popped into existence because of the rise of the Wolfen. It is made vague, and unknown on purpose.


Dragons and Gods has several deific powers that could theoretically be used to make a god, or at least something approaching one. First you have Create Minion which lets a god make a supernatural minion, then you have Confer Immortality, which is actually a curse that makes the victim age 1 year for every 100 years of life.

Create Minion basically lets the god make a sort of demi-god light, and can help boost the pantheon over time. The minion could easily be seen as the "child" of the god, and in time gain worshippers of it's own. This could also be the origin of groups like the Star Elves in PW.

While Immortality is meant to be a punishment, it gives the victim time to come grow into a power in their own right. A longer lived race like an Elf would have thousands of years to build power. An Elf cursed at 200 years old is still physically young at 10,000 years old with the curse. That Elf could easily be the master of multiple forms of magic, have high PPE, knows skills from a hundred lifetimes, and have magic items and resources that seem godlike, and could start worship in their own right.

[iteration27]

for me,i do like the idea that most of the gods have a genesis based around the AI's,but im not sure if its something i'll implement or even have the opportunity to explore in my first game.if i do,i dont know if i'll allow other avenues to godhood or not.

yeah i did consider create minion in an earlier entry.but i see it more as just for creating minions.although im not saying an enterprising GM cant use it for more than that.it really does,i guess,depend on what race or creature is being used as the base.i cant remember if supernaturals were allowed.

[SolCannibal]

Also, i found this on Enlil's write-up in Pantheons of Megaverse:

Enlil was Anu's eldest son, a god of the wind. He wasn't really born, but was created when a fragment of Anu's essence melded with a greater air elemental and a mortal's mind in a complex magic and psionic ritual. Enlil, as a result, was much more human-like than his father, although still very different from any mortal.

What, all things considered, gives us something of a (overpowered) benchmark for repeating the feat in Anu's "18th level shifter, 15th level ley line walker, 12th level mind melter" magic & psionic skills.
There are also Kingu and Lilith, who were uplifted from an unamed type of demon and a Dar'ota, respectively, into their unique states by Tiamat (18th level ley line walker).
Beside them, one may also cite Hercules the Destroyer and Mamers, the two demons empowered by the Jupiter Alien Intelligence, leader of Dark Olympus (12th Level Line Walker, Diabolist, and Summoner).

Thought it could be entertaining to bring up those canon cases, vague though they may be.

[iteration27]

lol all that just confuses matters even more...but at the same time suggesting theres a magic ritual for god creation.Pantheons needs to be re done and bought more in line with D&Gs.for that matter,england needs to be updated.i'm not happy with england.

[SolCannibal]

lol all that just confuses matters even more...but at the same time suggesting theres a magic ritual for god creation.Pantheons needs to be re done and bought more in line with D&Gs.for that matter,england needs to be updated.i'm not happy with england.

Or maybe the opposite and the rules stop trying to gate-lock the possibility of such ascension or uplifting of supernatural behind "super NPC only" features?

Personally i'm more in favor of "difficult but can kind of see how to reach it, if one gets the info" than "GM fiat only, ever".

[RockJock]

The D&G blur about Create Minions says roll up as a player race, sub demon, or lesser demon from the main book, or any "creature" from Monsters and Animals. The definition of "creature" can vary, but for example a Gargoyle Mage or Lord fits the sub demon category. Basically roll up as normal, and add a few bonuses and abilities from the god. Plus it says later on that they are supernatural.

I think Palladium gods, spirits, and deities require a kitchen sink approach. Go on the basis that there are multiple ways to get to the same, or at least similar end results.

[iteration27]

well it kinda is locked,but isnt.relies on GMs fiat but doesnt.
we know its possible to make gods but are presented with different and somewhat ambiguous ways of doing it.The books writer just went with the allover the place,pick'n'mix approach.
If i were using create minion,i'd base the creation on my own Godmaster (GM) stats.ok maybe that would be too weak lol
so you make a minion.how does it become a full god.sure the minion power can seemingly make a powerful creature.but there still isnt a clear path to actual godhood.yes we do have the power of prayer.but how does that actually work? actually im sure i read somewhere on the number of followers to become a god.that must have been D&Gs.i'll have another look later.

[SolCannibal]

well it kinda is locked,but isnt.relies on GMs fiat but doesnt.
we know its possible to make gods but are presented with different and somewhat ambiguous ways of doing it.The books writer just went with the allover the place,pick'n'mix approach.
If i were using create minion,i'd base the creation on my own Godmaster (GM) stats.ok maybe that would be too weak lol
so you make a minion.how does it become a full god.sure the minion power can seemingly make a powerful creature.but there still isnt a clear path to actual godhood.yes we do have the power of prayer.but how does that actually work? actually im sure i read somewhere on the number of followers to become a god.that must have been D&Gs.i'll have another look later.

Pretty good question actually, as D&G has at least one group, Dragonwright, that pretty much stands in the Minion-Deity fence and made it into a path/ladder to apotheosis, it seems.

[iteration27]

the Dragonwright eh? yeah i love those guys.I think i read that they became gods after ruling over some early civilization in the yin-sloth jungles or somewhere near there.cant remember which book that was.but ive looked at the worshippers thing.its not worshippers to become a god.its a case that a god starts to get worried for his power base when he's down to 10000 worshippers.so that doesnt help.its got to be alot more than 10000 to be promoted to a god.but curiously,under worshippers,it says that a forgotten god must hang on to what PPE he has left,knowing it will not be replenished(sayin gods dont recover PPE without worshippers) and that he will turn back to mortal flesh or die if he cannot find more worshippers.
More complication.it suggests gods,all gods,are completely dependent on worship.which doesnt make sense when you consider how some gods came into being.some gods were never mortal to begin with.

Its two different books written at different times by different people for two different settings.thats what ive got to remember.
if i go by D&Gs being a god is dependent on worshippers and all the gods were mortal at one time,except for the gods who are the children of other gods (although i'm sure i read that the old ones created at least some of the gods)
if i go by pantheons the only genesis of a god we're shown is that they are created in some way by intelligences or other gods.

[SolCannibal]

One possible explanation is that the worship dependence only applies to mortal beings elevated to godhood. While they might still recover PPE without worshippers it might be just their original PPE recovery capacities, read, nowhere near enough to a deity's much greater reserves and so on.

Also, i think either the Conversion Book or Pantheons does imply a certain degree of dependence on worship in worlds or dimensions without the imense quantities of PPE found on Rifts Earth, among other things. Though i would have to check the books to find a specfic page to cite for sure.

[iteration27]

i was just going off what dragons and gods said under worshippers.i prefer to go with whats said in rules sections,over mentions outside of those sections.and like i said its two different settings.though they are cited as being compatible,theyre only compatible as far as the basics go.i think its best to just go with one source.and D&G is the most complete source.trying to reconcile all the different references in all the different rifts books with D&G is difficult.because they often contradict what D&G sets down.unless you just go with handling rifts and PFRP differently.which is what i'd normally do.but i prefer the D&G stuff and want to use it with rifts.so i think disregarding the stuff under worshippers,about becoming mortal,works best.just have gods becoming weakened,being unable to perform deific powers and seeing personal reserves of PPE and MDC/SDC reduced drastically,until they get back above 10000 worshippers.But thats just me.

[iteration27]

as far as making gods goes...it seems like this.Intelligences seem to have an unprinted natural ability to do so.Gods can do it with an unprinted magical ritual or procreate and mortals can ascend with enough worshippers.its the details that are missing.i'm inclined to rewrite pantheons to bring it in line with D&G and add the unprinted material for god creation.obviously i'd make the specific god powers in pantheons deific powers and assign them deific costs,as it is in D&G.I'd probably give intelligences a deific essence power,to create gods.but only for the more powerful intelligences.like the old ones and the intelligences in pantheons(apsu,chronos,zurvan).i'll work out the ritual that anu used to create enlil or maybe just ignore it.and i'll give serious thought as to how much worship can make a god.I'll have 2 or three levels,so a mortal will have to go through demi god and godling first.characters with equivalent demi or godling power to start with can skip straight to god power with enough worshippers.im just not sure what would be reasonable.i'd also have to work out the exact boost a character would get at each worship level.I need to find the references where people became gods and try to determine the size of their worshipper bases.

its all unnecessary of course,and i wouldnt bother if gods werent stated.but they are.
i'll have to put all that on the back burner though.i got enough stuff to be gettin on with already.

[SolCannibal]

i was just going off what dragons and gods said under worshippers.i prefer to go with whats said in rules sections,over mentions outside of those sections.and like i said its two different settings.though they are cited as being compatible,theyre only compatible as far as the basics go.i think its best to just go with one source.and D&G is the most complete source.trying to reconcile all the different references in all the different rifts books with D&G is difficult.because they often contradict what D&G sets down.unless you just go with handling rifts and PFRP differently.which is what i'd normally do.but i prefer the D&G stuff and want to use it with rifts.so i think disregarding the stuff under worshippers,about becoming mortal,works best.just have gods becoming weakened,being unable to perform deific powers and seeing personal reserves of PPE and MDC/SDC reduced drastically,until they get back above 10000 worshippers.But thats just me.

Actually, my point is that, if memory tricks me not - it might, so my suggestion of checking it out - the text in the Conversion Book about Supernatural Intelligences & so-called Gods could be understood to mesh with what is said on D&G, except in the particular case of very PPE-rich worlds like Rifts Earth, Mars, Pomadon (a world in the TGE going through a Chaos Earth situation, further agravated by TGE periodic orbital nuking) and maybe Phaseworld.