heroes unlimited occ question

[iteration27]

as a new palladium player i was just looking through a variety of posts to get a feel for prevalent opinions on things(not getting much of a feel for prevalence though lol) and i came across a post where someone made a response about HU power categories being able to be selected as OCCs.cant remember who said it but i just wondered where exactly it states this.im not inclined to argue about it,just wanted to know where i could find that information.

[Axelmania]

Closest I can think of is page 40 of the Rifts Conversion Book, right column, end of 3rd-last paragraph before the bold 'Heroes Unlimited' and 'Aliens':

The hero's O.C.C., skills and cultural penalties are unchanged, except for the super-sleuth and hardware character. But some of the psionic and super abilities are increased.

I think that would support treating the Super-Sleuth and 4 Hardware categories as O.C.C.s, at a minimum.

[iteration27]

or maybe thats just how the writer chose to describe them at the time of writing,just so the reader would understand whats being said,as looking through the books im certain all the dimensions describe characters in terms of OCC except heroes unlimited.i could see certain power categories as OCCs but not others and im iffy on them being used as a regular character class as an add on to characters from other books.the potential for flagrant abuse of combo classes etc would suggest to me they arent "regular" OCCs as im sure the writers wouldnt have intended them as such.im just thinking a demigod for instance...taking a HU "OCC" would be ridiculous....no i dont buy it.although the poster who provoked my question spoke as if it was one hundred percent completely unambiguous...which as i get more acquainted with the system,i find hard to believe.
if the writer just left OCC out of the sentence it would have made total sense without opening up the proverbial can of munchkin worms.

[iteration27]

is that the Conversion book or revised conversion book,cos im on page 40 revised and cant see the passage you described

actually just read the whole section and doesnt seem to put HU characters and OCCs in the same sentence or even paragraph anywhere.annoying as youre obviously quoting straight from the book and i dont have the original conversion book.

but i guess revised CB trumps original,doesnt it? which would support my gut on the subject.Damn this system gives me a headache.i just want to know whats real and whats imagined,is it so much to ask!?!?!? i want to live in an illusory world,not an imagined illusion of an illusionary world!

[iteration27]

i know no one else has replied but id like to ask if i took the aforementioned demigod,gave him the abilities of say a leyline then took hardware weapons expert from HU as an OCC then as a hardware weapons expert took a second hardware package of say analytical genius thus making me,essentially, a supernatural leyline walker/rogue scientist/gunfighter that most people would consider that legal and acceptable?

[Axelmania]

I don't recall if it was kept in the revised version or not. Omission in the revised version isn't necessarily decanonization, it could simply be lost in the shuffle or sacrificed to make room for new D-Bees. I'd still abide by the original conversion book rules except where it gets directly contradicted by new ones. So it would have to say 'Super Sleuth is not an O.C.C.' for example.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

i know no one else has replied but id like to ask if i took the aforementioned demigod,gave him the abilities of say a leyline then took hardware weapons expert from HU as an OCC then as a hardware weapons expert took a second hardware package of say analytical genius thus making me,essentially, a supernatural leyline walker/rogue scientist/gunfighter that most people would consider that legal and acceptable?

Or you could just make him an Operator or Techno Wizard, buy the W.P.s you need, and call it a day.

Demigod with TW + another magic OCC's abilities as his Demigod choice is amazingly good. Particularly because you ALSO know all spells equal to your level in addition to whatever your OCC gives you, which for a TW is better than being a billionaire.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I don't recall if it was kept in the revised version or not. Omission in the revised version isn't necessarily decanonization, it could simply be lost in the shuffle or sacrificed to make room for new D-Bees. I'd still abide by the original conversion book rules except where it gets directly contradicted by new ones. So it would have to say 'Super Sleuth is not an O.C.C.' for example.

It specifically is, actually.

The old book isn't available. No one who comes to Rifts after that book goes out of print can use it because it isn't available.

That would be like trying to claim that the RMB is still valid for anything, when it isn't, as it has been wholly replaced by RUE.

CB1 was wholly replaced by CB1r.

[The Beast]

as a new palladium player i was just looking through a variety of posts to get a feel for prevalent opinions on things(not getting much of a feel for prevalence though lol) and i came across a post where someone made a response about HU power categories being able to be selected as OCCs.cant remember who said it but i just wondered where exactly it states this.im not inclined to argue about it,just wanted to know where i could find that information.

I know the old conversion book said that supers could take the Vagabond OCC and get 3 minor + 3 major powers with it. I don't recall what else it said as far as OCCs are concerned, nor do I know if the new one carried that over.

Having said that the Super Spy OCC in Rifts Mercenaries can have super powers. So that's at least two OCCs to choose from right there.

[Khanibal]

In CB1r, there NO restrictions on HU OCCs being translated to Rifts. Check conversion for individual powers to determine if SDC or MDC is appropriate.

[Axelmania]

Omission in the revised version isn't necessarily decanonization,

It specifically is, actually.

For it to specifically to be the case, you must point to where in the books it specifies this.

Otherwise, it is an unspecific assumption, not a specific necessity.

The old book isn't available. No one who comes to Rifts after that book goes out of print can use it because it isn't available.

Inability is not decanonization. Rarity is not outlawing.

That would be like trying to claim that the RMB is still valid for anything, when it isn't, as it has been wholly replaced by RUE. CB1 was wholly replaced by CB1r.

Where is this specifically stated in any of the books? I don't see anything saying I can't use Sky Kings, the old Shifter gifts, the Headhunter OCC or roll up a randomly generated monster from the back tables anymore.

Do you also think that Psi Stalker QT in Vampire Kingdoms no longer exists because Vampire Kingdoms Revised did not reprint her and only her daughter made it into Rifts Vampires?

Does Planktal being written up with a Necromancer OCC mean he cannot have the Ley Line Walker OCC too? Wouldn't be the first time we've have different stats written up for the same NPC, such as the level change in Joseph Prosek. NPCs can have multiple magical OCCs, as we've seen with the Dunscons.

[Tick]

Just to be clear - Heroes Unlimited doesn't use O.C.C., but switching between the games info. style is fine for most Game Masters.
O.C.C. style from rifts is a great way to template a character for Heroes Unlimited!

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Omission in the revised version isn't necessarily decanonization,

It specifically is, actually.

For it to specifically to be the case, you must point to where in the books it specifies this.

Otherwise, it is an unspecific assumption, not a specific necessity.

Your lack of basic understanding of how a canon of work is maintained is absolutely staggering.

The old book isn't available. No one who comes to Rifts after that book goes out of print can use it because it isn't available.

Inability is not decanonization. Rarity is not outlawing.

... it absolutely IS decanonization. A revised or replacement edition decononizes everything before it. Or are you trying to say i can sit down at the table in D&D 5th Edition and use my 1st Edition Assassin (because there is no Asssassin base class in D&D5 that replaces it, so i can still use it, right? The answer is NO, you cant.)

That's exactly how de-canonization works. If a work is replaced with a revised edition, the old edition is no longer canon. Full stop. If a book is no longer available and out of print, it literally CANNOT be canon, as the player base CANNOT OBTAIN IT TO BE ABLE TO USE IT FOR PLAY.

That would be like trying to claim that the RMB is still valid for anything, when it isn't, as it has been wholly replaced by RUE. CB1 was wholly replaced by CB1r.

Where is this specifically stated in any of the books? I don't see anything saying I can't use Sky Kings, the old Shifter gifts, the Headhunter OCC or roll up a randomly generated monster from the back tables anymore.

It doesn't need to be stated in a book. That's how not how canon works. A new edition replaces the old one. Unless the publisher admits an omission was a mistake, it isn't. If it isn't in the new edition, it's gone. Full stop. Now, of course you can use Sky Kings - theyre in the GMG -AND- have been reprinted in other books including the NG world books. You CANT use the old shifter powers because they have been removed. They no longer exist. If the old Headhunter OCC is reprinted elsewhere (in Canada?) you could use it. If not, nope. OCC was updated with the new edition which replaces the old one. You can make a house rule allowing people to use anything you want, but it's exactly that - a house rule. Same would be if i stated that the new Cyber-Jedi-Knight doesn't exist in my game and you have to use the one from RMB. I can run it that way, but that doesn't make it canon. Canon is, the new Cyber-Jedi-Knight is the only Cyber Knight.

Do you also think that Psi Stalker QT in Vampire Kingdoms no longer exists because Vampire Kingdoms Revised did not reprint her and only her daughter made it into Rifts Vampires?

She may exist, but we no longer have canon stats for her. If she is mentioned in her daughter's write-up, then she exists. But you dont have canon stats for her unless she is reprinted elsewhere.

Does Planktal being written up with a Necromancer OCC mean he cannot have the Ley Line Walker OCC too? Wouldn't be the first time we've have different stats written up for the same NPC, such as the level change in Joseph Prosek. NPCs can have multiple magical OCCs, as we've seen with the Dunscons.

[/quote][/quote]

None of this is remotely relevant as NPCs have NEVER had to obey the rules for player characters. Doesn't matter if an NPC has ten OCCs - PCs cannot.

Not that that has ANYTHING to do with a debate on what is canon or not.

[Axelmania]

Your lack of basic understanding of how a canon of work is maintained is absolutely staggering.

Canon is what's in the books. New books need to say old books no longer count for that to be so.

A revised or replacement edition decononizes everything before it.

That sounds like original research. Point me to where the book itself says that.

Or are you trying to say i can sit down at the table in D&D 5th Edition and use my 1st Edition Assassin (because there is no Asssassin base class in D&D5 that replaces it, so i can still use it, right? The answer is NO, you cant.)

That depends, I don't know whether or not D&D5 explicitly prohibits using the Assassin.

That's exactly how de-canonization works. If a work is replaced with a revised edition, the old edition is no longer canon. Full stop. If a book is no longer available and out of print, it literally CANNOT be canon, as the player base CANNOT OBTAIN IT TO BE ABLE TO USE IT FOR PLAY.

A person being unable to obtain a book has nothing to do with whether or not the book is canon. If that were true, every time the Palladium Store ran out of a certain book, that book would suddenly be removed from the Rifts Megaverse.

It doesn't need to be stated in a book. That's how not how canon works.

Being based on in-book statements is exactly how canon works.

A new edition replaces the old one. Unless the publisher admits an omission was a mistake, it isn't.

Intentional removals aren't decanonization either. Publishers avoid reprinting already-printed things to make room for new information all the time.

If it isn't in the new edition, it's gone. Full stop.

SOURCE NEEDED

You CANT use the old shifter powers because they have been removed. They no longer exist.

SOURCE?

If the old Headhunter OCC is reprinted elsewhere (in Canada?) you could use it. If not, nope.

SOURCE?

OCC was updated with the new edition which replaces the old one.

There is no Head-Hunter OCC in RUE, RMB had the Head-Hunter OCC, Canada introduced variants including the Techno-Warrior, and RUE printed a variant of the Techno-Warrior with some changes.

Curious: do you think the Techno-Warrior in Canada is no longer canon? RUE isn't Canada Ultimate Edition after all.

You can make a house rule allowing people to use anything you want, but it's exactly that - a house rule.

You're the one making house rules here. Unless you can point to an in-book rule saying that you can't use stuff in Rifts / Vampire Kingdoms because of RUE/VKR, saying you cannot use them is a house rule. They were never explicitly decanonized.

Canon is, the new Cyber-Jedi-Knight is the only Cyber Knight.

That ISN'T canon though, because RUE never said this.

we no longer have canon stats for her.

Sure we do. Point me to where it says they're no longer her stats.

None of this is remotely relevant as NPCs have NEVER had to obey the rules for player characters. Doesn't matter if an NPC has ten OCCs - PCs cannot.

Not that that has ANYTHING to do with a debate on what is canon or not.

The relevance is that Planktal was probably the most different in the returning Rangers.

Where's it say PCs can't have 10 OCCs btw?

[Blue_Lion]

By its nature a revised book makes every thing in the non-revised book non-cannon. Why? Because revised book replaces the old book. The old book can still be used as a reference source but is not currant canon.

[iteration27]

i agree with the last statement lol revised book means revised information.

as far as i can tell HU "classes" are specific to that setting and can only appear in Rifts Earth when specifically rifted or dimensionally teleported from one setting to another,in the form of an existing character.But thats just my interpretation.different strokes for different folks...mmmm strokes.

[dreicunan]

Or are you trying to say i can sit down at the table in D&D 5th Edition and use my 1st Edition Assassin (because there is no Asssassin base class in D&D5 that replaces it, so i can still use it, right? The answer is NO, you cant.)

That depends, I don't know whether or not D&D5 explicitly prohibits using the Assassin.

You don't know whether or not the 5th edition rules explicitly prohibit using 1st edition classes?

Are you also unsure if 2nd edition Palladium Fantasy prohibits you from using a GURPS character?

Are you unsure if Hackmaster prohibits you from using a FATAL character?

[Axelmania]

By its nature a revised book makes every thing in the non-revised book non-cannon. Why? Because revised book replaces the old book. The old book can still be used as a reference source but is not currant canon.

Revision can simply refer to alteration rather than amendment. Choosing what is important. Deciding to not reprint something already in print to make room for new things not in print isn't a condemnation of whatever is deprioritized.

You don't know whether or not the 5th edition rules explicitly prohibit using 1st edition classes?

Are you also unsure if 2nd edition Palladium Fantasy prohibits you from using a GURPS character?

Are you unsure if Hackmaster prohibits you from using a FATAL character?

Your examples are not equivalent. RUE is designed to work with all the prexisting books, that's why we don't need "Ultimate Edition" reprints of Conversion Books and World Books, despite there being a revised Conversion Book / Vampire Kingdoms / Federation of Magic.

[dreicunan]

You don't know whether or not the 5th edition rules explicitly prohibit using 1st edition classes?

Are you also unsure if 2nd edition Palladium Fantasy prohibits you from using a GURPS character?

Are you unsure if Hackmaster prohibits you from using a FATAL character?

Your examples are not equivalent. RUE is designed to work with all the prexisting books, that's why we don't need "Ultimate Edition" reprints of Conversion Books and World Books, despite there being a revised Conversion Book / Vampire Kingdoms / Federation of Magic.

Axel, you are the one who said, that you weren't sure if 5th edition D&D explicitly forbid the 1st edition Assassin. I was merely demonstrating only slightly more absurd versions of the issue.

But let's stick to RUE. It does not specifically state that the rules from RMB regarding burst damage have been decanonized. Does that mean that those rules are still in effect for weapons that list burst capability?

[Blue_Lion]

By its nature a revised book makes every thing in the non-revised book non-cannon. Why? Because revised book replaces the old book. The old book can still be used as a reference source but is not currant canon.

Revision can simply refer to alteration rather than amendment. Choosing what is important. Deciding to not reprint something already in print to make room for new things not in print isn't a condemnation of whatever is deprioritized.

You don't know whether or not the 5th edition rules explicitly prohibit using 1st edition classes?

Are you also unsure if 2nd edition Palladium Fantasy prohibits you from using a GURPS character?

Are you unsure if Hackmaster prohibits you from using a FATAL character?

Your examples are not equivalent. RUE is designed to work with all the prexisting books, that's why we don't need "Ultimate Edition" reprints of Conversion Books and World Books, despite there being a revised Conversion Book / Vampire Kingdoms / Federation of Magic.

Wait so something only appears in a book that is out of print because it was revised changed. And you think it is still canon just not something they prioritized. I gotta ask are you trolling me? (The idea that un-revised books and old editions are still valid currant canon after the change just seams so illogical that to me trolling is the only thing I can think of.)

[Khanibal]

If I load a powder charge, some wadding and a handful of game books into a 16" gun, is that a canon cannon?

[Axelmania]

Wait so something only appears in a book that is out of print because it was revised changed. And you think it is still canon just not something they prioritized. I gotta ask are you trolling me? (The idea that un-revised books and old editions are still valid currant canon after the change just seams so illogical that to me trolling is the only thing I can think of.)

Palladium reorganizes some books and cuts content to make room for new content sometimes. This doesn't mean they are saying they no longer believe in the content they remove. When the new spells were removed from Federation of Magic Revised, in no way were they communicating an intent to discredit those spells, as an example.

If something is missing after a re-org, we cannot take that as evidence that Palladium has condemned that material unless they go out of their way to explicitly do so.

[Eagle]

Arguing canon in Palladium is a fool's errand.

Conversion Book 1, unrevised, is still available. I just found it for 4 bucks on eBay. So yes, new players can find it.

[iteration27]

Damn,you lot do love a good argument lol well,im still too new to the system to properly argue about what is and what isnt canon.I did check the FAQ's and found the question answered as power categories being OCC's even if they arent specifically stated as such.I know the FAQ isnt really official,so that doesnt solve anything.as for CB vs rCB i do agree that its a replacement for the original book,thus would replace any canon from the CB,i also understand that THE official rule that trumps all rules is to change or remove any rules you dont personally like,which kinda makes canon redundant for everyone except the most strident of rules lawyers.But as an individual,i do prefer to use the most up to date rules as stated,seeing as the more up to date rules SHOULD(in an ideal world) represent the writers taking a look at earlier rules and seeing their mistakes or in consistences and ambiguities and trying to correct them or make them clearer to clear up the confusion and misunderstandings that the earlier rules would cause.although in practice,rules revisions often just make more problems as much as they solve them.

in regards to the original question,in can see how some power categories can be considered OCC's,but not others(specifically categories that empower a character through means other than training).for me a defining characteristic of an OCC is a set of skills specifically set down for the OCC.so yes a hardware character,in my opinion,can be considered an OCC,but a mutant cannot.but thats just how i see it.

as far as demigods go,i would not be happy with a demigod taking a POWERED class as they are supernatural beings and i just dont see them being able to develop super abilities,as due to their nature they are already POWERED.but again,just my opinion.

this is a topic i suppose will always divide opinion,as its impossible to state,unequivocably,which is the right way to do it,without an OFFICIAL statement from PB.

[eliakon]

HU Power Categories are similar to OCCs in some ways and different in others.
The biggest difference is that your category rarely affects your skills.

It is pretty easy to turn a Power Category into an OCC though. It isn't 100% canon per se, but most GMs can make it work based on what they like for their games.
The easiest to do are things like the Hardware or Mystic Studies or Physical Training or Ancient Master or the like. Just pick a race, and toss on the skills and abilities of the power category.
Super Powers are a bit trickier which is why the suggested "take a scholar or adventurer OCC and add super powers" is used.

[Natasha]

Damn,you lot do love a good argument lol well,im still too new to the system to properly argue about what is and what isnt canon.I did check the FAQ's and found the question answered as power categories being OCC's even if they arent specifically stated as such.I know the FAQ isnt really official,so that doesnt solve anything.as for CB vs rCB i do agree that its a replacement for the original book,thus would replace any canon from the CB,i also understand that THE official rule that trumps all rules is to change or remove any rules you dont personally like,which kinda makes canon redundant for everyone except the most strident of rules lawyers.But as an individual,i do prefer to use the most up to date rules as stated,seeing as the more up to date rules SHOULD(in an ideal world) represent the writers taking a look at earlier rules and seeing their mistakes or in consistences and ambiguities and trying to correct them or make them clearer to clear up the confusion and misunderstandings that the earlier rules would cause.although in practice,rules revisions often just make more problems as much as they solve them.

in regards to the original question,in can see how some power categories can be considered OCC's,but not others(specifically categories that empower a character through means other than training).for me a defining characteristic of an OCC is a set of skills specifically set down for the OCC.so yes a hardware character,in my opinion,can be considered an OCC,but a mutant cannot.but thats just how i see it.

as far as demigods go,i would not be happy with a demigod taking a POWERED class as they are supernatural beings and i just dont see them being able to develop super abilities,as due to their nature they are already POWERED.but again,just my opinion.

this is a topic i suppose will always divide opinion,as its impossible to state,unequivocably,which is the right way to do it,without an OFFICIAL statement from PB.

Unfortunately, things tend to become less clear. For instance, in much older days, O.C.C. was well-defined. With time it's come to be "class" with the "occupational" part at times being omitted. Poor editing, strange copy/paste, and a general lack of attention to detail all come together to create a mess you're going to have sort out if you want to do something as fundamental as creating a character nevermind play the game.

If you can get a copy of Powers Unlimited 2, you can play a superpowered demigod straight out of the book.

There actually is an official statement about the right way to play. Paraphrasing, it says to play your way and you may or may not find these rules useful.

[iteration27]

oh yes,i do have that one,sub category of immortals i think.yeah,i really do like this game alot.surprised i never played it before.the setting is great.looking through other books,PB seems to have it bad for post apocalyptic settings in general lol its like the megaverse really has it out for the earth in most dimensions.seems like a megaversal conspiracy to me.But i like the rifts setting best.probably cos its got everything.the rules...hmmm,ive seen better,ive seen worse.they do get very muddled and poorly edited,not a problem if you dont mind the extra work.which i dont.but there is so very much of it to do,that as a new GM for the game,im finding its really slowing me down in my writing.but i do think its worth it.

[Axelmania]

Arguing canon in Palladium is a fool's errand. Conversion Book 1, unrevised, is still available. I just found it for 4 bucks on eBay. So yes, new players can find it.

What a steal! Even though I still have mine I'd probably buy a 2nd copy for that much.

Damn,you lot do love a good argument lol well,im still too new to the system to properly argue about what is and what isnt canon.
I did check the FAQ's and found the question answered as power categories being OCC's even if they arent specifically stated as such.
I know the FAQ isnt really official,so that doesnt solve anything.

I would say we should go with the FAQ unless we have contradicting information in the books, like a statement "power categories cannot be treated as OCCs" for example. I see this as simply reinforcing what we have already been told from the Rifts Conversion Book.

If we look at the other side of the table, page 190 of HU2 under the Psychic category mentions

With the Game Master's permission, players can substitute or add any of the Psionic Occupational Character Classes (O.C.C.s) from other Palladium RPGs for the natural or latent psiooic. Rifts® probably offers the largest number of suitable characters, including the Psi-Slinger, PsiGhost, Psi-Nullifier, and many others.