Typo or intended change: RCB1 vs RCB1:R

[isaki]

Greetings!

I noticed many of the monsters/creatures listed in the Rifts Conversion Book 1 received various buffs/nerfs in the revised edition. Most are relatively in line with the previous incarnations. However, one in particular strikes me as odd. On page 139 of RCB1, the MD of a Harpy is listed as 2d4 + 20. On page 157 of RCB1:R, it lists the MD as 4d6x10. That means the MD range when from 22-28 to 40-240. That seems pretty extreme.

Is this correct?

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes, it is correct and extreme.

On the other hand, a T-Rex in the original RMB would have 40 MDC max, compared to over 10x that post-New-West.
So it's not the biggest power creep around.

[isaki]

I did a bit of research to compare, and I'm not convinced this is right.

Let's look at the Peryton (the demon dear; this is relatively unchanged from RCB1 to RCB1:R; in fact overall the Peryton received a reduction in physical stats while its MD remained unchanged).

The Peryton has the following:

MD: 3d6x10 + 10 = 40-190
HP: 2d6 + 8 + 6d6 = 16 - 56
SDC: 2d4x10 AR10 = 20 - 80

Now we compare the Harpy (which is wildly enhanced between revisions):

MD: 4d6 x 10 = 40 - 240
HP: 4d6 + 20 = 24 - 44
SDC: 2d4 + 20 AR6 = 22-28

Ignoring AR (to me a lower AR would make the SDC value worth even less, which only helps my argument, so I leave it out), we end up with the following:

Pertyon: 36 - 136 effective health outside of Rifts, 40 - 190 in Rifts. So we end up with an offset of 4 on the low end and 54 on the high.
Harpy: 46 - 72 effective health outside of Rifts, 40 - 240 in Rifts. So we end up with -6 on the low end and 168 on the high. In fact, its effective max health more than doubles on Rifts Earth and exceeds that of larger creatures.

Thus, the 4d6x10 is way too high. Why do I say that? Because the AR is so low, it makes the SDC extremely situational. Thus, a negative offset when converting total effective health excluding AR multipliers on the low end (which we see) and a minor boost on the high end (to mirror the peryton) would make sense. I would argue it should be something like 4d6 + 20 (same as the HP) and ignore the low AR SDC altogether.

I agree that some creep is expected (your t-rex example is a great counter point to my argument), but I feel like this just doesn't make sense. I can see a T-Rex having 400 MD. I can't see a human sized bird creature suddenly having 50 more MD than a demon deer that normally has more than 40 effective health and a better AR in a non-MDC world over that same creature.

[Killer Cyborg]

I can see a T-Rex having 400 MD.

Can you, though?
I mean, a WWII era tank has something like 12 MDC, and I'm pretty sure that one could beat a T-Rex in a fight.
I certainly have trouble picturing a T-Rex being completely impervious to 7.62mm, .50 BMG, or 14mm bullets, and I tend to think that one would realistically do more than flinch if you chucked a stick of dynamite (6d6 SDC) at its head.

I thought that the original 1d4x10 MDC was over-powered for what are basically just non-magical prehistoric lizard-birds that could likely have been killed by a group of medieval or Napoleonic soldiers, to say nothing of WWII-era or later infantry.

I think that a big problem with the setting is that the writers often don't think of how powerful Mega-Damage actually IS.

I can't see a human sized bird creature suddenly having 50 more MD than a demon deer that normally has more than 40 effective health and a better AR in a non-MDC world over that same creature.

Is it weird?
Sure.
But that doesn't mean it's not deliberate.
We're talking about Conversion Book 1, where wrist hardening exercises make you completely bullet-proof.

[Nightmartree]

And so why they no longer say that we are fighting dinosaurs but we are now fighting magically enhanced other dimensional dinosaurs.

Yep, they even went so far as to make it canon so you can know the terror of a 400 MDC carnivorous demi-lizard eating your robot

That said I find a Harpy being able to take shots from a boom gun to be...ehhhhh...disturbing? Maybe we should have the first number be for harpies normal and the second one be for the harpies that hang around in greek mythology...they always make things stronger in the pantheons

[Killer Cyborg]

And so why they no longer say that we are fighting dinosaurs but we are now fighting magically enhanced other dimensional dinosaurs.

When/where?

[Nightmartree]

And so why they no longer say that we are fighting dinosaurs but we are now fighting magically enhanced other dimensional dinosaurs.

When/where?

Dinosaur Swamp though i believe it was one of several possible explanations as the explanation for why we have MDC magic ability using power lizards, i do not believe they use the words "Magicaly Enhanced" specifically but they are now primarily D-bees OR Dinosaur times were minor magical time. They left it ambigous intentionally so they can use the time holes or rifts.

i'm looking it up now to check that i'm rememembering the details right

Oh I appear to be presenting my own interpretation of page 13, which has them saying they don't know why dinosaurs are magic. So canon they are still prehistoric creatures from earth past (in most cases). I apologize for any confusion, I think I was getting mixed up between dinosaurs, dinosaur like beings, and the ambiguity surrounding where dinosaurs get magic.

[Mack]

And so why they no longer say that we are fighting dinosaurs but we are now fighting magically enhanced other dimensional dinosaurs.

When/where?

New West p138.
"A note about dinosaurs. The American continents have been repopulated with a variety of dinosaurs or alien equivalents. True dinosaurs have been Rifted through time into the modern day, while dinosaur-like creatures from other worlds have arrived through dimensional Rifts... Many of the most notable dinosaur and dinosaur-like creatures are described in the following pages..."

On p153, under Ostrosaurus.
"They are warm blooded, predatory dinosaur-like creatures..."

On p164, under Tri-Tops.
"Whether these are ceratopid dinosaurs from Earth's past or similar creatures from another world is unknown."


With that in mind, there's enough ambiguity to suggest both version of the T-Rex live on Rifts Earth: one from the past and one from another dimension.

[Nightmartree]

With that in mind, perhaps both version of the T-Rex live on Rifts Earth: one from the past and one from another dimension.

i'd buy that, even if its not a dimensional being they do mention the gene splicers potentially being behind the magic abilities of dinosaurs in the swamps. Though my original source proved me wrong it was kind enough to offer up that tidbit.

[Killer Cyborg]

And so why they no longer say that we are fighting dinosaurs but we are now fighting magically enhanced other dimensional dinosaurs.

When/where?

New West p138.
"A note about dinosaurs. The American continents have been repopulated with a variety of dinosaurs or alien equivalents. True dinosaurs have been Rifted through time into the modern day, while dinosaur-like creatures from other worlds have arrived through dimensional Rifts... Many of the most notable dinosaur and dinosaur-like creatures are described in the following pages..."

On p153, under Ostrosaurus.
"They are warm blooded, predatory dinosaur-like creatures..."

On p164, under Tri-Tops.
"Whether these are ceratopid dinosaurs from Earth's past or similar creatures from another world is unknown."


With that in mind, there's enough ambiguity to suggest both version of the T-Rex live on Rifts Earth: one from the past and one from another dimension.

I think it suggests that there are true dinosaurs rifted through time, and dinosaur-like creatures like the Ostrosaurus and other imaginary stuff in the Dino Swamps book.

I think that the Tri-Tops description is just giving some leeway for GMs to say, "Okay, real dinos wouldn't have anything like these stats, so these are just other-dimensional beings that for some reason look effectively identical to the real-world animal, but are mega-damage."

Which wouldn't have to have been done if the stats had been kept reasonable.

But yeah, that all fits what I remember: "maybe these are real dinos, maybe not."
Thanks for looking it up.

[Killer Cyborg]

I apologize for any confusion, I think I was getting mixed up between dinosaurs, dinosaur like beings, and the ambiguity surrounding where dinosaurs get magic.

no worries.

[Proseksword]

Greetings!

I noticed many of the monsters/creatures listed in the Rifts Conversion Book 1 received various buffs/nerfs in the revised edition. Most are relatively in line with the previous incarnations. However, one in particular strikes me as odd. On page 139 of RCB1, the MD of a Harpy is listed as 2d4 + 20. On page 157 of RCB1:R, it lists the MD as 4d6x10. That means the MD range when from 22-28 to 40-240. That seems pretty extreme.

Is this correct?

Dimension Book 11 offers a partial explanation as well as a further changes -

The basic Harpy is now listed with 4D6+24 MDC (28-48 MDC)
The new Dire Harpy has 2D4x10+22 MDC (62-102 MDC)

So, it seems like there are two varieties of Harpy. Of course, with that clarification we once again get yet another set of values for determining MDC. Like most things with Palladium games, it's best not to overthink this and just use the one that makes you happiest!

[isaki]

Dimension Book 11 offers a partial explanation as well as a further changes -

The basic Harpy is now listed with 4D6+24 MDC (28-48 MDC)
The new Dire Harpy has 2D4x10+22 MDC (62-102 MDC)

So, it seems like there are two varieties of Harpy. Of course, with that clarification we once again get yet another set of values for determining MDC. Like most things with Palladium games, it's best not to overthink this and just use the one that makes you happiest!

This is super helpful, thank you!

[Axelmania]

Someone recently pointed out in another thread how Gorgons got an SDC boost in DB11, and I think I noticed the Alu got an SDC boost in DB10, in respect to the SDC they were assigned in PF2, if that helps. Power creep everywhere.

Looked up DB11 and was about to post it but noticed Proseksword already did.

One resolve we could have here: use the higher MDC for Rifts Earth, use the lower MDC for Dyval. That would make sense since Rifts Earth is supposed to have more magic energy than anyplace right?

Or just treat them as entirely different breeds. CBRp139's breed and DB11p38's Host have more than MDC that's different:
*Host are +1 to IQ
*Host are +9 less 1D6 to PS
*Host are +10 less 2D6 to PP and PE
*Host are +8 less 2D6 to Spd

So I would use the CBR ones for "wild" harpies whereas the less variable (but higher on average) attributes with the lower MDC are a 'specially bred' family of Host Harpies used as Dyvalian servants. For higher average performance they have lost versatility, capping their maximum achievement (except in PS) especially lowering their MDC.

[isaki]

This is all really good info. Thank you!

[Blue_Lion]

And so why they no longer say that we are fighting dinosaurs but we are now fighting magically enhanced other dimensional dinosaurs.

When/where?

New West p138.
"A note about dinosaurs. The American continents have been repopulated with a variety of dinosaurs or alien equivalents. True dinosaurs have been Rifted through time into the modern day, while dinosaur-like creatures from other worlds have arrived through dimensional Rifts... Many of the most notable dinosaur and dinosaur-like creatures are described in the following pages..."

On p153, under Ostrosaurus.
"They are warm blooded, predatory dinosaur-like creatures..."

On p164, under Tri-Tops.
"Whether these are ceratopid dinosaurs from Earth's past or similar creatures from another world is unknown."


With that in mind, there's enough ambiguity to suggest both version of the T-Rex live on Rifts Earth: one from the past and one from another dimension.

I think it suggests that there are true dinosaurs rifted through time, and dinosaur-like creatures like the Ostrosaurus and other imaginary stuff in the Dino Swamps book.

I think that the Tri-Tops description is just giving some leeway for GMs to say, "Okay, real dinos wouldn't have anything like these stats, so these are just other-dimensional beings that for some reason look effectively identical to the real-world animal, but are mega-damage."

Which wouldn't have to have been done if the stats had been kept reasonable.

But yeah, that all fits what I remember: "maybe these are real dinos, maybe not."
Thanks for looking it up.

It does justify using both t-rexs though. The one from the old book would be the one throgh time and the other a look alike from a rift.