W.P. Psionic Powers?

[eliakon]

World Book 12 (Psyscape) page 33, right column under Range

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

With RUE now requiring WP to make called shots (instead of allowing anybody to do them as long as they roll 12 or better) how do we deal with this? Use the old 12+ rules? Forbid psi from making called shots anymore? Created new WP skills?

Would one WP slot per power be reasonable? What gun would be the best match for bonuses?

With RUE in effect I would treat the psychic as having a WP requirement as not being in effect or the psychic power comes with a built-in WP skill (static though it might be). The end result is the same since RUE did not address the "range" term in the psychic section, WB12 isn't superseded in that aspect.

If I was to allow a skill slot for WP to be taken to improve accuracy, I'd probably use the old generic progression rate instead of trying to find the one that most matches for bonuses.

I am going to ADD-TO/ADJUST my earlier response.

I recently reviewed the text in a few psychic powers in RUE to see if they kept any "called shot" example uses from previous incarnations (RMB, PF2E). Hydrokinesis and Telekinesis both include example applications using the powers that constitute a called shot (between the powers targeting "head", "face", "crotch").

So either under RUE Psychic Powers are considered to have a unstated built-in WP to apply in this situation OR they have an unstated exemption from requiring WP Skill to make Called Shots.

Or they have copy pasta that mentions things that are no longer actually legal
Or they have unique specific abilities that can be done that do not rise to the level of "all psionics have called shots"

[eliakon]

Perhaps I am missing something can some one quote the rule that says it takes a WP to make a called shot?

Psionic Powers are treated the same as modern weapons (guns in Pallidum Parlance). Therefore we go to page 360.
which is where I previously quoted from.
In the Ranged Combat Section under Modern Weapon Proficiency (W.P.)

"A character with a Modern W.P. can make Aimed and "Called Shots"

In the Ranged Combat Section under No Weapon Proficiency (W.P.)

Note: A character with no gun proficiency rolls 1d20 with no bonuses to strike, can NOT make an Aimed Shot or a Called Shot and suffers a penalty of..."

(All emphasis in the text theirs)

The Psiscape rules clearly state that psionic powers are to be treated identically to modern weapons. Ergo we look at the modern weapons rules and no other similar-but-not-modern-weapons rules.

Now if someone can find a rule stating in another RUE book that this is not actually the case... then fine. But as it stands we are forced by the text in Psiscape to use the rules for guns because that is what the canon says, regardless of how harsh that is.

Also we can firmly quash the idea that you can use simply having any modern W.P. due to the text "There is more to shooting a revolver, pistol, rifle, energy weapon and other weapons, than pointing and squeezing the trigger. Even taking careful aim requires practice with the weapon, and different categories of weapons have different applications, quirks and considerations one needs to know to get the optimum performance out of them. A Modern Weapon Proficiency in a particular type of weapon gives the character a good understanding of all these things."

Emphasis mine

[Blue_Lion]

No quote says a weapon proficiency is required by non-guns. If mind bolt was treated like a gun it would not get +4. So we can conclude that mind bolt is not getting treated exactly like a gun simply because there is no skill for it and it gets a +4 to strike, because without A wp guns get no bonuses strike.


We know from the rules that for guns a WP is required but the way the rules are written does not address non-guns. So the we need to look for what rules are for making a called shot that are refenced by "Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon."

Lets take a look at what is rules say about make a called shot.

A “Called shot” targets specification. This is a shot that homes in on a specific part of a larger target, Such as a bul's-eye, an opponent's head, hand, gun radio antenna, sensor cluster, tires, ect. But counts as two melee attacks.
To make a “Called Shot,” the player must “call” or “announce” his charter's intention, i.e. “I'm going to shoot the gun from his hand.” aim and shoot. A carefully Aimed and Called shot also gets the benefit of the + 2 bonus to Aim but counts as three melee attack/actions . On the other hand, a quickly aimed Called Shots only counts as two melee attacks, but does not count as a true Aimed shot and does NOT get the +2 bonus to strike.
Penalties on making a Called Shot. Furthermore, a bull's-eye or any small target is difficult to shoot, and even an Aimed and/or Called Shot, the shooter suffers a penalty of -3 or -4 to strike (sometimes more depending on the target) Note: A “A called Shot” can only be tried with a single “sniper-style” shot, not a burst or when shooting wild.

That is the rules for make a called shot.
I see no requirement for a weapon proficiency in called shot.

The issue is non existence requirement for psi powers to fallow part of the rules for use of a weapon without a skill, when as written do not in any way indicate they apply to anything but Guns/modern weapons.

So again I ask do you have a quote that says psi require a WP to make a called shot. Because all I have seen is that guns require them, but nothing addressing non guns.(A statement about the benefits of WP does not apply to things without WP, rule on the use of guns without WP just applies to guns.)

[shadrak]

The Palladium rules for ranged combat are absurd...I recommend modifying them heavily...

As part of that modification, you can modify how psionics in ranged combat are used...

After all, Palladium says that "anyone without a WP does not know how to reload the weapon, use the sights, etc..."

If it requires a WP to learn to reload a weapon or to use the sights, a short 30 minute class on said weapon should give a player character that WP even if it is a level 0.

Palladium establishes that someone with a firearm can shoot a target that is 2000 feet away 60% of the time (8+ on D20) just by pointing and shooting and not aiming, and that aiming will increase the chance of a hit from 60% to 70% (8+ on D20+2) and that someone with a moderate level of training (level 3-4) will hit that man-sized target 2000 feet away 65-70% of the time by just pointing and shooting.

Don't get too tied to the ranged combat rules if they aren't working for you.

[Blue_Lion]

The Palladium rules for ranged combat are absurd...I recommend modifying them heavily...

As part of that modification, you can modify how psionics in ranged combat are used...

After all, Palladium says that "anyone without a WP does not know how to reload the weapon, use the sights, etc..."

If it requires a WP to learn to reload a weapon or to use the sights, a short 30 minute class on said weapon should give a player character that WP even if it is a level 0.

Palladium establishes that someone with a firearm can shoot a target that is 2000 feet away 60% of the time (8+ on D20) just by pointing and shooting and not aiming, and that aiming will increase the chance of a hit from 60% to 70% (8+ on D20+2) and that someone with a moderate level of training (level 3-4) will hit that man-sized target 2000 feet away 65-70% of the time by just pointing and shooting.

Don't get too tied to the ranged combat rules if they aren't working for you.

How is this related to a discussion on how rules work?

[shadrak]

The Palladium rules for ranged combat are absurd...I recommend modifying them heavily...

As part of that modification, you can modify how psionics in ranged combat are used...

After all, Palladium says that "anyone without a WP does not know how to reload the weapon, use the sights, etc..."

If it requires a WP to learn to reload a weapon or to use the sights, a short 30 minute class on said weapon should give a player character that WP even if it is a level 0.

Palladium establishes that someone with a firearm can shoot a target that is 2000 feet away 60% of the time (8+ on D20) just by pointing and shooting and not aiming, and that aiming will increase the chance of a hit from 60% to 70% (8+ on D20+2) and that someone with a moderate level of training (level 3-4) will hit that man-sized target 2000 feet away 65-70% of the time by just pointing and shooting.

Don't get too tied to the ranged combat rules if they aren't working for you.

How is this related to a discussion on how rules work?

Well, if you look at what Eliakon posted, you will see that the RUE rules DO require a WP to make a called shot...

So, that would be how my comment is related.

[ShadowLogan]

They are exempt to the rules for use of weapons without proficencies because they are not guns/weapons. So there is no reason to think the rules for use of a gun without a WP applies to something that is not a weapon let alone a gun.

Well since my basic stance is that they have an unstated WP or Exception-to-the-rule (which is what you are saying), either way it works out to being the same mechanically. They can make a called shot, we just have a few ways to explain it coming from a different angles.

Or they have copy pasta that mentions things that are no longer actually legal
Or they have unique specific abilities that can be done that do not rise to the level of "all psionics have called shots"

Copy and Paste Screwup doesn't make sense though. They edited at least four powers (TK:AA, AP, Psi-Sword, Psi-Shield come to mind) in that section of the book, so C&P doesn't make much sense as it appears they took the time to edit powers in at least four instances from RMB/WB12.

Unique Specific Abilities would just be another way of saying "unstated exemption" IMHO. And if you can given an exception to those two (or three depending on how you count it), why not others that would be applicable that would make sense?

[eliakon]

So again I ask do you have a quote that says psi require a WP to make a called shot. Because all I have seen is that guns require them, but nothing addressing non guns.(A statement about the benefits of WP does not apply to things without WP, rule on the use of guns without WP just applies to guns.)

That would be Psiscape itself where it states that psionics are treated like modern weapons.
Psyscape page 33 "Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot (typically energy bolts) or to manipulate a psionic manifestation (ectoplasm, telekinesis, electrokinesis, etc) can make a "called shot". This means that the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon." (emphisis mine)
That tells us that psionics are treated identically to modern weapons for purposes of called shots.
Unless there has been a canon rule overturning this rule, then it is the canon rule.

Thus as per Psyscape psionics use the modern weapon rules.
And per RUE modern weapons require a WP.
Now if there is a specific statement somewhere that says that Psionics are no longer treated like modern weapons I am unaware of it, but would be interested in knowing about it.

[Killer Cyborg]

So again I ask do you have a quote that says psi require a WP to make a called shot. Because all I have seen is that guns require them, but nothing addressing non guns.(A statement about the benefits of WP does not apply to things without WP, rule on the use of guns without WP just applies to guns.)

That would be Psiscape itself where it states that psionics are treated like modern weapons.
Psyscape page 33 "Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot (typically energy bolts) or to manipulate a psionic manifestation (ectoplasm, telekinesis, electrokinesis, etc) can make a "called shot". This means that the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon." (emphisis mine)
That tells us that psionics are treated identically to modern weapons for purposes of called shots.
Unless there has been a canon rule overturning this rule, then it is the canon rule.

Thus as per Psyscape psionics use the modern weapon rules.
And per RUE modern weapons require a WP.
Now if there is a specific statement somewhere that says that Psionics are no longer treated like modern weapons I am unaware of it, but would be interested in knowing about it.

I'd instead go with this view:
The Psyscape passage tells us two things:
1. Psychics can make Called Shots with certain psychic powers.
2. The rules for how these Called Shots work are the same as for modern weapons.

But that doesn't mean that the rules for acquiring the ability to make Called Shots is the same.
And it doesn't mean that the rules for psychic powers in general (or those psychic powers that can make called shots specifically) are the same as the rules for modern weapons.

The RUE 328/360 rule stating that a character with no gun proficiency can not make a Called Shot is a rule about Weapon Proficiencies for guns, NOT a rule about Called Shots.
The rules for Called Shots are on p. 361, and those are the rules that apply when making a Called Shot with psychic powers, just as they apply when making a shot with modern firearms.

[Blue_Lion]

The Palladium rules for ranged combat are absurd...I recommend modifying them heavily...

As part of that modification, you can modify how psionics in ranged combat are used...

After all, Palladium says that "anyone without a WP does not know how to reload the weapon, use the sights, etc..."

If it requires a WP to learn to reload a weapon or to use the sights, a short 30 minute class on said weapon should give a player character that WP even if it is a level 0.

Palladium establishes that someone with a firearm can shoot a target that is 2000 feet away 60% of the time (8+ on D20) just by pointing and shooting and not aiming, and that aiming will increase the chance of a hit from 60% to 70% (8+ on D20+2) and that someone with a moderate level of training (level 3-4) will hit that man-sized target 2000 feet away 65-70% of the time by just pointing and shooting.

Don't get too tied to the ranged combat rules if they aren't working for you.

How is this related to a discussion on how rules work?

Well, if you look at what Eliakon posted, you will see that the RUE rules DO require a WP to make a called shot...

So, that would be how my comment is related.

Nope nothing in what he posted that talked about the WP is relevant.
The benefits of WP is irrelevant to things without WP.
A rule requiring guns to have a WP is irrelevant to things that are not guns, and the rule stated that without a WP you get no bonus. That means that psi is not using it as you can get a bonus with psi and there is no WP.

[Blue_Lion]

So again I ask do you have a quote that says psi require a WP to make a called shot. Because all I have seen is that guns require them, but nothing addressing non guns.(A statement about the benefits of WP does not apply to things without WP, rule on the use of guns without WP just applies to guns.)

That would be Psiscape itself where it states that psionics are treated like modern weapons.
Psyscape page 33 "Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot (typically energy bolts) or to manipulate a psionic manifestation (ectoplasm, telekinesis, electrokinesis, etc) can make a "called shot". This means that the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon." (emphisis mine)
That tells us that psionics are treated identically to modern weapons for purposes of called shots.
Unless there has been a canon rule overturning this rule, then it is the canon rule.

Thus as per Psyscape psionics use the modern weapon rules.
And per RUE modern weapons require a WP.
Now if there is a specific statement somewhere that says that Psionics are no longer treated like modern weapons I am unaware of it, but would be interested in knowing about it.

I'd instead go with this view:
The Psyscape passage tells us two things:
1. Psychics can make Called Shots with certain psychic powers.
2. The rules for how these Called Shots work are the same as for modern weapons.

But that doesn't mean that the rules for acquiring the ability to make Called Shots is the same.
And it doesn't mean that the rules for psychic powers in general (or those psychic powers that can make called shots specifically) are the same as the rules for modern weapons.

The RUE 328/360 rule stating that a character with no gun proficiency can not make a Called Shot is a rule about Weapon Proficiencies for guns, NOT a rule about Called Shots.
The rules for Called Shots are on p. 361, and those are the rules that apply when making a Called Shot with psychic powers, just as they apply when making a shot with modern firearms.

This is the point I am making. I posted the rules for making called shots and a WP was not listed in it.

The benefits of WP are irrelevant to things that do not have WP and a rule for use of guns without WP is irrelevant to things that are not guns. Neither of those are a rule on how to make called shots, they are rules about WP that is irrelevant to psi that has no WP.(it never said treat them as guns, or modern weapons just the same rules apply for making a called shot.)

So again I ask is there any quote that requires WP for non-guns to do called shots.

[eliakon]

So again I ask do you have a quote that says psi require a WP to make a called shot. Because all I have seen is that guns require them, but nothing addressing non guns.(A statement about the benefits of WP does not apply to things without WP, rule on the use of guns without WP just applies to guns.)

That would be Psiscape itself where it states that psionics are treated like modern weapons.
Psyscape page 33 "Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot (typically energy bolts) or to manipulate a psionic manifestation (ectoplasm, telekinesis, electrokinesis, etc) can make a "called shot". This means that the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon." (emphisis mine)
That tells us that psionics are treated identically to modern weapons for purposes of called shots.
Unless there has been a canon rule overturning this rule, then it is the canon rule.

Thus as per Psyscape psionics use the modern weapon rules.
And per RUE modern weapons require a WP.
Now if there is a specific statement somewhere that says that Psionics are no longer treated like modern weapons I am unaware of it, but would be interested in knowing about it.

I'd instead go with this view:
The Psyscape passage tells us two things:
1. Psychics can make Called Shots with certain psychic powers.
2. The rules for how these Called Shots work are the same as for modern weapons.

But that doesn't mean that the rules for acquiring the ability to make Called Shots is the same.
And it doesn't mean that the rules for psychic powers in general (or those psychic powers that can make called shots specifically) are the same as the rules for modern weapons.

The RUE 328/360 rule stating that a character with no gun proficiency can not make a Called Shot is a rule about Weapon Proficiencies for guns, NOT a rule about Called Shots.
The rules for Called Shots are on p. 361, and those are the rules that apply when making a Called Shot with psychic powers, just as they apply when making a shot with modern firearms.

This is the point I am making. I posted the rules for making called shots and a WP was not listed in it.

The benefits of WP are irrelevant to things that do not have WP and a rule for use of guns without WP is irrelevant to things that are not guns. Neither of those are a rule on how to make called shots, they are rules about WP that is irrelevant to psi that has no WP.(it never said treat them as guns, or modern weapons just the same rules apply for making a called shot.)

So again I ask is there any quote that requires WP for non-guns to do called shots.

You keep ignoring the fact that the rules for called shots for modern weapons which they work exactly like require WPs
I get that you dont want WPs and you want free and easy called shots. And frankly I dont think they intended to make psi called shots impossible in RUE.
But thats the way the rules are written.
It is not just "aquired" anymore than the rules for modern weapons are not part of WPs because you aquire the ability to shoot with a WP.
It is all part and parcel. The rules are "if X + Y then Z" where X is "Have WP" and Y is "roll the needed strike" then Z is "made called shot" thats the rules for called shots for modern weapons. That is why they are the rules for Modern Weapons... because the rules for OTHER THINGS are different.
If it was simply "called shots" which is what you are trying to do here I will add, then it would say "use the rules for called shots" it does not do so but instead specifically orders us to use one specific kind of called shot rule. If we follow your logic then the book is actually wrong and is directing us to something that does not exist... as there is no "rules for called shots as per modern weapons" because all called shots are the same and thus there is no such thing as a special type.
When the choice is choosing that the book is wrong and that someone else is right or that the book is right and the other person is wrong...the way to bet is that the book is right. That is why it is called the canon. The exception of course is the Line Editor.

[Blue_Lion]

So again I ask do you have a quote that says psi require a WP to make a called shot. Because all I have seen is that guns require them, but nothing addressing non guns.(A statement about the benefits of WP does not apply to things without WP, rule on the use of guns without WP just applies to guns.)

That would be Psiscape itself where it states that psionics are treated like modern weapons.
Psyscape page 33 "Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot (typically energy bolts) or to manipulate a psionic manifestation (ectoplasm, telekinesis, electrokinesis, etc) can make a "called shot". This means that the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon." (emphisis mine)
That tells us that psionics are treated identically to modern weapons for purposes of called shots.
Unless there has been a canon rule overturning this rule, then it is the canon rule.

Thus as per Psyscape psionics use the modern weapon rules.
And per RUE modern weapons require a WP.
Now if there is a specific statement somewhere that says that Psionics are no longer treated like modern weapons I am unaware of it, but would be interested in knowing about it.

I'd instead go with this view:
The Psyscape passage tells us two things:
1. Psychics can make Called Shots with certain psychic powers.
2. The rules for how these Called Shots work are the same as for modern weapons.

But that doesn't mean that the rules for acquiring the ability to make Called Shots is the same.
And it doesn't mean that the rules for psychic powers in general (or those psychic powers that can make called shots specifically) are the same as the rules for modern weapons.

The RUE 328/360 rule stating that a character with no gun proficiency can not make a Called Shot is a rule about Weapon Proficiencies for guns, NOT a rule about Called Shots.
The rules for Called Shots are on p. 361, and those are the rules that apply when making a Called Shot with psychic powers, just as they apply when making a shot with modern firearms.

This is the point I am making. I posted the rules for making called shots and a WP was not listed in it.

The benefits of WP are irrelevant to things that do not have WP and a rule for use of guns without WP is irrelevant to things that are not guns. Neither of those are a rule on how to make called shots, they are rules about WP that is irrelevant to psi that has no WP.(it never said treat them as guns, or modern weapons just the same rules apply for making a called shot.)

So again I ask is there any quote that requires WP for non-guns to do called shots.

You keep ignoring the fact that the rules for called shots for modern weapons which they work exactly like require WPs
I get that you dont want WPs and you want free and easy called shots. And frankly I dont think they intended to make psi called shots impossible in RUE.
But thats the way the rules are written.
It is not just "aquired" anymore than the rules for modern weapons are not part of WPs because you aquire the ability to shoot with a WP.
It is all part and parcel. The rules are "if X + Y then Z" where X is "Have WP" and Y is "roll the needed strike" then Z is "made called shot" thats the rules for called shots for modern weapons. That is why they are the rules for Modern Weapons... because the rules for OTHER THINGS are different.
If it was simply "called shots" which is what you are trying to do here I will add, then it would say "use the rules for called shots" it does not do so but instead specifically orders us to use one specific kind of called shot rule. If we follow your logic then the book is actually wrong and is directing us to something that does not exist... as there is no "rules for called shots as per modern weapons" because all called shots are the same and thus there is no such thing as a special type.
When the choice is choosing that the book is wrong and that someone else is right or that the book is right and the other person is wrong...the way to bet is that the book is right. That is why it is called the canon. The exception of course is the Line Editor.

I am not ignoring anything. They use the same rules for called shots as weapons but they are not weapons. You are mistaking rules for weapons for rules for called shots.

It never says Psi work eccacly like weapons that is something you created. Jus that they use the same called shot rules, rules about the use of guns with out a WP are not rules for a called shot and are not written to apply to anything not addressed by them.

It is not that I want called shots to be easy it is I am using rules for what they are written about.

A rule about the use of guns without WP is not he rule for called shots.
A refence to the benefits of WP is not a rule for called shots.

I quoted the rules for called shots as they are written in the book, the rule for called shot does not require a WP to do a called shot.

You are mistaking a rule about the use of guns with no proficiency for a rule that applies to something that is not even a weapon.

There are two theries here.
Theory 1 the book is wrong you can not do called shots with psi because have no WP and refences in the book with the change of rules of them doing it are wrong.


Theory 2 the book is right rules for use of guns without a skill are not rules for a called shot.


So theory 1 requires that two books have wrong information and applies a rule that is only adressing "guns without proficency" to psi.

Theory 2 requires that we believe the book and not apply rules for use of "guns without proficiency" to psi.


Theory 2 seams more believable to me than 1, it also requires that no book statement be wrong. (instead of looking for ways the books are wrong I am looking for how they are right as written.)

[Killer Cyborg]

So again I ask do you have a quote that says psi require a WP to make a called shot. Because all I have seen is that guns require them, but nothing addressing non guns.(A statement about the benefits of WP does not apply to things without WP, rule on the use of guns without WP just applies to guns.)

That would be Psiscape itself where it states that psionics are treated like modern weapons.
Psyscape page 33 "Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot (typically energy bolts) or to manipulate a psionic manifestation (ectoplasm, telekinesis, electrokinesis, etc) can make a "called shot". This means that the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon." (emphisis mine)
That tells us that psionics are treated identically to modern weapons for purposes of called shots.
Unless there has been a canon rule overturning this rule, then it is the canon rule.

Thus as per Psyscape psionics use the modern weapon rules.
And per RUE modern weapons require a WP.
Now if there is a specific statement somewhere that says that Psionics are no longer treated like modern weapons I am unaware of it, but would be interested in knowing about it.

I'd instead go with this view:
The Psyscape passage tells us two things:
1. Psychics can make Called Shots with certain psychic powers.
2. The rules for how these Called Shots work are the same as for modern weapons.

But that doesn't mean that the rules for acquiring the ability to make Called Shots is the same.
And it doesn't mean that the rules for psychic powers in general (or those psychic powers that can make called shots specifically) are the same as the rules for modern weapons.

The RUE 328/360 rule stating that a character with no gun proficiency can not make a Called Shot is a rule about Weapon Proficiencies for guns, NOT a rule about Called Shots.
The rules for Called Shots are on p. 361, and those are the rules that apply when making a Called Shot with psychic powers, just as they apply when making a shot with modern firearms.

This is the point I am making. I posted the rules for making called shots and a WP was not listed in it.

The benefits of WP are irrelevant to things that do not have WP and a rule for use of guns without WP is irrelevant to things that are not guns. Neither of those are a rule on how to make called shots, they are rules about WP that is irrelevant to psi that has no WP.(it never said treat them as guns, or modern weapons just the same rules apply for making a called shot.)

So again I ask is there any quote that requires WP for non-guns to do called shots.

You keep ignoring the fact that the rules for called shots for modern weapons which they work exactly like require WPs

No, they don't.
The rules for Modern Weapon Proficiencies require characters to have a WP before they can make Called Shots.
The rules for Called Shots don't mention any such requirements.
The rules for Psionic Called Shots uses the rules for Called Shots, not the rules for Modern Weapon Proficiencies.
When the book says "Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon," it's not talking about all rules that apply to modern weapons--it's talking strictly about the Called Shot rules.

Which means that your argument seems to work out like this:
(where x=Rules for Called Shots as applied to modern weapons, and y=Rules for Modern Weapon Proficiencies)
Premise 1: Psionic Called Shots use X.
Premise 2: Y requires a WP in order to make a Called Shot.
Conclusion: Psionic Called Shots require a WP to make a Called Shot.

Which is not a valid argument.

[eliakon]

I am not ignoring anything. They use the same rules for called shots as weapons but they are not weapons. You are mistaking rules for weapons for rules for called shots.

No sir, you are.
You are trying to claim that "the same rules apply as with modern weapons" does not, in point of fact mean that they use the same rules as modern weapons but instead use a different set of rules that do not apply to modern weapons.
That is a rather fascinating stance I must say.
Because the sad fact is that the rules for called shots for modern weapons state that WPs are part of the rules.

It never says Psi work eccacly like weapons that is something you created. Jus that they use the same called shot rules, rules about the use of guns with out a WP are not rules for a called shot and are not written to apply to anything not addressed by them.

Um no, just no.
That is something YOU are creating from whole cloth
The exact words are "the same rules apply as with modern weapons"
so yes, they work exactly like modern weapons because, wait for it... they use the same rules.

It is not that I want called shots to be easy it is I am using rules for what they are written about.

Except that you are not using the rules for modern weapons as instructed to by the book.

A rule about the use of guns without WP is not he rule for called shots.
A refence to the benefits of WP is not a rule for called shots.

Except it is. No seriously it is. It is as much part of the rules for called shots as the hit roll. It is telling us what the conditions that must be met to make a called shot. You have to have the skill, announce the shot, and make the roll.
That is quite literally the rules for modern weapons.
And that is also quite literally what we are instructed to use for pisonics.

I quoted the rules for called shots as they are written in the book, the rule for called shot does not require a WP to do a called shot.

Correct you posted the rules for general called shots. Not called shots with modern weapons. You keep ignoring that the book clearly states that you have to use the rules for modern weapons.
If you ignore the specific rules applicable to modern weapons then you are not using the modern weapon rules.
It really is that simple.

You are mistaking a rule about the use of guns with no proficiency for a rule that applies to something that is not even a weapon.

Except that the book says otherwise.
The book says that they are to be treated identically to modern weapons. To do otherwise is changing the printed material.

There are two theries here.
Theory 1 the book is wrong you can not do called shots with psi because have no WP and refences in the book with the change of rules of them doing it are wrong.


Theory 2 the book is right rules for use of guns without a skill are not rules for a called shot.


So theory 1 requires that two books have wrong information and applies a rule that is only adressing "guns without proficency" to psi.

Theory 2 requires that we believe the book and not apply rules for use of "guns without proficiency" to psi.


Theory 2 seams more believable to me than 1, it also requires that no book statement be wrong. (instead of looking for ways the books are wrong I am looking for how they are right as written.)

Your two theories though are both false.
They are predicated on the false premise that one can selectively ignore rules at will.
The WP part of the rule is just as valid as the roll to strike part. Because they are both part of how a called shot works for modern weapons.
By your argument no one needs a WP to make a called shot with a rifle either. Since under your interpretation the rules for making a called shot with a modern weapon do not include the requirement for having the WP. After all, you are stating that announcing the strike and rolling are the sum total and exclusive whole of the rules that surround called shots and that any other material is neither a rule nor applicable...thus the rules that apply to modern weapons do not include any need for a W.P.
I reject that premise as false as we can clearly see that you are required to have a W.P. to make a called shot with a rifle.
Therefore there is something inherently different between a called shot with a rifle and a called shot with, for example a sword.
Thus the rules for called shots with modern weapons are quantifiably different than other called shot rules. To wit, they require a WP in addition to all other criteria.
And as such anything else that uses the same rules as modern weapons is also required to also use the rules that modern weapons use and not the more lenient general rules.

The two theories that are at play here are thus
1) that anything and everything can make a called shot with no WP
2) modern weapons and anything that uses those rules can only make a called shot with an apropriate WP

[shadrak]

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot (typically energy bolts) or to manipulate a psionic manifestation (ectoplasm, telekinesis, electrokinesis, etc.) can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

"Modern Weapon"....

Gun or Vibroblade?

In context, I think the intent was gun...

But, if I recall correctly, before RUE you could make a called shot without a WP...

And forcing someone to have a WP in order to make a called shot seems a little weird anyway.

[Blue_Lion]

NO I am claiming the using the same rules as modern weapons for called shot means use the rules for called shot not the rules for weapon proficiency.
The rule for use of guns without proficiency is a separate rule than the rule for how to make a called shot.(This has been clearly stated by me and killer cyborg.)
The rules for called shots are found on page 361.
The rules on page 360 are for Weapon proficiency.
Psi using the rules for called shots on page 361 would be using the same rules for called shots as modern weapon prophecies thus meeting the quote from psiscape.
Treating psi like exactly like guns and aping the rule on page 360 that is incompatible with psi getting a bonus to strike, is going beyond what is called for by the statement and requires refences of called shots by psi in RUE be wrong.


Using the same rule for called shots does not = being identical to modern weapon or prophecies. That is false equivalency. Many of the rules for modern weapons do not apply to psi. -example- the rule(use of guns with no proficiency) you claim applies to psi says you do not get any bonuses to strike with no wp but mindbolt has no wp and gets a bonus to strike. That makes the rule for guns without proficiency incompatible with psi getting a bonus.

Actually Eliakon you are the one presenting false theories.


There was no claim that anything and every thing can do called shots without WP. I was quite clear that the rule for use of guns does apply to them. That is a straw man of your own creation.


The theory you support requires that 1 the statement in psiscapte saying that psi can do a called shot be wrong, 2 it also requires refences in tellakenis and hydrokinisis of called shots in RUE to be wrong, 3 further it applies a rule that by its own wording limits it to guns(including energy weapons) to something that is clearly not a gun let alone a weapon. (so requires two books statements be wrong and apply a rule for guns to non guns. Just like I said.)


The Theory I support does apply the rule for called shot that I quoted but limits the rule for guns to guns. It also limits statements of the benefits of WP to things with WP. (so does not apply the rule for use of guns to non guns just like I said.)


So the theory you support requires multiple books be wrong, the theory I support does not.

[Blue_Lion]

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot (typically energy bolts) or to manipulate a psionic manifestation (ectoplasm, telekinesis, electrokinesis, etc.) can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

"Modern Weapon"....

Gun or Vibroblade?

In context, I think the intent was gun...

But, if I recall correctly, before RUE you could make a called shot without a WP...

And forcing someone to have a WP in order to make a called shot seems a little weird anyway.

The rule in question specifically adressing guns, it says without a weapon profiecny you do not know how to properly use the sigts then in the note says you can not do called or aimed shots. So it does make sense that if some one is not profiency with a gun they lack the skill to hit a bulls-eye target. Appling the rule to things that are not aimed with sights or even use wp does seam weird like you said as well as being outside the stated aplication of the rule.

[Blue_Lion]

Lets take a look at the rule that is being applicable.

No Weapon Proficiency (W.P.) Anybody who does not have a W.P. in a particular weapon type CAN pick up a gun (including energy weapons) and use it, but does so without benefit of any bonuses. The bonuses that follow do not apply to this unskilled character, but a weapon can still be deadly in his hands. P.P. attribute bonuses and Hand to Hand combat bonuses do NOT apply to modern weapons. Furthermore, the untrained shooter does not know how to reload or recharge the weapon, clean it nor anything about ammunition, the gun's kick, how to use a gun sight to aim accurately, where to put an E-Clip, or anything about guns or gun safety - all he can do is pick it up, aim as best he can and pull the trigger. Note: A character with no gun proficiency rolls 1D20 with no bonuses to strike, can NOT make an Aimed Shot or a Called Shot and suffers a penalty of -3 to strike with burst attacks, -5 to strike when shooting a machine-gun or other heavy weapon, and -6 when shooting wild.

So looking at the whole rule it is a rule for not having a W.P. but focused on what is calls guns. It is a rule about Weapon proficiencies not a rule about called shots. The Note seams to be clarifications on what they mean by not knowing how to use the gun sights and all they can do is pull the trigger. It is not a rule on how to make called shots but a rule on lack of weapon proficiencies as it applies to guns.(not cherry picking a partial line but looking at what the rule itself is to see it in context. In context it does not apply to psi.)

Now does it make sense that a Mindmelter needs to know how to use sights to shoot a mind bolt accurately?
Does it makes sense for a rule about W.P. to apply so something that is not a weapon with a W.P.?

Seams the context of the rule excludes it from applying to psi.

[ShadowLogan]

Psyscape page 33 "Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot (typically energy bolts) or to manipulate a psionic manifestation (ectoplasm, telekinesis, electrokinesis, etc) can make a "called shot". This means that the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon." (emphisis mine)

Wouldn't the easy way be to refer to the Modern Weapon Rules in effect when WB12 was written as opposed to later version of the rules to avoid the issue entirely? Yes I get the rules changed between RMB-RUE with WB12 being written between them.

[eliakon]

Psyscape page 33 "Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot (typically energy bolts) or to manipulate a psionic manifestation (ectoplasm, telekinesis, electrokinesis, etc) can make a "called shot". This means that the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon." (emphisis mine)

Wouldn't the easy way be to refer to the Modern Weapon Rules in effect when WB12 was written as opposed to later version of the rules to avoid the issue entirely? Yes I get the rules changed between RMB-RUE with WB12 being written between them.

That may be true.
But if people want to use an RMB era rule to justify an ability in RUE then sadly they get the good with the bad.
In RMB for example those called shots were one action, had smaller penalties and a target of 12, in RUE they take 2 actions a different set of penalties and a target of 8. By this logic the psi should be allowed to use all the RMB rules as well.
Which doesn't make sense.
So no, you have to use the RUE rules. Which, sadly means that no called shots with psionics abilities with out first buying W.P. Psionics.

And yes, a house rule to avoid this is possible. That is after all what most of the people here are advocating. Simply houseruling that the psion only use the generic called shot rules and not the modern weapon ones and *presto* called shots are back in town.

[Killer Cyborg]

Lets take a look at the rule that is being applicable.

No Weapon Proficiency (W.P.) Anybody who does not have a W.P. in a particular weapon type CAN pick up a gun (including energy weapons) and use it, but does so without benefit of any bonuses. The bonuses that follow do not apply to this unskilled character, but a weapon can still be deadly in his hands. P.P. attribute bonuses and Hand to Hand combat bonuses do NOT apply to modern weapons. Furthermore, the untrained shooter does not know how to reload or recharge the weapon, clean it nor anything about ammunition, the gun's kick, how to use a gun sight to aim accurately, where to put an E-Clip, or anything about guns or gun safety - all he can do is pick it up, aim as best he can and pull the trigger. Note: A character with no gun proficiency rolls 1D20 with no bonuses to strike, can NOT make an Aimed Shot or a Called Shot and suffers a penalty of -3 to strike with burst attacks, -5 to strike when shooting a machine-gun or other heavy weapon, and -6 when shooting wild.

So looking at the whole rule it is a rule for not having a W.P. but focused on what is calls guns. It is a rule about Weapon proficiencies not a rule about called shots.

Exactly.
The fact that the rules for Called Shots for modern weapons apply to psionics does not mean that the rules for Weapon Proficiencies for modern weapons apply to Psionics.

[The Beast]

World Book 12 (Psyscape) page 33, right column under Range

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

With RUE now requiring WP to make called shots (instead of allowing anybody to do them as long as they roll 12 or better) how do we deal with this? Use the old 12+ rules? Forbid psi from making called shots anymore? Created new WP skills?

Would one WP slot per power be reasonable? What gun would be the best match for bonuses?

Seeing how WB12 was written with the RMB in mind and not yet updated to the RUE you should be using the rules WB12 is directing us to, not the rules that are currently in effect, but just for this particular situation. Then the GM should be modifying the old rules to fit into the rules that GM uses.

So for example, in the group I currently play in, our GM would have us make a ranged-strike roll using the RUE rules (meaning 8 or better), and if the player got a 12 or better they'd potentially strike the specific target. Yet to do the same with a weapon we'd still need the appropriate WP skill.

[eliakon]

World Book 12 (Psyscape) page 33, right column under Range

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

With RUE now requiring WP to make called shots (instead of allowing anybody to do them as long as they roll 12 or better) how do we deal with this? Use the old 12+ rules? Forbid psi from making called shots anymore? Created new WP skills?

Would one WP slot per power be reasonable? What gun would be the best match for bonuses?

Seeing how WB12 was written with the RMB in mind and not yet updated to the RUE you should be using the rules WB12 is directing us to, not the rules that are currently in effect, but just for this particular situation. Then the GM should be modifying the old rules to fit into the rules that GM uses.

So for example, in the group I currently play in, our GM would have us make a ranged-strike roll using the RUE rules (meaning 8 or better), and if the player got a 12 or better they'd potentially strike the specific target. Yet to do the same with a weapon we'd still need the appropriate WP skill.

That is one of many possible house rules that a GM can implement to change the canon to suit them yes.
But the fact that the game has changed editions doesn't mean that people can use the old rules if they prefer. And yes, sometimes this means that things that were easy before are not easy now. Sometimes this is intentional. They deliberately made called shots harder in RUE. The idea that they made them harder for everyone and everything except psionic powers is not even remotely plausible.

I don't get what the big issue here is.
I have yet to see a psionic class that does not allow WP of choice.
The idea that you might have to spend some time mastering the intricacies of your abilities to use them at their best to pull off trick shots seems to be, frankly, a no brainer here.

[13eowulf]

So in reading through all of this, and in reading through all the sections in Psyscape and the RUE, I initially had a really long post typed out, going through all the different text sections.

Then it hit me. This is all about bonuses. Good Grief.
I thought there was something important being debated and hotly contested. But it seems that cutting through all the pretext it is the "my Hand to Hand and P.P. bonuses should count for a ranged attack" argument by other words.

Original post draft, unfinished after epiphany

Spoiler:

I am trying to get a handle on the debate here, and the point or points of contention, please bear with me as I talk this out ‘aloud’.

So the contention is all around this passage from Psyscape, pg 33:

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot (typically energy bolts) or to manipulate a psionic manifestation (ectoplasm, telekinesis, electrokinesis, etc.) can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modem weapon.

The Ranged Combat section in the RUE that contains the called shot rules spans pages 360-368, but it seems safe to say that pages 362-368 are being disregarded as not applicable by all parties (the Gun Terms section, the entire Missile Combat section, and the Surviving an Aircraft Crash-Landing section).

This leaves pages 360-361. Those pages contain the Modern Weapon Proficiency (W.P.) section, the No Weapon Proficiency (W.P.) section, the Traditional Guns & Energy Weapons section, the Weapon Modifiers section, the Penalties section, and the Dodging Bullets & Energy Blasts section, as well as a quick reference chart covering various bonuses and penalties.

On page 360 the Traditional Guns & Energy Weapons section would be inapplicable, as it is providing specific bonuses for specific weapons per each W.P. This does not seem to be in contention by either party. That leaves the Modern Weapon Proficiency (W.P.) section and the No Weapons Proficiency (W.P.) section as what seems to be the main point of contention. Before I address that, I want to make sure that I understand the rest of the sections, and how they apply

On page 361, the Weapon Modifiers section is where the Called Shot description is. The subsections here are: Bonuses, Aimed Shot Bonuses, A “Called Shot” target specification, Rapid-Fire Pulse, Rolling a Natural Twenty to Strike, Single Shot, and Simultaneous Dual (Double or Twin) Blasts. Going back to the passage from Psyscape, “Same rules apply as when using a modem weapon”: the section for A “Called Shot” target specification is of course applicable, explicitly and primarily so. That section cannot function without the Single Shot section, so Single Shot is tacitly applicable as being the basic game mechanic Called Shot evolves from (but otherwise not really here nor there). The Aimed Shot Bonus section would apply, as it is explicitly referenced in the Called Shot section. Rolling a Natural Twenty to Strike would seem applicable, as would Bonuses, as both apply to the Called Shot. The Rapid-Fire Pulse section and Simultaneous Dual (Double or Twin) Blasts would not apply, as the Called Shot section specifies single shots.

Regarding the remaining sections on page 361 It would seem that the quick-reference chart applies, the Dodging Bullets & Energy Blasts section applies (excepting of course when the power provides special rules or instruction that contradicts or modifies this, as with all things). All of the penalties section seems applicable, save for the Shooting Bursts and Shooting Beyond the Effective Range, as (despite phrasing focusing on firearms due to the section they are contained in) they all apply to the Called Shot, which is what we are told to use.

So, given the above it would seem that effectively at least the second paragraph of the Modern Weapon Proficiency (W.P.) section on page 360 is... well not so much applicable as already effectively applied given the text in Psyscape. The first paragraph is just in general not applicable to Psi Powers.

That leaves the No Weapon Proficiency (W.P.) section. The only part of this section that I can see leading to any point of contention is the text that states “The bonuses that follow do not apply to this unskilled character, but a weapon can still be deadly in his hands. P.P. attribute bonuses and Hand to Hand combat bonuses do NOT apply to modern weapons”, which appears not to be a specific penalty for not having a W.P., but a general reminder for ALL parts of the Ranged Weapons section, pages 360-368... which would include Called Shots....

[lather]

But the fact that the game has changed editions doesn't mean that people can use the old rules if they prefer.

That is an interesting House Rule.

[ShadowLogan]

That may be true.
But if people want to use an RMB era rule to justify an ability in RUE then sadly they get the good with the bad.
In RMB for example those called shots were one action, had smaller penalties and a target of 12, in RUE they take 2 actions a different set of penalties and a target of 8. By this logic the psi should be allowed to use all the RMB rules as well.
Which doesn't make sense.
So no, you have to use the RUE rules. Which, sadly means that no called shots with psionics abilities with out first buying W.P. Psionics.

And yes, a house rule to avoid this is possible. That is after all what most of the people here are advocating. Simply houseruling that the psion only use the generic called shot rules and not the modern weapon ones and *presto* called shots are back in town.

THe main hang up isn't RMB vs RUE in this case, its if the player group has both books. And you really wouldn't be a conflict since psychics are only using the old rules.

Regardless though the solution at this point is going to be a house rule since you are dealing with a book from RMB-era and trying to use it in a RUE-era.

The problem with requiring WP as I see it in this case is do you require a WP for each power or would it just be one that covers all? That is where I think that it should just be assumed you have a WP with the power automatically or the WP requirement does not apply (the end result is the same). It should also be added that without a WP for a ranged attack you might be considered to be shooting wild (which seems unlikely, some of the powers have strike bonuses) and there is some indication that you "learn" to use psychic powers (Psi-Sword by Cyber-knights and Amaki Duelists for ex).

[eliakon]

But the fact that the game has changed editions doesn't mean that people can use the old rules if they prefer.

That is an interesting House Rule.

Actually it is the rules. That is what editions means.
Now you can, if you prefer, use a House Rule to use the old rule by all means.
But you can't simply go back and claim that you are allowed to use the old rules from the old books as part of the new game and claim that that is some how 'official'
(now if your trying to twist my statement to try and imply that I am saying you can't use what ever house rules you like then please try to keep your comments to constructive ones instead of trying to twist things into attacks)

[lather]

But the fact that the game has changed editions doesn't mean that people can use the old rules if they prefer.

That is an interesting House Rule.

Actually it is the rules. That is what editions means.
Now you can, if you prefer, use a House Rule to use the old rule by all means.
But you can't simply go back and claim that you are allowed to use the old rules from the old books as part of the new game and claim that that is some how 'official'
(now if your trying to twist my statement to try and imply that I am saying you can't use what ever house rules you like then please try to keep your comments to constructive ones instead of trying to twist things into attacks)

On which page in RUE will I find all of this?

[13eowulf]

But the fact that the game has changed editions doesn't mean that people can use the old rules if they prefer.

That is an interesting House Rule.

Actually it is the rules. That is what editions means.
Now you can, if you prefer, use a House Rule to use the old rule by all means.
But you can't simply go back and claim that you are allowed to use the old rules from the old books as part of the new game and claim that that is some how 'official'
(now if your trying to twist my statement to try and imply that I am saying you can't use what ever house rules you like then please try to keep your comments to constructive ones instead of trying to twist things into attacks)

On which page in RUE will I find all of this?

The Ranged Combat section in the RUE that contains the called shot rules spans pages 360-368
However only the text on pages 360 and 361 is being debated, 362-368 is mainly missile combat.

[lather]

But the fact that the game has changed editions doesn't mean that people can use the old rules if they prefer.

That is an interesting House Rule.

Actually it is the rules. That is what editions means.
Now you can, if you prefer, use a House Rule to use the old rule by all means.
But you can't simply go back and claim that you are allowed to use the old rules from the old books as part of the new game and claim that that is some how 'official'
(now if your trying to twist my statement to try and imply that I am saying you can't use what ever house rules you like then please try to keep your comments to constructive ones instead of trying to twist things into attacks)

On which page in RUE will I find all of this?

The Ranged Combat section in the RUE that contains the called shot rules spans pages 360-368
However only the text on pages 360 and 361 is being debated, 362-368 is mainly missile combat.

I appreciate the response. I am asking for the RAW that says using older rules in a new game is unofficial. Bearing in mind that RUE explicitly greenlights and suggests using older versions of RUE's rules. It's an interesting thing when random internet people proclaim what is official is not in line with what we're told is official (saying nothing of such a thing violating the spirit of Rifts and recalling the one time Kevin has weighed in on a rules question in this forum, he gave a few House Rules and concluded it is "ultimately" the GM's call).

[13eowulf]

That is an interesting House Rule.

Actually it is the rules. That is what editions means.
Now you can, if you prefer, use a House Rule to use the old rule by all means.
But you can't simply go back and claim that you are allowed to use the old rules from the old books as part of the new game and claim that that is some how 'official'
(now if your trying to twist my statement to try and imply that I am saying you can't use what ever house rules you like then please try to keep your comments to constructive ones instead of trying to twist things into attacks)

On which page in RUE will I find all of this?

The Ranged Combat section in the RUE that contains the called shot rules spans pages 360-368
However only the text on pages 360 and 361 is being debated, 362-368 is mainly missile combat.

I appreciate the response. I am asking for the RAW that says using older rules in a new game is unofficial. Bearing in mind that RUE explicitly greenlights and suggests using older versions of RUE's rules. It's an interesting thing when random internet people proclaim what is official is not in line with what we're told is official (saying nothing of such a thing violating the spirit of Rifts and recalling the one time Kevin has weighed in on a rules question in this forum, he gave a few House Rules and concluded it is "ultimately" the GM's call).

I would take the shadow updates to later printings of older books, such a Atlantis, the CWC, and Juicer Uprising, that remove RMB era text, like secondary skills being taken from the 'above list' and replacing such text with RUE era text, such as a note referring the reader to the RUE secondary skills list, as evidence that the RUE is intended to be used over the RMB, canonically.
Note that the secondary skills thing is just one example. Another is removing explicit references to the RMB for spells or psionics, and replacing them with explicit references to the RUE.

[lather]

I would take the shadow updates to later printings of older books, such a Atlantis, the CWC, and Juicer Uprising, that remove RMB era text, like secondary skills being taken from the 'above list' and replacing such text with RUE era text, such as a note referring the reader to the RUE secondary skills list, as evidence that the RUE is intended to be used over the RMB, canonically.
Note that the secondary skills thing is just one example. Another is removing explicit references to the RMB for spells or psionics, and replacing them with explicit references to the RUE.

Which is fine, but it's not an answer to my question and I don't want to go too far off the question I asked. But I will point out that RUE explicitly says those books you mentioned are not canon.

[eliakon]

I would take the shadow updates to later printings of older books, such a Atlantis, the CWC, and Juicer Uprising, that remove RMB era text, like secondary skills being taken from the 'above list' and replacing such text with RUE era text, such as a note referring the reader to the RUE secondary skills list, as evidence that the RUE is intended to be used over the RMB, canonically.
Note that the secondary skills thing is just one example. Another is removing explicit references to the RMB for spells or psionics, and replacing them with explicit references to the RUE.

Which is fine, but it's not an answer to my question and I don't want to go too far off the question I asked. But I will point out that RUE explicitly says those books you mentioned are not canon.

RMB isn't canon as all its rules got superceeded by RUE
Therefore it doesnt matter about psyscapes edition.
No really it doesnt.
Because Psyscape does not say "use the called shot rules found in the RMB"
It says "use the rules for modern weapons" which means that you then... go to the rules for modern weapons... which are in RUE not RMB.
Period. Dot. End of story. The canon rules for modern weapons are in RUE not RMB. There are exactly no rules in RMB.
Now sure, a group can choose to use the defunct RMB rules. But those rules are no longer canon which means to use them you would have to make a House Rule to use them.

[lather]

I would take the shadow updates to later printings of older books, such a Atlantis, the CWC, and Juicer Uprising, that remove RMB era text, like secondary skills being taken from the 'above list' and replacing such text with RUE era text, such as a note referring the reader to the RUE secondary skills list, as evidence that the RUE is intended to be used over the RMB, canonically.
Note that the secondary skills thing is just one example. Another is removing explicit references to the RMB for spells or psionics, and replacing them with explicit references to the RUE.

Which is fine, but it's not an answer to my question and I don't want to go too far off the question I asked. But I will point out that RUE explicitly says those books you mentioned are not canon.

RMB isn't canon as all its rules got superceeded by RUE
Therefore it doesnt matter about psyscapes edition.
No really it doesnt.
Because Psyscape does not say "use the called shot rules found in the RMB"
It says "use the rules for modern weapons" which means that you then... go to the rules for modern weapons... which are in RUE not RMB.
Period. Dot. End of story. The canon rules for modern weapons are in RUE not RMB. There are exactly no rules in RMB.
Now sure, a group can choose to use the defunct RMB rules. But those rules are no longer canon which means to use them you would have to make a House Rule to use them.

On which page in RUE will I find all of this?

[Axelmania]

The mechanics for a called shot do not require a weapon proficency.

The block on making called shots for no weapon proficency is found in rules for use of weapons without proficiency not in rules for called shot.

What other "rules for called shot" exist in RUE other than those in the Modern Weapons section which specify requiring a WP skill?

Basically there is nothing saying you require a WP to make a called shot with Psi powers.

Not directly, but put 1 and 1 together and you get 2. We're not directly specifically told you need a WP to make a called shot as it pertains to each individual model of firearm, for example, but because there are general rules for guns we're told to use, you can reach that conclusion.

There is something saying if you are using a weapon without a WP you can not make a called shot.

(The book you are quoting was written before RUE changed the rules.)

Yes but Psyscape has been reprinted after RUE came out in 2005, so the statement is affirmed, and not contradicted.

"...A character with no gun proficiency rolls 1d20 with no bonuses to strike, can NOT make an Aimed Shot or a Called Shot..."

Seems pretty black and white there.

I just wondered about one potential way we might be able to squeak by here. Presently in RUE's system you can do these 4 things:

1 attack, make an un-called un-aimed shot
2 attacks, make an un-called aimed shot
2 attacks, make a called un-aimed shot
3 attacks, make a called aimed shot

The middle 2 options (either of which cost 2 attacks) is an "aimed shot" OR a "called shot". But neither is simultaneously an "aimed" AND a "called" shot. Page 361 references this a couple places:

left column: A carefully Aimed and Called Shot also gets the benefit of the +2 bonus to aim but counts as three melee attacks/actions.
right column: "Aimed" Called Shot: +2 to strike

It seems possible to interpret this as people without WP being un-able to do the 2-attack options (OR) but still being able to do the 3-attack option (AND). Which would solve a lot of weirdness.

[Blue_Lion]

I have already quoted the rules in RUE for doing a called shot. but because you asked for it. The rules for making a called shot that do not require a WP. are found on page 361

A "Called Shot" target specification. This is a shot that homes in on a specific part of a larger target, such as a bull's-eye, an opponent's head, hand, gun, radio, radio antenna, sensor cluster, spotlight, tires, etc., but counts as two melee attacks. To make a "Called Shot," the player must "call" or "announce" his character's intention; i.e. "I'm going to shoot the gun from his hand," aim and shoot. A carefully Aimed and Called Shot also gets the benefit of the +2 bonus to Aim but counts as three melee attacks/actions. On the other hand, a quickly aimed Called Shot only counts as two melee attacks, but does not count as a true Aimed shot and does NOT get the +2 bonus to strike. Penalties on a Called Shot: Furthermore, a bull's-eye or any small target is difficult to shoot, and even with an Aimed and/or Called Shot, the shooter suffers a penalty of -3 or -4 to strike (sometimes more depending on the target). Note: A "Called Shot" can only be tried with a single "sniper-style" shot, not a burst or when shooting wild.

What rule in RUE requires a WP to do called shots with psi? (hint it is not on page 361 that is only addressing guns as psi is not a gun, and that rule is incompatable with psi having a bonus to strike.)

Reprinting an old book when you run out does not change the date it was written or edited. So it can not change rules written after it by being reprinted.

And you are not putting 1 and 1 together to get 2. You taking a requirement to use the rules for called shots to apply rules for guns without WP.

Basically we have a statement that to do Y you need to do x, then you are saying can't do x because z when z unrelated to Y and not required to by x.

[Blue_Lion]

I would take the shadow updates to later printings of older books, such a Atlantis, the CWC, and Juicer Uprising, that remove RMB era text, like secondary skills being taken from the 'above list' and replacing such text with RUE era text, such as a note referring the reader to the RUE secondary skills list, as evidence that the RUE is intended to be used over the RMB, canonically.
Note that the secondary skills thing is just one example. Another is removing explicit references to the RMB for spells or psionics, and replacing them with explicit references to the RUE.

Which is fine, but it's not an answer to my question and I don't want to go too far off the question I asked. But I will point out that RUE explicitly says those books you mentioned are not canon.

RMB isn't canon as all its rules got superceeded by RUE
Therefore it doesnt matter about psyscapes edition.
No really it doesnt.
Because Psyscape does not say "use the called shot rules found in the RMB"
It says "use the rules for modern weapons" which means that you then... go to the rules for modern weapons... which are in RUE not RMB.
Period. Dot. End of story. The canon rules for modern weapons are in RUE not RMB. There are exactly no rules in RMB.
Now sure, a group can choose to use the defunct RMB rules. But those rules are no longer canon which means to use them you would have to make a House Rule to use them.

On which page in RUE will I find all of this?

It is the description of what RUE is. An updated and rewritten version of the original RPG. They no longer print the ogirnal book because RUE replaces it.
Putting its description in the book would be pointless.
http://palladium-store.com/1001/product ... ition.html

When the orginal book was removed from the offical catalog it was decanonised.

[Axelmania]

Blue Lion I think the issue here is some view 361 as a continuation of 360 and subject to the restriction it introduced.

[Blue_Lion]

Blue Lion I think the issue here is some view 361 as a continuation of 360 and subject to the restriction it introduced.

The wording as it is on 360 has wording that is exclusive to guns without proficency, thus by its own nature does not apply to things that are not guns. Page 360 does not tell you how to do a called shot, it tells you that when using a gun without proficiency you can not do a called shot or get a bonus. The wording does not address include or compatible with psi that have no gun proficiency. (Out of context the statement would require proficiency with a gun to do called shots with anything, in context it is only defining what they mean by not knowing how to use sights.)

Page 361 is telling you how to do a called shot.
So when they tell you the rules for making a called shot are the same as modern weapon profiency that does not mean they are being used esactly as guns or that rules that are esclusive to guns apply. It only means the rules under the subheading called shots apply.

All rules are a continuation of the game rules or rule set but some have limiting scopes and headings. Psi is out side the scope of the rules on page 360 as it is not a gun(well accept the psi slinger). Rules only apply to what they address, rules for making a melee strike do not make the target number for ranged attacks 4 even though ranged combat modern weapons is an extension of the rules for combat.

If psi is a gun then the rules on page 360 for use of a gun without profiency apply.
If psi is not a gun it is outside the scope of the rules on page 360.
The quote from psi-scape does say rules are the same as those found in modern weapons, but does not say that psi is treated as a gun.(not sure how people jump to that conclusion.)

Conclustion unless psi is a gun the rules on page 360 do not apply even with the quote from psi-scape.

Unless you have a quote that makes psi a gun, I think there is little left to be said.

[lather]

I would take the shadow updates to later printings of older books, such a Atlantis, the CWC, and Juicer Uprising, that remove RMB era text, like secondary skills being taken from the 'above list' and replacing such text with RUE era text, such as a note referring the reader to the RUE secondary skills list, as evidence that the RUE is intended to be used over the RMB, canonically.
Note that the secondary skills thing is just one example. Another is removing explicit references to the RMB for spells or psionics, and replacing them with explicit references to the RUE.

Which is fine, but it's not an answer to my question and I don't want to go too far off the question I asked. But I will point out that RUE explicitly says those books you mentioned are not canon.

RMB isn't canon as all its rules got superceeded by RUE
Therefore it doesnt matter about psyscapes edition.
No really it doesnt.
Because Psyscape does not say "use the called shot rules found in the RMB"
It says "use the rules for modern weapons" which means that you then... go to the rules for modern weapons... which are in RUE not RMB.
Period. Dot. End of story. The canon rules for modern weapons are in RUE not RMB. There are exactly no rules in RMB.
Now sure, a group can choose to use the defunct RMB rules. But those rules are no longer canon which means to use them you would have to make a House Rule to use them.

On which page in RUE will I find all of this?

It is the description of what RUE is. An updated and rewritten version of the original RPG. They no longer print the ogirnal book because RUE replaces it.
Putting its description in the book would be pointless.
http://palladium-store.com/1001/product ... ition.html

When the orginal book was removed from the offical catalog it was decanonised.

You're just restating the original opinion.

[rem1093]

Personally I think that a full HTH for magic and psychic powers would be better that just a WP. You could add in bonuses that would work with all the powers, and add a few abilities as well.

[eliakon]

Blue Lion I think the issue here is some view 361 as a continuation of 360 and subject to the restriction it introduced.

The wording as it is on 360 has wording that is exclusive to guns without proficency, thus by its own nature does not apply to things that are not guns. Page 360 does not tell you how to do a called shot, it tells you that when using a gun without proficiency you can not do a called shot or get a bonus. The wording does not address include or compatible with psi that have no gun proficiency. (Out of context the statement would require proficiency with a gun to do called shots with anything, in context it is only defining what they mean by not knowing how to use sights.)

Page 361 is telling you how to do a called shot.
So when they tell you the rules for making a called shot are the same as modern weapon profiency that does not mean they are being used esactly as guns or that rules that are esclusive to guns apply. It only means the rules under the subheading called shots apply.

All rules are a continuation of the game rules or rule set but some have limiting scopes and headings. Psi is out side the scope of the rules on page 360 as it is not a gun(well accept the psi slinger). Rules only apply to what they address, rules for making a melee strike do not make the target number for ranged attacks 4 even though ranged combat modern weapons is an extension of the rules for combat.

If psi is a gun then the rules on page 360 for use of a gun without profiency apply.
If psi is not a gun it is outside the scope of the rules on page 360.
The quote from psi-scape does say rules are the same as those found in modern weapons, but does not say that psi is treated as a gun.(not sure how people jump to that conclusion.)

Conclustion unless psi is a gun the rules on page 360 do not apply even with the quote from psi-scape.

Unless you have a quote that makes psi a gun, I think there is little left to be said.

which is all a very fancy song and dance way of saying that we should ignore the statement in Psiscape that they are treated the same as modern weapons.
I get it.
Your stance is that even though it says to use the modern weapon rules, that we don't really use those rules but instead just cherry pick out a few of the rules that apply to all weapons, modern and ancient.
The stance of the rest of us is that being told to use modern weapons rules means that we use the rules for modern weapons. All of the rules for modern weapons. And that since we are told to use those rules that the only way to use the rules for modern weapons is to treat psi as a modern weapon aka a gun. Since any other use of the rules would not be using the rules for modern weapons and thus would be directly ignoring the rules in psyscape.

[Killer Cyborg]

The quote from psi-scape does say rules are the same as those found in modern weapons, but does not say that psi is treated as a gun.(not sure how people jump to that conclusion.)

which is all a very fancy song and dance way of saying that we should ignore the statement in Psiscape that they are treated the same as modern weapons.
I get it.

That's nowhere close to fancy.
He's just pointing out that the rules don't say what you claim that they do.
Psionics are NOT treated as the same as modern weapons.

[Called Shots with Psionics] are treated the same as [Called Shots with modern weapons].

How do you not understand the distinction?

[eliakon]

The quote from psi-scape does say rules are the same as those found in modern weapons, but does not say that psi is treated as a gun.(not sure how people jump to that conclusion.)

which is all a very fancy song and dance way of saying that we should ignore the statement in Psiscape that they are treated the same as modern weapons.
I get it.

That's nowhere close to fancy.
He's just pointing out that the rules don't say what you claim that they do.
Psionics are NOT treated as the same as modern weapons.

[Called Shots with Psionics] are treated the same as [Called Shots with modern weapons].

How do you not understand the distinction?

Because the "modern weapons" part
Seriously its not hard people
If psionics were simply "psionics use the called shot rules" it would be exactly like he says.
But since they explicitly mention modern weapons that means that the intent is that modern weapons are relevant... otherwise they would not be mentioned.
The only difference between generic called shots, and the called shots for modern weapons are the WP portion of the rules.
That means that being threated the same as called shots with modern weapons means that they need a WP...
...since otherwise they are not the same as called shots with modern weapons but instead simply as called shots (modern, ancient, unarmed... what have you)

[shadrak]

The quote from psi-scape does say rules are the same as those found in modern weapons, but does not say that psi is treated as a gun.(not sure how people jump to that conclusion.)

which is all a very fancy song and dance way of saying that we should ignore the statement in Psiscape that they are treated the same as modern weapons.
I get it.

That's nowhere close to fancy.
He's just pointing out that the rules don't say what you claim that they do.
Psionics are NOT treated as the same as modern weapons.

[Called Shots with Psionics] are treated the same as [Called Shots with modern weapons].

How do you not understand the distinction?

Because the "modern weapons" part
Seriously its not hard people
If psionics were simply "psionics use the called shot rules" it would be exactly like he says.
But since they explicitly mention modern weapons that means that the intent is that modern weapons are relevant... otherwise they would not be mentioned.
The only difference between generic called shots, and the called shots for modern weapons are the WP portion of the rules.
That means that being threated the same as called shots with modern weapons means that they need a WP...
...since otherwise they are not the same as called shots with modern weapons but instead simply as called shots (modern, ancient, unarmed... what have you)

Is Killer Cyborg making a distinction without a difference?

I would agree that:

Psionics are NOT treated as the same as modern weapons.

[Called Shots with Psionics] are treated the same as [Called Shots with modern weapons].

Which would mean that, for the purposes of a called shot, Psionics ARE (per the canon) treated as modern weapons...at least for that one part...

Yet, it is a stupid rule that exists probably because of bad editing and not because of game mechanics...

So do the smart thing and ignore that stupid rule.

[dreicunan]

The quote from psi-scape does say rules are the same as those found in modern weapons, but does not say that psi is treated as a gun.(not sure how people jump to that conclusion.)

which is all a very fancy song and dance way of saying that we should ignore the statement in Psiscape that they are treated the same as modern weapons.
I get it.

That's nowhere close to fancy.
He's just pointing out that the rules don't say what you claim that they do.
Psionics are NOT treated as the same as modern weapons.

[Called Shots with Psionics] are treated the same as [Called Shots with modern weapons].

How do you not understand the distinction?

Because the "modern weapons" part
Seriously its not hard people
If psionics were simply "psionics use the called shot rules" it would be exactly like he says.
But since they explicitly mention modern weapons that means that the intent is that modern weapons are relevant... otherwise they would not be mentioned.
The only difference between generic called shots, and the called shots for modern weapons are the WP portion of the rules.
That means that being threated the same as called shots with modern weapons means that they need a WP...
...since otherwise they are not the same as called shots with modern weapons but instead simply as called shots (modern, ancient, unarmed... what have you)

It doesn't say that they are treated the same. It says that they follow the same rules. So if your psionic power also happens to be a modern weapon, then you need a wp in it to make a called shot. If your psionic power is not a modern weapon, then you don't need a wp to do so. Ranged psionic powers clearly aren't a modern weapon, therefore they aren't affected by the need for a WP.

[Killer Cyborg]

That's nowhere close to fancy.
He's just pointing out that the rules don't say what you claim that they do.
Psionics are NOT treated as the same as modern weapons.

[Called Shots with Psionics] are treated the same as [Called Shots with modern weapons].

How do you not understand the distinction?

Because the "modern weapons" part

So you understand the distinction in general between the requirements for doing something, and the rules for doing something, but in this case the inclusion of the words "modern weapons" lead you to overrule that understanding?

Seriously its not hard people

On this we agree.

If psionics were simply "psionics use the called shot rules" it would be exactly like he says.
But since they explicitly mention modern weapons that means that the intent is that modern weapons are relevant... otherwise they would not be mentioned.

Hm.
Well, this clarifies where you're coming from: you assume that there was a specific intent behind the inclusion of the phrase "Modern Weapons."
Okay... but what would that intent BE?
The idea that the author(s) of Psyscape deliberately hinged the ability to make Called Shots with Psionics on whether or not a psychic had a skill that doesn't exist anywhere... just seems like a non-starter to me.
Is that really what you believe the intent was?
(assuming for the moment that there was indeed any particular intent linked to that phrase)

The only difference between generic called shots, and the called shots for modern weapons are the WP portion of the rules.

That's not a difference between "generic called shots" and "the called shots for modern weapons," though.
In fact, I don't think that "generic called shots" and "the called shots for modern weapons" exist as separate things: there are only "the rules for called shots."

The requirement of having a WP for modern was only introduced (IIRC) in RUE.
That requirement is--as you've just pointed out--the ONLY difference between Modern Weapon Called Shots and any other kind of Called Shots*
*(As I've pointed out, it's not actually a difference between the rules for Called Shots, but rather the requirements. But let's ignore that for the moment)

Which means that when Psyscape was written, there were ZERO differences between the rules for modern weapons making Called Shots, and in any other weapons making Called Shots.

To me, that not only indicates that the writers had nothing specific in mind when they included the phrase "Modern Weapons" in that psyscape passage, but it actually necessitates it.
If there were no differences, then the inclusion of that phrase could not possibly have been intended to refer to any difference.

[shadrak]

If psionics were simply "psionics use the called shot rules" it would be exactly like he says.
But since they explicitly mention modern weapons that means that the intent is that modern weapons are relevant... otherwise they would not be mentioned.

Hm.
Well, this clarifies where you're coming from: you assume that there was a specific intent behind the inclusion of the phrase "Modern Weapons."
Okay... but what would that intent BE?
The idea that the author(s) of Psyscape deliberately hinged the ability to make Called Shots with Psionics on whether or not a psychic had a skill that doesn't exist anywhere... just seems like a non-starter to me.
Is that really what you believe the intent was?
(assuming for the moment that there was indeed any particular intent linked to that phrase)

There can be no intent attributed to the authors wording because when the author wrote those words the requirement did not exist...at the time the words were written the author's words simply meant apply the higher roll requirements associated with a called shot...but what the author said was "treat called shots with psionics like called shots with modern weapons"

After the author wrote those words, the author or another author wrote that, in order to make a called shot with a modern weapon, you MUST have a weapon proficiency (pretty dumb rule, but that is the rule they made)...

Which gives you the option of either meeting the letter of the rule or the intent of the rule...

And we all know that "intent" doesn't fly when you are talking about CANON...at least and until that intent is fully articulated...

So, in this case the canon is broken...so you can play with the crazy canon rules which aren't quite game breaking but don't make sense or you can find a work around...

Or you can get a Canon source to weigh in and correct the canon...which should have just been a RUE errata statement saying that Psionics DO NOT get treated like modern weapons with regard to called shots.

[Killer Cyborg]

If psionics were simply "psionics use the called shot rules" it would be exactly like he says.
But since they explicitly mention modern weapons that means that the intent is that modern weapons are relevant... otherwise they would not be mentioned.

Hm.
Well, this clarifies where you're coming from: you assume that there was a specific intent behind the inclusion of the phrase "Modern Weapons."
Okay... but what would that intent BE?
The idea that the author(s) of Psyscape deliberately hinged the ability to make Called Shots with Psionics on whether or not a psychic had a skill that doesn't exist anywhere... just seems like a non-starter to me.
Is that really what you believe the intent was?
(assuming for the moment that there was indeed any particular intent linked to that phrase)

There can be no intent attributed to the authors wording because when the author wrote those words the requirement did not exist...at the time the words were written the author's words simply meant apply the higher roll requirements associated with a called shot...but what the author said was "treat called shots with psionics like called shots with modern weapons"

After the author wrote those words, the author or another author wrote that, in order to make a called shot with a modern weapon, you MUST have a weapon proficiency (pretty dumb rule, but that is the rule they made)...

Which gives you the option of either meeting the letter of the rule or the intent of the rule...

And we all know that "intent" doesn't fly when you are talking about CANON...at least and until that intent is fully articulated...

But Eliakon's stance comes specifically from assuming an intent when it comes to including the words "modern weapons" in Psyscape.
Without that assumption, going letter of the law, all we're looking at is that the rules for making called shots are the same with Modern Weapons or with Psionics, and there's zilch saying anything about the requirements for making Called Shots being the same.
Canon is fine, if a bit weirdly worded.