Werebeasts and other RCCs too.

[VooDu]

In Dark Conversions they do not list secondary skills or what skills you can take when you go up levels for weretigers and other werebeasts...should I use the rules from the original CB1? Also, can a werebeast take an OCC by not multi-classing? I know that it's an RCC so they have funky rules about which ones can take OCCs and when.

[drewkitty ~..~]

To say that RCCs have "funky rules" is an understatement of the total mishmash of the canon texts.
⁍ There are True RCCs like dragons, that have to have there race's RCC.
⁍ There are Races presented under the RCC label, like the True Atlanitians.
⁍ There are "monster races" that were imporeted from the PF setting whos racial skills are labeled as RCC skills, like were-people.
⁍ There are Races that are presented as RCCs, with a "way of life" RCC skills set attached to them. Not clear if the what powers/abilities are the race's or the RCC's.
⁍ There are PCCs labeled as RCCs (pre-RUE).
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Personally I would recomend that you look up the rifters 3&4 "The Children of the Moon" article. And read it over before deciding what you are going to do.
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Were-people are "monster races" that were imported from the PF setting. So they were not written up as a Player Character Race. A result of this is that they do not have secondary skills listed for them.

Based on the phrase that if allowed by the GM that the char should start at level one, I would let the player choose a Job OCC. ( This excludes any and all PCCs no matter what sort of labeling they had on them and magic classes. [Unless they want to give up their racial psi or magic powers to have a PCC or magic class.]) And that they have been living within the human/humanoid civilization long enough that they are able to control their baser instincts to hunt and kill. (this might just turn them into "Legitiment BusinessMen" , and have learned a different way to make a hunt and get that buisness deal that forfills the desire for the kill.)

Now if the player wants to change classes during char creation. Like they were wild were-people that 'got trained' in an Job OCC. Then I would have them roll on the NPC skills roll and have that as their pre-training level.

Note: this is if I was to use a rifts were-person, and not a PF or CotM were-person.
Personally all the W-Ps I've made have been CotM were-people.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't have Dark Conversions, or CB1o, but...
WB 20 Canda has a Werewolf (Loup Garou pg165-7) and they do list secondary skills.
WB 1 Vampire Kingdoms (original) has the Werejaguars (pg172-3) and they do list secondary skills. (almost a C&P job and aspects are implied to work for other werecreatures IMHO)

Not sure about WB1:VKr or Vampire SB, or other potential werebeasts getting a Rifts writeup in a WB/SB might have to say. Zenith Moon Wrapers (WB12/30) could be mistaken for werewolf, but aren't technically werebeasts (and they have secondary skills). There is also something in WB21 Splym Dim. Market that is like a werebeast, but I don't recall off hand the name and such.

But if a RCC (or OCC or PCC) does not list secondary skills, then the character just doesn't get them. In the old Robotech RPG (1E from the 1980s-90s) no character had any secondary skills, because secondary skills where not part of the line (and not really necessary given the number of available skills and "other/related" skill slots available). Generally though an RCC will state if it can take an OCC.

[Library Ogre]

In Dark Conversions they do not list secondary skills or what skills you can take when you go up levels for weretigers and other werebeasts...should I use the rules from the original CB1? Also, can a werebeast take an OCC by not multi-classing? I know that it's an RCC so they have funky rules about which ones can take OCCs and when.

Personally, I don't see a problem with a were-person using an OCC within their ability set... no crazies or borgs, obviously, but most Scholars & Adventurers, Men of Magic, and Psychics should be fine. However, I would say that they either use the werebeast XP table or the one dictated by their class, whichever is more expensive.

[The Beast]

In Dark Conversions they do not list secondary skills or what skills you can take when you go up levels for weretigers and other werebeasts...should I use the rules from the original CB1? Also, can a werebeast take an OCC by not multi-classing? I know that it's an RCC so they have funky rules about which ones can take OCCs and when.

Personally, I don't see a problem with a were-person using an OCC within their ability set... no crazies or borgs, obviously, but most Scholars & Adventurers, Men of Magic, and Psychics should be fine. However, I would say that they either use the werebeast XP table or the one dictated by their class, whichever is more expensive.

I agree.

[Mack]

In Dark Conversions they do not list secondary skills or what skills you can take when you go up levels for weretigers and other werebeasts...should I use the rules from the original CB1? Also, can a werebeast take an OCC by not multi-classing? I know that it's an RCC so they have funky rules about which ones can take OCCs and when.

Personally, I don't see a problem with a were-person using an OCC within their ability set... no crazies or borgs, obviously, but most Scholars & Adventurers, Men of Magic, and Psychics should be fine. However, I would say that they either use the werebeast XP table or the one dictated by their class, whichever is more expensive.

Not so sure about Psychic & Magic classes. That could get out of hand. Would largely depend on the game's power level.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Were-people already have racial magic and psionics. So allowing them to have a magic OCC or PCC would be unbalancing unless the player gives something up.

Sort of like how the Psi-hounds get human type psionics, they don't get their racial psi-abilities.

[Axelmania]

I never noticed this change VooDu pointed out. While I'm sure there happened for all the werecreatures, will analyze this for just the CB192 / DB100 werewolves.

One thing we should note here is that while they lost their secondary skills, their RCC skills have been increased. So it may be unbalancing to give them back the secondary skills while also giving the expanded skill list. I'd necessitate choosing one or the other.

Examples:

instead of speaking "American or Euro" they now speak "American, Old French and Euro"
gained Track Humanoids (although Track Animals got reduced by 10%
gained 2 espionage skills
gained 2 wilderness skills
gained 2 WP
gained 2 pilot
gained 2 technical or domestic

*Prowl and Swim look like it was added, but actually were from a fixed 80/50 under natural abilities to +25%/+5% under skills

In place of 7 secondary skills, the werewolf has 13 more skills than it previously did.

the two extra at 4/8/12/15 (extra eight total) would bring the original total to 15, sure, but they would start at lower levels, doesn't really seem worth it.

I initially wrote "and lack bonuses" but that'd be wrong, werewolves apparently do get bonuses for their secondary skills if they are Rogue or Wilderness.

The largest demographic for complaint would I think be those who would want to select physical skills. The next being those who wanted some Rogue skills, or someone who wanted to be a "language master" or "weapons master" and spend all their secondary skills in one area rather than just 2 per category as Dark Conversions has changed to.

I see no problems with werecreatures acquiring an OCC if they fulfill the attribute requirements and can find a teacher.

Were-people already have racial magic and psionics. So allowing them to have a magic OCC or PCC would be unbalancing unless the player gives something up.

Noro start with racial psionics, is it unbalancing to allow them such OCCs without sacrificing them?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Were-people already have racial magic and psionics. So allowing them to have a magic OCC or PCC would be unbalancing unless the player gives something up.

Noro start with racial psionics, is it unbalancing to allow them such OCCs without sacrificing them?

Seams like you didn't read my 1st post.
If you had paid attention to what I said there you might of not lifted you foot too high.

Since the Noro can have Job OCCs right and fine, it puts them in line with core concepts I based my comments on.

If you are unfamiller with the meaning of the term 'would be unbalancing' (and it's many paraphrasings), it means that most of the time such combinations are used by munchkins to make a character that is too powerful for the game.

Warning: Condescending. Mack

[Axelmania]

Pretty sure a Promethean Temporal Wizard could beat a Werewolf Temporal Wizard easily enough. Werebeasts really aren't the route you go for munchkinism. It's great survivability for random encounters, but any arch-villain will get some silver after you.

[Library Ogre]

In Dark Conversions they do not list secondary skills or what skills you can take when you go up levels for weretigers and other werebeasts...should I use the rules from the original CB1? Also, can a werebeast take an OCC by not multi-classing? I know that it's an RCC so they have funky rules about which ones can take OCCs and when.

Personally, I don't see a problem with a were-person using an OCC within their ability set... no crazies or borgs, obviously, but most Scholars & Adventurers, Men of Magic, and Psychics should be fine. However, I would say that they either use the werebeast XP table or the one dictated by their class, whichever is more expensive.

Not so sure about Psychic & Magic classes. That could get out of hand. Would largely depend on the game's power level.

They're vulnerable enough to different things that I'm not too concerned about it. Scary against bandits, until someone pulls out the tableware and has the borg punch you with it.

[kaid]

The werejaguars from the last vampires source book shows that at least some can have and use actual spell casting magic. As for OCC that is largely a GM call most RCC especially in more recent books states specifically if they can take an OCC and if so which types. For a lot of were beasts they are not people who become animals but more of animals who can turn into people. So they are in general a lot more primal and less interested in learning professions and occupations than one would expect.

That said they are vulnerable to enough fairly common items and have difficulty wearing much in the way of additional protection the generally are not that overpowering on a campaign.

[kaid]

In Dark Conversions they do not list secondary skills or what skills you can take when you go up levels for weretigers and other werebeasts...should I use the rules from the original CB1? Also, can a werebeast take an OCC by not multi-classing? I know that it's an RCC so they have funky rules about which ones can take OCCs and when.

Personally, I don't see a problem with a were-person using an OCC within their ability set... no crazies or borgs, obviously, but most Scholars & Adventurers, Men of Magic, and Psychics should be fine. However, I would say that they either use the werebeast XP table or the one dictated by their class, whichever is more expensive.

Not so sure about Psychic & Magic classes. That could get out of hand. Would largely depend on the game's power level.

They're vulnerable enough to different things that I'm not too concerned about it. Scary against bandits, until someone pulls out the tableware and has the borg punch you with it.

Especially with a lot of the new NG2 power armors that are heavily aimed at fighting supernatural stuff so a lot of things have guns loaded with silver/wood special ammo which wrecks were beasts.

[Mack]

There's a Were-Jaguar (or Panther?) NPC in Arzno. I don't have my book handy, but does she have any skills beyond those of the RCC?

[42dragon]

One thing I have noticed, is that the were-jaguars from rVK2 appear to be able to take equivalent OCC's on top of the race similar to the Rifter Tribes of the Moon. However if you look closely their racial stats and abilities tend to more closely match the Were's from the TotM. If you then look at the Were's stats and abilities from Dark Conversions they are more powerful.

To me this seems to indicate:
Were-creatures from DC: RCC only as a supernatural predator
Were-creatures from TotM: Race that can take an OCC

This seems to make a happy compromise. As the stronger ones from DC could get munchkin real quick with a full OCC added.

Average Were-tiger from DC: Supernatural PS 40, PP 24, PE 18, ME 18 (claw attack 3d6 + supernatural strength punch)
Average Were-tiger from TotM: Regular PS 28, PP 17, PE 14, ME 14 (4d6+2 SD + PS bonus, can hurt creatures that are only harmed by magical attacks)

[VooDu]

It seems to be GMs call for the most part. The other werebeast NPCs like in Arzno are just straight up werebeasts with no OCC. If you decide with the RCC in Dark Conversions route what do you do about advancement? They don't get any chance for additional skills once they gain levels. That seems a little off. Adding a full OCC can give them lots of skills but they are not crazy in all the stuff on Rifts Earth...Weretiger Cyberknight or Shifter or Wilderness Scout or whatever you like as long as they meet OCC requirements could be fun to play.

[42dragon]

Yes, maybe I mis-labeled that a bit.
Were-creatures from DC: NPC supernatural predator or with GM approval RCC supernatural predator.
The key in either is the supernatural predator, their HP's go up, their skill % go up. They are singularly focused on being what they are a predator. They aren't really trying to advance and branch out.

Sure what you suggest would be fun for the player. A mostly immune to damage creature with minimum +8 to strike, parry, dodge before you start adding skills and Cyber-knight bonuses, that does 9d6MD with claws. Once you make adjustments for HTH combat skills and bonuses you are also looking at 8 attack per melee at level 1 in hybrid form. If you are in an already high powered campaign, sure work with the GM and have at it. With GM approval anything goes.

As a general ruling, I would use what I wrote above as a baseline compromise.

[kaid]

One big hindrance of were creatures is most can't or won't wear modern armor as they like going into their animal form for combat. While were creatures have some insane regeneration abilities and strong immunities if you hit them with stuff they are vulnerable with they die pretty easily. Even if allowed some other OCC if a GM is willing they are still not going to be up in the big leagues for durability compared to high end power armor/dragon hatchlings and things like that.

[eliakon]

One big hindrance of were creatures is most can't or won't wear modern armor as they like going into their animal form for combat. While were creatures have some insane regeneration abilities and strong immunities if you hit them with stuff they are vulnerable with they die pretty easily. Even if allowed some other OCC if a GM is willing they are still not going to be up in the big leagues for durability compared to high end power armor/dragon hatchlings and things like that.

They can wear all sorts of armor. In their hybrid form (their 'battle form' basically) they are still humanoid. There is no end to the armor options there.
The issue with comparing them to a dragon hatchling or power armor is that those are both apples to oranges comparisons.
The DH doesn't usually get an OCC, which was the entire point of the discussion. The power level is not just the Were itself, but the were+ OCC. Especially as mentioned a mage or psychic. Which would mean that you get a very very tough mage or psi. The Mage becomes a threat for example since they have a huge array of 'fall back' options besides their magic, lots of APM to cast with, and can already ignore a lot of the things often used to combat mages. And if they use self-buffs...
Similarly Power Armor is not a character, it is a tool that the character uses. Anyone with the right skills can use a Power Armor suit so the argument that a particular combination isn't as powerful as a top end PA suit doesn't really hold much water. Especially considering the cost of repairs for a PA, or the skill slots needed to use it properly, or any of the other factors that crop up with their use.