Zen combat and vehicles

[oskoolgamer]

The cyberknight's cloud sensors ability has started several discussions/arguments. Our group has come to an agreement that it covers any technology assisted targeting. So iron sights no, rifle scope yes.. right or wrong, it works for our group. The part we are unable to come to an agreement on is vehicles.
if the CK is in power armor does he still cloud sensors?
What about shooting at his hover vehicle or other vehicle he is driving?
If the CK is flying a fighter/aircraft etc. does it apply?
What about if he is only a passenger in the vehicle?

my players have arguments on both sides, some more valid than others. my group is split enough on the subject that I hesitate to make a ruling.

Thoughts/opinions/arguments pro/con

Thanks all

[slade2501]

I would say that the Zen combat is usable when the knight is on his own two feet and can see his opponent. this would not work inside power armor or from within a vehicle to the outside. the knight must be able to come physically to grips with his enemy to slip into Zen mode. everything else puts a layer of separation between the knight and his foe. the point of the power is to show that a knight in mastery of his own self can extend that mastery over an opponent using artificial aids and constructs to improve his combat ability (its the kung-fu vs cannon argument from Kung-fu Panda 2). yes, cannon are powerful, but its only force, and force can be channeled or redirected, or turned against its user.

for example, if a cyber knight takes on a power armor, then first, the PA pilot looses all bonuses gained from the PA weapons systems. Second, the PA pilot takes penalties for dodge and initiative. third, the PA pilot looses another 2 attacks due to compensating for the knights abilities and moves (which pretty much negates the pilot's combat training).
That's some pretty hefty penalties for tech users.

[dreicunan]

The power says nothing about the knight loosing the ability due to wearing any kind of armor, power otherwise. RAW, that one is a no-brainer; it still applies. I'd also have it apply when the knight is piloting something like a hoverbike or riding a horse (natural or robot) or other mount.

To stop things like a single-cyberknight making entire aircraft carriers untargetable, I'd probably just rule that it applies to anything he is in (passenegr or pilot) so long as the whole vehicle is within a 12 ft radius of the cyberknight when he is in the center of it. I would then not bother with him actually needing to be in the center the whole time, just use it as a guideline for when it would take effect.

[Blue_Lion]

I would rule it works when the knight himself is the target of an attack.(unless it protects others in a X radius.)
If you attack a vehicle you are attacking the vehicle not the pilot or passenger.
A hover bike you cold target the pilot and not the bike.

PA would be a tougher call, as it is armor and you target the person in the armor not the armor and the armor takes the hit.
But I see PA outside the spirit of how the knight is suppose to fight. (I might even use the M word.)
So I would rule that the technology of the armor interferes with the powers and it does not work in any armor with any affect on PS. (so PA or exoskeletons would not work for.)

[The Beast]

Well seeing how magic psychic powers are typically blocked from affecting those inside robots and vehicles I say that the CK's powers wouldn't kick in. As for power armor, since there are some suits that are listed as blocking psychic powers (ie: SAMAS and Glitter Boy in SB1) it seems that it's going to depend on the PA suit. The problem then becomes trying to determine what was the criteria for making the operators of those suits immune to psychic attacks.

[oskoolgamer]

I would rule it works when the knight himself is the target of an attack.(unless it protects others in a X radius.)
If you attack a vehicle you are attacking the vehicle not the pilot or passenger.
A hover bike you cold target the pilot and not the bike.

PA would be a tougher call, as it is armor and you target the person in the armor not the armor and the armor takes the hit.
But I see PA outside the spirit of how the knight is suppose to fight. (I might even use the M word.)
So I would rule that the technology of the armor interferes with the powers and it does not work in any armor with any affect on PS. (so PA or exoskeletons would not work for.)

This is a thought for a cyberknight to keep up with a cosmoknight in a stupid level overpowered campaign. Therefore the "m" word is implied and built in.

[Khanibal]

Would it work if the Cyber-Knight was piloting the Psionic Power Armor from P-World?

[dreicunan]

Would it work if the Cyber-Knight was piloting the Psionic Power Armor from P-World?

Yes.

[eliakon]

My thoughts on the issue.

The power seems to be at least partially psionic in nature.
Also, we are informed that wearing Power Armor does not interfere with psionic powers.
As such I would say that if the knight is wearing Power Armor, the ability applies.
The other reason is it avoids the slippery slope of "well I will not attack the knight, I am attacking his armor/rifle/shirt what ever.
In my opinion that is ruleslawyering of the highest order and since it would make the classes main power utterly useless it is a shenanigan that should be stopped.

Vehicles. If the vehicle is something like a motorcycle or jet pack or the like, where it is more or less effectively a single person's equipment... then the same thing applies. If your a passenger, or driving something with passengers or the like... then your out of luck.

A note related to the "I'm not really attacking them" thing. I would have the power apply if the intent is to attack the knight. Thus shooting an AoE missile at the rock next to the knight is not going to work... the power is a very potent one and there is a reason that they are hemmed in with in game limitations like a code of honor and the like... because they are a very powerful class. It makes a mockery of the class if the power doesn't actually provide any protection and people can use their tech freely at will just by pretending to not fight the knight and 'accidentally' killing them.

[taalismn]

Something like a jetcycle? No. The CK may be exposed, but I don't see his psionic power being able to mask the heat exhaust blasting out behind from the jet engine he's straddling. A heatseeking missile with a proximity fuse doing a tail chase would get him up the tail pipe.
Hovercycle might be manageable....but I'd rule just barely, Overall less thrust, less heat, smaller size, less area to cover up a targetable signature.

[eliakon]

Something like a jetcycle? No. The CK may be exposed, but I don't see his psionic power being able to mask the heat exhaust blasting out behind from the jet engine he's straddling. A heatseeking missile with a proximity fuse doing a tail chase would get him up the tail pipe.
Hovercycle might be manageable....but I'd rule just barely, Overall less thrust, less heat, smaller size, less area to cover up a targetable signature.

Remember he isn't "masking" anything.
He is scrambling the other guys systems.
That missile for example would have its thermal trackers flickering, the proximity radar is fuzzy, and the computer running everything is running into a system bug.
A person who is just simply observing the situation, with no animus to the CK at all would have no trouble detecting the jettrail, just like the CKs allies can track him properly for IFF.

It's just that tech that is hostile to the CK that suddenly becomes buggier than cockroach convention.