Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

[slade2501]

By jove, jetpacks and hoverbikes are sorely underrated. Jetpacks are a terrible way to go cross country or for long distance travel, but in the short term they offer incredible advantages.
I mean, just think about it. for 50,000 credits you can turn a human being into a 120 mile per hour 800 mile range unit. With up to a mile flight ceiling. at 1 mile, the average human would never even see or hear a human sized object traveling at that speed. even radar would have a hard time tracking that as a human sized object has VERY little radar return.

then consider the tactical aspects. 120 mph is a very fast escape speed. You could quickly outrun any kind of humanoid on foot or even most ground vehicles. flying into any kind of cloud cover would make you invisible. you could easily maneuver behind cover to block enemy fire.

The disadvantages of jetpacks: low cargo, needs fuel (the nuclear option is crazy expensive). Huge heat signature (shows right up on thermal vision).

Its the same with hoverbikes, except they need to be mounted and have more cargo space.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've always been a big fan of jetpacks as gear.
It's a vehicle that you can wear while inside another vehicle.
You can take it on a dungeoncrawl.
They're awesome.

[The Beast]

I've always been a big fan of jetpacks as gear.
It's a vehicle that you can wear while inside another vehicle.
You can take it on a dungeoncrawl.
They're awesome.

Except when you're at the wind farm.

[dreicunan]

By jove, jetpacks and hoverbikes are sorely underrated. Jetpacks are a terrible way to go cross country or for long distance travel, but in the short term they offer incredible advantages.
I mean, just think about it. for 50,000 credits you can turn a human being into a 120 mile per hour 800 mile range unit. With up to a mile flight ceiling. at 1 mile, the average human would never even see or hear a human sized object traveling at that speed. even radar would have a hard time tracking that as a human sized object has VERY little radar return.

then consider the tactical aspects. 120 mph is a very fast escape speed. You could quickly outrun any kind of humanoid on foot or even most ground vehicles. flying into any kind of cloud cover would make you invisible. you could easily maneuver behind cover to block enemy fire.

The disadvantages of jetpacks: low cargo, needs fuel (the nuclear option is crazy expensive). Huge heat signature (shows right up on thermal vision).

Its the same with hoverbikes, except they need to be mounted and have more cargo space.

If you want to avoid the thermal issue and have the funds and access, then get a grav pack from Phase World (only 150,000 for an e-clip model or 550,000 for a ten year nuclear version) and fly at 200 mph (or mach 1 in space!).

[Axelmania]

Just picturing the poor commoners on Rifts Earth's reaction to "only 150,000"

[dreicunan]

Just picturing the poor commoners on Rifts Earth's reaction to "only 150,000"

As opposed to their reaction to only 38,000 for a wilks jet pack - 50,000 for the electric version?

[glitterboy2098]

Considering the grav pack is antimatter powered I suspect that the price would be considered cheap. Breach the powerplant on that thing and you could level most of a small city in the ensuing explosion.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Considering the grav pack is antimatter powered I suspect that the price would be considered cheap. Breach the powerplant on that thing and you could level most of a small city in the ensuing explosion.

I wouldnt think itd do any more than an anti-matter Cruise Missile.

[dreicunan]

Considering the grav pack is antimatter powered I suspect that the price would be considered cheap. Breach the powerplant on that thing and you could level most of a small city in the ensuing explosion.

My memory may be rusty: where does it say that? It doesn't mention antimatter at all that I can find on pages 126-127.

Catching my own error here, using an e-clip is only an option if you jury-rig it. It is a battery that is the 150,000 model.

[Mack]

There's an eclip powered Jet Pack for CS Special Ops found in CWC. Always thought it would make for a great "parachute" for a Sky Cycle pilot.

[Hotrod]

If you want to avoid the thermal issue and have the funds and access, then get a grav pack from Phase World (only 150,000 for an e-clip model or 550,000 for a ten year nuclear version) and fly at 200 mph (or mach 1 in space!).

Mach 1 is the speed of sound. There is no sound in space, so how does that work?

[Hotrod]

The disadvantages of jetpacks: low cargo, needs fuel (the nuclear option is crazy expensive). Huge heat signature (shows right up on thermal vision).

Considering that it's transportation you wear, cargo is an odd factor for comparing to vehicles one rides upon. It's analogous to considering the cargo capacity of a pair of skis. As for heat signatures, that's true, and it's also true of just about everything that does powered flight.

Noise, on the other hand, is probably a discriminating factor. Jets are loud. I wonder how people who use jet packs avoid going deaf?

[dragonfett]

The disadvantages of jetpacks: low cargo, needs fuel (the nuclear option is crazy expensive). Huge heat signature (shows right up on thermal vision).

Considering that it's transportation you wear, cargo is an odd factor for comparing to vehicles one rides upon. It's analogous to considering the cargo capacity of a pair of skis. As for heat signatures, that's true, and it's also true of just about everything that does powered flight.

Noise, on the other hand, is probably a discriminating factor. Jets are loud. I wonder how people who use jet packs avoid going deaf?

Probably the same way jet pilots do, ear protection.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Anyone in environmental armor has pretty good ear protection built in. Not the absolute bestest, obviously, because it doesn't protect against the Boom Gun, but a jetpack probably isn't any worse than being a SAMAS pilot, with those giant engines right behind your head.

[dreicunan]

If you want to avoid the thermal issue and have the funds and access, then get a grav pack from Phase World (only 150,000 for an e-clip model or 550,000 for a ten year nuclear version) and fly at 200 mph (or mach 1 in space!).

Mach 1 is the speed of sound. There is no sound in space, so how does that work?

In the Palladium Megaverse, apparently there is sound in space; this isn't the only reference to sppeds in space based on the Mach scale. They likely mean it as 700pmh, however, based on several of the powers in HU.

[slade2501]

If you want to avoid the thermal issue and have the funds and access, then get a grav pack from Phase World (only 150,000 for an e-clip model or 550,000 for a ten year nuclear version) and fly at 200 mph (or mach 1 in space!).

Mach 1 is the speed of sound. There is no sound in space, so how does that work?

In the Palladium Megaverse, apparently there is sound in space; this isn't the only reference to sppeds in space based on the Mach scale. They likely mean it as 700pmh, however, based on several of the powers in HU.

also no rpg from palladium has ever gotten actual space physics right. In space, if you get up to a speed and turn the engine off you dont ever slow down unless you apply a counter thrust force to slow yourself down. then you get into speed of light, relativity, etc. palladium uses the cinematic or star wars view of space as a way to tell a tale, not an actual factual consideration.

[kaid]

There's an eclip powered Jet Pack for CS Special Ops found in CWC. Always thought it would make for a great "parachute" for a Sky Cycle pilot.

Yes I assumed most sky cycle pilots probably sport something like that. Pretty useful for other low altitude rocket bikes or hover bikes to punch free of an upcoming wreck.

[Hotrod]

There's an eclip powered Jet Pack for CS Special Ops found in CWC. Always thought it would make for a great "parachute" for a Sky Cycle pilot.

Yes I assumed most sky cycle pilots probably sport something like that. Pretty useful for other low altitude rocket bikes or hover bikes to punch free of an upcoming wreck.

The Nazi propaganda video in the "The Rocketeer" comes to mind, too. Giving a platoon of grunts that kind of mobility, even if you did nothing to upgrade their weapons/armor, would be a tremendous upgrade. The gasoline-powered Falcon 300 costs 30k; you could equip a platoon of 30 grunts with jet packs for the cost of one new original-model Samson power armor (~900k). The Samson can run a little faster than the platoon can fly, but the platoon can fly too high for the Samson to hit them.

Yeah, it seems like some North America power should be basing their whole military on this.

[glitterboy2098]

on the otherhand, flying infantry is a niche weapon for strategic/theater redeployment.. trying to use flight during a tactical battle has flaws, as schlock mercenary points out.

[dragonfett]

on the otherhand, flying infantry is a niche weapon for strategic/theater redeployment.. trying to use flight during a tactical battle has flaws, as schlock mercenary points out.

Perhaps, if they stay in the air for too long. But if they made short hops or jumps, such as say over a wall surrounding a city, suddenly city defenders have to divert their attention from the outside to the inside. If done properly, it could prove to be a valuable distraction for the invading army.

[slade2501]

skeet also dont fly at 120mph, dodge, shoot back or provide close air support.

[Hotrod]

skeet also dont fly at 120mph, dodge, shoot back or provide close air support.

Kiowa pilots routinely got into firefights with insurgents on the ground in Iraq. They generally won, partly because of their firepower and partly because they were small, nimble, and fast.

[Natasha]

Obviously, much depends on the aircraft vs. anti-aircraft capabilities.

[eliakon]

on the otherhand, flying infantry is a niche weapon for strategic/theater redeployment.. trying to use flight during a tactical battle has flaws, as schlock mercenary points out.

The Skeet comment is cute...
...but in the world of Rifts it is pretty much irrelivent.
In the Schlock world most infantry weapons can one-shot anyone in most forms of armor. AND the flying armor in question was very low profile armor at that.
In the world of Rifts though?
In Rifts even medium EBA can survive a direct hit or two (or more) from the main gun of a heavy armor unit...

The rules for aiming, and the ludicrously low ranges of weapons in Rifts also make the skeet analogy flawed since the 1mile altitude ability means that they are out of range of virtually anything except missile fire.

Closing speed means that while your making your inital assault jumps your racking up some HUGE strike penalties for your foe to hit you.

You can close from 'out of range' to 'I am shooting you' very quickly making surprise attacks quite viable

Radar systems are ubiquitous on vehicles and power armor... but not very well used elsewhere. Meaning that flying infantry vs ground infantry are going to be very unlikely to be detected before they start shooting.

Its late or I would think of some more reasons, but these are just the ones that came to me off the top of my head

And last of all... Unlike Schlock in Palladium you can make dodge rolls, or carry a MDC shield to parry with.

There is a reason that flying armor is ubiquitous to every major military power out there... in Rifts it is an amazingly effective weapon and there is almost no reason NOT to use it.

[kaid]

on the otherhand, flying infantry is a niche weapon for strategic/theater redeployment.. trying to use flight during a tactical battle has flaws, as schlock mercenary points out.

Given in rifts defensive capabilities of armor are pretty strong compared to weapon damage the extra mobility is still generally worth it. Just for the extra speed when encountering things like borgs or juicers or various monsters a normal person on foot is worse than a skeet they are stationary target. I would rather be a fast moving skeet than effectively immobile vs those threats.

[Hotrod]

The mobility is what sells it to me. A foot soldier in really good shape could maybe hump his gear 25 miles in a day if conditioned and trained for it. With agreeable terrain, a tank or APC could cover that in a half hour to an hour with troops loaded inside or on top, but rough terrain would slow or even stop them. Jet troops could cover that distance in 12 minutes and 30 seconds, and very little could stop them.

Let's say you have a battalion of 500 infantry in a ready, alert status. You could have some enemy get reported anywhere within 120 miles of their base, and within an hour those 500 troops could arrive there simultaneously, seize key terrain, and overwhelm the enemy with massed firepower. I can think of very little in Rifts Earth that could take more than a few seconds of 500 laser rifles concentrating their fire on a single target. Even if they're using basic NG-L5 laser rifles that do 3D6 damage, that's a median damage of 5250 M.D.C. per volley.

Cost would be 15 million for the jet packs, 8 million for NG-L5 rifles, and 17.5 million for putting all 500 in plastic armor. That's 40 million credits, the same price as the Iwo Jima amphibious IFV from Underseas, which only carries 10 troops, or two CS Mark V APCs, which could carry 40 troops total.

[slade2501]

The mobility is what sells it to me. A foot soldier in really good shape could maybe hump his gear 25 miles in a day if conditioned and trained for it. With agreeable terrain, a tank or APC could cover that in a half hour to an hour with troops loaded inside or on top, but rough terrain would slow or even stop them. Jet troops could cover that distance in 12 minutes and 30 seconds, and very little could stop them.

Let's say you have a battalion of 500 infantry in a ready, alert status. You could have some enemy get reported anywhere within 120 miles of their base, and within an hour those 500 troops could arrive there simultaneously, seize key terrain, and overwhelm the enemy with massed firepower. I can think of very little in Rifts Earth that could take more than a few seconds of 500 laser rifles concentrating their fire on a single target. Even if they're using basic NG-L5 laser rifles that do 3D6 damage, that's a median damage of 5250 M.D.C. per volley.

Cost would be 15 million for the jet packs, 8 million for NG-L5 rifles, and 17.5 million for putting all 500 in plastic armor. That's 40 million credits, the same price as the Iwo Jima amphibious IFV from Underseas, which only carries 10 troops, or two CS Mark V APCs, which could carry 40 troops total.

some excellent tactical thinking. thinking that gives the Coalition stomach ulcers. or that makes Brodkill and raiders think twice about assaulting the average size settlement. Historically, during WWII the average percentage of US population that served was just under 10%. In Japan, it was 30%. if we take a current average on Rifts Earth that 20% of any given settlement will perform as a security force/militia, then a town of 1000 people could see as high as 200 people armed and willing to fight. if even only 30 percent have decent mega-damage weapons and armor, that's still something around 65+ people well armed and ready. if its a rich settlement with good trade, a valuable resource that percentage is bound to go up. A large transient population ( a trade post) would have a higher percentage of armed individuals.

[kaid]

Also it should be noted a lot of the monster threats and even supernatural ones often do not have particularly long ranged attacks. Against something like a rampaging Trex one guy with a jetpack and enough ammo could take it down in basically total safety. It would take a while but with enough ammo he would never be in any danger. Being able to fly even at low altitudes is a game changer option.

[dragonfett]

Hell, when he runs out of ammo, he can fly back to a safe spot, reload, and return before the T-Rex has a chance to cover a fraction of the distance.

[Blue_Lion]

If you want to avoid the thermal issue and have the funds and access, then get a grav pack from Phase World (only 150,000 for an e-clip model or 550,000 for a ten year nuclear version) and fly at 200 mph (or mach 1 in space!).

Mach 1 is the speed of sound. There is no sound in space, so how does that work?

It has a set value for travel of non sound. it is about 760.5583392985 mph typing mach 1

[Blue_Lion]

on the otherhand, flying infantry is a niche weapon for strategic/theater redeployment.. trying to use flight during a tactical battle has flaws, as schlock mercenary points out.

The Skeet comment is cute...
...but in the world of Rifts it is pretty much irrelivent.
In the Schlock world most infantry weapons can one-shot anyone in most forms of armor. AND the flying armor in question was very low profile armor at that.
In the world of Rifts though?
In Rifts even medium EBA can survive a direct hit or two (or more) from the main gun of a heavy armor unit...

The rules for aiming, and the ludicrously low ranges of weapons in Rifts also make the skeet analogy flawed since the 1mile altitude ability means that they are out of range of virtually anything except missile fire.

Closing speed means that while your making your inital assault jumps your racking up some HUGE strike penalties for your foe to hit you.

You can close from 'out of range' to 'I am shooting you' very quickly making surprise attacks quite viable

Radar systems are ubiquitous on vehicles and power armor... but not very well used elsewhere. Meaning that flying infantry vs ground infantry are going to be very unlikely to be detected before they start shooting.

Its late or I would think of some more reasons, but these are just the ones that came to me off the top of my head

And last of all... Unlike Schlock in Palladium you can make dodge rolls, or carry a MDC shield to parry with.

There is a reason that flying armor is ubiquitous to every major military power out there... in Rifts it is an amazingly effective weapon and there is almost no reason NOT to use it.

Sure there are penalties for those you are attacking but they can compensate.(I believe i did the math one time aimed shots from a tank have bonuses greater than the penalties to shoot a samas approach.) You on the other hand are shooting wild taking your own huge penalties for shooting from a moving vehicle. A jet fighter or surface to air vehicles using mounted weapons are not shooting wild for moving. Once you land to use your weapons the target no longer has any penalties. So you would only win if you out number the heavy unit.

Also as you are larger than a goose you can be detected miles away by anyone with a radar unit. So PA and combat vehicles can not only detect your approach but engage you outside the range of most weapons carried by infantry.

Most ground infantry in rifts are mechanized and have access to combat vehicles as well as the common gear of radar. (Not sure why you think it is rare outside PA when it is gear listed in the main book.)

Now while you could close quickly to do battle with a heavy unit these blitz attacks could potentially have high casualty rates. It would take quite a while to witle down a heavy unit with wild shots 1 on 1 so for this to work you would need swarm tactics to win.

On dodging we have a rule in juicer uprising murderthon that dodging means no advance. This logically would apply outside the sport so if you dodge you may not advancing on the target to close.

Jet pack infantry are the airborne infantry of Rifts. High mobility high casualty rate infantry good for when you need a quick reaction force or out flank the enemy but bad as your main assault force during a large scale conflict.


Here is the draw back of using only jet pack infantry to deal with threats.
CS main body is seen 50 miles away you jump out all your forces to stop the main force. CS rangers and SF sneak in and assault your city with weakened defenders. Your jump troops likely took losses even if they did not engage do to CS vehicles out ranging them with missiles and robot weapons systems. You then must decide to finish the fight you committed your forces to or returning to defend your city and allow the CS main force to strike.

Most of the forces that field armies to wage war and use heavy gear tanks/apcs do not have to worry about the cost of such gear as they already have it. The cost only matters if you are building a new force.

Also there is a magical spell that can completely shut down air travel. So a magic using force can remove the advantage of speed from your jet pack troops.

Don't get me wrong I think jet packs are useful but against tech or magical using forces they are not a easy win system but as I said the rifts air born infantry.

Also pilot rolls may become a issue. You would need to roll to safely land all those jet packs to fight. So you are going to have a certain percent of your troops crash land and potentially suffer injures such as broken bones or sprains. As I understand it ground vehicles do not need to make rolls for normal operations and have safety features to reduce injures in a crash.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

on the otherhand, flying infantry is a niche weapon for strategic/theater redeployment.. trying to use flight during a tactical battle has flaws, as schlock mercenary points out.

The Skeet comment is cute...
...but in the world of Rifts it is pretty much irrelivent.
In the Schlock world most infantry weapons can one-shot anyone in most forms of armor. AND the flying armor in question was very low profile armor at that.
In the world of Rifts though?
In Rifts even medium EBA can survive a direct hit or two (or more) from the main gun of a heavy armor unit...

The rules for aiming, and the ludicrously low ranges of weapons in Rifts also make the skeet analogy flawed since the 1mile altitude ability means that they are out of range of virtually anything except missile fire.

Closing speed means that while your making your inital assault jumps your racking up some HUGE strike penalties for your foe to hit you.

You can close from 'out of range' to 'I am shooting you' very quickly making surprise attacks quite viable

Radar systems are ubiquitous on vehicles and power armor... but not very well used elsewhere. Meaning that flying infantry vs ground infantry are going to be very unlikely to be detected before they start shooting.

Its late or I would think of some more reasons, but these are just the ones that came to me off the top of my head

And last of all... Unlike Schlock in Palladium you can make dodge rolls, or carry a MDC shield to parry with.

There is a reason that flying armor is ubiquitous to every major military power out there... in Rifts it is an amazingly effective weapon and there is almost no reason NOT to use it.

Sure there are penalties for those you are attacking but they can compensate.(I believe i did the math one time aimed shots from a tank have bonuses greater than the penalties to shoot a samas approach.)

Even if you can make aimed shots with a tank (which is... debatable, but well just go with "you can" for the sake of the argument) - best you're going to get is about +5 to hit, maybe a bit more if the tank has good sensors. A SAM moving at max speed incurs a -6 to hit right off. And then you factor in his huge dodge bonus when flying, good luck with that. And you have to fire an Aimed shot - taking two attacks. You lose the action economy battle here pretty handily.

You on the other hand are shooting wild taking your own huge penalties for shooting from a moving vehicle.

.... thats open to some serious interpretation, as im not on or shooting from inside of a moving vehicle. *I* am moving. If a SAMAS wouldn't incur the penalties, then a guy with a jet pack wouldn't either. Before we get too much further, ill just that my personal opinion here is that the the stacking penalties/bonii for doing literally anything are stupid as all get out and if i were writing this system almost none of them would exist. We're just going on interpretations of the RAW, which are basically unplayable drek anyway.

A jet fighter or surface to air vehicles using mounted weapons are not shooting wild for moving.

Source? Doesn't say that anywhere i can see. In fact, RAW, two flying Power Armors are statistically unlikely to ever land a single shot on one another, as they are both shooting wild and have huge penalties to hit.

Once you land to use your weapons the target no longer has any penalties. So you would only win if you out number the heavy unit.

Which was the entire premise of the argument. Guys with jetpacks are cheap. For the cost of a single tank you can outfit an entire battalion of guys. And the example used guys with pitiful 2d6 MD Laser rifles, whereas for that same price id outfit them all with L-20s.

Also as you are larger than a goose you can be detected miles away by anyone with a radar unit.

Only if the Radar unit can score line of sight on you. If there is even the tiniest bit of terrain between you and them, Jetpacks can skim the ground at a low enough level that Radar can be mitigated fairly easily.

So PA and combat vehicles can not only detect your approach but engage you outside the range of most weapons carried by infantry.

Really depends i guess. I'd either arm these guys with L-20s (so once they DID get in range theyll melt you dead pretty fast) or i'd arm them all with JA-9s. might only be 2d6, but its got a 4000ft range.

Most ground infantry in rifts are mechanized and have access to combat vehicles as well as the common gear of radar. (Not sure why you think it is rare outside PA when it is gear listed in the main book.)

Now while you could close quickly to do battle with a heavy unit these blitz attacks could potentially have high casualty rates.

Not too likely since the tank/heavy unit is unlikely to last even a single round. Also, there's the question of if tanks can dodge (Juicer Uprising, under the Hyperion Juicer, implies that tanks cannot, as it gives the ability to "dodge in any vehicle, even those that cant normally dodge, like tanks" - paraphrased. Im not sure i agree with that interpretation (i see no reason a tank couldn't dodge) but it's there nonetheless).

It would take quite a while to witle down a heavy unit with wild shots 1 on 1 so for this to work you would need swarm tactics to win.

Which, again, was the entire premise.

On dodging we have a rule in juicer uprising murderthon that dodging means no advance. This logically would apply outside the sport so if you dodge you may not advancing on the target to close.

Your "logic" is absurdly flawed. Trying to say that a rule that applies to a VERY SPECIFIC sub-activity must apply to every general activity is not logical in any way.

Jet pack infantry are the airborne infantry of Rifts. High mobility high casualty rate infantry good for when you need a quick reaction force or out flank the enemy but bad as your main assault force during a large scale conflict.

Cyborgs can wear and use jetpacks, as an FYI.

And honestly.. given how cheap they are, every infantryman should have one. The gain in mobility alone makes it worthwhile. Even if it is just to reposition or retreat. Even if you never use it to fire a single shot from the air, just being able to lift off 5-6 feet and take off at 100mph is insanely good.

-insanely pro-CS "what if" snipped -

Most of the forces that field armies to wage war and use heavy gear tanks/apcs do not have to worry about the cost of such gear as they already have it. The cost only matters if you are building a new force.

No, the cost matters because you might have to rebuild your forces after you lose them. Pyrrhic victory and all. If an enemy sacrifices a force that cost them 70 million credits to field, and you lose vehicles totally hundreds of millions, you might have lost anyway. Because now you have no big vehicles and have to replace them somehow.

Also there is a magical spell that can completely shut down air travel.

Which spell is that, exactly?

Also pilot rolls may become a issue. You would need to roll to safely land all those jet packs to fight.

Source?

So you are going to have a certain percent of your troops crash land and potentially suffer injures such as broken bones or sprains. As I understand it ground vehicles do not need to make rolls for normal operations and have safety features to reduce injures in a crash.

NO Vehicles require rolls for normal operations (and "landing" is definitely routine for a jetpack). This isn't somehow magically limited to land vehicles only. Now, a landing under heavy fire, sure, might require a roll.

[Hotrod]

The rifles I mentioned (the L5) do 3D6, not 2D6. That nitpick aside, Colonel_Tetsuya's logic is sound.

[HarleeKnight]

How big are jetpacks in Rifts? I ask because based on the descriptions for them in the NG books, they are less like Mandalorian jetpacks and more like modern day jetpacks. Rather cumbersome and obvious. I haven't seen a picture of any except for the juicer ones in WB 10 and WB 11.

[dragonfett]

How big are jetpacks in Rifts? I ask because based on the descriptions for them in the NG books, they are less like Mandalorian jetpacks and more like modern day jetpacks. Rather cumbersome and obvious. I haven't seen a picture of any except for the juicer ones in WB 10 and WB 11.

Given the weights listed on the two most easily accessible ones (the Wilk's one from the RMB/RUE and the Falcon 300 from Sourcebook 1), I would wager not much larger than a large backpack.

[HarleeKnight]

How big are jetpacks in Rifts? I ask because based on the descriptions for them in the NG books, they are less like Mandalorian jetpacks and more like modern day jetpacks. Rather cumbersome and obvious. I haven't seen a picture of any except for the juicer ones in WB 10 and WB 11.

Given the weights listed on the two most easily accessible ones (the Wilk's one from the RMB/RUE and the Falcon 300 from Sourcebook 1), I would wager not much larger than a large backpack.

The jetpacks listed in NG2 are 2.4 ft. to 3.5 ft. long, the Wilk's and the Falcon 300 are both 3 ft. long... that is significantly longer than a large backpack. Unless by large backpack you meant one that back country hikers and campers use.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

How big are jetpacks in Rifts? I ask because based on the descriptions for them in the NG books, they are less like Mandalorian jetpacks and more like modern day jetpacks. Rather cumbersome and obvious. I haven't seen a picture of any except for the juicer ones in WB 10 and WB 11.

No pictures that i can remember off the top of my head of the actual jetpacks, but in WB5, you can see the Terrain Hopper's jet-pack, and it's not very big... and flies at 100mph or so. So they aren't much bigger than that i'd say.

3ft long really isn't that big. Im tallish (6'2) and 3ft would be about at my waist (a portion of the pack almost assuredly sticks up behind the head, for air intakes if nothing else.

Its no larger than the current packs US Army Infantrymen wear but is SUBSTANTIALLY lighter (about half the weight).

[Shark_Force]

i dunno. i wouldn't expect *every* soldier to have one. i do think it makes sense to have them as special forces in many militaries (or even just as an elite squad of troops if you're talking about a defense force protecting just one or two cities).

it's great to have it around, but so long as budget is a concern, i doubt most people will invest in it for every single soldier. especially when you can buy something like a mountaineer for the cost of 2 jetpacks, convert the cargo area to seating (i'd expect you could fit at least an additional 8 soldiers, maybe more depending on how bulky their gear is) and you'd still have the non-flight utility.

just for perspective, presuming the mountaineer can carry 12 soldiers plus a driver and comparing it to a squad of 12 jetpack troopers with otherwise identical gear:

with plastic man armour, an L-20 each (it's an exceptionally cost-efficient weapon with exceptional availability), 1 extra e-clip (we're looking at places without lots of money here, they might be interested in raids but they're not going to typically be prepared for a full-scale war) and 5,000 credits worth of "unspecified" extra stuff per soldier (some will have medical gear, or better sensors, or a few grenades/fusion blocks, or an upgraded gun, a better radio, etc and we'll just presume it averages out to around 5k per soldier)

for a unit of 12 jetpack troops, you're looking at 1,152,000 credits. per-soldier cost of 96,000.
for 12 soldiers plus a mountaineer and driver (same gear for the sake of argument), you're looking at 824,000 credits. per-soldier cost of about 63,400 credits.

you can field roughly 50% more soldiers for the same cost if you put them in a simple MDC vehicle that requires simpler skills and tools to repair (and we really shouldn't ignore that, you can repair a mountaineer with automotive engineering, but it's gonna be aircraft engineering to repair jetpacks... one is a secondary skill, the other is not), provides limited protection on the way in, and offers similar mobility unless flight is required.

as a small bonus, the mountaineer also transports itself and all their gear, while if the jetpack troops need to walk, they need to haul their own gear plus a 45 pound jetpack. and, since they have a jetpack, they probably can't use a regular backpack to carry their regular gear.

as an additional small bonus, the electric engine for the mountaineer is the least expensive option and is comparatively quiet (not really silent, and even if it was you're still driving a 6 ton tricycle through the wilderness and i have a hard time believing *that* is silent) while the jetpacks for that price need to be gasoline powered, and are thus probably extremely loud (and tbh i expect even an electric jetpack would be quite loud, because generating enough thrust to propel what amounts to a brick in terms of aerodynamics is never going to be quiet).

(the obvious solution is to have a squad of jetpack troops with a mountaineer to transport them, but you'll lose some troop space for the jetpacks so i'd assume 1 mountaineer per 8 or 9 soldiers at best... and of course, that's just an added expense onto the already more expensive option).

so, yeah, a decent-sized army on a budget (which will be most armies) will probably have some jetpacks. but most of them will simply extend the principle of quantity over quality even further and have mostly discount mechanized infantry rather than discount flying power armour (but again, having *some* soldiers with discount flying power armour is still a good idea, so i'd expect anyone who doesn't have money to burn on real flying power armour but is still serious about being prepared for combat will have *some* of their troops kitted out with some form of flight capabilities, whether that be jetpacks or skycycles or a few spitfires with MDC plating and ramjet rounds).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

There is apparently an illustration of a Jetpack on the cover of Dino Swamp

[ShadowLogan]

How big are jetpacks in Rifts? I ask because based on the descriptions for them in the NG books, they are less like Mandalorian jetpacks and more like modern day jetpacks. Rather cumbersome and obvious. I haven't seen a picture of any except for the juicer ones in WB 10 and WB 11.

No pictures that i can remember off the top of my head of the actual jetpacks, but in WB5, you can see the Terrain Hopper's jet-pack, and it's not very big... and flies at 100mph or so. So they aren't much bigger than that i'd say.

3ft long really isn't that big. Im tallish (6'2) and 3ft would be about at my waist (a portion of the pack almost assuredly sticks up behind the head, for air intakes if nothing else.

Its no larger than the current packs US Army Infantrymen wear but is SUBSTANTIALLY lighter (about half the weight).

First Edition Robotech RPG Book4 (and 2E Masters Saga SB) has a drawing of a Jetpack attached to a body armored human (along with a rocket pack). It's not Rifts, but it probably gives us an idea on what they might be thinking in terms of size.

Phase World and Naruni Wave 2 Dimension Books also both have Contra Grav packs illustrated, so size wise I would suspect they would be similar to jet packs (based on listed measurements).

WB5 also suggests the Falcon might be smallish and unnoticeable (like the DS cover) as it was designed for the Explorer armor, which is illustrated but we don't know if the Falcon is equipped or not to that suit. If it is it will be like the contra grav packs in Phaseworld, if it isn't then it would be noticeable like DS cover.

[kaid]

How big are jetpacks in Rifts? I ask because based on the descriptions for them in the NG books, they are less like Mandalorian jetpacks and more like modern day jetpacks. Rather cumbersome and obvious. I haven't seen a picture of any except for the juicer ones in WB 10 and WB 11.

No pictures that i can remember off the top of my head of the actual jetpacks, but in WB5, you can see the Terrain Hopper's jet-pack, and it's not very big... and flies at 100mph or so. So they aren't much bigger than that i'd say.

3ft long really isn't that big. Im tallish (6'2) and 3ft would be about at my waist (a portion of the pack almost assuredly sticks up behind the head, for air intakes if nothing else.

Its no larger than the current packs US Army Infantrymen wear but is SUBSTANTIALLY lighter (about half the weight).

If you look at the wild coyote jet pack in NG2 that is one designed to be used with some light power armor and is still pretty small and compact so I would assume most of the normal jet packs are not a lot bigger than that if at all.

[slade2501]

i dunno. i wouldn't expect *every* soldier to have one. i do think it makes sense to have them as special forces in many militaries (or even just as an elite squad of troops if you're talking about a defense force protecting just one or two cities).

it's great to have it around, but so long as budget is a concern, i doubt most people will invest in it for every single soldier. especially when you can buy something like a mountaineer for the cost of 2 jetpacks, convert the cargo area to seating (i'd expect you could fit at least an additional 8 soldiers, maybe more depending on how bulky their gear is) and you'd still have the non-flight utility.

just for perspective, presuming the mountaineer can carry 12 soldiers plus a driver and comparing it to a squad of 12 jetpack troopers with otherwise identical gear:

with plastic man armour, an L-20 each (it's an exceptionally cost-efficient weapon with exceptional availability), 1 extra e-clip (we're looking at places without lots of money here, they might be interested in raids but they're not going to typically be prepared for a full-scale war) and 5,000 credits worth of "unspecified" extra stuff per soldier (some will have medical gear, or better sensors, or a few grenades/fusion blocks, or an upgraded gun, a better radio, etc and we'll just presume it averages out to around 5k per soldier)

for a unit of 12 jetpack troops, you're looking at 1,152,000 credits. per-soldier cost of 96,000.
for 12 soldiers plus a mountaineer and driver (same gear for the sake of argument), you're looking at 824,000 credits. per-soldier cost of about 63,400 credits.

you can field roughly 50% more soldiers for the same cost if you put them in a simple MDC vehicle that requires simpler skills and tools to repair (and we really shouldn't ignore that, you can repair a mountaineer with automotive engineering, but it's gonna be aircraft engineering to repair jetpacks... one is a secondary skill, the other is not), provides limited protection on the way in, and offers similar mobility unless flight is required.

as a small bonus, the mountaineer also transports itself and all their gear, while if the jetpack troops need to walk, they need to haul their own gear plus a 45 pound jetpack. and, since they have a jetpack, they probably can't use a regular backpack to carry their regular gear.

as an additional small bonus, the electric engine for the mountaineer is the least expensive option and is comparatively quiet (not really silent, and even if it was you're still driving a 6 ton tricycle through the wilderness and i have a hard time believing *that* is silent) while the jetpacks for that price need to be gasoline powered, and are thus probably extremely loud (and tbh i expect even an electric jetpack would be quite loud, because generating enough thrust to propel what amounts to a brick in terms of aerodynamics is never going to be quiet).

(the obvious solution is to have a squad of jetpack troops with a mountaineer to transport them, but you'll lose some troop space for the jetpacks so i'd assume 1 mountaineer per 8 or 9 soldiers at best... and of course, that's just an added expense onto the already more expensive option).

so, yeah, a decent-sized army on a budget (which will be most armies) will probably have some jetpacks. but most of them will simply extend the principle of quantity over quality even further and have mostly discount mechanized infantry rather than discount flying power armour (but again, having *some* soldiers with discount flying power armour is still a good idea, so i'd expect anyone who doesn't have money to burn on real flying power armour but is still serious about being prepared for combat will have *some* of their troops kitted out with some form of flight capabilities, whether that be jetpacks or skycycles or a few spitfires with MDC plating and ramjet rounds).

I have found that trying to apply any standard of "what size settlement has means what equipment/money" simply does not work in this game. Just looking at it would give an economist fits. Simply put, make up an excuse why the whole town would have jetpacks. maybe they are a failed air-side show that settled down and formed a town. Maybe there is a famous land mark or character who is a dare-devil and has attracted like minded crazy people? maybe the ground is treacherous, or a special type of ground dwelling monster makes flying more practical (like Dune, eh?) Anyone who picks too hard at this game will peel back the layers way too easy. I mean we have vampires, giant robots and dragons; a town full of jetpack flyers is suddenly too crazy?

[Pepsi Jedi]

By jove, jetpacks and hoverbikes are sorely underrated. Jetpacks are a terrible way to go cross country or for long distance travel, but in the short term they offer incredible advantages.
I mean, just think about it. for 50,000 credits you can turn a human being into a 120 mile per hour 800 mile range unit. With up to a mile flight ceiling. at 1 mile, the average human would never even see or hear a human sized object traveling at that speed. even radar would have a hard time tracking that as a human sized object has VERY little radar return.

then consider the tactical aspects. 120 mph is a very fast escape speed. You could quickly outrun any kind of humanoid on foot or even most ground vehicles. flying into any kind of cloud cover would make you invisible. you could easily maneuver behind cover to block enemy fire.

The disadvantages of jetpacks: low cargo, needs fuel (the nuclear option is crazy expensive). Huge heat signature (shows right up on thermal vision).

Its the same with hoverbikes, except they need to be mounted and have more cargo space.

While jet packs surely have their place and function there's some assumptions going on here that need to be addressed.

Yes short term jet packs add to infantry mobiltiy incredibly. Effectivly turning them into "Mobile Infantry" From Starship Troopers (The book, not the movie.) Which is great.

BUT.... You're sayintg that at a mile the average human would never see someone in a jet pack... er... yeah they would. You can see jet liners waaaay on up there. You gotta remember. More or less there's not all that much in the sky to hide behind and sound travels. A jet pack (Rifts style. not talking hyper dimensional anti grav packs from Phase world) Still use directed thrust to move. Takes alot of thrust to move 200lbs to 300lbs of person up and around. They're gonna roar. (Unless they're specificly designed not to. We DO have some stealtth ones. Having stealth ones tells us the default... is not stealthy)

So you could usually see someone up there zipping around. Just like you can look up and... you know... see birds. Small fractions of the size of an armor laden human.

As for Radar.. Nope. Radar can track birds. They generally cut down the sensitivity to try and avoid such but a 200-300lbs object up and flying around is not hard to track. And you also have to remember. that as technology advanced, it advanced universally. The guys on Rifts earth aren't using Radar from the 50s in their nuclear powered, robots, jets, or power armor. In theory the radar advanced at the same time and very well can track someone traveling though the wide open sky. They have no problem tracking power armors which are only a bit bigger in some cases. So.... that assaumption is down too. Rifts lvl radar would track you just fine. Your armor will give amazing radar return.

Your points about out running ground troops is apt, but you can't out run lasers. They can still shoot you as you book it (To the extent of range) Alot of GMs (And players) seem to fail to realize that combat doesn't just end when the PC's say so. The bad guys very well _CAN_ Shoot you in the back.

As for the cloud cover...... You might want to think twice about that. Jet packs have no inturnal nav. You're basicly flying by eye.

In clouds you'd have no visability. 100mph into a solid object is a real dumb way to die. The number of pilots that get turned around or upside down in clouds is staggering. and they have horizons and what not that they can look right at, and they STILL get screwed up. Flying through a cloud would be dangerous for someone with no instrumentation. Jet packs don't come with their own radar or anything. You'd literally be flying blind. Have no idea where the top of the cloud was till you breached it, or the bottom. or what else might be in there with you. You might be able to fly up there and effectivly hovor (If your pack supports it) or fly in a tight circle... but.. other than 'hiding' it's not going to do much. and people will still be able to hear you and take shots at you if you're in range. Or fire off missles, etc etc etc.

Jet packs can have many tactical applications for sure and surely have their uses. Used as jump packs they add mobility that infantry would cry for. That said they're not ''cheep I win buttons" on a modern battle field. A suit of power armor is going to do very bad things to them. Very quickly.

(( and for the record guys a 3 foot backpack is BIG. it's not jus ta 3 foot stick down your spine from your head to your but. It's going to be wide too. And that's a big pack. Not 'impossible to carry' but I think some people are expecting just a tiny 8L day pack type thing in their head, when 3 feet is more the sort of big bricks you see on the back of astronauts and stuff.

Some of the bigger AMU's are 4 feet or so but this one is about three
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file ... 5_full.jpg

So... that's the sort of unit size you're talking. Not exactly the sort of thing you wear around every day or while tooling on a skycycle.

[glitterboy2098]

clouds aren't a factor by the way.. jet pack flight tops out at 1,000 feet in altitude. clouds don't usually show up until above about 4,000 feet. so clouds are a concern for flying PA and aircraft, but not jet packs.

and as far as size.. real world examples include the Bell Aerosystems "Jet Belt" which used the Turbine engine off a tomahawk cruiser missile
http://flatrock.org.nz/static/frontpage ... t_belt.jpg
http://rocketbelts.americanrocketman.co ... T_BELT.jpg
http://rocketbelts.americanrocketman.co ... _FLYER.jpg

a more modern take on the same concept is the JB-9
https://img.newatlas.com/jetpack-aviati ... ack-14.jpg
https://img.newatlas.com/jetpack-aviati ... ack-20.jpg
https://img.newatlas.com/jetpack-aviati ... ack-22.jpg
https://newatlas.com/jetpack-aviation-n ... ght/40286/

while the rifts packs are clearly more advanced in the technology used and have better performance (able to fly faster, longer, and a bit higher), size wise they are about the same.

[kaid]

The main issue of the modern day jet belts is not functionality or reliability it is simply fuel supply. On rifts clearly high energy power generation even from gas powered engines has been solved. Then you also have options of electric/solid ox or if you are rich and fancy nuke powered.

[eliakon]

Just to put the Jet Pack size into perspective.
A full size air tank for Scuba runs between 19" and 28.8" and weighs~20-23 pounds. Ad in the rest of the assembly on the top and you have a pretty decent approximation of a Rifts Jet Pack.
So... is it going to be bulky? Yeah. Is it going to be a bit awkward? Probably. Is it going to be crippling? No.
I had no problem at all with mobility in Scuba gear unless I had my fins on, and once under water the gear was basically irrelevant... which is probably how a Jet Pack will be. In flight it is almost totally irrelevant, and before then it is just wee bit cumbersome but not really a major issue.


The line of sight issue that keeps being brought up is partially irrelevant though.
The idea is not to fly in like superman and hope to surprise your foes (usually). The idea is to get close on the ground using cover and THEN make the last leg of the assault in a rapid aerial strike allowing you to go from 'to far away' to 'in their face' in a very short time or to go from 'hunkered down in the foxholes/behind the walls' of your defensive position waiting out the shelling to 'shooting up the opposition' in an eye blink
Basically the idea is to allow you to cover the killing ground that separates infantry weapons from non-infantry weapons fast enough that you are not giving the enemy several turns of unreturned fire to mow you down. And if the enemy is not aware of the tactic and has no plans for it... well it will be a nasty, nasty surprise to most mechanized units to suddenly find out that infantry are suddenly viable again.

And frankly even if you DO go for full on air-mobile... your STILL at a massive advantage here.
That is because until you are within canon range (usually between 1800' and 4000') then the only weapon that can be used to attack you is a missile. And that gives you the advantage there. Because the enemy has to pick to either use 4+ missiles to kill one infantry solider OR they have to allow the soldiers a chance to dodge the missiles. Not to mention shoot downs... which when you have a platoon of infantry firing on the missile means that the success rate goes way up. At which point the advantage of using jet-pack infantry over standard Air-Cav becomes apparent. They can both the seen, both be shot at... but the infantry is not clustered in vulnerable helicopters (or any other cluster-kill target) which means that they have to be killed in singletons... and since the entire premise here is that an Air-Infantry (AI from here on) unit is going to be much, much larger than the opposition force (due to the cost differential) you can afford to take some casualties on the way in... after all, in an assault your going to take some no matter what. But in this way you lower the casualties significantly AND you make it so that you loose less expensive hardware AND for bonus points the Jet-Pack skill isn't restricted like the Power Armor skills are, meaning that you have a wider option of who you can include in your AI unit.

The other thing to consider is that this is an upgrade to infantry. That means that you already have infantry and use them, you are just making them far more effective and far more likely to survive. This doesnt mean that Power Armor or vehicles will become obsolete. What it does render obsolete is that the previously held paradigm that infantry are totally outclassed by PA, vehicles and robots. It also means that the budget for a military does not have to be spend on pricey units, but instead can be spread around to upgrade many lighter units into effective, useful, lethal units. Basically it ads more options to the tactical mix

[Pepsi Jedi]

clouds aren't a factor by the way.. jet pack flight tops out at 1,000 feet in altitude. clouds don't usually show up until above about 4,000 feet. so clouds are a concern for flying PA and aircraft, but not jet packs.

and as far as size.. real world examples include the Bell Aerosystems "Jet Belt" which used the Turbine engine off a tomahawk cruiser missile
http://flatrock.org.nz/static/frontpage ... t_belt.jpg
http://rocketbelts.americanrocketman.co ... T_BELT.jpg
http://rocketbelts.americanrocketman.co ... _FLYER.jpg

a more modern take on the same concept is the JB-9
https://img.newatlas.com/jetpack-aviati ... ack-14.jpg
https://img.newatlas.com/jetpack-aviati ... ack-20.jpg
https://img.newatlas.com/jetpack-aviati ... ack-22.jpg
https://newatlas.com/jetpack-aviation-n ... ght/40286/

while the rifts packs are clearly more advanced in the technology used and have better performance (able to fly faster, longer, and a bit higher), size wise they are about the same.

Well some clouds get low, but I was more addressing the problems from the OP vs actually checking up. The OP said they had a ceiling of a mille not 1000ft

[Pepsi Jedi]

Just to put the Jet Pack size into perspective.
A full size air tank for Scuba runs between 19" and 28.8" and weighs~20-23 pounds. Ad in the rest of the assembly on the top and you have a pretty decent approximation of a Rifts Jet Pack.

So 28" is a good bit shy of three feet... and it's doubful that a machine built to liftr 200 to 300lbs of person off the ground is hollow or contains 'gas' inside. No it's not going to be a good approximation of a rifts jet pack. The Jet pack would be wider (Unless you're just invisioning a cylenderical rocket. lol) and bulkier... as a scuba tank holds.. you know.. gas. and a Jet pack would be at best, metal and ceramics.

So... is it going to be bulky? Yeah. Is it going to be a bit awkward? Probably. Is it going to be crippling? No.

"Awkward" and "Crippeling' mean different things, "Sitting on a boat before you drop in" and "Running in combat, with 40 or 50lbs on your back. It's why modern combat packs have quick release buckles. You slap them up and drop the massive pack when lead starts flying around.

I had no problem at all with mobility in Scuba gear unless I had my fins on,

You don't walk down the street with it on. You sit on the edge of a boat. So no. sitting still waiting to get to the dive site it's not too terrible, but you're not in combat. You're not walking down the street. Or even through a book store. It's pretty limiting and yes affects your mobility a good deal to have scuba gear on.

and once under water the gear was basically irrelevant... which is probably how a Jet Pack will be.

Seriously? You understand the water works to function as a low gravity environment in that situation. It's why Nasa has huuuge water tanks to train astronauts in. A situation that jetpacks will not have? Infact the inverse is likely true. You're being 'lifted' by the pack. Gravity is pulling you down. The faster you go the more wind resistance you will feel and thus feel 'heavier' in the straps. Not lighter.

In flight it is almost totally irrelevant, and before then it is just wee bit cumbersome but not really a major issue.

I disagree. Running around with a 40 or 50lbs Three foot by two foot hunk of metal and machinery on your back is very likely to be a major issue. Try running up stairs with a bag that size on your back and laoded wwith that much weight. Could you do it? Maybe. (Not guarenteed) but it's going to be a hella more than 'just a wee bit cumbersome' and yes a major issue for anything other than sitting still or walking at a relaxed pace.

The line of sight issue that keeps being brought up is partially irrelevant though.
The idea is not to fly in like superman and hope to surprise your foes (usually).

While I would personally agree with you, the OP had it stated exactly like that. Flying high in the sky and playing in the clouds.

The idea is to get close on the ground using cover and THEN make the last leg of the assault in a rapid aerial strike allowing you to go from 'to far away' to 'in their face' in a very short time or to go from 'hunkered down in the foxholes/behind the walls' of your defensive position waiting out the shelling to 'shooting up the opposition' in an eye blink
Basically the idea is to allow you to cover the killing ground that separates infantry weapons from non-infantry weapons fast enough that you are not giving the enemy several turns of unreturned fire to mow you down. And if the enemy is not aware of the tactic and has no plans for it... well it will be a nasty, nasty surprise to most mechanized units to suddenly find out that infantry are suddenly viable again.

In theory yes. Which is why I mentioned using them like jump jets from SST. Thing is, lateral movement at speed at ground level opens up other problems. Speederbike+Big tree type problems. Humans with out a vehicle suddenly flying laterally at ground level at 100mph is going to be.... challenging. lol You're going to want a little bit of height to prevent.. a fence post or something from ripping you in half.

And frankly even if you DO go for full on air-mobile... your STILL at a massive advantage here.
That is because until you are within canon range (usually between 1800' and 4000') then the only weapon that can be used to attack you is a missile.

Goes both ways. Jet packs on infantry, would put the person in the jet pack under the same restraints. I.E. he has to come into range to shoot too.

And that gives you the advantage there. Because the enemy has to pick to either use 4+ missiles to kill one infantry solider OR they have to allow the soldiers a chance to dodge the missiles. Not to mention shoot downs... which when you have a platoon of infantry firing on the missile means that the success rate goes way up. At which point the advantage of using jet-pack infantry over standard Air-Cav becomes apparent. They can both the seen, both be shot at... but the infantry is not clustered in vulnerable helicopters (or any other cluster-kill target) which means that they have to be killed in singletons... and since the entire premise here is that an Air-Infantry (AI from here on) unit is going to be much, much larger than the opposition force (due to the cost differential) you can afford to take some casualties on the way in... after all, in an assault your going to take some no matter what. But in this way you lower the casualties significantly AND you make it so that you loose less expensive hardware AND for bonus points the Jet-Pack skill isn't restricted like the Power Armor skills are, meaning that you have a wider option of who you can include in your AI unit.

This only works if you hand wave the cost of the jet packs. They're not exactly 'cheep'. And are much more easily destroyed than heavier armed vehicles. Yes they have some advantages but you're talking about outfitting a number of people with them and they're not pocket change. It would factor in to how much you're willing to pay for your lowest ranking troops.

A unit or platoon of special forces jet pack troopers. sure. Every rank and file farm boy on the line? naa. That kid's armor and rifle is worth more than his life. You're not slapping Jet packs on every one on top of that too.

The other thing to consider is that this is an upgrade to infantry. That means that you already have infantry and use them, you are just making them far more effective and far more likely to survive. This doesnt mean that Power Armor or vehicles will become obsolete. What it does render obsolete is that the previously held paradigm that infantry are totally outclassed by PA, vehicles and robots. It also means that the budget for a military does not have to be spend on pricey units, but instead can be spread around to upgrade many lighter units into effective, useful, lethal units. Basically it ads more options to the tactical mix

That's always been a thing in war. "More cheaper troops vs fewer better ones" In this case you might be able to afford more infantry with jet packs but even then it doesn't make them a guy in a Super Samus. There's things that power armor do that an infantry troop in jetpack typically can't.

It would be up to the command and commander to decide which would be more useful. Sure an infantry troop able to suddenly jump terrain is a huge advantage over one that can't.. but you put these guys up there with their limited armament (Standard infantry rifles and 3 eclips) Vs a flying power armor and the PA is going to chew them up and spit them out. It'll typically dance circles around the slower moving unit and pound it with all the bonuses that the PA will have. (Sensors, radar, bonuses, heavier weapons, some with unlimited ammo, speed etc)

It would be like.. a guy in a Jet pack vs some guys on the ground with out it. Yes there's an advantage there, but there's always a bigger fish. For your jet pack troop to shoot at those ground troops he has to get in range of the ground troops shooting back (Likely from cover) as they're effectivly carrying the same weapons, or the jet pack trooper even carrying lighter ones due to weight restrictions the guys on the ground don't have. The guys on the ground have the bonus of entrenchment and cover that the guy in the sky doesn't.(Theguy in the sky has speed, that the ground doesn't)

Typically it's easy to go "Well jet pack infantry just beats the pants off normal infantry" but it would need to be a cost benifits break down.

If you can field 50 ground troops

Or 20 guys with Jet packs...

You gotta do the math.

[Hotrod]

Here's my take on the math. I'll consider three cases.

The first is a nation that is going for swarm tactics with the cheapest troops possible.
Cost of an L5, the cheapest laser rifle in RUE: 16,000 credits.
Cost of Plastic Man armor, the cheapest environmental armor in RUE: 18k
Cost of a Falcon 300 jet pack's cheapest variant: 30,000.
Total: 64,000 credits. The cheapo airmobile soldier is a little less than twice as pricey as one without the jet pack. This, however ignores e-clips, grenades, and other equipment. With that kind of extra gear in, I'd estimate the extra cost of a jet pack to be around 30%. Considering the mobility benefit, I'd say it's worth it

The second case is for mid-tier troops who use C.S. armor (Larson's Brigade or an actual C.S. community) and higher-damage weapons to be more effective as shock troops:
Cost of a basic, classic Dead Boy heavy armor suit: 40,000 or 50,000 depending on whether you use RUE or GMG. I'll guess 45,000.
Cost for the C-27 old-style plasma rifle: 32,000
With the jetpack, that comes to 107,000 with a jetpack, or 77,000 without one. With canisters that cost 10,000 a pop, that probably drives up the cost of both, which would make the jet pack soldier around 20% more expensive than a soldier without.

Now I'll consider a soldier with the priciest non-CS gear in RUE.
Crusader body armor costs about 55,000 per suit.
The JA-11 rifle is the most expensive energy rifle in RUE at 40,000 per rifle.
That comes out to 95,000 without a jet pack, and 125,000 with one. With ammo and other equipment, this would probably make equipping a jet pack soldier somewhere around 20% more expensive than equipping a soldier without one.

I'd say that having this capability would be worth it in all three cases for units that do anything other than static defense or indoor security. I wouldn't require such troops to wear and use them all the time, but I'd keep them handy and ready to go.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm not digging into the numbers and for the sake of debate, assume they're correct.

I can tell you that "Twice as much for a troop with a jet pack, rather than one with out" (Your first numbers) Would stop the discussion in it's tracks for 95% of groups out there.

Even dropping it down to 30% more expensive is going to stop most. You're looking at it as a single troop cost, but noone fields just one troop. At 30% less, you're still looking at fielding 2out of 3 soldiers and that adds up (Or takes off) Fast. The "BIG" Armies could look at units of these things, but across the board, you're saying they would pay out 30-50% more for jet pack troops and I just don't see the cost out weighing the numbers.

Small unit tactics. Sure. Massive elements. No.