Disarm a question to put to rest

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Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Vynlanesh »

Does anyone know for certainty if the disarm bonus is added to strike or parry checks if your going for a disarm. Me and my group are having a bit of a disagreement on it. My interruption along with some of my friends is it tells us that it is suppose to since it says and can be used as in place of dodge, or parry, or can be done as an attack/strike. To me that very easily stakes that if you say your going for a disarm as strike you add the disarm bonus to strike. Cause otherwise Disarming is very pointless cause anyone could easily dodge or parry that.

So if someone could help put this to rest especially if we could get an answer from an administrator even though that's doubtful. It would just be real helpful to get some feedback on this. I don't mind if me and some of my other friends have the wrong interruption. I just don't like when an argument is made about someone reading it that way, which derails from the game and for us to get accused of cheating. Thank you to all who answer for your time and consideration on this matter.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by dragonfett »

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=79150

Question #9 (or just press Control+F and type in "disarm" in the search box and this will be the 6th mention of "disarm")

Question: Is a character's bonus to Strike added on to bonuses for offensive maneuvers, such as Disarm, Pull Punch, or a Hold?
So if a character has a bonus of +6 to Strike and +2 to Pull Punch, and attempts a Pull Punch, what would the total bonus be
Answer: Each combat move is considered a seperate category and only uses those bonuses applicable.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by dragonfett »

Don't feel bad about not being able to find the FAQs. I went to the company's home page which was where they used to be before the front page was redesigned. It took me several minutes trying to remember what happened to them before I remembered that I had seen they were moved/posted under the Across the Megaverse section.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Natasha »

Vynlanesh wrote:Does anyone know for certainty if the disarm bonus is added to strike or parry checks if your going for a disarm. Me and my group are having a bit of a disagreement on it. My interruption along with some of my friends is it tells us that it is suppose to since it says and can be used as in place of dodge, or parry, or can be done as an attack/strike. To me that very easily stakes that if you say your going for a disarm as strike you add the disarm bonus to strike. Cause otherwise Disarming is very pointless cause anyone could easily dodge or parry that.

So if someone could help put this to rest especially if we could get an answer from an administrator even though that's doubtful. It would just be real helpful to get some feedback on this. I don't mind if me and some of my other friends have the wrong interruption. I just don't like when an argument is made about someone reading it that way, which derails from the game and for us to get accused of cheating. Thank you to all who answer for your time and consideration on this matter.

The FAQ answer doesn't clear it up for me; perhaps it's my English. I think it says that you don't add Disarm bonuses to anything.

I've seen it either way. But in the games where it wasn't and where Strike/Parry/Dodge bonuses get quite large, Disarm was pointless.

If I recall correctly, Ninjas and Superspies handles it better because if you're good at disarming, then you're about as good at it as a striker is at striking.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Shark_Force »

disarming is a far more powerful maneuver that would reasonably be much harder to pull off.

having a much lower bonus sounds like a feature, not a bug.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Natasha »

But if it's rendered useless there is no point to the rule.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Vynlanesh wrote:Does anyone know for certainty if the disarm bonus is added to strike or parry checks if your going for a disarm. Me and my group are having a bit of a disagreement on it. My interruption along with some of my friends is it tells us that it is suppose to since it says and can be used as in place of dodge, or parry, or can be done as an attack/strike. To me that very easily stakes that if you say your going for a disarm as strike you add the disarm bonus to strike. Cause otherwise Disarming is very pointless cause anyone could easily dodge or parry that.

So if someone could help put this to rest especially if we could get an answer from an administrator even though that's doubtful. It would just be real helpful to get some feedback on this. I don't mind if me and some of my other friends have the wrong interruption. I just don't like when an argument is made about someone reading it that way, which derails from the game and for us to get accused of cheating. Thank you to all who answer for your time and consideration on this matter.

Hand to Hand Bonuses are categorized and only stack with like bonuses with one exception: PP attribute bonus

Auto-Dodge Bonuses only stack specifically with Auto-Dodge bonuses and PP Bonus, regular Dodge Bonuses do not count for example.

So Disarm would be any listed Disarm bonuses Plus PP Bonus.

Of course a GM could house rule it otherwise.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Natasha wrote:But if it's rendered useless there is no point to the rule.


useless how? if you've got +2 to disarm as compared to +6 to dodge, the dodge trades one of your attacks for a single enemy attack while the disarm will weaken or even completely stop (practically speaking) all future enemy attacks (and should completely stop a single enemy attack) and may empower your own if it works and it really isn't that much less likely to work.

unless you have an absolutely ridiculous dodge bonus, i could definitely see disarm being useful in the right situation.

it's risky, but has a tremendous payoff. that isn't useless at all.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Eagle »

PP bonuses don't appear to get added to the roll to disarm. And the maneuver only inconveniences the opponent until they pick the gun back up.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by dragonfett »

Eagle wrote:PP bonuses don't appear to get added to the roll to disarm. And the maneuver only inconveniences the opponent until they pick the gun back up.


Where does it say that all disarmed weapons immediately fall the ground?
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by The Beast »

RUE, page 345 wrote:...Disarm does not give the weapon to the character making the disarm move. True, the item is forced out of the victim's grasp, but it is either knocked away or falls to the ground...
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Axelmania »

I believe you would add the bonus when using it as an offensive maneuver, but you would not add it when doing a defensive disarm.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Natasha »

Shark_Force wrote:
Natasha wrote:But if it's rendered useless there is no point to the rule.


useless how? if you've got +2 to disarm as compared to +6 to dodge, the dodge trades one of your attacks for a single enemy attack while the disarm will weaken or even completely stop (practically speaking) all future enemy attacks (and should completely stop a single enemy attack) and may empower your own if it works and it really isn't that much less likely to work.

unless you have an absolutely ridiculous dodge bonus, i could definitely see disarm being useful in the right situation.

it's risky, but has a tremendous payoff. that isn't useless at all.

The most common way, in my experience, is that while you can make a called strike with a sword and stab somebody in the face and get all your Strike and P.P. bonuses, you can't gash their hand with the same bonuses. You end up wasting all your attacks trying to disarm your opponent when you could just cut them to shreds instead. The situation is similar on defence.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Shark_Force »

- disarm someone at the edge of something (cliff, rooftop, bridge, active volcano, etc)
- disarm someone while they are unable to move (carpet of adhesion, various holds, super TK holding them in the air, etc)
- disarm someone when recovering a weapon would be difficult for other reasons (in a swamp, dense jungle, during a sandstorm, in a close-up fight where there isn't room to conveniently pick up a weapon, magically blinded, etc).
- disarm someone when you have an ally to pick up the disarmed weapon before they can get to it.
- disarm someone so that you stand between the person and their weapon.
- disarm someone at the end of a round when you have attacks left and they don't, or when you are likely to win initiative, or in the middle of a round where they are denied their next action for a variety of reasons, followed up by an attack to move them away (body flip/throw, for example).


i can think of plenty of ways to make use of it, and have used some of them. if you can't ever get even one single extra melee action worth of value out of it, then you should probably talk to your GM and ask them why it is that you can only ever disarm a person so that their weapon is perfectly conveniently placed for them to pick it up with zero difficulty every single time. or look for better opportunities. i mean, you're not *always* going to be fighting on a bridge or something like that, but it should happen sometimes, and that's when you use it.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Natasha »

The problem, in my opinion, is that the rules treat a disarm fundamentally different from a called strike. I think that a disarm should be the result of a successful called strike to the hand.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Eagle »

Shark_Force wrote:- disarm someone at the edge of something (cliff, rooftop, bridge, active volcano, etc)
- disarm someone while they are unable to move (carpet of adhesion, various holds, super TK holding them in the air, etc)
- disarm someone when recovering a weapon would be difficult for other reasons (in a swamp, dense jungle, during a sandstorm, in a close-up fight where there isn't room to conveniently pick up a weapon, magically blinded, etc).
- disarm someone when you have an ally to pick up the disarmed weapon before they can get to it.
- disarm someone so that you stand between the person and their weapon.
- disarm someone at the end of a round when you have attacks left and they don't, or when you are likely to win initiative, or in the middle of a round where they are denied their next action for a variety of reasons, followed up by an attack to move them away (body flip/throw, for example).


i can think of plenty of ways to make use of it, and have used some of them. if you can't ever get even one single extra melee action worth of value out of it, then you should probably talk to your GM and ask them why it is that you can only ever disarm a person so that their weapon is perfectly conveniently placed for them to pick it up with zero difficulty every single time. or look for better opportunities. i mean, you're not *always* going to be fighting on a bridge or something like that, but it should happen sometimes, and that's when you use it.


If I'm fighting at the edge of a volcano, I'm just pushing the son of a ***** into it. Screw disarming him.

Fact is, Palladium includes rules for a lot of cool maneuvers. But the maneuver section is just copied and pasted from some off-the-cuff judgment call that Siembieda made once back in 1986 and has never revisited. Most of them just don't work. The penalties are too steep for what minimal gain you get.

Look at having a Cyber-Knight with a different color sword. Oh, you want an all white sword? Something that has zero game effect at all? It takes an entire combat round where you can do nothing else, every time. Because reasons.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Eagle wrote:PP bonuses don't appear to get added to the roll to disarm. And the maneuver only inconveniences the opponent until they pick the gun back up.

Why wouldn't they though? It is considered a strike/parry depending on the context. I know it is not specified specifically, but it seems like it would apply given that Auto-Dodge benefits (yes I know specifically called out) even though the PP description only lists strike/parry/dodge.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

I always applied PP bonuses to everything that was similar to a Strike, Parry, or Dodge.
Don't think it's RAW, and it may not be RAI, but it'd the only way that makes sense to me.
And I doubt I'm the only one.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by The Beast »

Natasha wrote:The problem, in my opinion, is that the rules treat a disarm fundamentally different from a called strike. I think that a disarm should be the result of a successful called strike to the hand.


I find myself liking this over how Disarm is currently handled.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Natasha wrote:The problem, in my opinion, is that the rules treat a disarm fundamentally different from a called strike. I think that a disarm should be the result of a successful called strike to the hand.


So a simple basket hilt makes you utterly immune to disarm then?

A lot of classical/real disarms have nothing to do with striking someones hand - most ofmthem, in fact, as coming off the centerline enough to strike at someones hand would basically be comitting suicide.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Natasha »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So a simple basket hilt makes you utterly immune to disarm then?

A lot of classical/real disarms have nothing to do with striking someones hand - most ofmthem, in fact, as coming off the centerline enough to strike at someones hand would basically be comitting suicide.

Meh. The penalty for called strikes is the Game Master's discretion.

I don't have any interest in trying to point up reality when discussing Palladium combat because the latter does not reflect the former.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Natasha wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So a simple basket hilt makes you utterly immune to disarm then?

A lot of classical/real disarms have nothing to do with striking someones hand - most ofmthem, in fact, as coming off the centerline enough to strike at someones hand would basically be comitting suicide.

Meh. The penalty for called strikes is the Game Master's discretion.

I don't have any interest in trying to point up reality when discussing Palladium combat because the latter does not reflect the former.


Except thats exatcly what you did when you equated disarm to “a called shot to the hand” (which wouldnt gurantee a disarm anyway, given that youve got MDC protection on your hand in Rifts).

You cant have it both ways.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

The Beast wrote:
Natasha wrote:The problem, in my opinion, is that the rules treat a disarm fundamentally different from a called strike. I think that a disarm should be the result of a successful called strike to the hand.


I find myself liking this over how Disarm is currently handled.

Don't Called Strikes now (under RUE) take up extra melee actions though? Or is that just for ranged attacks. Though I'm not even sure if called shots are possible in mlee/hth as I only recall seeing it in connection to ranged actions.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Natasha »

ShadowLogan wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Natasha wrote:The problem, in my opinion, is that the rules treat a disarm fundamentally different from a called strike. I think that a disarm should be the result of a successful called strike to the hand.


I find myself liking this over how Disarm is currently handled.

Don't Called Strikes now (under RUE) take up extra melee actions though? Or is that just for ranged attacks. Though I'm not even sure if called shots are possible in mlee/hth as I only recall seeing it in connection to ranged actions.

For me, yes, I've stepped beyond RAW the moment I discard Disarm as a discrete combat action.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Natasha wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So a simple basket hilt makes you utterly immune to disarm then?

A lot of classical/real disarms have nothing to do with striking someones hand - most ofmthem, in fact, as coming off the centerline enough to strike at someones hand would basically be comitting suicide.

Meh. The penalty for called strikes is the Game Master's discretion.

I don't have any interest in trying to point up reality when discussing Palladium combat because the latter does not reflect the former.


Except thats exatcly what you did when you equated disarm to “a called shot to the hand” (which wouldnt gurantee a disarm anyway, given that youve got MDC protection on your hand in Rifts).

You cant have it both ways.

What I am talking about is saying "real combat doesn't work that way". That statement is almost unilaterally true of Palladium combat.

Success is determined by the roll (and the penalty to success is determined by the Game Master). The cinematics is up to the Game Master.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Eagle wrote:If I'm fighting at the edge of a volcano, I'm just pushing the son of a ***** into it. Screw disarming him.

Fact is, Palladium includes rules for a lot of cool maneuvers. But the maneuver section is just copied and pasted from some off-the-cuff judgment call that Siembieda made once back in 1986 and has never revisited. Most of them just don't work. The penalties are too steep for what minimal gain you get.

Look at having a Cyber-Knight with a different color sword. Oh, you want an all white sword? Something that has zero game effect at all? It takes an entire combat round where you can do nothing else, every time. Because reasons.


generally speaking, i presume you can move a weapon further than a person. 10 feet is a long way to launch a person, but it's fairly possible if you knock a weapon out of someone's hand (though i wouldn't say guaranteed).

and again, the minimal gain is largely a problem with your GM. with disarm, you can knock the weapon away from your opponent. if the weapon is so conveniently placed that it has no negative impact on your opponent whatsoever, that's because your GM ruled that way. nothing about knocking their weapon away inherently implies that it is immediately accessible to them without difficulty.

as to the psi-sword... so what? if i want a pink fireball spell as a ley line walker, i don't have that option at all. if i'm a headhunter and i want my laser rifle to shoot yellow beams, i don't have the option there either. frankly, the cyber knight is doing pretty well in terms of options that way.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Eagle »

Shark_Force wrote:
Eagle wrote:If I'm fighting at the edge of a volcano, I'm just pushing the son of a ***** into it. Screw disarming him.

Fact is, Palladium includes rules for a lot of cool maneuvers. But the maneuver section is just copied and pasted from some off-the-cuff judgment call that Siembieda made once back in 1986 and has never revisited. Most of them just don't work. The penalties are too steep for what minimal gain you get.

Look at having a Cyber-Knight with a different color sword. Oh, you want an all white sword? Something that has zero game effect at all? It takes an entire combat round where you can do nothing else, every time. Because reasons.


generally speaking, i presume you can move a weapon further than a person. 10 feet is a long way to launch a person, but it's fairly possible if you knock a weapon out of someone's hand (though i wouldn't say guaranteed).

and again, the minimal gain is largely a problem with your GM. with disarm, you can knock the weapon away from your opponent. if the weapon is so conveniently placed that it has no negative impact on your opponent whatsoever, that's because your GM ruled that way. nothing about knocking their weapon away inherently implies that it is immediately accessible to them without difficulty.

as to the psi-sword... so what? if i want a pink fireball spell as a ley line walker, i don't have that option at all. if i'm a headhunter and i want my laser rifle to shoot yellow beams, i don't have the option there either. frankly, the cyber knight is doing pretty well in terms of options that way.


My point was that you had to come up with some pretty ridiculous situations where disarm would be useful. The reason you had to do that was because the Palladium combat system needs almost completely rewritten. I've never once seen anyone attempt a disarm in a Palladium game. This is with a group of roleplaying vets who have no problem using maneuvers in other games. It's not that they don't understand how to use it. They understand perfectly. They don't use disarm because disarm sucks.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by eliakon »

I am not following why a disarm is not useful.
Stopping to pick up the weapon means that they are now out of position, kneeling or the like, possibly with their back turned to me... and that assumes that it only costs them 1 action to pick up the weapon and that they did not have to spend a turn (or more) looking around to find where the weapon went after I disarmed them of it.

And in the most obvious simple case if I have 1 more APM then they do...
just use a disarm at the end of the round, then my next action to take their weapon. Now I have both weapons.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by dragonfett »

My character had used disarm in a game last night.
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Re: Disarm a question to put to rest

Unread post by Axelmania »

Eagle wrote:Palladium includes rules for a lot of cool maneuvers. But the maneuver section is just copied and pasted from some off-the-cuff judgment call that Siembieda made once back in 1986 and has never revisited. Most of them just don't work. The penalties are too steep for what minimal gain you get.

Look at having a Cyber-Knight with a different color sword. Oh, you want an all white sword? Something that has zero game effect at all? It takes an entire combat round where you can do nothing else, every time. Because reasons.

There is a very good reason for this.
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