Pilot: Robot/Power Armon Elite by type

[SpiritInterface]

Outside of the Silver Hawk, and Giltterboy are there any other types of Power Armor that has their own version of R/PA Elite adds?

[ShadowLogan]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. All R/PAC: Elite skills are supposed to be by unit/unit family. So all Glitterboys are covered by RC:E (Glitterboy), and all SAMAS are covered by RC:E (Samas), though they might use a generic table found in RMB/RUE or the specific unit entry might include its own RC:E listing.

I'd review page 319 of Rifts Ultimate Edition for the skill description.

[Khanibal]

The Kreeghor suits, one only fits Kreeghor, and the other, weaker one, only fits client races.

[slade2501]

I have always judged Elite power armor training as per individual suit, as even close models of cars can handle differently, have off-set controls, etc. But then again I always ruled also that spending some time training on a suit will get the character familiarity with that suit allowing for usage of Elite bonuses (asuming they already possess 'piloting basic'). Only something radically different or alien would take a real skill slot or serious training time (like switching to a Robotech mecha or something else crazy alien to rifts earth). If the character has help from a pilot who is trained on that particular unit, they can cut the time to a week of solid work.

Its like airplane pilots for small craft. They have similar controls but each craft is built by a different manufacturer, handles differently in certain types of wind or rain, has longer or shorter glide paths for landing and takeoff, shifted control layouts, etc. A trained pilot can still fly it but needs to know all the tricks, the inns and outs that make all the difference. A solid week of training with a rated pilot can fix that.

[Khanibal]

I have always judged Elite power armor training as per individual suit, as even close models of cars can handle differently, have off-set controls, etc. But then again I always ruled also that spending some time training on a suit will get the character familiarity with that suit allowing for usage of Elite bonuses (asuming they already possess 'piloting basic'). Only something radically different or alien would take a real skill slot or serious training time (like switching to a Robotech mecha or something else crazy alien to rifts earth). If the character has help from a pilot who is trained on that particular unit, they can cut the time to a week of solid work.

Its like airplane pilots for small craft. They have similar controls but each craft is built by a different manufacturer, handles differently in certain types of wind or rain, has longer or shorter glide paths for landing and takeoff, shifted control layouts, etc. A trained pilot can still fly it but needs to know all the tricks, the inns and outs that make all the difference. A solid week of training with a rated pilot can fix that.

Like knowing where Ford, Dodge, and Chevy put the headlight switch or the 4-way (hazard) light switch. Doesn't impede basic operation, but can present problems, until you drive it for a while.

[guardiandashi]

I have always judged Elite power armor training as per individual suit, as even close models of cars can handle differently, have off-set controls, etc. But then again I always ruled also that spending some time training on a suit will get the character familiarity with that suit allowing for usage of Elite bonuses (asuming they already possess 'piloting basic'). Only something radically different or alien would take a real skill slot or serious training time (like switching to a Robotech mecha or something else crazy alien to rifts earth). If the character has help from a pilot who is trained on that particular unit, they can cut the time to a week of solid work.

Its like airplane pilots for small craft. They have similar controls but each craft is built by a different manufacturer, handles differently in certain types of wind or rain, has longer or shorter glide paths for landing and takeoff, shifted control layouts, etc. A trained pilot can still fly it but needs to know all the tricks, the inns and outs that make all the difference. A solid week of training with a rated pilot can fix that.

Like knowing where Ford, Dodge, and Chevy put the headlight switch or the 4-way (hazard) light switch. Doesn't impede basic operation, but can present problems, until you drive it for a while.

even the same manufacturer can have significant details being different.
I currently have 2 ford cars a 200 Taurus and a 98 escort
on the escort, its a manual shift on the floor, with the headlight controls as a rotating control on the turn signal switch and the washer/wiper controls being on another little stick on the other side of the steering wheel with the gas tank fill being on the drivers side of the vehicle.
on the Taurus, its an automatic, shift on the column, with the3 headlight controls on the dash, cruse controls on the steering wheel (hub) wiper controls on the turn signal lever, and the gas fill on the passenger side of the vehicle...

[Khanibal]

and the gas fill on the passenger side of the vehicle...

SACRILEGE!

[Blue_Lion]

and the gas fill on the passenger side of the vehicle...

SACRILEGE!

Actually having vehicles with fuel ports on different sides is a tactical choice to help reduce lines at gas pumps. If to many people have cars with ports on the driver side that would tend to increase the lines for those with such cars.

[Khanibal]

Actually having vehicles with fuel ports on different sides is a tactical choice to help reduce lines at gas pumps. If to many people have cars with ports on the driver side that would tend to increase the lines for those with such cars.

I don't buy that one. If everyone had the port on the same side, you can just come at the pump from the other side. The best explanation I heard was that with the port on the passenger side, you're not risking death when you run out of gas and have to pour a can into the tank.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Actually having vehicles with fuel ports on different sides is a tactical choice to help reduce lines at gas pumps. If to many people have cars with ports on the driver side that would tend to increase the lines for those with such cars.

I don't buy that one. If everyone had the port on the same side, you can just come at the pump from the other side. The best explanation I heard was that with the port on the passenger side, you're not risking death when you run out of gas and have to pour a can into the tank.

They dont even think it that far through. I have a cousin by marriage who is a senior engineer at Ford down in Detroit/Dearborn. The fuel port goes.... literally wherever it fits best to make the parts required to be cheapest. (I sent him a text and asked after i read this, just to get some insight).

[Mlp7029]

Outside of the Silver Hawk, and Giltterboy are there any other types of Power Armor that has their own version of R/PA Elite adds?

Many power armor types have additional bonuses that add to a generic elite training in RUE. Here is an example from the Sidewinder SAMAS from the New West book.

...bonus capabilities as the standard, old-style "Death's Head" SAMAS, plus +1 on initiative, +1 to parry and +2 to dodge in addition to those normally available to the SAMAS. Power Armor Combat Training: Basic and Elite applies to the Sidewinder and Wild Weasel; see Rifts® RPG, page 45.

According to Coalition War Campaign all power armor in that book has

Special Bonuses: +2 on initiative and +1 to strike from combat computer and targeting systems.

. The old style SAMAS has

..gets a bonus of +1 to strike and +1 to dodge in addition to the power armor target bonus and Basic or Elite Power Armor Combat Training bonuses.

. So far the best one for bonuses I have found is the Kittani Serpentine PA with

Two additional attacks per melee (one from the tail, one from mobility), + 2 on initiative, +2 to strike and parry, + 3 automatic dodge (works just like a parry; does not use up a melee action, it is so quick) , +2 normal dodge, and +2 to roll with impact. All bonuses are in addition to hand to hand skill and attribute bonuses

plus

Sensor Bonuses: +2 to strike is applicable to long-range weapons

[glitterboy2098]

actually, i found it interesting that the Black Talon Advanced Training program in heroes of Humanity treats even Robot Combat: Basic as being model specific (it tells you you receive basic in two models of choice as part of your extra stuff from the AT), despite the fact that RUE has Robot Combat Basic as a generic that applies to all power armor, with only Elite being model line specific.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

actually, i found it interesting that the Black Talon Advanced Training program in heroes of Humanity treats even Robot Combat: Basic as being model specific (it tells you you receive basic in two models of choice as part of your extra stuff from the AT), despite the fact that RUE has Robot Combat Basic as a generic that applies to all power armor, with only Elite being model line specific.

And Elite automatically gives you Basic in RUE, as well. (And RMB IIRC).

[Khanibal]

actually, i found it interesting that the Black Talon Advanced Training program in heroes of Humanity treats even Robot Combat: Basic as being model specific (it tells you you receive basic in two models of choice as part of your extra stuff from the AT), despite the fact that RUE has Robot Combat Basic as a generic that applies to all power armor, with only Elite being model line specific.

Gee Whiz Wilikers!

I missed that before now. Maybe it should be a rule over at PB that you have to know the game before you write material for it.

[glitterboy2098]

the problem there is how would you prove it?
i mean heck, maybe i've been misreading the Robot Combat Basic description, and HOH is the correct approach?

[The Beast]

the problem there is how would you prove it?
i mean heck, maybe i've been misreading the Robot Combat Basic description, and HOH is the correct approach?

No, HoH is wrong. Basic is the general-purpose skill and Elite is model specific.

[glitterboy2098]

for the sake of completeness, could you provide reasoning and book cites to back that stance up? it'll help sort this whole mess out. (i actually agree with you, i'm just curious if the commonly held stance can be backed up, or if it is just the general consensus based on otherwise vague materials.)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

for the sake of completeness, could you provide reasoning and book cites to back that stance up? it'll help sort this whole mess out. (i actually agree with you, i'm just curious if the commonly held stance can be backed up, or if it is just the general consensus based on otherwise vague materials.)

RUE Page 351, under Robot (and Power Armor) Combat Basic, about halfway through, "the individual is able to operate all types of robots and power armor on a basic level".

The actual skill description on page 319 says basically the same thing, as well.

And Elite, on page 319 says:

Elite training automatically gives the pilot a basic understanding and the ability to pilot ALL standard types of robot vehicles and power armor at the "basic" level, plus one "elite" class of power armor or robot"

... which makes Robot/PA Combat: Basic a pointless skill to take if you have Elite.

[Blue_Lion]

actually, i found it interesting that the Black Talon Advanced Training program in heroes of Humanity treats even Robot Combat: Basic as being model specific (it tells you you receive basic in two models of choice as part of your extra stuff from the AT), despite the fact that RUE has Robot Combat Basic as a generic that applies to all power armor, with only Elite being model line specific.

Gee Whiz Wilikers!

I missed that before now. Maybe it should be a rule over at PB that you have to know the game before you write material for it.

Then nothing would ever get written.

[ShadowLogan]

actually, i found it interesting that the Black Talon Advanced Training program in heroes of Humanity treats even Robot Combat: Basic as being model specific (it tells you you receive basic in two models of choice as part of your extra stuff from the AT), despite the fact that RUE has Robot Combat Basic as a generic that applies to all power armor, with only Elite being model line specific.

And Elite automatically gives you Basic in RUE, as well. (And RMB IIRC).

In terms of Rifts HOH (which I don't have) it is NOT the correct approach as the text description of the skill in either Rifts Main Book or Ultimate Edition is pretty clear on how they work (basic is catchall, elite is specific)

It does however seem like the author is confusing Robotech's Mecha Combat: Elite/Basic system for Rifts Robot Combat: Elite/Basic system. And I do not mean the 2nd Edition Robotech (where only elite is available IINM), but the older 1st Edition where you DID select Basic in specific mecha.

Gee Whiz Wilikers!

I missed that before now. Maybe it should be a rule over at PB that you have to know the game before you write material for it.

Or you know have an editor to correct such mistakes.

[Khanibal]

Gee Whiz Wilikers!

I missed that before now. Maybe it should be a rule over at PB that you have to know the game before you write material for it.

Or you know have an editor to correct such mistakes.

Maybe HAVE a continuity department. At least one guy. Pay him minimum + product + all the Faygo he can gag down.

[Blue_Lion]

the problem there is how would you prove it?
i mean heck, maybe i've been misreading the Robot Combat Basic description, and HOH is the correct approach?

No, HoH is wrong. Basic is the general-purpose skill and Elite is model specific.

Well giving the living rule approach of pb the later book is not wrong but changes the rules. So unless pb released errata the skill was changed.

[The Beast]

the problem there is how would you prove it?
i mean heck, maybe i've been misreading the Robot Combat Basic description, and HOH is the correct approach?

No, HoH is wrong. Basic is the general-purpose skill and Elite is model specific.

Well giving the living rule approach of pb the later book is not wrong but changes the rules. So unless pb released errata the skill was changed.

Uh, no guy. HoH is wrong.

EDIT: To further elaborate, look at the any OCC that starts with Robot Combat: Elite. Depending on the one you're looking at they either start with it in a specific unit, or they get to pick it in one or two units. Using that skill correctly means that they also get the Basic form for all mech units. If you use it how the author of Heroes of Humanity interprets the two skills, there would be no need to ever pick RCB, because if that skill was also unit specific you're essentially wasting a skill slot that would have been better served by picking the RCE skill for whichever mecha unit you picked, and getting better combat bonuses. Furthermore, requiring them to have RCB be unit specific would severely reduce the amount of available skills to them, because they wouldn't always have access to the mecha unit they start off with for whatever reason. It could be getting repaired, destroyed, or not capable of performing the mission required of it for starters (I'm sure others could fill in what I missed). Regardless of why, those players would then have to spend their skills for the Basic form for a secondary suit, and then hope that that suit is what's available (which then again brings up the whole "why not just take the Elite version for better bonuses?" thing again).

[Blue_Lion]

the problem there is how would you prove it?
i mean heck, maybe i've been misreading the Robot Combat Basic description, and HOH is the correct approach?

No, HoH is wrong. Basic is the general-purpose skill and Elite is model specific.

Well giving the living rule approach of pb the later book is not wrong but changes the rules. So unless pb released errata the skill was changed.

Uh, no guy. HoH is wrong.

Why because you think the rules are written in stone. PB has a demonstrated trend of changing rules in later books without doing a change in edition. A good example is the back and forth on being able to dodge ranged attacks. The original rifts book said one thing then it got changed in conversion book 1.

So unless PB states that the text in HoH is wrong it is a change in the rules.(When two books conflict last one written is currant canon.)

[Sir Dellis]

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the understanding that in order to select Elite Pilot RPA that you have to select Basic first. It seems logical to me that if you follow the military school of thought a soldier goes through Basic Training to learn the basics of soldiering (speaking from experience here as I was in the US Army from 1990-1994) and then to MOS school.

Personally, I went to Basic at Ft. Sill, OK and then AIT (mos school) at Ft. Gordon, GA. Applying this to Rifts time, any OCC that pilots power armor would go through basic training to learn the non pilot OCC skills listed in RUE and then MOS school to learn to pilot power armor/robots (Basic robot combat) and once they completed that they would be allowed to select the Elite combat where they pick for example the Samson, Red Hawk, etc

Kind of on topic, I have a question on the NG power armors listed in NG2. In RUE, it lists examples of types, ie CS power armor with three digits are one type (PA-100, PA-200, etc). Is there a list (homemade or otherwise) of the NG power armors that fit into a type?

For example, the NG-X30 Aurora Blazer, NG-X44 Blue Boy, and other X 2 digits being one type. X 3 digits being another type, etc, etc...

[The Beast]

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the understanding that in order to select Elite Pilot RPA that you have to select Basic first. It seems logical to me that if you follow the military school of thought a soldier goes through Basic Training to learn the basics of soldiering (speaking from experience here as I was in the US Army from 1990-1994) and then to MOS school...

While that makes some sense, the RCE skill has no requirements listed in the skill description. Plus the skill says it gives those that take it the RCB skill for all other units so technically speaking one could say with military OCC characters that's how they learned their OCCs.

[Sir Dellis]

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the understanding that in order to select Elite Pilot RPA that you have to select Basic first. It seems logical to me that if you follow the military school of thought a soldier goes through Basic Training to learn the basics of soldiering (speaking from experience here as I was in the US Army from 1990-1994) and then to MOS school...

While that makes some sense, the RCE skill has no requirements listed in the skill description. Plus the skill says it gives those that take it the RCB skill for all other units so technically speaking one could say with military OCC characters that's how they learned their OCCs.

Okay, I just read the RCE skill again and totally see what you mean about the no requirement listed...I've played Palladium games for more years then I would like to admit but I am still fairly new to Rifts and certain intricacies of the game

[The Beast]

the problem there is how would you prove it?
i mean heck, maybe i've been misreading the Robot Combat Basic description, and HOH is the correct approach?

No, HoH is wrong. Basic is the general-purpose skill and Elite is model specific.

Well giving the living rule approach of pb the later book is not wrong but changes the rules. So unless pb released errata the skill was changed.

Uh, no guy. HoH is wrong.

Why because you think the rules are written in stone. PB has a demonstrated trend of changing rules in later books without doing a change in edition. A good example is the back and forth on being able to dodge ranged attacks. The original rifts book said one thing then it got changed in conversion book 1.

So unless PB states that the text in HoH is wrong it is a change in the rules.(When two books conflict last one written is currant canon.)

A couple things here. First, if it is a change in the skill then it needs to be addressed as such, because it's way too big of a change from what is clearly written in every version of those two skills, and would radically alter how everyone builds their characters that relies on those two skills (ie: GB pilots, Fly boys, ect).

Second, I don't recall what you're talking about in regards to the RMB and CB1 on the subject of dodging ranged attacks. However I'm willing to bet that it was listed in either a Q&A or rule section of that book, and not in a race's description (or in the case of HoH, an OCC's description).

[The Beast]

Also with the errata thing when was the last time Palladium ever updated theirs, or released one for something other than a main book? Even then their erratas are incomplete. For example I know that the HU2 book has had seven printings, but it still leaves out the Magic Pigeon spell from the spell descriptions while at the same time listing it in the alphabetical listing. Yet at the same time the errata from the first printing did make its way into at least the sixth printing (don't know if it's in any earlier printings too).

[RockJock]

The idea that Basic working on basically EVERY PA never made sense to me to begin with. Everything in a line(all SAMAS), or from a manufacturer (all NG, or all Kitani) makes more sense to me then a GB pilot being competent in everything from a Super Sam to a Avenger to a Manling.

As for the rule, I don't think the point of HOH was to change the whole game. Maybe it was meant to be part of the "special" training, sort of a one off. I don't know, for now I just ignore it.