CFT guns from the NW, can they fire sdc bullets?

[eliakon]

If they describe CFT clearly as lasers, and those lasers aren't susceptible to laser resistance factors they would have to offer up some reason why the CFT laser is special (not that hard). By omitting a laser reference they get around the entire issue and even save space or make space available for other more relevant bits here (or elsewhere in the book).

And we are at at impasse. Palladium hasn't revisited CFT to offer up more information that could settle the two most common issues with the tech in the book (ie "what it actually fires" and "can it fire a conventional round").

The fact they have not stated what it actually fires is why I say is undefined type of energy and not lasers.

Which makes as much sense as saying they fire work...
Energy weapons shoot something and not just 'generic energy' since energy can not be conveyed with out being in a form to BE conveyed in.
Now the question of what they ARE is canonically unstated I agree.

I am sorry I just can not buy the logic in the first one. If the where intended to be lasers they would need to tell us that clearly so we would know. If they where immune to something that should affect them if they where intended to be lasers we would need to know. the fact they do not tell us something note worthy about them makes them unlikely to be what is note worthy.(lasers)Omitting a laser reerence if they are lasers to avoid a issue they should address to save space but expect people to know they are lasers makes no sense.

This argument though doesnt hold up well since there are resistances and defenses to every possible form of energy beam/blast that the weapon fires. Thus the lack of a specific form of resistance not being mentioned does not prove that it can not be that kind of energy beam/blast or we would be left with it not actually firing anything at all...
since we can manifestly prove that it DOES shot something then we can also prove that what ever it shoots is protected against by some defense normally and that, in typical palladium fasion, it just was not specified what.

So your opinion is that weapons can not be unstated generic. That is untrue remember this is a game not realty. Things only have a type when stated to have a type.

To me the idea that it has to be something because it can not be generic does not hold up. In real life there may be no undefined/generic energy but this is a game not reality and the game can and does have such things.

And the argument does hold up as if it was intended to be any type of energy that has type specific defenses they would need to tell us that. If it is intended to be a type of energy and immune to normal defenses for it, is something they would need to tell us.

To me your counter seams to amount to I do not want it to be generic and they do not need to tell us when something is something specific and if it has some special characteristics for the type of energy it is.(And i find that fundamentally flawed logic when it comes to what is what in game world where things are what we are told they are.)

***By canon, RAW and what we can tell of intent it a undefined type of energy. So while treated as energy it is not any form of known energy.***

Actually your stance that generic energy is a game thing is not supported by canon as far as I can tell.
Simply because we are not told what it is, does not mean it does not have a kind.
Now if you have an example of Canon Rifts material with generic "non-specific energy" below the Elder Race level of technology I would be interested (and be willing to entertain changing my opinion on this)
But as it is, the lack of us being told the kind of something does not mean that it doesn't have a kind.
After all, we are not told what railgun rounds are made out of, so I guess we must assume that they are made out of undifferentiated matter. In fact by this logic I guess we must presume that almost everything in the game is made out of some generic undifferentiated matter as they very rarely tell us what it IS made out of...
Almost as if not telling us the details does not mean that those details do not exist.
(or I guess you could argue that there are only around 20-30 elements in total in the Palladium Universe )

[ShadowLogan]

I could see this going both ways. On one hand in the part where it talks about what happens if you fire a CFT round in a SDC gun it does list a range on how far the blast can travel. If it needed lenses to work then the rounds wouldn't be able to be fired from SDC guns. On the other hand, Palladium usually notes what happens when weapons use types of ammo different from what they're written with (ie: Arkhon weapons for starters). Unless either Kevin or Chris come here and provide an answer (which Kevin won't do; don't know about Chris) we're left with "Whatever your GM decides."

Re: Lens
Not necessarily. There are 3 possible setups for lens:
Format: #-Cartridge, #-Gun
1. 0 C, 1+ Gun. SDC gun wouldn't be able to fire it IMHO
2. 1+ C, 0 Gun. SDC gun could fire w/o penalties, but could still suffer damage to due energies involved
3. 1+ C, 1+ Gun. SDC gun could fire w/penalties

#3's impact is what we see.

(Just imagine if wilks decided to make a version not based on the old west. CFT Tommy gun any one or a belt fed machine gun.

The CFT Autogun is modeled after the Colt M1911A1. It is capable of automatic fire.

A CFT Tommygun or belt-fed machinegun would still run into the apparent range limitation of CFT E-6 cartridges, that doesn't mean they aren't a potent idea. The main hangup here might be cost though, an Eclip version of those type of weapons would be cheaper for the first "payload" and subsequent "reloads" (though this is the case of normal energy weapons vs CFT).

What might really be scary is if Wilk's-CFT ever worked out how to get better range w/o loss in stopping power of the current E-6. And what happens if you increase the size of the E-6 cartridge to "rifle" size or go with a bigger caliber (IINM only 4 calibers are ever mention) or they work out E-6 "magnum" equivalents.

Now if you have an example of Canon Rifts material with generic "non-specific energy" below the Elder Race level of technology I would be interested (and be willing to entertain changing my opinion on this)

unidentified energy types ARE a thing, they are just very very rare compared to general weapons. Ignoring magic and psionic based systems...
IINM there are at least 2770 weapon systems in Rifts between various WB/SB/DBs (I don't have them all, and the number is not pulled from thin air, some might be duplicates and some are more sensor/feature than weapon, and some are TW/magic from a database query). Of those 41 have Energy in the name, and I know a few of those in the entry DO NOT identify the energy (Kittani Transformable Fighter in DB2, Cybernetic Fingergun (Bionic equivalent is laser, but the Cyber system is UIE), Mecha Knight in Mercenaries, and the Energy Hammer in Warlords of Russia pg219) and a few that I can't cross check at this time. This does not consider the (5) CFT examples either. Counting CFT that's ~0.3% of the systems I know of in Rifts. Now I admit I didn't check all 41, so it could be as high as ~1.5% (if I include RT 1E & 2E plus Macross2 you'll end up with a more weapon systems, but also more UIE, but I think it would ultimately push the percentages down.

[Blue_Lion]

If they describe CFT clearly as lasers, and those lasers aren't susceptible to laser resistance factors they would have to offer up some reason why the CFT laser is special (not that hard). By omitting a laser reference they get around the entire issue and even save space or make space available for other more relevant bits here (or elsewhere in the book).

And we are at at impasse. Palladium hasn't revisited CFT to offer up more information that could settle the two most common issues with the tech in the book (ie "what it actually fires" and "can it fire a conventional round").

The fact they have not stated what it actually fires is why I say is undefined type of energy and not lasers.

Which makes as much sense as saying they fire work...
Energy weapons shoot something and not just 'generic energy' since energy can not be conveyed with out being in a form to BE conveyed in.
Now the question of what they ARE is canonically unstated I agree.

I am sorry I just can not buy the logic in the first one. If the where intended to be lasers they would need to tell us that clearly so we would know. If they where immune to something that should affect them if they where intended to be lasers we would need to know. the fact they do not tell us something note worthy about them makes them unlikely to be what is note worthy.(lasers)Omitting a laser reerence if they are lasers to avoid a issue they should address to save space but expect people to know they are lasers makes no sense.

This argument though doesnt hold up well since there are resistances and defenses to every possible form of energy beam/blast that the weapon fires. Thus the lack of a specific form of resistance not being mentioned does not prove that it can not be that kind of energy beam/blast or we would be left with it not actually firing anything at all...
since we can manifestly prove that it DOES shot something then we can also prove that what ever it shoots is protected against by some defense normally and that, in typical palladium fasion, it just was not specified what.

So your opinion is that weapons can not be unstated generic. That is untrue remember this is a game not realty. Things only have a type when stated to have a type.

To me the idea that it has to be something because it can not be generic does not hold up. In real life there may be no undefined/generic energy but this is a game not reality and the game can and does have such things.

And the argument does hold up as if it was intended to be any type of energy that has type specific defenses they would need to tell us that. If it is intended to be a type of energy and immune to normal defenses for it, is something they would need to tell us.

To me your counter seams to amount to I do not want it to be generic and they do not need to tell us when something is something specific and if it has some special characteristics for the type of energy it is.(And i find that fundamentally flawed logic when it comes to what is what in game world where things are what we are told they are.)

***By canon, RAW and what we can tell of intent it a undefined type of energy. So while treated as energy it is not any form of known energy.***

Actually your stance that generic energy is a game thing is not supported by canon as far as I can tell.
Simply because we are not told what it is, does not mean it does not have a kind.
Now if you have an example of Canon Rifts material with generic "non-specific energy" below the Elder Race level of technology I would be interested (and be willing to entertain changing my opinion on this)
But as it is, the lack of us being told the kind of something does not mean that it doesn't have a kind.
After all, we are not told what railgun rounds are made out of, so I guess we must assume that they are made out of undifferentiated matter. In fact by this logic I guess we must presume that almost everything in the game is made out of some generic undifferentiated matter as they very rarely tell us what it IS made out of...
Almost as if not telling us the details does not mean that those details do not exist.
(or I guess you could argue that there are only around 20-30 elements in total in the Palladium Universe )

Wait you ask for example and then state limits.
Ok there is the super power as you stated earlier.
CTF.-they never specify a type for it. So the example of them not stating energy type I will use is CTF.

Umm technically yes in a game by cannon and RAW if they do not tell us it has a type then it is undefined/unspecified/generic.

We do not know what most rail guns rounds(unless they tell us) are made of some by cannon and raw they are just generic rounds, rounds made from special material we are told, IE U rounds or silver rounds. All other are undefined generic rounds.

**By canon and RAW any details not provided do not exist or are unspecified as part of canon or RAW.**

The idea that something is can be in canon or RAW without them telling if logical flawed. The idea that it has to be something specific might work in reality but in a game when some thing is not given a specific type it has no type.

[Blue_Lion]

I could see this going both ways. On one hand in the part where it talks about what happens if you fire a CFT round in a SDC gun it does list a range on how far the blast can travel. If it needed lenses to work then the rounds wouldn't be able to be fired from SDC guns. On the other hand, Palladium usually notes what happens when weapons use types of ammo different from what they're written with (ie: Arkhon weapons for starters). Unless either Kevin or Chris come here and provide an answer (which Kevin won't do; don't know about Chris) we're left with "Whatever your GM decides."

Re: Lens
Not necessarily. There are 3 possible setups for lens:
Format: #-Cartridge, #-Gun
1. 0 C, 1+ Gun. SDC gun wouldn't be able to fire it IMHO
2. 1+ C, 0 Gun. SDC gun could fire w/o penalties, but could still suffer damage to due energies involved
3. 1+ C, 1+ Gun. SDC gun could fire w/penalties

#3's impact is what we see.

(Just imagine if wilks decided to make a version not based on the old west. CFT Tommy gun any one or a belt fed machine gun.

The CFT Autogun is modeled after the Colt M1911A1. It is capable of automatic fire.

A CFT Tommygun or belt-fed machinegun would still run into the apparent range limitation of CFT E-6 cartridges, that doesn't mean they aren't a potent idea. The main hangup here might be cost though, an Eclip version of those type of weapons would be cheaper for the first "payload" and subsequent "reloads" (though this is the case of normal energy weapons vs CFT).

What might really be scary is if Wilk's-CFT ever worked out how to get better range w/o loss in stopping power of the current E-6. And what happens if you increase the size of the E-6 cartridge to "rifle" size or go with a bigger caliber (IINM only 4 calibers are ever mention) or they work out E-6 "magnum" equivalents.

Now if you have an example of Canon Rifts material with generic "non-specific energy" below the Elder Race level of technology I would be interested (and be willing to entertain changing my opinion on this)

unidentified energy types ARE a thing, they are just very very rare compared to general weapons. Ignoring magic and psionic based systems...
IINM there are at least 2770 weapon systems in Rifts between various WB/SB/DBs (I don't have them all, and the number is not pulled from thin air, some might be duplicates and some are more sensor/feature than weapon, and some are TW/magic from a database query). Of those 41 have Energy in the name, and I know a few of those in the entry DO NOT identify the energy (Kittani Transformable Fighter in DB2, Cybernetic Fingergun (Bionic equivalent is laser, but the Cyber system is UIE), Mecha Knight in Mercenaries, and the Energy Hammer in Warlords of Russia pg219) and a few that I can't cross check at this time. This does not consider the (5) CFT examples either. Counting CFT that's ~0.3% of the systems I know of in Rifts. Now I admit I didn't check all 41, so it could be as high as ~1.5% (if I include RT 1E & 2E plus Macross2 you'll end up with a more weapon systems, but also more UIE, but I think it would ultimately push the percentages down.

As a close combat/urban combat well within the range of ctf and many fights in wilderness start at such ranges. They are not a long range weapon but a full auto CTF weapon would have crazy damage for its size.

[eliakon]

Wait you ask for example and then state limits.
Ok there is the super power as you stated earlier.

Rifts game I said
Not the Heroes Unlimited game.
Try again

CTF.-they never specify a type for it. So the example of them not stating energy type I will use is CTF.

Circular definition is circular
proving that CFT is generic by citing CFT as an example of another generic energy is circular
Try again

Umm technically yes in a game by cannon and RAW if they do not tell us it has a type then it is undefined/unspecified/generic.

So there are only ~30 elements in the Rifts universe (since that is the number of named elements, the rest are not named so don't really exist). Got it.

We do not know what most rail guns rounds(unless they tell us) are made of some by cannon and raw they are just generic rounds, rounds made from special material we are told, IE U rounds or silver rounds. All other are undefined generic rounds.

So they are made from doesn't-matter

**By canon and RAW any details not provided do not exist or are unspecified as part of canon or RAW.**

The idea that something is can be in canon or RAW without them telling if logical flawed. The idea that it has to be something specific might work in reality but in a game when some thing is not given a specific type it has no type.

They are something is what I am saying.
Or put another way.
Just because no book mentions that the ocean is salty, does not mean that there is no salt in it.
Or that because no book mentions that there is iron in blood that there is no iron in blood.
Or that because no book mentions the element silica that silica does not exist and all the glass and lenses in the book are just made out of "doesn't-matter".
That is an absurd argument
The same follows that just because the kind of energy is not specified that there is not a kind that was just not specified is also false.

[Blue_Lion]

Wait you ask for example and then state limits.
Ok there is the super power as you stated earlier.

Rifts game I said
Not the Heroes Unlimited game.
Try again

CTF.-they never specify a type for it. So the example of them not stating energy type I will use is CTF.

Circular definition is circular
proving that CFT is generic by citing CFT as an example of another generic energy is circular
Try again

Umm technically yes in a game by cannon and RAW if they do not tell us it has a type then it is undefined/unspecified/generic.

So there are only ~30 elements in the Rifts universe (since that is the number of named elements, the rest are not named so don't really exist). Got it.

We do not know what most rail guns rounds(unless they tell us) are made of some by cannon and raw they are just generic rounds, rounds made from special material we are told, IE U rounds or silver rounds. All other are undefined generic rounds.

So they are made from doesn't-matter

**By canon and RAW any details not provided do not exist or are unspecified as part of canon or RAW.**

The idea that something is can be in canon or RAW without them telling if logical flawed. The idea that it has to be something specific might work in reality but in a game when some thing is not given a specific type it has no type.

They are something is what I am saying.
Or put another way.
Just because no book mentions that the ocean is salty, does not mean that there is no salt in it.
Or that because no book mentions that there is iron in blood that there is no iron in blood.
Or that because no book mentions the element silica that silica does not exist and all the glass and lenses in the book are just made out of "doesn't-matter".
That is an absurd argument
The same follows that just because the kind of energy is not specified that there is not a kind that was just not specified is also false.

Super powers are part of rifts conversion book 1.

And for mechanics as long as you have rail gun rounds it does not matter what they are made of as long as they are rail gun rounds.

Got it you have a problem because the game is not reality and only stuff in cannon is what we are told.
Understanding that a game is not real and not bound by the same rules that every thing has to be something is not absurd. It is just excepting things as the are.
Claiming that something exists by canon that we are not told is a complete lack of understanding of the concept.

Claiming something is in canon that we are not told is absurd.

By the way is there any statement saying they can not be generic. This seams you trying to force me to disprove something that does not exist. ( we know mechanically there is generic energy.)

[ShadowLogan]

As a close combat/urban combat well within the range of ctf and many fights in wilderness start at such ranges. They are not a long range weapon but a full auto CTF weapon would have crazy damage for its size.

CFTs are practical tactical systems I can agree with in terms of range and firepower. Their biggest downside: cost.

Depending on the weapon a (standard) Eclip holds approx. 20shots for a cost of 5-6000credits, but you can recharge that Eclip much cheaper (1,500credits IIRC), Long Eclips are also available at higher cost and higher payload (I forget if the recharge is the same or higher than standard), Damage per shot might not be directly comparable though. An E-6 cartridge costs 320credits (IIRC, my books are not available currently), and nothing indicates the E-6 cartridge can be recharged (so to replace a spent shot costs 320credits). An Eclip costs per Shot 250-300credits (assuming a 20shot payload), and a replacement cost of 75credits. And the replacement cost of an Eclip is potentially Zero if you have your own recharging station (cost of the station yes).

[Mack]

So if I fire up the Way-Back Machine [sup]TM[/sup] and jump back to 2004...

Here's an idea that was bouncing around my head. It's based on the CFT weapons located in New West.

CFT "Tommy Gun"

The designers are Wilk’s continue to experiment with their surprisingly successful CFT Energy-6 cartridge. This design, inspired by the famous Thompson Sub-machinegun of the 1930’s, is intended to compensate for the rounds power limitation through sheer volume of rounds fired. Consequently the weapon suffers from recoil problems when longer bursts are fired, but this has not slowed sales of the new weapon. While most buyers are dismayed by the weapon’s relatively short range, many police and security forces are drawn to this weapon because of it. In urban settings, the reduced range allows the weapon to be used more freely since the shooter is less concerned with stray shots demolishing the town. Additionally, urban users are generally less concerned with being resupplied than wilderness travelers.

Weight: 6 pounds unloaded. 7 pounds with the small magazine. 9 pounds with the large magazine.

Mega-Damage: 3D6 MD from a single round. 6D6 MD from a 5 round burst. 1D6x10 MD from a 10 round burst. 2D6x10 MD from a 20 round burst, but uses two actions. (GM’s may substitute normal the burst rules if desired.)

Rate of Fire: Single Shot, or Burst.

Effective Range: 400 feet

Payload: Two different magazines are available. First is a traditional 30 round magazine. The second, and much more preferred, is a 100 round drum magazine.

Penalties: Both the 10 and 20 round bursts are -1 to Strike.

Cost: 30,000 credits for the gun. E-6 rounds typically cost 320 credits each.

[RockJock]

I like it Mack. No reason why it wouldn't work. Someone could argue about heat with full auto, or what not, but even if you take overheating into account and lower the cyclic rate from a real world Thompson it would be nasty.

[Blue_Lion]

@Eliakon
Why is it my job to disprove a non-existent rule?(I only have three books with me on this deployment so I am at a bit a of a disadvantage to prove a negitive.)
Is there a rule that says a weapon can not be a unspecified/generic form of energy?

(Something can be very logical and not part of RAW or Canon so not an official part of the game.)

[Blue_Lion]

So if I fire up the Way-Back Machine [sup]TM[/sup] and jump back to 2004...

Here's an idea that was bouncing around my head. It's based on the CFT weapons located in New West.

CFT "Tommy Gun"

The designers are Wilk’s continue to experiment with their surprisingly successful CFT Energy-6 cartridge. This design, inspired by the famous Thompson Sub-machinegun of the 1930’s, is intended to compensate for the rounds power limitation through sheer volume of rounds fired. Consequently the weapon suffers from recoil problems when longer bursts are fired, but this has not slowed sales of the new weapon. While most buyers are dismayed by the weapon’s relatively short range, many police and security forces are drawn to this weapon because of it. In urban settings, the reduced range allows the weapon to be used more freely since the shooter is less concerned with stray shots demolishing the town. Additionally, urban users are generally less concerned with being resupplied than wilderness travelers.

Weight: 6 pounds unloaded. 7 pounds with the small magazine. 9 pounds with the large magazine.

Mega-Damage: 3D6 MD from a single round. 6D6 MD from a 5 round burst. 1D6x10 MD from a 10 round burst. 2D6x10 MD from a 20 round burst, but uses two actions. (GM’s may substitute normal the burst rules if desired.)

Rate of Fire: Single Shot, or Burst.

Effective Range: 400 feet

Payload: Two different magazines are available. First is a traditional 30 round magazine. The second, and much more preferred, is a 100 round drum magazine.

Penalties: Both the 10 and 20 round bursts are -1 to Strike.

Cost: 30,000 credits for the gun. E-6 rounds typically cost 320 credits each.

Range a little over 100m and doing more damage than most hand held weapons, that is not something I want to fight.

[ShadowLogan]

So if I fire up the Way-Back Machine [sup]TM[/sup] and jump back to 2004...

Here's an idea that was bouncing around my head. It's based on the CFT weapons located in New West.

CFT "Tommy Gun"

The designers are Wilk’s continue to experiment with their surprisingly successful CFT Energy-6 cartridge. This design, inspired by the famous Thompson Sub-machinegun of the 1930’s, is intended to compensate for the rounds power limitation through sheer volume of rounds fired. Consequently the weapon suffers from recoil problems when longer bursts are fired, but this has not slowed sales of the new weapon. While most buyers are dismayed by the weapon’s relatively short range, many police and security forces are drawn to this weapon because of it. In urban settings, the reduced range allows the weapon to be used more freely since the shooter is less concerned with stray shots demolishing the town. Additionally, urban users are generally less concerned with being resupplied than wilderness travelers.

Weight: 6 pounds unloaded. 7 pounds with the small magazine. 9 pounds with the large magazine.

Mega-Damage: 3D6 MD from a single round. 6D6 MD from a 5 round burst. 1D6x10 MD from a 10 round burst. 2D6x10 MD from a 20 round burst, but uses two actions. (GM’s may substitute normal the burst rules if desired.)

Rate of Fire: Single Shot, or Burst.

Effective Range: 400 feet

Payload: Two different magazines are available. First is a traditional 30 round magazine. The second, and much more preferred, is a 100 round drum magazine.

Penalties: Both the 10 and 20 round bursts are -1 to Strike.

Cost: 30,000 credits for the gun. E-6 rounds typically cost 320 credits each.

Well compared to the canon CFT autopistol in New West (range is 100ft shorter) and using the RMB burst rules (active at the time it was written) I think the CFT autopistol comes out on top in terms of burst damage starting with long and full bursts, and is much more efficient in terms of ammo spent per burst. Though your Tommygun if using the same rules can match the damage, but not the efficiency.

NOTE: IF the CFT Tommygun uses the RMB burst rules AND treats it as a Machinegun... it comes out on top in terms of full burst damage. As a machinegun its ability to spray an area is more deadly than the autopistol as it could do so with a short burst (autopistol can't) and in terms of number struck.

[eliakon]

@Eliakon
Why is it my job to disprove a non-existent rule?(I only have three books with me on this deployment so I am at a bit a of a disadvantage to prove a negitive.)
Is there a rule that says a weapon can not be a unspecified/generic form of energy?

(Something can be very logical and not part of RAW or Canon so not an official part of the game.)

Your not disproving anything
Your trying to PROVE that something exists
That makes it your burden of proof.
I do not have to disprove the existence of generic energy attacks. you need to prove that they exist in Rifts...after all your the one making the claim that they exist. And for the record even EE: Energy does not prove that it is 'generic energy' again it simply demonstrates that the energy type is not fire/electricity/light/sound/etc. There is no text in the power that states that it is some sort of 'undifferentiated energy'.

And as I stated before your stance that anything not specified has no identity means that there are no elements in Rifts.
So again, you need to prove either
1) That BOTH unspecified elements exist, but unspecified energy types do NOT exist
2) That there are actually only a handful of elements in Rifts instead of the periodic table of elements in our world

Because you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Either things can be unspecified in the book, and yet still have a type (such as blood can have its chemical and molecular formulas not laid out in the books and yet still have a chemical and molecular structure) OR anything that is not specified in detail in a book does not exist. it is not a case of selectively picking which cases of things being specified means they do not have a 'type' and which ones mean that their type is just not specified.

[Blue_Lion]

The existence of non-specified energy attacks has already been proven.(Note: there was no need to prove the existence of it, as CTF is not specified, and no rule exist that says unspecified weapons have a unlisted type. You re demaning I provided evidence to counter a rule that does not exist.)
You stated there are super powers that do it, and conversion book 1 allows super powers to rifts.
Shadowlogan has already listed other non-specified energy weapons.

So the existence of non specified energy has been established once by yourself. This seams more you refusing to acknowledge what you already know as you listed one source yourself. Simply non-specified energy is a thing in Rifts.

So the burden of prof is on you to prove a rule that states weapons that do not list a type of energy have a unlisted energy type in rifts, as the rules are not assigning CTF a type of energy.(Honestly you are demanding I prove that there is no such rule in place.)

There is no burden for me to prove anything about rifts that is not stated in the books. So I do not need to prove anything about what elements exist in rifts as you claim I do. (You are asking me to prove a negative the absence of elements and that is flawed you have to prove the exist not the lack of them.)

***Attacking me with demands that I prove a negative is a false defense. The CTF is not specified a type of energy in its, you need to provide a rule that says unspecified weapons have to have a type to prove your point. Because as written they have no type so stance that they do not have a type is based off the book not listing one. Your stance that they have to have a type is based of non-existent text. That means until you can find something assigning them a type by RAW/canon they have none. So quit demanding evidence of a negative.***

Unless something in the book says they have a type of energy they are unspecified type of energy. Nothing in the books say they have to be something so requiring me to prove that nothing requires them to have a type is request to prove a negative.(it is not proving a unspecified type of energy as you claim but proving a lack of requirement to be a specified type of energy.) You keep wanting me to prove the books do not assign(oh look that is a negative statement) a type or prove things not in the books instead of proving they have a type by the books.

[Mack]

Gents, it appears this discussion isn't going to be fruitful.