W.P. Psionic Powers?

[Axelmania]

World Book 12 (Psyscape) page 33, right column under Range

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

With RUE now requiring WP to make called shots (instead of allowing anybody to do them as long as they roll 12 or better) how do we deal with this? Use the old 12+ rules? Forbid psi from making called shots anymore? Created new WP skills?

Would one WP slot per power be reasonable? What gun would be the best match for bonuses?

[eliakon]

World Book 12 (Psyscape) page 33, right column under Range

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

With RUE now requiring WP to make called shots (instead of allowing anybody to do them as long as they roll 12 or better) how do we deal with this? Use the old 12+ rules? Forbid psi from making called shots anymore? Created new WP skills?

Would one WP slot per power be reasonable? What gun would be the best match for bonuses?

RAW they would simply not be able to make called shots anymore, since the called shot rules were changed.
If a WP "psi" was created, it would not necisarily provide any bonuses. Simply allowing the use of skills and abilities that require the advanced training of a WP are in and of itself a bonus after all.
Especially since modern WPs bonuses are predicated on the notion that there are not going to be other bonuses avaliable. Thus if a person gets to use a moder WP bonus progression, and modern WP rules... then logically they would be treated as a Modern Weapon in all other ways... so no bonuses from H2H skills, or from stats, no use of complex manuvers et multiple cetera.

aka you can't have your cake and eat it to.

[Axelmania]

Page 30 of WB 4 Africa, War has Mind Bolt and "+ 8 to strike with bare hands , + 11 using any modern/energy weapon", and page 32 "the abilities to use any weapon as an expert"

It doesn't actually list him having a WP... though "skills of note" doesn't really exclude it. The "Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon" makes it sound like the "any modern/energy weapon" would benefit his Mind Bolts or his pyrokinesis fireballs.

[dragonfett]

I would say that any master level psychic effectively has WP in psychic powers for the purpose of called shots, just as a house rule.

[Mack]

I would say that any master level psychic effectively has WP in psychic powers for the purpose of called shots, just as a house rule.

Agreed.

It’s a common sense answer.

[Library Ogre]

I would require someone to take a WP in it, representing specific practice with targeting their powers.

[ShadowLogan]

World Book 12 (Psyscape) page 33, right column under Range

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

With RUE now requiring WP to make called shots (instead of allowing anybody to do them as long as they roll 12 or better) how do we deal with this? Use the old 12+ rules? Forbid psi from making called shots anymore? Created new WP skills?

Would one WP slot per power be reasonable? What gun would be the best match for bonuses?

With RUE in effect I would treat the psychic as having a WP requirement as not being in effect or the psychic power comes with a built-in WP skill (static though it might be). The end result is the same since RUE did not address the "range" term in the psychic section, WB12 isn't superseded in that aspect.

If I was to allow a skill slot for WP to be taken to improve accuracy, I'd probably use the old generic progression rate instead of trying to find the one that most matches for bonuses.

[Axelmania]

There are cases where you can get a psi-power via something, I think one of the bio-wizard items in Atlantis? I can't imagine someone using that for the first time having the WP, seems worth a secondary skill even if it's bonusless and solely with the benefit of making called shots, though I think it should at least gain the 'aim' option for +2.

[The Beast]

Page 30 of WB 4 Africa, War has Mind Bolt and "+ 8 to strike with bare hands , + 11 using any modern/energy weapon", and page 32 "the abilities to use any weapon as an expert"

It doesn't actually list him having a WP... though "skills of note" doesn't really exclude it. The "Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon" makes it sound like the "any modern/energy weapon" would benefit his Mind Bolts or his pyrokinesis fireballs.

Well if you bothered to read the rest of his abilities, you'd see he doesn't need any WPs.

[Mack]

It’s much simpler to just allow the psychic to make a called shot with a minor penalty than to invent a WP-equivalent and cost.

This is where Mind Bolt’s +8 to Strike becomes significant... because it’s going to overcome a lot of penalties.

[Blue_Lion]

World Book 12 (Psyscape) page 33, right column under Range

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

With RUE now requiring WP to make called shots (instead of allowing anybody to do them as long as they roll 12 or better) how do we deal with this? Use the old 12+ rules? Forbid psi from making called shots anymore? Created new WP skills?

Would one WP slot per power be reasonable? What gun would be the best match for bonuses?

Umm I must disagree here.
The text in RUE is that guns including energy weapons require a WP to do called shots.
The mechanic of how to do a called shot does not say it requires a WP to make a called called shot just that you announce the attempt.
So by RAW only guns require a WP for called shot.(some people might argue that the location limits called to just guns how ever the mechanic does not limit it, and matches earlier mechanics so I see no reason to think it is just for guns). The mechanic is in line with the wording of earlier called shots.(A gm could rule that it does but to me that seams a bit illogical do to the stated reason for guns having this limit)


My ruling would be types of attacks from sources other than guns (including energy weapons) do not require a WP to do a called shot. (based of the wording in the combat>range>modern weapon proficiency, the limit is attributed to not being able to use the sights of the gun properly. So logically to me does not apply to a powers/attacks that has no sights to aim with. )

[Axelmania]

Well if you bothered to read the rest of his abilities, you'd see he doesn't need any WPs.

I did read them. What are you referring to? He clearly doesn't need them for bonuses but with the new "you need a WP to make a called shot" making War unable to make called shots seems off.

This is different from similar abilities we've seen from Powers Unlimited or Sumimoto's "Warborn" in the Rifter, who get the WP when they merge.

types of attacks from sources other than guns (including energy weapons)

Aren't a lot of energy weapons also guns? What's this refer to, Wilks Laser Swords?

[Blue_Lion]

Well if you bothered to read the rest of his abilities, you'd see he doesn't need any WPs.

I did read them. What are you referring to? He clearly doesn't need them for bonuses but with the new "you need a WP to make a called shot" making War unable to make called shots seems off.

This is different from similar abilities we've seen from Powers Unlimited or Sumimoto's "Warborn" in the Rifter, who get the WP when they merge.

types of attacks from sources other than guns (including energy weapons)

Aren't a lot of energy weapons also guns? What's this refer to, Wilks Laser Swords?

The rule in question is talking about guns (including energy weapons). That is the text choice. And no a energy weapon is not a gun, guns are physical projectile weapons. A energy rifle is not a gun even though it uses similar skill.(why the heck you questioning me about this it is the text in the book.)

If we look at the text on page 360 of RUE
Anybody who doe not have a WP in a particular weapon type Can pick up a gun (including energy weapons) and use it, but without any bonuses. The bonuses that fallow do not apply to this unskilled character....Note: A character with no gun proficiency rolls 1d20 with no bonuses to strike, can not make aimed shot or a called shot.

We see the entire section is focused on just guns and energy weapons.
(What these means to melee weapons and picking them up is u p to the GM, but it is not addressed by this text as the text in question is only addressing the use of guns including energy weapons without the use of skill in said weapon.)
As mind bolt is not a weapon, let alone a gun (including energy weapons) this rule does not require a WP in mind bolt to do called shots. (By the wording in the text it could be augured that a gun skill of some type is required to make called shot in general. But by that line of thought it would not have to be a gun skill for the weapon in question.)

By the text in question there is no reason to require a WP skill in mind bolt to do a called shot.

There is no rule that says, means or implies WP mind bolt is required to do a called shot with mind bolt.

[Khanibal]

By the text in question there is no reason to require a WP skill in mind bolt to do a called shot.

There is no rule that says, means or implies WP mind bolt is required to do a called shot with mind bolt.

Yes, but, would you allow a player to expend an OCC Related skill to purchase WP Psionics (ranged)? Limit it to Master Psi only, just like Sharpshooter is limited to certain New West (tm, etc) professions.

[eliakon]

There is no rule that says, means or implies WP mind bolt is required to do a called shot with mind bolt.

But is there a canon rule in RUE (not RMB) that says that you CAN make a called shot with a mind bolt either?

That's the crux.
That there is no statement in any portion of the RUE canon that says that called shots are allowed for just anything.
I know that it is such a common house rule as to SEEM like a canon rule, much like the way that stats are rolled after picking the race instead of before like the RAW...
...but I still can not find an RUE rule that allows for called shots anywhere but in the Modern Weapons section, and in that section it explicitly states you need the WP to make the shot.
Yes, yes I know that modern combat is a sub-set of normal combat. But that does not mean that the specailized rules for modern combat apply to general combat... that is why there are sub-sets and not just one generic combat section.

[Blue_Lion]

By the text in question there is no reason to require a WP skill in mind bolt to do a called shot.

There is no rule that says, means or implies WP mind bolt is required to do a called shot with mind bolt.

Yes, but, would you allow a player to expend an OCC Related skill to purchase WP Psionics (ranged)? Limit it to Master Psi only, just like Sharpshooter is limited to certain New West (tm, etc) professions.

No need for such a skill.

[Blue_Lion]

There is no rule that says, means or implies WP mind bolt is required to do a called shot with mind bolt.

But is there a canon rule in RUE (not RMB) that says that you CAN make a called shot with a mind bolt either?

That's the crux.
That there is no statement in any portion of the RUE canon that says that called shots are allowed for just anything.
I know that it is such a common house rule as to SEEM like a canon rule, much like the way that stats are rolled after picking the race instead of before like the RAW...
...but I still can not find an RUE rule that allows for called shots anywhere but in the Modern Weapons section, and in that section it explicitly states you need the WP to make the shot.
Yes, yes I know that modern combat is a sub-set of normal combat. But that does not mean that the specailized rules for modern combat apply to general combat... that is why there are sub-sets and not just one generic combat section.

AS long as there is no conflict with the rules in a later book earlier books rules are still canon.
So the statement on Psyscape page 33 is still canon.(as it does not conflict with RUE)

Called shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim or shoot to manipulate a psiconic manifstation can make a "called shot."

So there is your valid currant canon statement that they can do it(As I said what it means for melee is up to the GM but in this case we have a valid rule to allow called shot with mind bolt as it require a strike roll.)

[eliakon]

There is no rule that says, means or implies WP mind bolt is required to do a called shot with mind bolt.

But is there a canon rule in RUE (not RMB) that says that you CAN make a called shot with a mind bolt either?

That's the crux.
That there is no statement in any portion of the RUE canon that says that called shots are allowed for just anything.
I know that it is such a common house rule as to SEEM like a canon rule, much like the way that stats are rolled after picking the race instead of before like the RAW...
...but I still can not find an RUE rule that allows for called shots anywhere but in the Modern Weapons section, and in that section it explicitly states you need the WP to make the shot.
Yes, yes I know that modern combat is a sub-set of normal combat. But that does not mean that the specailized rules for modern combat apply to general combat... that is why there are sub-sets and not just one generic combat section.

Called shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim or shoot to manipulate a psiconic manifstation can make a "called shot."

So there is your valid currant canon statement that they can do it(As I said what it means for melee is up to the GM but in this case we have a valid rule to allow called shot with mind bolt as it require a strike roll.)

AS long as there is no conflict with the rules in a later book earlier books rules are still canon.
So the statement on Psyscape page 33 is still canon.(as it does not conflict with RUE)

That's the point... my contention is that it DOES conflict with RUE.
More to the point the old rules that this is based on no longer exist. The entire called shot rules were removed and replaced with a new set of rules. Thus since they are an entirely new set of rules with entirely new set up and text we can safely assume that they are, in fact, new rules.
And as they are an entirely new set of rules with a totally new set up on how they are implemented, what they can be used on/for/by in a new section of the rules book and most importantly, the new rules impose new restrictions on the use of called shots. As such...that means that the new rules trump the old material.

[Blue_Lion]

There is no rule that says, means or implies WP mind bolt is required to do a called shot with mind bolt.

But is there a canon rule in RUE (not RMB) that says that you CAN make a called shot with a mind bolt either?

That's the crux.
That there is no statement in any portion of the RUE canon that says that called shots are allowed for just anything.
I know that it is such a common house rule as to SEEM like a canon rule, much like the way that stats are rolled after picking the race instead of before like the RAW...
...but I still can not find an RUE rule that allows for called shots anywhere but in the Modern Weapons section, and in that section it explicitly states you need the WP to make the shot.
Yes, yes I know that modern combat is a sub-set of normal combat. But that does not mean that the specailized rules for modern combat apply to general combat... that is why there are sub-sets and not just one generic combat section.

Called shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim or shoot to manipulate a psiconic manifstation can make a "called shot."

So there is your valid currant canon statement that they can do it(As I said what it means for melee is up to the GM but in this case we have a valid rule to allow called shot with mind bolt as it require a strike roll.)

AS long as there is no conflict with the rules in a later book earlier books rules are still canon.
So the statement on Psyscape page 33 is still canon.(as it does not conflict with RUE)

That's the point... my contention is that it DOES conflict with RUE.
More to the point the old rules that this is based on no longer exist. The entire called shot rules were removed and replaced with a new set of rules. Thus since they are an entirely new set of rules with entirely new set up and text we can safely assume that they are, in fact, new rules.
And as they are an entirely new set of rules with a totally new set up on how they are implemented, what they can be used on/for/by in a new section of the rules book and most importantly, the new rules impose new restrictions on the use of called shots. As such...that means that the new rules trump the old material.

Please explain how does it conflict. Because I see no conflict and as the book is still a valid source I see no issue.

You come across as saying all books before rue was written are invalid.

Note:Called shot has always been found in range combat. So its location in a subsection of ranged combat in RUE is not new. While the wording of the mechanic itself has changed, the function is still the same. Announce attempt, roll a 12 or higher. So called shot still works the same, just the wording in the text changed.

[The Beast]

I'm not seeing a conflict either. What I'm seeing is that as of RUE if you're using firearms or energy weapons of some kind you need a WP in said weapon to do a called shot. What I'm not seeing is anything saying you can't do called shots with any other kind of weapon, or that you need WPs to do called shots with those other weapons.

[eliakon]

I'm not seeing a conflict either. What I'm seeing is that as of RUE if you're using firearms or energy weapons of some kind you need a WP in said weapon to do a called shot. What I'm not seeing is anything saying you can't do called shots with any other kind of weapon, or that you need WPs to do called shots with those other weapons.

So then it should be simple to show where there are rules for called shots outside of using modern weapons and a WP.
Because as of RUE the new (and as far as I can tell, only) rules for Called Shots are spelled out in the modern weapons section.

Simply stateing that one can make a called shot because you used to be able to doesn't hold water. This is RUE not RMB.
In RMB, it is absolutely correct to state that no WP is necisary. But in RUE, they have made it abundantly clear that the WP is required...
as the section of rules where called shots are spelled out (modern weapons) it states you need a... wait for it modern weapon proficency. Ergo to use a called shot in another section you would need that section's W.P. as well. Or of course someone can cite an actual rule from RUE that says otherwise.

[Mack]

You guys are missing the forest for the trees.

[Axelmania]

And no a energy weapon is not a gun, guns are physical projectile weapons.
A energy rifle is not a gun even though it uses similar skill.
(why the heck you questioning me about this it is the text in the book.)

Anybody who doe not have a WP in a particular weapon type Can pick up a gun (including energy weapons)

Didn't you just contradict yourself here?

I'm not seeing a conflict either. What I'm seeing is that as of RUE if you're using firearms or energy weapons of some kind you need a WP in said weapon to do a called shot. What I'm not seeing is anything saying you can't do called shots with any other kind of weapon, or that you need WPs to do called shots with those other weapons.

Valid point, it's mostly that since it's not covered at all, we're left guessing as to whether it's a free benefit, whether it takes an added attack like guns, whether it takes a higher number like the days of old, etc.

[The Beast]

I'm not seeing a conflict either. What I'm seeing is that as of RUE if you're using firearms or energy weapons of some kind you need a WP in said weapon to do a called shot. What I'm not seeing is anything saying you can't do called shots with any other kind of weapon, or that you need WPs to do called shots with those other weapons.

So then it should be simple to show where there are rules for called shots outside of using modern weapons and a WP.
Because as of RUE the new (and as far as I can tell, only) rules for Called Shots are spelled out in the modern weapons section.

Simply stateing that one can make a called shot because you used to be able to doesn't hold water. This is RUE not RMB.
In RMB, it is absolutely correct to state that no WP is necisary. But in RUE, they have made it abundantly clear that the WP is required...
as the section of rules where called shots are spelled out (modern weapons) it states you need a... wait for it modern weapon proficency. Ergo to use a called shot in another section you would need that section's W.P. as well. Or of course someone can cite an actual rule from RUE that says otherwise.

If it's clear then show us exactly where it says you can't do called shots in melee.

[Library Ogre]

You guys are missing the forest for the trees.

It's the PalladiumFan Way[sup]TM[/sup].

[Blue_Lion]

And no a energy weapon is not a gun, guns are physical projectile weapons.
A energy rifle is not a gun even though it uses similar skill.
(why the heck you questioning me about this it is the text in the book.)

Anybody who doe not have a WP in a particular weapon type Can pick up a gun (including energy weapons)

Didn't you just contradict yourself here?

I'm not seeing a conflict either. What I'm seeing is that as of RUE if you're using firearms or energy weapons of some kind you need a WP in said weapon to do a called shot. What I'm not seeing is anything saying you can't do called shots with any other kind of weapon, or that you need WPs to do called shots with those other weapons.

Valid point, it's mostly that since it's not covered at all, we're left guessing as to whether it's a free benefit, whether it takes an added attack like guns, whether it takes a higher number like the days of old, etc.

NO contradiction. If a energy weapon was a gun then the (note) would be not needed. This is the rule including something that is not part of a gun in the use of a gun for the intent of the discuses rule, it does not change the default use of gun. (not to mention that the second quote you have of me is me quoting the book so it is not my words but the text as it is in the book.)

**This seams a trivial personal attack with no merit to the debate, you seam to be attacking me for the choice of words in the rule book, presenting it as I said something outlandish and then claim a false contradiction.

[Blue_Lion]

I'm not seeing a conflict either. What I'm seeing is that as of RUE if you're using firearms or energy weapons of some kind you need a WP in said weapon to do a called shot. What I'm not seeing is anything saying you can't do called shots with any other kind of weapon, or that you need WPs to do called shots with those other weapons.

So then it should be simple to show where there are rules for called shots outside of using modern weapons and a WP.
Because as of RUE the new (and as far as I can tell, only) rules for Called Shots are spelled out in the modern weapons section.

Simply stateing that one can make a called shot because you used to be able to doesn't hold water. This is RUE not RMB.
In RMB, it is absolutely correct to state that no WP is necisary. But in RUE, they have made it abundantly clear that the WP is required...
as the section of rules where called shots are spelled out (modern weapons) it states you need a... wait for it modern weapon proficency. Ergo to use a called shot in another section you would need that section's W.P. as well. Or of course someone can cite an actual rule from RUE that says otherwise.

You do realize that know that the rules for how to do called shots have always been located in range combat starting with the first rifts book.

So your statement amounts to they left called shot rules in range combat, so all references out of that section are invalid.
Rifts RPG pg 40 has the called shot rules in combat>range combat: right after the rule for vollies burst and close range strike bonus for robots.

There is no rule that says other things can not do called shots in RUE this seams more you presenting a house rule or misunderstanding as something abudently clear.

It is abundantly clear that guns require a WP to do called shot. There is no statement that attacks that have no weapons need a skill. It can be argued the wording under the use of guns with no WP that gun skill is needed for all called shots even if no gun is used, but that seams a stretch beyond the text.


But hey I may be wrong please provide a quote that makes it clear you need a WP is needed for anything other than gun and it is not just a conclusion you jumped to.(your own words seam to indicate you are assuming a need that is not stated in the rules.)

[Blue_Lion]

You guys are missing the forest for the trees.

You mean those are not D-bees that just look like trees? Dang and here i thought I found a army of treents.

[Axelmania]

And no a energy weapon is not a gun, guns are physical projectile weapons.
A energy rifle is not a gun even though it uses similar skill.
(why the heck you questioning me about this it is the text in the book.)

Anybody who doe not have a WP in a particular weapon type Can pick up a gun (including energy weapons)

Didn't you just contradict yourself here?

I'm not seeing a conflict either. What I'm seeing is that as of RUE if you're using firearms or energy weapons of some kind you need a WP in said weapon to do a called shot. What I'm not seeing is anything saying you can't do called shots with any other kind of weapon, or that you need WPs to do called shots with those other weapons.

Valid point, it's mostly that since it's not covered at all, we're left guessing as to whether it's a free benefit, whether it takes an added attack like guns, whether it takes a higher number like the days of old, etc.

NO contradiction. If a energy weapon was a gun then the (note) would be not needed. This is the rule including something that is not part of a gun in the use of a gun for the intent of the discuses rule, it does not change the default use of gun. (not to mention that the second quote you have of me is me quoting the book so it is not my words but the text as it is in the book.)

**This seams a trivial personal attack with no merit to the debate, you seam to be attacking me for the choice of words in the rule book, presenting it as I said something outlandish and then claim a false contradiction.

I don't think it's a personal attack to try and make sense of how you say "a energy weapon is not a gun" followed by "gun (including energy weapons)".

I will make 4 statements of my beliefs. I would like to know which you agree or disagree with.

1. Not all energy weapons are guns.
2. Not all guns are energy weapons.
3. Some energy weapons are guns.
4. Some guns are energy weapons.

Now here are 4 things I do not believe. I would like to know if you also do not believe them.

1. All energy weapons are guns.
2. All guns are energy weapons.
3. No energy weapons are guns.
4. No guns are energy weapons.

You do realize that know that the rules for how to do called shots have always been located in range combat starting with the first rifts book.

I think the semantics there may have referred to guns though, as they do now, just not with requiring W.P. as they do now.

[Blue_Lion]

And no a energy weapon is not a gun, guns are physical projectile weapons.
A energy rifle is not a gun even though it uses similar skill.
(why the heck you questioning me about this it is the text in the book.)

Anybody who doe not have a WP in a particular weapon type Can pick up a gun (including energy weapons)

Didn't you just contradict yourself here?

I'm not seeing a conflict either. What I'm seeing is that as of RUE if you're using firearms or energy weapons of some kind you need a WP in said weapon to do a called shot. What I'm not seeing is anything saying you can't do called shots with any other kind of weapon, or that you need WPs to do called shots with those other weapons.

Valid point, it's mostly that since it's not covered at all, we're left guessing as to whether it's a free benefit, whether it takes an added attack like guns, whether it takes a higher number like the days of old, etc.

NO contradiction. If a energy weapon was a gun then the (note) would be not needed. This is the rule including something that is not part of a gun in the use of a gun for the intent of the discuses rule, it does not change the default use of gun. (not to mention that the second quote you have of me is me quoting the book so it is not my words but the text as it is in the book.)

**This seams a trivial personal attack with no merit to the debate, you seam to be attacking me for the choice of words in the rule book, presenting it as I said something outlandish and then claim a false contradiction.

I don't think it's a personal attack to try and make sense of how you say "a energy weapon is not a gun" followed by "gun (including energy weapons)".

I will make 4 statements of my beliefs. I would like to know which you agree or disagree with.

1. Not all energy weapons are guns.
2. Not all guns are energy weapons.
3. Some energy weapons are guns.
4. Some guns are energy weapons.

Now here are 4 things I do not believe. I would like to know if you also do not believe them.

1. All energy weapons are guns.
2. All guns are energy weapons.
3. No energy weapons are guns.
4. No guns are energy weapons.

You do realize that know that the rules for how to do called shots have always been located in range combat starting with the first rifts book.

I think the semantics there may have referred to guns though, as they do now, just not with requiring W.P. as they do now.

1,2,3,and 4.
and 1,and 2.

Note both sets 1 and 2 are just restating the same thing a different ways as are 3 and 4. Also as what you do not believe is just the negative of what you believe listing them was kind of a wast of time.

This was a pointless question because I already stated my stance.

[eliakon]

I would just like to point out that Palladium may or may not define "guns" as being a "weapon which fires a physical projectile"

Especially since they use the word "gun" interchangeably with all sorts of high-tech weapons regardless of the type.

Heck, all it takes is a single black swan example of an energy weapon being called a gun to demonstrate that guns are not projectile weapons. And on page 269 of RUE discussing the Wilks 447 Laser Rifle "A rifle version of the handgun that is a sleek..."

[Axelmania]

1,2,3,and 4.

Are you agreeing with my 4 stated beliefs or disagreeing? Wasn't clear what you meant by listing them without context.

and 1,and 2.

Are you saying you agree with 1 and 2 or disagree with 1 and 2 of the things I stated I do not believe?

Note both sets 1 and 2 are just restating the same thing a different ways as are 3 and 4. Also as what you do not believe is just the negative of what you believe listing them was kind of a wast of time.

I am aware that I stated the same thing in multiple ways. This was intentional redundancy in case you understood one but not the other.

This was a pointless question because I already stated my stance.

The point of this is that however you have attempted to convey your stance, I have not understood that conveyance, so I'm presenting possibilities in my own words to try and figure where your stance lies.

[Blue_Lion]

a energy weapon is not a gun, guns are physical projectile weapons. A energy rifle is not a gun even though it uses similar skill.

Looks like I stated it fairly clearly you even quoted it. What part of it do you not a understand?

[Axelmania]

I think I just realized where I got mixed up. The complete thought was "sources other than guns (including energy weapons)" and I appear to have overlooked the SOT preceding the word, the parenthesis was in reference to 'sources' not 'guns'. You did not contradict yourself.

In that case I would point to eliakon's reply above in regard to how Palladium uses the term gun to cover non-projectile weapons too.

[VR Dragon]

This is why the old rules were better. RUE Made weapons suck.

[eliakon]

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

I was rereading this thread and noticed the original post so thought I would bring something up.
Psiscape answers the question for us.
It says in black and white that psionic called shots have the same rules that apply as when using a modern weapon.
That makes it easy.
We simply go to the modern weapon section and read the rules for called shots and find out what is required and how they work.

No fuss, no muss, the canon is perfectly clear...just read the listed rules and follow them (or house rule them if you do not like the canon)

[shadrak]

Now that RUE made it so psychics no longer suffer a skill penalty for having psychic abilities, it hardly matters whether you require a WP or not...

The psychic still comes out ahead of where they were in RMB.

[Blue_Lion]

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

I was rereading this thread and noticed the original post so thought I would bring something up.
Psiscape answers the question for us.
It says in black and white that psionic called shots have the same rules that apply as when using a modern weapon.
That makes it easy.
We simply go to the modern weapon section and read the rules for called shots and find out what is required and how they work.

No fuss, no muss, the canon is perfectly clear...just read the listed rules and follow them (or house rule them if you do not like the canon)

The mechanics for a called shot do not require a weapon proficency.

The block on making called shots for no weapon proficency is found in rules for use of weapons without proficiency not in rules for called shot.

Basically there is nothing saying you require a WP to make a called shot with Psi powers. There is something saying if you are using a weapon without a WP you can not make a called shot.

(The book you are quoting was written before RUE changed the rules.)

[Blue_Lion]

Now that RUE made it so psychics no longer suffer a skill penalty for having psychic abilities, it hardly matters whether you require a WP or not...

The psychic still comes out ahead of where they were in RMB.

One slight error there was never a penalty to skills for being a pcc. You are making a judgement call that affects all PCCs based of the removal of a skill penalty to non PPCs that had a radom roll for psi.

[eliakon]

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

I was rereading this thread and noticed the original post so thought I would bring something up.
Psiscape answers the question for us.
It says in black and white that psionic called shots have the same rules that apply as when using a modern weapon.
That makes it easy.
We simply go to the modern weapon section and read the rules for called shots and find out what is required and how they work.

No fuss, no muss, the canon is perfectly clear...just read the listed rules and follow them (or house rule them if you do not like the canon)

The mechanics for a called shot do not require a weapon proficency.

RUE the rules for Modern Weapons (which Psiscape we are to use) explicitly DO say just that.

"...A character with a modern weapon proficiency can make Aimed and "Called Shots..."

"...A character with no gun proficiency rolls 1d20 with no bonuses to strike, can NOT make an Aimed Shot or a Called Shot..."
Seems pretty black and white there.
And since Psiscape explicitly states to use the rules for modern weapons... well then the rules for modern weapons are the rules that apply.

Now yes, the rules for "called shots" themselves on page 361 don't... but those are not, and I quote, the same rules apply as using a modern weapon... and as such have as much bearing on this as the rules for rolling stats.

The block on making called shots for no weapon proficency is found in rules for use of weapons without proficiency not in rules for called shot.

Yes, but those are not the rules for modern weapons are they. Which psiscape says to use. You can use a different set of rules if you wish as house rules... but the canon as per psiscape is that we use the modern weapon rules, not the rules for non-modern weapons but the rules for modern weapons.

Basically there is nothing saying you require a WP to make a called shot with Psi powers.

You mean other than the statement in psiscape saying that they are to use the modern weapon rules, which require WPs?

There is something saying if you are using a weapon without a WP you can not make a called shot.

Yep. And since Psiscape states that we are to use those rules specifically that means no WP no called shots.

(The book you are quoting was written before RUE changed the rules.)

Yes, and in RMB days the rules were different. But this is not the RMB days. The rules now are the rules as per RUE and not RMB. That is what "new rules" means When new rules are published they supplant the old rules. Thus if a new book comes out and makes a new rule that replaces an old rule the old rule is replaced...even in the old books where it appears if those books are used for other material. And in RUE the rules for modern weapons were changed. And as part of that change they now require a WP to make called and aimed shots. And as Psiscape refers specifically to the rules for modern weapons and not to simply the generic called shot rules...it uses the rules for modern weapons. And in RUE it that means that it uses the RUE rules, W.P.s and all, and not the RMB ones.

[Blue_Lion]

A psi power is not a weapon it is power.
So as I said there is nothing that says you need a WP to make called shots with powers.


You do relies that you are arguing to make it impossible by cannon for psi to do called shot with psi powers. Because you can not separate the rules for no weapon skills with weapons and the mechanics for called shots.

[eliakon]

A psi power is not a weapon it is power.
So as I said there is nothing that says you need a WP to make called shots with powers.

yes I am aware of your house rule. But the game book begs to differ by saying you have to use the rules for modern weapons.

You do relies that you are arguing to make it impossible by cannon for psi to do called shot with psi powers. Because you can not separate the rules for no weapon skills with weapons and the mechanics for called shots.

Yes I am your point? No seriously that isn't really at all up for debate. I am absolutely 100% outright stating that under RUE right now there is no canon legal way to make called shots with psi powers, I apologize if that has not been clear up until now. The fact that you used to be able to do so in RMB is not of any more relevance than the fact that under RMB rules you had to roll a 12 not an 8 to hit with a called shot.
There are in point of fact three and only three options in this area. One option is canon and two use house rules.

Option 1: Called Shots with Psionics are no longer legal in RUE. Under this option we assume that the decision was made to remove this for what ever reason with the new rules and that the old mentions of them are simply a relic of the RMB and of no more relevance than any other outdated rules material.

Option 2: House Rule #1 Called Shots require a new W.P. that is hitherto undescribed but would simply be an extrapolation of the fact that the Palladium System seems to be based on the idea that any weapon can have a WP and that they can be created at will to fit a situation

Option 3: House Rule #2 Ignore the statement about being treated the same as modern weapons and simply allow psionics to make called shots.

[guardiandashi]

A psi power is not a weapon it is power.
So as I said there is nothing that says you need a WP to make called shots with powers.

yes I am aware of your house rule. But the game book begs to differ by saying you have to use the rules for modern weapons.

You do relies that you are arguing to make it impossible by cannon for psi to do called shot with psi powers. Because you can not separate the rules for no weapon skills with weapons and the mechanics for called shots.

Yes I am your point? No seriously that isn't really at all up for debate. I am absolutely 100% outright stating that under RUE right now there is no canon legal way to make called shots with psi powers, I apologize if that has not been clear up until now. The fact that you used to be able to do so in RMB is not of any more relevance than the fact that under RMB rules you had to roll a 12 not an 8 to hit with a called shot.
There are in point of fact three and only three options in this area. One option is canon and two use house rules.

Option 1: Called Shots with Psionics are no longer legal in RUE. Under this option we assume that the decision was made to remove this for what ever reason with the new rules and that the old mentions of them are simply a relic of the RMB and of no more relevance than any other outdated rules material.

Option 2: House Rule #1 Called Shots require a new W.P. that is hitherto undescribed but would simply be an extrapolation of the fact that the Palladium System seems to be based on the idea that any weapon can have a WP and that they can be created at will to fit a situation

Option 3: House Rule #2 Ignore the statement about being treated the same as modern weapons and simply allow psionics to make called shots.

option 4 psychics can make called shots with aimed powers as per the modern weapons rules, because they are NOT using weapons they are using abilities so they are treated as having a WP that provides no actual bonuses (and doesn't actually exist) because of a bad copy and paste update that didn't consider all the ramifications of different ability rule sets that were linked to weapon combat rather than rewriting large portions of the weapons combat rules.

[glitterboy2098]

that is the same as option 3, just stated in a more convoluted and confusing fashion

[Blue_Lion]

A psi power is not a weapon it is power.
So as I said there is nothing that says you need a WP to make called shots with powers.

yes I am aware of your house rule. But the game book begs to differ by saying you have to use the rules for modern weapons.

You do relies that you are arguing to make it impossible by cannon for psi to do called shot with psi powers. Because you can not separate the rules for no weapon skills with weapons and the mechanics for called shots.

Yes I am your point? No seriously that isn't really at all up for debate. I am absolutely 100% outright stating that under RUE right now there is no canon legal way to make called shots with psi powers, I apologize if that has not been clear up until now. The fact that you used to be able to do so in RMB is not of any more relevance than the fact that under RMB rules you had to roll a 12 not an 8 to hit with a called shot.
There are in point of fact three and only three options in this area. One option is canon and two use house rules.

Option 1: Called Shots with Psionics are no longer legal in RUE. Under this option we assume that the decision was made to remove this for what ever reason with the new rules and that the old mentions of them are simply a relic of the RMB and of no more relevance than any other outdated rules material.

Option 2: House Rule #1 Called Shots require a new W.P. that is hitherto undescribed but would simply be an extrapolation of the fact that the Palladium System seems to be based on the idea that any weapon can have a WP and that they can be created at will to fit a situation

Option 3: House Rule #2 Ignore the statement about being treated the same as modern weapons and simply allow psionics to make called shots.

Weapons require a WP to do called shots. The mechanic does not, so it is really not a house rule. The mechanic of called shots never mentions a requirement of a WP. So applying a rule for use of a weapon without a skill to something that is not a weapon to me could be seen as a house rule.


So I do not see 3 as a house rule, but the way the rules are written we may disagree on that.

So lets look at the assumptions being made here that are not written in the book.

Option 1 (2 assumption) 1 that the rules for use of weapons applies to powers that are not weapons and 2 that rule in psiscape is invalid do to rule change.


Option 2 (2 assumption) 1 that the rule for use of weapons applies to powers tht have no WP and 2 there is a need for a WP skill for psi for the rule to be valid.

Option 3 (1 assumption) 1 that the rule for use of weapons without skills does not apply to powers that are not weapons.

[ShadowLogan]

World Book 12 (Psyscape) page 33, right column under Range

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

With RUE now requiring WP to make called shots (instead of allowing anybody to do them as long as they roll 12 or better) how do we deal with this? Use the old 12+ rules? Forbid psi from making called shots anymore? Created new WP skills?

Would one WP slot per power be reasonable? What gun would be the best match for bonuses?

With RUE in effect I would treat the psychic as having a WP requirement as not being in effect or the psychic power comes with a built-in WP skill (static though it might be). The end result is the same since RUE did not address the "range" term in the psychic section, WB12 isn't superseded in that aspect.

If I was to allow a skill slot for WP to be taken to improve accuracy, I'd probably use the old generic progression rate instead of trying to find the one that most matches for bonuses.

I am going to ADD-TO/ADJUST my earlier response.

I recently reviewed the text in a few psychic powers in RUE to see if they kept any "called shot" example uses from previous incarnations (RMB, PF2E). Hydrokinesis and Telekinesis both include example applications using the powers that constitute a called shot (between the powers targeting "head", "face", "crotch").

So either under RUE Psychic Powers are considered to have a unstated built-in WP to apply in this situation OR they have an unstated exemption from requiring WP Skill to make Called Shots.

[Blue_Lion]

that is the same as option 3, just stated in a more convoluted and confusing fashion

no that is accurately stating what is happening, instead of saying ignore the rules. The end result might be the same but one is a statement to ignore something while the other is explaining why it does not apply.

[Blue_Lion]

World Book 12 (Psyscape) page 33, right column under Range

Called Shot. Psionics that require the psychic to aim and shoot or to manipulate a psionic manifestation can make a "called shot." This means the character is aiming for a particular target, person or location. A successful roll to strike means a direct hit on the desired target. Same rules apply as when using a modern weapon.

With RUE now requiring WP to make called shots (instead of allowing anybody to do them as long as they roll 12 or better) how do we deal with this? Use the old 12+ rules? Forbid psi from making called shots anymore? Created new WP skills?

Would one WP slot per power be reasonable? What gun would be the best match for bonuses?

With RUE in effect I would treat the psychic as having a WP requirement as not being in effect or the psychic power comes with a built-in WP skill (static though it might be). The end result is the same since RUE did not address the "range" term in the psychic section, WB12 isn't superseded in that aspect.

If I was to allow a skill slot for WP to be taken to improve accuracy, I'd probably use the old generic progression rate instead of trying to find the one that most matches for bonuses.

I am going to ADD-TO/ADJUST my earlier response.

I recently reviewed the text in a few psychic powers in RUE to see if they kept any "called shot" example uses from previous incarnations (RMB, PF2E). Hydrokinesis and Telekinesis both include example applications using the powers that constitute a called shot (between the powers targeting "head", "face", "crotch").

So either under RUE Psychic Powers are considered to have a unstated built-in WP to apply in this situation OR they have an unstated exemption from requiring WP Skill to make Called Shots.

They are exempt to the rules for use of weapons without proficencies because they are not guns/weapons. So there is no reason to think the rules for use of a gun without a WP applies to something that is not a weapon let alone a gun.

The rule is-A charter with no gun proficiency rolls a d20 with no bonuses to strike, can not make an aimed or called shot and suffers ...

So the rule is only really addressing the use of weapons that are guns (including energy) by context. It specifically calls out gun proficiencies in the write up. I see nothing that makes this rule appear to cover anything other than the use of guns (including energy) in its write up. A literal interpterion would be if you have a gun proficiency (modern WP) you could then do called shot with a psi power because it just calls for a skill not a skill with a specific weapon.(but that ignores the context of the write up.)

**If the rule of use of guns with no proficiency applied to powers that are not weapons(guns) then no spell or psi power can have a bonus to strike.**

[Blue_Lion]

Perhaps I am missing something can some one quote the rule that says it takes a WP to make a called shot?

[eliakon]

<Redacted by order of the department of redundancy department redaction ordering department>