House Rules Question

[Nightmartree]

I HATE the way certain things require a permanent sacrifice of PPE or HP but don't perform a permanent or guaranteed benefit. Like the loss of PPE for making magic items or HP for making a golem. It's a personal thing but I'm wondering if anyone has any house rules to ease the pain?

I'm not saying remove them but alternative costs, currently my best idea is simple making it last for a few weeks or months, and for things like a golem making it last till the golem dies and then a few months of "recovery". It still makes it impactful and something a mage would be generally unwilling to do unless well compensated or in a safe environment were missing part of their PPE for a while wouldn't be a big deal. It also makes it so a mage doesn't spend X years learning magic just so that making a few magical items doesn't wipe out their ability to be a mage...

[dragonfett]

As a GM, I would allow a ritual where the sacrifice came from someone else. This would give a VERY compelling argument for cults and the like...

[Library Ogre]

I think the "Can use someone else for the sacrifice" is a good option... perhaps even spread it out among followers. It makes those folks a bit more vile.

[Nightmartree]

That's an amazing idea and one I hadn't even had a glimmer of an idea of!

and that right there already makes me feel better about life...and encourages mages to make deals and contracts with people for things like "your soul", "your energy" or "your blood and life".

[Library Ogre]

For fun, toss in weird bits like "The magic will not function against the donor." So, that golem you outsourced the life to won't attack the person you used to supply the HP. It won't obey them... it just won't attack them.

[Mack]

For fun, toss in weird bits like "The magic will not function against the donor." So, that golem you outsourced the life to won't attack the person you used to supply the HP. It won't obey them... it just won't attack them.

This post is why we need a Like button.

[ShadowLogan]

I think one should look at the reason for the costs in the first place before you go about altering them. Both seem to be about balance (balance in Rifts?... okay a hold over from earlier lines but still).

The permanent costs seem to be there to restrict the use of said rituals/spells so as to not unbalance things*. That in a way explains why Techno-Wizards and Alchemists (and similar OCCs) take so long for their creations, they aren't taking shortcuts and they don't lose their PPE or SDC or HP permanently as a result (generally/AFAIK).

I'd also downplay the loss of PPE, since there are generally ways to get around it (cast high level spells on ley lines, Talismans as PPE batteries, draw PPE from people, etc). Now it might require the mage to be better prepared, but its not as much a hindrance.

*Consider if you can create a magical artifact rather quickly w/o the cost of permanent PPE loss... what is to stop the player from doing this repeatedly to raise large sums of money? Or Golems, if the HP/SDC cost wears off after a time (loss of Golem I can see requiring time), you could essentially create an army of Golems w/o much restriction (granted Zombies/Mummies can be turned into an army much quicker, but not as durable).

[eliakon]

If you want a reason why not everyone is doing this?
There is a Magical Proficiency in TtGD that allows for group casting of magic.
Now normally there is no point in taking this twice as why bother doubling being able to cast with other mages...
...what if taking it TWICE allows you to bring a NON-mage into the circle. A non-mage who can then contribute PPE, even base PPE to the spell.
It allows for the power to be outsourced as it were, but only a select few will have it so you do not instantly change the dynamics of the game with easily available hordes of golems and the like.

(For the record this is how I run things in my games. It has worked out well and led to some very interesting social developments)

[Nightmartree]

I think one should look at the reason for the costs in the first place before you go about altering them. Both seem to be about balance (balance in Rifts?... okay a hold over from earlier lines but still).

The permanent costs seem to be there to restrict the use of said rituals/spells so as to not unbalance things*. That in a way explains why Techno-Wizards and Alchemists (and similar OCCs) take so long for their creations, they aren't taking shortcuts and they don't lose their PPE or SDC or HP permanently as a result (generally/AFAIK).

I'd also downplay the loss of PPE, since there are generally ways to get around it (cast high level spells on ley lines, Talismans as PPE batteries, draw PPE from people, etc). Now it might require the mage to be better prepared, but its not as much a hindrance.

*Consider if you can create a magical artifact rather quickly w/o the cost of permanent PPE loss... what is to stop the player from doing this repeatedly to raise large sums of money? Or Golems, if the HP/SDC cost wears off after a time (loss of Golem I can see requiring time), you could essentially create an army of Golems w/o much restriction (granted Zombies/Mummies can be turned into an army much quicker, but not as durable).

I don't mind turning them into long term rituals or requiring other things as cost, but to me permanent sacrifice of hp or ppe is like cutting off your fingers for gold. You give up a part of yourself for something you may not get to keep.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't cut off my finger for a gold bar, and currently these are the only ways to get certain things in canon. That's why I was asking what would you do as an alternative, it also would go some ways to explaining the seeming hundred of magic items a lot of places have without the ensuing gamut of mages with reduced PPE.

I mean, as a mage would you spend years learning to bend the energies of reality to your whim only to permanently cripple yourself (however small) by making a magic item? So many other classes and races have ways to make magic items without crippling themselves why do the "men of magic" have to pay so much?

Again, I don't mind paying a price for items and magic, but I hate how I'm effectively crippling a character every time I want to make a magical item and i'm not using that word lightly, it seriously is distressing because it doesn't feel like an equal exchange. Not when a techno wizard can make hundred or thousands of items and be perfectly okay, same with an herbalist or druid or almost any other class who can use magic to craft.

Also, I did mention in my example the golem keeping your hp until it died and then requiring a recovery period to regain it (essentially giving it a bit of your life you can't recover until its gone). And whats to stop a factory from turning out thousands of guns to sell and get rich? I don't think what i'm asking is that huge of a change and i'm perfectly okay with there being a cost, I just feel that this is the nuclear option of costs being used on everyday items.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't mind turning them into long term rituals or requiring other things as cost, but to me permanent sacrifice of hp or ppe is like cutting off your fingers for gold. You give up a part of yourself for something you may not get to keep.

Except it isn't exactly a permanent loss of HP or PPE since when you level up you get more HP and PPE. Granted earning enough XP to level up might be difficult.

Not when a techno wizard can make hundred or thousands of items and be perfectly okay, same with an herbalist or druid or almost any other class who can use magic to craft.

Consider this though, the TW/Alchemist may be able to make hundreds/thousands and be fine BUT how quick are they doing it compared to a Ley Line Walker/Wizard per item?

A TW time is measured in hours/days* and isn't a slam dunk (skill roll per RUE), the Ley Line Walker/Wizard can do it much quicker (how long does it take them to cas the spell/ritual) and is guaranteed success (though might have to wait a longer time between doing it again). Alchemist (PF2E) is just an NPC and it takes them months to construct a magic item. EcoWizards aren't much different than TW IIRC. I'm not familiar with other types, but I suspect they aren't much different either.

*this is on average, by the math in RUE the minimum is 1hr assuming a Device Level 1 and 1 PPE Construction Cost with 1 carrot gem, you can reduce it farther by better gem quality, but it is far easier to increase the time than decrease the time.

That's why I was asking what would you do as an alternative, it also would go some ways to explaining the seeming hundred of magic items a lot of places have without the ensuing gamut of mages with reduced PPE.

Except that not every magic item/spell comes with this cost. Scrolls, Talismans, Amulets, Zombies, and Mummies do not come with this cost (that's just off the top of my head) for items (and more spell/rituals lack this that I don't think I need to list any) in the Wizard Invocation list (Necromancy also IINM has examples). The ones with a cost generally put something in about taxing the mage IINM in some ways as an explanation.

How many of those items are based on classes that specialize in creating items? As specialists one would expect them to be better at what they do than a general practitioner.

[Nightmartree]

I don't mind turning them into long term rituals or requiring other things as cost, but to me permanent sacrifice of hp or ppe is like cutting off your fingers for gold. You give up a part of yourself for something you may not get to keep.

Except it isn't exactly a permanent loss of HP or PPE since when you level up you get more HP and PPE. Granted earning enough XP to level up might be difficult.

So a permanent addition to your characters maximum limits is "recovering"?

Not when a techno wizard can make hundred or thousands of items and be perfectly okay, same with an herbalist or druid or almost any other class who can use magic to craft.

Consider this though, the TW/Alchemist may be able to make hundreds/thousands and be fine BUT how quick are they doing it compared to a Ley Line Walker/Wizard per item?

A TW time is measured in hours/days* and isn't a slam dunk (skill roll per RUE), the Ley Line Walker/Wizard can do it much quicker (how long does it take them to cas the spell/ritual) and is guaranteed success (though might have to wait a longer time between doing it again). Alchemist (PF2E) is just an NPC and it takes them months to construct a magic item. EcoWizards aren't much different than TW IIRC. I'm not familiar with other types, but I suspect they aren't much different either.

*this is on average, by the math in RUE the minimum is 1hr assuming a Device Level 1 and 1 PPE Construction Cost with 1 carrot gem, you can reduce it farther by better gem quality, but it is far easier to increase the time than decrease the time.

i have stated that I don't mind if the solution is to make the spell a ritual or something else, but its currently is impossible for them to make it any way but by the "fast" means.

That's why I was asking what would you do as an alternative, it also would go some ways to explaining the seeming hundred of magic items a lot of places have without the ensuing gamut of mages with reduced PPE.

Except that not every magic item/spell comes with this cost. Scrolls, Talismans, Amulets, Zombies, and Mummies do not come with this cost (that's just off the top of my head) for items (and more spell/rituals lack this that I don't think I need to list any) in the Wizard Invocation list (Necromancy also IINM has examples). The ones with a cost generally put something in about taxing the mage IINM in some ways as an explanation.

How many of those items are based on classes that specialize in creating items? As specialists one would expect them to be better at what they do than a general practitioner.

I do expect them to be better at it, I just don't see why a general practicioner of magic has to permanently injure them selves to achieve a permanent item when no one else does. AND that item isn't any better than what the other people can make despite the much enhanced costs. Also why are you going so far to convince me i'm wrong when I've said repeatedly this is a personal issue I have and nothing wrong with the game?

Also it's not like a necromancer can't cast spells, or a technowizard, they just use different ones or means. The closest to a dedicated crafts person I can think of amongst the magic users is the herbalist and druids from England. And they have low PPE for a mage and limited crafting. In addition you never actually addressed the fact that with the seeming mass production of magical items in some places that many mages would be wandering around with reduced PPE, Talismans, Amulets, Scrolls and Mummies/Zombies don't reduce your PPE to create, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are discussing the magical items that do cost PPE. Even if they say the items is rare and only people of X class in the country get them they often go on to list hundreds or thousands of people in the class as being part of the country...that's hundreds or thousands of people who are now short PPE.

And THAT is still not the point of this thread, the point of this thread was to inquire about other possible costs/means to use these spells without a permanent sacrifice for what I PERSONALLY don't feel is worth it. The reasons I don't like it actually don't matter and shouldn't be argued here as it detracts from my actual goal.

[Killer Cyborg]

If there weren't any permanent cost to creating a Golem, then any mage I played have would build an army of Golems to protect the castle of golems that I'd rule from my golem-throne.

[Nightmartree]

If there weren't any permanent cost to creating a Golem, then any mage I played have would build an army of Golems to protect the castle of golems that I'd rule from my golem-throne.

Require someone to magically craft a "golems heart" from precious materials, Link them to your HP so once the golem dies you can heal again, Have it require a special contract with a god or alien intelligence to have them imbue your creation with life ect. ect.

Or if your GM feels it okay

If there weren't any permanent cost to creating a Golem, then any mage I played have would build an army of Golems to protect the castle of golems that I'd rule from my golem-throne.

but I feel that's a bit extreme

[ShadowLogan]

So a permanent addition to your characters maximum limits is "recovering"?

Why not? You are essentially recovering the lost points in those areas.

i have stated that I don't mind if the solution is to make the spell a ritual or something else, but its currently is impossible for them to make it any way but by the "fast" means.

Which seems to be the way they are intended. It could come down to their approach to magic, we know that there are different disciplines after all, and they aren't as easy to learn in terms of mixing (Line Drawing BoM pg176 illustrates this, its also in WB9 but don't have the page reference handy).

I do expect them to be better at it, I just don't see why a general practicioner of magic has to permanently injure them selves to achieve a permanent item when no one else does. AND that item isn't any better than what the other people can make despite the much enhanced costs. Also why are you going so far to convince me i'm wrong when I've said repeatedly this is a personal issue I have and nothing wrong with the game?

The "injury" to cast a spell/ritual though has fairly short list out of the 300+ Wizard Invocations in Book of Magic I think there are only around 4 that even run into this issue (Create Golem, Close Rift, Enchant Weapon [Minor], and Ley Line Resurrection). And those are examples that generally are said to be taxing for the mage casting them (I think only Create Golem avoids this).

Juicer's can't get back their physical stats after Detox no matter how well they roll or how many skills they devote to picking up attribute bonuses. They just can't. How is the physical tax they put on their bodies any different than these spell/rituals?

n addition you never actually addressed the fact that with the seeming mass production of magical items in some places that many mages would be wandering around with

Did it occur to you that the source of these "mass production magic items" might be coming from specialists and not general practitioners?

And THAT is still not the point of this thread, the point of this thread was to inquire about other possible costs/means to use these spells without a permanent sacrifice for what I PERSONALLY don't feel is worth it. The reasons I don't like it actually don't matter and shouldn't be argued here as it detracts from my actual goal.

But if you don't understand why the cost is present in the first place, monkeying around with them could yield up issues you aren't anticipating.

[Nightmartree]

But if you don't understand why the cost is present in the first place, monkeying around with them could yield up issues you aren't anticipating.

Doing anything in palladium could have unforseen consequences, including picking any class in this game.

If you don't have anything to contribute can you please move on? This thread is specifically to ask for people opinions on what they think will work or what they use in place of a specific portion of the Palladium Core Rules that i feel detracts from my gaming experience. I understand that you feel it is a perfectly reasonable rule, but that doesn't effect my table or the goal of this thread.

That said I do really appreciate the answers I have gotten because all of them have been in directions I didn't consider and potentially add depth to the world.

[eliakon]

If there weren't any permanent cost to creating a Golem, then any mage I played have would build an army of Golems to protect the castle of golems that I'd rule from my golem-throne.

but I feel that's a bit extreme

I dunno. That spell is amazing. If there was no real cost? I would be building golems left and right myself too.
The cost of gems is a joke. TW has demonstrated that gems are less than no limitation at all.
Maybe permanent PPE is to much maybe it isn't... but with out SOMETHING spells like Golem or Enchant Weapon become the norm and resurection gives you the D&D revolving door on the afterlife.

[Nightmartree]

The cost of gems is a joke. TW has demonstrated that gems are less than no limitation at all.
Maybe permanent PPE is to much maybe it isn't... but with out SOMETHING spells like Golem or Enchant Weapon become the norm and resurection gives you the D&D revolving door on the afterlife.

One, if your getting gems from everywhere then its because your GM is letting you. I always find myself worrying when I look at a stone master or anyone who uses gems (we have several groups who do so) what the world availability of gems is with them "eating" them.

and two then tell me a cost you feel would be appropriate that is not permanent PPE loss. That's the entire point of this thread.

I'd also like to point out that create golem if you lost the "near infinite revives" part is not the most amazing thing since sliced bread, and that enchanted weapons in many locations pretty much is the norm, even if they aren't made with that exact spell. I also have to ask is a enchanted sword in most situations any different than a vibro blade? In fact even if a mage has the PPE to produce a magic sword every hour that's 14 swords a day (10 hours for sleep, eating and other needs)...how many vibro swords are produced on a production line? Laser rifles? suits of armor? I'll admit its a limited view and discards any higher powered blades, but even then I believe those have an increased mana cost and other requirments, essentially specialty items that are even harder to produce.

The only reason a magic item costs so much is because you require a specialist (a magic user) and the difficulty of production. If magic items are easier to produce that just means that kind of magic items doesn't cost so much so you can't get rich quick any easier than now. So its not gonna break the bank, it's not any faster at mass production than tech, it can potentially make some nice specialty items but so can tech...whats so bad about magic items?

As for revolving door on the after life...id rather have insanities, the person who was revived being screwed up, or a pissed off god of the afterlife complaining about me ruining their appointments (Yama kings don't like when you miss appointments), also if you really don't want folks to revive constantly...how are they getting the PPE to do this? that is a major ritual that should be closesly guarded how did they get it? This makes the soul drinker rune weapons far scarier, and demons or other beings from an underworlds could "steal" the characters soul and you have to get it back before you can revive them...sounds like a good adventure for some high level characters, literally go to hell and back for a friend. As it is now I forget the spell even exists because of the cost and I always assumed it was very well guarded by certain figures like most high level spells are stated to be.

[ShadowLogan]

and two then tell me a cost you feel would be appropriate that is not permanent PPE loss. That's the entire point of this thread.

Golems cost SDC not PPE.

The only spells I can think of that cost permanent PPE are ones that you aren't supposed to be casting all the time. How often do you think "Ley Line Resurrection" or "Close Rift" are going to be used? you can't make permanent magic weapons via "Enchant Weapon (Minor)" without a waiting period between castings on this level (suggesting again that the mage's body gets taxed). So here I would have to say that its a non-issue, especially since you can still draw PPE from other sources.

PPE, SDC, and Hit Points can be recovered/restored via leveling up or other means. Even ones that might damage the caster's attributes permanently (none come to mind) can be "recovered" by various means. In any case the fact that spell/rituals have this cost to me suggests they aren't supposed to be used very often.

[Proseksword]

If the intent is delay, I'd kind of rather they just have a specific cool-down time - you may only make 1 golem per X months or whatever.

I suspect where you stand on this is going to have parallels to how common you think technological MD weapons are in the world. Killer Cyborg's suggestion that he build an army of Golems seems rather ordinary to me, but I know I figure if he were an operator he could buy/scrape together an army of combat androids to fill the same role, whereas I know he's of the idea that the village militia is a Wilk's rifle, two old shotguns and a collection of sharpened sticks, so just buying/building robot guards would be off the table.

[Nightmartree]

If the intent is delay, I'd kind of rather they just have a specific cool-down time - you may only make 1 golem per X months or whatever.

I suspect where you stand on this is going to have parallels to how common you think technological MD weapons are in the world. Killer Cyborg's suggestion that he build an army of Golems seems rather ordinary to me, but I know I figure if he were an operator he could buy/scrape together an army of combat androids to fill the same role, whereas I know he's of the idea that the village militia is a Wilk's rifle, two old shotguns and a collection of sharpened sticks, so just buying/building robot guards would be off the table.

I'd also like to say that a group of killer robots would likely way outgun a group of golems. An iron golem has 80 MDC, if you make it man sized it can wear some armor, lets say you manage to pick up some old deadboy heavy armor (highest MDC basic armor in the books I have handy) that's another 80, oh and the one from the main book takes 1/2 from magical energy attacks, and normal kinetic attacks (the one from warlocks is 1/10th the PPE cost, but costs 4 HP instead of sdc and I 1/2 damage from magical energy and magic weapons). All told lets assume one golem from the main book is about 240 MDC. A sizeable amount of MDC, but it is also earth bound, non ranged has 4 actions with no modifiers...the only good things about a golem are that it can regen if it still has its heart and its resistant to a lot.

And I seriously wanna know where people are getting all their PPE, I may be using an old book but these guys apparently can whip out 700-1000 PPE or more and never bat an eye. If your on a nexus at midday/night you get 50 PPE per level, if your 10th level that's 500 PPE, and I've never had a GM let me hang around a nexus all the time. Let is a strong word but seriously they're supposed to be hot spots and greatly desired locations. If all you do is produce talismans that could push you over the edge but recharging them all will take forever. Most mages can't even get near enough PPE to cast a lot of these on their best day unless they're a cult leader, part of a guild or paid a ton of cash to people

[eliakon]

If the intent is delay, I'd kind of rather they just have a specific cool-down time - you may only make 1 golem per X months or whatever.

I suspect where you stand on this is going to have parallels to how common you think technological MD weapons are in the world. Killer Cyborg's suggestion that he build an army of Golems seems rather ordinary to me, but I know I figure if he were an operator he could buy/scrape together an army of combat androids to fill the same role, whereas I know he's of the idea that the village militia is a Wilk's rifle, two old shotguns and a collection of sharpened sticks, so just buying/building robot guards would be off the table.

I'd also like to say that a group of killer robots would likely way outgun a group of golems. An iron golem has 80 MDC, if you make it man sized it can wear some armor, lets say you manage to pick up some old deadboy heavy armor (highest MDC basic armor in the books I have handy) that's another 80, oh and the one from the main book takes 1/2 from magical energy attacks, and normal kinetic attacks (the one from warlocks is 1/10th the PPE cost, but costs 4 HP instead of sdc and I 1/2 damage from magical energy and magic weapons). All told lets assume one golem from the main book is about 240 MDC. A sizeable amount of MDC, but it is also earth bound, non ranged has 4 actions with no modifiers...the only good things about a golem are that it can regen if it still has its heart and its resistant to a lot.

And I seriously wanna know where people are getting all their PPE, I may be using an old book but these guys apparently can whip out 700-1000 PPE or more and never bat an eye. If your on a nexus at midday/night you get 50 PPE per level, if your 10th level that's 500 PPE, and I've never had a GM let me hang around a nexus all the time. Let is a strong word but seriously they're supposed to be hot spots and greatly desired locations. If all you do is produce talismans that could push you over the edge but recharging them all will take forever. Most mages can't even get near enough PPE to cast a lot of these on their best day unless they're a cult leader, part of a guild or paid a ton of cash to people

A few things here
1) Golems regenerate, AND unless the heart is destroyed come back (And most people DONT KNOW to destroy the heart... that is not exactly common knowledge after all. Players always metagame it sure... but most NPCs shouldn't know it)
2) There is no need for a technological infrastructure to make a golem unlike Robots with lasers
3) There have been endless threads on "how to get lots of PPE easily"
4) There is plenty of precident to the idea of simply giving your Golems gear of their own too...

[Nightmartree]

A few things here
1) Golems regenerate, AND unless the heart is destroyed come back (And most people DONT KNOW to destroy the heart... that is not exactly common knowledge after all. Players always metagame it sure... but most NPCs shouldn't know it)
2) There is no need for a technological infrastructure to make a golem unlike Robots with lasers
3) There have been endless threads on "how to get lots of PPE easily"
4) There is plenty of precident to the idea of simply giving your Golems gear of their own too...

1.If players are metagaming how to get lots of PPE easily on threads to make golem armies then I feel its fine for NPCs to metagame and figure out to remove that thingy inside the golem making it recover.
2.There is also many more robots that can be made in a similar amount of time when they have their infrastructure. Unless you have a large supply of Onyx, a bunch of people making bodies, and a way to recover hundred of PPE in a few hours as well as numerous mages who can cast create golem. If you can do that I have to ask why your bothering with golems when you could make scrolls of annihilation and hand them out to a death squad and just go explode enemy cities.
3. Every example of getting PPE easily i've seen has recomended abusing one spell, or things like "use your ley lines its easy" or "just make a lotta talismans". Ley lines and talismans have demerits that if used appopriately keep you from doing things like this unless you've managed to secure a solid base on a nexus or some such (a feat that shouldn't be a simple task) and likely your now using your golems just to hold that base in case something really bad pays a visit.
4. I actually had to double check, but ya they do have an IQ of 6 and can probably be taught how to use guns (i already put them in armor) but they still get NO BONUSES...i don't know about you but in the games i'm in thats a very very bad situation to be in.

So over all the reasons a golem army is good is because
A) PLAYERS breaking the game for PPE
B) NO ONE can figure out how to kill them
C) you need a mage to make them but nothing else unless, go to D
D) you give your golems gear to make them more powerful

Honestly...if your going to make an army and equip them with MD gear then your better off using Zombies from the ritual, regen in 48 hours unless head is buried seperate or an exorcism is performed, more intelligent (by a smidge), cheaper (even without PPE "hacks" you can afford one as a decent level mage near a leyline, note thats NEAR a leyline not on a nexus), they have a -4 to hit with guns, but i wouldn't expect them or the golems to hit anyway, probably best to equip with grenade launchers or mini missile launchers. Only problem? people who don't like you disturbing the dead

If you don't mind a lack of range attacks mummies are even harder to kill as long as they aren't facing people with fire, though they lose out on the respawns

You can't say one moment that something is good because X is a secret in game and then the next throw all the in game secrets out the window cause "player knowledge" tell them how to perform X task

[Killer Cyborg]

Robots are better than golems in a LOT of ways.
But robots cost millions of credits, and golems cost 2k-10k each.
Financially, for the cost of "cheap" 1 million-credit robot, a mage could buy the gems for 100-500 golems.

A golem takes 1/2 damage from physical attacks, so a golem with 160 MDC has an eqivalent of 320 MDC for most practical purposes.
And--as has been pointed out--they regenerate.

Yes, Golems can use guns if you give them guns. Straight out of the box, they don't have WPs... but that might be subject to change.
Regardless, they're certainly capable of throwing heavy objects (and probably each other). Not the same range as a gun, but better than just melee.

The PPE cost for creating a Golem is 700 or 1,000, depending.
An average LLW starts with 125 PPE at first level. That's not enough to cast the spell unaided, unless you're on a ley line, in which case all you need to do is a grueling 28.75 melee (something like seven minutes?) ritual (twice that, if you're not a LLW). That'd be pretty rough, but hey... for a nigh-indestructible, entirely loyal, loyally tireless servant? Well worth it.
Or you can get somebody to help.
If you have 7 buddies that are 1st level LLWs or the equivalent, you can hold hands and make golems without a ley line.
If you're evil, sacrifice a chicken or ten.
If you're not, sure, start a cult. Or hire a bunch of open-minded people to let you suck their PPE for a golem-making ritual.
It's hard to come up with 700-1000 PPE on the fly, but it's not all that hard with time and preparation. And it doesn't require metagaming or even esoteric in-game knowledge.
It's certainly nowhere near as daunting as permanently losing some SDC.
(Which, I suspect, is why people want a work-around for that particular penalty.)

[eliakon]

A few things here
1) Golems regenerate, AND unless the heart is destroyed come back (And most people DONT KNOW to destroy the heart... that is not exactly common knowledge after all. Players always metagame it sure... but most NPCs shouldn't know it)
2) There is no need for a technological infrastructure to make a golem unlike Robots with lasers
3) There have been endless threads on "how to get lots of PPE easily"
4) There is plenty of precident to the idea of simply giving your Golems gear of their own too...

1.If players are metagaming how to get lots of PPE easily on threads to make golem armies then I feel its fine for NPCs to metagame and figure out to remove that thingy inside the golem making it recover.

*facepalm*
It isn't metagaming to look at how PPE works and say "Oh gee. the basic rules of magic in the basic "how magic works section of the book" tell us X.
That isn't metagaming, that is just generic knowledge of how magic works. Any mage should know that by level one.
Thus knowing how a ritual works, that there are peak times of PPE, of that blood sacrifice is a thing... yeah that should be 100% basic knowledge.
There is a WORLD of difference between a mage knowing how magic works and every foe on the world knowing the vulnerabilities of a rare super high level spell...
Hence "metagaming"
I would presume that an opponent is going to need some really good lore rolls, or even the full on Principles of Magic skill to know that "to disrupt this one rare spell you must perform this one non-obvious action"

2.There is also many more robots that can be made in a similar amount of time when they have their infrastructure. Unless you have a large supply of Onyx, a bunch of people making bodies, and a way to recover hundred of PPE in a few hours as well as numerous mages who can cast create golem. If you can do that I have to ask why your bothering with golems when you could make scrolls of annihilation and hand them out to a death squad and just go explode enemy cities.

The point is that there are only a handful of places on the planet that HAVE that infrastructure.
Most places don't have robot factories. And all the trained technicians to run them. And all the materials to make the microchips, and optics, and nuclear power supplies, and e-clips, and energy weapons, and computers, and MDC alloys...
Unless your just handwaving away all the logistics and saying "Well of course they can just make as many robots as needed who cares"
Compared to that a supply of clay and onyx suddenly doesn't look all that hard to get.

3. Every example of getting PPE easily i've seen has recomended abusing one spell, or things like "use your ley lines its easy" or "just make a lotta talismans". Ley lines and talismans have demerits that if used appopriately keep you from doing things like this unless you've managed to secure a solid base on a nexus or some such (a feat that shouldn't be a simple task) and likely your now using your golems just to hold that base in case something really bad pays a visit.

The simplest and most commonly use in actual play that I have seen is simply to use animal sacrifice. Slaughterhouses for example. Another player proposed breeding mice for mass sacrifice.

4. I actually had to double check, but ya they do have an IQ of 6 and can probably be taught how to use guns (i already put them in armor) but they still get NO BONUSES...i don't know about you but in the games i'm in thats a very very bad situation to be in.

two things there
1) that presumes that they do not get the bonuses for the skills they learn
2) in most games you don't really NEED all that much bonus... just use AoE weapons like an AGL.

So over all the reasons a golem army is good is because
A) PLAYERS breaking the game for PPE
B) NO ONE can figure out how to kill them
C) you need a mage to make them but nothing else unless, go to D
D) you give your golems gear to make them more powerful

Honestly...if your going to make an army and equip them with MD gear then your better off using Zombies from the ritual, regen in 48 hours unless head is buried seperate or an exorcism is performed, more intelligent (by a smidge), cheaper (even without PPE "hacks" you can afford one as a decent level mage near a leyline, note thats NEAR a leyline not on a nexus), they have a -4 to hit with guns, but i wouldn't expect them or the golems to hit anyway, probably best to equip with grenade launchers or mini missile launchers. Only problem? people who don't like you disturbing the dead

Well, and you can only cast the spell once a month...

If you don't mind a lack of range attacks mummies are even harder to kill as long as they aren't facing people with fire, though they lose out on the respawns

You can't say one moment that something is good because X is a secret in game and then the next throw all the in game secrets out the window cause "player knowledge" tell them how to perform X task

No I am saying that the idea that everyone will know how to kill off a Golem in universe is absurd. It is metagaming at its worst and usually a sign of a vengful/killer GM "oh yeah, the enemy knows all the secrets of how to defeat your forces"

[dragonfett]

Here's another way to make Create Golem not suck as much. Make it have a 1 week cool down that the mage can't cast it again, and have the golem be animated for 1 day/caster level. The body doesn't fall apart (unless destroyed when not animated), it just won't move.

[Nightmartree]

I answered these from the bottom up, so if you don't wanna be confused, start below.

A few things here
1) Golems regenerate, AND unless the heart is destroyed come back (And most people DONT KNOW to destroy the heart... that is not exactly common knowledge after all. Players always metagame it sure... but most NPCs shouldn't know it)
2) There is no need for a technological infrastructure to make a golem unlike Robots with lasers
3) There have been endless threads on "how to get lots of PPE easily"
4) There is plenty of precident to the idea of simply giving your Golems gear of their own too...

1.If players are metagaming how to get lots of PPE easily on threads to make golem armies then I feel its fine for NPCs to metagame and figure out to remove that thingy inside the golem making it recover.

*facepalm*
It isn't metagaming to look at how PPE works and say "Oh gee. the basic rules of magic in the basic "how magic works section of the book" tell us X.
That isn't metagaming, that is just generic knowledge of how magic works. Any mage should know that by level one.
Thus knowing how a ritual works, that there are peak times of PPE, of that blood sacrifice is a thing... yeah that should be 100% basic knowledge.
There is a WORLD of difference between a mage knowing how magic works and every foe on the world knowing the vulnerabilities of a rare super high level spell...
Hence "metagaming"
I would presume that an opponent is going to need some really good lore rolls, or even the full on Principles of Magic skill to know that "to disrupt this one rare spell you must perform this one non-obvious action"

I have yet to see a "how to get more PPE" thread that didn't involve metagaming, striving to break the system with outside knowledge "ya once I get X spell that my character has looked for in every town, village and city I've passed despite never having heard of it before and having no idea what it is, i'll finally be able to perform action X and rule the world!". As for blood sacrifice and peak times of activity they are common knowledge, and i'll admit I never considered using thousands of mice as sacrifices. But that still brings up a lot of unpleasant questions (feeding them, cleaning cages, cost of maintenance, ethics of killing millions of innocent lives). As for slaughter houses and times of peak activity they have their own drawbacks. And though you COULD definitely use them to get PPE the amount required...it has its own costs, it takes 30 head of cattle (assuming MAX PPE) to create a stone golem, 42 to make the iron. This amount could be more than you would find in a small town and possibly a good chunk of those slaughtered to feed a larger town. If your in a major kingdom you won't run into this issue, but you may have to explain why your mass producing potential war assets. Also likely again to have competition for the PPE around a slaughter house, if not other mages than some entities (the reason I think slaughter houses would be warded). Peak activity also sounds easy but that is only if you GM is letting you go to the most dangerous point of a dangerous would at the time something is most likely to go wrong without throwning any kind of wrench into your plans (honestly i'd be disappointed if the GM just LET me set up shop on a nexus...)

and if you are talking about crushing the odd group of adventurers or village people sure they may not know, but its likely anything youd NEED an army of golems for would have knowledge or be able to find out how to handle them.

2.There is also many more robots that can be made in a similar amount of time when they have their infrastructure. Unless you have a large supply of Onyx, a bunch of people making bodies, and a way to recover hundred of PPE in a few hours as well as numerous mages who can cast create golem. If you can do that I have to ask why your bothering with golems when you could make scrolls of annihilation and hand them out to a death squad and just go explode enemy cities.

The point is that there are only a handful of places on the planet that HAVE that infrastructure.
Most places don't have robot factories. And all the trained technicians to run them. And all the materials to make the microchips, and optics, and nuclear power supplies, and e-clips, and energy weapons, and computers, and MDC alloys...
Unless your just handwaving away all the logistics and saying "Well of course they can just make as many robots as needed who cares"
Compared to that a supply of clay and onyx suddenly doesn't look all that hard to get.

You say that there are only a handful of places on the planet capable of making robots and staffing the appropriate technicians and that makes them rare and therefore incomparable to the easy of making golems. However how many robot factories do we know about on rifts earth compared to onyx mines? A quickie search on my phone says we have onyx here in America, but apparently the only three active mines are in foreign countries. Is a technician rarer than a mage? A mage with a 13th level spell? There may be only a handful of places on the planet with that infrastructure, but how out of every major power on earth can you name me those who DON'T have the infrastructure to produce robots or the equivalent (and lets ignore the difference between robots and power armor for this, because you really only needs a good power armor to kick a golem around). You say places that can make robots are rare, I have to ask how many mages can make golems? Who is providing the gems? If a bunch of mages can make golems and gems are plentiful...why is it such a rare secret to know how to kill a golem? It seems like in any military force of sufficient size (excluding MAYBE the coalition) that someone would be able to pipe up and say "My brothers sisters uncles cousin once fought these and he said..."

3. Every example of getting PPE easily i've seen has recomended abusing one spell, or things like "use your ley lines its easy" or "just make a lotta talismans". Ley lines and talismans have demerits that if used appopriately keep you from doing things like this unless you've managed to secure a solid base on a nexus or some such (a feat that shouldn't be a simple task) and likely your now using your golems just to hold that base in case something really bad pays a visit.

The simplest and most commonly use in actual play that I have seen is simply to use animal sacrifice. Slaughterhouses for example. Another player proposed breeding mice for mass sacrifice.

So your killing hundreds of lives for your magic, even if I normally don't have much aversion to the sacrifice spell I find the idea of breeding thousands of mice and then making a machine or something else to kill them all at once for their PPE to be more than a bit disturbing. And I'm pretty sure you could if you found a slaughter house willing to let you invoke magic on premises (one that's not warded to heck and back vs psychic and magical intrusion) they would charge you for the part of the animal you are taking. If they aren't something is wrong. But sure I can buy that's where you get your PPE, also what are you doing about the other mages competing for that source? Not saying it can't be done but seriously if your gonna try and "break" the game by building an army and insisting no one knows its weakness then you shouldn't have an easy time to accomplish it, work to earn that nigh invincible army (and then one mage gets upset you didn't invite him over for tea and suddenly the world knows your armies weakness, I mean SOMEONE is gonna spill the beans...its how the world works)

4. I actually had to double check, but ya they do have an IQ of 6 and can probably be taught how to use guns (i already put them in armor) but they still get NO BONUSES...i don't know about you but in the games i'm in thats a very very bad situation to be in.

two things there
1) that presumes that they do not get the bonuses for the skills they learn
2) in most games you don't really NEED all that much bonus... just use AoE weapons like an AGL.

1) Your assuming they get skills at all
2) this was said by me in the paragraph below

So over all the reasons a golem army is good is because
A) PLAYERS breaking the game for PPE
B) NO ONE can figure out how to kill them
C) you need a mage to make them but nothing else unless, go to D
D) you give your golems gear to make them more powerful

Honestly...if your going to make an army and equip them with MD gear then your better off using Zombies from the ritual, regen in 48 hours unless head is buried seperate or an exorcism is performed, more intelligent (by a smidge), cheaper (even without PPE "hacks" you can afford one as a decent level mage near a leyline, note thats NEAR a leyline not on a nexus), they have a -4 to hit with guns, but i wouldn't expect them or the golems to hit anyway, probably best to equip with grenade launchers or mini missile launchers. Only problem? people who don't like you disturbing the dead

Well, and you can only cast the spell once a month...

then lets go with mummies, and considering that this entire thread is about changing a rule of the game why not figure out a new zombie raising ritual while we are at it, not that anyone would be able to tell with how much people are determined to tell me there is not need for these spells to be changed and why they're fine as is. An argument which has nothing to do with this thread at all, once again...

If you don't mind a lack of range attacks mummies are even harder to kill as long as they aren't facing people with fire, though they lose out on the respawns

You can't say one moment that something is good because X is a secret in game and then the next throw all the in game secrets out the window cause "player knowledge" tell them how to perform X task

No I am saying that the idea that everyone will know how to kill off a Golem in universe is absurd. It is metagaming at its worst and usually a sign of a vengful/killer GM "oh yeah, the enemy knows all the secrets of how to defeat your forces"

They won't know the first time they meet one, or maybe even the first few, but if mages are raising armies of golems you can be sure that they will learn fast, that or die. I seriously doubt that ANY major power and most of the minor ones with magic users would take more than a a few encounters to figure out what they are and how to counter them. This isn't some great mystery of the megaverse, it may be a high level spell but not a major trade secret.

[Nightmartree]

Ah I just thought of the perfect thing to say about this arguing over whether golems would be broken if you removed the limiting cost of permanent sacrifice from them.

It doesn't matter.

This thread is about alternative costs to replace the permanent sacrifice, not about removing the thing entirely. So yay, yet again I've been arguing a pointless fight for no reason. The argument that the golem spell would be broken without a limit placed on it has nothing to do with this thread since the goal is swapping out the cost for one that people feel is fit, not removing them.

That said if you wanna continue discussing the potential issues or benefits of a golem army feel free to message me but this thread keeps getting sidetracked.

[Proseksword]

A cool-down would work best for me.

Onyx, spell-knowledge, MD weapons, robotics knowledge; these are all things that the printed works are ambiguous about the availability of, which are ultimately limited only by the Game Master. Arguing about it is an exercise in futility.

[guardiandashi]

I like the idea of a cooldown, but I could also see a compromise solution.

for instance if you cast it this way (explanation) there are no permanent penalties, but it causes temporary damage.
if you cast it again before the cooldown ends... then there is some permanent damage.
if you cast it again before the cooldown ends there is MORE and or more significant permanent damage, possibly even (attribute damage) if you push it hard enough.

[Nightmartree]

I like the idea of a cooldown, but I could also see a compromise solution.

for instance if you cast it this way (explanation) there are no permanent penalties, but it causes temporary damage.
if you cast it again before the cooldown ends... then there is some permanent damage.
if you cast it again before the cooldown ends there is MORE and or more significant permanent damage, possibly even (attribute damage) if you push it hard enough.

Kind of like "This spell uses a small fragment of the casters own lifeforce to act as the seed for the golems spirit. If this spell is used before the caster recovers his lifeforce, dire consequences result! -Magus Killmore of the Silver Serpent mage hall"

That could definetly work, would you say the temporary damage heals slower than normal? or maybe something like with the zombie where you need a full moon?

[Blue_Lion]

As a GM, I would allow a ritual where the sacrifice came from someone else. This would give a VERY compelling argument for cults and the like...

Or even ritual sacrifice where you kill the person you are taking the permanent sacrifice from taking all PPE or SDC for the spell permantly.
They big scary just got a little scarier.

[dragonfett]

As a GM, I would allow a ritual where the sacrifice came from someone else. This would give a VERY compelling argument for cults and the like...

Or even ritual sacrifice where you kill the person you are taking the permanent sacrifice from taking all PPE or SDC for the spell permantly.
They big scary just got a little scarier.

That too.