CFT guns from the NW, can they fire sdc bullets?

[RockJock]

Pretty simple question. New West talks about firing CFT bullets out or a SDC handgun and a change of blowing it up, but in a quick look I didn't see the reverse. In my games we have always allowed a sdc bullet to fire out of a CFT gun of the right size.

[eliakon]

Pretty simple question. New West talks about firing CFT bullets out or a SDC handgun and a change of blowing it up, but in a quick look I didn't see the reverse. In my games we have always allowed a sdc bullet to fire out of a CFT gun of the right size.

I would say 'no'.
My reasoning is three parts
1) I believe that the CFT weapons have lenses inside them which is why a CFT gun gets better range than a non-CFT gun.
2) Is that as you stated they go out of their way to tell us what happens when you fire the wrong ammunition the one way... that would suggest that the lack of information on the other way is an intentional "can not".
And
3) If it COULD fire both rounds that would be a very useful feature that would seem to be worth noting (especially given the wide variety of specialty rounds available)
These three things when combined lead me to conclude that the CFT weapons are, infact functionally laser pistols and only look like revolvers.

[dreicunan]

[quote="eliakon"][quote="RockJock"]Pretty simple question. New West talks about firing CFT bullets out or a SDC handgun and a change of blowing it up, but in a quick look I didn't see the reverse. In my games we have always allowed a sdc bullet to fire out of a CFT gun of the right size.[/quote]
I would say 'no'.
My reasoning is three parts
1) I believe that the CFT weapons have lenses inside them which is why a CFT gun gets better range than a non-CFT gun.
2) Is that as you stated they go out of their way to tell us what happens when you fire the wrong ammunition the one way... that would suggest that the lack of information on the other way is an intentional "can not".
And
3) If it COULD fire both rounds that would be a very useful feature that would seem to be worth noting (especially given the wide variety of specialty rounds available)
These three things when combined lead me to conclude that the CFT weapons are, infact functionally laser pistols and only look like revolvers.[/quote]If the gun had lenses, wouldn't that alsobe worth mentioning? That line of reasoning doesn't seem to jive with the guns having kick, either, nor with the Calvary man's talk of the cartidge propelling the blast.

To your 2nd point, I don't see the lack of information suggesting that it can't be done. On the contrary, we are told that the CFT rounds need to be fired from a MDC gun. If the gun is MDC, I can't see how firing sdc rounds woukd cause it any problems.

I'd rule the same way that RockJock's group has.

[Mack]

I'd allow it. (Along with Big Bore revolvers as well.)

[SpiritInterface]

From my reading, I would say yes but they would have be something like a .45 long colt round.

[ShadowLogan]

Text doesn't really say. It could really go either way. On the one hand the "Calvaryman" suggests it's possible sense the E-6 cartiridge's discharged energy bolt is "propelled", but then you have the "Rangemaster" which can switch between E-6 and "conventional e-clips" with nothing more than the flick of a switch.

So if I was basing it on the "Calvaryman" alone I would have to say it could potentially fire, but if we go with just the "Rangemaster" it is modeled after a single barrel weapon that can switch between the two sources, which would seem to suggest it can't take the a regular bullet without damaging the stock laser. Almost like the E-6 is just standing in for the lasing medium of a regular laser...

Now looking at both weapons, it may come down to specific models with some being capable and others not.

[Blue_Lion]

Text doesn't really say. It could really go either way. On the one hand the "Calvaryman" suggests it's possible sense the E-6 cartiridge's discharged energy bolt is "propelled", but then you have the "Rangemaster" which can switch between E-6 and "conventional e-clips" with nothing more than the flick of a switch.

So if I was basing it on the "Calvaryman" alone I would have to say it could potentially fire, but if we go with just the "Rangemaster" it is modeled after a single barrel weapon that can switch between the two sources, which would seem to suggest it can't take the a regular bullet without damaging the stock laser. Almost like the E-6 is just standing in for the lasing medium of a regular laser...

Now looking at both weapons, it may come down to specific models with some being capable and others not.

I would say yes it should be theoritically possible but ranges may not be the same.

As to the range master while use wise might be just flicking a switch I think function wise there is more into it. Even with just one barrel a compact compact energy weapon could be moved into the chamber to fire the eclip. It could also be the switch moves part of the bolt to allow energy discharge.(Elips are not percussion firing weapons like the CTF rounds.)

[RockJock]

I always took the Rangmaster as being both a CFT and regular light laser rifle. basically two weapons/two emitters in one frame. Just the way I always pictured it.

[dreicunan]

Text doesn't really say. It could really go either way. On the one hand the "Calvaryman" suggests it's possible sense the E-6 cartiridge's discharged energy bolt is "propelled", but then you have the "Rangemaster" which can switch between E-6 and "conventional e-clips" with nothing more than the flick of a switch.

So if I was basing it on the "Calvaryman" alone I would have to say it could potentially fire, but if we go with just the "Rangemaster" it is modeled after a single barrel weapon that can switch between the two sources, which would seem to suggest it can't take the a regular bullet without damaging the stock laser. Almost like the E-6 is just standing in for the lasing medium of a regular laser...

Now looking at both weapons, it may come down to specific models with some being capable and others not.

I always assumed that they meant the Winchester Model 1876 Rifle, not the Carbine. That was single barrel but had a tube magazine. The tube magazine could easily be the laser (the gun only holds six cft cartridges, so no need for the full magazine length to hold that many rounds.

[ShadowLogan]

As to the range master while use wise might be just flicking a switch I think function wise there is more into it. Even with just one barrel a compact compact energy weapon could be moved into the chamber to fire the eclip. It could also be the switch moves part of the bolt to allow energy discharge.(Elips are not percussion firing weapons like the CTF rounds.)

I agree there probably is more internally going on with the Rangemaster with that flick of a switch, but the text really doesn't state what leaving it as pure speculation.

I always assumed that they meant the Winchester Model 1876 Rifle, not the Carbine. That was single barrel but had a tube magazine. The tube magazine could easily be the laser (the gun only holds six cft cartridges, so no need for the full magazine length to hold that many rounds.

Nothing in the text indicates how this is setup, leaving it to pure speculation. I don't think we know for sure if its an over/under weaponsetup or a moving "firing chambers".

[eliakon]

Pretty simple question. New West talks about firing CFT bullets out or a SDC handgun and a change of blowing it up, but in a quick look I didn't see the reverse. In my games we have always allowed a sdc bullet to fire out of a CFT gun of the right size.

I would say 'no'.
My reasoning is three parts
1) I believe that the CFT weapons have lenses inside them which is why a CFT gun gets better range than a non-CFT gun.
2) Is that as you stated they go out of their way to tell us what happens when you fire the wrong ammunition the one way... that would suggest that the lack of information on the other way is an intentional "can not".
And
3) If it COULD fire both rounds that would be a very useful feature that would seem to be worth noting (especially given the wide variety of specialty rounds available)
These three things when combined lead me to conclude that the CFT weapons are, infact functionally laser pistols and only look like revolvers.

If the gun had lenses, wouldn't that alsobe worth mentioning? That line of reasoning doesn't seem to jive with the guns having kick, either, nor with the Calvary man's talk of the cartidge propelling the blast.

Why would they mention the lenses?
No other laser weapon in the game mentions its lenses and yet they are there. We KNOW they are there because the Wilks modification that soups up those lenses...
As for the kick, that is because the CFT cartridges are explicitly chemical lasers. The kick is the chemicals going off that provide the energy for the lasing. The idea behind this is not new in the real world, just in Rifts.

To your 2nd point, I don't see the lack of information suggesting that it can't be done. On the contrary, we are told that the CFT rounds need to be fired from a MDC gun. If the gun is MDC, I can't see how firing sdc rounds woukd cause it any problems.

Right, and thats my point.
They go to lengths to tell us the interactions of these with normal weapons...
And on the legal interactions there is noticeably absent the ability to fire actual bullets from laser guns

And of course there is #3 which is the biggie for me.
Every other weapon in the game that can fire non-standard ammunition has that capability explicitly spelled out in the weapon. The lack of that spelling out, and the fact that it would be a HUGE perk...tells me that they do not have the ability.

[Blue_Lion]

Pretty simple question. New West talks about firing CFT bullets out or a SDC handgun and a change of blowing it up, but in a quick look I didn't see the reverse. In my games we have always allowed a sdc bullet to fire out of a CFT gun of the right size.

I would say 'no'.
My reasoning is three parts
1) I believe that the CFT weapons have lenses inside them which is why a CFT gun gets better range than a non-CFT gun.
2) Is that as you stated they go out of their way to tell us what happens when you fire the wrong ammunition the one way... that would suggest that the lack of information on the other way is an intentional "can not".
And
3) If it COULD fire both rounds that would be a very useful feature that would seem to be worth noting (especially given the wide variety of specialty rounds available)
These three things when combined lead me to conclude that the CFT weapons are, infact functionally laser pistols and only look like revolvers.

If the gun had lenses, wouldn't that alsobe worth mentioning? That line of reasoning doesn't seem to jive with the guns having kick, either, nor with the Calvary man's talk of the cartidge propelling the blast.

Why would they mention the lenses?
No other laser weapon in the game mentions its lenses and yet they are there. We KNOW they are there because the Wilks modification that soups up those lenses...
As for the kick, that is because the CFT cartridges are explicitly chemical lasers. The kick is the chemicals going off that provide the energy for the lasing. The idea behind this is not new in the real world, just in Rifts.

To your 2nd point, I don't see the lack of information suggesting that it can't be done. On the contrary, we are told that the CFT rounds need to be fired from a MDC gun. If the gun is MDC, I can't see how firing sdc rounds woukd cause it any problems.

Right, and thats my point.
They go to lengths to tell us the interactions of these with normal weapons...
And on the legal interactions there is noticeably absent the ability to fire actual bullets from laser guns

And of course there is #3 which is the biggie for me.
Every other weapon in the game that can fire non-standard ammunition has that capability explicitly spelled out in the weapon. The lack of that spelling out, and the fact that it would be a HUGE perk...tells me that they do not have the ability.

Wait no other laser weapon? Where does it state a CTF is a laser weapon. We know it is a energy based attack that blows up normal sdc guns. That indicates a explosive force is present, unless I am missing something that does not sound like a laser. If it was a energy explosion capable of damaging solid objects I would think a lens blocking the exit would get destroyed or damaged by the force released. (normal guns use explosives to propell a projectile so for a round to blow one up means it has a significant amount of explosive force)

There are lots of plausible reasons for the difference in range not linked to the need of some sort of lens. (nature of projectile/attack, speed of attack travels, quality of weapon.....)

[ShadowLogan]

Wait no other laser weapon? Where does it state a CTF is a laser weapon. We know it is a energy based attack that blows up normal sdc guns. That indicates a explosive force is present, unless I am missing something that does not sound like a laser. If it was a energy explosion capable of damaging solid objects I would think a lens blocking the exit would get destroyed or damaged by the force released. (normal guns use explosives to propell a projectile so for a round to blow one up means it has a significant amount of explosive force)

There are lots of plausible reasons for the difference in range not linked to the need of some sort of lens. (nature of projectile/attack, speed of attack travels, quality of weapon.....)

I don't think it is stated anywhere that CFT is a laser weapon, but is inferred given Wilk's specialty.

I will point out that X-Ray lasers operate via explosive (nuclear), and they are part of the setting (see Mutants in Orbit, Killer Satellite weapons). So are Chemical Lasers, though recoil force isn't mentioned w/re to the chem-lasers (which are available in man-portable systems) IIRC. So I am not saying that CFT is an X-Ray Laser, but am saying that in terms of basic operations it works like an X-Ray laser from a certain POV (ie it uses an explosion to generate the laser pulse).

The only other alternatives are that CFT is a plasma (we know is possible from Naruni) or some other un-described energy attack in the setting (rare, but IINM they do exist with energy weapons that go unclassified in terms of laser/ion/particle/plasma/etc).

[Blue_Lion]

Wait no other laser weapon? Where does it state a CTF is a laser weapon. We know it is a energy based attack that blows up normal sdc guns. That indicates a explosive force is present, unless I am missing something that does not sound like a laser. If it was a energy explosion capable of damaging solid objects I would think a lens blocking the exit would get destroyed or damaged by the force released. (normal guns use explosives to propell a projectile so for a round to blow one up means it has a significant amount of explosive force)

There are lots of plausible reasons for the difference in range not linked to the need of some sort of lens. (nature of projectile/attack, speed of attack travels, quality of weapon.....)

I don't think it is stated anywhere that CFT is a laser weapon, but is inferred given Wilk's specialty.

I will point out that X-Ray lasers operate via explosive (nuclear), and they are part of the setting (see Mutants in Orbit, Killer Satellite weapons). So are Chemical Lasers, though recoil force isn't mentioned w/re to the chem-lasers (which are available in man-portable systems) IIRC. So I am not saying that CFT is an X-Ray Laser, but am saying that in terms of basic operations it works like an X-Ray laser from a certain POV (ie it uses an explosion to generate the laser pulse).

The only other alternatives are that CFT is a plasma (we know is possible from Naruni) or some other un-described energy attack in the setting (rare, but IINM they do exist with energy weapons that go unclassified in terms of laser/ion/particle/plasma/etc).

I could have sworn that CFT where a departure from Wilk's specialty. It seam to me to be described as such. (so i see no reason to assume it is a laser based)

The x-ray laser operates if I remember right by channeling the energy from a critical nuclear reactor. So the explosion is a side affect that happens after the laser fires, not something that fires the laser.

I see nothing that indicates they are a laser and the assumption is based on the idea that wilk's only makes lasers seams flawed to me.

[eliakon]

My understanding is that there is a form of chemical laser in which the chemical medium is subjected to rapid chemical reactions (essentially a small chemical explosion) with the energy of said reaction providing the energy to lase.

This is the basis for chemical combustion style lasers that are seen in several game worlds not just RIFTS.

Thus it would be a laser (Wilks appears to ONLY make laser products) but a radical departure from the normal kinds of lasers that make up the rest of the laser market.

It would ALSO provide for what the energy beam IS.
The options are Laser, Ion, Plasma, Particle Beam, or one of the rare exotics.
-If it was a Plasma weapon then I am dubious of the idea that it there would be no mention of the similarity to Naruni, and of course plasma weapons are always called out because of the extremely common defense "take half damage from fire/heat" which applies to plasma
-Particle Beams are supposed to be big and bulky and take up a LOT of space. Until the latest power creep PB pistols were considered to be super rare (Japan is the first source and claimed that they were the only ones on the planet that had achieved the feat)
-Ion bolt is a vague possibility, though require a lot more handwavium.
-Or of course... lasers. Which are the specialty of the manufacturer to the point that Wilks ONLY sells lasers and optics. They have an actual real world principle to explain their purpose, and are also not only the most common from of energy weapon in the game but the only ones to come in ultra miniaturized forms routinely. AND it being a laser and thus needing lenses neatly explains why the range of a CFT fired out of the wrong weapon has half range... the lack of said lenses.

From this it would seem to be fairly clear that CFT cartridges are in fact lasers.

[Blue_Lion]

Got it you want it to be a laser and not a the undefined energy type it is. Why because you think the company that makes it only makes lasers.

I disagree by the book it is a unidentified type of energy. There is zero text in the book that implies it is a laser, the text does say that it is a departure from what wilk's normally makes.

We do not have sufficient information on them to assign them a canonical type and there is nothing that indicates they have to be lasers.

Claims that they are laser are just your opinion and not fact. The fact is they are a undefined type of energy the fact it is not defined means that it might not have ever been assigned a type of energy. As lasers are subject to known in game effects (GB armor and a few super powers) if it was shooting lasers it would be worth mentioning for that reason.

**Given the fact we are not told it is lasers and know lasers are affected by certain things being a laser would be note worthy.***

[eliakon]

Got it you want it to be a laser and not a the undefined energy type it is. Why because you think the company that makes it only makes lasers.

I disagree by the book it is a unidentified type of energy. There is zero text in the book that implies it is a laser, the text does say that it is a departure from what wilk's normally makes.

We do not have sufficient information on them to assign them a canonical type and there is nothing that indicates they have to be lasers.

Claims that they are laser are just your opinion and not fact. The fact is they are a undefined type of energy the fact it is not defined means that it might not have ever been assigned a type of energy. As lasers are subject to known in game effects (GB armor and a few super powers) if it was shooting lasers it would be worth mentioning for that reason.

**Given the fact we are not told it is lasers and know lasers are affected by certain things being a laser would be note worthy.***

What we DO know with out any doubt is that CFT guns are instrumental in making the energy be able to extend to range.
We also know that they went to pains to tell us what the canon result of using a CFT in another gun is but that they were totally silent on the issue of the reverse...
And that there is no example of a multi-amunition weapon in the game that does not have that feature spelled out.
And of course there is the fact that if these were 'just' MDC guns they would not have to be the very expensive CFT models...

So we have 3 known facts and a huge body of circumstantial evidence for them being lasers.
That is up against... Ummm "I want to be able to get more utility out of a weapon than the book says it does, so I want to add on a new capability that is not stated or even suggested at anywhere in canon"

I know where I would stand on that sort of thing.

Now yes, a GM can house rule what ever they like...
...but there is zero canon support for the claim that CFT weapons are just MDC versions of normal guns, and a lot of support for the opposite.

[Blue_Lion]

Got it you want it to be a laser and not a the undefined energy type it is. Why because you think the company that makes it only makes lasers.

I disagree by the book it is a unidentified type of energy. There is zero text in the book that implies it is a laser, the text does say that it is a departure from what wilk's normally makes.

We do not have sufficient information on them to assign them a canonical type and there is nothing that indicates they have to be lasers.

Claims that they are laser are just your opinion and not fact. The fact is they are a undefined type of energy the fact it is not defined means that it might not have ever been assigned a type of energy. As lasers are subject to known in game effects (GB armor and a few super powers) if it was shooting lasers it would be worth mentioning for that reason.

**Given the fact we are not told it is lasers and know lasers are affected by certain things being a laser would be note worthy.***

What we DO know with out any doubt is that CFT guns are instrumental in making the energy be able to extend to range.
We also know that they went to pains to tell us what the canon result of using a CFT in another gun is but that they were totally silent on the issue of the reverse...
And that there is no example of a multi-amunition weapon in the game that does not have that feature spelled out.
And of course there is the fact that if these were 'just' MDC guns they would not have to be the very expensive CFT models...

So we have 3 known facts and a huge body of circumstantial evidence for them being lasers.
That is up against... Ummm "I want to be able to get more utility out of a weapon than the book says it does, so I want to add on a new capability that is not stated or even suggested at anywhere in canon"

I know where I would stand on that sort of thing.

Now yes, a GM can house rule what ever they like...
...but there is zero canon support for the claim that CFT weapons are just MDC versions of normal guns, and a lot of support for the opposite.

None of your three facts support them being lasers.
And on the cost if they where just MD guns then they would be very expensive.(so that is one easy "fact" to dispute.)
This whole topic is because they only addressed it one way so he asked for opinions. That is no evidence of them being lasers.

As to your evidence of them being lasers seam to be focused on the fact that they are made by Wilks as no other book evidence of evidence of being lasers has been provided.

This is not about me wanting them to have more abilities than stated as if they can shoot normal rounds would be a GM call but the fact nothing in their write up indicates they are lasers. A laser would to me be something highly worth knowing something was.

I simply stating as written they are a undefined type of energy used to inflict MD. Basically MD energy weapons.

[eliakon]

Got it you want it to be a laser and not a the undefined energy type it is. Why because you think the company that makes it only makes lasers.

I disagree by the book it is a unidentified type of energy. There is zero text in the book that implies it is a laser, the text does say that it is a departure from what wilk's normally makes.

We do not have sufficient information on them to assign them a canonical type and there is nothing that indicates they have to be lasers.

Claims that they are laser are just your opinion and not fact. The fact is they are a undefined type of energy the fact it is not defined means that it might not have ever been assigned a type of energy. As lasers are subject to known in game effects (GB armor and a few super powers) if it was shooting lasers it would be worth mentioning for that reason.

**Given the fact we are not told it is lasers and know lasers are affected by certain things being a laser would be note worthy.***

What we DO know with out any doubt is that CFT guns are instrumental in making the energy be able to extend to range.
We also know that they went to pains to tell us what the canon result of using a CFT in another gun is but that they were totally silent on the issue of the reverse...
And that there is no example of a multi-amunition weapon in the game that does not have that feature spelled out.
And of course there is the fact that if these were 'just' MDC guns they would not have to be the very expensive CFT models...

So we have 3 known facts and a huge body of circumstantial evidence for them being lasers.
That is up against... Ummm "I want to be able to get more utility out of a weapon than the book says it does, so I want to add on a new capability that is not stated or even suggested at anywhere in canon"

I know where I would stand on that sort of thing.

Now yes, a GM can house rule what ever they like...
...but there is zero canon support for the claim that CFT weapons are just MDC versions of normal guns, and a lot of support for the opposite.

None of your three facts support them being lasers.
And on the cost if they where just MD guns then they would be very expensive.(so that is one easy "fact" to dispute.)
This whole topic is because they only addressed it one way so he asked for opinions. That is no evidence of them being lasers.

As to your evidence of them being lasers seam to be focused on the fact that they are made by Wilks as no other book evidence of evidence of being lasers has been provided.

This is not about me wanting them to have more abilities than stated as if they can shoot normal rounds would be a GM call but the fact nothing in their write up indicates they are lasers. A laser would to me be something highly worth knowing something was.

I simply stating as written they are a undefined type of energy used to inflict MD. Basically MD energy weapons.

Since there isn't a generic "energy" (outside of a specific super power) it would seem that they are, in fact, some specific sort of energy.
The question of which energy it is would seem to be strongly circumstantially be that they are lasers.

However, that is tangental to the main issue which is there is no support for them being able to use anything BUT CFTs

[Blue_Lion]

Got it you want it to be a laser and not a the undefined energy type it is. Why because you think the company that makes it only makes lasers.

I disagree by the book it is a unidentified type of energy. There is zero text in the book that implies it is a laser, the text does say that it is a departure from what wilk's normally makes.

We do not have sufficient information on them to assign them a canonical type and there is nothing that indicates they have to be lasers.

Claims that they are laser are just your opinion and not fact. The fact is they are a undefined type of energy the fact it is not defined means that it might not have ever been assigned a type of energy. As lasers are subject to known in game effects (GB armor and a few super powers) if it was shooting lasers it would be worth mentioning for that reason.

**Given the fact we are not told it is lasers and know lasers are affected by certain things being a laser would be note worthy.***

What we DO know with out any doubt is that CFT guns are instrumental in making the energy be able to extend to range.
We also know that they went to pains to tell us what the canon result of using a CFT in another gun is but that they were totally silent on the issue of the reverse...
And that there is no example of a multi-amunition weapon in the game that does not have that feature spelled out.
And of course there is the fact that if these were 'just' MDC guns they would not have to be the very expensive CFT models...

So we have 3 known facts and a huge body of circumstantial evidence for them being lasers.
That is up against... Ummm "I want to be able to get more utility out of a weapon than the book says it does, so I want to add on a new capability that is not stated or even suggested at anywhere in canon"

I know where I would stand on that sort of thing.

Now yes, a GM can house rule what ever they like...
...but there is zero canon support for the claim that CFT weapons are just MDC versions of normal guns, and a lot of support for the opposite.

None of your three facts support them being lasers.
And on the cost if they where just MD guns then they would be very expensive.(so that is one easy "fact" to dispute.)
This whole topic is because they only addressed it one way so he asked for opinions. That is no evidence of them being lasers.

As to your evidence of them being lasers seam to be focused on the fact that they are made by Wilks as no other book evidence of evidence of being lasers has been provided.

This is not about me wanting them to have more abilities than stated as if they can shoot normal rounds would be a GM call but the fact nothing in their write up indicates they are lasers. A laser would to me be something highly worth knowing something was.

I simply stating as written they are a undefined type of energy used to inflict MD. Basically MD energy weapons.

Since there isn't a generic "energy" (outside of a specific super power) it would seem that they are, in fact, some specific sort of energy.
The question of which energy it is would seem to be strongly circumstantially be that they are lasers.

However, that is tangental to the main issue which is there is no support for them being able to use anything BUT CFTs

Wait so you acknowledge there is a generic type of energy but stand amendment that they are not that even when the book does not define it. Instead you want to assign a type based on how you think they work. As they are not defined by the text and there is a type of energy that is undefined seams that is how they should be treated.

The whole laser topic is a tangent not related to if people think they could be. I think we can just agree that because the text does not tell us they can or can not if they can is up to the GM running the game.

[RockJock]

After rereading the CFT section in New West and a few other sections I agree that the book does not implicitly say they can fire conventional rounds. That being said, since they are the size of bullets, can be fired out of an SDC handgun(presumedly with the firing pin firing off the CFT round) with the only problem being the structural strength of the SDC handgun I don't see a reason they can't be backwards compatible. It doesn't unbalance anything, and gives another reason to carry a CFT pistol over a Remi.

I see it like firing a lower powered bullet out of a gun designed to take a higher powered round. For example a .357 Magnum revolver can fire a .38 Special or .38 Short with no problem.

On a sort of related note, I also reread the mention of Naruni Plasma rounds being used as simple mines in CWC. If a plasma cartridge can be setoff using a nails as a firing pin it makes even more sense to me that a CFT can as well.

[dreicunan]

@Eliakon: The cartridges produce a "blast." The blast is "propelled." We clearly are not dealing with a laser here. Ergo, no lenses.

The text says that they need to be fired from a special gun made from MD materials, as opposed to a conventional gun. Given that the CFT weapons follow the listing of remakes of classic western SDC guns, it is both possible, plausible, and reasonable to read that as meaning that the gun is special because it is made of MD materials. If the gun is sturdy enough to fire an e-6 cartridge, it is certainly sturdy enough to fire a SDC round. The ability to do so is suggested by the book telling us their size relative to standard rounds and making it clear that you can try to fire the round from the conventional weapon. If an E-6 cartridge can be chambered in a conventional weapon, it stands to reason that the rounds for the conventional weapon can be chambered in the CFT weapon.

Note that Wilks is listed as one of the manufacturers of the those conventional SDC revolvers. Also, see their laser with a grenade launcher in the same book. So we already knew that Wilks makes more than just lasers from the prior pages, thus putting to bed the idea that CFT would need to be laser because that is all Wilks does.

Also, do you have different prices than my version of WB14? The sdc guns are often running around 1000 credits. The CFT line ranges from 4400-8800, with the Rangemaster costing 20k, but that one has a conventional laser in it as well. I don't see the guns can be considered expensive. Heck, the books cites them as being comparatively inexpensive!

[ShadowLogan]

I could have sworn that CFT where a departure from Wilk's specialty. It seam to me to be described as such. (so i see no reason to assume it is a laser based)

Yes the are considered a "revolutionary 'cartridge' energy weapon system" and "experimental (and very different) product' (pg 212 WB14). Nothing in the text really states what the energy blast IS, and I agree with that. However if I wanted to avoid "generic" energy damage...

In canon though there are only two energy weapon types known to use "cartridge" systems AFAIK: X-Ray Lasers (MiO) and Naruni Plasma Cartridges (Mercenaries, PW, NW2, SA1 off the top of my head). Naruni Plasma Cartridges are specifically said "cannot be duplicated with Earth technology" (Mercenaries pg122 NE-10 text), which likely rules out Plasma. That really only leaves us with some type of laser in canon.

The x-ray laser operates if I remember right by channeling the energy from a critical nuclear reactor. So the explosion is a side affect that happens after the laser fires, not something that fires the laser.

You remember incorrectly. "X-Ray lasers use a nuclear explosion to generate a short but incredibly intesnse beam of focused X-Rays, which is fired a fraction of second before the explosion destroys the laser" (MiO pga86 Killer Satellite section, the Kill Sat. has a multi-shot payload).

Now as I said the CFT could operate like an X-Ray laser. Weather it is an X-Ray frequency or not I am not going to say, but I am saying it could be a laser designed to operate like an X-Ray laser. Your point about laser resistance is valid, but there are two possible ways around it and to avoid confusion...:
-1. As a pure laser (hypothetically), the Frequency of a CFT might be such that it is not subject to normal laser resistance. We know Chromium Armor has ~13 frequencies (SB1o pg7, NWpg206-7 Wilk's 557 VFALR states 24frequencies) it is vulnerable to. So laser resistance may have a frequency range, and this laser is out of that range and the range of other "laser resistance" properties
-2. CFT energy is "composite" of different types, and therefore not subject to normal classification handling (ex. Arkhons in SA2 and their Tri-Beam energy weapons that combine a laser and two other energy weapons into a single package).

If the gun is sturdy enough to fire an e-6 cartridge, it is certainly sturdy enough to fire a SDC round. The ability to do so is suggested by the book telling us their size relative to standard rounds and making it clear that you can try to fire the round from the conventional weapon. If an E-6 cartridge can be chambered in a conventional weapon, it stands to reason that the rounds for the conventional weapon can be chambered in the CFT weapon.

While we are told the relative size of the cartridges, and can be interchanged one way. There are a few points that suggest it is only one way:
1. The CFT weapons only look like their name sakes, so there could be differences internally that prevent the SDC round from working
2. When successfully fired from a conventional weapon the Range is 1/2. At the very least this suggests the possibility the CFT weapon is interacting with the discharge for increased range, which means that internally the weapons may not be identical and just made from different grade materials. Ex. if the internal barrel diameter is smaller than the SDC counter part, and SDC round would not be able to travel down the barrel of a CFT gun but you might not notice it just by looking. This example though isn't stated and is pure speculation.

Also, do you have different prices than my version of WB14? The sdc guns are often running around 1000 credits. The CFT line ranges from 4400-8800, with the Rangemaster costing 20k, but that one has a conventional laser in it as well. I don't see the guns can be considered expensive. Heck, the books cites them as being comparatively inexpensive!

I don't think the CFT are supposed to "inexpensive" compared to an SDC weapon (they are after all more), but rather compared to their similarly styled laser remakes that use Eclips (which run from 12-27k for their pistols and 18-38k for their rifles)

[dreicunan]

@ShadowLogan: There "could be" internal differences, or the reason that the range is shortened is because the explosion isn't as well contained by conventional SDC firearm and thus can't direct the energy to propel the blast as far. There is no need to assume that there is any other difference other than that the CFT line of guns is made from MD materials.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Wilks occasionally incorporates other weapon types into their fire-arms (other than lasers) but it is .. hinted heavily, if not outright stated, that those are bought-in - Wilk's doesn't make them. An under-slung grenade launcher, for instance, could simply be bought from NG in bulk. Same with the one that has an under-mounted particle beam.

The CFT weapons are clearly intended to be laser weapons. It isn't stated, of course (like a lot of things in Rifts), but its the clear intention (since we KNOW they aren't plasma - earth tech cannot make those, we're told outright) that they are lasers.

Chemically-fired lasers are a thing. It's actually the focus of Real Genius (for those of you old enough or hip enough to have seen that movie) - they couldn't get the laser up to power with traditional means, and "accidentally" stumbled on a way to chemically lase, which made it quite a bit more powerful. The lasers the army was developing in the late 80s and early 90s to shoot down ICBMs (which worked, btw) were chemical lasers, as was the one the air force was looking to mount on jumbo jets.

CFT cartridges are most likely just a chemical laser, with a focusing lens on one end.

As for why the CFT guns fire further than the CFT rounds in an SDC gun - there are a pair of easy answers, one of which being its an MDC structure and deals with the forces involved better, the other being that the barrel is likely magnetically lensed. (As are most other lasers in Rifts; the likelihood of military-grade lasers having physical lenses built in as an additional potential point of failure is very low; there's no particular benefit, as the power needed to form the magnetic lensing isn't very high and can be drawn off of the power of the cartridge or e-clip without issue).

Magnetic lensing also wouldn't prevent traditional SDC bullets from firing out of a CFT gun.

There are some other issues, those mostly being about cartridge size. A CFT cartridge might fire fine out of any revolver/SDC weapon that can fit the cartridge since there is no bullet actually going down the barrel. A CFT -gun-, however, probably has a smooth ceramic barrel with no rifling, and if the bullet itself (not the cartridge) doesn't have any rifling to engage with, it may tumble or just destroy the interior of the barrel (unlikely in this case because its an MDC structure) which would make it sub-par, but i dont see any particular reason the right caliber wouldn't fire out of a CFT gun - maybe with shorter range due to no rifling, but it should still work. The only other thing might be that the firing pin in a CFT gun is specifically set to CFT cartridges and may not fire a traditional round (whereas the firing pin in an SDC weapon may be longer or more suited to firing both types of rounds).

But i dont really see any reason NOT to allow it. Get the right caliber, call it a day. It just makes the gun actually worth owning, in that it is more versatile (SDC and MD weapon in the same package). Right now, no adventurer is going to own one if he has any sense; the ammo is more expensive in the long run than simply buying a traditional Wilk's pistol and a few e-Clips. And the damage and range are sub-par compared to said pistol as well.

However, they make a great deal of sense for non-adventurers in the New West; buying a CFT gun itself is a LOT cheaper, and you dont need to buy hundreds or thousands of rounds to defend your homestead - so in the long run, for that kind of owner, they make a lot of sense.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Agree with most of this (see my above post) but..

-Particle Beams are supposed to be big and bulky and take up a LOT of space. Until the latest power creep PB pistols were considered to be super rare (Japan is the first source and claimed that they were the only ones on the planet that had achieved the feat)

Ermmm... perhaps chronologically, as Japan had them Pre-Rifts, but in terms of books... nope. WB5, Triax has a fairly powerful PB pistol. NG had one shortly thereafter, as well (mind you, its nearly the size of a small rifle or submachinegun) - which is fair since its stated that other than Triax, the only company really doing any work on Particle Beams is NG.

There still aren't that many of them (i think FQ now makes a legit knock-off of the Triax design, Triax has a slightly newer one as of Triax 2, and NG still has the NG-P5) though.

Not that i think CFT is a particle beam. It isn't.

-Or of course... lasers. Which are the specialty of the manufacturer to the point that Wilks ONLY sells lasers and optics.

Lasers, optics, and nearly all of the basic electronics (circuit boards, capacitors, etc) that every other manufacturer uses. This is stated in Aftermath, i believe, right after the "The CS has made Wilks weapons illegal in CS territory" - it goes on to mention that Wlks doesn't really care because it makes WAY more money off of the CS by providing the electronics that go into pretty much every robot, tank, vehicle, and PA that the CS makes.

[Khanibal]

This post will solve nothing

The write up specifically says that the CFT weapons have a recoil. Therefore something is ejected forward to generate the kick. Laser weapons usually have no kick, but it could be excited gases from a chemical. The write up also states the CFT should maintain it's charge for a long time and notes , at the time of publication, that they've been on the market for six years already. Mercenaries was originally published in 1994 and New West in 1997. So it's safe to assume NW post dates Mercenaries. Reading about NE in Mercenaries, it's clear NE has been in contact for a while. Finally, what do we really know about Wilks?

The only thing we can conclusively say about the CFT weapons if that something is ejected out the front, 'cause that's the law (of thermodynamics).

[dreicunan]

Wilks occasionally incorporates other weapon types into their fire-arms (other than lasers) but it is .. hinted heavily, if not outright stated, that those are bought-in - Wilk's doesn't make them. An under-slung grenade launcher, for instance, could simply be bought from NG in bulk. Same with the one that has an under-mounted particle beam.

DO you have a quote for where that is hinted. I can somewhat buy it for the grenade launcher, but much less for the particle beam.

I'd also once again reference WB14, page 210, were Wilks is listed amongst the manufacturers of conventional SDC firearms. There is no doubt that they manufacture non-laser weapons. That they do manufacture these weapons makes me see it as more likely that they make the grenade launcher and particle beam themselves.

The CFT weapons are clearly intended to be laser weapons. It isn't stated, of course (like a lot of things in Rifts), but its the clear intention (since we KNOW they aren't plasma - earth tech cannot make those, we're told outright) that they are lasers.

I respectfully disagree that CFT line weapons are clearly intended to be laser weapons due to the language used to describe what they produce. The E-6 cartridge produces a "blast." From the Calvaryman Rifle entry: "The tiny cartridges just don't hold enough power to propel the blast any great distance." (WB14, p. 213) The blast is propelled out of the gun. That does not sound like a description of a laser beam.

I appreciate the note on magnetic lensing; that wasn't an angle that I had considered.

[Blue_Lion]

Ok is being a laser worth noting?

There are well known things in rifts that have a special defense against lasers. So would something intended to be a laser be worth noting?

The CFT is one of the few energy weapons that to my knowledge does not have any thing classifying it as a type of energy.(That is why I classify it as undefined.)

Note: time line in rifts does not advance as fast it does in real life. The first advance in game time line that I know of was aftermath. Even though the books where written 4 years apart they are the same point in game time line.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The E-6 cartridge produces a "blast." From the Calvaryman Rifle entry: "The tiny cartridges just don't hold enough power to propel the blast any great distance." (WB14, p. 213) The blast is propelled out of the gun. That does not sound like a description of a laser beam.

How many hundreds of laser weapons in Rifts that say they fire laser "blasts" do you want me to page reference for you? Being totally serious. Almost ALL of them fire "blasts".

Heck, ill just start with the book i had open on my side-table right this second:

CWC (WB12):

CP-30 Pistol: "7 pulse blasts"
C-10 Rifle: "20 blasts from a standard E-Clip"
C-12 Rifle: "20 M.D. blasts from standard E-Clip"
C-14 Rifle: "Laser is 20 blasts"
CP-40, CP-50 Rifles: "21 blasts" and later "30 blasts"
CV-212: "21 blasts (7 pulse) per standard E-Clip, 30 blasts (10 pulse) per long E-clip"

Would you like me to go on?

[Blue_Lion]

The E-6 cartridge produces a "blast." From the Calvaryman Rifle entry: "The tiny cartridges just don't hold enough power to propel the blast any great distance." (WB14, p. 213) The blast is propelled out of the gun. That does not sound like a description of a laser beam.

How many hundreds of laser weapons in Rifts that say they fire laser "blasts" do you want me to page reference for you? Being totally serious. Almost ALL of them fire "blasts".

How many laser weapons do not have the word laser some where in their write up, and what are they to inform us they are lasers?

Looking in the GMG-we are told the Wilk's-Remi 104 Derringer that the remi line look like old west guns but are lasers. The Wilk's-Remi 130 "Six Shooter." lacks the word laser but is intended to be a laser based of the 104 derringer.

What i find interesting is the range master does more damage with the CTF but has better range with the laser. (If they where both lasers would the more powerful laser not have the same range?)
The Wilk's 210 "Pocket Pistol is never stated as a laser.


Out of the weapons in the GMG those two (not counting CTF for this because that is under debate) where the cases I could find of clear intent of laser weapons lacking the word laser in the write up. 1 we know is a laser weapon because we are told it is a line of laser weapons in another write up. The 210 seams to be just missing a energy type(something unusual in rifts energy weapon write up).

Given that it would seam for multiple weapons intended to be laser based in the same line to lack the designation as such to be a bit out of line with PB publishing style.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

This post will solve nothing

The write up specifically says that the CFT weapons have a recoil. Therefore something is ejected forward to generate the kick.

Because its a chemical laser. There is a chemical reaction that causes the lasing.

Laser weapons usually have no kick,

One of the many thing that Rifts gets unequivocally wrong, as every military-grade laser we've ever managed to make in reality has had a kick. Rifts also says lasers are silent (they aren't remotely). But even if what we are told by Rifts is true (that they have somehow made military grade lasers that are absolutely silent with no kick), that doesn't mean that CFT lasers would be either - as the "standard" laser in Rifts is clearly NOT a Chemical laser.

but it could be excited gases from a chemical. The write up also states the CFT should maintain it's charge for a long time and notes , at the time of publication, that they've been on the market for six years already. Mercenaries was originally published in 1994 and New West in 1997. So it's safe to assume NW post dates Mercenaries.

No, it isn't. The books aren't published in chronological anything. Both New West and Mercenaries assume 104/105 PA, just like everything else until Siege on Tolkeen moves up the timeline and Aftermath cements it. Only the books published *after* Aftermath assume a later timeline, like the NG World Books and Triax 2, as an example, and a few of them are still relatively date-agnostic (D-bees, for instance, and Dino Swamp, though i think it DOES have a year stated in those books because of the expedition).

Reading about NE in Mercenaries, it's clear NE has been in contact for a while. Finally, what do we really know about Wilks?

Quite a bit, actually. We know generally where they are located, how they were founded, what they produce (lasers, optics, and basic electronic components used by every other manufacturer, up to and including most of the computer components in both NG and CS robots, vehicles, and PA) and that they *just* started pairing their laser weapons with other weapon types very very recently. We also know what they DONT make (plasma weapons, ion weapons, body armor, vehicles, etc).

They haven't had a "World Book: Wilk's" or anything, but we know a lot.

[dreicunan]

The E-6 cartridge produces a "blast." From the Calvaryman Rifle entry: "The tiny cartridges just don't hold enough power to propel the blast any great distance." (WB14, p. 213) The blast is propelled out of the gun. That does not sound like a description of a laser beam.

How many hundreds of laser weapons in Rifts that say they fire laser "blasts" do you want me to page reference for you? Being totally serious. Almost ALL of them fire "blasts".

Heck, ill just start with the book i had open on my side-table right this second:

CWC (WB12):

CP-30 Pistol: "7 pulse blasts"
C-10 Rifle: "20 blasts from a standard E-Clip"
C-12 Rifle: "20 M.D. blasts from standard E-Clip"
C-14 Rifle: "Laser is 20 blasts"
CP-40, CP-50 Rifles: "21 blasts" and later "30 blasts"
CV-212: "21 blasts (7 pulse) per standard E-Clip, 30 blasts (10 pulse) per long E-clip"

Would you like me to go on?

I would like you to go on. I didn't cite the word "blast," alone, as a reason for the objection. I noted that the E-6 cartridge produces a "blast," and that the Cavalryman rifle describes said blast as being "propelled out of the gun." So, how many of those descriptions say that the blast is "propelled"?

@Blue_Lion: That's a great point as well!

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The E-6 cartridge produces a "blast." From the Calvaryman Rifle entry: "The tiny cartridges just don't hold enough power to propel the blast any great distance." (WB14, p. 213) The blast is propelled out of the gun. That does not sound like a description of a laser beam.

How many hundreds of laser weapons in Rifts that say they fire laser "blasts" do you want me to page reference for you? Being totally serious. Almost ALL of them fire "blasts".

Heck, ill just start with the book i had open on my side-table right this second:

CWC (WB12):

CP-30 Pistol: "7 pulse blasts"
C-10 Rifle: "20 blasts from a standard E-Clip"
C-12 Rifle: "20 M.D. blasts from standard E-Clip"
C-14 Rifle: "Laser is 20 blasts"
CP-40, CP-50 Rifles: "21 blasts" and later "30 blasts"
CV-212: "21 blasts (7 pulse) per standard E-Clip, 30 blasts (10 pulse) per long E-clip"

Would you like me to go on?

I would like you to go on. I didn't cite the word "blast," alone, as a reason for the objection. I noted that the E-6 cartridge produces a "blast," and that the Cavalryman rifle describes said blast as being "propelled out of the gun." So, how many of those descriptions say that the blast is "propelled"?

This is where i get off this crazy train. Normally i'd post the ASCII Picard Facepalm here, but its not worth it. The amount of mental gymnastics you're doing to try to be right is absolutely olympics-worthy, to the point of being unable to have a conversation because no matter how much you're proven wrong, youll just do a metnal backflip and move the goalposts.

Warning: Discuss the subject, not the forum member. Warning issued. Mack

ALL lasers are "propelled" out of the barrel - same with particle beams, ion weapons, and plasma weapons. Otherwise, they wouldn't move. How many plasma weapons say their blasts are "propelled" out of the barrel? None, that i can find. Ion weapons? None. Rail guns? None in the books sitting here in my office. How about plain old regular guns... nope. Huh. By all means, though, grab that absurd technicality for all its worth and never let go.

@Blue_Lion: That's a great point as well!

I have him blocked, so i looked at his post because you said something about it.

He doesn't make a point. At all (not that this is uncommon).

There are rail guns that dont say they are rail guns in their description. There's a Particle Beam pistol in NG2 that doesn't say it is a particle beam pistol. Seriously. Those kind of omissions RIDDLE Palladium's books.

[dreicunan]

The E-6 cartridge produces a "blast." From the Calvaryman Rifle entry: "The tiny cartridges just don't hold enough power to propel the blast any great distance." (WB14, p. 213) The blast is propelled out of the gun. That does not sound like a description of a laser beam.

How many hundreds of laser weapons in Rifts that say they fire laser "blasts" do you want me to page reference for you? Being totally serious. Almost ALL of them fire "blasts".

Heck, ill just start with the book i had open on my side-table right this second:

CWC (WB12):

CP-30 Pistol: "7 pulse blasts"
C-10 Rifle: "20 blasts from a standard E-Clip"
C-12 Rifle: "20 M.D. blasts from standard E-Clip"
C-14 Rifle: "Laser is 20 blasts"
CP-40, CP-50 Rifles: "21 blasts" and later "30 blasts"
CV-212: "21 blasts (7 pulse) per standard E-Clip, 30 blasts (10 pulse) per long E-clip"

Would you like me to go on?

I would like you to go on. I didn't cite the word "blast," alone, as a reason for the objection. I noted that the E-6 cartridge produces a "blast," and that the Cavalryman rifle describes said blast as being "propelled out of the gun." So, how many of those descriptions say that the blast is "propelled"?

This is where i get off this crazy train. Normally i'd post the ASCII Picard Facepalm here, but its not worth it. The amount of mental gymnastics you're doing to try to be right is absolutely olympics-worthy, to the point of being unable to have a conversation because no matter how much you're proven wrong, youll just do a metnal backflip and move the goalposts.

ALL lasers are "propelled" out of the barrel - same with particle beams, ion weapons, and plasma weapons. Otherwise, they wouldn't move. How many plasma weapons say their blasts are "propelled" out of the barrel? None, that i can find.

@Blue_Lion: That's a great point as well!

I have him blocked, so i looked at his post because you said something about it.

He doesn't make a point. At all.

There are rail guns that dont say they are rail guns in their description. There's a Particle Beam pistol in NG2 that doesn't say it is a particle beam pistol. Seriously. Those kind of omissions RIDDLE Palladium's books.

I don't normally think of a laser (be it a beam or a blast) being propelled. I think of the beam as being generated. On the surface of things, the description did not sound to me like a description of a laser beam. Hence why I said that it did not sound like a description of a laser beam. You make a fair point; be it a beam or a blast, it is of course propelled in some way. Thus, I drop that language-based objection to it producing a laser.

In light of your earlier point about magnetic lensing, I can accept it as plausible that it produces a laser, but that still leaves the issue that it is never actually stated that it does (why couldn't it produce an ion blast, for example?).

Do you have a page on that particle beam pistol that doesn't mention that it is one? I've been unable to locate it.

[Blue_Lion]

The E-6 cartridge produces a "blast." From the Calvaryman Rifle entry: "The tiny cartridges just don't hold enough power to propel the blast any great distance." (WB14, p. 213) The blast is propelled out of the gun. That does not sound like a description of a laser beam.

How many hundreds of laser weapons in Rifts that say they fire laser "blasts" do you want me to page reference for you? Being totally serious. Almost ALL of them fire "blasts".

Heck, ill just start with the book i had open on my side-table right this second:

CWC (WB12):

CP-30 Pistol: "7 pulse blasts"
C-10 Rifle: "20 blasts from a standard E-Clip"
C-12 Rifle: "20 M.D. blasts from standard E-Clip"
C-14 Rifle: "Laser is 20 blasts"
CP-40, CP-50 Rifles: "21 blasts" and later "30 blasts"
CV-212: "21 blasts (7 pulse) per standard E-Clip, 30 blasts (10 pulse) per long E-clip"

Would you like me to go on?

I would like you to go on. I didn't cite the word "blast," alone, as a reason for the objection. I noted that the E-6 cartridge produces a "blast," and that the Cavalryman rifle describes said blast as being "propelled out of the gun." So, how many of those descriptions say that the blast is "propelled"?

This is where i get off this crazy train. Normally i'd post the ASCII Picard Facepalm here, but its not worth it. The amount of mental gymnastics you're doing to try to be right is absolutely olympics-worthy, to the point of being unable to have a conversation because no matter how much you're proven wrong, youll just do a metnal backflip and move the goalposts.

ALL lasers are "propelled" out of the barrel - same with particle beams, ion weapons, and plasma weapons. Otherwise, they wouldn't move. How many plasma weapons say their blasts are "propelled" out of the barrel? None, that i can find.

@Blue_Lion: That's a great point as well!

I have him blocked, so i looked at his post because you said something about it.

He doesn't make a point. At all.

There are rail guns that dont say they are rail guns in their description. There's a Particle Beam pistol in NG2 that doesn't say it is a particle beam pistol. Seriously. Those kind of omissions RIDDLE Palladium's books.

I don't normally think of a laser (be it a beam or a blast) being propelled. I think of the beam as being generated. On the surface of things, the description did not sound to me like a description of a laser beam. Hence why I said that it did not sound like a description of a laser beam. You make a fair point; be it a beam or a blast, it is of course propelled in some way. So I can drop that language based objection to it producing a laser.

In light of your earlier point about magnetic lensing, I can accept it as plausible that it produces a laser, but that still leaves the issue that it is never actually stated that it does (why couldn't it produce an ion blast, for example).

Do you have a page on that particle beam pistol that doesn't mention that it is one? I've been unable to locate it.

I would really like to know what rail guns do not say they are rail guns and how you know they are rail guns without them telling you in some manner, as well as how he knows it is a particle beam pistol if it did not tell him. (This seams a unsupported dismal)

Not agreeing with a point or its relevance is not the same as no point being made.

[ShadowLogan]

The write up specifically says that the CFT weapons have a recoil. Therefore something is ejected forward to generate the kick. Laser weapons usually have no kick, but it could be excited gases from a chemical. The write up also states the CFT should maintain it's charge for a long time and notes , at the time of publication, that they've been on the market for six years already. Mercenaries was originally published in 1994 and New West in 1997. So it's safe to assume NW post dates Mercenaries. Reading about NE in Mercenaries, it's clear NE has been in contact for a while. Finally, what do we really know about Wilks?

X-Ray lasers (MiO see a previous post of mine for citations) operate via explosive devices, which means we have a potential operating scheme for a laser that would also explain the recoil. I know we are told that after a CFT cartridge is fired there is only scrap left from the cartridge worth 25 credits and that you can't 'recharge" the E-6 round (Chemical Lasers in MiO can be recharged or are self-recharging).

Timeline wise Mercenaries and NW are in the same time frame (or closer to it than publishing dates would suggest). E-6 has been on the market for 6 years, but given the R&D time frame are much older. Mercenaries also suggests that Naruni hasn't been around that long on Rifts Earth-NA, their relationship with Robot Control (Merc Group) is about a year old (how long its taken their reputation to gather). So if Merc/NW are in the same year or close to it, it suggests the E-6 is likely older than NE presence on Rifts Earth IMHO.

I respectfully disagree that CFT line weapons are clearly intended to be laser weapons due to the language used to describe what they produce. The E-6 cartridge produces a "blast." From the Calvaryman Rifle entry: "The tiny cartridges just don't hold enough power to propel the blast any great distance." (WB14, p. 213) The blast is propelled out of the gun. That does not sound like a description of a laser beam.

Which doesn't necessarily disprove they aren't lasers. Is "propel" intended to be a literal use of the word, or a more figurative/poetic description? In terms of a literal use it becomes harder to justify them being a laser, but in terms of figurative/poetic its another ball game (since it could be used poetically to describe how long the beam maintains cohesion).

Size wise since RMB they have had combat lasers close to the stated standard .44-.45/9-10mm bullet size (or smaller): Bionic/Cybernetic Fingerguns (and we have the option of which finger, so we can go with the smallest finger). Said weapon also has the basic range of the CFT, though not the punch (but its energy cell holds more shots with the Bionic giving 6 and Cyber 2 which brings them close if its discharging all at once instead of multiple times). So making a laser that small is not out of the question, and we know you can make "single use" lasers in canon.

Ok is being a laser worth noting?

There are well known things in rifts that have a special defense against lasers. So would something intended to be a laser be worth noting?

Do I think it is worth noting? Only if it is supposed to be susceptible to those special defenses against lasers. Don't forget that in (at least) some of those cases they can be overcome (VFL vs Chromium for ex) or may not apply (Arkhon Tri-Beams include a laser aspect, but do double damage to everything expect a specific list of materials and laser resistance isn't present).

[Blue_Lion]

The write up specifically says that the CFT weapons have a recoil. Therefore something is ejected forward to generate the kick. Laser weapons usually have no kick, but it could be excited gases from a chemical. The write up also states the CFT should maintain it's charge for a long time and notes , at the time of publication, that they've been on the market for six years already. Mercenaries was originally published in 1994 and New West in 1997. So it's safe to assume NW post dates Mercenaries. Reading about NE in Mercenaries, it's clear NE has been in contact for a while. Finally, what do we really know about Wilks?

X-Ray lasers (MiO see a previous post of mine for citations) operate via explosive devices, which means we have a potential operating scheme for a laser that would also explain the recoil. I know we are told that after a CFT cartridge is fired there is only scrap left from the cartridge worth 25 credits and that you can't 'recharge" the E-6 round (Chemical Lasers in MiO can be recharged or are self-recharging).

Timeline wise Mercenaries and NW are in the same time frame (or closer to it than publishing dates would suggest). E-6 has been on the market for 6 years, but given the R&D time frame are much older. Mercenaries also suggests that Naruni hasn't been around that long on Rifts Earth-NA, their relationship with Robot Control (Merc Group) is about a year old (how long its taken their reputation to gather). So if Merc/NW are in the same year or close to it, it suggests the E-6 is likely older than NE presence on Rifts Earth IMHO.

I respectfully disagree that CFT line weapons are clearly intended to be laser weapons due to the language used to describe what they produce. The E-6 cartridge produces a "blast." From the Calvaryman Rifle entry: "The tiny cartridges just don't hold enough power to propel the blast any great distance." (WB14, p. 213) The blast is propelled out of the gun. That does not sound like a description of a laser beam.

Which doesn't necessarily disprove they aren't lasers. Is "propel" intended to be a literal use of the word, or a more figurative/poetic description? In terms of a literal use it becomes harder to justify them being a laser, but in terms of figurative/poetic its another ball game (since it could be used poetically to describe how long the beam maintains cohesion).

Size wise since RMB they have had combat lasers close to the stated standard .44-.45/9-10mm bullet size (or smaller): Bionic/Cybernetic Fingerguns (and we have the option of which finger, so we can go with the smallest finger). Said weapon also has the basic range of the CFT, though not the punch (but its energy cell holds more shots with the Bionic giving 6 and Cyber 2 which brings them close if its discharging all at once instead of multiple times). So making a laser that small is not out of the question, and we know you can make "single use" lasers in canon.

Ok is being a laser worth noting?

There are well known things in rifts that have a special defense against lasers. So would something intended to be a laser be worth noting?

Do I think it is worth noting? Only if it is supposed to be susceptible to those special defenses against lasers. Don't forget that in (at least) some of those cases they can be overcome (VFL vs Chromium for ex) or may not apply (Arkhon Tri-Beams include a laser aspect, but do double damage to everything expect a specific list of materials and laser resistance isn't present).

So your stance is that if they are lasers not susceptible to special defenses such as chromium armor or super powers that affect lasers, that is totally not note worthy. But if they normal lasers against them that is note worthy.

That to me seams rather illogical because lasers that are not susceptible to special defense is something that is not only note worthy but has a clear pattern of being stated. And having 2 note worthy qualities seams to make it even more note worthy not less.

It seams there is a impasse here one side saying nothing says they are not and one side saying nothing says the do.
Does stating they are or arn't lasers more closely fallow typical PB writing patterns.
(Seams to me most lasers are noted as lasers in some way.)

[ShadowLogan]

If they describe CFT clearly as lasers, and those lasers aren't susceptible to laser resistance factors they would have to offer up some reason why the CFT laser is special (not that hard). By omitting a laser reference they get around the entire issue and even save space or make space available for other more relevant bits here (or elsewhere in the book).

And we are at at impasse. Palladium hasn't revisited CFT to offer up more information that could settle the two most common issues with the tech in the book (ie "what it actually fires" and "can it fire a conventional round").

[dreicunan]

I respectfully disagree that CFT line weapons are clearly intended to be laser weapons due to the language used to describe what they produce. The E-6 cartridge produces a "blast." From the Calvaryman Rifle entry: "The tiny cartridges just don't hold enough power to propel the blast any great distance." (WB14, p. 213) The blast is propelled out of the gun. That does not sound like a description of a laser beam.

Which doesn't necessarily disprove they aren't lasers. Is "propel" intended to be a literal use of the word, or a more figurative/poetic description? In terms of a literal use it becomes harder to justify them being a laser, but in terms of figurative/poetic its another ball game (since it could be used poetically to describe how long the beam maintains cohesion).

Size wise since RMB they have had combat lasers close to the stated standard .44-.45/9-10mm bullet size (or smaller): Bionic/Cybernetic Fingerguns (and we have the option of which finger, so we can go with the smallest finger). Said weapon also has the basic range of the CFT, though not the punch (but its energy cell holds more shots with the Bionic giving 6 and Cyber 2 which brings them close if its discharging all at once instead of multiple times). So making a laser that small is not out of the question, and we know you can make "single use" lasers in canon.

My disagreement was never with the size of the weapon. I already dropped my objection based on propel in a previous exchange with Colonel_Tetsuya

X-Ray lasers (MiO see a previous post of mine for citations) operate via explosive devices, which means we have a potential operating scheme for a laser that would also explain the recoil. I know we are told that after a CFT cartridge is fired there is only scrap left from the cartridge worth 25 credits and that you can't 'recharge" the E-6 round (Chemical Lasers in MiO can be recharged or are self-recharging).

Timeline wise Mercenaries and NW are in the same time frame (or closer to it than publishing dates would suggest). E-6 has been on the market for 6 years, but given the R&D time frame are much older. Mercenaries also suggests that Naruni hasn't been around that long on Rifts Earth-NA, their relationship with Robot Control (Merc Group) is about a year old (how long its taken their reputation to gather). So if Merc/NW are in the same year or close to it, it suggests the E-6 is likely older than NE presence on Rifts Earth IMHO.

Emphasis added. That was an interesting misquote, because it made me look at WB p. 212 again: "The spent energy cartridge/bullet is worth only about 25 cents per shell casing and is usually discarded."

The shell casing is left - it isn't just scrap. That leads me to wonder what that casing is made of, and if the fact that it is still intact means anything for likelihood of different types of energy being expelled.

[Blue_Lion]

If they describe CFT clearly as lasers, and those lasers aren't susceptible to laser resistance factors they would have to offer up some reason why the CFT laser is special (not that hard). By omitting a laser reference they get around the entire issue and even save space or make space available for other more relevant bits here (or elsewhere in the book).

And we are at at impasse. Palladium hasn't revisited CFT to offer up more information that could settle the two most common issues with the tech in the book (ie "what it actually fires" and "can it fire a conventional round").

The fact they have not stated what it actually fires is why I say is undefined type of energy and not lasers.

I am sorry I just can not buy the logic in the first one. If the where intended to be lasers they would need to tell us that clearly so we would know. If they where immune to something that should affect them if they where intended to be lasers we would need to know. the fact they do not tell us something note worthy about them makes them unlikely to be what is note worthy.(lasers)Omitting a laser reerence if they are lasers to avoid a issue they should address to save space but expect people to know they are lasers makes no sense.

[eliakon]

If they describe CFT clearly as lasers, and those lasers aren't susceptible to laser resistance factors they would have to offer up some reason why the CFT laser is special (not that hard). By omitting a laser reference they get around the entire issue and even save space or make space available for other more relevant bits here (or elsewhere in the book).

And we are at at impasse. Palladium hasn't revisited CFT to offer up more information that could settle the two most common issues with the tech in the book (ie "what it actually fires" and "can it fire a conventional round").

The fact they have not stated what it actually fires is why I say is undefined type of energy and not lasers.

Which makes as much sense as saying they fire work...
Energy weapons shoot something and not just 'generic energy' since energy can not be conveyed with out being in a form to BE conveyed in.
Now the question of what they ARE is canonically unstated I agree.

I am sorry I just can not buy the logic in the first one. If the where intended to be lasers they would need to tell us that clearly so we would know. If they where immune to something that should affect them if they where intended to be lasers we would need to know. the fact they do not tell us something note worthy about them makes them unlikely to be what is note worthy.(lasers)Omitting a laser reerence if they are lasers to avoid a issue they should address to save space but expect people to know they are lasers makes no sense.

This argument though doesnt hold up well since there are resistances and defenses to every possible form of energy beam/blast that the weapon fires. Thus the lack of a specific form of resistance not being mentioned does not prove that it can not be that kind of energy beam/blast or we would be left with it not actually firing anything at all...
since we can manifestly prove that it DOES shot something then we can also prove that what ever it shoots is protected against by some defense normally and that, in typical palladium fasion, it just was not specified what.

[ShadowLogan]

Emphasis added. That was an interesting misquote, because it made me look at WB p. 212 again: "The spent energy cartridge/bullet is worth only about 25 cents per shell casing and is usually discarded."

The shell casing is left - it isn't just scrap. That leads me to wonder what that casing is made of, and if the fact that it is still intact means anything for likelihood of different types of energy being expelled.

Not a misquote, if I was quoting (or intending to quote) the book verbatim I would put it in quotation marks. I view the shell casing as "scrap" as I put it because after discharge it "is usually discarded". To me that suggests there is nothing else it is good for since statements about refurbishing/recharging the shell casing do not exist in the text.

The fact they have not stated what it actually fires is why I say is undefined type of energy and not lasers.

I am sorry I just can not buy the logic in the first one. If the where intended to be lasers they would need to tell us that clearly so we would know. If they where immune to something that should affect them if they where intended to be lasers we would need to know. the fact they do not tell us something note worthy about them makes them unlikely to be what is note worthy.(lasers)Omitting a laser reerence if they are lasers to avoid a issue they should address to save space but expect people to know they are lasers makes no sense.

I do not dispute the energy is unidentified. The notion it is a laser is circumstantial, but one that has a lot of in-world support and the leading candidate.

I do not see why the would have to tell us its a laser and that is immune to any laser resistance, when simply leaving it as "unidentified" accomplishes the same thing. I agree it is odd they don't identify the nature of the weapon, but it is not an isolated case (it is rare though).

[Blue_Lion]

If they describe CFT clearly as lasers, and those lasers aren't susceptible to laser resistance factors they would have to offer up some reason why the CFT laser is special (not that hard). By omitting a laser reference they get around the entire issue and even save space or make space available for other more relevant bits here (or elsewhere in the book).

And we are at at impasse. Palladium hasn't revisited CFT to offer up more information that could settle the two most common issues with the tech in the book (ie "what it actually fires" and "can it fire a conventional round").

The fact they have not stated what it actually fires is why I say is undefined type of energy and not lasers.

Which makes as much sense as saying they fire work...
Energy weapons shoot something and not just 'generic energy' since energy can not be conveyed with out being in a form to BE conveyed in.
Now the question of what they ARE is canonically unstated I agree.

I am sorry I just can not buy the logic in the first one. If the where intended to be lasers they would need to tell us that clearly so we would know. If they where immune to something that should affect them if they where intended to be lasers we would need to know. the fact they do not tell us something note worthy about them makes them unlikely to be what is note worthy.(lasers)Omitting a laser reerence if they are lasers to avoid a issue they should address to save space but expect people to know they are lasers makes no sense.

This argument though doesnt hold up well since there are resistances and defenses to every possible form of energy beam/blast that the weapon fires. Thus the lack of a specific form of resistance not being mentioned does not prove that it can not be that kind of energy beam/blast or we would be left with it not actually firing anything at all...
since we can manifestly prove that it DOES shot something then we can also prove that what ever it shoots is protected against by some defense normally and that, in typical palladium fasion, it just was not specified what.

So your opinion is that weapons can not be unstated generic. That is untrue remember this is a game not realty. Things only have a type when stated to have a type.

To me the idea that it has to be something because it can not be generic does not hold up. In real life there may be no undefined/generic energy but this is a game not reality and the game can and does have such things.

And the argument does hold up as if it was intended to be any type of energy that has type specific defenses they would need to tell us that. If it is intended to be a type of energy and immune to normal defenses for it, is something they would need to tell us.

To me your counter seams to amount to I do not want it to be generic and they do not need to tell us when something is something specific and if it has some special characteristics for the type of energy it is.(And i find that fundamentally flawed logic when it comes to what is what in game world where things are what we are told they are.)

***By canon, RAW and what we can tell of intent it a undefined type of energy. So while treated as energy it is not any form of known energy.***

[Blue_Lion]

Emphasis added. That was an interesting misquote, because it made me look at WB p. 212 again: "The spent energy cartridge/bullet is worth only about 25 cents per shell casing and is usually discarded."

The shell casing is left - it isn't just scrap. That leads me to wonder what that casing is made of, and if the fact that it is still intact means anything for likelihood of different types of energy being expelled.

Not a misquote, if I was quoting (or intending to quote) the book verbatim I would put it in quotation marks. I view the shell casing as "scrap" as I put it because after discharge it "is usually discarded". To me that suggests there is nothing else it is good for since statements about refurbishing/recharging the shell casing do not exist in the text.

The fact they have not stated what it actually fires is why I say is undefined type of energy and not lasers.

I am sorry I just can not buy the logic in the first one. If the where intended to be lasers they would need to tell us that clearly so we would know. If they where immune to something that should affect them if they where intended to be lasers we would need to know. the fact they do not tell us something note worthy about them makes them unlikely to be what is note worthy.(lasers)Omitting a laser reerence if they are lasers to avoid a issue they should address to save space but expect people to know they are lasers makes no sense.

I do not dispute the energy is unidentified. The notion it is a laser is circumstantial, but one that has a lot of in-world support and the leading candidate.

I do not see why the would have to tell us its a laser and that is immune to any laser resistance, when simply leaving it as "unidentified" accomplishes the same thing. I agree it is odd they don't identify the nature of the weapon, but it is not an isolated case (it is rare though).

What you are not seeing is this. A laser being immune to standard laser defenses and unrefined type of energy may be mechanically simular a laser being immune to laser defenses is significant while undefined energy being immune to laser defenses is not.-Unless you are saying a laser immune to laser defenses is no longer a laser. (Basically if they where intended to be a laser that is something they would need to tell us some how.)

[ShadowLogan]

What you are not seeing is this. A laser being immune to standard laser defenses and unrefined type of energy may be mechanically simular a laser being immune to laser defenses is significant while undefined energy being immune to laser defenses is not.-Unless you are saying a laser immune to laser defenses is no longer a laser. (Basically if they where intended to be a laser that is something they would need to tell us some how.)

Mechanically though it is not significant, the end result is the same from a game mechanic perspective: both do their full listed damage to laser resistant materials regardless.

IN-WOLRD I agree it could be significant, but it could also have other consequences if they delved too deep that the writers would rather not (seem to want to) explore. Ultimately it is really up to the GM though how they want to play CFTs (as a laser system or something else) without more information from PB (aside from a new CFT weapon in the old FAQ I don't think CFTs have been looked at in 20years).

[Blue_Lion]

What you are not seeing is this. A laser being immune to standard laser defenses and unrefined type of energy may be mechanically simular a laser being immune to laser defenses is significant while undefined energy being immune to laser defenses is not.-Unless you are saying a laser immune to laser defenses is no longer a laser. (Basically if they where intended to be a laser that is something they would need to tell us some how.)

Mechanically though it is not significant, the end result is the same from a game mechanic perspective: both do their full listed damage to laser resistant materials regardless.

IN-WOLRD I agree it could be significant, but it could also have other consequences if they delved too deep that the writers would rather not (seem to want to) explore. Ultimately it is really up to the GM though how they want to play CFTs (as a laser system or something else) without more information from PB (aside from a new CFT weapon in the old FAQ I don't think CFTs have been looked at in 20years).

Honestly I think they just thought a gun using using cartages to shoot energy would be a cool concept but never put more thoght than that into what they are.

While you can make them what ever you want in your game officially they are a unidentified/generic type of energy.(some thing while impossible in real live exists in the game.)

Nothing I seen the text implies or hints lasers.

(Just imagine if wilks decided to make a version not based on the old west. CFT Tommy gun any one or a belt fed machine gun.

[ShadowLogan]

Honestly I think they just thought a gun using using cartages to shoot energy would be a cool concept but never put more thoght than that into what they are.

While you can make them what ever you want in your game officially they are a unidentified/generic type of energy.(some thing while impossible in real live exists in the game.)

Nothing I seen the text implies or hints lasers.

(Just imagine if wilks decided to make a version not based on the old west. CFT Tommy gun any one or a belt fed machine gun.

I agree they probably did not put much more thought into it. We see that with the CFT can be fired in an SDC gun, but no consideration of the reverse (as an example). Something you would think would reasonably come up.

I think them being lasers comes from other bits outside of the CFT text.

[The Beast]

Honestly I think they just thought a gun using using cartages to shoot energy would be a cool concept but never put more thoght than that into what they are.

While you can make them what ever you want in your game officially they are a unidentified/generic type of energy.(some thing while impossible in real live exists in the game.)

Nothing I seen the text implies or hints lasers.

(Just imagine if wilks decided to make a version not based on the old west. CFT Tommy gun any one or a belt fed machine gun.

I agree they probably did not put much more thought into it. We see that with the CFT can be fired in an SDC gun, but no consideration of the reverse (as an example). Something you would think would reasonably come up.

I think them being lasers comes from other bits outside of the CFT text.

I could see this going both ways. On one hand in the part where it talks about what happens if you fire a CFT round in a SDC gun it does list a range on how far the blast can travel. If it needed lenses to work then the rounds wouldn't be able to be fired from SDC guns. On the other hand, Palladium usually notes what happens when weapons use types of ammo different from what they're written with (ie: Arkhon weapons for starters). Unless either Kevin or Chris come here and provide an answer (which Kevin won't do; don't know about Chris) we're left with "Whatever your GM decides."

[dreicunan]

(Just imagine if wilks decided to make a version not based on the old west. CFT Tommy gun any one or a belt fed machine gun.

The CFT Autogun is modeled after the Colt M1911A1. It is capable of automatic fire.