Whoops, too powerful

[Mack]

Here's a topic dedicated to all those book-legal combos that really shouldn't be legal. It was inspired by the following...
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I was leafing through Spirit West looking at some of the Native American fetishes, when both the Minor Damage (SDC, p85) and the Major Supernatural Damage (p89) fetishes caught my eye. The first doubles the SDC damage of a weapon, and establishes that the fetish works on items such as rifles and grenade launchers. The second converts an SDC weapon to MD, and again mentions a modern weapon (revolver).

And then I remembered this hidden gem: Merc Ops, p99 has the WI-SR15 15mm Sniper Rifle which is really a heavy duty assault rifle with a scope. A standard round hits for 1D8x10 SDC (that's not a burst but a single shot).

With a minor fetish...
- 1D8x20 SDC, single round
- 2 MD, three-round burst
- 1D4x2, ten-round burst

With a major fetish...
- 1D8x10 MD, single round
- 100 MD, three-round burst
- 1D4x100 MD, ten-round burst

And since I can't find anything that precludes it... BOTH a minor and major fetish...
- 1D8x20 MD, single round (average of 90 MD)
- 200 MD, three-round burst
- 1D4x200 MD, ten-round burst (average of 500 MD)
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And if we jump to the WI-MG15 "Viper" (Merc Ops, p100) with both fetishes...
- 1D8x20 MD, single round (average of 90 MD)
- 1D8x200 MD, ten-round burst (average of 900 MD)
- 2D8x200 MD, twenty-round burst (average of 1,800 MD)

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GM sanity check (or reasons to prevent this monstrosity)...
- A major fetish may or may not work on something like this rifle. A GM could rule that it's too high-tech for the Spirits to allow this combination since the major fetish text only refers to a revolver. However, the minor fetish appears to be expressly allowed.
- There's no text, either positive or negative, about combining fetishes in this way. A GM could rule that one works, but not both.



Now then, I'm not seriously recommending any of this. It's way beyond the author's intent. Just something to have a little fun with.

[The Beast]

Scarecrow with either the Fire Warlock or Burster OCC.

[taalismn]

I was leafing through Spirit West looking at some of the Native American fetishes, when both the Minor Damage (SDC, p85) and the Major Supernatural Damage (p89) fetishes caught my eye. The first doubles the SDC damage of a weapon, and establishes that the fetish works on items such as rifles and grenade launchers. The second converts an SDC weapon to MD, and again mentions a modern weapon (revolver).

And then I remembered this hidden gem: Merc Ops, p99 has the WI-SR15 15mm Sniper Rifle which is really a heavy duty assault rifle with a scope. A standard round hits for 1D8x10 SDC (that's not a burst but a single shot).

With a minor fetish...
- 1D4x2, ten-round burst

With a major fetish...
- 1D4x100 MD, ten-round burst

And since I can't find anything that precludes it... BOTH a minor and major fetish...
- 1D4x200 MD, ten-round burst (average of 500 MD)
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And if we jump to the WI-MG15 "Viper" (Merc Ops, p100) with both fetishes...
- 2D8x200 MD, twenty-round burst (average of 1,800 MD)

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GM sanity check (or reasons to prevent this monstrosity)...
- A major fetish may or may not work on something like this rifle. A GM could rule that it's too high-tech for the Spirits to allow this combination since the major fetish text only refers to a revolver. However, the minor fetish appears to be expressly allowed.
- There's no text, either positive or negative, about combining fetishes in this way. A GM could rule that one works, but not both.



Now then, I'm not seriously recommending any of this. It's way beyond the author's intent. Just something to have a little fun with.

Moral of the Story: Do NOT get on the bad side of the Native Americans.


They may not give a damn for the GM's sanity.

[Khanibal]

"Your prowess as a warrior who mixes traditional and modern weapons has both intrigued and angered Coyote. Your Viper explodes. Everything within 40' takes damage equivalent to 1/2 your remaining ammunition."

[Axelmania]

Page 85 says "It has no effect on magic spells, magic weapons or mega-damage weapons"

I think since 89's Supernatural Damage Fetish converts damage to MD, that could be considered as making it into a "mega-damage weapon" thus making the Minor fetish no longer able to empower it.

As for the bursts on Merc Ops 99-100, page 90 of Spirit West continues "It has no effect on mega-damage "tech" weapon" the "one MD" 3 round burst could not benefit.

Since the 10-round burst does say "(or 1D4x100 S.D.C.)" you have a valid point there, you can do a 1D4x100 MD attack. Still quite powerful.

Scarecrow with either the Fire Warlock or Burster OCC.

Not scared of the former. Just deplete their MDC to -25 (max PE is 24 so this is guaranteed death) using Call Lightning, then just hit them with a fire bolt to finish the job. Warlocks take 1/2 dmg from MD fire!

Bursters used to be similarly feasible but I can see that "Even the most intense mega-damage blaze will inflict no more than one tenth its normal damage" from RMB / Psyscape 49 was changed to "Even the most intense mega-damage blaze does no damage whatsoever" on RUE 140, so it seems like Bursters are the ultimate defense against fire and the Scarecrow Burster is truly unkillable in Palladium terms.

That said CBRp174's "only a fire can destroy a scarecrow" does nothing to protect against possession... so is there anything preventing Nxla from turning a Scarecrow Burster into a Xombie?

[13eowulf]

I love the WI-SR15. And really most of the WI line. Great thing for having on a Rifts PC if there is a chance you will spend some time in an SDC world.

Instead of the Fetishes, how about the Nightbane version of Enchant Weapon, or the lesser Charm Weapon?

[taalismn]

"Your prowess as a warrior who mixes traditional and modern weapons has both intrigued and angered Coyote. Your Viper explodes. Everything within 40' takes damage equivalent to 1/2 your remaining ammunition."

Ouch. Time to review the fine print on your god-contract.

[HarleeKnight]

No need to add both fetishes. As Axelmania said, the major fetish would probably cancel out the minor. I would just use explosive rounds and triple the damage.

[dreicunan]

Page 85 says "It has no effect on magic spells, magic weapons or mega-damage weapons"

I think since 89's Supernatural Damage Fetish converts damage to MD, that could be considered as making it into a "mega-damage weapon" thus making the Minor fetish no longer able to empower it.

As for the bursts on Merc Ops 99-100, page 90 of Spirit West continues "It has no effect on mega-damage "tech" weapon" the "one MD" 3 round burst could not benefit.

Since the 10-round burst does say "(or 1D4x100 S.D.C.)" you have a valid point there, you can do a 1D4x100 MD attack. Still quite powerful.

It doesn't take too much math to extrapolate the sdc damage for a three round burst. The WI-R12 has a 1d6x10 damage code that becomrs 3d4x10 for a 3 round burst, so the 3 round burst for the WI-SR15 can be extrapolated to do 4d4x10 sdc. That would make more sense than saying that a single round or ten rounds benefit but three rounds don't.

[Mack]

No need to add both fetishes. As Axelmania said, the major fetish would probably cancel out the minor. I would just use explosive rounds and triple the damage.

I like the explosive rounds approach. That avoids the issue of using two fetishes and increases the damage. That takes it up to 1D8x30 MD for a single round (or an average of 135 MD, better than a Boom Gun).

[taalismn]

No need to add both fetishes. As Axelmania said, the major fetish would probably cancel out the minor. I would just use explosive rounds and triple the damage.

I like the explosive rounds approach. That avoids the issue of using two fetishes and increases the damage. That takes it up to 1D8x30 MD for a single round (or an average of 135 MD, better than a Boom Gun).

Still ####ing scary and a very good reason not to annoy the aboriginals.

[HarleeKnight]

No need to add both fetishes. As Axelmania said, the major fetish would probably cancel out the minor. I would just use explosive rounds and triple the damage.

I like the explosive rounds approach. That avoids the issue of using two fetishes and increases the damage. That takes it up to 1D8x30 MD for a single round (or an average of 135 MD, better than a Boom Gun).

Still ####ing scary and a very good reason not to annoy the aboriginals.

It wouldn't work anyways. Traditionalists tend to stick with revolvers, lever-actions, and bolt actions, you know, Cowboy weapons. It would take a mighty lenient GM to allow the WI-SR15 as a Traditionalist weapon. Now, if you built a bolt action that used this round, something similar to the Barrett M82.
Keep in mind though, that the current U.S. Army Barrett M82 uses .50 round or 12.7mm, significantly smaller than the 15mm described. That is a very large round...
There is a Belgian Pinfire Revolver Rifle that uses 15mm rounds but the cartridge is very short, wouldn't be much use for such long ranges.

[Mack]

No need to add both fetishes. As Axelmania said, the major fetish would probably cancel out the minor. I would just use explosive rounds and triple the damage.

I like the explosive rounds approach. That avoids the issue of using two fetishes and increases the damage. That takes it up to 1D8x30 MD for a single round (or an average of 135 MD, better than a Boom Gun).

Still ####ing scary and a very good reason not to annoy the aboriginals.

It wouldn't work anyways. Traditionalists tend to stick with revolvers, lever-actions, and bolt actions, you know, Cowboy weapons. It would take a mighty lenient GM to allow the WI-SR15 as a Traditionalist weapon.

Yet we’re expressly told that a fetish will work on a rifle with grenade launcher. Just have to pick which one to attach the fetish to.

Hmm... just thought of another weapon I’ll have to check later today. If it pans out I’ll post it here.

[Khanibal]

It wouldn't work anyways. Traditionalists tend to stick with revolvers, lever-actions, and bolt actions, you know, Cowboy weapons. It would take a mighty lenient GM to allow the WI-SR15 as a Traditionalist weapon. Now, if you built a bolt action that used this round, something similar to the Barrett M82.
Keep in mind though, that the current U.S. Army Barrett M82 uses .50 round or 12.7mm, significantly smaller than the 15mm described. That is a very large round...
There is a Belgian Pinfire Revolver Rifle that uses 15mm rounds but the cartridge is very short, wouldn't be much use for such long ranges.

Tribal Warrior is a valid OCC for Renegades, and they can use the Viper.

[taalismn]

A trickster god might give 'em a pass long enough for them to use the shiny new newtech weapon against its creators...then, when the warriors get arrogantly used to the power, take it away from them, because its(a) amusing, and b) educational.

[HarleeKnight]

It wouldn't work anyways. Traditionalists tend to stick with revolvers, lever-actions, and bolt actions, you know, Cowboy weapons. It would take a mighty lenient GM to allow the WI-SR15 as a Traditionalist weapon. Now, if you built a bolt action that used this round, something similar to the Barrett M82.
Keep in mind though, that the current U.S. Army Barrett M82 uses .50 round or 12.7mm, significantly smaller than the 15mm described. That is a very large round...
There is a Belgian Pinfire Revolver Rifle that uses 15mm rounds but the cartridge is very short, wouldn't be much use for such long ranges.

Tribal Warrior is a valid OCC for Renegades, and they can use the Viper.

Yes... but Renegades don't get the fetishes. Only Traditionalists and Pure Ones can get any fetishes from their OCCs. The book does state under the Fetishes section that those who aren't Traditionalists or Pure Ones can use them too, so I wonder about the distinctions made as to who can use them and who can get them.

[Khanibal]

Yes... but Renegades don't get the fetishes. Only Traditionalists and Pure Ones can get any fetishes from their OCCs. The book does state under the Fetishes section that those who aren't Traditionalists or Pure Ones can use them too, so I wonder about the distinctions made as to who can use them and who can get them.

Spirit West p. 31 last line of the first paragraph states that renegades who follow the old ways (to their way of thinking) can use minor fetishes. Actually a Renegade with an approved non-traditional OCC can select a totem animal. It sounds like a GM call whether or not to allow them to use major fetishes IF they take the Tribal Warrior OCC.

[HarleeKnight]

Yes... but Renegades don't get the fetishes. Only Traditionalists and Pure Ones can get any fetishes from their OCCs. The book does state under the Fetishes section that those who aren't Traditionalists or Pure Ones can use them too, so I wonder about the distinctions made as to who can use them and who can get them.

Spirit West p. 31 last line of the first paragraph states that renegades who follow the old ways (to their way of thinking) can use minor fetishes. Actually a Renegade with an approved non-traditional OCC can select a totem animal. It sounds like a GM call whether or not to allow them to use major fetishes IF they take the Tribal Warrior OCC.

Yes... they can use them, but under "Personal Fetishes" for every OCC it states,
Note: Characters who are not devoted Traditionalists or Pure Ones do not receive any of these fetishes.
Meaning, they have to earn them, find them, inherit them, or steal them, no OCC freebies.

[Khanibal]

Yes... they can use them, but under "Personal Fetishes" for every OCC it states,
Note: Characters who are not devoted Traditionalists or Pure Ones do not receive any of these fetishes.
Meaning, they have to earn them, find them, inherit them, or steal them, no OCC freebies.

Find them on the bodies of braves killed by monsters. Find seized ones on the bodies of CS troopers the PCs tangle with. They shouldn't be too rare.

[Mack]

Guys, don’t take this topic too seriously. Even though I brought it up I would never suggest trying this combo in a game.

[taalismn]

Guys, don’t take this topic too seriously. Even though I brought it up I would never suggest trying this combo in a game.

Too late. You've started a fetish-hunt.

[Khanibal]

Still, with custom designed armor a Malvoren could operate 5 maybe six of the PH-400 Phase Guns. Five fire-linked PH-400s is 20D6 to an area 10' in radius or 20' wide. The Abolisher Robot is not that wide, the Juggernaught Hover Tank is a bit wider, but a shot through the center should do okay. Instant salvage.

[Mack]

Yea... The Native American spirits/gods would definitely object to linking a fetish to a phase weapon. But it’s a nifty idea!

[ShadowLogan]

And then I remembered this hidden gem: Merc Ops, p99 has the WI-SR15 15mm Sniper Rifle which is really a heavy duty assault rifle with a scope. A standard round hits for 1D8x10 SDC (that's not a burst but a single shot).

1d8x10 SDC I'll see your Merc Ops "gem" and go all the way back to the Rifts Main RPG (not RUE) for the the 90mm recoil-less rifle does 1d10x100 SDC (with MDC shorthand). Its single shot though, but at 1:1 for a major fetish that would be... 1d10x100 MD.

Here's a topic dedicated to all those book-legal combos that really shouldn't be legal. It was inspired by the following...

SA2 ATL-7 souped up by a Gizmoteer could be powered by a psychic for 1 I.S.P per shot, if the user isn't to worried about life of the weapon the Gizmoteer could also increase the damage by dice rolled for the ATL-7, that damage may not seem like a lot until you realize that ATL-7 die code has a multiplier on it (so you don't get #d#, you get #d#x#).

[Khanibal]

Yea... The Native American spirits/gods would definitely object to linking a fetish to a phase weapon. But it’s a nifty idea!

I didn't mean in addition to, I meant instead of. Besides Malvoren are relegated to their R.C.C., so no fetish for them, even if they'd been accepted by a tribe.

[Khanibal]

SA2 ATL-7 souped up by a Gizmoteer could be powered by a psychic for 1 I.S.P per shot, if the user isn't to worried about life of the weapon the Gizmoteer could also increase the damage by dice rolled for the ATL-7, that damage may not seem like a lot until you realize that ATL-7 die code has a multiplier on it (so you don't get #d#, you get #d#x#).

Light Mage from Rifter, with Intensify Light: Major. Laser weapon does x10 normal damage.

[taalismn]

SA2 ATL-7 souped up by a Gizmoteer could be powered by a psychic for 1 I.S.P per shot, if the user isn't to worried about life of the weapon the Gizmoteer could also increase the damage by dice rolled for the ATL-7, that damage may not seem like a lot until you realize that ATL-7 die code has a multiplier on it (so you don't get #d#, you get #d#x#).

Light Mage from Rifter, with Intensify Light: Major. Laser weapon does x10 normal damage.

Oh fraudin' -hell-. The guy in the speedo with the hard tan just got assigned to the big laser mount.

[Blue_Lion]

SA2 ATL-7 souped up by a Gizmoteer could be powered by a psychic for 1 I.S.P per shot, if the user isn't to worried about life of the weapon the Gizmoteer could also increase the damage by dice rolled for the ATL-7, that damage may not seem like a lot until you realize that ATL-7 die code has a multiplier on it (so you don't get #d#, you get #d#x#).

Light Mage from Rifter, with Intensify Light: Major. Laser weapon does x10 normal damage.

Vulkin laser canon 3d4x10 just became 3d4x10x10. Am I the only one scared by that.

[Axelmania]

There's also 2d4x100 trebuchets or something like that in library of bletherad. Good candidate for tattoo weapons too.

[RockJock]

What sort of firearms do you consider usable in your games for a Traditionalist? Just level action and revolvers? What about CFT guns, Big Bore revolvers, and things like Naruni revolvers, or their more mechanically simple guns??

[Khanibal]

What sort of firearms do you consider usable in your games for a Traditionalist? Just level action and revolvers? What about CFT guns, Big Bore revolvers, and things like Naruni revolvers, or their more mechanically simple guns??

Well, the book says pre-1901, but I don't think they meant the Puckle Gun (1718 machine gun). So I would say any weapon that requires a manual action to load another round into the chamber; revolver, lever-action, pump-action, bolt-action should be fine, but the flat NO energy weapons let's out the NE revolvers and CFT weapons. Big Bore weapons should be just inside the line, as are TW weapons.

[taalismn]

[

Light Mage from Rifter, with Intensify Light: Major. Laser weapon does x10 normal damage.

Vulkin laser canon 3d4x10 just became 3d4x10x10. Am I the only one scared by that.[/quote]

Brown pants moment, especially if I'd just seen it used on the guy next to me.

"Ralph, what do we say with regards to using that thing on ordinary people?"
"...how was I supposed to know he wasn't a hidden cyberhumanoid borg? Or a dragon! Or a demigod! Or..."
"Not quite what I was hoping for."

[Mack]

And if memory serves, there’s a man-portable Wilks Laser Canon in Merc Ops that also hits for 3D4x10.

(Unless that’s the Vulcan he’s referring to.)

[RockJock]

I always take the pre 1901 to be "mechanical" guns. For example an M-60 would be a no, but a MDC alloy copy of a 1876 Winchester, or even a BIg Bore revolver would work. I would even count things like pump cartridge pistols and pump style shotguns being doable. To me the ammunition doesn't matter to the Traditionalist so much.

[Zer0 Kay]

I always take the pre 1901 to be "mechanical" guns. For example an M-60 would be a no, but a MDC alloy copy of a 1876 Winchester, or even a BIg Bore revolver would work. I would even count things like pump cartridge pistols and pump style shotguns being doable. To me the ammunition doesn't matter to the Traditionalist so much.

Why? Machine guns have existed long before and many volley guns are far more complicated than the m60 or m249.

[RockJock]

Because I didn't want to see hand cranked Gatling Guns on the backs of rhino buffalo in my games. I'm more ok with a Winchester 1897 pump built to MDC standards, and using Triax pump rounds then a Gatling of even Maxim gun counting for this.

This is one reason why I don't like the "pre 1901" label. I've played with groups that have ruled anything physically made before 1901 is ok, other that go with old designs with new materials being fine, or just anything "simple", even if newly build and designed like an updated lever action, revolver, basic pump, or bolt action, but nothing automatic.

[The Beast]

What sort of firearms do you consider usable in your games for a Traditionalist? Just level action and revolvers? What about CFT guns, Big Bore revolvers, and things like Naruni revolvers, or their more mechanically simple guns??

Well, the book says pre-1901, but I don't think they meant the Puckle Gun (1718 machine gun). So I would say any weapon that requires a manual action to load another round into the chamber; revolver, lever-action, pump-action, bolt-action should be fine, but the flat NO energy weapons let's out the NE revolvers and CFT weapons. Big Bore weapons should be just inside the line, as are TW weapons.

Well according to the Wikipedia page the puckle gun isn't a machine gun in the way people today would use the term. However the Maxim gun was built in 1883 so if the book says "pre-1901" then that machine gun is within the limitation.

[Zer0 Kay]

What sort of firearms do you consider usable in your games for a Traditionalist? Just level action and revolvers? What about CFT guns, Big Bore revolvers, and things like Naruni revolvers, or their more mechanically simple guns??

Well, the book says pre-1901, but I don't think they meant the Puckle Gun (1718 machine gun). So I would say any weapon that requires a manual action to load another round into the chamber; revolver, lever-action, pump-action, bolt-action should be fine, but the flat NO energy weapons let's out the NE revolvers and CFT weapons. Big Bore weapons should be just inside the line, as are TW weapons.

So not even double action pistols? (Colt 1877)

[Khanibal]

Well, the book says pre-1901, but I don't think they meant the Puckle Gun (1718 machine gun). So I would say any weapon that requires a manual action to load another round into the chamber; revolver, lever-action, pump-action, bolt-action should be fine, but the flat NO energy weapons let's out the NE revolvers and CFT weapons. Big Bore weapons should be just inside the line, as are TW weapons.

So not even double action pistols? (Colt 1877)

Is that not a revolver?

[Zer0 Kay]

Well, the book says pre-1901, but I don't think they meant the Puckle Gun (1718 machine gun). So I would say any weapon that requires a manual action to load another round into the chamber; revolver, lever-action, pump-action, bolt-action should be fine, but the flat NO energy weapons let's out the NE revolvers and CFT weapons. Big Bore weapons should be just inside the line, as are TW weapons.

So not even double action pistols? (Colt 1877)

Is that not a revolver?

Why yes it is but your saying manual action a double action revolver can actuate the hammer by pulling the trigger rather than requiring the hammer to be manually pulled back. I'd argue it's actuation is more complicated than a either a recoil or blowback actuated system.

That being said lasers have neither enough mass to produce enough recoil to actuate a recoil system nor enough expanding gas to actuate a blowback system... Unless a complicated system redirects a portion of the beam and focuses it into an air chamber and turn it into plasma, like laser propulsion.
Plasma again not enough mass. If the a gas is turned into plasma inside the weapon or better a solid turned into a plasma it may be able to actuate a blowback but if the round contains plasma that is then launched then there isn't any expansion... the other issue is that blowback systems require a solid mass in front of the expanding gas in order to allow some gas to be diverted down a gas tube to actuate the receiver. Most plasma don't propel a solid object. Only a system like a Gatling (crank), minigun (battery powered but still basically a crank) or a chaingun (which is still basically a crank system driven by a motor like a minigun but uses a chain instead of gears) would really be able to work on energy rounds.

[13eowulf]

Because I didn't want to see hand cranked Gatling Guns on the backs of rhino buffalo in my games. I'm more ok with a Winchester 1897 pump built to MDC standards, and using Triax pump rounds then a Gatling of even Maxim gun counting for this.

This is one reason why I don't like the "pre 1901" label. I've played with groups that have ruled anything physically made before 1901 is ok, other that go with old designs with new materials being fine, or just anything "simple", even if newly build and designed like an updated lever action, revolver, basic pump, or bolt action, but nothing automatic.

What is wrong with hand cranked Gatling Guns? I think they would be kind of fun.
A Rahu-Man walking onto the battlefield as a solo crew for such a weapon would be fantastic.

[Khanibal]

Well, the book says pre-1901, but I don't think they meant the Puckle Gun (1718 machine gun). So I would say any weapon that requires a manual action to load another round into the chamber; revolver, lever-action, pump-action, bolt-action should be fine, but the flat NO energy weapons let's out the NE revolvers and CFT weapons. Big Bore weapons should be just inside the line, as are TW weapons.

So not even double action pistols? (Colt 1877)

Is that not a revolver?

Why yes it is but your saying manual action a double action revolver can actuate the hammer by pulling the trigger rather than requiring the hammer to be manually pulled back. I'd argue it's actuation is more complicated than a either a recoil or blowback actuated system.

That being said lasers have neither enough mass to produce enough recoil to actuate a recoil system nor enough expanding gas to actuate a blowback system... Unless a complicated system redirects a portion of the beam and focuses it into an air chamber and turn it into plasma, like laser propulsion.
Plasma again not enough mass. If the a gas is turned into plasma inside the weapon or better a solid turned into a plasma it may be able to actuate a blowback but if the round contains plasma that is then launched then there isn't any expansion... the other issue is that blowback systems require a solid mass in front of the expanding gas in order to allow some gas to be diverted down a gas tube to actuate the receiver. Most plasma don't propel a solid object. Only a system like a Gatling (crank), minigun (battery powered but still basically a crank) or a chaingun (which is still basically a crank system driven by a motor like a minigun but uses a chain instead of gears) would really be able to work on energy rounds.

I'm confused, are we arguing? I don't feel like we're arguing.
I would allow a double action revolver because it's still man-power turning the cylinder and drawing back the hammer. In truth the double action revolvers were a little slower than the single action, as properly operating the single action requires both hands. You can see speed shooters demonstrate by searching youtube for SASS competitions.