Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Ley Line walkers, Juicers, Coalition Troops, Samas, Tolkeen, & The Federation Of Magic. Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
isaki
D-Bee
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:17 am

Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by isaki »

The tattoo warrior OCCs in RDB15: Secrets of the Atlanteans states that due to the number of tattoos the character has, they are considered minor supernatural creatures and have supernatural strength and endurance. Does this imply that the tattoo variants that were not revisited in RDB15 in RWB2 (Atlantis) are also supernatural creatures with supernatural strength and endurance (such as the Tattoo Warrior, Maxi-Warrior, and Monster-man OCCs)?

Thanks.
User avatar
Nekira Sudacne
Monk
Posts: 15488
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Contact:

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Do they come with more, same, or fewer tattoos than the regular variants?

If the same or less, then that would indicate it's intended to be an across the board rule change.

Or prehaps it means, only Atlanteans become minor supernatural beings when given Tattoos, because they are already quasi-magical with innate powers.
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon
User avatar
isaki
D-Bee
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:17 am

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by isaki »

Thanks for the input!

The revisited versions in RDB15 get the same number of tattoos as their original variants (I'm basing this on the Undead Slayer OCC, as the other variants are new but have the same rule).

The last point you make is pretty much what I'm trying to figure out; it is entirely plausible that an Atlantean Maxi-Man might be a supernatural creature whereas a human Maxi-Man would not.

I brought this up to my weekly Rifts group and some thought it was intended as an across the board change. Our GM thought, like you suggested, that it is unique to Atlanteans. Hence, I brought the question here to try and get to the bottom of this.
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

FYI, this isnt new. Undead Slayers and Monster Hunters have always had supernatural strength. Both were Atlantean-only. This isnt called out in specifically in the OCC descriptions (it doesn't say “strength is supernatural”, but #12 under both say “is considered to be a supernatural being” - meaning all attributes are supernatural) But the NPCs of said classes have this note (Specifically Galahad in WB3], further reinforcing it.

Edit:

So, to answer the OPs question.... this isnt a new rule and no, the non- Atlantean T-men are NOT considered supernatural beings, as this power is specifically NOT in their descriptions, including the much newer T-Archer in Dimensional Market.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
Shark_Force
Palladin
Posts: 7128
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by Shark_Force »

isn't galahad a dragon? i don't think i would use him as a standard for all other tattoo OCCs =S

also, supernatural being does not necessarily mean supernatural strength. it is certainly fairly common, but not a requirement; you can be supernatural and not have supernatural PS, you can have supernatural PS and not be supernatural.
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Shark_Force wrote:isn't galahad a dragon? i don't think i would use him as a standard for all other tattoo OCCs =S

also, supernatural being does not necessarily mean supernatural strength. it is certainly fairly common, but not a requirement; you can be supernatural and not have supernatural PS, you can have supernatural PS and not be supernatural.


No, hes an Undead Slayer. Percival is a Chiang-Ku.

And id like a source on the Supernatural being that doesnt have Supernatural PS. ‘Cause i can think of precisely zero.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
User avatar
Mack
Supreme Being
Posts: 6295
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 2:01 am
Comment: This space for rent.
Location: Searching the Dinosaur Swamp
Contact:

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by Mack »

Another reference point: Mercenaries, p80 has Urlik an Ogre Tattooed Man, and he does NOT have supernatural PS.
Some gave all.
Love your neighbor.
Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.
Shark_Force
Palladin
Posts: 7128
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:isn't galahad a dragon? i don't think i would use him as a standard for all other tattoo OCCs =S

also, supernatural being does not necessarily mean supernatural strength. it is certainly fairly common, but not a requirement; you can be supernatural and not have supernatural PS, you can have supernatural PS and not be supernatural.


No, hes an Undead Slayer. Percival is a Chiang-Ku.

And id like a source on the Supernatural being that doesnt have Supernatural PS. ‘Cause i can think of precisely zero.


just went through CB1r (which was the main option i had handy) to find one for you. wasn't that hard. the main difficulty was in finding something that was explicitly supernatural rather than just very likely to be supernatural (particularly considering they could instead be creatures of magic, like faeries which would otherwise be good examples in at least some cases).

the eye killer. first line of its description clearly states it is a supernatural being. does not have supernatural PS.

also scarecrows. and spectres. and syvans. some of the worms of taut. zavor. it really isn't all *that* uncommon. i would not say it is by any means the standard for supernatural beings to not have supernatural strength or endurance, but it is not a requirement.
User avatar
isaki
D-Bee
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:17 am

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by isaki »

Thanks for all the info.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by eliakon »

Shark_Force wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:isn't galahad a dragon? i don't think i would use him as a standard for all other tattoo OCCs =S

also, supernatural being does not necessarily mean supernatural strength. it is certainly fairly common, but not a requirement; you can be supernatural and not have supernatural PS, you can have supernatural PS and not be supernatural.


No, hes an Undead Slayer. Percival is a Chiang-Ku.

And id like a source on the Supernatural being that doesnt have Supernatural PS. ‘Cause i can think of precisely zero.


just went through CB1r (which was the main option i had handy) to find one for you. wasn't that hard. the main difficulty was in finding something that was explicitly supernatural rather than just very likely to be supernatural (particularly considering they could instead be creatures of magic, like faeries which would otherwise be good examples in at least some cases).

the eye killer. first line of its description clearly states it is a supernatural being. does not have supernatural PS.

also scarecrows. and spectres. and syvans. some of the worms of taut. zavor. it really isn't all *that* uncommon. i would not say it is by any means the standard for supernatural beings to not have supernatural strength or endurance, but it is not a requirement.

Thanks for doing that. It is actually rather helpful as this is a perennial point of contention. Having someone actually sit down and find some citable examples for when this rears its head again in the future is very appreciated.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Shark_Force wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:isn't galahad a dragon? i don't think i would use him as a standard for all other tattoo OCCs =S

also, supernatural being does not necessarily mean supernatural strength. it is certainly fairly common, but not a requirement; you can be supernatural and not have supernatural PS, you can have supernatural PS and not be supernatural.


No, hes an Undead Slayer. Percival is a Chiang-Ku.

And id like a source on the Supernatural being that doesnt have Supernatural PS. ‘Cause i can think of precisely zero.


just went through CB1r (which was the main option i had handy) to find one for you. wasn't that hard.


ahh.. i think you may want to check again.

the main difficulty was in finding something that was explicitly supernatural rather than just very likely to be supernatural (particularly considering they could instead be creatures of magic, like faeries which would otherwise be good examples in at least some cases).


Creatures of magic can muddy the waters a bit, since they DONT necessarily have supernatural PS as they aren't inherently supernatural beings... but your choices of examples (however incorrect) are all defined as supernatural beings as far as i can tell (except the last one, well get to that)

the eye killer. first line of its description clearly states it is a supernatural being. does not have supernatural PS.


Go ahead and quote me the part of the description where it says "despite being a supernatural being, it does not have supernatural PS".. or anything remotely like that. It doesn't.

also scarecrows.


Again, explicitly calls them out as supernatural beings, and does not say anywhere that their PS is not supernatural. It DOES say that they inflict a set amount of damage regardless of PS. There are a number of supernatural creatures who have this particular limitation (where the damage they do is either too low for their SN PS or too high).

and spectres.


Again, it says they are supernatural creatures, and does not say they dont have supernatural PS.

and syvans. some of the worms of taut.


Same for all of these.

zavor. it really isn't all *that* uncommon. i would not say it is by any means the standard for supernatural beings to not have supernatural strength or endurance, but it is not a requirement.


having re-read the entry for these guys about six times now, i'm not seeing a single reference that says these guys are supernatural beings.

The entries for all of the supernatural creatures explicitly state that they are supernatural. They dont ALSO have to say "has supernatural PS".... because that would be pointless repetition of an already stated fact. (Not that Palladium doesn't sometimes do this).
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by eliakon »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
the eye killer. first line of its description clearly states it is a supernatural being. does not have supernatural PS.


Go ahead and quote me the part of the description where it says "despite being a supernatural being, it does not have supernatural PS".. or anything remotely like that. It doesn't.

also scarecrows.


Again, explicitly calls them out as supernatural beings, and does not say anywhere that their PS is not supernatural. It DOES say that they inflict a set amount of damage regardless of PS. There are a number of supernatural creatures who have this particular limitation (where the damage they do is either too low for their SN PS or too high).

and spectres.


Again, it says they are supernatural creatures, and does not say they dont have supernatural PS.

and syvans. some of the worms of taut.


Same for all of these.

zavor. it really isn't all *that* uncommon. i would not say it is by any means the standard for supernatural beings to not have supernatural strength or endurance, but it is not a requirement.


having re-read the entry for these guys about six times now, i'm not seeing a single reference that says these guys are supernatural beings.

The entries for all of the supernatural creatures explicitly state that they are supernatural. They dont ALSO have to say "has supernatural PS".... because that would be pointless repetition of an already stated fact. (Not that Palladium doesn't sometimes do this).

An interesting premise...
I take it that your claim is that being supernatural automatically makes the PS supernatural yes?
And that fixed PS damage is not really a sign that it isn't.
I understand your stance... but is there support for it?
Specifically if most supernatural things ALSO have their PS listed as SN then it would imply that SN must be listed as SN to be SN. Thus is it "pointless repetition of a fact" or is it "establishing a separate but closely related fact"?
After all canon has clearly established that "Supernatural Strength" is not because a thing is supernatural. Therefore the corollary seems to be logically true... just because a thing is supernatural its strength may not be Supernatural. Just that it may be.
Personally I don't have a dog in this fight as I have my house rules and I use them, but for the canonically curious... *shrugs*
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
isaki
D-Bee
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:17 am

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by isaki »

So, just to throw more information into the mix, according to page 142 of RDB15 (Secrets of the Atanteans):

RDB15; p. 142 wrote:The magic tattoos augment the recipient and when seven or more are applied, make him into a superhuman with Supernatural Strength and Endurance and an M.D.C. body.


Later on that page it starts talking about Atlanteans specifically. This quote immediately follows discussions of humans being uniquely suited for magic tattoos (and as such might place Chaing-Ku as originating on Earth).

So, the way I interpret this is that non-Atlantean tattooed warriors have Supernatural Strength and Endurance without being Supernatural creatures themselves. This would explain why the Atlantean specific T-Variants all state that such Atlanteans are supernatural creatures and have supernatural PS and PE.

Thoughts?
User avatar
The Beast
Demon Lord Extraordinaire
Posts: 5956
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:28 pm
Comment: You probably think this comment is about you, don't you?
Location: Apocrypha

Re: Secrets of the Atlanteans Tattoo Warrior Rule Changes

Unread post by The Beast »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:isn't galahad a dragon? i don't think i would use him as a standard for all other tattoo OCCs =S

also, supernatural being does not necessarily mean supernatural strength. it is certainly fairly common, but not a requirement; you can be supernatural and not have supernatural PS, you can have supernatural PS and not be supernatural.


No, hes an Undead Slayer. Percival is a Chiang-Ku.

And id like a source on the Supernatural being that doesnt have Supernatural PS. ‘Cause i can think of precisely zero.


just went through CB1r (which was the main option i had handy) to find one for you. wasn't that hard.


ahh.. i think you may want to check again.

the main difficulty was in finding something that was explicitly supernatural rather than just very likely to be supernatural (particularly considering they could instead be creatures of magic, like faeries which would otherwise be good examples in at least some cases).


Creatures of magic can muddy the waters a bit, since they DONT necessarily have supernatural PS as they aren't inherently supernatural beings... but your choices of examples (however incorrect) are all defined as supernatural beings as far as i can tell (except the last one, well get to that)

the eye killer. first line of its description clearly states it is a supernatural being. does not have supernatural PS.


Go ahead and quote me the part of the description where it says "despite being a supernatural being, it does not have supernatural PS".. or anything remotely like that. It doesn't.

also scarecrows.


Again, explicitly calls them out as supernatural beings, and does not say anywhere that their PS is not supernatural. It DOES say that they inflict a set amount of damage regardless of PS. There are a number of supernatural creatures who have this particular limitation (where the damage they do is either too low for their SN PS or too high).

and spectres.


Again, it says they are supernatural creatures, and does not say they dont have supernatural PS.

and syvans. some of the worms of taut.


Same for all of these.

zavor. it really isn't all *that* uncommon. i would not say it is by any means the standard for supernatural beings to not have supernatural strength or endurance, but it is not a requirement.


having re-read the entry for these guys about six times now, i'm not seeing a single reference that says these guys are supernatural beings.

The entries for all of the supernatural creatures explicitly state that they are supernatural. They dont ALSO have to say "has supernatural PS".... because that would be pointless repetition of an already stated fact. (Not that Palladium doesn't sometimes do this).


Actually it's the fact that Palladium will note that a supernatural creature's PS is supernatural that gives his argument more weight.
Post Reply

Return to “Rifts®”